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Robert Reeves
Ruby. It's been heard in the hills whispered across the desert sands.
Bill Lyons
A sound you can't ignore that grips you in its trance.
Jesse Martin
It's a comfort and a joy with wisdom for all your days.
Mick Peterson
No, it's not a new season of heated rivalry. It's Silver linings with the gays.
Jesse Martin
It's true. We're back for season two. More great stories, thoughtful conversations, and a whole lot of gang.
Mick Peterson
From just beyond the lights of Los Angeles in steamy Palm Springs, California, it's Mickey, Robert, Bill, Jesse. And this is silver linings with the
Robert Reeves
old gays,
Mick Peterson
inspired by all of those who got hooked on heated rivalry last fall. Today we're talking through something that shapes all of us, whether we realize it or not. Movies and television.
Jesse Martin
Wait, where's the gay?
Robert Reeves
What?
Mick Peterson
Gay?
Bill Lyons
Exactly.
Robert Reeves
To kick off season two with a bang across two episodes, we'll chat about all things gay and queer in mainstream movies and television from throughout our lives
Jesse Martin
and how it affected all of us.
Mick Peterson
Because when we were kids, mainstream and gay really never shared the same sentence.
Bill Lyons
Over our lifetimes, we've watched the pendulum
Jesse Martin
swing from coded subtexts to caricatures to
Mick Peterson
full blown love stories on the big screen.
Bill Lyons
We're talking about the betrayals that scared
Jesse Martin
us, the ones that encouraged us, and
Robert Reeves
the ones that absolutely missed the mark
Mick Peterson
till we finally share all of our real opinions on heated rivalry.
Jesse Martin
So press the play button.
Robert Reeves
Part one starts now. Hello. So today we're going to do the first 100 years of queer film, starting at the turn of the 20th century and ending in 1981 with the publication of the celluloid closet. But to kick us off, let's start with our new segment, my current Addiction. This is where we get to share something that we're newly very into.
Bill Lyons
My current addiction is shrimp tacos from Del Taco.
Jesse Martin
Okay, why at this point in your life?
Bill Lyons
Because they're seasonal and this is the only time right now I can get them.
Mick Peterson
Bill likes shrimp everything.
Jesse Martin
Yes, he does. We know that.
Robert Reeves
Fish.
Jesse Martin
In all forms.
Robert Reeves
Do you like salmon roe, Bill?
Bill Lyons
Yes, very much.
Jesse Martin
How about caviar?
Bill Lyons
That is salmon.
Jesse Martin
That shows Miss Kansas here.
Robert Reeves
My current addiction today is what it was yesterday. AI driven porn. I have discovered AI muscle porn. I tell you, I. Well, let's put it this way. My hand's a little weak right now, And they're virtual, which means they're perfect. Okay, with that out of the way, it's time to talk about the first 100 years of queer film. This is going to be a freewheeling
Jesse Martin
conversation and Now a word from Mick.
Robert Reeves
The Dixon Experimental Sound Film was made by William Dixon in late 1894 and early 1895. It is the first known film with live recorded sound and appears to be the first motion picture made for the Thomas Edison Studios. The film features Dixon playing a violin into a recording horn. Two men are dancing together to the music, and it lasts 17 seconds. In other words, from the very beginning of film, queer people have been right there in front of the camera and probably behind the camera as well. The reason why I chose, or we chose 1981. It came with the publication of this book, the Celluloid Closet. And what it did is it looked back 100 years of history to show how queer people were portrayed in film and the progression of all of that. And that things really didn't start to break apart until after 1968, when the motion Picture Production Code was abolished. And, you know, that code was very insidious. Among the things was how certain gay characters were actually erased and made into straight characters. But to quote, if there were no gays, there would be no Hollywood. And that quote is attributed to Elizabeth Taylor. Yes.
Mick Peterson
Okay. What's the first time you remember seeing queerness in mainstream media, even if it was subtle or you didn't really fully understand it to be queer at the time?
Jesse Martin
Well, for me, it's not necessarily queerness that was depicted, but the first time I can remember when my emotions were stirred, if you will, was from a TV series in the mid-1950s produced by Disney called Spin and Marty. And it was a story about two young boys who would spend the summers at camp, and they would have interactions as young boys do. And I knew that there was something different about me. I was about 12 years old at the time, and so that's my first connection between media and gayness, if you will.
Mick Peterson
Sweet.
Bill Lyons
I remember that. Did you ever see Suddenly last Summer?
Jesse Martin
I don't recall. I don't think I did.
Bill Lyons
Okay. Because my first time I saw mainstream queerness was Suddenly last Summer.
Robert Reeves
The play was written by Tennessee Williams, and it's about a young woman, and she finds herself in a mental hospital. She's the patient of a surgeon, played by Montgomery Cliff. And the wealthy aunt, played by Katharine Hepburn, wants Elizabeth Taylor's character to be lobotomized because she holds a secret about what happened to the wealthy aunt's son and her son's unbelievable death.
Bill Lyons
Well, when I saw it, I. I was 16 years old, and I went with my best friend. And when I left the film, I was so confused and upset. At the same time, yes, I was gay, but it was such a shocking movie to see the gay character being cannibalized by young boys that I walked out of the theater just shaking my head. I didn't know what to think about. It scared me and it really bothered me.
Robert Reeves
Yeah, that's a sick movie.
Bill Lyons
It was so disturbing to see.
Mick Peterson
I don't look.
Jesse Martin
I probably did not because I. I look at. Actually did not go to movies like that. I went to more light hearted stuff.
Mick Peterson
My thing was all fun stuff, Liberace and all of them, the glitter. And I knew from birth that I liked men and Tom Jones, just those hips. The movie stuff I didn't know because I wasn't allowed to go to movies.
Jesse Martin
So the first mainstream movie that I saw was Auntie Mame. That was really strongly left an impression on me and made gayness acceptable in some very subtle way.
Bill Lyons
It was an absolutely wonderful movie. I mean, it was so well cast.
Mick Peterson
All versions of it.
Bill Lyons
Yes, yes, all versions of it.
Robert Reeves
Okay. Following that, there was a film in 1959 entitled Ben Hur. One of the stars who played Messala was played by an actor who I think is so hot still, Stephen Boyd. He was Australian and he just couldn't understand the part. He just couldn't understand the motivation as to why Masella would be so cruel to the family of Ben Hur. And so he went to one of the writers who was a Gore Vidal, and they came up with a story and that was this. Messala was a lover of Ben Hur who was rejected by Judah Ben Hur. And so everything else that follows in the film is his revenge.
Jesse Martin
Well, Ben Hur is the only movie you mentioned that I recognize. And I know that during the 50s, living in Jonesboro, Arkansas, we only had one movie house. And so the Saturday at the cinema was the thing to do. And whenever they had movies such as Ben Hur or Gladiator Gladiators or whatever, you know, I'd be there watching and salivating. And I didn't know for sure why I was doing that.
Mick Peterson
Ben Hur takes me back to college. I went to a school where they didn't play movies and stuff, but every year we had Ben Hur. And I go, why are they playing this movie? Over and over? But I was there watching. Every year I saw him roll over. That one guy who unfortunately really got killed. But it was, that's my Ben Hur. And they were sexy, baby.
Bill Lyons
I really don't remember that much about Ben Hur, but I love the whole genre of The Gladiators, the pyramids, the Egyptians, the Ten Commandments, the muscles. I loved all those movies because they were all totally muscle bound guys.
Jesse Martin
Yeah.
Robert Reeves
Let me ask you this question. Was there any mainstream media that gave you permission to come out?
Jesse Martin
No.
Mick Peterson
Sure wasn't. Lord have mercy.
Robert Reeves
You know, I remember an episode of all in the Family. It's not the famous one where Archie gives a drag queen mouth to mouth resuscitation. It's a scene where Archie, she goes to a drinking buddy of his who's this really hot guy.
Bill Lyons
I remember that.
Robert Reeves
And he's complaining about that Rob Reiner and Suzanne Struthers, his children had brought home this guy who was very fae acting and he kept griping about it to this drinking buddy. And he looks at Archie and he says, well, Archie, you know I'm gay. And Archie's mouth drops open. And then the guy says, archie, in all the years that I've known you, we've been drinking at this table. Have I ever once mentioned a woman and like a light went off in my head and I said, oh, this is much more interesting than I thought. Maybe my thoughts about a guy like that are real.
Mick Peterson
Don't judge a book by a shell.
Bill Lyons
I remember that.
Robert Reeves
The actuality is that people who are gay are all around you and they're all typ.
Mick Peterson
This ad is brought to you by Vive Healthcare, the makers of Devato Dolutegravir, lamivudine.
Robert Reeves
We're here, we're queer, and we're old.
Jesse Martin
Honey, these knees may not disco like they used to, but I'm still dancing to my own beat.
Bill Lyons
When you're gay, being old is something to celebrate.
Mick Peterson
That's the T right there. For those of us who survived the HIV AIDS epidemic, there's a big sense of gratitude for every day at the disco.
Robert Reeves
And now we love to see the next generation learning to use their voice, build strong community and think about treatment options.
Bill Lyons
Devato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devato is right for you.
Jesse Martin
Unlike most HIV treatments that have three or four medicines, Dovato has just two medicines in one pill.
Robert Reeves
No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines to help you stay undetectable than Dovato.
Pharmaceutical Announcer
It is unknown if Dovato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have Hep B, don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide due to serious or life threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding or planned pregnancy.
Jesse Martin
Whether you are a disco diva or sugar daddy, know the power of of staying undetectable.
Bill Lyons
So if you're living with hiv, do dream about tomorrow.
Robert Reeves
Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines.
Mick Peterson
Do Devato visit devato.com or call 1-877-844-8872 to.
Jesse Martin
And now it's time for a message to my younger self.
Bill Lyons
If I could tell my younger self something about queerness in the media, I would tell them that gays are not all bad, gays aren't that evil, but we have a right to be ourselves and a lot of people look at us poorly in that. But we are making great inroads.
Robert Reeves
If I could tell my younger self something about queerness in media, I would tell them we're fucked.
Mick Peterson
Okay, next question. Back to Memory Lane. What about the Boys in the band in 1970? Do you remember that happening?
Bill Lyons
For those who may not know, the Boys in the Band by Mark Crowley was a play in a movie about a birthday party of gay men in New York where secrets and social pressures made everyone spiral.
Jesse Martin
Yeah, that was kind of an event and I definitely remember that. And I related to it because by this point in time I had graduated college, I was in a relationship. I had a social circle of gay friends and a few fag hags, if you will. And the characters that were portrayed, I saw a lot of my friends and the interactions were very relatable. So that was definitely kind of a reaffirming in a strange way movie for me.
Bill Lyons
Well, I thought it was very, very funny because they included almost every stereotype you can imagine in the movie. And I laughed all the way through it. And it was 1970, I was in San Francisco and I mean, it was extremely popular. But then something happened and like 20 years or 25 years later, I saw the movie again. But this time I was disgusted with the movie because they were so stereotyped. And it really bothered me. I thought how could I change so quick into loving these characters and all of a sudden feeling they were degrading me because I was in the interior design business and they had a Very flamboyant interior designer in Boys in the Band. But it's funny. I changed my whole thought about the movie after seeing it 20 years later.
Robert Reeves
It's this whole idea that we can't be happy. We cannot be happy. We don't even have a chance at pursuing happiness. And that's just not the way it is. We're in so many ways, just like everybody else. We haven't talked about things like Soap.
Mick Peterson
Oh, the TV show.
Robert Reeves
The TV show, which had a gay returning character, which I thought was very funny because it was a set up. It was a farce. Yeah, a farce. And you laughed with it and you thought, yeah, yeah, the stereotypes, you know, and that's why they were putting it down.
Mick Peterson
That's because it was written by straight men who had the same idea that everybody else. That we're miserable people.
Robert Reeves
Yeah. You know, if you want to talk about another film, a mainstream media that gave you permission to come out was a film called the Producers. And of course it features. Okay, well, the setup is another perfect crime. And that shows that are a financial disaster, that close on opening night are never audited by the IRS. So you can sell 150 of a show, but because it goes belly up, you hold on to the proceeds. And that's what the producers in the movies conspire to do. And one of the things they do is to guarantee the show is gonna flop. We're gonna hire the worst director on Broadway, Roger dubois. And Roger dubois, no wonder, is a drag queen. And the scene that he comes in and he's wearing a black girdle, right? And his assistant is a man who wears tight black pants, a black turtleneck that goes all the way up to his chin. And he had monocle and a Van Dyke kind of beard. And he would look at you with through his monocle. And his name was Carmen Gia. Anyway, so they go to this house and he says, oh, I don't want to do another musical. You know, Dewey show. Girls in flashy dresses doing the same time step. 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3. Oh, it's enough to make you puke. And it's so.
Mick Peterson
I loved it. Yeah, I loved it. I like gay things. Gay characters gave me freedom. Anybody gay bad or anything. It was just like I was seeing somebody that I could relate to. Not the typical macho man, but I like those macho men, too. That's what I'm attracted to, being as dainty as I am. Yeah, I loved it because I didn't see it. I was In Tennessee, you know, this was like a dessert at the end of a meal to me. Every time I saw a gay person, I would just, like, stop. And even at home, I could be running around, but something gay would come on and. And my parents still didn't know. They were sweet. But, yes, it stopped me every time.
Jesse Martin
What about John Waters films? Did those find their way to you? And how did they affect you?
Bill Lyons
Well, I hope you won't take away my gay card, but I've never seen a John Walters movie.
Mick Peterson
And I might have, but I don't know who he is. Was. Is.
Jesse Martin
I remember in the 70s scene, pink flamingos with Divine. And it was kind of a disgusting movie in lots of ways. Divine as an example. One of the most memorable scenes for me was when Divine, dressed in her drag, ate dog Doo doo.
Robert Reeves
That's at the end of the picture.
Jesse Martin
And that kind of disgusted me, you know.
Robert Reeves
It is one of the most disgusting films you will ever see. I mean, I read the review of it, and it's now considered a. A piece of abstract art.
Mick Peterson
That's what they call it. Abstract.
Robert Reeves
It's abstract, yes. And I thought, abstract, okay, well, you know, those who do, do.
Mick Peterson
Yeah.
Jesse Martin
But then a few years later, he did produce the movie Tracy Turnblatt, Baltimore Hairspray. Hairspray, yeah. Which was very fun and uplifting and definitely not disgusting.
Mick Peterson
No.
Bill Lyons
What about Rocky Horror Picture Show?
Jesse Martin
Yeah.
Robert Reeves
You know, in Orange county, when I was going to graduate school at Irvine, you know, everybody wanted to go out for Rocky Horror Picture Night. Everybody wanted to go everywhere.
Jesse Martin
Yes.
Robert Reeves
And I just thought, no, this isn't for me. You know, I prefer watching Pumping Iron. You know, I'm into Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Bill Lyons
I really thought the movie was just big camp, you know. I mean, it was totally different from any other movie I've ever seen before or since.
Jesse Martin
Tim Curry's costumes, though, were outrageous. The way he carried off the character.
Robert Reeves
Oh, yes. And how he seduces the young man. Yes.
Jesse Martin
Yeah.
Robert Reeves
Yeah. And that also comes up all the time because gay and lesbian characters are usually depicted as predators victimizing unsuspecting young people. That is a common place that you see throughout film. Yeah.
Bill Lyons
Next question. What was the difference between the gay identity you were living and the way it was being depicted on screen was this attention for you?
Mick Peterson
I thought that I was the only queer little boy in my hometown. So seeing somebody up on the screen let me know. It's like, it's kind of okay, but you still gotta be quiet because your dad's a cop and he'll kill you if he finds out in Tennessee, you know? So it was an eye opener. It was a freeing time for me. Anything gay I wanted to see.
Jesse Martin
Yeah, it was kind of a gradual acceptance that I felt. Even though the characters weren't always complementary, the fact that they were even being depicted was a big difference for me. And so I felt like, in a strange way, there was hope for better
Robert Reeves
times ahead because of the time that I came out and also the fact that I was studying to be an actor. I was very critical of these types of films. What I saw was nothing that had to do with the life that I was living. There just seems to have been this disconnect and this refusal to see us, at least in Hollywood at that time. And it's even worse in European cinema. I think of the movie Z by Costa Gravas, which is a very homophobic film. I'm also thinking about a film called the Killing of Sister George, which is about a lesbian soap opera star who finds out that she's being axed. Her part is being killed, and at the same time, her companion, her lifetime lover, played by Susannah Yorke, leaves her. So she's out of a job and her lover has left her. And at the very end of the play, she finds out, well, you can go back to the soap opera, but you have to play, I believe, the front part of a cow. And she's absolutely mortified. But at the end of the movie, there's a pin spot on the character, the lead character, George, and she says, moo.
Mick Peterson
Okay,
Bill Lyons
And that's a wrap.
Mick Peterson
All right, boys, you know what time it is. What's your silver lining for season two of the podcast?
Jesse Martin
Yeah, I'm very excited about it.
Robert Reeves
Just seeing where everything lands, you know, everything. Every one of these things is a new experience. It's a new adventure, and you never know how it's going to turn out. So that's the beauty of it.
Mick Peterson
And I like the unknown part of it, not totally knowing what's going to happen. I like natural stuff. I really do.
Bill Lyons
And I like it because I'm learning so much more about my friends here that I never knew before. I'm appreciating it because I'm really learning a lot about the old gay.
Mick Peterson
Because he didn't read the book.
Robert Reeves
I'm kidding,
Mick Peterson
but for real. A shameless plug for our audiobook, the Old Gay's Guide to the Good Life. Available wherever you get your audiobooks. Nice. But, you know, we're learning, too. Everybody's in this game together called life.
Robert Reeves
Are you weeping over there?
Bill Lyons
Next time on Silver Linings with the old gays.
Robert Reeves
1981, the celluloid closet and what made everything change. Still want to know our thoughts on heated rivalry? Tune in to wear for part two.
Bill Lyons
Silver Linings is a production of iHeart's Ruby Studios and the Outspoken Network. We're your hosts, Bill Lyons, Robert Reeves,
Mick Peterson
Mick Peterson and Jesse Martin. Our executive producer is Sierra Kaiser. Supervising producer, Kelly Kyle Story production Ryan Amador with post post production by Eric Zeiler. See you in two weeks.
Jesse Martin
Subject matter comes across much better when it's done in a comedic way. Why the Golden Girls were so successful
Bill Lyons
I kind of related to Will as in Will and Grace because I worked in a clothing store, but I had to act straight.
Robert Reeves
I don't know what it takes to open these guys up. I think they should all get stoned.
Pharmaceutical Announcer
This ad is brought to you by VIIV Healthcare, the makers of Devado Dolutegravir Lamivudine. Devato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devato is right for you. With time comes perspective and sometimes the silver linings show up where you least expect them. If you're living with hiv, find out how you could stay undetectable with fewer medicines. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines to help you stay undetectable than Dovato.
It is unknown if Devato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have hep B. Don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Dofetilide due to serious or life threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Devato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding or planned pregnancy.
Do create your own path forward. Visit devato.com or call 1-877-844-8872 to learn more.
This is an I Heart Podcast.
Robert Reeves
Guaranteed human.
Release Date: April 28, 2026
Hosts: Robert Reeves, Jessay Martin, Bill Lyons, Mick Peterson
This episode kicks off Season 2 of Silver Linings with The Old Gays by launching a deep (and at times, delightfully campy) discussion about the history of queer representation in mainstream film and television. The hosts—Robert, Jessay, Bill, and Mick—draw from their lifetimes of personal experiences and cultural shifts, tracing portrayals of queerness from the earliest days of cinema up until 1981, bookended by the landmark publication of The Celluloid Closet. The conversation explores evolving depictions, moments of affirmation and trauma, coded subtext vs. outright stories, and how these representations shaped and reflected the identities of gay men through the decades.
| Segment | Time | |---------|---------------| | Season intro & Main theme | 00:57 – 02:21 | | 'My Current Addiction' Segment | 02:29 – 04:20 | | Earliest known queer film | 04:29 – 06:10 | | First queer media memories | 06:10 – 12:19 | | Coming out & media | 12:19 – 13:56 | | Message to younger self | 16:29 – 17:20 | | Boys in the Band & evolving stereotypes| 17:20 – 22:12 | | John Waters, Rocky Horror | 23:05 – 25:41 | | Real life vs. representation | 26:02 – 28:29 | | Hosts reflect on season | 28:34 – 29:52 |
The Old Gays use their lived experience and keen memories to illuminate the struggles and joys of being queer onscreen and off, highlighting both the pain of erasure and the thrill of recognition—even if coded or camp. Their laughter, candor, and occasional shade make for a rollicking, reflective hour that honors the endurance and evolution of queer visibility in Hollywood.
Next episode: The conversation moves into the 1980s, exploring how pivotal moments and stories (including The Celluloid Closet and contemporary shows like Heated Rivalry) altered the course of representation.