I'm In The Business of Misery | #139

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy – Episode #139: "I'm In The Business of Misery"

Released: July 27, 2026
Hosts: Michael Malone & Louie Paoletti
Guest: Velvet Tiger (author)

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Episode Overview

In this candid, emotionally charged episode, hosts Michael and Louie dive deep into the struggles of emotional self-sabotage, anxiety, codependency, grief, and the sticky residue of childhood dynamics in adult relationships. The title, “I’m In The Business of Misery,” reflects a frank conversation about why feeling bad can feel “like home” and how hard it is to embrace happiness after trauma, especially when grief and guilt seem ever-present. Throughout, the duo blend their trademark dark humor with vulnerability, reflecting on recent therapy breakthroughs, uncomfortable truths, and the process of unlearning old, self-destructive habits.

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Major Themes & Discussion Points

1. Self-Sabotage & The Comfort of Misery

Timestamps: 12:46 – 16:34

• Michael shares about feeling at home in chaos and self-sabotage in relationships:

  “When they get scared, their instinct is to like, burn everything down, or run away...the ultimate goal is they get to feel bad about themselves. And that feels like home.” (12:46 – Michael)

• He recognizes, through group recovery hangouts, that he’s drawn to cycles where negative feelings are familiar, safe, and even rewarding:

  “My default—self-sabotage or feeling bad about yourself—being safe.” (14:02 – Michael & Louie)

2. Fear of Abandonment, Not Being “Enough,” and Relationships

Timestamps: 14:23 – 21:25

• Michael explains how intimacy triggers a primal fear of abandonment stemming from insecurity:

  “I was afraid that I wasn't going to be able to keep up with her in the long run...So rather than staying with her...I'll blow things up now and run away and hurt myself before she has a chance to do it.” (15:45 – Michael)

• Louie questions the need to “keep up,” pointing to unspoken pressures:

  “Who says she needs you to?” (24:25 – Louie)

3. Recognition of Old Patterns & Struggles with Change

Timestamps: 17:04 – 20:57

• Michael notices the difference between how recovery community members and his close friends support change—one with encouragement, one (often Louie) with tough, sometimes detached love.

  “I'm excited for you, man. It sounds like you're on your way.” (19:26 – Michael quoting a peer)
  “That sounds better than what I said.” (19:45 – Louie)

4. Reflection on Childhood, Mothers, and “Earning” Love

Timestamps: 27:07 – 29:48

• Michael unpacks his patterns of “earning love,” describing his mother and grandmother’s influences:

  “I just had to earn that love. And that's what I'm doing...with these women...let me earn your love.” (28:17 – Michael)

• He realizes this approach works temporarily but inevitably falls apart, prompting fresh self-inquiry:

  “What if you do? Convince them they want to be around. Then what?...It works for a little while and then it doesn’t.” (28:39 – Louie & Michael)

5. Grief as Identity; The Weight of Loss

Timestamps: 32:40 – 38:55

• Michael shares a vivid encounter with “seeing” his mother in public and the flood of emotion it triggered, showing grief’s daily grip:

  “My body's like, hey, that's mom. And my brain's like, that's not mom.” (33:10 – Michael)

• He discusses the impossibility of returning to his past self after loss:

  “When her mother died, like, she also died. There's a new person here. Trying to find your way back to that person...you never will be again.” (36:17 – Michael paraphrasing grief insight)

• The goal of happiness feels complicated, even blocked, by the absence of his mother:

  “There’s this block that won’t allow me to be fully happy because...I can’t share it with her.” (37:16 – Michael)

6. Guilt, Shame, and the Myth of “Moving On”

Timestamps: 44:20 – 47:26

• Michael references a haunting line from The Odyssey:

  “What you want most in life, you’ve already had it, buddy.” (44:30 – Michael)

• Happiness, without her, feels impossible—and if it were, he’d feel guilty and shameful:

  “Being happy without her...Guilt, shame.” (45:47 – 46:10 – Louie & Michael)

• Louie suggests that maintaining unhappiness is the “ultimate protection”—a way to avoid vulnerability and future pain:

  “You will always have a baked in reason from now on to not be happy. Which is what you want.” (38:41 – Louie)

7. Therapy, Continuation vs. Loss, and Grieving Processes

Timestamps: 47:34 – 52:18

• Michael’s therapist challenges him to think of “continuation,” not just loss—keeping his mom present by honoring and telling her story, not being immobilized by pain.

  “Instead of thinking about her as loss...you can have both. You can have this feeling of loss...but also this idea of continuation.” (47:34 – Michael quoting therapist)

• Louie notes that even acts of remembrance may be unconsciously for his mother, not for himself:

  “It's all for her though.” (49:34 – Louie)

• Therapy homework: Michael will write and read a letter to his mother, processing all the feelings he’s left unsaid.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Feeling Bad Feels Like Home:

  “Feeling bad feels good. Like all that stuff.” (19:05 – Michael)

• On Codependency & Earning Love:

  “If I can earn it from you—then it's real.” (28:17 – Michael)

• The Haunting Realization:

  “What you want most...you’ve already had it, Buddy.” (44:30 – Michael)

• The Weight of Continuing Grief:

  “Whenever I practice gratitude, there’s this voice...this block that won’t allow me to be fully happy because...I can’t share it with her.” (37:16 – Michael)

• Louie’s Emotional Confrontation:

  “You will always have a baked in reason from now on to not be happy. Which is what you want.” (38:41 – Louie)

---

Flow of the Conversation

• Opening: Banter, disclaimers, playful insults, and reminders that they're not actual therapists.
• Main Discussion: Michael’s emotional week—explorations of self-sabotage, group support, and the struggle to feel “enough.”
• Relationship Patterns: Deep dive into why Michael chooses certain partners and his fear of being discovered as “not enough.”
• Grief & Family: The lasting impact of his mother’s loss, how it shapes his ability to experience happiness, and how remnants of those childhood relationships live on in adult intimacy and self-image.
• Therapy Insights: The episode ends with plans for a grief-processing exercise—reading a letter to his mother in therapy, signaling a willingness to face the pain directly.

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Self-Sabotage and Comfort in Misery: 12:46–16:34
• Fear of Abandonment in Relationships: 14:23–21:25
• Comparison of Support Styles (Peer vs. Louie): 17:04–20:57
• Earning Love & Maternal Influences: 27:07–29:48
• Grief and Identity-Change: 32:40–38:55
• Block to Happiness/Guilt: 44:20–47:26
• Continuation vs. Loss in Therapy: 47:34–52:18

---

Additional Notes

• Guest Segment: Velvet Tiger discusses her new book on grief, love, and awkward relationships (42:22–43:46), inviting listeners to explore these themes through her writing.
• Humor & Tone: Heavily self-deprecating, irreverent, but always circling back to genuine emotional inquiry.
• Therapy as a Lifelong Process: Both hosts underline the difficulty—and necessity—of facing hard truths to heal.

---

For Listeners

This episode is a raw but relatable reflection on why “misery” can sometimes feel easier than happiness, especially after loss. If you’ve ever found yourself stuck in the same emotional loops, unable to be happy “enough,” or haunted by old grief, you’ll find honesty, empathy, and a few hard-won laughs here.

Transcript

[Carvana Advertiser]

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[Carvana Customer]

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[Carvana Advertiser]

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[Carvana Advertiser]

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[Carvana Customer]

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[Carvana Customer]

Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our 7 day return policy at

[Michael (Host)]

Carvana.com Secondhand therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod hello, my little bear cubs.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

It is I, Daddy, Father, Papa Bear,

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Louie Lou Bear, as they call me. We got a comment on YouTube that said, Whenever I talk about your podcast, I will be referring to you as Daddy, Father, Daddy, Father, Papa Bear, Louie Lou Bear.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Terrible.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

And I'm gonna tell you, I want to make us a drip with a name.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

So.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Because, hi, my name is. And then all that. Now we need to remind you that we're not therapists, we're not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way.

[Michael (Host)]

That's right.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

And also, if you would like to

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

stop being a freeloading piece.

[Michael (Host)]

No.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Of trash.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

No.

[Michael (Host)]

Be nice. Just if you don't have to be nice.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

If you wanted to stop taking advantage

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

of us, our vulnerability, our emotions, our health insurance, our time and our finances, you could go on over to Patreon. What?

[Michael (Host)]

Be nice.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Patreon.com Secondhand TherapyPod. You're gonna get early episodes.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

You're gonna get ad free episodes.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

You're not gonna hear me call you a freeloading so trash anymore.

[Michael (Host)]

That's right.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I will.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

If you want.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah, whatever.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Here's another podcast. If you're hearing that you're listen, you're

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

hearing this on Monday.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

We just did a live stream on Saturday.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

In our live streams, they're Google hangouts, bro. Yeah, we're hanging out, we're chatting.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Sometimes my dog is there.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Who knows?

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, it's a good time. Go check out Patreon.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah, I've said it before, a couple times.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

You do get your own RSS feed.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Sounds complicated. It is not.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

What that means is the ad free early episodes will pop up wherever you

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

listen to your podcast now.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Spotify, Apple, Amazon, whatever.

[Michael (Host)]

That's right.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Or you can just listen to them on the Patreon app.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

If you do join Patreon, do it on a web browser. It will be cheaper for you. The App Store fees do not go to us. So do it on a browser and then use the app

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

it says on there.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Sign up for the.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

On a web browser for the best price. But we still get. People sign up in the App Store and it. It's literally like two bucks a month.

[Michael (Host)]

Damn.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

It just goes to Apple or whoever.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, don't do that. Yeah, yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

We also have merch available. Secondhand therapy. Pod.com.

[Michael (Host)]

it's a podcast.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

It is a podcast.

[Michael (Host)]

That's right. Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Some merch over there. Feelings pillow. A lot of hats, a lot of shirts. Some stickers. I want to put a sticker.

[Michael (Host)]

Put a sticker on me, Daddy.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Put a sticker on me. Vasectomyfarms.com if you care about women at all, but you're a freeloading piece of trash, be nice. We donate a large portion of that.

[Michael (Host)]

I don't know what else to say

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

to these freeloading dumpster humans.

[Michael (Host)]

Be nice. You know, and it's a good thing to do for charity. It's a charitable thing to do. This is like when you play Santa Claus every year at that church, and then they donate toys to.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

No, that's in the Patreon intro.

[Michael (Host)]

No, no, it's not. This is for public. This is for public.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

You better keep the.

[Michael (Host)]

The public should know.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Don't tell them every.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

If you want to hear the whole

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

thing, it's in the Patreon intro.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

But don't.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Don't.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Don't put my.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

All my business out there.

[Michael (Host)]

I'm just saying, this is like when you. When you go to the church. Yeah. Around Christmas every year I go to a few.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Which one?

[Michael (Host)]

Well, I'm just talking about the one that you. You normally go to temple. Yes. And they donate the toys for the children and you. Then you play Santa and then they come and study. I mean, it's a very nice thing, but at the end, you steal all the toys back and you burn them in front of the children.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I told you. Okay. When we talk about it in the Patreon intro, it doesn't come out here. Why?

[Michael (Host)]

People should know.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I thought you were going to talk about when I. The kids.

[Michael (Host)]

No, that I'm okay with. Jesus.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I need to go to more therapy. That was funny, though.

[Carvana Advertiser]

But it.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Be honest, the amount of people that heard the pedophilia joke and then your pedophilia joke on top of it, percentage of them you think laughed.

[Michael (Host)]

1,000%.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I agree.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

How many.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

How many do you think it's more

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

likely that people will laugh or they go, that's funny. But I can't laugh. And they don't laugh, but they think it's funny.

[Michael (Host)]

Well, what's more likely with our audience? Yeah, probably that.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Huh?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

We got some demented in our audience, dude.

[Michael (Host)]

That's true.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

You know, I like it.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Play the music.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Play the music. That's enough.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

You know how I keep telling you I'm doing a psychology class? Doing it.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I.

[Michael (Host)]

Okay. Are you really?

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

I'm really doing it, dude. Our new sponsor, Southern New Hampshire University.

[Michael (Host)]

Some classes, bro. Oh, you fancy now, bruh.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

I'm out here.

[Michael (Host)]

He's a schoolboy.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Hey, and here's the thing. If you're like me and you're just like, dude, I like learning stuff sometimes. Snhu, go learn some stuff. If you were like me in the past, maybe you feel a little stuck in your career, you want to start a new thing. Snhu, what about you?

[Michael (Host)]

I mean, I love to learn.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Ah, God, he's never learned.

[Michael (Host)]

I need to do it more officially.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

You never learned a thing.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Anyway, if you want to check out SNHU and you want to see what kind of programs they have, you can go to Snhu. Edu Sht. And you can request more information. It costs nothing to request more information. It's a great way to support the podcast. Learn some stuff, start a new career. Do whatever you need.

[Michael (Host)]

Go back to school.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Snhu. Edu. Sht. There's also a link in the episode description. Get some info, Start some learning. You're welcome. If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[Michael (Host)]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[Michael (Host)]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

All right, so here's the thing. Daddy already did it. Okay, now here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, you do, here's what you do. You go to trypsychicsource.com sht10, okay? You're gonna get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[Michael (Host)]

Okay, all right.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Talk about my love life.

[Michael (Host)]

Trying to see some.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Some.

[Michael (Host)]

Maybe some road bumps.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Just seeing if it's going to be clear skies, and it's not. Now I did the other 20 on just like a spiritual thing? See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're going to do a medium.

[Michael (Host)]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it. And then DM us because I want to hear how it went.

[Michael (Host)]

Oh, I can't. Please, please DM us.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Best thing that's ever happened to you. Financially. Go easy.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Sold my car on Carvana. Amazing offer, really.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

I hit 200 on a scratcher.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check?

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

No.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Okay, that's fair.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

It's like the lottery, except you always win.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Not like the lottery at all, actually.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

[Michael (Host)]

The tea.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Hello, my little bear cubs. And welcome back.

[Michael (Host)]

Secondhand therapy. And we know that I feel like I have had therapy all week long.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

So here's what I don't need to know about your feelings. Why don't you tell me your thoughts?

[Michael (Host)]

Oh, we're off to a good start. I'm gonna strangle you.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Okay, so you feel like you've had. Honestly, I think I. Honest. Here's the thing. I think you're making an accurate statement. I was just being a cocksucker. A bit of a cocksucker.

[Michael (Host)]

Just a bit.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

And I'm sorry about that.

[Michael (Host)]

Go ahead. So let me restart. I feel exhausted talking with you, but I think that I have had therapy all week.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Can I also.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

When I say cocksucker, that's a statement about character. That's not an anti gay thing. No, because calling someone a cocksucker just means. Well, that's where they get it from, though.

[Michael (Host)]

I mean, men and women both suck.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

That's true.

[Michael (Host)]

It is a character thing. It's not a.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

That's like when you call someone A and you're like. Yeah, but that's just like saying. And it's like. Yeah, but that's derogatory to somebody. That's where it came from.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah, well, I was being a.

[Michael (Host)]

Whatever that means.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

And I'm sorry about that.

[Michael (Host)]

What if you change it to jerk or. Doesn't have the same ring to it? Yeah, but it takes away any kind of questioning.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I was being a real rug. Muncher.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Does that work?

[Michael (Host)]

That does not work.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

That doesn't work.

[Michael (Host)]

That even targets that. That definitely targets people.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Huh?

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

I was just being a jerk.

[Michael (Host)]

There you go.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

That is so boring.

[Michael (Host)]

It's so boring.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

All right, tell me about your. Your feelings.

[Michael (Host)]

I think and feel that I've been in therapy all week. I. I was doing shows this week and we did some green room hangs after the shows, and we were there till 12 in the morning every night. And I was surrounded by other dudes who were in coda, like I am, who were in slaw, who were in recovery, who were sober, like a lot of.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

And if you're listening and you don't

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

know what slaw is.

[Michael (Host)]

Sex love addiction. I don't know what the W stands for. Is there a W? I don't know.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

It's S L A.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

A Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous.

[Michael (Host)]

There you go.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Which one of us should be in?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

And we're not going to tell you which one. Tell me about.

[Michael (Host)]

No, we're gonna talk about that statement right there later on. Later on.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Later on.

[Michael (Host)]

Okay.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

That's for later.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Okay.

[Michael (Host)]

Now.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

We were just talking a lot about love and grief and codependency and like all these issues that we struggle with. And. And it got brought up this idea of self sabotage at one point and somebody was sharing that when they get scared that their instinct is to like, burn everything down or run away and because the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is they get to feel bad about themselves. And that feels like home.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And I related to that so much, and I had not. It felt. It felt good to be seen and heard in a way that I don't usually get to feel unless I'm like in a meeting or something like that. And that was a moment that resonated with me about, like, I didn't realize that it was linked to being. Like my default self sabotage or like

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

feeling bad about yourself, being safe.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Like that.

[Michael (Host)]

That feels like home. Like the chaos and everything like that, like, that is where I. I feel good. Yeah. It made me examine a lot of relationships in my life.

[Carvana Advertiser]

And

[Michael (Host)]

most recently, like, the last relationship that I was in, that's exactly what happened. I got scared. And I. The being scared that I wasn't going to be enough. You know, she.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

When you say scared you weren't going to be enough, that boils down. You can correct me if I'm wrong. It boils down to the fear of abandonment, because if you're not enough, she'll leave.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Okay.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. Eventually, like, again, this idea that they're going to discover who I am.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And so, you know, like. Like, with her, like, she's very educated. She's reading books. She's introducing me to new music. We're talking about art and life and all these things, and she's cooking things from scratch. And, I mean, she's all of these things that I am not.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Oh, dude, I remember when you were sick and you were doing the rat diet and you wanted applesauce. She's like, oh, yeah, I'll make you some real quick. Or what?

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

What does that even mean?

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, she's the type of person that would, like, yeah, we'd be at a restaurant, and she'd take a couple bites of something, and she'd be like, I think that's, like, lime and a little bit of. Yeah, I can make this. Yeah. I'm like, what?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Good palate on her. Yeah. But it was, like, one of those things where I was afraid that I wasn't going to be able to keep up with her in the long run, and then she would slowly discover that. And so rather than staying with her and falling deeper and deeper in love, and then two or three or five years later, she is like, oh, this isn't the guy for me. And she crushes me. Then I'll do it now. I'll blow things up now and run away and hurt myself before then she has a chance to do it. Mm. And. And bonus, I get to feel bad.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And I don't want to. I don't want to feel bad, but I'm. My brain is wired that way. And that was. That was the refreshing thing this week about, like, being around other people who had similar wiring, and it didn't feel as isolated. A lot of these talks, these deeper conversations I have are with you. And you and I are wired very differently.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

And

[Michael (Host)]

the slaw comment that we. And I was like, we'll get to that later. This is not an attack. This is just an observation. But this is an example of what I'm talking about with being with other people who are wired like me versus having these conversations with you when I bring up slaw with you. Because I was like, hey, we talked about slo and this and that. And your immediate reaction was, we talked.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

We talked about slaw, like, two years ago. And you're like, yeah, I should look into it.

[Michael (Host)]

And. Yeah, yeah. But, like, the other night I came home and I was talking about it, and you said.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I don't remember what I said.

[Michael (Host)]

You Said you should definitely be in that.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Okay.

[Michael (Host)]

And from what I know about it,

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I, I do stand by that statement.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. And I agree with you.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

But it was the way it was presented in a way. I, I received it. Two things, always two things. I, I received it as you. Like, it was just like a, like there's no question about it. Like, you already should be doing this. And the second part was almost like a dismissive thing of like, yeah, but I know you won't do it. And so that's how I received it, was like, yeah, you should be doing that, but I know you're not going to. And it, I. It hurt a little bit, you know, I was like, oh, okay. Like. And anyways, with like minded people that are wired like me, I brought it up to one of them and I was like, yeah, I've been really, I've heard about slaw. I've been thinking about slaw, you know, this and that. And like we got into a conversation about it and he said, you're talking

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

to people who have been through slo.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, yeah. And. And who are codependent like me, who are, you know, again, like, like minded and wired like me to feel bad. You know, feeling bad feels good. Like all that stuff.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I have a different lens. As soon as you're done.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Okay. And

[Michael (Host)]

the response that I got from me, sharing that I've been thinking about it and like wanting, you know, like definitely interested in it. And we talked about a little bit more. They said, I'm excited for you. It sounds like you're on the path to getting there.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Nice.

[Michael (Host)]

And like, I hope you find your way there. And they warned me about how hard it's going to be and this and that, but they were like, at the end of it, it was like, yeah, I'm excited for you, man. It sounds like you're on your way.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Great. Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

That was a very different.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

That sounds better than what I said.

[Carvana Customer]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Experience. Yeah. What was your different lens?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I think that people who have done 12 step programs exist in a place of that style of communication, of an understanding of you can't, you can't convince somebody to do something you can't. Like, they're just like, ah, that sounds, sounds like you're on your way. And then they, because they know.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

That so many people, when they start, they're gonna, that you're gonna start it 15 times, you're gonna quit 14. Like they know all that.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

So I think people that have been through 12 step programs or, or that are in Some sort of recovery. Recovery or sobriety. I think they excel in that type of open ended encouragement.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Just a different lens that I thought.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Like I said, still better than what I said.

[Michael (Host)]

And again, not an attack. It was just an observation of the difference of not feel attacked of the two.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

And you know what? I think there's some truth to what you said.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I do think part of me is like, yeah, we talked about this two years ago, right? Yeah. And there's a part of me that does feel that way.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

But it's not on you to deal with that when it comes out. Like it's on me to manage that so it doesn't come out. And I should have been more encouraging in that moment. I think you're right.

[Michael (Host)]

I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Just

[Michael (Host)]

it was really interesting again to be around. People that are wired that way and, and, and I was talking to my therapist about it and we were talking about again like codependency and all these things that I struggle with. And, and when you're talking about love. And he said, because I'm noticing a pattern with you.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Okay.

[Michael (Host)]

And he goes, and this is probably a subconscious thing. He's like, I'm not saying that this is. You're consciously doing this or whatever. He's like, but you tend to go for women who are more on the independent side, who are more have like a. He's like, I don't know how to word it, but like more of a shell to them and they're just not available like you are. He's like, you are very vulnerable and you are very open and these things. And he's like, it sounds like there is a little bit of, of some work to do to get there with, with some of the women that you're seeing.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Hmm.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

That's a little confusing for me.

[Michael (Host)]

Why?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Earlier on you were talking about your inclination to cut and run because you're afraid that they'll see who you are. And then in this instance, your therapist is saying the struggle is that you're so vulnerable.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Well, a big part of vulnerability is being seen in who you are.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

So I'm wondering what the vulnerability in relationships, if it is being seen or if it is, I don't know, something else.

[Michael (Host)]

For me, I think it's the catching up. It's going to catch up again. Like you might love me and, and I'm vulnerable and like all these things with you and like you think you see me and all this, but like, give it two years and you're Going to get real tired of me because I'm sad.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Boy.

[Michael (Host)]

And this and that. Or whatever like that. For me, it's a time thing. It gets old. Or they're like, this guy. I thought this was for me, and it's not.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Well, that does happen, too.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And especially in that last relationship, it was like, yeah, you're. It's going.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

It's.

[Michael (Host)]

You're gonna catch up. Like, I just. I can't keep up with you. And long and long term.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Who says she needs you to?

[Michael (Host)]

That's what. That's what my therapist asked me. Yeah.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Right.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

There is a.

[Michael (Host)]

Did you have this conversation with her? Did you ever ask her if she didn't feel like you were keeping up with her? And I said no.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I know what everyone's thinking all the time. Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Duh.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. We'll be right back with more secondhand therapy. Hang tight. I know we talk about better help a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[Michael (Host)]

I'm using BetterHelp. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah, you had that one.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

That was not a good fit.

[Michael (Host)]

It's not a good fit.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Hey.

[Michael (Host)]

And that happens. Finding good therapists is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

And you're married now.

[Michael (Host)]

Oh, no.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Never.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Never.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

You're in love now?

[Michael (Host)]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[Michael (Host)]

Absolutely not.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Let's do one together.

[Michael (Host)]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I'll do it. You think I want to do it?

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

You think I won't win couples therapy with you? Dude, you think I'm not gonna walk out with the trophy?

[Michael (Host)]

I know you will.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor, and if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

start, maybe you don't have insurance like us. You can go to BetterHelp.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy, and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode starting Therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhand therapy. We love you guys.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

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[Carvana Advertiser 3]

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[Carvana Advertiser 2]

I hit 200 on a scratcher.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check?

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

No.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Okay, that's fair.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

It's like the lottery, except you always win.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Not like the lottery at all, actually.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

[Michael (Host)]

So he asked me if there were other. He asked me about my mother, obviously. Obviously about, like, if she had, like, this shell that we're talk about. And I said, I often describe my mother and my grandmother as like two very strong, independent women.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yes, you do.

[Michael (Host)]

And that is, I don't think is true for my mother. My mother was very fragile, but my grandmother, she was like the brick wall. You know what I mean? And she would break down and she would give you love, but then she'd go back to being tough. And my mother was tough in ways, but very open with her feelings and very reactive. I think that's more it. Very reactive. And I think it. What I brought up was like, I just had to earn that love. And that's what I'm doing, I think, subconsciously with these women that I'm pairing myself up with is like, let me earn your love.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Because then it's real.

[Michael (Host)]

Because then it's real. Yeah, exactly. I don't, you know, you're independent. You don't need me around. You don't need this. But what if I can earn it from you?

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

What if I can. What if I can convince you that you do want me around or whatever? Yeah. That was a big eye opener for me today.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I was like, okay, so what's the answer? What if you do.

[Michael (Host)]

What if I do what you do?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Convince them you earn their love. You convince them they want to be around. Then what?

[Michael (Host)]

It works for a little while and then it doesn't. And then I get left or I get scared and I leave.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah. I never thought to rethink the plan, though.

[Michael (Host)]

Well, I'm just now examining it.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

You know.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And. And this is a. This getting scared of love is a new thing. Scared of love is. It happened after I got blindsided with the breakup and I.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Previous.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. So it's Hard for me to feel safe and secure now in these relationships or trust that I'm safe because I got, you know, it was just like I thought I was safe and then I wasn't.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

What does it mean to be safe in a relationship?

[Michael (Host)]

Just to know that you're not going to leave. We're sticking it out. We're going to work on it. We're going to do this. We're going to have conversations. We're going to have, you know. Yeah. I have a thought. Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

You're talking about something stuck out to me. You're talking about the fact that your mom was very open and very emotional, which it sounds like is how you and your therapist are on the same page of that's how you are. And when you talk about. When you're able to talk honestly about your mom and your guys's relationship, it was very codependent both ways.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Do you find that your mom was

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

so

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

open and emotional that she would show those sides and then put it on you or grandma to fix them and make her feel better?

[Michael (Host)]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

And do you think that's what also you're doing in relationships?

[Michael (Host)]

Probably, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure there are definitely times like that.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Other times I'm just up. Other times I'm just sad.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

I don't want her to fix that in the moment. I just want somebody to sit with me. I just. I just want to, like.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Did you say that? Hey, can you just sit with me for a little bit?

[Michael (Host)]

I also don't know how to ask for that in that moment, you know, in the. And, you know,

[Carvana Advertiser]

so.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Yeah.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

But you still have a responsibility to ask for what you need.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. I know that now.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Right.

[Michael (Host)]

I didn't know that then.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

It was just a lot about love this week, and. There was a. There's a moment when I was. I think I shared this with you

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

already, but open your eyes, though.

[Michael (Host)]

Hey, they're open in here. Yeah, it's a podcast. I was walking to the show on Saturday night and feeling real good. Feeling real good.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Suited up.

[Michael (Host)]

I'm suited and booted, baby. And feeling nice. Feeling good. It was Saturday night and working with Brad and all that stuff, and it's going to be a good night. Got my little airpods in. I'm listening to music and I'm making my way through the crowd.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

And you put in AirPods to walk from your car to the show.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. It's a 15 minute walk.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

All right.

[Michael (Host)]

It's a journey. Plus, it's like, hyping, you know, it's pre show.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Trying to get hype dog.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

So feeling good. And I happen to look back, and I saw my mother's hairstyle, which is a very distinct hairstyle.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Some would call it an afro.

[Michael (Host)]

It's very much an afro. Perm from the 90s. Very, like, Roseanne.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Ish.

[Michael (Host)]

You know, not a lot of people.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Early Roseanne.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Not a lot of people are rocking this.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Especially not, you know, in Vegas on

[Michael (Host)]

a Saturday night, 2026. Absolutely not.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

So I look back, I spot that, and then I look down, and she's short like my mother. She's wearing a very similar outfit than that my mother would wear. Huh. She has olive skin, like, very similar build. And my body's like, hey, that's mom. And my brain's like, that's not mom.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

What's that? What does your body feel?

[Michael (Host)]

Excitement and. Relief. Yeah. And my brain's like, that's not her. My body's like, that's for sure her, dude.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And I almost start crying immediately. I'm like, hey, not now. Not now, dude.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And then my brain's like, you know what? This is the closest thing we got to mom in a long time. Let's take it in. So I turn back, she's gone, just like your mom. And I can't believe it. And I'm like, there's no. Like, I'm on a straightaway, like, where the. Where the did she go? And so then I look back longer, thinking, like, you just. You missed her. She's in the crowd. Yeah, she's not. So now I'm really, like, up and start tearing up.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And it's like 10 minutes before the show, and I'm like, not now, dude. Not fucking now.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And so in. In one of the long green room talks that week or that. That. Yeah, that week. I'm sharing that moment, and. And it's like, I just. I just want to be happy, and. I don't like that. I'm wired to feel good feeling bad, and I want to be happy. And it is hard for me to be happy without her. And I spent so long thinking that the goal was to find my way back to who I was when mom was alive. And then I saw this woman talking about grief, and she was saying

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

that

[Michael (Host)]

there was a switch in her that was like, yeah, like, when her mother died, like, she also died. Like, this is a. There's a new person here. And trying to find your way back to that person isn't You're. You're never going. You're not that person. You never will be again.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah. Before Mom. After Mom.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And I remember that and thinking that. And there is this new person here, and. I just don't know how. To be happy. Because on one hand, like. Like, I know, like, life is good. My life is good. Like, yeah. Like, on paper, like, dog, I'm. It's great, man. You know what I mean? But she's not here. It's like, I've shared this story before, but it's that moment I talk about when I was headlining the MGM the first time. And midweek I'm crying in my room because I kept thinking, like, I have everything I want except for her. And it feels like that when I think about happiness or when I think about life is good. There's this reminder that she's not here. So whenever I practice gratitude, there's this voice or this reminder, this. This block that won't allow me to be fully happy because. I can't share it with her. I can't tell her about it. I. She'll never know. I'll never see her again. I'll never talk to her again. I'll never experience her again. Like. And I don't know how to turn that off.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

With what you said earlier. You're not gonna like this.

[Michael (Host)]

Okay.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I mean, it sounds like the ultimate protection.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

You will always have a baked in reason from now on to not be happy. Which is what you want.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Thoughts? It's a bummer.

[Michael (Host)]

It's a real bummer.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

It's a bummer. We'll be right back with more secondhand therapy after this.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[Michael (Host)]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[Michael (Host)]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

All right, so here's the thing. Daddy already did it, okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, you do, here's what you do. You go to trypsychicsource.com sht10, okay? You're gonna get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[Michael (Host)]

Okay?

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

All right.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Talk about my love life.

[Michael (Host)]

Trying to see some. Some maybe Some road bumps just seeing

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

if it's going to be clear skies, and it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just, like, a spiritual thing. See where I'm at?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Let me guess.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

You're gonna do a medium.

[Michael (Host)]

Oh, my God. I can't wait.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it. And then DM us, because I want to hear how it went.

[Michael (Host)]

Oh, I can't. I. Please, please DM us.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[Michael (Host)]

I want the tea. I know we talk about betterhelp a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[Michael (Host)]

I'm using better help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah, yeah, you had that one.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

That was not a good fit.

[Michael (Host)]

It's not a good day, and that happens. Finding good therapists is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

And you're married now.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Never.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Never.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

You're in love now.

[Michael (Host)]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[Michael (Host)]

Absolutely not.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Let's do one together.

[Michael (Host)]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you?

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

Dude, you think I'm not gonna walk out like the trophy?

[Michael (Host)]

I know you will.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor. And if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy, and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhandtherapy. We love you guys.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

I wrote a book, which still feels

[Michael (Host)]

weird to say out loud. It is a collection of short stories

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

and essays and faux Journal entries. And it's, you know, all about love, grief, dating, loneliness, and all the weird

[Michael (Host)]

ways people try to hold on to each other while they fall apart.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Some of the stories are funny. Some of the stories are sad. Most are, you know, a blend of both. I mean, honestly, the book really isn't about love. It's. It's more about moments, like those awkward moments after an argument or the drive home after a bad date, or, you know, that silence after someone says I'm fine when you know that they're lying to you. Anyways, I am offering signed copies of the [e-mail] so if you've ever mistaken attention for intimacy or referred to distance as independence, or, you know, love someone and then realized that that really wasn't the problem, then this book might be for you. And you can get a signed copy and stickers and bookmarks and all kinds of fun [e-mail] it's available in paperback, hardback, ebook, and the audiobook is coming soon, so there's no excuse.

[Michael (Host)]

Go check it out.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Velvettigerbooks.com Evening.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car. I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

[Carvana Customer]

Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.

[Carvana Advertiser]

You what?

[Carvana Customer]

Yeah. Great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it.

[Carvana Advertiser]

So there's no.

[Carvana Customer]

No. No buyer'? More like buyers rejoice.

[Carvana Advertiser]

I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it.

[Carvana Customer]

Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven day return [e-mail] there's

[Michael (Host)]

this line in the Odyssey, no spoilers. That has been haunting me since I watched it.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And the line is this. It's about being happy. It's about finding what you want in life. And you'll never find it again. Because what you want the most in life, you've already had it, Buddy. What you want most, you've already had it.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Hmm.

[Michael (Host)]

And all I want is her. And I've already had it. And I'll never have it again. And it's the only thing I want. And I don't know what else will make me happy.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

She won't.

[Michael (Host)]

I know. Hey.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Logically.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. So we talked about how it's attached to, like, guilt and shame. That's what I feel when I think that way.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

When I think being happy without her.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Guilt, shame.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Like this.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I think that's how she wanted it.

[Michael (Host)]

How she wanted it.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

It's like you sending a postcard to your grandma.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

What about me, Michael?

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I don't think she's doing it on purpose.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

No.

[Michael (Host)]

The way I described it, because my. My therapist, he said, well, what do you think that she would think about that? And I said, well, my mother was the queen of codependency and the queen of people pleasing. And think about.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Think about what exactly?

[Michael (Host)]

Sorry. That idea of, like, I'm not happy without her. You know, like that idea, like, guilt and stuff. And he. And I said, oh, she's the queen of codependency and people pleasing. So her reaction would be, don't even worry about me.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah. To your face.

[Michael (Host)]

To my face.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Crushed behind my back.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

But to my face. Don't even worry about it.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah. Did you believe it when she would say that kind of stuff to your face?

[Michael (Host)]

No.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

No.

[Michael (Host)]

No.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

So what does that feel like, the belief that to your face she would say, don't worry about it, but in reality she would be crushed if you were happy?

[Michael (Host)]

I don't know. I didn't know that then. That's something I know now.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

What does it feel like now? It's a rough thing to face.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. I haven't really thought about it. Yeah.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

No.

[Michael (Host)]

Deborah said that I'm already starting at a. At a deficit. He's like, you're always talking about her with loss. And instead of thinking about her as continuation, he's like, you can have both. You can have like, this feeling of loss of like, you know, yeah, Mom's not here. But also this idea of continuation of like, oh, but I'm going to bring her with me, so I'm going to tell her stories. I'm going to talk about her. I'm going to write letters to her. I'm going to have conversations with her. Like this idea of continuation. Instead of loss fighting in that way, it fights the guilt and shame and everything. And it, you know, I don't know

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

how I feel about that continuation.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. I want to do it in a

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

way that

[Michael (Host)]

honors her but doesn't weigh me down the way that's for you. Yeah. Yeah. Because when I. He asked me where I feel it, those. You know, that the guilt and shame and stuff. And it's in my chest, but it's not in my chest. Like anxiety. Anxiety is like a flutter, and this is like a weight. It feels heavy on my chest, like a sunkenness. And then it's in my eyes. I can feel my eyes kind of drain almost, or become dead. It Washes me. Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Why do you think you don't like continuation?

[Michael (Host)]

I want continuation, but I want it on my terms. I don't like the continuation that I'm doing now because I. I told him, I was like, I think I'm already doing something like that. And I am.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

I'm on here crying about it every week.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

It's all for her, though.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah, exactly. I don't want that. It needs to be for me. It needs to be individual. It needs to be. I need to reclaim.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

How you feeling?

[Michael (Host)]

I don't know.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

You want pillow?

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Nah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

I know you don't.

[Michael (Host)]

I honestly don't know how. I don't. I couldn't even.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah. More sad or more angry, do you think?

[Michael (Host)]

Sad?

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah. He asked me, He asked me if I could feel that in my chest, like what that feeling is, and in my eyes. And I said, yeah. And I said, when I feel it, it's. I want to cry. And he said, what's wrong with that? I said, well, there's nothing wrong with that. And we were almost up. Up. You know, we had like 10 minutes left.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And I go, this is. It's not. It's not time for that. The same feeling I had walking to the show. Not now. And the same feeling I had in therapy. Not now.

[Velvet Tiger (Author/Guest)]

Yeah. Because.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Was that psychic say?

[Michael (Host)]

That's exactly what it came back around.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

It feels like once I start crying, I won't be able to stop. And I. He said, well, it sounds like we need to create a space for that to happen.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

And he said, so next week that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna go down and talk to that part and we're gonna give you space to cry. And if we go over our time, we'll go over our time in my homework this week to write a letter

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

to my mom,

[Michael (Host)]

let her know everything I want her to know. And we're going to open up this session with me reading that letter out loud so we can go down and talk to that part.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Everything that you want her to know. Scary.

[Michael (Host)]

Yeah.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Scary because ouchie are scary because you might finally be mad at her.

[Michael (Host)]

More ouchy.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Carvana Customer]

Yeah.

[Michael (Host)]

Everything you want, you've already had.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

Hello, my little bear cub.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

I just wanted to say thank you

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

so much for listening to this episode.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

If you would like ad free episodes and other bonus content, please head on

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod okay, love you.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Bye.

[Louie Lou Bear (Co-host)]

And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear.

[Daddy, Father, Papa Bear (Co-host)]

It's not.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Best thing that's ever happened to you financially, go easy.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Sold my car on Carvana. Amazing offer, really.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

I hit 200 on a scratcher.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check?

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

No.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Okay, that's fair.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

It's like the lottery, except you always win.

[Carvana Advertiser 2]

Not like the lottery at all, actually.

[Carvana Advertiser 3]

Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.