I Am Her | #140

Summary

Secondhand Therapy | Ep. 140: "I Am Her"

Podcast Overview In this episode of Secondhand Therapy, hosts Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone dive deep into vulnerability, control, and the difficult emotions that surface as they process grief and personal growth. Louie reads a listener’s poignant postcard about emotional expression; Michael reflects on his recent therapy assignment—writing an unsent letter to his late mother. Together, the two friends explore family dynamics, the struggle to accept happiness, masculinity, control, and the complicated legacy of parental influence, all with their signature blend of raw honesty and comedic banter.

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Main Topics and Themes

• Listener Mail: Emotional Expression & "Emotional Veganism"
• The Struggle to Accept Contentment and Happiness
• Returning to School: Fulfillment Through Learning
• Therapy Homework: Writing a Letter to a Deceased Parent
• Parent-Child Dynamics and Control
• The Search for Authenticity and Letting Go of People-Pleasing
• Processing Grief, Anger, and The Limits of Empathy
• Legacy, Change, and the Difficulty of Unlearning

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Listener Postcard: The Value of Emotional Expression

Timestamp: 10:15 - 12:45

• Louie reads a thoughtful postcard from listener Haley in Portugal, responding to a previous episode’s question: “Why do they need to know what I’m feeling? What does that do for anybody?”
• Haley compares emotional restraint to “emotional veganism,” arguing that we’re evolutionarily wired for emotional expression as a social survival tool.

Notable Quote:

"It sounds like you’ve been a bit of an emotional vegan. The sloppy, meaty expression of emotion may not look appetizing now, but... your body will welcome the change."
— Haley’s postcard read by Louie (11:29)

• The analogy sparks a discussion on why people suppress emotion, whether out of habit, self-protection, or misguided ideas about strength and masculinity.
• Michael riffs, “That’s a T-shirt! Emotional vegan, yeah man.” (12:34)
• The hosts connect this to their own struggles: Louie sometimes feels content rather than “happy,” while Michael wonders if embracing more emotion could help him too.

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2. The Nature of Happiness, Contentment, and Fulfillment

Timestamp: 16:30 - 20:30

• Michael reflects on “peaks and valleys” of mood, and how fleeting happiness feels like a rare peak rather than a sustainable baseline.
• Louie emphasizes contentment: “I don’t think happiness... can be a baseline thing. I think content is the baseline.” (19:26)
• Discussion of fulfillment through connection, service, and trying new things. Michael shares recent joy from participating in Big Brothers Big Sisters and bowling.
• Both men note the fragility of these moments and the anxiety that good times can “wear off,” fueling cycles of sadness or self-sabotage.

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3. The Power of Learning New Skills

Timestamp: 22:30 - 32:30

• Louie announces he’s returning to school to take auto mechanics and ceramics classes for enrichment, not career advancement.
• Michael and Louie joke about being “the old guy” on campus and Louie’s anxiety about fitting in, but also the opportunity to “be more present” and find new fulfillment.
• Michael expresses wanting to take cooking classes but has struggled with follow-through, comparing it to hitting “speed bumps” and accountability.

Notable Quote:

“I think it’s gotta be good for you to just learn something new just for the sake. Learning, I think helps your brain work better.” — Louie (30:57)

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4. Therapy Homework: Writing the Letter

Timestamp: 40:27 - 68:44

• Michael’s recent therapy assignment was to write a letter to his late mother. He describes the difficulty, the emotions uncovered, and having to read it in session.
• The process helped him uncover suppressed anger—not just toward his mother, but himself.
• He shares how his mother would intentionally hide her struggles (sickness, pain) from him “to protect” Michael, leading to him feeling isolated and robbed of a chance to support her or say goodbye.
• Louie points out Michael does the same thing, and Michael has a moment of in-episode self-realization: “Yeah… Didn’t like that.” (47:34)

Notable Quote:

“You’d rather hurt alone than say you’re hurting...Yeah.” — Michael (55:07)

• Michael details further how his mother’s need for control—comments on his looks, pressuring him to shave his beard—continued into adulthood and shaped his drive to earn love through people-pleasing.
• Louie reframes Michael’s therapist’s perspective, suggesting that by hiding her struggles, Michael’s mother was acting out of self-protection, not just to protect him.
  • Michael resists giving her a “pass”—he wants his anger to be valid.

Notable Quote:

“I can’t be mad at them because, oh, look what they’re going through or this or that. And it just washes away my anger. I want to be mad.” — Michael (52:36)

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5. Legacy, Guilt, and The Limits of Change

Timestamp: 61:20 – End

• Michael grapples with how much of his patterns were inherited or absorbed from his mother—especially the belief that love must be earned by pleasing others.
• The pair discuss if it’s possible to help someone “unlearn” these patterns if they’re not ready to change. Michael believes his mother “wanted change, she just didn’t know how.”
• With tenderness and sadness, Michael reflects on moving past anger, mourning the parent he couldn’t help, and assigning himself a new round of “anger homework.”

Notable Quote:

“My mother and I are ruled by the same thing, which is fear... Sometimes I fight fear and I win. Sometimes I fight fear and I lose. My mother wouldn’t even fight it.” — Michael (67:15)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Parenting & Control:
  "Your mom’s still using love to get you to do certain things as an adult. That’s rough." — Louie (58:17)

• On Joy Without Guilt:
  “[My mother would say] ‘Must be nice to get postcards like that’. So does my mother want me to be happy?… If I’m happy and I’m doing all these things without her, ‘must be nice.’” — Michael (65:30)

• On The Work of Healing:
  “Anger is productive. Turns out.” — Michael (67:51)

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Episode Structure At-A-Glance

| Time | Topic / Segment | |:----------|:------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:39 | Lighthearted banter, disclaimers | | 10:12 | Listener postcard: Emotional expression & “emotional veganism” | | 16:30 | Discussing contentment, happiness, and fulfillment | | 22:30 | Returning to school, seeking fulfillment through learning | | 40:27 | Therapy letter assignment, anger at mother, control and trust dynamics | | 61:20 | Further unpacking mother’s need for control, people-pleasing, and Michael’s realizations | | 67:00 | Anger as a productive force, next therapy steps |

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Tone and Language

Louie and Michael weave humor, sarcasm, dark comedy, and open-hearted vulnerability throughout the episode. Their self-awareness, candid admissions (“I am just a man. And I really hope I don’t try to be flirting...” (34:16)), and willingness to make jokes at their own expense (and each other’s) make the heavy themes feel accessible and relatable, even as they dig deep into topics that are often painful or taboo.

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Final Thoughts

This episode exemplifies Secondhand Therapy at its sharpest—messy, honest, and willing to sit in the discomfort of unresolved family history. By sharing the ongoing work of healing, the hosts invite listeners to reflect on their own patterns and the complicated love stories coded into every family.

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For ad-free episodes and bonus content, visit:
patreon.com/secondhandtherapypod

For merch:
secondhandtherapypod.com

Louie’s new book:
velvettigerbooks.com

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello, my little bear cubs and welcome back. Sht.

[A]

Heads.

[B]

That's. It's an.

[A]

I don't know if I'm on board with this or not.

[B]

With heads? Yeah. Why?

[A]

I think it needs to be positive.

[B]

It is Secondhand therapy.

[A]

Heads. Heads.

[B]

Hello, my little bear cubs and shitheads. Pretty good?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

What do you. What, What, What? What would you like?

[A]

I don't know. I just, you know.

[B]

You've come up with nothing. Three years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You came up with nothing.

[A]

My Little Ponies. Welcome to the show, My Little ponies.

[B]

That's copyrighted, you idiot. Oh, my God. Ponies.

[A]

You can have bear cubs and I can't have ponies?

[B]

A baby horse is not a pony, is it? You're the pony. You're the Maloney pony.

[A]

A baby horse is a pony.

[B]

A baby horse is a foal.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

F O. A L, F Owl foal. Fawn foal. I think it's a foal.

[A]

I think you're full of it.

[B]

You're just like your father. And by that I mean I hope you die in your sleep. No.

[A]

No.

[B]

Welcome back to Secondhand Therapy, my little bear cubs and shitheads. We need to remind you that we

[A]

are not My Little Ponies.

[B]

We need to remind you that we're not therapists. We're not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy. And this is not professional advice in any way. This is Michael's last episode. He will be following the Malone path.

[A]

Long sleep

[B]

to the stairwell into the core of the earth.

[A]

Can't wait.

[B]

You think your dad's in hell?

[A]

I think he's at a bar somewhere.

[B]

That's gotta be heaven, you know?

[A]

All right,

[B]

we talked about it on the Patreon intro, but we should do it here. Do you want to tell them your life update?

[A]

What's the what?

[B]

What is it you don't want to tell them? No.

[A]

I'm unaware of my new life, you know?

[B]

Exactly. Buddy. I was in the meeting with the attorney all morning. You're not going to tell them you find Michael is finally paying his child support?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Finally.

[A]

That's right. Thirteen little ones. A baker's dozen.

[B]

A baker's dozen. Some would say him and his cousin, they're going to patch it up. And he's making the child support. And I'm. I'm proud of you for stepping up and doing that.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

If you want to read, there's a live stream of the court date.

[A]

Of the court date?

[B]

Yeah. Because there is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I remember that.

[B]

What are you talking about? Midwesterngenepool.com maloneclan. You can watch what clan with a C. Three of them now. What? What?

[A]

I think these intros should be for

[B]

the shit show and not for secondhand.

[A]

I don't think they belong here.

[B]

But they're fun.

[A]

They're very fun. I think they go on the show.

[B]

We're moving these to Patreon.

[A]

Yeah, we're moving. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's fair. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So go to Patreon if you would like to hear these updates from our lives. And you can go to Midwestern genepool.com Malone clan. That's Malone clan with three Cs. You can see the court date. And we're gonna be. We're not. I'm not running it, but they're gonna live stream, um, lucky number 14, the abortion. So you can.

[A]

That's a Harrison Ford movie coming out.

[B]

Okay, that's enough. Go to Patreon, please. Patreon.com Secondhand therapy pod. There's a lot of stuff.

[A]

There's a lot of stuff.

[B]

And it's gonna be getting free episodes. A little more ridiculous ad.

[A]

Free episodes on a completely different podcast where you can hear shenanigans. Shenanigans. Just like that.

[B]

Yeah, I guess they're done over here. Sor. Sorry. They got too good. We also. We also have merch available. Secondhand therapypod.com vasectomyfarms.com if you give a shit about women.

[A]

And you can contact us.

[B]

Yeah, I'm actually going to be reading a postcard that I got from a bear cub addressed just to me from Portugal, so.

[A]

Must be nice to get mail. Must be nice.

[B]

He is his mother's son. So, Haley, if you're listening, thank you for the postcard. Appreciate you very much.

[A]

Yes, thank you. Haley, why are you like this, Unloved? I don't know.

[B]

You're mad at your mom, not at me. Right? Hey, thanks for being here. Going over to Patreon. I Think that's it?

[A]

I think it's it.

[B]

Play the music.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay. If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[A]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[B]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[A]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[B]

All right, so here's the thing. Daddy already did it, okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, you do, here's what you do. You go to trypsychicsource.com sht10. Okay? You're gonna get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[A]

Okay, all right.

[B]

Talk about my love life.

[A]

Trying to see some. Some.

[B]

Maybe some road bumps, just seeing if it's gonna be clear skies, and it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just, like, a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're going to do a medium.

[A]

Oh, my God. I can't wait.

[B]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it. And then DM us, because I want to hear how it went.

[A]

Oh, I can't. Please, please. DM us.

[B]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[A]

I want the tea. I know we talk about betterhelp a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[B]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[A]

I'm using Better help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[A]

It's not a good fate. And that happens. Finding good therapists is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[B]

And you're married now. Never.

[A]

Never.

[B]

You're in love now.

[A]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[B]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

Let's do one together.

[A]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[B]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you, dude? You think I'm not gonna walk out with the trophy?

[A]

I know you will.

[B]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor. And if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhandtherapy Ever heard the story of Harry? He was a legend around here. Until one afternoon he left. Never came back. Turns out Harry went and made himself a website using Squarespace. Used Squarespace domains to buy artisanseatcushions.com and he built a beautiful site with an online store to sell his artisan seat cushions. Now Harry's sitting on a fortune. And if our Harry can do it, anyone can. Build your [e-mail], use offer code, everything for 10% off your website or domain. Love you guys. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[A]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[B]

And we know that you've been in Portugal.

[A]

I have not.

[B]

I know you haven't.

[A]

I've been to a lot of places.

[B]

You haven't been to Portugal.

[A]

I haven't. But I've been.

[B]

They don't have Subway.

[A]

They don't?

[B]

They probably do. They probably do. Anyway, Haley sent me a postcard from Portugal. Haley, thank you again. I'm gonna read it to you. I found it very thought provoking. See if I can get some light on this so I can see it. Okay. In episode 134, you asked, why do they need to know what I'm feeling? What does that do for anybody?

[A]

Mmm.

[B]

I'm sure you've been flooded with answers, but here's mine. We are social animals. Why does a dog wag its tail? Why does an elephant trumpet in grief? Do you think they wonder? What does that do for anybody? Emotional expression evolved because it serves an important function. Happiness tells others that something good is present. Grief invites care and support until the group is functional again. We're wired to express and absorb the emotions of those close to us because it's a foundational form of communication for group survival. Now, we're also intellectual creatures, so we have choices. One can choose veganism. They can also reject emotional expression. At times it may be appropriate to do so, but neither is natural. I like that she's anti vegan. This helps me. Your body was built to digest meat and to cry when it's hurt. It sounds like you've been a bit of an emotional vegan. The sloppy, meaty expression of emotion may not look appetizing now, but. But I think your body will welcome the change. Love and laughs. Haley, a millennial who moved to Portugal and has spent the last year making silly little crafts and thinking a lot about community and purpose.

[A]

That's fucking great.

[B]

This is how you respond. You don't go in the comments and say, hey, cunts. And then some stuff. Don't come in our DMs and go, hey, douchebags, Be nice.

[A]

That was really sweet.

[B]

Thanks, Haley. What do you think of that?

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Emotional veganism.

[A]

That's a T shirt. Emotional vegan. Yeah, man. What do you think about that?

[B]

Hearing that, I think Haley's got some points here.

[A]

I love the opening. She also speaks like Alan Watts. I don't know.

[B]

Well, that was me reading it. I don't know if you knew that.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

We're wired to express and absorb the emotions of those close to us because it's a foundational form of communication for group survival. So why group survival? Do you think?

[A]

Signals.

[B]

Are you under the impression that answers my. What? The question I just asked you.

[A]

Yeah. You're sending me signals. I'm sending you signals all the time. And that's how we read each other. And the hardier you are to read and the harder it is to survive with each other because maybe you're in a bad mood and I don't know, like, if I don't know it, then I approach you in something and then maybe we get in a fight or something or, you know, kind of things like that. Like that all goes into survival, whether it's relationship or life or death or whatever. Signals, man.

[B]

I took it completely different when you take it as well. I'm smarter than you.

[A]

You didn't like that? No, I don't like that. Why?

[B]

It was a stupid joke.

[A]

I know. I'm just with you.

[B]

I kind of took it as, like, for good of the group. So if one person is, you know, as she said, the elephant trumpeting in grief, then if the group is unaware, then that one being can get left behind, and then the group's down a person. And then maybe you Grieve that and then that it, like, snowballs into, like, literal. Don't say. Yeah, like, that's what you said. That's not what you said.

[A]

That's signals, man. The elephant making noise and grief is a signal.

[B]

I'm talking about literal survival. You were not. You were talking about, like, this relationship. Surviving.

[A]

No, I'm talking about both. Yeah. I think both are important there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I hate you. It may not look appetizing now, but I think your body will welcome the change. You ever talked to a vegan that started eating meat again?

[A]

No.

[B]

They'll never go back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, dude, every vegan. I know that. Who's the one I was talking to recently? Oh, my girl. One of my girl's sisters was vegan for a long time, and then she just had this insatiable craving for meat. Ate some meat and is closer to a carnivore than she is a vegan now. And, yeah, she was telling me how she didn't realize, like, the nutrients he was missing, the energy, like, the mental clarity. People swear by veganism.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why do most people go to veganism? Is it like, animal rights and ethics and stuff?

[A]

I think that's the majority of it, yeah. And it's. Sometimes it's cleaner eating or thought of as cleaner eating.

[B]

Cleaner meaning what?

[A]

Just good for your heart and things like that, because, you know, red meat and all that, so it's a little cleaner, but I think the majority of it is animal rights.

[B]

Interesting. Emotional vegan.

[A]

Well, as someone who has started to lean into their feelings more. Right. Like, you've been. A couple episodes ago, you said you were working on expressing anger because it was the easiest one and things like that.

[B]

Yeah. In a safe space in my relationship.

[A]

Yeah. Are you craving more emotions or are you. No. Yeah.

[B]

No. I don't know. Maybe. I. I truly. I feel fairly content the majority of the time. Yeah, I. I was doing some reflecting this past week. I mean, I feel great emotionally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I really do. I have, like, you know, peaks and valleys of, like, things that happen throughout a day. But, like, my baseline is pretty solid. I'm pretty. Pretty content with where my life is. Have you ever felt that?

[A]

Yeah, I've been feeling really content lately. It's so weird. I was thinking about, like, I was journaling about how happy I am the other day, how happy I've been.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What?

[B]

Last week you were literally crying, being like, I just want to be happy.

[A]

Yeah. And I. I'm just confused.

[B]

That's all. I should. I need to hear you out.

[A]

I got sad journaling about how happy I was. Isn't that fucked up?

[B]

That's. That's on brand. We call that loyal to the brand.

[A]

Now what you're talking about, what you're referring to is peaks and valleys. Right. Like, I would like to experience happiness at a regular level. Like me being happy recently is out of the ordinary. I'm feeling that because my cup is full right now. I had a great last couple weeks. I've had a very fulfilling last few weeks. And so I'm feeling really good. I'm afraid that's gonna wear off.

[B]

Of course it is.

[A]

Yeah. And then it's just. And I don't know when I'll feel this good again because I haven't felt like this in a long time. Yeah. So, yeah, I think maybe that's where the sadness was coming in, was recognizing that I'm feeling really good right now and maybe that's gonna be gone soon.

[B]

Interesting difference between the two of us is I didn't once say happy and you labeled it happiness several times.

[A]

What do you refer to it as? Just content. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think happiness is a peak. I don't think happiness, for me, I don't think it can be a baseline thing. Yeah, I think intent is the baseline.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Happiness. I mean, happiness is. I've always, always. I. Yeah, I tend to look at happiness as a fleeting thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Kind of content and peace is what I aim for. Does that make sense? Yeah,

[A]

Yeah. I think I'm fulfilled is what I'm Maybe not content, maybe not happy, but fulfilled. I'm feeling really.

[B]

That seems maintainable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Fulfillment. I mean, you have to be intentional and like put the effort towards remaining fulfilled.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Fulfillment seems like an easier thing to sustain long term than happiness to me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.

[B]

So what are you going to do to maintain your fulfillment? I don't know. Do you really not?

[A]

I don't know yet. I've just been trying to. Yeah, I've just been trying to keep it that way. So I've been trying to just do things that I enjoy and take breaks when I need it and just listen to my body a little bit more.

[B]

What do you. We've talked before that you, you don't really know what you like. So what are some things you found that you enjoy?

[A]

Well, like these last couple of weeks have been so fulfilling because I've been, you know, I've been surrounded by friends and activities and being of service. Like I did the big brothers, big sisters thing last weekend and like, it felt good to be of service, and that was really fulfilling. And then.

[B]

Did you bowl?

[A]

I did.

[B]

How'd you do?

[A]

Who are you talking to?

[B]

60, buddy. Bowling's hard, dude.

[A]

I'd be getting them strikes.

[B]

Would you bowl?

[A]

I don't know. I didn't keep. I mean, we kept score, but I didn't see. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not terrible.

[B]

I'm pretty terrible at bowling. I'm not a good bowler.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was fun. It was really fulfilling. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When do you get to do it again?

[A]

Whenever I want. So I can just check with the family and then meet up with them.

[B]

Are you gonna hate this? Have you done that?

[A]

No. It's been three days. No, I have not.

[B]

Yeah. That's an interesting thing for me as someone being like, I'm fulfilled. It helps so much. I want to keep this up.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. We're very different.

[A]

We're very different.

[B]

I have a new thing that I'm going to be doing. Speaking of fulfillment. Now we have a sponsor, Southern New Hampshire University.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

As I said, I did a couple online classes with them. Really liked it. And I have become. I was gonna say inspired. I don't know if I was inspired.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Anyway, I'm gonna be taking some in person courses here locally, so daddy's going back to school.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Poetry. Not poetry.

[B]

I'm on the wait list for ceramics.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

Very, very, very much hoping I get in that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I am. I have to do a prerequisite course. But the main thing I want to do is auto mechanics. I want to learn how to work on cars a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I got to do a prerequisite where they're like, this is a screwdriver and don't set things on fire and whatever the fuck else.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I was one of its, like, resume writing. I was like, I'm not going that day. See, I gotta do that. And then they got a big ass shop down there with engines and tools and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Learn how to work on some cars. We'll be right back with more secondhand therapy after this. If you know how I keep telling you. I'm doing a psychology class. Doing it. All right.

[A]

Okay. Are you really?

[B]

I'm really doing it, dude. Our new sponsor, Southern New Hampshire University,

[A]

found some classes, bro. Oh, you fancy.

[B]

Now I'm out here.

[A]

He's a schoolboy.

[B]

Hey, and here's the thing. If you're like me and you're just like, dude, I like learning stuff sometimes Snhu, go learn some stuff. If you were like me in the past, maybe you feel a little stuck in your career. You want to start a new thing. Snhu, what about you?

[A]

I mean, I love to learn.

[B]

Oh, God, he's never learned.

[A]

I need to do it more. Officially.

[B]

You never learned a thing. Anyway. If you want to check out SNHU and you want to see what kind of programs they have, you can go to Snhu. Edu, Snh. Sht. And you can request more information. It costs nothing to request more information. It's a great way to support the podcast. Learn some stuff, start a new career. Do whatever you need. Go back to school. Snhu. Edu. Sht. There's also a link in the episode description. Get some info, start some learning. You're welcome. If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[A]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait to. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[B]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[A]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[B]

All right, so here's the thing. Daddy already did it. Okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, you do, here's what you do. You go to trypsychicsource.com sht10, okay? You're going to get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[A]

Okay, all right.

[B]

Talk about my love life.

[A]

Trying to see some. Some.

[B]

Maybe some road bumps, just seeing if it's going to be clear skies, and it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just, like, a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're gonna do a medium.

[A]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[B]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it and then DM us because I want to hear how it went.

[A]

Oh, I can't. I. Please, please DM us.

[B]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[A]

I want the tea. I wrote a book, which still feels weird to say out loud. It is a collection of short stories and essays and faux journal entries, and it's, you know, all about love, grief, dating, loneliness, and all the weird ways People try to hold on to each other while they fall apart. Some of the stories are funny, some of the stories are sad. Most are, you know, a blend of both. I mean, honestly, the book really isn't about love. It's more about moments. Like those awkward moments after an argument, or the drive home after a bad date, or that silence after someone says I'm fine when you know that they're lying to you. Anyways, I am offering signed copies of the [e-mail] so if you've ever mistaken attention for intimacy or referred to distance as independence or, you know, love someone and then realized that that really wasn't the problem, then this book might be for you. And you can get a signed copy and stickers and bookmarks and all kinds of fun [e-mail] it's available in paperback, hardback, ebook, and the audiobook is coming soon, so there's no excuse. Go check it out. Velvet Tiger Books With Squarespace, you can do more than just build a website. You can build a business. Squarespace helps restaurants and hotels showcase signature offerings and experiences. And with Squarespace, consultants and photographers can create invoices to collect well earned payments. You can even send email newsletters to keep in touch with your loyal customers. Done. So grow your [e-mail]. get started with offer code. Make it real for 10% off your website or domain.

[B]

Com.

[A]

What is the, for lack of a better term, what is the inspiration behind this?

[B]

Well, I've always wanted one. I don't know anything about cars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I, I've always thought it's a good knowledge or skill to have. I mean, dude, your car breaks down, it would be so great to be able to know what you're looking at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't. Yeah, I have no fucking idea. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it's. And it's just, it's something to learn. It's something you can like do with your hands and play with and learn and it's machinery and I don't know, I think you could. I think it's going to be interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you often gravitate towards learning things that you can apply in your life?

[B]

I mean, I think this is the first time I'm choosing to learn something as a hobby. Like I did painting. But that's. There's no wrong way to do it. There is a wrong way to clean a carburetor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so I really haven't learned any craft or skills just for the sake of learning it. So I don't know. Maybe because it'll be interesting if I do, you know, end up getting into ceramics if I'm like, this is boring as shit. What am I gonna do with this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know, but I don't know, man. I think it's gotta be good for you to just learn something new just for the sake one. Learning, I think helps your brain work better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yeah. Doing things that require focus, it's just. It's such a way to learn how to be more present. You know, I get in my head and then the fuck the things fucked up. Or I drop a spark plug down a hole. I don't know where spark plugs go for those holes. I don't know. But something, you know, you got to pay attention. You got to really be aware of what's happening. You got to be really present. So seems like a good thing to do. I might hate it. I don't know. I enjoyed the online ones.

[A]

So, you know, any feelings of fear or overwhelm?

[B]

No overwhelm. I mean I'm a little, I don't know, a little nervous about. It's just one more thing in the week. It's not like I'm overly busy, you know, I mean, we're two self employed people. We kind of make our own thing. But I'm a little, little nervous about just the time, the time requirement. I am a little nervous about what it's going to be like to be the old guy.

[A]

Do you think you're going to be the old guy? Well, yeah, it's a community college. I mean anybody could be there.

[B]

Anybody could be at any college. Yeah.

[A]

But more than likely at a community college, you're. Yeah. I think, I think people your age,

[B]

I assume for autumn again, I figured it was going to be kids trying to like get an apprenticeship or so they can get a job or something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. But I don't know, dude. It's gonna be weird. Mm. It's gonna be real weird. And look, I'm not proud of this. Mm. I have a little bit of a concern.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this is coming from the deepest, most honest part of me.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

It's not a reasonable fear or rational. It's not realistic. But there is a part of me that wonders being on a college camp because I also went to community college before I finished my bachelor's degree. It is college age, people. For the majority of it. Now, I haven't been around, mingled, conversed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With college aged females in a. In a dog's age, some might say.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And I am just a man. And I really hope that I don't try to be flirting or try to. You know what I mean? Really?

[A]

You're concerned with this?

[B]

It's not a rational or, like, real, like, oh, God, I'm in trouble. But I do wonder if. I mean, you know, we get recognized in the world sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If some 20 year old comes up, she's like, oh, my God, I love the podcast. I don't know what my ego's gonna do, bro.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

See, I talk like I don't have control over it sometimes. You don't.

[A]

You're like, I want that to be on record for future use.

[B]

Oh, my God. Ask Bill Clinton sometimes you don't have control. Ask Kobe Bryant. You can't sometimes, but you know what I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like I said, I don't think it's a real thing. I don't. I can't imagine I would make enough bad decisions to do something that would really, like, affect my character and my morals and ultimately affect my relationship. I realistly don't think, yeah, I'm going to do that. Happens, dude, though, you know, men are dumb and unfortunately, I'm a man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, dude. It's just a weird thing, dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I.

[A]

Have you shared this with your partner? Yes. And her reaction,

[B]

I mean, she's. She truly was just like, that makes sense. She's like, don't do anything stupid. I was like, yeah, I know. I was like, it's just I have this weird fear. He's like, yeah. She's like, I kind of get it. She's like. She's like, honestly, I'm not worried about it.

[A]

I'm like, all right. No.

[B]

Well, here comes a threesome.

[A]

Are you someone who worries about her out in the world?

[B]

No.

[A]

There's no trust or anything. Issues there or anything.

[B]

No, no. She's not a cheater.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't worry about myself either. It's just this is such a new scenario.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're a little bit famous and I have a dick that when I was younger, I did some stupid things because of it. And I've, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm still just a boy in there somewhere.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. You don't get it. Doesn't make sense to you, huh?

[A]

Um, I don't. Yeah. I don't have any. I don't have any restrictions in my life right now, so. No, I can't relate to that.

[B]

But that's one of your gripes when you're in relationships is the restrictions.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's why I took care of it. I don't have any.

[B]

Like, when I see temptation, I just fall.

[A]

I just.

[B]

I fall into temptation.

[A]

Yeah. I'm stupid.

[B]

Yeah. I don't want to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, it's one of those things that, like, I'm not, like. I get it, bro. We're not, like, crazy famous. Like, we get recognized here and there.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

yeah. I'm not Justin Bieber. I get it. All right. But, yeah, there is a thing of life of, like, don't put yourself in situations where you're going to fuck up.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think you are.

[B]

I don't think so either.

[A]

Now, if you start going to, like, college parties and stuff.

[B]

Oh, God. You do that in college.

[A]

You're gonna be Frank the Tank. Yeah. Coming home all late.

[B]

Old school. I forgot that movie.

[A]

Be so funny if you just turned, like, college party animal. Yeah. Community college.

[B]

I'm just gonna go hang out at campus, see what happens. Don't let me go.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because something's up.

[A]

Something's up. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

What's going on with you? Oh, do you want to come to school?

[A]

I actually do. There's. No.

[B]

No, it's happening already.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't go there.

[A]

No.

[B]

There's a Starbucks on campus you wouldn't believe. I don't even know what campus I'm going to. Okay. What's going on?

[A]

I'm picking up some hours at the.

[B]

You do want to go to school.

[A]

I do. I do. Yeah. You had mentioned. Oh, you mentioned cooking classes there the other day, and I was like, they have that. I didn't know. A community college teaching you how to cook.

[B]

I didn't talk about cooking classes since we moved to Vegas, dude. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[A]

Now.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

Now, I tried four different times to sign up for cooking classes, and every time I failed, and then I gave up. So. Yes.

[B]

Do you think that's a saying I failed so I gave up?

[A]

No, I'm saying.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Good job saying that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At least I tried. I didn't just be like, I'd like to do that, and then go on my. Go on my merry way. I fucking tried.

[B]

I think that is what happened. There was just a couple speed bumps along the way. So you hit a couple speed bumps

[A]

more than speed bumps, and then you

[B]

went on your merry way after the speed bumps.

[A]

No. Sure.

[B]

Accountability.

[A]

No. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm saying, yeah, I did fail, and that's good. However, I did try, and there has to be some. Some. Some. Something there.

[B]

Okay. I'm not. I don't make the rules. Are you happy with it?

[A]

I mean, I wish I was in cooking glasses, but.

[B]

Well, start rubbing that lamp, bitch. You're the genie, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some cooking classes, huh?

[A]

Yeah, I think so, bro.

[B]

They got a fucking butcher and charcuterie class.

[A]

Well, I had therapy this week, and that's that. And that's all we have to talk about.

[B]

Last week, you said you were. You had to write your mom a letter, and then you were going to talk about some parts that came up and maybe deal with finger.

[A]

No, it didn't come up. Sorry.

[B]

I was thinking of a different show.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's. I don't know what that's about, but, yeah, I had therapy and it was fine.

[B]

Maybe it was one of those other shows of all the guys that are ripping off our idea.

[A]

So I wrote the letter.

[B]

How long was it?

[A]

It's a page 11 font on Google Docs.

[B]

You typed it?

[A]

Yeah. I didn't trust myself enough to handwrite it because I. I tend to be pretty sloppy when I'm just flow of thought. And I wanted to be able to, like, really know what I was saying when I read it back.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I had to read it in therapy.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

Yeah, I did.

[B]

How'd that go?

[A]

Oh, buddy.

[B]

Was it fun?

[A]

Listen, he. He strung me along at first. We got on the call, and I was like, yeah, I don't want to do this today. And he's like, oh, yeah? Why is that? I was like, because I've got to read this letter. And he was like. And he started asking me about my week and this and that, and then we started talking, and then, like, 15 minutes in, he's. I was like, can I read this letter? He goes, if you'd like to. I was like, yeah, let's get it out of you.

[B]

Oh, you don't want to, Gray.

[A]

Fucking dog walked me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So anyways.

[B]

All right. So you have it.

[A]

I'm not reading the letter.

[B]

You're not gonna read it on the podcast?

[A]

No.

[B]

Can I read it? I think you'll let me. Maybe we're putting it on Patreon.

[A]

Oh, God, no.

[B]

Can we print it and frame it and put it in the studio?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, just tell me about it then.

[A]

Okay. Well, I wrote the letter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And turns out I'm pretty angry.

[B]

You hold the phone. Who could have seen it coming?

[A]

Not me.

[B]

Yep. That is true.

[A]

Not me. I would never be mad at my sweet baby angel mother. Not me.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Turns out pretty angry.

[B]

Turns out Mario is on one.

[A]

Mario wants to pull that lever down.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Now, here's what's also not gonna surprise you. I'm not only mad at her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Mad at me too.

[B]

Shocking information.

[A]

Mad at both of us.

[B]

Breaking news.

[A]

Breaking news.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hey, first of all, good for you, dude.

[A]

Yeah. It was not. Not a good time writing this letter. There's a lot of guilt and shame that I carry with me, and part of that is her fault. And because I think we've talked about this on here before. Like, my mother would hide things from me purposefully. If you haven't caught up on the episode, she would, like, call me and be like, you know, last Thursday I was in the hospital, and I'm like, well, call me last Thursday. Then, stuff like that. She just never let me in when it was happening. And part of the letter was me being angry about that. And, you know, parts of it were just me saying, like, you know, God forbid you let me fucking help you, you know, and there was something there about, like, I know you thought you were protecting me, but I am not protected. I am fucked up. I am broken. I am hurt. You are not protecting me. Shit like that. And the guilt and shame that I have and I carry is part is because of that, you know? Like, I had no idea how sick she was at the end, and I was wrapped up in my own bullshit. And there's.

[B]

You know, it's not bullshit. It's living your own life. Everybody's doing it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I remember having talks with my grandmother after my mother died and finding out these truths. One of them I think I've talked about on here before, about, like, when Wayne was in the hospital and, like, how I knew it was gonna be the last time I saw Wayne, and. But my mother was, like, not in. You know, not showing any signs of that. She was telling me that Wayne was gonna get out of there, and she was planning physical therapy and, like, all these things. And I was like, okay, so she was holding it together for me and keeping it from me, and I was holding it together for her. And then. And then later, when I'm talking to grandma after mom died, she's like, yeah, your mother knew that Wayne was gonna die. She was holding it together for you. And I'm like, well, we could have helped each other, and we didn't. Because you think you're fucking protecting me,

[B]

and you're not, and you thought you were protecting her.

[A]

Yeah. And then, you know, I find out from Grandma that, like, when I was home those couple days before she died, like, my mother was making food, My mother was vacuuming. My mother was taking shopping, you know, like, she was just going about her regular. It was a regular trip. And I'm talking to grandma later, and she's like, your mother could barely walk. I'm like, what are you talking about? She's like, she's coughing up blood. She can barely walk. She. She could barely stand. I'm like, God forbid I fucking help you. God forbid you ask for help or fucking, like,

[B]

In your mind. What. What are you able to do?

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

What's the help?

[A]

I would have stayed longer. I would have been there. I would have, like, made time for her. I would have, like, I think, comfort, if anything else. Instead, she chose isolation when she's hurting.

[B]

Did you just realize that you also do that?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Didn't like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, that was a real time discovery.

[B]

I thought that might be what just happened. Yeah, yeah,

[A]

yeah. We'll be right back with more secondhand therapy. Hang tight. I know we talk about better help a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[B]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[A]

I'm using better help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[A]

It was not a good fit, and that happens. Finding good therapist is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[B]

And you're married now.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Never.

[A]

Never.

[B]

You're in love now.

[A]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[B]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

Let's do one together.

[A]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[B]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you?

[A]

Dude?

[B]

You think I'm not gonna walk out with the trophy?

[A]

I know you will.

[B]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor, and if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com Secondhand therapy we love you guys.

[A]

Squarespace is not only the best place to build your website, but to discover new domains too. Something like topfootballcamp.com for your top football camp, whisperingbloom.com for your silent retreat, or whisperingboom.com for your shouting retreat. Maybe velvetcords.com for your music studio. Or existentialglitter.com for your artist studio. With a website from Squarespace, you can build your brand and your business [e-mail] get your domain before they're gone. With offer code. Make it real for 10% off your domain or website. There was a thing in the letter too, that I was like. I said something like, Because that's how I'm programmed. Because that's how you're programmed. It's our programming, and I hate it. And that reminded me of that. So I'm talking to my therapist about how she would protect me with this, you know, like, acting like everything's fine and like. Or not telling me things, you know, she thought she was protecting me. And I'm telling. I'm catching him up also with the stories with what happened with Wayne and Mom and, like, all this. Because he doesn't know those stories.

[B]

No.

[A]

And then he hit me with this. He said, it doesn't sound like she was worried about protecting you. It does to a degree. He goes, but it sounds like telling you or asking you to come home or asking you for help made it real for her. She was protecting herself by not getting you involved. Because if you get involved, then that means it's real. And she didn't want it to be real. Yeah, that fucked me up.

[B]

What do you feel with that?

[A]

I was. I am ready to be mad at her, ready to be mad at the situation, ready to be mad at me. Ready to. I'm ready for anger, and I'm feeling anger, and that makes me feel sympathy for her. And what happens a lot of time with my anger is it gets washed away with either sympathy or empathy. Right? Like, it just clears the slate. I can't be mad at them because, oh, look what they're going through or this or that. And it just washes away my anger. It doesn't make it valid. And I told my therapist, I was like, that could be true. That she was doing it to protect herself. I still want to be mad at her.

[B]

So when you're. When your therapist said she was doing it to protect herself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It sounds like you heard it as almost your therapist giving her an excuse or a pass.

[A]

Yeah, in a way. Yeah. And I don't. I don't want to. I've been doing that my whole life. I've been doing that my whole fucking life. I don't want to do that. I want to be mad.

[B]

That's not what I heard.

[A]

What did you hear?

[B]

I heard your therapist go, yeah, your mom was being selfish.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. I didn't hear that at all. I heard that she didn't know any better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then she didn't want it to be real, and so she was protecting herself. And she did. She knew it. This is all she knows, is to. Mm.

[B]

I have a thought.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Well, I have a question as well. I'm gonna give you my thought first. So you're writing the letter. Sounds like a lot of it is situations surrounding your mom's death.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she kept a lot from you and wouldn't let you help.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think or feel. I'm gonna go think. Maybe feel that the anger is because she was keeping you from having any control over the situation.

[A]

Mm. No. No, I don't think that.

[B]

Interesting. I don't understand what. Yeah, I guess maybe when you say you wanted to help, I'm.

[A]

It's more trust. You don't trust me. You don't think I can help you, or you're. You're. Again, you're hurt. You'd rather hurt alone than say you're hurting, would you? Yeah.

[B]

So you get it?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Here's my question. In the letter, was there any anger or anything about childhood and how you were treated or raised or expectations or cold shoulder?

[A]

No, not yet.

[B]

There's another letter coming.

[A]

I got more homework. Yeah, I mean, the programming, you know, I talked about some of that. Here's a. Here's a fun one. I didn't even realize until I was reading it to my therapist. There's a part in there where I talk about how I look.

[B]

Like the vanity.

[A]

Yeah. Because my mother cared about looks so much. I was like, I look. I think it reads something like I look very different now. I'm covered in tattoos and my head is shaved. You'd hate it. So I look more and more. Look, dad, the more I get, the more older I get. And I don't know how I feel about that, but I know that you wouldn't like that. But my mother would comment. You know, I used to shave my beard for my mother for her birthday because she hated my beard. Hmm.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you were in a relationship with somebody who treated you differently in a negative way when you shaved your beard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a mind fuck.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh. So your mom had. I don't want to get too into it. Your mom had some ways of controlling you still, even as an adult.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. And I didn't realize that. I thought I was doing something nice for mom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah. And, I mean, you were. You're just being a good little boy. She expected. How could you know it was that deep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oof.

[B]

Yeah. Your mom's still. Using love to get you to do certain things as an adult. Is. That's rough?

[A]

No. That's why when we have the conversations about earning love, I don't understand any other way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That made her happy.

[B]

No, it didn't.

[A]

Shaving my beard made her happy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like.

[B]

Yeah. What do you think it really did, though?

[A]

I don't know. I still don't know. I mean. Yeah, that's still the connection that I have. Is that, like, she just didn't like me with a beard.

[B]

I wonder what it actually did for her. Like, is it. And I'm just brainstorming now. So let's say it does make her happy at the surface. And then is she happy because. Seeing her son's face makes her happy? Is she happy because her son loves her so much he'll change his appearance for her? Does it make her happy that she still knows how to get what she wants? Like, do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, what is the happiness? That's. That's interesting.

[A]

I think it just. Honestly, I think it. She was so worried about status and appearance. I think it's that where it's just like, a beard makes you look dirty or bummy. And so she doesn't want that. She doesn't want her son to look bummy or dirty. She wants her, you know, presentable. Again, this is a woman who would do her hair for three hours to go to the grocery store.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you can't leave the house like that. So I got this big, shaggy beard. What are you doing, Michael? What are you doing? Shave it. Gotta look presentable. That's the way I saw it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm sure. It obviously made her happy too, that, like, That her son's doing something nice for her. For sure. Is it doing something nice in her eyes? Yeah, right? I don't like your beard. I'll shave it. Okay. That's something nice. That's for me. You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure there's that.

[B]

Yeah, I guess.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, if you told me, like, God, man, those shoes are just terrible, and I threw them in the trash, you'd be like, you did a nice thing for me.

[A]

I would. Well, my people please me. Like, you didn't have to do that. Yeah, but. Yeah, I'd be like, oh, shit. Cool. You didn't have to do that. That's crazy.

[B]

That's insane.

[A]

You wouldn't think that if you were like, no,

[B]

if.

[A]

If I wore a T shirt that you hated and be like, God, I hate that fucking T shirt. And I'd be like. And then I just didn't wear it around you.

[B]

And you'd be one. I wouldn't notice. But if you took it off and, like, threw it away, I'd be like, are you out of your mind?

[A]

I'd be like, you hate it? Do you like it doesn't matter. You hate it. Damn. And that's how I earn your love? By throwing away the T shirt that you.

[B]

I hate that you threw it away?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know you're in my love. You go mind your business about my fucking T shirt, bro. Good boy, dude. Oh, man. Your mom getting you to shave your beard is wild.

[A]

No.

[B]

Oof. What's your next homework?

[A]

We're not there yet.

[B]

Oh,

[A]

happiness came up.

[B]

Who?

[A]

I don't know him either. Yeah, but we talked about how, you know, last week when I was talking about. A lot of it is. A lot of my happiness is blocked by her not being here, you know, like, not being able to share with her and everything. And. And he said. He goes, don't you think your mother would want you to be happy? And I thought about it and I said, I don't know. He said, what do you mean? And I go, let me tell you a story about my mother and how petty she is. And then I told him about the postcards, about how I'd go on tour and then I would send my grandmother postcards because grandma was in her late 80s and in and out of the hospital and all this stuff. And, you know, I was touring 46 weeks a year on the road, and so I would send her postcard every week of where I'm at. There's, like, this little app on my phone that would turn a photo into A postcard. And you could put a little message on there. And when I would come home to visit, Grandma would have those postcards out, and she'd tell me, she. I got your postcard. You know, she'd go through them with me, and it was adorable. And my mother would say, must be nice. Must be nice to get postcards like that. And I go, it is nice. It is nice to get postcards. And we would tease her and things like that, and Grandma would kind of tease her and. But in the reality of it is, my mother hated that. My mother was very, very angry about grandma getting postcards, and she didn't even. When I moved out of the house to my grandmother's house, which is literally a driveway away. Yeah.

[B]

Literally next door.

[A]

Yeah. Broke her heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Couldn't take it.

[B]

I honestly can't believe they didn't just switch houses. And then when I moved out of state.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I started traveling, and then it was, you know. So does my mother want me to be happy? I don't know. Because if I'm happy and I'm doing all these things without her, must be nice. Must be nice not to think about your mom while you're doing all these things. Must be nice to. Yeah, it is nice, Ma. It isn't. I have a great life. Yeah, I have a great life.

[B]

Rub it in her face.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

that's a bummer.

[A]

It goes back to anger. All I wanted to do was help her. All I wanted to do was help her. And I wish that she was still here so I could help her fucking unlearn some of this shit that I'm trying to unlearn. And.

[B]

How do you help her unlearn if she doesn't want change for herself?

[A]

My mother wanted change. She didn't know how to do it. She didn't know how to get out of things. She didn't know how.

[B]

You relate to that.

[A]

No, I know how. Sometimes I just don't do it.

[B]

You don't think it was the same for her?

[A]

My mother and I are ruled by the same thing, which is fear. But I've lived a life that my mother never could. And I have lived a life my father never could. I have lived a life that

[B]

a

[A]

lot of people never could. And sometimes I fight fear and I win. Sometimes I fight fear and I lose. My mother won't even fight it. So anger is productive. Turns out

[B]

I love productivity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's your whole.

[A]

Worth my homework this week to write another letter and be angry.

[B]

You weren't angry in this one.

[A]

Not all the way.

[B]

You're gonna pull the lever.

[A]

I'm gonna give Mario permission.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

No.

[B]

How you feel?

[A]

Sad.

[B]

What?

[A]

She doesn't even see it coming.

[B]

Hello, my little bear cub. I just wanted to say thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you would like ad free episodes and other bonus content, please head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod okay, love you.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

And we know that Jesus, that's a bear. It's not. You ever heard the story of Harry? He was a legend around here. Until one afternoon he left, never came back. Turns out Harry went and made himself a website using Squarespace. Use Squarespace domains to buy artisanseatcushions.com and he built a beautiful site with an online store to sell his artisan seat cushions. Now Harry's sitting on a fortune. And if our Harry can do it, anyone can. Build your [e-mail] use offer code everything for 10% off your website or domain.