Romance Before Apps: “Boyfriends are something you have between lovers.”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Silver Linings with The Old Gays

Episode: Romance Before Apps: “Boyfriends are something you have between lovers.”

Released: May 26, 2026
Hosts: Robert Reeves (“Robert Briefs”), Jessay Martin, Bill Lyons, and Michael “Mick” Peterson

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Episode Overview

In this candid and nostalgic episode, The Old Gays reminisce about what romance and dating looked like before the era of dating apps. Through hilarious and touching stories, they reflect on first crushes, heartbreaks, secret codes of queer attraction, changing expectations in relationships, and how the world of gay romance has shifted over decades. The episode’s tone is playful, unapologetically frank, and rich with personal wisdom gleaned from navigating love long before swipes, likes, and selfies.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Nerve and Nuance of Pre-App Romance

• The group opens by contrasting today’s digital dating world with their own formative years, when romance required in-person courage:
  • “When we got started, there were no apps, no swiping left, no profile pictures—just vibes and energy IRL.” — Bill Lyons (01:33)
  • Flirting, eye contact, and intuition (“gaydar”) were key to navigating attraction and discovering who was “family.”
• Robert highlights that young people now socialize at bars and then use the internet to find romance, which feels foreign to the group’s earlier experience. (10:10, 33:30)

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2. First Crushes & Early Experiences

• Robert Briefs: Shares about “Roger,” a men’s store customer who gave him rides home, leading to a gentle, confusing first kiss. (02:09–04:11)
  • “We were just sitting there talking...when he said goodbye to me, he leaned over and he kissed me on the ear.” (02:50)
• Jessay Martin: Remembers a sleepover with Billy Earl in junior high, culminating in his first exploratory kiss and awakening. (04:11–06:28)
  • “He said, ‘Here, let me show you.’ And he planted a big kiss on my lips that I remember to this day.” (05:03)
• Bill Lyons: His first crush was his cousin’s boyfriend, Cephas, involving secret, innocent affection. (07:05)
  • “I would lay my head on his lap, but turn my face down and nobody knew what was going on.” (07:13)
• Mick Peterson: Discusses mentorship and sexual awakening with an older neighbor, Mark, emphasizing that guidance and early attraction often intertwined. (07:52–08:34)

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3. The Evolution of Flirting

• The group debates the meaning of flirting—sometimes intentional, sometimes subconscious.
  • “I kind of didn’t think I flirted, but everyone else thought I did.” — Robert (18:46)
  • Mick reflects on an early, accidental flirtation in 8th grade (19:24), and Bill jokes: “Bill’s a tease. Yeah.” (20:36)
• Retail work in men’s stores became a fertile ground for learning “the art” of flirting. (20:43–21:19)

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4. Notable Romantic/Sexual Experiences

• Jessay Martin describes a classic San Francisco cruising encounter:
  • “In the middle of the clearing was this beautiful blond young man who was sunning himself...He stared up at me with his big blue eyes, and...we had a really nice time.” (10:06–11:56)
• Robert Briefs shares being courted by a wealthy realtor who lavished gifts but ultimately couldn’t win his heart—a lesson in self-reliance.
  • “I learned very quickly you have to have your own money to be a person. You just can’t have it slathered on you.” (15:17)

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5. Defining “Boyfriend”—and the ‘Trick’ vs. Lover Debate

• The group laughs about the semantics of relationships:
  • “Boyfriends are something you have between lovers.” — Robert (28:43)
  • “Kind of like an appetizer, an intermezzo.” — Jesse (28:45)
  • “How many dates does it take to be a boyfriend?” — Jesse. “Sometimes one.” — Bill (28:53–28:57)
• The consensus: Terms have always been fluid and dependent on context and chemistry.

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6. Dating Then and Now

• The Old Gays reflect on the seismic change from in-person encounters at bars to the complexities and pitfalls of online dating:
  • "In the 60s and 70s...the main way...to pick up people was bars. The beauty was, you could tell they were real and find out in a nanosecond whether this is going to work." — Robert (32:31–32:57)
  • “Now, I ask a lot more questions...I want to make sure you’re connected to that name...That’s why I like face-timing, because of all the AI and fake stuff.” — Bill (31:27)
• While apps make sex and connection more accessible, they also come with new risks and less tangible chemistry.

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7. Perspectives on Long-Term Relationships

• The hosts are honest about the challenges and fulfillments of partnership:
  • Bill: “I don’t have one.” (35:46)
  • Robert: “My last one ended on such a sour note...I’ve been single now for 30 years.” (35:57)
  • Mick (on his 25-year relationship): “You have to start working [issues] out together—and honestly, I haven’t really looked for one, especially since dealing with a chronic illness. The most important person right now is me.” (36:31–38:06)
  • “If you’re looking for a long-term relationship, get a dog.” — Mick (38:06)
• The group agrees that chosen family and friendship often fill the role once reserved for partners, especially in older age. (39:33)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “You tried very hard not to stare in the locker room.” — Robert (01:21)
• “Cephas was what a man. What a mighty good man he was.” — Bill (07:30)
• “And I’m also a slut. Just remember that.” — Mick (39:00)
• “Never lose the friendship connection because they’re your family. That’s going to be there if you get slapped in the face and beat down.” — Bill (39:49)
• “Silver linings? Have them. Have them as much as possible...Jump in and have as much fun as you can.” — Mick & Robert (40:06–40:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• First Crushes: 02:03–09:57
• Defining Flirting: 18:46–21:36
• Romantic Experiences: 10:06–18:26
• Semantics of Boyfriend/Trick/Lover: 28:10–29:09
• Advice for Young Gay Daters: 29:09–30:16
• Dating Now vs. Then: 31:27–34:47
• Long-Term Relationships & Friendship: 35:46–39:49
• Silver Lining Reflections: 40:06–41:07

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Final Reflections & Silver Linings

• On Crushes & Romance:
  • “Have them as much as possible. Whether it’s great or whether it’s bad, you might have a little bit of fun and you may learn something.” — Mick (40:06)
• On Community & Mentorship:
  • “We can empathize with younger people who are facing issues as they’re growing up, and we can become their mentors.” — Jesse (40:44)
• On Friendship:
  • “Never lose the friendship connection because they’re your family.” — Bill (39:49)

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Tone & Takeaway

The discussion is unfiltered but affectionate—funny, raunchy, sometimes wistful, and always wise. The Old Gays champion living boldly and loving again and again. While the means of finding connection have changed, the need for courage, self-knowledge, and chosen family remains timeless.

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For more from The Old Gays, listen every other week on Silver Linings.

Transcript

[Mick Peterson]

Ruby,

[Bill Lyons]

see, those are tricks. Those aren't boyfriends.

[Robert Briefs]

Yes, young people go to bars these days, but they go to bars to socialize. And then they go home and they get on the Internet to pick somebody up.

[Mick Peterson]

I just look at their crotch, and they look at mine.

[Bill Lyons]

From just beyond the lights of Los Angeles and steamy Palm Springs, California.

[Jesse Martin]

It's Mick, Robert, Bill.

[Bill Lyons]

Just say, and this is Silver linings

[Mick Peterson]

with the old days.

[Robert Briefs]

Well, hello again, lovers.

[Mick Peterson]

Bill.

[Jesse Martin]

Are you feeling frisky?

[Bill Lyons]

That can only mean one thing, and I'm already blushing.

[Robert Briefs]

Today's episode is about first crushes. Romance, heartbreak, and relationships and flirting back

[Bill Lyons]

when it required nerve eye contact and a decent mustache.

[Mick Peterson]

Growing up, gay crushes weren't exactly simple.

[Jesse Martin]

Half the time, you didn't know what you were feeling.

[Bill Lyons]

You just knew. Your stomach flipped when a certain someone walked by.

[Robert Briefs]

And you tried very hard not to stare in the locker room.

[Jesse Martin]

Speak for yourself.

[Robert Briefs]

I am.

[Mick Peterson]

When we got started, there were no

[Robert Briefs]

apps, no swiping lip, no profile pictures,

[Bill Lyons]

just vibes and energy irl.

[Mick Peterson]

So today we're going back to secret

[Jesse Martin]

crushes, important relationships, and the first time we dared to say the word boyfriend out loud.

[Bill Lyons]

So turn on your gaydar.

[Mick Peterson]

Silver Linings begins now.

[Bill Lyons]

To kick things off, who here remembers their very first crush?

[Robert Briefs]

Well, my first crush was a guy by name of Roger. And I was working in a men's store when I was in high school. I worked 20 hours a week, and Roger started coming into the store quite often. And I walked to work from my house. So he started asking me if I'd like a ride home.

[Mick Peterson]

You took rides from strangers?

[Robert Briefs]

Well, we talked about four or five times. He was my age, and so I didn't see anything wrong with that.

[Jesse Martin]

And

[Robert Briefs]

I didn't really know what to think of him. I thought there was something there, but I didn't know. And one night he'd pulled into the driveway. We were just sitting there talking. We were out of sight of the house and that. And when he said goodbye to me, he leaned over and he kissed me on the ear.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, and I stick his tongue in your ear.

[Robert Briefs]

No, no tongue.

[Mick Peterson]

Fun is that.

[Bill Lyons]

And

[Robert Briefs]

I was so confused. I mean, I knew I was gay and I was out and I had had had sex with other men, but I was just completely taken back. And we saw each other as much as we could. In fact, one weekend we took off and up to San Francisco and just had the greatest time up there. I mean, we were both underage, but in San Francisco in those days, they didn't care how old you were to serve you a drink. And we just had an absolutely marvelous time. So that was my first crush.

[Jesse Martin]

My first crush was when I was in the seventh grade. Annie Campbel Junior High School Jonesboro, Arkansas I remember it very vividly. But this new boy moved to town, Billy Earl Keith. And I just thought he was so dreamy. I would just stare at him whenever he would enter a room. And he was real popular with girls and the cheerleaders and all of that. And somehow I invited him over to the house one weekend for a sleepover. And it was Friday night because Saturday was the busy day at the store, because all the farmers would come into town to do their shopping. And so my mom, dad and two brothers would go and work at the shop. And I was left alone with Billy Earl. And in the morning we woke up and I remember asking him, what's it like kissing the cheerleaders? And he said, here, let me show you. And he planted a big kiss on my lips that I remember to this day. Day. And then we kind of tousled about in the bed for probably about an hour. And so what did you do? Well, keep in mind seventh grade, that's around 12 years old. And you know, things are changing. And being the first and having never seen porn or anything at that time, I didn't have too much instruction.

[Bill Lyons]

Good.

[Jesse Martin]

So it was very exploratory.

[Bill Lyons]

How fun.

[Robert Briefs]

And did you continue to see him after that? I would.

[Jesse Martin]

We would get together periodically after that. Yeah.

[Mick Peterson]

What did you explore?

[Jesse Martin]

Well, we explored each other's crevices.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, come on, Ruth, don't play around. Oh, my goodness. Who are we kidding? Rita?

[Bill Lyons]

That just ruined the whole thing.

[Mick Peterson]

Jesse, what about you? We've had enough of him.

[Bill Lyons]

My first crush was my cousin's boyfriend. His name was Cephas. He was the most handsome jet black man with this perfect body. And I would go lay my head on his lap, but I would turn my face down and nobody knew what was going on. And I can't believe now, looking back at it, I go, dang. I was real small when that happened. So I was out to myself early. We just had to play the games with the rest of the world and date everybody, the women, which was sad. But Cephas was what a man. What a mighty good man he was. So that was it. One time in the crotch and then up.

[Mick Peterson]

That reminds me of a story. Mark was my next door neighbor. He was four years older than I was. So this probably was in the summer that he. Between his junior and senior year in high school and wherever I was, seventh and eighth grade, well, he taught me how to suck cock. And then he also taught me how to differentiate between guys who did what we did and guys who didn't, and that you really had to, you know, kind of suss your way there. And so, in a lot of ways, Mark was not only my first crush as well, but he also was a mentor.

[Bill Lyons]

And.

[Mick Peterson]

And I find now, looking back, that these are the type of people that I have let into my life, because each time I've been in a relationship in which I've really developed a crush on somebody, that it's been a lasting impact. And they've always invited me something about the truth about their selves. And so I'm always interested in learning more. And I guess that's where it started from.

[Bill Lyons]

And so it is.

[Jesse Martin]

I can remember other crushes. John Haftner, he was on the football team and had a real nice, compact, muscular body. And I was taking drawing lessons at the time. And so I managed to get him to come over one day to pose for figure drawing for me. And he took off all his clothes except for his underwear, and I drew him. But sadly, he brought a friend along with him to make sure that nothing happened.

[Bill Lyons]

Smart guy. He couldn't handle you by himself.

[Jesse Martin]

No, I think he did.

[Robert Briefs]

He know.

[Jesse Martin]

Figured it out. They said, this isn't going beyond drawing.

[Robert Briefs]

What's one significant romantic or sexual experience you had in your early years that you will always remember, Mark?

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, did you? People can't see, but the guy, Bob, just licked his lips, and then he said, mark.

[Jesse Martin]

Well, this was soon after I had moved to San Francisco. I moved there in 1980 and lived in one place for a few months. And then me and my roommates moved to another place, which was just a few blocks away from Buena Vista park in San Francisco, which was notorious for gay cruising. And one day I was walking with my dog through a path that cut through the bushes and came into a clearing. And in the middle of the clearing was this beautiful blond young man who was sunning himself and a very skimpy bathing suit. And he stared up at me with his big blue eyes, and we struck a conversation, and he went with me down to the house, and we had a really nice time.

[Mick Peterson]

You left the dog at the park?

[Jesse Martin]

No, the dog came with.

[Mick Peterson]

You are so cruel, Bob.

[Jesse Martin]

But anyway, well, that was a very memorable day.

[Bill Lyons]

And you. And you remember it?

[Jesse Martin]

Oh, yeah. Somehow I remember it

[Robert Briefs]

well, when I was living in Laguna beach when I was 20 years old. My mom, she'd take the family down to the beach every summer for a week. And she asked me to go and find a house for us. And so I went down and into a real estate office and a realtor. His name was John. He helped me. And then he sent me out with one of his workers to find a house. We found it. I came back and he said, you know, stop by for coffee anytime you want. And I didn't take him up on it. I mean, he was 45 and I was 20 years old.

[Bill Lyons]

Perfect.

[Robert Briefs]

And during that summer, when my mom was down there, a friend of mine invited me to a party. And John was there. And John invited me out to dinner the next night, and I said, okay. And we went to the Berkshires in Newport Beach. And we started off with shrimp cocktails, then Chateaubriand, then a Grand Marnier souffle. And John was literally trying to win my heart over by just lavishing, you know, gifts and clothes. I was about to go to Orange Coast College for the semester, so we flew to San Francisco and bought my new school clothes at cable Car Clothes.

[Mick Peterson]

You remember all this stuff, Bill?

[Bill Lyons]

He remembers everything before Jesus came.

[Mick Peterson]

Where was the Berkshires? In Newport.

[Robert Briefs]

It was right across from the Arches.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, sure.

[Robert Briefs]

And then John started to not really pay much attention to business. He was too busy with me. We were having a great time. And eventually we decided that it just wasn't working out. Why? There wasn't really any love on my part or was someone who was just adoring me with things, sort of.

[Mick Peterson]

And what's wrong with that?

[Bill Lyons]

He ran out of money.

[Mick Peterson]

I mean, 45 and 20. You kind of get the feeling that, you know he's going to shower you,

[Bill Lyons]

trying to buy you.

[Robert Briefs]

Yeah, but what you say was really true. He did run out of money.

[Bill Lyons]

And I. Yeah, because you wasn't cheap, were you, Bill?

[Mick Peterson]

It's like the old song. You had a lot of money. 19, 29, you sunk it in the market or you are such a swine why don't you do right like some other men do? Get me some money and I'll see you real soon. Is that what you just little gold digger you at 20?

[Robert Briefs]

I wasn't trying to be a gold digger, but that was just an experience that I had. And one thing it really taught me, because I didn't have any money myself, was all of a sudden I was absolutely broken. And I learned very quickly that you have to have your own money to be a person. You just can't have it slathered on You.

[Bill Lyons]

Okay, I'll go next, if you don't mind.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, dude.

[Bill Lyons]

My very first time experiencing what I'd been looking for, love was when I was at the Parliament House Hotel in Orlando. I'm standing there with my roommate from college, and I hear this yummy voice over me asking me to dance. And I turn around and look up to this handsome man, Samuel Coleman Washington iii. And we danced. And then I went home with him, and he went to work the next day, and I cleaned his house and emptied out all the pot because I didn't know weed was really weed. And. And he comes home and has a heart attack. But we. We dated for five awesome years. Unfortunately, drugs is what separated us because he was vice president of a bank and doing really well, and the drugs just took over. And it was sad because I really loved him, but we had some wonderful times. That I am forever indebted for him in introducing true love to me. What I was expecting from it, I mean, as our relationship grew and he cleared up. But what an amazing man. And it's sad that his life ended so early because we'd probably still be dating if he were living.

[Jesse Martin]

So sad.

[Bill Lyons]

It is. It is. Because he was truly a. He was good to me. Good to me.

[Jesse Martin]

Yeah.

[Mick Peterson]

I do have another one. I think it was my senior year in college. I came out. But before I did, I went to see a psychologist, a gay psychologist up in Minneapolis. And he's a very handsome man. And he kind of cleared up some misconceptions I had about gay people. And then he. Which you're not supposed to do. He invited me out for dinner, and then he took me home and he taught me some more. What things to do. And I have to say, he also had a lover who evidently found out about this date that he was having and came over the next morning.

[Bill Lyons]

I love it.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, it was the first time I was treated to that kind of scene. I was growing up fast. But I have to tell you, this guy was hot sex. And I remember that one. I don't remember his name, but I remember him.

[Robert Briefs]

You went to the psychologist on your own? Your parents didn't send you?

[Mick Peterson]

No, no, my parents didn't say, oh, no. They wouldn't have sent me to a gay psychologist.

[Bill Lyons]

For real.

[Mick Peterson]

This guy brought me out. Well, moving on. What are your earliest memories of flirting?

[Robert Briefs]

I kind of didn't think I flirted, but everyone else thought I did.

[Jesse Martin]

Yeah, sometimes you don't know when you're flirting.

[Robert Briefs]

Exactly, exactly.

[Jesse Martin]

It's kind of an unconscious reaction to Someone you're attracted to and you don't know? No.

[Bill Lyons]

Wow.

[Mick Peterson]

It wouldn't be unconscious. It would be your subconscious.

[Jesse Martin]

I just become overly friendly.

[Bill Lyons]

Okay.

[Mick Peterson]

You just say.

[Bill Lyons]

I just get giddy, giddy, giddy, and I get quiet. Surprisingly. I know it's hard for y' all to believe.

[Mick Peterson]

I guess the first time I actually understood what the word flirting meant was I did it unconsciously. It was in the eighth grade. And I looked around to the room. There was a kid in the other room. His name was Scott, and he was billed kid and really wild one. He was the first one who took his middle finger, blew me a kiss. Shut up. And he did it at that point in the eighth grade. And then he called me a dirty old man. And I just. In eighth grade, I just. Well, first of all, I thought, how does he know that? And to this day, I keep looking for him, but I can never find him.

[Bill Lyons]

He put the finger in the wrong hole.

[Mick Peterson]

Maybe if Scott is listening out there, he knows, you know, look me up, call me. Usually when I think it is, you're not even aware that you're flirting. And somebody calls you out on it.

[Jesse Martin]

Yeah. And that's when it becomes embarrassing.

[Bill Lyons]

I can't imagine you flirting.

[Mick Peterson]

No. Bob is not a flirt.

[Bill Lyons]

I know.

[Mick Peterson]

Bill I could see as a flirt.

[Bill Lyons]

Bill's a tease. Yeah.

[Jesse Martin]

It kind of a refined art.

[Robert Briefs]

Well, I think where I got my flirting was basically working in a men's store. Because you are flirting with your customers.

[Mick Peterson]

Absolutely. Can I interest you in a jockstrap? Didn't you ever say that at the store?

[Bill Lyons]

Sure.

[Mick Peterson]

You haven't picked up your jock strap yet.

[Robert Briefs]

No. But I did wait on two guys, and they were looking for bathing suits. So I looked up and I showed them, you know, a surfer bathing suit. You know, like you do hang 10 on that.

[Bill Lyons]

Yeah.

[Robert Briefs]

And they said to me, well, where do you put your jewels? What they were talking about?

[Mick Peterson]

They weren't family jewels. Yeah. Yeah. That's very telling.

[Bill Lyons]

The shrink. Em.

[Mick Peterson]

60s family.

[Robert Briefs]

That's exactly when it was.

[Mick Peterson]

Yeah. 60s, yeah. Now we refer to it as your junk.

[Robert Briefs]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Lyons]

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[Mick Peterson]

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[Jesse Martin]

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[Robert Briefs]

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[Bill Lyons]

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[Robert Briefs]

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[Jesse Martin]

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[Mick Peterson]

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[Jesse Martin]

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[Robert Briefs]

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[Jesse Martin]

What's the most embarrassing flirt moment that you can remember?

[Mick Peterson]

The only time I've ever had an embarrassing flirt is when I run into the door. You know, when you kind of give a person, oh, I've done it in the supermarket. I've done it like at Gelson's in, in West Hollywood. I would be in a little card. Like we look over there and I just run over a display. I have done that. I have done that.

[Bill Lyons]

Okay.

[Jesse Martin]

And do you get a reaction from the flirty?

[Mick Peterson]

Sometimes. Or sometimes they go, oh, walk away. Can't be seen near him. He's crazy. You know, hot, but he's crazy.

[Robert Briefs]

Now it's time for my current addiction.

[Mick Peterson]

Hello, I'm Mick and my current addiction are vascular 26 inch thighs because they lead up to a vascular 9 inches. That's my current addiction.

[Jesse Martin]

I can't think of anything I'd call an addiction.

[Robert Briefs]

What about smoking weed?

[Jesse Martin]

Yeah, well, smoking pot is a lifelong endeavor.

[Mick Peterson]

I wouldn't say smoking pot is an addiction.

[Jesse Martin]

I would. It's not.

[Mick Peterson]

No, it's a vocation.

[Jesse Martin]

It's a necessity.

[Mick Peterson]

There you have it.

[Bill Lyons]

Okay, before apps, how'd you know someone was gay?

[Robert Briefs]

For me, it was always, you glanced at someone, but it was more than a glance. It was like taking a second look at them. And that's how I discovered if someone was gay.

[Jesse Martin]

It's called gaydar.

[Mick Peterson]

Well, gaydar would be sonar, because eye contact is eye contact. It's visual.

[Jesse Martin]

Yeah, maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but, you know, you just get this sense looking at someone, and if you study them for any length of time, you just pick up on nuances. And I just think I instinctively, collectively know that that person's gay.

[Mick Peterson]

Well, I usually am. Of the opinion. Well, I'm not sure. So it's always eye contact, as Bill says. And, you know, the eyes are the mirrors of the soul, and you get. You get a feeling that somebody is really interested, and then you kind of cozy up to that person, and, you know, and then before you know it, you're kissing. It's instinctual. Part of it is risk, because you don't know, but you have to. In doing so, you have opened yourself up, you know, and, you know, that's part of dating, is that, you know, chances are it's not gonna end well. Even if you've, you know, had 10, 20 dates, most of these things, we've all had them in our gay lives, are not very long.

[Bill Lyons]

And I just look at people, and I don't look away. I don't say anything, but I'll just smile at you while you're going.

[Jesse Martin]

What will break the ice and cause you to say something to the person? Do they have to speak first? They wink at you.

[Bill Lyons]

I wink at them.

[Mick Peterson]

You wink at them.

[Bill Lyons]

But I still don't say anything.

[Jesse Martin]

I've never winked at someone.

[Mick Peterson]

I just look at their crotch and they look at mine.

[Bill Lyons]

Do you remember saying the word boyfriend for the first time? And was it a big deal?

[Jesse Martin]

It would have been college year, minus after.

[Mick Peterson]

No, I never really.

[Bill Lyons]

Back in the day, we didn't do that. No, no, we just prayed and went on to the next prayer.

[Jesse Martin]

We just went about our business.

[Mick Peterson]

I think it was because something had to do with straight girls in high school, and you kind of went, ugh, I don't want a boyfriend.

[Robert Briefs]

Boyfriends are something you have between lovers.

[Jesse Martin]

Kind of like an appetizer, an intermezzo.

[Bill Lyons]

Oh, see, those are tricks. Those aren't boyfriends.

[Jesse Martin]

How many dates does it take to be a boyfriend?

[Bill Lyons]

Sometimes one.

[Mick Peterson]

Let's Hear from Bill. He's the authority on it.

[Robert Briefs]

No, I. I would say three.

[Jesse Martin]

Three dates.

[Robert Briefs]

I'm easy.

[Jesse Martin]

And now a short word from Mick. Mick, what are your tips on dating for a gay man who's just starting out?

[Mick Peterson]

Go with what you like. If you're going to pick somebody up, do it in a safe place. But you have to be really attracted to that person. And if you're just coming out, then you're gonna look for somebody who has a little more experience than you, probably a lot more experience than you, because you're gonna have to learn something, and that's how you start. But you kind of have to look for the right person. Not somebody who's going to, like, abuse you or somebody who's going to take advantage of you. Because there's a lot of that in the gay community, particularly with. With predators. And they're not necessarily older men. They can be much younger. That's the advice I was getting. Plus, also, read the Joy of Gay Sex or start watching as much porn as possible.

[Bill Lyons]

I do.

[Robert Briefs]

Are you dating now? Why or why not? And what does dating look like to you now?

[Jesse Martin]

I am not dating. I feel like right now, at this point in my life, my life is so full. If I date someone, I feel an obligation to spend a certain amount of time with that person. And right now, I don't feel like I have that time to spend.

[Bill Lyons]

You don't. Neither do I. I would say that

[Mick Peterson]

I don't think dating as we used to see it exists anymore for people our age. No.

[Jesse Martin]

Anybody.

[Mick Peterson]

Today. Today's dating scene. If you go on the dating scene, to me, it's. You work on getting together with a guy, and then maybe or maybe not, it'll happen. And so you kind of have a. You have to take a more objective stance. You can't be subjected. You have to say, well, it didn't work out like the last time with

[Bill Lyons]

the dating now, there's so many stories that are made up, and I ask a lot more questions of people now. Main thing is, I say is, I need to see your face. That's where it starts. Because a body could be anybody's body, but I want to make sure you're connected to that name that you're coming from. For me, then that's why I like facetiming, because of all the AI and the fake stuff. And I tell him, I says, I don't have time.

[Jesse Martin]

Yeah, gosh, when you think about it, today is so different than when we were growing up.

[Robert Briefs]

I mean, we went on actual Dates,

[Mick Peterson]

they used to call those dinner dates.

[Robert Briefs]

Yeah. And they were.

[Mick Peterson]

Or you were invited. Somebody said, well, I'm going to take you to friends for dinner. I'd like you to meet them. Or something like that. That's sort of the social seen in Hollywood. And so I can tell you the number of dinners I've gone to.

[Robert Briefs]

I remember in the 60s and the 70s, the main way that I went out to pick up people was bars.

[Jesse Martin]

Yeah.

[Robert Briefs]

That was the mainstay. And the beauty of that, you could. They were right in front of you. You could tell that they were real and they talked to you and you could find out in a nanosecond whether this is going to work or not.

[Jesse Martin]

Yeah.

[Robert Briefs]

But I mean, that was my whole. I mean, I hate to admit that my whole time picking up people was just going to bars, but that's the way it was.

[Bill Lyons]

But it was wonderful. We didn't have all the Internet mess.

[Jesse Martin]

Right.

[Robert Briefs]

Exactly.

[Mick Peterson]

Except that, you know, I'll argue the other side just to point out the fact that, you know, when you're, you're, you're like on one of the apps and you know, you're free to ask how big is your dick? You know, and then they'll usually send you a picture next to a beer can. So, you know, you can relate.

[Robert Briefs]

And I think another thing that's really changed is yes, young people go to bars these days, but they go to bars to socialize and then they go home and they get on the Internet to pick somebody up and make sure

[Bill Lyons]

you look like that pictured. That's all I say.

[Mick Peterson]

Yeah.

[Bill Lyons]

But I love being honest about the age thing because when I was the younger one, I always wanted to see the person because the age didn't bother me. It was just like, do you look your age? I just wanted that honesty of. Is this what you look like today? Because that looks like an old black and white picture that was touched up. Give me the face. And my thing is. Do you like to make out? I'm a make out freak, so gotta have lips. And then

[Mick Peterson]

usually I just kind of snuggle up to the guy.

[Robert Briefs]

I was gonna say cuddle.

[Mick Peterson]

I wasn't very snuggle. I just kind of bring myself up and see if their lips meet mine. And then we get started. See, we go right for kissy face. Yeah. I don't go for embracing and things. That comes later.

[Bill Lyons]

Yeah. It follows in order.

[Mick Peterson]

Yeah. To plant that kiss. Even if it's a French one.

[Robert Briefs]

Even.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, even if it's a French one. That's Even better if it's a French kiss, right away.

[Jesse Martin]

If it's a French one.

[Mick Peterson]

Or they kind of just wet your entire mouth with their tongue. And then they go for your face. Oh, yeah, eat your chin. I'll go for your neck and eyes.

[Robert Briefs]

But then there's the bad ones that their mouths are like, oh, the heart. You go, you expecting this romantic kiss?

[Jesse Martin]

And then you just go, bye, bye, bye bye. And then the tongue comes out and the licking starts.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, well, you know.

[Jesse Martin]

Anyways, what has surprised you or changed your perspective about long term relationships as you've gotten older?

[Bill Lyons]

I don't have one,

[Jesse Martin]

Bill.

[Robert Briefs]

I've learned that they don't work.

[Jesse Martin]

Really? Why haven't you had long term relationships?

[Robert Briefs]

Yes, but my last one ended up on such a sour note that it's just soured me for the entire relationship thing. I've been. I've had two long term relationships. One for five years and one for 16 years. And the way they've ended, I've been single now for 30 years.

[Mick Peterson]

Yeah, I've had, I guess you could say, three extensive relationships. The longest one was in the middle and that was for 25 years. My perspective since that time, it's a lot of work. You gotta know more about the person before you jump in because things don't always appear to what they first seem to be. And you gotta understand that the person opposite from you is coming from who knows where and that they've got their own issues in life and that what happens is their issues become your issues, your issues become his. And you have to start working it out together. And that can take a long time. And honestly, I haven't really looked for one, especially now since I've had to deal in the last 10 years with a chronic illness. The most important person right now is me. I have to take care of me. Because if I don't take care of me, how can I be of any, any enjoyment from another person? So I look at relationships now differently and that it doesn't necessarily have to be a relationship that lasts in years. It can last just a few weeks. It's fine with me. You know, if you're looking for a long term relationship, what I would recommend get a dog.

[Jesse Martin]

Yes.

[Mick Peterson]

Because a dog's love is unconditional.

[Jesse Martin]

Yes.

[Mick Peterson]

And just remember that to them you are the most important thing in their life. That's why they follow you into the bathroom. They want to be with you all the time. They love you and they are so keyed into your emotions that you don't even Realize how intelligent they are and, you know, also understand that you will outlive them. So there is going to be grief. But that's the way it is in all relationships. All relationships at some point end, whether through death or whether when you just say it's time to call it a day.

[Bill Lyons]

Yep, it's true. That's real good, Mick. Yeah, really good. Sober, real.

[Mick Peterson]

Yeah. But you know, I'm also a slut. Just remember that.

[Bill Lyons]

Oh, no, we haven't forgotten that part.

[Jesse Martin]

That's an important part.

[Robert Briefs]

My relationship, my long term was all I really wanted was someone to grow old with and trust. And when that trust broke in that last year that we were together, it just pulled the rug out from underneath me and put relationships on the bottom of my list.

[Jesse Martin]

I think as we get older, we find that our extended families replace part of what we're looking for in a long term relationship.

[Bill Lyons]

Never lose the friendship connection because they're your family. That's going to be there if you get slapped in the face and beat down. So to conclude, what, what would you say is the silver lining about crushes, romance and partnerships in the world today?

[Mick Peterson]

I would say have them. Have them as much as possible. Whether it's great or whether it's bad. You might have a little bit of fun and like I said, you may learn something.

[Robert Briefs]

And I say go for it. Enjoy the crushes, enjoy the relationships, but just know that it might come to an end. But these are the things that really make life great for us. These are the up parts to me for our life. So don't try to avoid them. Jump in and have as much fun as you can.

[Jesse Martin]

I suck at that. Yes. And having been through a lot over the course of our lives, we kind of know what to expect and we can empathize with younger people who are facing issues as they're growing up and we can become their mentors.

[Bill Lyons]

I'm one of the young people. I'm claiming it still.

[Jesse Martin]

Oh, okay.

[Robert Briefs]

Silver Linings is a production of iHeart's Ruby Studios and the the Outspoken Network. We're your hosts, Bill Lyons, Robert Briefs,

[Bill Lyons]

Mick Peterson and Jesse Martin. Our executive producer is Sierra Kaiser, supervising producer Kelly Kyle Story production, Ryan Amador with post production by Eric Zeiler. See you in two weeks.

[Robert Briefs]

My whole outlook towards religion was through their art and music.

[Jesse Martin]

To this day, I believe that bird was an angel.

[Bill Lyons]

The big people up in the pulpit, they're human too.

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