I'm Afraid To Be Myself | #123

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy – Episode #123: "I'm Afraid To Be Myself"

Release Date: March 30, 2026
Hosts: Louie "Bear" Paoletti & Michael "Mike" Malone
Podcast Theme: Two unlicensed best friends unpack their weekly therapy sessions, discussing mental health with honesty, humor, and real talk.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the challenges of authenticity, exploring what it means to fear being your true self around others – from the demands of people-pleasing and abandonment issues to unpacking childhood friendship and emotional milestones. The hosts blend sincere self-examination with their trademark wit, ultimately reflecting on growth, regret, and the difficulty of letting go.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Expectations and Letting Others Down

[05:58 – 10:55]

• Mike discusses feeling trapped by others’ expectations, especially after releasing a book — worrying about whether different audiences (from his standup days or podcast fans) will be disappointed.
• He shares the anxiety of not knowing if he’s measuring up to anyone’s standards:

  “So, yeah. This idea of, like letting people down… living up to expectations I don’t even know are real.” — Mike [09:01]

• His therapist reframes this as a new conversation with his audience, suggesting that people connect to Mike himself, not a single version.
• Bear and Mike acknowledge that fear of rejection underpins these worries – “just a new way for them to leave you.” [10:57]

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2. The Struggle to Hold and Express Opinions

[13:13 – 19:08]

• Mike confesses to being a classic people-pleaser, unable to stick to his opinions due to fawning and fear of abandonment.

  “It’s hard for me to have a definite opinion because of my people pleasing and fawning… someone says Doritos suck and I’m like, yeah, Doritos suck.” — Mike [13:13]

• Bear pokes fun with a story about Mike’s flip-flop on a Jack Harlow album—highlighting the disloyalty as a humorous but real symptom of deeper struggles.
• The conversation gets serious as they connect this pattern to childhood and the pressure to avoid social rejection:

  “It is emotionally embarrassing, but it is rooted in abandonment…and shame.” — Mike [16:56]

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3. Friendship, Support, and Feeling Unseen

[20:13 – 24:07]

• They dissect what makes a real friend and how lack of support stings, especially when old friends don’t acknowledge life milestones like a new book.
• Bear: “How does it feel realizing…that these people you call a friend haven’t even bought your book?” [20:18]
• For Mike, the pain isn’t about financial support but about lack of acknowledgment and connection, likening it to not being wished happy birthday.
• Both reflect on how everyone has their own “friendship barometer,” but the desire for acknowledgment persists.

• “That hurts—not even reaching out, not even acknowledgment.” — Mike [22:01]

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4. Reading & Dissecting “Tree Houses and Ghosts and Other Things that Haunt Us”

[26:11 – 48:48]

Book Excerpt Segment

[26:52 – 41:02, 49:15 – 61:55]

• Mike reads a personal story from his new book about childhood summers, friendship, and the blurred lines between affection, curiosity, and burgeoning sexuality.
• The story centers on two boys, their evolving friendship, and a poignant, uncertain first kiss.

  “Do you think ghosts stay because they’re lonely? …I don’t know, maybe.” — Mike reading [31:19]

• The friends reunite in adulthood, rekindling old emotions and reflecting on what might have been.
• Both hosts pause to analyze the narrative’s themes:
  • The universality of carrying unresolved feelings from childhood.
  • How love, longing, and regret can haunt us for decades.

Relatability & Diverging Experiences

• Bear admits that the story doesn’t match his childhood, having had a more conventional, less emotionally exploratory upbringing.
• They discuss childhood curiosity, gender roles, and how early emotional experiences shape adult identity.
• Mike: “It’s not really about same sex feelings. It’s this feeling you have with somebody…that’s electric in a way you can’t explain.” [36:22]
• Bear: “I’ve never been like, I wonder what it’d be like if I kissed them unless it was a female I was attracted to.” [47:51]

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5. Regret, Shame, and the Weight of Memory

[54:30 – 58:45]

• Both hosts reflect on how moments from youth and early adulthood can haunt us, especially when tied to regret or missed opportunities.
• Mike acknowledges that he still carries the shame of being a follower, not a leader, and hurting people unintentionally by prioritizing acceptance.

  “I participated…in things I regret. I wish I would’ve shown up better in those ways.” — Mike [56:00]

• Discussion on how to let go of that shame and whether it’s possible (“I don’t know how to let go of it…I just keep carrying it.” — Mike [57:45])

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6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On shifting expectations:
  “What if this is a new conversation you’re having with these people? Stop worrying about the expectations of old conversations.” — Mike’s therapist (quoted by Mike) [09:32]

• On people-pleasing:
  “It is emotionally embarrassing, but it is rooted in abandonment and shame.” — Mike [16:56]

• On friendship:
  “Not even reaching out, not even acknowledgement. That hurts.” — Mike [22:01]

• On childhood longing:
  “Do you think ghosts stay because they’re lonely?” — Book excerpt, Mike [31:19]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [05:58] – Start of main episode theme: Expectations and fear of letting others down
• [13:13] – Mike details the roots of his people-pleasing
• [20:13] – Discussion about meaningful friendship and pain of being overlooked
• [26:11] – Introduction to the book reading (“Tree Houses and Ghosts”)
• [31:19] – Pivotal scene: First kiss in the treehouse; quote about ghosts and loneliness
• [41:02] – Adult reunion in the story; reflecting on missed opportunities
• [54:30] – Reflection on regrets and “unfinished business” from youth
• [57:45] – Discussion on carrying/letting go of shame and regret
• [61:55] – End of content (before sponsor/ad section)

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Episode Tone and Style

• The conversation is honest and vulnerable but consistently framed by sarcasm, playful teasing, and irreverence (“I’m a naughty girl… Oh, I also am [ashamed], but, like…”).
• Bear often challenges or playfully undermines Mike’s self-disclosure, keeping the emotional honesty grounded — and sometimes deflecting with humor.
• Listener takeaway: You’ll hear two friends wrestling with the messy, lifelong work of figuring out who they are, why they’re afraid to show it, and how to carry regret, love, and longing—sometimes laughing more than crying.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want all the key themes and best lines—so you can skip the ads and intros, and get straight to the meat of “Secondhand Therapy” Episode #123.

Transcript

[Mike]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod if you're interested

[Bear]

in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[Mike]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[Bear]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[Mike]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[Bear]

All right, so here's the thing. That he already did it. Okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, here's what you do. You go to trypsychic source.com/sht10, okay? You're going to get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[Mike]

Okay, all right.

[Bear]

Talk about my love life.

[Mike]

Trying to see some. Some.

[Bear]

Maybe some road bumps, just seeing if it's gonna be clear skies, and it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just like a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're gonna do a medium.

[Mike]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Bear]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it and then DM us because I want to hear how it went.

[Mike]

Oh, I can't. I. Please, please DM us.

[Bear]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[Mike]

I want the tea.

[Bear]

Hello, my little bear cubs. And welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy. You just missed me getting the roasted out of me. Thank you for being here. We need to remind you that we are not therapists. We are not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way. Don't fucking forget it.

[Mike]

That's right.

[Bear]

You just heard an ad about a psychic. Get a reading.

[Mike]

Trust me, it'll fuck you up.

[Bear]

We got to talk about that next week.

[Mike]

Yeah, we do.

[Bear]

Your little clairvoyant that you're going to go to instead of your therapist.

[Mike]

Yeah, mine's all about love, baby. Yeah.

[Bear]

Um, if you want to support the podcast, we. We sure like it. Is what I said.

[Mike]

Yeah, we would. We just bought all new soundproofing for the room. Doesn't it sound.

[Bear]

Doesn't it sound proofed like we're sad?

[Mike]

Doesn't it Sound.

[Bear]

You can really hear the emotions now, right? I actually feel pretty good. I don't feel sad. If you'd like to support the podcast, that'd be great. You can do something with the sponsors. Psychic Source. Better help. Southern New Hampshire University. Just request some info. It's free and it helps the podcast anyway. We also have Patreon. Yeah.

[Mike]

For ad free episodes. You get early access to episodes. You get the behind the not behind the scenes, but the bonus.

[Bear]

Here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna go to patreon.com secondhand therapy pod. You can check out the tiers. The first tier, which is your early and ad free episodes. We're going to send you the greatest sticker ever made. The second tier, you get all of that plus access to our non therapy podcast, the other shit show. And we're going to send you a signed print. Greatest print ever made. Third tier, you get access to live streams and you also get a T shirt. There's a fourth tier. If you're ultra rich and would like to change our lives, do it.

[Mike]

Yes, please.

[Bear]

We also have merch available secondhand therapypod.com if you would like to get involved in some good things for some people, you can go to vasectomy farms.com portion of all that gets donated to women's reproductive resources.

[Mike]

You can also contact us. Don't I know I listen, I know that you don't like that part. I love that part.

[Bear]

All right, if you want to text us 818-850-2448. That's below you want to email us secondhandtherapypodgmail.com. that's below you want to talk about some business? Businessitpod.com. that's below.

[Mike]

It's below you. You know what I mean?

[Bear]

It's beneath. You can Send us mail P.O. box 230595, Las Vegas, NV 89105. That's below. Yeah, Polaroids and mixed CDs and recipes. That's what we like.

[Mike]

Ooh, I think that's it.

[Bear]

Who cares, dude?

[Mike]

Who gives off nobody? Everybody skips this part anyway.

[Bear]

So hey, if you're not on, if you're not on Patreon, you don't know that I sold the Corolla already. If you want to hear that story. And by sold it, I mean returned it in the middle of the night.

[Mike]

Oh my God.

[Bear]

So if you want to hear that story going on Patreon, it's on the other show. I'm going through it. I'm going through something.

[Mike]

Please, please join Patreon.

[Bear]

Just look at my new watch.

[Mike]

Okay?

[Bear]

I'm simplifying the out of my life, dude.

[Mike]

Yeah, look at your new old watch, Picassio. I'm aware.

[Bear]

It's new to me. Got a light? Look at it. That light up? Yeah. You want to see how long you hold your breath? Gotta stopwatch.

[Mike]

Thanks for being here. Let's get into it.

[Bear]

I've heard it's indestructible.

[Mike]

That's not what they say about cascios.

[Bear]

It's a G shock.

[Mike]

You can, you can swim in it. That doesn't make it indestructible.

[Bear]

I dare you to buggle, Ray J. Break it.

[Mike]

I dare you.

[Bear]

And I go. I don't care. All right, Play the music already. Jesus Christ. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Mike]

And welcome back secondhand therapy. And we know that I have been so stuck on, like, expectations of others that it's been really hard for me to enjoy the moment of how many pre solds have been out there and signing the book and the nice messages I've received and all these things I'm so caught up in again, like these ideas of number one. Like, is it enough?

[Bear]

What do you mean by expectations? The expectations of others.

[Mike]

The expectations of others. Right. Like so.

[Bear]

Well, don't say right because I don't know.

[Mike]

Well, I'm getting to it.

[Bear]

Okay.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Bear]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

So like, if people have been following me from stand up and they buy the book, then I bet they're like, this book better be funny.

[Bear]

Let's say those three people bought the book, then they need to think. First off, what?

[Mike]

This isn't the show. I'm. I'm going to change. I'm going to give you a little. A little tuneup. Okay. Shift gears.

[Bear]

So those thousands of people, those millions of people, those. I mean, tens of people.

[Mike]

Tens of people, they buy the book,

[Bear]

they're going to have comedy expectations.

[Mike]

Yeah, they're like this guy's. I, you know, I, I love his standup. Or I've. I saw him in, at the, at the Chuckle Barn and I gotta fucking. I gotta have his book. And so they get the book and they're like, well, this isn't funny at all.

[Bear]

Okay, hold on, I'm confused. Okay, they're following you from stand up?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Have they been in a coma since you stopped stand up until the book came out, buddy.

[Mike]

You would be surprised. I have had multiple conversations with comics about not doing stand up anymore and this and that, and I will see them again and they'll be like, so where are you headed? Yeah. Hey, nowhere, man. Yeah, we talked about this.

[Bear]

You've talked to you, right? Like, okay, a lot of it's not sticking.

[Mike]

Yeah. But I just mean, like, people in general, like, they, they know you for a thing and that's your thing. Maybe they don't know me from stand up. Maybe they know me from this, you know? Yeah. And so maybe their expectations are like, oh, I'm gonna get like this deeper idea. Or like, maybe this is like a really deep book or, you know, this or that. And like, it's not. It's also not that. And so are they going to be disappointed when they get it? And thinking that it's going to be kind of like a therapy book or talking about these deeper meanings of love and things and it's like, oh, no, it's not. It's also not that.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So, yeah. This idea of, like letting people down. Yeah.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And again, living up to expectations that I don't even know are real.

[Bear]

Yeah. Unspoken expectations.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bear]

Where you learned that

[Mike]

Papa nose?

[Bear]

Was it. Was it my mom?

[Mike]

Papa?

[Bear]

No, Papa was a mama. Yeah.

[Mike]

So I'm talking to my therapist about this about like these conversations that I've been having with people throughout my life, whether it be through stand up or little short videos or this or whatever my therapist hit me with. He said, what if this is a new conversation you're having with these people? Meaning, like, what if this is. Like, what if you're. Stop worrying about the expectations of old conversations and this is a new conversation that you're having. This is a new side of you that they are going to get to see. And he said, because these people that are pre ordering the book or messaging you or whatever, he's like, these people either already have a relationship with you or they want a relationship with you. And so it's not really even about the conversation, like, investing in this conversation. It's investing in me. They like what I have to say, whether it is stand up or therapy or whatever. Like, it's. It's more like that. And so, yeah, I've been thinking about it as like, oh, this is a. This is a new conversation that I'm having with them.

[Bear]

How's that feel?

[Mike]

Scary.

[Bear]

Yeah, Scary. Just a new way for them to leave you.

[Mike]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What if they.

[Bear]

What if they don't like this new conversation?

[Mike]

What if they don't like this conversation that we're having now?

[Bear]

And what if. What's the.

[Mike]

It's so hard to like, because he was also asking me about like, well, what is the difference from when you would do stand up? Like, how is this so different? These expectations or these reactions are like this feeling that you have about putting something out. And it really is like the majority of my life I've been sharing really personal stories, whether that is through comedy or that is here. They're all personal and it's all real and the book is fictional. It's like made up stories. So like, if you were like, hold

[Bear]

on, what do you mean by fictional? Oh, made up story. Thanks, dude. Thanks, bro. Thanks for helping me understand that.

[Mike]

I don't know why. I don't. Yeah, why?

[Bear]

I don't know, dude. He's been yapping for so long, I

[Mike]

was like, let me take him down a peg.

[Bear]

Let me merge in here with a shitty joke. I'm very sorry. I'm not that sorry about it, but I shouldn't have done it.

[Mike]

That's okay.

[Bear]

All right, so it's fictional. It's made up. It's not a biography.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

It's not a documentary. It's not a report.

[Mike]

That's right.

[Bear]

It's made up stories that are fictional. Onward.

[Mike]

So if I were to do stand up or hear or tell a story on here or whatever, and somebody's like, hey, man, that sucks. I don't like that.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Then I go, well, that's what happened. So you can either like it or don't like it, but that's what happened.

[Bear]

Yeah. So like, why can't you say the same thing?

[Mike]

That's the, that's the thing is like, because it's, it's made up. There's somebody's like, hey, that sucks. And be like, ah, yeah, I just made it up. Sorry.

[Bear]

Sorry.

[Mike]

I'm like, that's why I didn't like that. I just, I've thought about it.

[Bear]

Sorry.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Oh my God.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Why can't you say the same thing? Well, that's, that's the story.

[Mike]

Don't know what that disconnect is. I mean, I'm sure it has to do with value of opinion and value of thoughts and like all those things that root back to abandonment and people pleasing and all that stuff. Stuff. Right. Like, it's hard for me to have. It's hard for me to have like a definite opinion because of my people pleasing and fawning and everything else. Right. So, like, it's like, hey, do you like Doritos? I'm like, I love Doritos. You know, like, Doritos suck. And I'm like, yeah, Doritos. Suck, man. I don't know what I was thinking. It's hard for me to stick to being like, nah, Doritos suck.

[Bear]

I know. And I almost lit you the fuck up the other day because you did that shit to me, and I let it slide. What about what? You're going to be embarrassed.

[Mike]

Okay, timeout. Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes I am. I am able to get talked into things. I will change my mind.

[Bear]

Well, if you did. Nah.

[Mike]

But this is. This might be something different.

[Bear]

This is not one of those things. Because it wasn't a long conversation. Okay, now, I'm very sorry. I'm gonna put this out there.

[Mike]

Oh, no.

[Bear]

You were trying to sell me that this new Jack Harlow album is good.

[Mike]

I was not trying to say that it was good.

[Bear]

You said, have you heard it? And I said, I'm not gonna listen to it. And you said, kind of smacks. And then you played a song, and I said, oh, that's. That's absolute shit for my ears. And you went, yeah, I don't like it.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

And I had to walk away because otherwise

[Mike]

there.

[Bear]

No, no, no. Don't explain it. Don't talk your way out of it. It happened. Yeah.

[Mike]

There are a couple tracks on there to. Slap.

[Bear]

Nope. Sure aren't.

[Mike]

Sorry about it. Sorry about it.

[Bear]

The disloyalty in you right now.

[Mike]

There are.

[Bear]

Let me. Can I explain to you what you're doing?

[Mike]

I don't want to. Like the album. Couple tracks, Slap.

[Bear]

You want me to ruin it for you?

[Mike]

Sure.

[Bear]

All right. Jack Harlow.

[Mike]

He's terrible. I know.

[Bear]

Let me know if you want to hear what I have to say.

[Mike]

Sure.

[Bear]

Jack Harlow took a genre turn, right? Everybody expected him to go post Malone, go country rock, whatever. Instead of going for a post Malone vibe, he's trying to impinge on Mac Miller's vibe. And you're letting him.

[Mike]

Oh, I didn't get that from the album. I got a music Soul child. Bad. Yeah, I got a music Soul child thing. He's definitely just like. He's a culture vulture. That's why I don't. That's why I'm like. Couple tracks. Slap. I know it's not a good album. I know Jack Harlow's not good.

[Bear]

No, no.

[Mike]

Sorry about that. I. I'm aware that he's a culture vulture.

[Bear]

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Mike]

I am ashamed of myself.

[Bear]

No, over this I am.

[Mike]

Oh, I also am, but, like.

[Bear]

Okay, good. No. All right, go ahead. Suck.

[Mike]

Yeah. So it's hard for me to have an opinion or stick to an opinion.

[Bear]

Yeah. I've noticed.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Oh, drives me.

[Mike]

Yeah. But that.

[Bear]

Is it embarrassing? Like, when you make a statement and someone goes right, you're wrong as shit. And then you, like, what does it feel like to jerk the wheel back and, like, talk out of your. What you just said.

[Mike]

It is emotional embarrassing, but it is rooted in abandonment and it is rooted in. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Yeah.

[Bear]

What does it feel like in the moment?

[Mike]

Yeah. Abandoned or embarrassment and shame.

[Bear]

Yeah. But you just. You plow through that embarrassment and shame to save from the feeling of the risk of abandonment.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Poof.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

What if they abandon you because you can't have an opinion? What's your plan then? Genius.

[Mike]

I'd be like, yeah, you should leave. I'll just champion whatever they're doing.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. That's a good. Hey, I would do the same thing. Yeah.

[Bear]

He is so supportive.

[Mike]

You're doing the right thing.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Me, like, I kind of like this guy. Again, you can hang around.

[Bear]

That is so crazy.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Wow.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bear]

I don't think if there's anything like that. If I had an opinion and someone disagreed, I'd be like, well, I would. I would more likely just say be like, okay. Change my mind. I don't know, man. Yeah. I can't just be flip flopping.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Because who am I? I'm just. Hey.

[Mike]

Yep. Hey. And there it is.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. That's the question I've been trying to answer for.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Hot minute.

[Bear]

Yeah. Trying to find identity. Mm.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

How's it going?

[Mike]

Getting better.

[Bear]

Who are you?

[Mike]

I don't know.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Getting better.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

In what way?

[Mike]

I find myself. I find myself having opinions now. I find myself. And we've talked about this before, but, like, saying no, I found myself, like, saying no more. I find myself.

[Bear]

You find that gives you a sense of identity?

[Mike]

Yeah. I feel like it chisels down to more of, like, who I am or who I want to be rather than just going with the flow or being, like, bendable or. Giving in. I find myself not giving in as much.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. And I think that's. I think that's what my therapist was getting at, too, about, like, giving into these expectations and giving into these ideas. Like, I. There's nothing I can do about it. Somebody gets the book and they're like, this sucks. Like, okay.

[Bear]

They're also probably not going to tell you.

[Mike]

I know.

[Bear]

You know.

[Mike]

Hey, man. The Internet. The Internet.

[Bear]

Let me ask you a question.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

You keep a lot of friends, especially back home on the road of all these people that you call a Friend. How many of them award your book? Mm.

[Mike]

I think. Well, define ordered. No, like, back home, like, people I

[Bear]

grew up with or whoever. You're saying, that's my friend. And I go, why are they in your life? You're like, that's my friend. Those people, all million of them, zero. Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bear]

How does that feel realizing? Did you ever realize that before right now? How does it feel realizing that?

[Mike]

I think I'm used to it just because I did stand it for so long. That, like, people always are. Like, we're coming to the show. And you go, yeah, yeah.

[Bear]

How does it feel realizing it? I know you're used to it, but what's the feeling that you're so used to?

[Mike]

Hurts.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Does it feel like they're your friend?

[Mike]

I'm basing it more on not buying the book, but even mentioning anything.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

That hurts. Like, whether they buy a book or not. Like, whatever, but whether. Like, not even support.

[Bear]

Support your friend.

[Mike]

Yeah. Not even reaching out like that Support. Not even reaching out to, like, hey, I saw this thing. And, like, because it's been unavoidable, I've been posting about it like crazy.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like, even if we don't talk, it's on your feed. And so, yeah. Not that that hurts is not even acknowledgement.

[Bear]

Yeah. And what I asked was, does that feel like they're your friend?

[Mike]

That. That part doesn't.

[Bear]

Which part does without them needing you?

[Mike]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

You look. You got real sad real quick. Is it bad over there?

[Mike]

No, I was just thinking of, like, I'm trying to go back and forth in my head about, like, what. What is it of. Of value? And the value to me is when we do talk and when we do see each other, like, there's a lot of value in that.

[Bear]

So.

[Mike]

And I don't know if that's right or wrong of, like, I don't know where that is on the barometer of friendship, you know, of, like.

[Bear]

Like, everybody has their own barometer.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah. This isn't the same, but it's like, the only thing I can compare it to is, like, You know, you don't have to wish me a happy birthday, but it'd be nice if we've been friends for a long time. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not expecting you to. You don't have to. But, like, be nice.

[Bear]

You didn't know my birthday until we started this podcast, you piece of.

[Mike]

And that's what I'm saying is, like, it's not the same. It's not this. I'm just saying on most people, birthdays matter to them. And so I'm trying to come up with something that is not like your best friend, artist, product kind of thing.

[Bear]

Yeah, Good friend.

[Mike]

Not a bad friend for not knowing your birthday.

[Bear]

Be nice. To quote you. Sure be nice. Well, it would sure be nice. When's my birthday?

[Mike]

In April. So I'm going to read a little.

[Bear]

When's Brad Garrett's birthday?

[Mike]

I couldn't tell you. It's weird.

[Bear]

We have the same birthday.

[Mike]

April.

[Bear]

That was cheating.

[Mike]

I know we talk about betterhelp a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[Bear]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[Mike]

I'm using Better Help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[Bear]

Yeah, yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[Mike]

Not a good fit. Hey. And that happens. Finding good therapist is like a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[Bear]

And you're married now.

[Mike]

Oh, no. Never. Never.

[Bear]

You're in love now.

[Mike]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[Bear]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[Mike]

Absolutely not.

[Bear]

Let's do one together.

[Mike]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp. I'll do it.

[Bear]

You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you? Dude, you think I'm not going to walk out with the trophy. A couple st.

[Mike]

I know you will.

[Bear]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor. And if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhand therapy. We love you guys.

[Mike]

So I thought I would. I thought I would read something from

[Bear]

Nah, Pass the book.

[Mike]

I know you'd hate it. I thought I'd read a story from the book and then we can unpack it.

[Bear]

Let's unpack it as you read.

[Mike]

Okay?

[Bear]

Okay. Let me read it.

[Mike]

You want to read it? No, you can.

[Bear]

I know. Fuck was that? I think you could figure it out.

[Mike]

Okay, so this is a story I'm choosing.

[Bear]

What page is it on?

[Mike]

21.

[Bear]

Okay.

[Mike]

So if you're at home with.

[Bear]

Pretty early on.

[Mike]

If you're at home with the book, you can read along with us.

[Bear]

Okay. If you can.

[Mike]

It's called Tree Houses and Ghosts and Other Things that Haunt Us.

[Bear]

Long title.

[Mike]

They all are. You done?

[Bear]

Page 21. Treehouses, ghosts and Other Things that Haunt Us. Yeah, let's dive in. Should we? I mean, my God, let's go.

[Mike]

For six months, the pond was the center of your universe. It wasn't much to look at. It was muddy and overrun with cattails, its edges littered with. Why? Why? Why? Already so dramatic.

[Bear]

How?

[Mike]

I'm just reading.

[Bear]

Yeah, but you're doing it like Sam Elliot or some shit.

[Mike]

What do you mean? This is how I read.

[Bear]

All right?

[Mike]

This is. How do you want me to re. I can really do it up. If you like me to really do it up.

[Bear]

Start it and let's hear that. And I'll tell you which one I want to go forward with.

[Mike]

Alright, here's. Here it is.

[Bear]

All right. Give me the title.

[Mike]

In this new character, Treehouses and Ghosts and Other Things that Haunt Us. For six months, the pond was the center of your universe. It wasn't much to look at. It was muddy and overrun with cattails, its edges littered with empty soda cans and the occasional abandoned flip flop. But to you and Jamie, it was your own private haven. Okay.

[Bear]

Yeah, I like the purse way better.

[Mike]

See? Yeah. It was your own private haven. No girls or parents allowed. The kind of place that could only exist when you were young. A time when you still believed in all of life's little lies. But you were old enough to know how to keep a secret from the adults. Your parents had bought a joining son of properties at the same time. Back when buying lakefront property seemed like an achievable dream rather than the last grasp at middle class ambition. They were the sort of parents who called it a getaway, even though it was an hour outside of the city and the mosquitoes were fucking relentless. But they never came to the pond. The first summer, you were eight and Jamie was nine. And your friendship was tentative, built on shared shyness and proximity. By the second summer, you had a routine. Days began at the pond. Knees scraped up from clamming onto the tire swings. Afternoons were spent fishing with no intention of catching anything, and evenings brought ghost stories in the treehouse where you try not to laugh at Jamie's exaggerated delivery of dirty jokes he regurgitated and half understood from his older siblings. By the third summer it was like no one else existed. Jamie with his wild pearls and laugh that could shatter the quiet of the humid afternoon, and you with your ever expanding list of secret handshakes and ridiculous inside jokes, you became a single inseparable unit. Your parents, looking on from lawn chairs, called it cute and you bristled at the word, though you couldn't explain why. The summers melted into each other like popsicles left out into the sun. By the fifth summer there were undercurrents of something else, something unnamed. Jamie had gotten taller, his laugh a little softer, his smile sharper now. You caught yourself watching him as you climbed the treehouse ladder, the muscles on his arms flexing, Jamie getting thick quickly looking away. But you didn't talk about that. You didn't talk about the ending either, though you knew it was coming. By the sixth summer, Jamie's parents were making noises about renting out the property, about how the upkeep was too much and Jamie's siblings had outgrown the lake. You avoided the subject like you avoided the deeper parts of the pond, somewhere you'd surely drown if you stayed too long. On the last day of the last summer, you sat in the treehouse watching the sun dip over the water. Jamie was flipping through an old book of ghost stories, his fingers tracing the margins where you both doodled little stick figure monsters over the years. Neither of you said anything. The air between you felt thick, like it was holding its breath too. Jamie closed the book, letting it fall into the space between you. Do you think ghosts stay because they're lonely? He asked, his voice quiet like he never heard it before. You turned to look at him, your heart doing that strange fluttering thing it had started doing that summer, the thing you didn't understand but couldn't ignore. I don't know, you said. Maybe Jamie's eyes met yours. The sound of crickets and the distant hum of your parents conversation on the porch blurred into silence. There was just Jamie and you, suspended between wanting and fearing. I'm gonna miss this, jamie said, barely above a whisper. I'm gonna miss you. Your throat tightened, words stuck somewhere in the back of it. You wanted to say, I'll miss you too. You wanted to say a million things, but you didn't know how to say yet. Instead you leaned in hesitantly like testing the edge of a diving board. Jamie didn't move. And then he did, his breath catching as your face tilted towards his. You met somewhere in the middle.

[Bear]

Uh oh.

[Mike]

The kiss was soft.

[Bear]

Oh boy.

[Mike]

Unsure and too brief. It wasn't like in the movies. There were no fireworks, just the press of limps against lips.

[Bear]

I am a naughty girl.

[Mike]

When you pulled back, Jamie's eyes were wide, his cheeks flushed. You were pretty sure that you looked the same. Sorry, you said automatically, even though you weren't sorry at all. Jamie shook his head quickly. Don't be. I liked it. And then the moment broke, the weight of it too much for either one of you to hold. Jamie picked up his book again, flipping it open to a random page, his hands trembling. You looked back at the window, staring out of the pond. Pause.

[Bear]

I'm still genderless here. Yeah. Did I miss something?

[Mike]

Two boys,

[Bear]

but that's not given yet.

[Mike]

Yeah, it says no girls or no girls or parents allowed towards the beginning of the story.

[Bear]

Okay.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

All right. So I'm not a naughty little girl.

[Mike]

You are not.

[Bear]

Okay, so first kiss. You think you wrote it?

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

[Bear]

Ooh.

[Mike]

First kiss with your semi best friend. You spend your summers with them, but you don't see them the rest of the year.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

I'm a little gay boy. Maybe it's too early. We don't know.

[Mike]

We don't know. I think. I mean, I know what I was going for when I was writing. This was like this idea that like, anything could happen when it was the summertime. Like growing up. Yeah. Growing up. There were no rules in the summer. Like, school's out, friends can. You can stay up later. Like friends are staying the night. Like you're out. Like you're just out until the sun goes down. And the sun doesn't go down till like 8:30, 9 o' clock at night. In the summer? Yeah.

[Bear]

We didn't have daylight savings in Arizona. Yeah. And also none of that happened to me, really. I mean, we could stay up later,

[Mike]

but what were your summers like?

[Bear]

We were in like a school program.

[Mike]

A school program?

[Bear]

Yeah. My mom was working, bro. Until we were old enough to stay home alone. Like we went to a summer program.

[Mike]

Oh my God.

[Bear]

Yeah, it was like summer school, but it wasn't about education. It was like,

[Mike]

buddy.

[Bear]

Yeah. I've never been to camp. I've never, like, until. Yeah. Until we were old enough to stay alone. Stay home alone.

[Mike]

What age is that? 15? 14?

[Bear]

No, I think it was probably middle school.

[Mike]

12.

[Bear]

Yeah. Something like that. Mm.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Bear]

I think the summer before middle school was the first time I remember like staying home alone maybe before that.

[Mike]

And I don't remember, but what were your friends doing? Like they. Were they at this? Like, I don't.

[Bear]

I'll see them next year, bro. That's wild. Yeah. I mean we would see each other like if somebody had a birthday and a sleepover and stuff like that.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Like also, Tucson's not that small. Like we can't walk to each other's houses and.

[Mike]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Everybody lived, you know, pretty close within a 10 mile radius.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Everybody was always at each other's house, especially my house. Mainly we had a pool and a giant yard. Two yards. Because my grandma lived next door. So we had two fields. We. Like two and a half acres. And a pool. Yeah. And a trampoline.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And so he would over there all the time. And so the summers it was just lawless. Like you were just.

[Bear]

Oh yeah. We had. In the backyard was. We had a patio and then there was like dead grass and that was it. There's a fig tree.

[Mike]

That's so crazy. Dude.

[Bear]

We had a fig tree. And then in the fridge we had Safeway select brand diet soda.

[Mike]

Black Cherry. You're like Michael Jackson. You didn't have a childhood.

[Bear]

Hey, man. Yeah, I don't. None of this. This does not ring true to me.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Bear]

Yeah. And I went to Catholic school, so I.

[Mike]

Even if no gays allowed.

[Bear]

Correct.

[Mike]

Unless they're the teacher.

[Bear]

Unless they're running the maps. Yeah. So even I don't have any recollection of having any curiosity toward other males.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Sexual in any way that I recollect. Maybe there was. I don't know. I do remember I saw a girl's boob through her shirt sleeve and got rock hard. And that was in fifth grade.

[Mike]

That's what else I was gonna say. It's not really about same sex feelings. It's just more about curiosity in general and about like this feeling that you have with somebody that is electric in a way that you can't explain.

[Bear]

I never had that with a male friend.

[Mike]

What about feet? Was there somebody in your friend group that was female that you were like. God, that would be interesting. Like with. Not like a traditional crutch. A crush.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Somebody that was more of a friend, but then one. At some point. Maybe not even all the time, but at some point it shifted and you were like, I wonder what it'd be like to kiss them.

[Bear]

I mean.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Any of my female friends for sure.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Yeah. Never any of my male friends. There was. I did have one male friend. We tried to jerk off once. You want me tell you that story?

[Mike]

I like how you jump from, like, I ain't in the Kissing dudes now. Jerking off.

[Bear]

So here's what happened.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Bear]

All right. So this would. This would have been probably fourth or fifth grade. No. Which is 12th grade. You're 18, so you add six years. So fourth or fifth grade, 10 or 11. Okay.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Bear]

And he was one of my better friends, but we had. He had video games, and I didn't. So I got to play video games at his house. But he. He also was allowed to watch wrestling, and I wasn't. So I remember one time I asked him, I was like, triple H. I was like, is that. Does that stand for Hollywood? Hulk Hogan? And he looked at me like I was the dumbest motherfucker.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

And I never asked about wrestling again, but he showed me. Was it Tom Everett Scott movie, American Werewolf in Paris?

[Mike]

Maybe in London. Yeah.

[Bear]

American World from London.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Bear]

There's a topless scene in that movie. And I remember that. And I was like, hang on a goddamn minute. Play it again. And then.

[Mike]

Who cares about this werewolf? Yeah.

[Bear]

A werewolf. Where? What?

[Mike]

Huh? Yeah.

[Bear]

And then. Yeah, it was that night. His mom was sleeping, and we were out there, and we were just, like, watching that scene over and over and over again.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

And then I think he asked me if I've ever jerked off before. And I was like, no. And he's like, you want to try? And I was like, okay. And so we walled up, couch cushions in between us so we couldn't see each other.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

And then we just watched this scene, and I play with my little wiener and. Hey, nothing happened, you know?

[Mike]

Yeah. It's so interesting. Yeah. I think. I think there's so much curiosity and so much sexual energy that we don't know what to do with at that age. I don't know. I can't speak for women, but as dudes, like, especially, like. It's just like, what? Like you said, like nothing happened. But you don't know that. You're just like, well, what this thing is? Yeah. This thing's doing something.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And I don't know. Yeah.

[Bear]

It gets. It gets hard all the time.

[Mike]

Yeah. And. And then there's these feelings of.

[Bear]

I knew that for sure.

[Mike]

There's like, feelings of what feels like love sometimes or lust.

[Bear]

I didn't have that till high school.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah. As you get older. Yeah. Like these. These Other feelings start to write. And yeah, it's like, but it really doesn't belong anywhere yet. You know, I think there's this gray area where it's just curiosity, you know what I mean? It's not pointed yet. It's just curiosity.

[Bear]

About what?

[Mike]

Love, sex, energy, it doesn't matter. I think that's the confusion. Right. Because like even if you were to. I think as men we are, we get shamed into having some of that curiosity and so I think it gets bottled up or it doesn't or we act like it's not there.

[Bear]

I don't know that I agree with that. Really? Yeah.

[Mike]

I think back when like not again, like before it's targeted before, you know, like, oh, I like girls.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like there is like this weird, you're just feeling feelings you just have like even if it is like one of your guy friends, you're like, oh, I like spending time with Tony.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And like there is, that is love. There is love there. You have love for Tony. Whether it is sexual or not. There is this energy between the two of you that you enjoy each other's company. You're having conversations or you're staying up late with them or you're doing whatever. Like that's love. And it's not, it's not point. But you're not old enough to point it at anything yet. It's just love and curiosity that he doesn't really know where to go or what you what to do with it. And I think in this moment, in this treehouse moment when he's been watching Jamie and he's been falling in love with him, he doesn't know what to do with those feelings. He doesn't know, he doesn't know where to point it yet. And the kiss, I understand what you

[Bear]

mean by point it.

[Mike]

Like, like once, you know, like I like girls, then you point. Then you actively start pointing that energy or that your efforts towards them. I'm going to ask Jennifer out or I'm going to kiss Susie on the playground or I'm going to do like there's, there's actionable things that are in place. That's what I mean by pointed. But before you really understand it, you don't know how to execute anything. You just have these feelings of like I like Tony, Jennifer's cute, Mrs. Johnson is nice, you know what I mean? Like you have these curiosities, they're so open ended that you don't really know what they are yet. And then you get a little older and then you know how to point them. And then you're like, oh, yeah, like, I really like Ashley. You know, Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna see what she's doing after school.

[Bear]

I think you might be bisexual.

[Mike]

Foreign.

[Bear]

I'm not even joking. That is not my experience at all. You know how I keep telling you I'm doing a psychology class? Doing it.

[Mike]

All right. Okay. Are you really?

[Bear]

I'm really doing it, dude. Our new sponsor, Southern New Hampshire University, found some classes, bro.

[Mike]

Oh, you fancy now, bruh?

[Bear]

I'm out here.

[Mike]

He's a schoolboy.

[Bear]

Hey, and here's the thing. If you're like me and you're just like, dude, I like learning stuff sometimes. Snhu, go learn some stuff. If you were like me in the past, maybe you feel a little stuck in your career. You want to start a new thing. Snhu, what about you?

[Mike]

I mean, I love to learn.

[Bear]

Oh, God, he's never learned.

[Mike]

I need to. I need to do it more officially.

[Bear]

You never learned a thing anyway. If you want to check out SNHU and you want to see what kind of programs they have, you can go to Snhu Edu Sht. And you can request more information. It costs nothing to request more information. It's a great way to support the podcast. Learn some stuff, start a new career. Do whatever you need. Go back to school. Snhu. Edu Sht. There's also a link in the episode description. Get some info. Start some learning. You're welcome.

[Mike]

Not. Not love in a sexual way Again. It was never like, love in a sexual way.

[Bear]

I've always had a pretty. To my recollection. Yeah, I've always had a pretty clear understanding of how I felt toward people.

[Mike]

I also have, but, I mean,

[Bear]

there was never a. Like, a. Unsure of, like, why do I like them or what do I like? I've always known that.

[Mike]

Yeah. When I'm saying it, like, Nine years old, you're not like, I want to fuck Amy. Like, you don't know that. Like, this is before those actionable things. This is like in that moment before where you're just like, oh, I like spending time with Tony. I like spending time with Ashley. Like, these are two, and there's not a real difference there. You just like both of them. Or you like that idea of spending time. It's about time and energy and, like, conversation and things like that. That is love before love. I think it's the same thing, too, with kids with race. Right? Like. Like, they don't know how to be racist or anything like that. They just know that, like, I like hanging out with Tony. They don't know that Tony is black or Mexican or anything like that. They're just like, I like Tony. Yeah, same thing. And then maybe they get a little older and they get taught racism or this is that. And then they're like, oh, now. Now they have, like, this action that's, like, targetable or, like, I don't like Tony, or I don't like this or whatever. I think it's the same thing with. That's similar with love.

[Bear]

Right.

[Mike]

You go through this period where it's just like, I like this person, I like this person. I don't know. I just. I dislike them. And then you learn about kissing and things like that. You learn about, like, love and sex and these things, and it becomes targeted. And then you like.

[Bear]

So these are. These are two gay men. No, that's where you're losing me,

[Mike]

because these are. These are. This is that. This is that moment where that curiosity is about to shift. You're shifting from. It's that. It's that summer as things are shifting into, like, I like. I like Jamie. I don't. I don't know what it is. I can't name it yet, but I like Jamie. And I'm just starting to learn about love and sex and these things. So, like, I'm just learning about kissing and things. So, like, what happens if I kiss Jamie? Because I like Jamie. I like spending time with him. I like doing this. I like doing. So it's like. It's that summer as curiosity is, like, melting into targeting. All right, Makes sense.

[Bear]

Nope, go ahead.

[Mike]

It's black and white for you, huh?

[Bear]

It's not black and white. I just don't relate to it.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

I don't recall having that mindset or. Yeah, those types of blurred lines or unclear feelings.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bear]

I've never.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

I've never been like, I wonder what would be like if I kissed them unless it was a female that I was, like, attracted to.

[Mike]

Yes. But before you knew about kissing.

[Bear]

Hey, before that.

[Mike]

Nope.

[Bear]

Never thought about.

[Mike]

Never thought about love or connection or energy or anything.

[Bear]

No, I was just living my life, dude. Just playing basketball and fucking eating nuggets, bro. I'm thinking about smooching. Dude,

[Mike]

that's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. I had friends that I loved hanging out with growing up. Yeah, same. Yeah.

[Bear]

It was never more of a thought than that.

[Mike]

Right. Yeah, we're saying the same. We're so close.

[Bear]

I don't think so. Because you're saying, yeah, I just. I love. They were my friend. I'm like, yeah, they were my friend. Like, but what if you wanted to kiss them? I'm like, I didn't.

[Mike]

No, that was never the thing. It was that again. That was like before you knew what love and sex was. You still knew what love was, but it was just. It didn't have a target yet. We.

[Bear]

I think maybe our age differences coming in.

[Mike]

Maybe.

[Bear]

I don't know.

[Mike]

Keep reading anyways.

[Bear]

Yeah, let's hear about these gay kids.

[Mike]

When the goodbye finally came, it was quick and awkward. A hug that ended too soon, promises to write that neither one of you intended to keep. And then Jamie was gone, and the pond, the summers, and the world you'd built together became something you only visited in your mind. You're 42 when you finally see Jamie again. You're standing the aisle of a tiny gas station just outside the old lake town, staring at a rack of chips as if these 240 calories are the things holding you back from the ultimate physique. The clerk is squinting at you like you're lost, which you kind of are, because you haven't been back here in years. Your mother passed away two months ago. The property sold quicker than you expected to a family that called it quaint in a way that made you want to punch something. You're back now to finalize the paperwork to say goodbye to a place that you thought you'd forgotten, but you haven't really. Hey. The voice pulls you out of your thoughts. You turn, and there he is. Jamie. Older, grayer, but still him. Still Jamie. Hey. You say. Your mouth dry. You're back. Yeah, you say. What?

[Bear]

I just want to make a joke about his dry mouth.

[Mike]

When I said older, grayer, I thought you were gonna interrupt me there.

[Bear]

No?

[Mike]

Good for you.

[Bear]

What'd you think I was gonna say?

[Mike]

Gayer? Oh, good for you.

[Bear]

Thanks, man.

[Mike]

I'm not.

[Bear]

I'm not anti gay.

[Mike]

I know you're not.

[Bear]

Jamie's a big old gay guy. What do you want me to do? I'm just kidding.

[Mike]

Yeah, you say sell him the place. You. Jamie shifts, suddenly sheepish. Same dad passed last year, finally getting around to. Well, you get it. There's a pause, the kind that could stretch out forever or snap in an instant. Jamie's eyes flick towards the door. You want to grab a coffee or something? You end up back at the diner downtown, the one that used to serve the best pancakes, but now it feels like it's just held together by sheer willpower and a few rolls of duct tape. You sit across from each other in a booth that squeaks when you move, and for a moment you're eight years old again, sharing french fries and secrets. Jamie's start. Jamie talks about his job, something with numbers that he downplays but you know he's good at. You talk about your ex wife, how the divorce wasn't anyone's fault but still messy. Do you ever think about the treehouse? Jamie asked suddenly, his voice cutting through the soft platter of the diner around you. It's casual, but his eyes betray him, flickering up to meet yours a fraction too long. Sometimes, you admit, your voice steady even though your heart has other ideas. You Jamie smiles a little wistfully all the time, and there it is, this thing that's been quietly sitting at this table since you bumped into each other a few hours ago. You stir your coffee for no other reasons than to keep your hands busy, the spoon clinking against the porcelain too loudly in the quiet between you. You think about the summers you shared, about the sunburned skin, the mosquito bites, and the way Jamie laughed when you tried to tell a dirty joke but couldn't get through it without turning red. You think about the kiss, how it was soft, fleeting, like it never actually happened, but it did. Do you ever? Jamie starts, then stops, his words catching on something. He shakes his head, laughing softly, nervously. Never mind. No, say it. You lean forward, your voice softer now, the kind of soft you reserve for delicate things like baby birds and prayers before bed. Jamie looks at you, his gaze steady, but his hands fidgeting with the edges of a napkin. Do you ever wonder what might have happened if we, I don't know. Stayed? Stayed, you repeat, as if the word is foreign. Stayed in each other's lives, Jamie clarifies, if we hadn't just let go. You exhale slowly. Yeah, you say finally. I do think about that. Jamie nods, a slight, almost invisible movement, and then he laughs. But it's not a happy laugh. It's the kind of laugh that hides how he's really feeling. I've thought about that day, our last day, more times than I care to admit, and not just the kiss, but everything, how everything was easy with you. Your chest tightens. Jamie. I'm not saying this to make it weird, he cuts in quickly, holding up his hand. I'm not. I just. I don't know. I guess I've spent a lot of time pretending these feelings didn't exist. And now here you are, sitting across from me and I don't know. It feels like the universe is asking me to stop pretending. You don't know what to say to that. The spark is still there. You can feel it. But it's not the wildfire that once was. It's smaller now, quieter. I've never acted on it. You sheepishly admit. After you, I mean. I never let myself feel that way about anyone else. Jamie looks at you, his eyes soft, understanding. Me neither. You both fall into a silence. You were two grown men sitting across from each other in a shitty diner in the middle of nowhere, grappling with something you've both carried for decades and you still don't know what to do with it. I like this idea too. If you take out the sexuality of it, this idea of carrying something with you, whoever that is, that you really don't know what to do with for the majority of your fucking life. Something that happened to you when you were a kid, some kind of event or something like that, like, man, I think that is so relatable. Do you agree with that?

[Bear]

Yeah, I'm trying to think if I have anything that I can connect to that. I mean, I'm sure I do because I kind of. The way I live now is. I don't want to wonder, But I don't have any. Any of those. When I was younger. Yeah, I have a lot of those from my 20s. Ooh, yeah, yeah,

[Mike]

yeah. You. Oh, I have so many. I regret so much. I think about things all the time. I wish I could have do over so many different times in my life.

[Bear]

From when you were young.

[Mike]

When I was young, yeah, yeah. Also in my twenties. Yeah, but mainly. Yeah, mainly high school, I think about high school. I don't want to say I think about it a lot, but that's where a lot of it is. These moments where you're like, I don't know, I just was not. I was not a good person when I was young.

[Bear]

Meaning what?

[Mike]

I don't know, I just. I was a follower and not a leader and so. And I was trying to fit in and so even though it wasn't in my nature to pick on people or do whatever, like I rolled with people who did and that was. That was the thing. So I participated in things like that. And I regret that the way I. There's a couple relationships there when you're young, you don't know what you're doing kind of thing and like, I wish I would have shown up better in those ways. I mean, I've talked about this on here before but like I Used to roll the guys who like to fight. I don't like. That's not who I am.

[Bear]

You act like it is. Yeah, but that's. Hey, you still act like it is.

[Mike]

No, I get angry sometimes.

[Bear]

I'll put your face in your lap, bro.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah. Do it. Yeah.

[Bear]

Go ahead.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's all. That's all. Fight Mike. That's. Yeah, that's all. Hometown Mike.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. I don't like him.

[Bear]

I got something to prove.

[Mike]

Yeah. I don't like him.

[Bear]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. Things like that, man. Carrying all that with me and there. I don't know where it goes. I don't know. I don't know what to do with it, you know, besides carry it. Yeah. I don't know how to Leg. I don't know how to. I don't know where to put it down at.

[Bear]

Put what down?

[Mike]

Just everything. I just named.

[Bear]

How do you put it down?

[Mike]

I don't know. I mean, like the idea of letting go of it. Like, I don't know how to let go of it.

[Bear]

Let go of it. In the way of the shame.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The regret shame, you know? Right. Yeah. I don't. Fuck. Yeah. I don't know where it goes. I'll just keep carrying it.

[Bear]

Doesn't sound like you're carrying it.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Sounds like you're running from it.

[Mike]

Oof. I don't know. It feels pretty heavy. Yeah.

[Bear]

Yeah. Things feel heavy when you're tired.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Bear]

Yeah,

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these. These two guys that have been carrying this.

[Bear]

Yeah, no, no. Run back into the book. Finish up. She's a track star.

[Mike]

I'm gonna skip a little ahead because we're on a little bit of a time crunch here.

[Bear]

We're not. Literally not. People can stop listening whenever they want.

[Mike]

Okay, finish the story. Maybe we don't have to figure it out right now, Jamie says finally. Maybe it's okay to just feel it. You nod, and for the first time in years, you allow yourself to feel the weight of it. You don't know what comes next. Maybe you don't need to. For now, it's just enough to sit here with Jamie. When you leave the diner, the air is cold and sharp, the kind of November chill that bites through your coat. Take care, Jamie says as he leans in for a hug. You watch Jamie as he walks to his car and out of your life for the second time. Something stirs inside you, an impulse. Reckless, a little ridiculous, but alive. Hey, Jamie, you say, your voice cutting through like a half empty parking lot. The old diner. Yeah. Jamie. Jamie tilts his head, curious. Do you want to go to the pond? He blinks, surprised. The pond. It's November, so it's freezing. So? You say again, a grin tugging at the corners of your mouth, and for a moment you swear you see the spark of the Jamie you used to know, the Jamie who dared you to climb higher, to dive deeper, to live. Louder. Jamie laughs, shaking his head, but there's no protest in it. You're insane. You coming or not? The water is dark and still, a mirror reflecting the barren of ember trees. The air bites at your skin, but you don't fucking care. You kick your shoes off, shivering as you peel off your clothes. Jamie does the same, grinning like a fool, his breath puffing out in clouds. This is stupid, he says, but he's already halfway to the edge. On three, you say, standing side by side at the water's edge, but both of you barefoot and ridiculous.

[Bear]

One.

[Mike]

Jamie counts. Two. You echo your voice, your voice trembling not from the cold but from something bigger. 3. You both shout, and then you're leaping, the air rushing past you, your heart pounding like it hasn't in years. The water hits you like a slap, icy, shocking, and so goddamn real for a second you think you might die. Your lungs seize and your muscles scream, and then you break the surface, gasping and laughing like an idiot. Jamie pops his head up beside you, his hair still plastered to his face. He's also laughing, loud, unrestrained sound that makes your chest ache in the best way. Holy, it's cold. Jamie shouts, his teeth chattering. Duh. You yell back, playfully, grinning so wide it hurts. You tread water together, the pond rippling around you, the cold biting into your skin for a moment. Your kids again, two boys who didn't know what they were feeling but felt it all the same. You don't talk about what it all means, not here, not now. Your eyes meet again, the way they used to in the treehouse, back when the world was smaller and the summers felt endless. A grin spreads across your face, wide and mischievous. You nod toward Jamie, water dripping from your hair. Hey. You shout, your voice still playful. You want to hear a ghost story?

[Bear]

And we know that Jus that's a bear. It's not.

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