When Being Right Costs You | #095

Summary

Episode Summary: "When Being Right Costs You" | Secondhand Therapy #095

Podcast: Secondhand Therapy
Hosts: Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone
Date: August 18, 2025
Main Theme:
This episode explores the sometimes painful cost of needing to be "right" in relationships—how communication styles, rejection sensitivity, and past family dynamics complicate both conflict and connection. Through honest, hilarious, and vulnerable conversation, Louie and Michael unpack how their habits clash, how their upbringings affect their self-worth, and how codependency and expectations shape their ability to celebrate themselves (and each other).

---

Main Discussion Segments & Insights

1. Addressing Listener Feedback and Communication Styles

• (05:31–07:16): The hosts discuss criticism they received about arguments on the last episode. They reflect on whether their "bickering" is helpful or harmful to listeners, and what it reveals about their dynamic.

  • Michael (B): “Why is it that the comments on the episode are rough? … Be smart enough to understand that the end of the episode isn't everything you just heard.” (06:05)
  • Louie (A): “Even when we have those discussions and we get into the weeds, … it's communication.” (06:43)

• They both reiterate their commitment to vulnerability, emphasizing their efforts to understand each other even during tense moments.

2. Rejection Sensitivity and Arguing Styles

• (07:16–12:12): Michael brings up “rejection sensitivity dysphoria” (RSD), how criticism—even unintended—can feel like personal rejection, especially for those with ADHD tendencies.

  • Notable quote:
    • Louie: “It absolutely 1000% is a possibility for me because that feeds into feeling attacked. … Any kind of criticism, even if it's not criticism, sometimes feedback just feels like an attack.” (07:39)

• Michael reflects on a moment in therapy:

  • Michael: “Remember when you said, you think I might be hard to argue with? … Why is that my problem?” (08:35)
  • His therapist points out that mutual understanding requires effort from both sides, not just one partner.

3. Authenticity vs. Consideration in Communication

• (13:08–21:04): They debate whether “cushioning” language for others’ feelings is inauthentic, or an act of care.
  • Louie: “You can still be your authentic self and smile or laugh at a cashier when they're trying to have a moment with you or something like that…” (14:34)
  • Michael: “But there is a part of my authentic self that wants the people I am close and connected with and that I care about to feel that they are being treated with kindness by me.” (20:04)
  • They use a real-life example—feedback on Michael’s artwork—to illustrate how delivery of feedback and boundaries can feel.

4. Small Acts of Accommodation & The Cost of Peace

• (23:08–29:56): Louie shares he constantly “tiptoes” around Michael, both physically (adjusting objects at home for Michael’s preferences) and verbally. Michael questions whether these acts undermine Louie’s authenticity.

  • Louie: “I'm doing little things like that all over the house because I know the way that you like things... because I care about you and your feelings.” (23:40)

• Together, they agree that mutual accommodation helps preserve connection, albeit at the risk of resentment or loss of self if not kept in check.

• Memorable moment:

  • Louie: “We’d be out in that pool trying to drown each other. Like, that’s how that ends if we were to not make adjustments and want to treat each other in a way that is with kindness.” (29:34)

5. Recognizing (and Accepting) a Good Life

• (30:01–36:54): Michael shares a moving exchange with his mom, who unexpectedly asks if he’s “living his dream.”

  • Michael: “I feel equal parts uncomfortable and grateful.” (31:47)
  • They unpack “impostor syndrome”: why success feels foreign and pride is uncomfortable—even if life looks “dream-like” by many standards.

• Michael: “My instincts is just to be like, yeah, it’s all right, I guess. … So insecure about being proud of something you did. It’s so weird.” (39:08)

6. Codependency, Identity, and the Burden of Expectation

• (42:32–47:10): Louie describes his experience in CoDA (Codependents Anonymous), realizing how childhood expectations shape adult struggles with identity and isolation.

  • Louie: “I always thought that my behaviors were links to people pleasing… I would just be whoever you needed me to be. … There’s another layer… as a kid especially, you are told who you are supposed to be or who you were expected to be. And… I didn’t know how to be me.” (44:52)

• They touch on “groomed to be quiet”—how family environments can suppress both needs and identity.

  • Louie: “Somebody shared today something I can’t get out of my head... I was groomed to be quiet.” (48:14, 49:36)

7. Struggles Sharing Joy and Ownership

• (53:08–58:14): Louie reflects on celebrating milestones and why shared successes don’t feel like “his”—struggling with worthiness regarding praise, ownership, and the collective life he shares with Michael and others.

  • Louie: “If I had done this all myself, I think it would be different. … I don’t feel worthy of the joy or the praise.” (55:07)

• Michael challenges Louie to recognize his own belonging and participation, reframing “living together” as a mutual life rather than being a guest in someone else’s story.

8. The Lingering Influence of Parents and Trust in Adulthood

• (59:09–61:52): Michael gently asks Louie about how his late mother’s caretaking continues to shape his self-trust. Louie admits he struggles to take initiative in adult tasks, relying on friends due to a lack of confidence.

  • Michael: “Do you think your mom ever wanted you to be capable to do things on your own? … Do you think your mom prepared you to always need her so she could feel like she had a purpose?” (61:34)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “It absolutely 1000% is a possibility for me because that feeds into feeling attacked. … Any kind of criticism, even if it's not criticism, sometimes feedback just feels like an attack.”
  — Louie (07:39)

• “Presenting myself to him in a way that is more digestible… How can I do that and remain my authentic self if I am now a presentation?”
  — Michael (14:02)

• “I verbally and physically tiptoe around you all the time… because I care about you and your feelings.”
  — Louie (23:08)

• “If we were to not make adjustments and want to treat each other in a way that is with kindness… we’d be out in that pool trying to drown each other.”
  — Louie (29:34)

• “I feel equal parts uncomfortable and grateful.”
  — Michael (31:47)

• “I can’t judge who that is [when I’m alone], because he’s always wounded when he’s there.”
  — Louie (51:40)

• “Somebody shared today something I can’t get out of my head... I was groomed to be quiet.”
  — Louie (48:14, repeated at 49:36)

• “Do you think your mom ever wanted you to be capable to do things on your own?... Do you think your mom prepared you to always need her so she could feel like she had a purpose?”
  — Michael (61:34)

---

Key Takeaways

• Being “right” isn’t always the win: The cost of needing to be correct, or have the last word, can be connection, vulnerability, and authentic communication.
• Mutual accommodation is essential but exhausting: Both hosts reveal the sometimes-invisible labor required to keep peace, and question the balance between authenticity and care.
• Old expectations die hard: From parental influence to societal standards, both struggle to define pride, self-worth, and even joy outside of what they were taught “should” matter.
• Growth is messy but necessary: Honest attempts at communication—sometimes awkward, sometimes combative—are intrinsic to healthy relationships and self-understanding.

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:31–07:16 — Listener feedback & communication
• 07:16–12:12 — Arguing, rejection sensitivity, therapy insights
• 13:08–21:04 — Authenticity vs. accommodation, examples
• 23:08–29:56 — Tiptoeing, invisible labor, friendship dynamics
• 30:01–36:54 — IMPOSTER syndrome, living the dream, pride
• 42:32–47:10 — Codependency, identity formation
• 48:14, 49:36 — “Groomed to be quiet”
• 53:08–58:14 — Sharing joy and struggle with self-worth
• 59:09–61:52 — Parental influence on adult self-trust

---

Tone and Style Observations

• The conversation is unguarded, vulnerable, and peppered with biting humor.
• Both give generous, raw glimpses into their ongoing process of emotional growth and awareness.
• Language is casual, sometimes coarse, always candid.
• The episode offers catharsis and relatability for anyone grappling with boundaries, pride, childhood conditioning, or simply the slog of human connection.

Transcript

[A]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. Enjoy. Nope.

[B]

Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And, you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use Better Help recently? Yes, I have.

[A]

I just signed up.

[B]

How'd it go?

[A]

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch, like a. There's like, two or three pages of people that I got to choose from, and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago.

[B]

Nice. Have you used their journal feature?

[A]

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.

[B]

Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know, you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just. It's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better help's a good option, and they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys. If you're listening and you want to start with BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Get in therapy. You know, it's great.

[A]

Check it out. I'm here on the job site with Dale, who's a framing contractor.

[B]

Hey, good morning.

[A]

Dale traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most.

[B]

Yep, they sure are. We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs all.

[A]

In one place with coverage that fits his business and bottom line. Oh, I shouldn't have looked down.

[B]

It's all right.

[A]

We're so far up it.

[B]

Look at me. Take a deep breath.

[A]

No, I'm good. So good.

[B]

Get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail] and see how much you could save. Get more with Geico.

[A]

Somebody shared today something I can't get out of my head, and that was. I was groomed to be quiet.

[B]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy. We need to remind you. Jesus Christ. We need to remind you that we are not therapists. We are not experts.

[A]

Not Experts.

[B]

This is not a substitute for therapy.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

And this is not professional advice in any way.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You are going to hear some ads.

[A]

A lot of ads.

[B]

Probably.

[A]

We hope so.

[B]

If you don't hear them now, they're coming. I pinky promise you that. Come. I got an email today. They're coming. If you do not want ads. If you would like to support the podcast, Patreon ad free episodes. Ad free episodes. Early episodes early.

[A]

You can get them early.

[B]

There's a bunch of bonus content over there.

[A]

Bonus stuff.

[B]

We have another show we do together.

[A]

A whole nother show.

[B]

It's called the Other Show. So go to Patreon.

[A]

Go over to Patreon.

[B]

It's a great way to support the podcast.

[A]

What a great way.

[B]

And you get rid of these ads, these terrible ads. We also have merch available secondhand therapy pod dot com. This tie dye I am wearing, you.

[A]

Can'T even see it.

[B]

Tie dye for the summer, baby.

[A]

This is the audio version.

[B]

Tie dye for the summer, baby. Just because it's the audio version doesn't mean you can't. I'm not wearing it.

[A]

Use your imaginations. You've seen tie dye. I'm.

[B]

I have a problem with you right now.

[A]

We have a problem.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So Patreon and hell no website are a great way to support the podcast. Support us if you want to contact us. All the episode. All the information is going to be in the episode description. Text us 818-850-2448.

[A]

That's the phone number.

[B]

Email us secondhand therapypod gmail.com.

[A]

We'D love to hear from you.

[B]

You can send us physical mail to our P.O. box.

[A]

We'd also love that P. P.O.

[B]

Box 230595, Las Vegas, Nevada, 89105.

[A]

Looking forward to it.

[B]

Here's episode 95.

[A]

Episode 95.

[B]

The last episode.

[A]

Thank God.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Google us. Tomorrow you'll read about the murder suicide that happened.

[A]

Can't wait. Enjoy the show.

[B]

No, it's over. There's no show. There's no show, you piece of shit.

[A]

Thank God.

[B]

Play the music already. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[A]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[B]

And we know that it is frustrating for me. Here's the thing, okay. Our last episode.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We got into it at the end.

[A]

Oh, we got it. Went off the rails.

[B]

We did some yapping.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We did some arguing. We did some bickering.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why is it that the comments on the episode are rough? Listen, this week, guys. Oh, dude. How about the first 50 minutes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How about the first 80% of the episode? Yeah, that's it. That's my gripe. That's my whole grip.

[A]

Oh, tough.

[B]

Listen, this week. Shut the up. No, it wasn't. If you did. Dude, if you don't like to hear us argue. Fair. I get it.

[A]

Then don't join Patreon.

[B]

Yeah, don't join Patreon. The other podcast is all about it.

[A]

The other podcast is just that.

[B]

Yeah. But also, you're not gonna like what I'm about to say.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Be smart enough to understand that the end of the episode isn't everything you just heard.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's all.

[A]

That's it. Yeah. Also, like, I think even when we have those discussions and we get into the weeds, like, I think it displays. I don't know if it's a good way of communication or not, but it's communication.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're not.

[B]

We're not yelling. We're not name calling.

[A]

Yeah. We're just. We're literally trying to, like, see, like, what are you saying? And what am I saying? What? And where's the miscommunication? Or what's happening?

[B]

You know, we get a lot of people talk. Do you know? I don't know what it is. Rsd.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rejection sensitivity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dysphoria, Maybe. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you familiar with that? Oh, have you talked, Like, I don't. I. The name tells me enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, have you talked about it as a possibility for you?

[A]

It absolutely 1000% is a possibility for me because that feeds into feeling attacked. Like, all those things. It's just rejection sensitivity. So, like, any of that, any kind of criticism, even if it's not criticism, sometimes feedback just is. Feels like an attack. And so. Yeah, because it feels like rejection, and that's huge in the ADHD world. Huge. So, yeah.

[B]

Oh, I got that tight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, let me tell you what I opened up therapy with this week. I said, hey, remember when you said, you think I might be hard to argue with?

[A]

She goes, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I go, I have a question. She goes, okay. I go, why is that my problem? And she said, I'm gonna need to sit with that for a second. And I said, okey doke. And she said, well, is it a problem? I was like, well, it seems to be. Seems to be the two people I live with problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People listen to the podcast problem.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah. And it's my problem. Who knew? It's my fucking problem, dude.

[A]

Why? So she agreed with that or what did she say? About what was the feedback?

[B]

You know, it's my problem. Well, the conversation we had is. Yeah. When you're. When you have relationships with people you care about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is a connection to manage and just. We'll just talk about you and I.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So for you and I to maintain a good, vulnerable connection, like, we do have.

[A]

Mh.

[B]

Essentially what we already know, we have to learn how each other communicates.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the way she put that is meet like, I. I need to work and do better at meeting you where you are. And I said, oh, okay. Why am I the only one who has to do that? And she said, well, ideally, we're all doing that for each other, so also, you need to meet me where I am, bitch.

[A]

Follow up question. Do you not think that I try to meet you where you are?

[B]

No. I think as soon as. I think as soon as your little RSD button gets pushed, it's. You're shut down and you're full defense mode. That's how it seems to me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And for me, when I think I'm trying to meet you where you are, what I'm doing is just trying to control my frustration and not get loud, not say mean things. That's me trying to meet you where you are. When me meeting you where you are is actually delivering things to you differently in a way, essentially, it is presenting myself to you in a way that is more easily digestible for you. What do you think about that?

[A]

I think that would be great.

[B]

I bet you do, dude. I fucking bet you do.

[A]

Follow up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In. So last week, you think that I'm in shutdown mode. Am I not coming across curious to you?

[B]

I'm not answering that. I'm just kidding. No, really. Honestly, I think you're very hypocritical in those moments because it comes across to me that what you're trying to do is the thing that you hate that your partner does when you. Or things you said that I do when you're like, you're asking me questions to try to bring me around to your way of seeing it.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And that's why last week I was like, what. What are you trying to get me to say? Remember that? Yeah, that's what I feel like you're doing. You're. Instead, you want me to see it your way so badly that it doesn't come across as curiosity. No, I'm not asking for an explanation.

[A]

That's what a conversation is.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I forgot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And let me meet you where you are.

[A]

Yeah, that's what A conversation is exchanging of ideas. So.

[B]

And then.

[A]

And then more exchanging ideas until we're done exchanging.

[B]

I think I'm done now. Go ahead. What do you got?

[A]

No, I'm genuinely trying to figure out how, like, what the miscommunication is and how we are, again, just. We're just, like, missing the. We're just going like this. And I'm like, how. How are we doing that? And so I'm trying to get to the root of, like, why does this matter to you so much? Or why is this so important to you? Or what's going on? And because I already know my stance or my point of view, so I'm trying to figure out, where are we missing why. Why aren't we connecting on this? So I'm not trying to bring you around to my point of view. I'm trying to figure out your point of view so I can then look at both of them and go, all right, so what the fuck is this? Yeah.

[B]

All right. The part of this conversation I had.

[A]

Okay, well.

[B]

My issue is. Oh, okay. Presenting myself to him in a way that is more digestible to him. How can I do that and remain my authentic self if I am now a presentation? What do you think about that?

[A]

I think that this is almost.

[B]

Hold on. Quick question.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What do you think about that?

[A]

I think this is almost the exact conversation we have about social politeness where you can still be your authentic self and smile or laugh at a cashier when they're trying to have a moment with you or something like that or, you know, whatever.

[B]

I disagree with that completely.

[A]

Yeah. See, I. I don't think that changes innately who you are or. Yeah.

[B]

You might not like this.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Let's stick it to important connections.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Social politeness, again, those. The things that you see is not polite. I don't see is not polite.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So moot point, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So between you and I, if you're to present me presenting myself in a different way, that's more digestible to you, you think that does not alter me being my authentic self as I'm now presenting a certain way. Also funny in my head because I know in nature, presenting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is sticking your ass in the air so someone will come put a baby in you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Put a little fox, little bear, little wolf in you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not what I'm talking about.

[A]

I'm going to use an example.

[B]

If it involves pizza, I'm done.

[A]

Let's say that I only like pepperoni pizza. No. I think this was a week ago. You've been painting.

[B]

Mm. Painting some fucking fire.

[A]

Some banger. Some bangers.

[B]

Some fire. I made a Instagram account for my art. Go find it.

[A]

And you said, yeah, you wanted to show us your art. Your girl and me. And so we come to the kitchen, we look at it. It looks great. She suggests a little color. I'm like, yeah, a little color would be great. And then your immediate.

[B]

By immediate mean my response.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was, oh, I didn't ask for your opinions. Or I didn't ask for suggestions.

[B]

Yeah, I said just like that.

[A]

Oh, I didn't ask for suggestions.

[B]

I didn't say it just like that. Oh, I'm not asking for an explanation. Nope, I was there. I said it.

[A]

Okay, well, anyways, so, yes. Being your authentic self, you can still get that point across without coming across so rough. So you just be like, oh, I appreciate it, but this is kind of my thing. I'm working on it. Or like, I appreciate your feedback, but I'm not really looking for feedback. Something like that.

[B]

And that's fine for you?

[A]

Yes. Because the other way, it's so dismissive and so rough that.

[B]

What if you didn't have rejection sensitivity?

[A]

Sure. If I'm just a normal person. A normal person, even that. I can't imagine saying to somebody, oh, I didn't ask for your opinion. If I'm showing that.

[B]

Don't traumatize it every time you restate it. Oh, I'm not asking for an explanation. That's how you say, I didn't ask for your opinion.

[A]

What did you say?

[B]

I think I said I'm not looking for either suggestions or ideas. I don't remember. It's one of those two. It was an opinion.

[A]

Suggestions.

[B]

It was either suggestion or ideas.

[A]

Oh, I'm not asking for suggestions or I'm not looking for suggestions. Something like that.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't ask for suggestions. Yeah, sounds like something I would say.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that. And for you, take rejection sensitivity of that. For you, that is completely normal treatment for somebody you care about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't have a more succinct or concise way to say that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I understand that for you to consume that purpose of what I'm saying, I gotta put some more words in there. I gotta cushion it. Yeah, yeah. That's dumb. I don't wanna. I'm gonna try. Yeah, I would rather just say, oh, yeah, I'm not looking for suggestions. Thank you, though. I. But yeah, evidently, me going, okay, thank you. It's actually not done yet. Don't want ideas. Perfect. Thanks for coming to. Look, I'm saying I know that now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That I can say what I need to say. I just have to add little. I gotta add a little parsley. Word. A little. Little side of potatoes word. Yeah. I gotta give you a whole little course meal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I gotta do it. I don't want to do it. I gotta do it.

[A]

Yeah. But you think so? But the question is, does that make you less authentic? And you feel like that makes you less authentic.

[B]

Um, well, it's a bit of a complicated thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because part of me. Yeah. That does feel very inauthentic. Because that's not what I want to say. That's not my instinct is to say. But there is a part of my authentic self that wants the people I am close and connected with and that I care about to feel that they are being treated with kindness by me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is a part of my authentic self. There's another part of my authentic self that wants the people that I am close and connected with to understand me and know that when I say I'm not looking for suggestions, that that isn't an attack.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I have all three of these parts, and, well, I can only control the one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's doing what I can do to make sure that the people I'm close and connected with feel like they're being treated with kindness by me. And if what I need to do to do what I can to make that happen is add cushion words into my sentences, I can try to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't like the way you're looking at me.

[A]

Why?

[B]

It's kind of gay. I feel like you're looking at me like I'm being a little gay boy.

[A]

No, I tick.

[B]

Why do you hate so bad when you rub your left eye?

[A]

I say tic because it's not a tic.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it makes me feel like I can't rub my eye around you now. My eye itches real bad right now.

[B]

Does it make you feel better? That was a poke. This episode's so hard to listen to, to be honest. That was a poke. Tough listen this week, guys.

[A]

Listen.

[B]

Tough Listen. Lou was really trying to be accountable, and then he made a poke. And I gotta tell you. Why are you looking at me like that?

[A]

I'm stuck on a piece. Okay, well, one, I appreciate you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Thank you for your efforts or your future efforts. I appreciate that.

[B]

You're welcome. You deserve it.

[A]

Two, I'm gonna say something you're not gonna agree with.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I verbally and physically Tiptoe around you all the time.

[B]

Well, I'm the first one. I have to take your word for it. The second one. I've never seen you tiptoe. When you say physically, what do you actually mean? Because I need to know.

[A]

Here's an example, A recent example. The other day, I pushed in the chair at the dining room table, and you said, hey, I know this is crazy, but can you make sure that the back legs of the chair are lined up with the piece of the rug? Yeah. And I said, oh, okay. Is that a thing? And you're like, it's a thing. I know, it's. I said, okay, great. It's stuff like that all around. I'm doing little things like that all over the house because I know the way that you like things or need things to be. And so I'm going out of my way or not being my authentic self because I care about you and your feelings, and so those are things that I'm doing in my little world. Yeah. And verbally.

[B]

Hold on, hold on.

[A]

Yeah, I have a question. Okay.

[B]

So me adding cushion words for you is still me being my authentic self.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But you doing little things for my comfort is you not being your authentic self?

[A]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that in my little world, I don't care if those chair legs are lined up on that rug.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But for you, I'll make sure that they are. And that doesn't affect my day whatsoever. Or like, you know what I mean? Like, that doesn't affect who I am as a person, but I'm doing it for you.

[B]

Here's.

[A]

Because if you weren't in the equation, I wouldn't do that.

[B]

But you said, I'm doing these things that are not my authentic self.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So what part of them is not your authentic self?

[A]

I. Because I don't care where those chair legs land as long as the chair is pushed.

[B]

You're doing the parts. Is a part of you that doesn't give a. There's a part of you that wants to make me. Okay, Got it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, got it.

[A]

So now, could you have said that? Yeah, I thought I did. How did I not say that?

[B]

I didn't hear, a part of me doesn't give a. And a part of me wants to do that. All I heard was, I'm doing these things that are not my authentic self.

[A]

Yeah, same, same.

[B]

Anyways, verbally.

[A]

Verbally, I approach you differently. I also know when to push and when not to push. I also. Since Coming here to Vegas, have found myself trying to work on my reaction sometimes and, like, trying to put a little space or time in between us. And that way.

[B]

You like to address immediately. Yeah, I typically do, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you and I can't. I've learned you and I can't do that.

[A]

We can't immediately address things because it's just too volatile. We're just like, yeah, but here's how I feel.

[B]

And I'm like, ah, cool. Grow up.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just leads to war. But, yeah, so. So, yeah, that. I was stuck on that part where you. Where I was like, do you not see me adding to this? And you were like, no.

[B]

Adding to this. I don't understand.

[A]

You were saying, like, why am I the one that has to do. Why am I the one that has to be accommodating?

[B]

Oh, meet you where you are.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm like, I am. And I don't know if you're aware of it, but just because I haven't outright asked you, like, how would you like to be approached or those things, I could go a step further and do that. I've just judged from past interactions and adjusted and tried to alter it, you know, in the future. Interactions with you.

[B]

Yeah, I do that with you, too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Do you wish you. Do you wish we didn't do that?

[A]

No, I think we need to do that. Because again, what we were just talking about is you and I are both emotional dudes. I mean, we're doing a podcast about our feelings. We're both emotional dudes, and we're both working on a lot of things, and those worlds can collide very easily. And what brought us together in our friendship years ago is still what binds us. You know what I mean? Those volatile emotions that. That need to be better, that want to be better, that strive for curiosity, like, all those things. But when those worlds. As those worlds collide in good ways, they can collide in bad ways as well with us. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think if we weren't making those adjustments. Well, two things I think if we weren't making those adjustments. One, we wouldn't give a. About each other, and two, I don't think we'd have. We'd be friends.

[B]

I don't know if I agree with the second one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, dude, you. You hang around a lot of people that don't treat you good, but I don't know, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think part of you would be friends with me as long as I let you.

[A]

I think we Would fight to the death, maybe.

[B]

Yeah, I could see that, too.

[A]

One of us would not be here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we're both stubborn.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[A]

And yeah, we're both just gonna, like. We would be out in that pool trying to drown each other. Like, that's how that ends. If we were to not make adjustments and want to treat each other in a way that is with kindness and trying to figure out, like, how do you work? How do I work?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, that kind of stuff.

[B]

I could see that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dude.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Talk to my mom the other day in a new way, I was like, all right. I'm letting go of all of it. Okay. Talk to my mom. Whatever we talk about is what we talk about. And this. No surprised me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, we were. She was just. We were just talking about life and, like, updates like that. And she said, I'm really happy to hear that you're living your best life.

[A]

So she doesn't listen to the show.

[B]

And then. And then she asked me a very interesting question that I've been thinking about since she said it might not look like what you thought it was going to look like, but are you living your dream right now? And I think I am.

[A]

Yeah. Mom or the banger.

[B]

And I didn't know she had that in her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you feel about that? This new communicate or new, I don't know, outlook? Is it an outlook?

[B]

I would like to point out that you just said, how do you feel about that? And not how did that make you feel?

[A]

That's right. I did that on purpose.

[B]

Thank you. How do I feel about what? The new conversation.

[A]

New out or is it an outlook? What? What is it? I don't know.

[B]

It's new.

[A]

Yeah, just.

[B]

I'm trying to just remain open. But the idea that I'm living my dream, I feel equal parts uncomfortable and grateful.

[A]

And what's the uncomfortability about?

[B]

See, right now I get what you mean by correction. Because in my head I was like, are you. You mean discomfort? Because you said uncomfortability. That's a correction. That's what you're talking about?

[A]

Is uncomfortability not a word?

[B]

No, for sure not. Okay, but that's a correction for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, I get it now. Yeah. Why does that matter? So to meet you where you are, I just keep on with the conversation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just keep dancing, as you would say.

[A]

Yeah. Don't step on my toes. We're waltzing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You're talking about this uncomfortable feeling.

[B]

So the uncomfortability is. Who the am I to be living my dream? Oof. You know, I don't know. Feels shitty to say yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I relate to you because I'm like. I feel like I'm bragging if I say yes. How many people can you say, are you living your dream? And they can say yes?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one, Dude. Who the fuck am I? Yeah.

[A]

Got a little imposter syndrome going on.

[B]

Yes. But I look at it realistically. I have a podcast with my best friend that's doing very well. I. That is my only job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A podcast. The business side of the podcast. The rest of my life is whatever I want it to be. I'm not wealthy, I'm not famous. I'm not living on a yacht or traveling everywhere. But my life. I have a lot of freedom in my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't have a schedule. I live with my partner. I see her every day. We, if we want, could eat every meal together throughout the day, and we often do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We have breakfast together. Maybe we go to the gym together. And then I work. She has her hobby. She does her thing, Grab lunch, like, cook lunch together, back to work, do whatever, have dinner together, maybe get in the pool. Like, what a great fucking life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't work for anybody. And this job that I very much.

[A]

Enjoy.

[B]

Is enough to pay my bills currently. And, like, okay. Yeah, I have roommates.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't have my own place. Yeah. I don't. I might. I have to drive a 2008, like, truck. It's great.

[A]

Yeah. But these are all choices that you made.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

These aren't choices that you were left with.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I know, but, like, yeah, I don't know. I guess that's not everybody's dream. And maybe, like I said, it's not the way I thought it would look. But, yeah, I think I'm living my dream right now. I started painting, and evidently I'm pretty good at it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who knew?

[A]

Yeah. Bangers, dude.

[B]

Yeah. So I don't know. I've been thinking about that a lot.

[A]

So how do you get more comfortable?

[B]

Probably the ultimate therapy goal of dealing with my shame and understanding that I'm good enough and I deserve good things just for existing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I also have this thing that I think a lot of. A lot of. I think it's one of the things that. One of the common threads that humans have in that, like, I struggle. I struggle to feel proud of myself because the outcome is the expectation. Like, you know, oh, you have a podcast that's Paying your bills? Yeah. How the fuck else was this supposed to end? I've quit. I can't be proud of it. Like, that's the expectation.

[A]

When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe, Allbirds or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, skills, sleek branding and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business.

[B]

For millions of brands, that engine is.

[A]

Shopify, making selling seamless for them and.

[B]

Shopping effortless for us.

[A]

Upgrade your business and get the same.

[B]

Checkout Alo Yoga uses.

[A]

Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com retail, all lowercase to shopify.com retail. To upgrade your selling today, shopify.com retail.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

Do you have any interest in changing expectations?

[B]

I would love to become allergic to expectations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know that. Like, that painting I just finished, I. Every time one, like, hanging it up by my desk. So uncomfortable.

[A]

Really.

[B]

It feels so pretentious and like, such an asshole thing to do, but I really like it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I catch myself every time I walk by just, like, stopping and looking at it because I really like it.

[A]

And.

[B]

Yeah. I was just looking at it earlier today, and my girl came up and she's like, it's really cool. And it took me a good minute to get the words out of my mouth, but I was like, yeah, I'm really proud of it. Saying that out loud felt like the most embarrassing, like, pretentious bullshit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, my instincts is just to be like, yeah, it's all right, I guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is that? You deal with that shit, huh?

[A]

Yeah. That's part of the language of commisery. Have you always struggled with pride?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

When's the last time?

[B]

I don't want to answer this. Go ahead.

[A]

Last time a parental figure told you they were proud of you.

[B]

In that last conversation with my mom.

[A]

Before that.

[B]

My mom has never not. She's always told me she's proud of me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the things she's proud of me for, they were the always the expectation for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I bought my first house when I was 22.

[A]

So they didn't align with the things that you thought you should be proud of. They were more like the things that just kind of go with like, hey, you bought a house. I'm proud of you. Hey, yeah, here's a car. I'm proud of you.

[B]

Just like, yeah. Bought a house when I was 22. I'm really proud of you. Like, I was like, okay, but, like, you're supposed to buy a house.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

That's what you're supposed to do. Yeah. I don't. Whatever. The thing is, that was already the expectation. If you're gonna be proud of me. I thi. I. Okay. I think. What? I think if you're gonna be proud of me, I better have done something extraordinary.

[A]

That's what I was just gonna ask. So what would it take?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Something that's not expected, I guess. Yeah.

[B]

And even then, I might just play it cool.

[A]

A painting.

[B]

Who knows? Somebody else that. And be like, yeah, I don't really like it. I just, like, hope that they're like, dude, it's cool. I'm like, nah, I guess I mean, like, just so insecure about being proud of something you did. It's so weird.

[A]

When was the last time you were proud of something you did?

[B]

Downstairs. Were you not listening?

[A]

Besides.

[B]

Oh, what are we.

[A]

What are we doing here besides that? Uh.

[B]

I don't know, man. I don't look at. Yeah. I guess I don't take the time to look at my life through a lens of being proud of myself. It's all expectation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I set out to do something, I expect to complete it. And when I complete it. Yeah. That's what you're supposed to do. Yeah. I don't want to talk anymore.

[A]

I know you don't.

[B]

So what's up with you? What's up with you? What'd you do this afternoon?

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

What'd you do? I heard you were in here. Sounded like a meeting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What kind of meeting?

[A]

Yeah, I've been. Been going to Coda.

[B]

Hell, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I'm about six or seven weeks in.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not working, huh?

[A]

Not yet. I thought I'd just go to one and be done with it. Yeah. Is heartbreaking and eye opening every single week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of times what we're talking about. Because what we'll do is you'll have, like, what are the codependency behaviors? And then what is a healed person's behaviors? And then you'll see them side by side. And a lot of times when we're going down the list because we'll do, like, three or four of them in a. In a meeting and try to get through them. And so usually I look at the three or four things that we're talking about, and I'm like, I don't have any of this, like, this is a waste of my time today. And then as people are sharing, I'm like, oh, that's what that is. Okay. Yeah, I got that. I got that. I got that. And every single time. And then I end up sharing. And then it's just like, I don't know, man. Hearing other people. Other people's stories that are similar but so different than mine. Some feel like my childhood and others feel like some kind of movie that you're just listening to kind of thing, and you're like, jesus. Like, it's so heartbreaking. And.

[B]

Like, what?

[A]

Today we were talking about. Oh, God. Today we were talking about where codependency starts from. Where do you get it? Any guesses?

[B]

Yeah. A safe space. The papa was a mama.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Today we were talking about where it comes from. And one of the things that they had talked about was similar to what you're talking about is expectation. Right. So when you're growing up, for me at least, like, I always thought that my behaviors were links to people pleasing. Right. Or just trying to be accepted. That's why I would just be whoever you needed me to be. I would be a chameleon. When I'm with the jocks, I'm jock talking. When I'm with the skaters, we're skateboard talk and this and that. Like, I am whoever I'm in company with.

[B]

Did you ever do the things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like when you're jockeying, Are you jockeying your skateboard? Your skateboard.

[A]

I played football. I had. When with the alternative kids. I had both my ears pierced and, you know, wearing Jinko jeans and all that.

[B]

Did you ever hacky sack?

[A]

I hacky sacked. Your boy was a sacker.

[B]

I hacky sacked in high school.

[A]

A little bit, yeah.

[B]

A little bit I made fun of. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was no good at it.

[B]

Oh, I was very good.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, boy. Yeah. Daddy's coordinated.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Daddy's daddy will surprise you.

[A]

You think you still got the. Does the hack sack?

[B]

I think my ankles are done.

[A]

Yeah. But I linked all that to people pleasing. I thought that I was just who I needed to be in those moments for acceptance. And it kind of is. Codependency is acceptance. Right. But there's another layer to it where this is where the expectations come in, where you as a kid especially, you are told who you are supposed to be or who you were expected to be. And I felt that so much. I lived in these parameters of who. What was expected of me and that I didn't know how to be me.

[B]

Who set the expectations. You know, I want you to say it.

[A]

You know who did it.

[B]

Who said, you know who did it? I think. I think papa thinks it was Mama. Of course it was papa thinking Mama. Of course it was papa thinking Mama. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And so from a very young age, I didn't have identity. I still don't have identity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and people are like, so what do you like to do? What are your hobbies? I don't have any. I don't know what I like. Yeah, tell me what I like.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I know that's a very general, like, tell me what I like. But that truly is. I see that in you so much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like the simplest things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I want to get some Chinese food. Like, if I don't tell you where to go, Chai Chinese food, you're not going to try Chinese food.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have to be told where to go.

[A]

I have very little self assurance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Partly because of codependency and partly because Mama did everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I never had to make those decisions. I never had to rely on myself. I never had to do any of those things. Yeah. Somebody shared today something I can't get out of my head. And that was, I was groomed to be quiet.

[B]

It's better than the alternative grooming.

[A]

Yeah, maybe.

[B]

Probably.

[A]

I was groomed to be quiet, and that has stuck with me all day.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

That's exactly what it was. You don't cause rifts. You don't fight back. You don't stand up for yourselves. You just. You just keep your head down and. Yeah. So, yeah. That broke my heart.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting. Groomed to be quiet.

[A]

I was groomed to be quiet.

[B]

And that. That implies. Yeah. You're quiet so you don't make anyone else uncomfortable. Angry.

[A]

Yep. You have to be easygoing.

[B]

Just be a good boy.

[A]

Yeah. If you're not easy going, then nobody's going to want to be around you. Don't you know that? Hey, what if I'm the one speaking up for my needs? Then you're going to be like, this guy's a problem. Get him out of here.

[B]

In some households, yes.

[A]

Yeah. And that, I mean, that's just my. That's what's been ingrained in me is just like, shut up, take what you get and just be happy that you're here. And. Yeah, I struggle with that a lot. There's also talks about somebody brought up isolation.

[B]

Open your eyes.

[A]

Why? Let me run away.

[B]

No, there's nothing to run from. Hey, no, One's chasing you, dude. It's all good. Yeah.

[A]

Isolation. I didn't know that was a codependency thing. I thought that was just, like, a regular sad thing. But isolation going hand in hand with not being able to be who I am or my authentic self or whatever. Isolation allows me to be whoever I need to be because nobody's around to see it.

[B]

For you.

[A]

For me.

[B]

Who's that?

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

When no one else is around. Who's that guy?

[A]

I don't know. He's always sad in those moments, so I don't know. I can't judge who that is because it's always. He's always wounded when he's there.

[B]

So you isolate when you're wounded.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Never isolate at a high point to, like, enjoy it on your own terms.

[A]

I don't know. I'm not trying to be dramatic.

[B]

You better say the most dramatic. Let's hear it.

[A]

I don't know when.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Those times are high points. Yeah. H.

[B]

I don't believe that. Okay, so when you're excited about something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is that? Is that performative?

[A]

No, that's. That's genuine excitement.

[B]

That's not a high point.

[A]

I. I feel like high points are, like, attached to achievement or something. When you're like, ah, we're here. We did it. We made it. Like, that kind of. Is that a high point, or you just mean, like.

[B]

I mean, whatever's a high point for you.

[A]

Yeah. I think high points are set real high for me.

[B]

How high.

[A]

Man? I don't know.

[B]

What's the last high point you can think of?

[A]

It's always. No, you know what? It's not always, but a lot of times it's attached to again, like an achievement I was really happy with. I was really happy with my last special.

[B]

And life after death.

[A]

No, wait and see.

[B]

Wait and see.

[A]

It's really happy with wait and see. Okay. And going to Ben's house and doing the live stream and, like, premiering it and, like, having close friends there and I don't know, that felt like something. It felt like celebration. That felt like a high point.

[B]

About moving in this house. I'm trying to think of. At times I've seen you be like, I can't believe this right now.

[A]

Yeah. I don't. That doesn't. That's not a high point for me. That's excited. That's joy. Something like that. I don't know if it counts for me because I. I didn't do it. We did it.

[B]

Yeah. You do Struggle to share. I've noticed that about you.

[A]

Yeah. And not in a selfish way, in an unselfish way where I go, oh, I had nothing to do with that. I'm like, that's all you guys. So, like. Yeah, that's how I feel about that, where I'm like, oh, I'm a piece of. I didn't add to that. You know what I mean? Now, that's a whole separate thing. But that's how I feel because I'm like, oh, that's not. I didn't have anything to do with that. I'm. Yeah. I don't feel worthy of the joy or the praise.

[B]

Praise from who?

[A]

Anybody who's like, great house. Great spot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I'm just like, oh, cool. Now, if I had done this all myself, I think it would be different. I'd be like, oh, thank you. I worked really hard.

[B]

Interesting. I don't. Yeah, okay.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. Whenever you have people over, you always seem very proud to, like, show off the house.

[A]

You're like, huh, Yeah, I like it. I like, oh, I love it here. But I don't.

[B]

So what is that pride of like. Ah. What do you think? Like, what is that?

[A]

It's just like, isn't this a cool spot? It's not a. Isn't my house cool? It's just like, isn't this fucking a cool little spot?

[B]

What's the difference? This is your house?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You just live here?

[A]

Yeah, I just live here.

[B]

You just live at my house?

[A]

Kind of. I don't know.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's wild.

[A]

Yeah. That a weird thing?

[B]

I don't feel that way.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

Why do you think you feel that way? I. To me, this is just as much my house as it is your house, and it is my girl's house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

That's when you're like, do you mind if I come swim with you guys? It's your pool.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. I think sometimes I. I don't want to interrupt your life, you know?

[B]

Okay. You're a part of my life.

[A]

I know that. I'm a part of your life.

[B]

You don't. You don't know that.

[A]

I do.

[B]

No, you don't.

[A]

I don't want to be in the way. I don't want to overstep. I don't want to be in the way. I don't want to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just got to be quiet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have a question.

[A]

Great. I love questions.

[B]

A lot of the time. Tonight, for example, one of the things you said was, mom always did that. I never had to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've said this to you before. She's been dead almost 10 years. Have you just been stuck in time? What? What happened the past 10 years?

[A]

I don't know. What do you mean?

[B]

No one's doing the things for you anymore?

[A]

Yes and no.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think I lean on different people for different things because I don't trust myself. And so, yeah, I'm a part of those things, but I'm not the one doing the whole thing because I don't trust myself enough to do the whole thing. You just helped me sign up for health care.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Because I didn't trust myself enough to do it.

[B]

Yeah. When we did it, were you like. Did you think I could have done that?

[A]

I don't know. I don't think so. I think I would have it up.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I don't know. I don't pay attention to detail like you do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I think I would have missed something.

[B]

I have another question.

[A]

Yeah?

[B]

Do you think. And I want you to be honest with yourself.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If you don't want to be honest with me, that's fine. But be honest with yourself at least. I don't know the answer to this question. Looking back and everything you. Everything you know, now that you've learned.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think your mom ever wanted you to be capable to do things on your own? I guess what I'm really asking is, do you think your mom prepared you to always need her so she could feel like she had a purpose? And we know that.