Introducing: Broken Record

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Slow Burn - Introducing: Broken Record (feat. Questlove, Malcolm Gladwell, Rick Rubin)

Date: December 27, 2019
Guests: Questlove (A.K.A. Amir Thompson), Malcolm Gladwell, Rick Rubin
Special: Shared Episode from Pushkin’s “Broken Record” podcast

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Episode Overview

This unique episode of Slow Burn introduces listeners to the “Broken Record” podcast through a compelling conversation with Questlove, cohosted by Malcolm Gladwell and Rick Rubin. The discussion traverses Questlove’s upbringing amid the tumultuous landscape of 1970s-80s Philadelphia, the MOVE bombing, formative family influences, his eclectic musical education, the evolution of his drumming style, and behind-the-scenes anecdotes about collaborations, hip-hop history, and unforgettable moments—including DJing at the Obama White House.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Philadelphia Roots & MOVE Bombing Memories

• Questlove recounts growing up on Osage Avenue, directly impacted by the infamous 1985 MOVE bombing.
  • The event’s deep impression is intertwined with his personal life—a major breakup on the same day compounded the trauma.
  • [01:38-03:06] Notable Moment: “For every other Philadelphian, they remember every detail of that day because that was the...the MOVE bombing. But I got dumped by my first girlfriend in the ninth grade that day...” – Questlove
• Describes Philadelphia’s atmosphere under Mayor Frank Rizzo: a climate of police antagonism, racial tension, and the city’s unique sociopolitical history shaping his world view.
  • [03:55] “He’s like the prototypical modern American fascist.” – Malcolm Gladwell
  • The MOVE organization’s radical reputation, veganism, homeschooling, and clashes with authorities contextualized for contemporary listeners.

2. Shifts in Urban Demographics and Musical Upbringing

• Questlove’s family story reflects broader societal change—white flight, decline of integrated neighborhoods, and the cultural nostalgia cycle of the early 1970s.
  • His parents’ past as doo-wop performers and boutique owners informs a rich musical environment.
  • [10:52-13:33] His household was a meeting ground for vinyl enthusiasts: his father loved lush vocal harmonies, his mother crate-dug for funk and soul, and his sister introduced him to Bowie and Queen.
  • “So all that stuff...the main rule in the household was don’t touch my stereo. So I have to be forced to listen to what they want to hear. So I really had an adult’s vocabulary with music by the time I was 10.” – Questlove [12:37]

3. Musical Influences: Comparing Upbringings

• Rick Rubin shares his obsessive record-store habits and how seeing bands like the MC5 and The Ramones shaped his aesthetic. Questlove confesses only newly appreciating The Ramones—prompted by DJing for kids—which sparks a discussion on brevity and minimalism in songwriting.
  • [17:10] “Can we make an effective song with bare minimum, you know, in, in three minutes, can we be just as effective?” – Questlove

4. Philosophy on Song Length & Production

• Gladwell and Rubin discuss the challenge of brevity in music and writing.
  • Rick Rubin: “Every piece has the length that it wants to be...I never do [tell them to make it shorter], unless it’s boring.” [18:06]
  • Rubin describes his “Beatles formula” for pop conciseness and how early Def Jam tracks like LL Cool J broke the conventionally lengthy hip-hop format—unwittingly pioneering the tightly edited hip-hop single.

5. DJ Perspective and The Producer’s Mindset

• Discussion about how producers (and DJs) become incapable of passively consuming music, always “producing” in their minds.
  • “Pretty much anything I hear, I’m always thinking, oh, I wish it was more like this...It’s hard to turn off the producer brain.” – Rick Rubin [23:08]
  • Rubin’s exception: the perfection of D’Angelo’s “Voodoo” album, wishing he had contributed to it [23:55].
• Questlove recounts meeting and collaborating with D’Angelo, describing a pivotal concert moment where he communicates musically through drumming, cementing their creative bond:
  • “And when he heard that intro, he stood at attention. It was like, yo. And when I saw that, I was like, yeah, I got you, motherfucker.” – Questlove [27:12]
• Both Questlove and Rubin detail the slow, improvisational, and collaborative nature of their creative processes, whether in “Voodoo” or “Licensed to Ill.”

6. Evolution of Drumming Style

• Questlove demonstrates the specific drumming pattern (“drunk drumming”) that connected him and D’Angelo, explaining its purposeful sloppiness and human quality. [33:42-39:03]
  • “The difference is in seeing D’Angelo and knowing what language he spoke, I wanted him to know I spoke that language too...” – Questlove
  • Rick Rubin notes the value of foundational discipline for breaking conventions: “If you didn’t have the training that you had in the precision before, you couldn’t do the Drunk style as well as you do.” [39:06]

7. Tastes, Criticism, and the DJ’s Dilemma

• Questlove reflects on how deep musical knowledge sometimes erodes the pure joy of new discovery, especially as a DJ whose personal taste may clash with crowd-pleasers.
• White House Party Story (Humorous, Insightful):
  • Questlove describes DJing for Obama’s final White House party, feeling pressure to deliver a Künstler’s set that ultimately doesn’t connect with the younger crowd.
  • Obama’s advice is an episode highlight:
    • “He said...‘I served the people. I saw that something was wrong. I figured, how can I fix this...And what you did tonight, you saw that something was a little off, and you served the people...We had the time of our lives. You served the people. So you should be proud of yourself. Now do you feel better? No, I don’t.’” – Questlove [48:05]

8. The Creative Struggles of Greatness

• The discussion closes with Questlove’s honest account of post-White House depression and how the weight of “failure” led him to recalibrate his musical mission toward inspiring the next generation.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On MOVE Bombing & Philadelphia’s climate:
  • “But, you know, back then it was just like…you saw a person with dreadlocks, you just thought…oh, these are heathens or whatever.” – Questlove [04:30]
• On concise songwriting:
  • “The only reason why I'm obsessed with this is because now that I work at the Tonight show, we have to write eight second jingles…some verse about, you know, writing eight second songs is sort of our version of commercials.” – Questlove [17:28]
• Rick Rubin’s pop approach:
  • “Never in my life have I thought that…It has to do with growing up where I grew up and listening to the Beatles. So the first formative music for me was the Beatles and those were short pop songs.” – Rick Rubin [19:05]
• On producing vs. listening:
  • “It’s One of the reasons I really like listening to classical music and jazz…But listening to hip hop or listening to rock music…more often than not, I’m producing in my head.” – Rick Rubin [23:08]
• Voodoo Collaboration:
  • “That was the African communication thing. Like, I had to use my drum to tell him, okay, we speak the same language.” – Questlove [27:12]
• Obama’s wisdom on serving the crowd:
  • “…he said, ‘I served the people. I saw that something was wrong. I figured, how can I fix this? I took a moment, I breathed, collected myself, and I served the people…So you should be proud of yourself. Now do you feel better? No, I don’t.’” – Questlove [48:05]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:15-03:06] — Questlove on the MOVE bombing and growing up in Philadelphia
• [10:52-13:33] — The eclectic musical influence of his family
• [14:36-17:10] — Discovering minimalist effectiveness in music
• [18:06-21:00] — Song length, producer’s role in shaping tracks
• [23:08-24:07] — Producer mindset: listening with a critical ear
• [27:07-30:18] — The power of musical nonverbal communication, story of meeting D’Angelo
• [33:42-39:03] — Questlove demonstrates ‘drunk drumming’ and inventiveness
• [41:00-48:05] — DJing at the White House: aspirations, failures, and Obama’s empathetic perspective

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Episode Flow and Tone

The episode is conversational, introspective, and warmly candid. There’s a sense of reverence for music’s cultural power, humor in recounting failures, and mutual respect among seasoned artists and producers. Listeners get to witness personal stories usually hidden behind the studio walls, with Questlove openly grappling with the challenges and joys of creative life.

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This episode is a deep dive into the minds and histories of three modern music icons, offering much for both devoted fans and curious newcomers.

Transcript

[A]

You can't make the most of your data if it's stuck in different silos. If it's scattered across the cloud on prem and with your apps, then it's hard to access, hard to work with, and increasingly expensive. Now you can see it all and manage it all from one place. Welcome to Data Done Right. You can start managing your data, not your infrastructure. It's unified, simple, secure, and it's only with a pure storage platform. Get [e-mail] hey Slow Burn listeners. We have something special for you this week. It's an episode of Broken Record, a music podcast from Pushkin Industries, co hosted by Malcolm Gladwell and music producer Rick Rubin. In the episode Malcolm and Rick talk at Quest Love, he talks about the music of his childhood and about his memories of the Move Police bombing in Philly. You'll also hear Quest get behind the drums to show the evolution of his playing. And he turns the tables to ask Rick Rubin about his own hip hop history, including working on the debut albums from LL Cool J& the Beastie Boys. Check out this episode and subscribe to Broken Record wherever you get your podcasts. And you can see some amazing studio session photos on Instagram at thebrokenrecordpod.

[B]

I wanna talk a little bit about Philadelphia.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Particularly, you're born in 71.

[A]

71.

[B]

You come of age in a very sort of strange period in the history of Philadelphia, right? Frank Rizzo, Mumia, Jamal, Move. I mean, all kinds of strange. Teddy Pendergrass.

[A]

I mean, it's like I lived on Osage Avenue. Oh, wow. The May 13, 1985. I'll never forget. See, for. For every other Philadelphian, they remember every detail of that day because that was the. The Move bombing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I got dumped by my first girlfriend in the ninth grade that day. So for all other reasons, that was like the worst day ever in my life. So just every detail of that night I remember. Like, I remember Tony Orlando guested on the Cosby Show. That was like the last episode of the season one. I remember the first time I ever heard of Bustle in youn Head Growl. The legend of backwards masking of Led Zeppelin. I never even heard of Led Zeppelin before then. But 2020 did this report on, like, how our children are being possessed by demons. And I just remember seeing that quote and these very weird fonts. Bustle in your head Growl. And then we got a note on the block that if that fire continues in the next two hours, we'll have to vacate our house by that point. When I Got home, the bomb had just went off eight blocks away. And then by the time 2020 was on, around 10 o', clock, it was like maybe six or five or six blocks away.

[B]

So just so people know, move is a. A black nationalist movement.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Kind of communal, based in West Philadelphia.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they had a kind of run in with the city.

[A]

They had a run in with the city in 1977 that, you know, our Philadelphians know what it's like, especially if you were alive at the time, to be under the tutelage of Frank Rizzo. Like all that we see now in this current administration is no surprise to us because Philadelphians lived. I mean, this is a guy that like routinely had a baton on his hip, even at like, you know, black tie dinner affairs and whatnot.

[B]

So he's like the prototypical modern American fascist.

[A]

Yes. Like he. I grew up with that image. So, you know, we were always aware of that particular political figure. And thus, I mean, you know, I don't know that. I don't know if that makes us more woke than others or whatever, but growing under Mayor Rizzo just prompts that out of you. Anyway, so new Move, the organization, I believe that it started over like a noise ordinance and then it concluded with, you know, all of them coming out of the house naked, I guess to humiliate them or whatnot. So like really the Spark started in 1977 and then cut to eight years later on Osage Avenue, the block I grew up on. You know, oftentimes people just saw them as radical. Like, it's weird now. Like you see people with dreadlocks, you see them, you know, like you think like, oh, okay, that person has knowledge or they're, you know. But you know, back then it was just like, you know, it was radical. Like you saw a person with dreadlocks, you just thought like, especially if you like raised Southern Baptist, like Christian, you just thought like, oh, these are heathens or whatever. And I know that they believed in. They were like the first vegans I ever knew that they were self educated and that sort of thing. Like their kids. Wait, you're. You self teach your kids at home and that sort of thing. So it was just like such a radical. Like we just always looked at the man different as different. And then I just remember like from May 12, from. From May 11 on through May 13, like it was just nothing but a city under siege which.

[B]

Firebombed.

[A]

Not Rizzo Wilson. Good was our. Yeah, he. I guess there. I don't know what the thing is. You have to understand that homes are connected, row homes are connected similar to that of like some spots I've seen in Brooklyn what are connected together, so we're not separate. So if you bomb one house, you're basically going to affect the entire block. And I, I think their logic was like, we'll just put this little explosion on top, explosive device on top of their roof and then scare them out of the house, which they didn't. They like, well, kill us. So I think of the 13 people that were in the house, 11 died and only two survived. Ramona Africa and Bertie Africa. I think Birdie just passed away. So I think of, of that initial.

[B]

I didn't realize this is literally so the, the cops firebomb the houses where Move was living. The fire spreads and you guys are.

[A]

Literally a couple blocks away, the fire spreads. And yeah, like it started on 58th Avenue. I lived on 50, 52nd was like the epicenter of West Philadelphia. And I mean, at the time I didn't feel, even though there, there were gunshots and everything, like, even like, like our lead anchor, you know, like when news, news people like send their people out in danger, like if there's like bad weather or something, like, you know, they're blowing in the wind and a tornado or that sort of thing, like they're sending out like Jack Jones, like he's hiding behind like a, a Cadillac and you hear in the background and it's like Beirut. And he's given like, okay. This is Jack Jones reporting live from Lorchwood Avenue. So it was that type of action we did. We didn't take it, we didn't take it seriously until maybe around 8pm that we realized, like, oh, the entire block burnt down. And then the entire next block burnt down. And then the entire next block burnt down. Three city blocks just burnt down. So they finally contained the fire. But, you know, by 3 o' clock in the morning, it would have reached my neighborhood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which would have been. Had a different outcome.

[B]

I only bring this up because we, you know, people always talk about how, how much the racial antagonisms in places like LA fueled the rise of gangster rap and that kind of stuff. The racial situation in Philadelphia made LA look like a picnic.

[A]

It did. But, you know, the, the one thing that we really didn't have that LA had was, I mean, we really, we squelched our gang culture. Like that was, that was really over by the time I was born. I mean, gangs were a thing, of course, in the 50s and 60s, but by the time I was Born. You know, my parents explained to me that West Philadelphia at one point was an integrated kind of neighborhood, middle class neighborhood. They once had like a fashion boutique. My dad, of course, by the mid-60s, he kind of retired from his doo wop days. My mom sort of retired from her print model days and. And they had like a fashion boutique. But, you know, they would go to New York at the, you know, they were like a well to do high fashion boutique spot. But once in 68, after the assassination of Martin Luther King, and riots ensued throughout, like a lot of inner cities. My dad basically said, like, white flight started around like 1969, well, mid 1968, like, suddenly all the store owners who were white just fled to the suburbs and kind of, you know, left it as is, you know, dilapidated buildings, neglected buildings and that sort of thing. And then they decided to close their boutique down. And by 70, 71, the nostalgia era had come full circle. And Dick Clark is, you know, he's throwing these shows at Madison Square Garden and the Philadelphia Spectrum and that sort of thing. And so I, by the time I was born, the oldies doo wop nostalgia loop had just started. So I, I grew up thinking like, Frankie Lyman. The teenagers were like, brand new, like, that type of thing. So backstage, you know, I think there's a photo of Jackie Wilson holding me. So I grew up backstage with, you know, just all the oldies, Doo wop legends.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So in your household growing up, you're. So your dad is, Is a. Has an extraordinary record collection.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So what are you, what are you listening to as a, as a, as a kid?

[A]

All right, so I grew up with three very distinct record collectors. My dad was into what I would sort of jokingly say is the yacht rock of his day. He was into Mathis Streisand, vocal groups. Like, he had Pet Sounds. So, you know, seeing Pet Sounds in my house as a kid, I was just like Beach Boys, whatever. But once I got older and realized, oh, their harmony game is bar none, then anybody like, flaunting harmony to the next level, like, my dad was on it, or vocals to the next level because he was sort of like a Nat King Cole type. My mom was more funky and hip. She would buy records like a, like a crate digger or a record collector. And in my day, does like, you look at the COVID Oh, this is funky. It's got to be something like. That's how she collected records.

[B]

Famous Ohio players.

[A]

Oh, so funny you say that because I get a copy of honey when I'm 6 years old and on the corner. It's like, this is January 20, 1976. Happy fifth birthday, Amir. We love you very much, Mommy and Daddy. And I'm like, I still have that album coming. I'm like, yo, like, you guys realize what you gave me?

[B]

Like, you are not on the way. It is a very, very beautiful, very, very naked woman, Right?

[A]

But they were just like. We saw it as high art. And that's the thing. Even I didn't see it as salacious. Like, oh, my God, who's this one? Like, I'm. You know. I just saw a theme of. Okay, Every Ohio player's album cover looks like Black Playboy. My sister blending in with her middle school friends and eventually her high school friends. You kind of sort of have to adapt to their taste. So she's bringing home Bohemian Rhapsody. She's bringing home Bowie. She's bringing home Fog Hat. Like, so all that stuff. And the main rule in the household was don't touch my stereo. So I'm not allowed to choose what I want to hear. So I have to be forced to listen to what they want to hear. So I really had an adult's vocabulary with music by the time I was 10.

[B]

Rick, how similar is this to your musical childhood?

[C]

I was just an obsessive music fan. I would hang out in record stores all day and phew, I remember that.

[A]

That used to be a thing.

[C]

I can remember the first time I was in a record store and I saw. Now this is sort of. It's late for this because the record came out much earlier. But I remember finding the MC5 and first seeing that first album cover and then listening to it and thinking, well, this is during punk rock times. Like, wow, this is. It's kind of like punk rock, but it's old, but it has that energy. It has, like, a frantic energy. And that really excited me. And then I can remember, okay, is there anyone else like the MC5? It's like. Well, it's not exactly like them, but then it leads you to Iggy and the Stooges. And I can just remember these moments of revelation of hearing a new. I can remember the first time I heard the Ramones and just, like, didn't have any point of reference for it.

[A]

I have a slight confession to make.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I hate to say this. I finally listened to the entire Ramones album from start to finish, eight days ago. And I'm so mad that it took me so long to do it.

[B]

What led you to do it?

[A]

Okay, this is the lamest thing ever. I'm kind of at A, at a creative kind of fork in the road right now as far as DJing is concerned. Because a lot of the eclectic music I played, you know, appeals to a specific audience and I'm trying to figure out more creative ways to bring them out. Because of course, like, you know, the people that like the music that I like are older than they have kids. They're not coming out at 2, 3 in the morning. So I'll say in the last year or so I've been doing Saturday afternoon DJing and Sunday afternoon DJing so that it's family friendly, parents can come and, you know, relive their club days and the kids can, you know, have what, you know, it's, it's, it's my, it's my version of re reinventing hip hop. Because hip hop's supposed to be a community based afternoon sort of thing, that sort of thing. And I did an ice skating rink of which I didn't have. I knew it was going to be a lot of kids there and I was like, all right, well let me make sure that I'm playing kid friendly stuff and whatnot. And I just happened to just look on the Internet. I was like, all right, adult music that kids seem to like as well. And of course, briskly, I can't pronounce it was listed. I was like, yeah, because they always sing that at sports, at sports events. And I didn't have it, so I downloaded it and I saw that all the songs are under 2 minutes and 30 seconds. 2 minutes and 30 seconds. And as a songwriter, as I spoke to you before, like not focusing on singles, I'm now obsessed with people that have had successful singles under three minutes. Because it's one thing to, you know, do these well thought out, you know, introspective 11 minute free jazz stuff and oh, the Roots are such artists. But it's like, can we do, you know, Judy's a punk. Can we make an effective song with bare minimum, you know, in, in three minutes, can we be just as effective? So now I'm trying to study minimum minimalist effectiveness.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And so yeah, it's like as a.

[B]

Writer, it's why I'm obsessed with commercials. Always been obsessed with commercials because they tell a story in 30 seconds, you know, and if you are a writer and you know how hard it is to tell a story, you're. You put the person who writes the brilliant commercial at the top of the list.

[A]

The only reason why I'm obsessed with this is because now that I work at the Tonight show, we have to write eight second jingles of which you have to have narrative of what the title is. Some verse about, you know, writing eight second songs is sort of our version of commercials.

[B]

So how often. This is a question for both of you as producers. How often do you say to the artist you're working with, make it shorter?

[C]

I never do. Unless it's boring. It's like it's really. Every piece has the length that it wants to be.

[A]

I have a question for you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so in fight for your right to party. Yeah, I'll say. Last four years I heard the original demo version with extra verses in it and yada yada yada. So what? And you know, I'm asking this mainly because I just read the Beastie Boy book. So in your head, how did you have that much discipline to know what to reduce? Like you're famous for reducing stuff, taking elements away so that it doesn't.

[C]

Honestly, in that case, I don't remember it ever being longer than that.

[A]

Well, there's like an extra verse in there that was taken away, so I wonder.

[C]

I'd love to hear it because I have no recollection of it ever being longer.

[A]

I'll send it to you.

[C]

In those days, it would be unusual for us to shorten anything really.

[A]

So even then you weren't thinking like, okay, three minutes and 30 seconds in.

[C]

Never in my life have I thought that.

[A]

So you don't have Clive Davis years and.

[C]

Not in the least.

[A]

But you're so bullseye with.

[C]

Has to do with growing up where I grew up and listening to the Beatles. So the first formative music for me was the Beatles and those were short pop songs. So I had that formula of goodness in me from the time I was a little kid. That was just all I knew that was good. And when I would hear something that felt like it got boring to me, it was too long. But I like 10 minute jams too.

[A]

Well, I mean, one of my, one.

[C]

Of my favorite groups is Trouble Funk. And if you listen to their music, it just goes forever.

[A]

Right? Well, he, he's being seriously modest right now. But like he literally the most revolutionary thing that he brought to the world of hip hop was he literally invented the three minute song. Like before him even a song as sticky and friendly as the Message by Grandmaster Flash, and that was still eight minutes Planet Rock, because you're thinking of the club and keeping the groove lasting a long time, that sort of thing, you know, LL, like when we got LL's record, yo, these songs are four minutes long. Like we never even fathomed that you could have an effective hip hop record or song to be 3 minutes and 50 seconds. Like just seeing those times on the Def Jam thing, I was just like, this is weird. Like what's going on here? But to you that was just like, did anyone else like resist that at all?

[C]

It was just based on growing up with the Beatles. That was it. It was not at all premeditated in any way. It was natural to me. And when I would get, you know, I collected 12 inch, 12 inch vinyl at that time because every hip hop record came out 12 inch. Pretty much that was the main format of the day, right. So I would get these, you know, Jimmy Spicer records that were nine minutes long and it would be. Or 12 minutes long and. And it always seemed like they were made. They weren't made to listen to, they were made to dance to.

[A]

Right?

[C]

They weren't, you know, they weren't. It wasn't. They weren't long in service to the song.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And I've always wanted to work in service to the song, whatever that is. And sometimes it's the whole side of an album, sometimes it's three minutes.

[A]

No, I'll admit that, you know, I didn't know what a pop hook was or none of that stuff until it wasn't until I started DJing. Like, if you look throughout history, every great producer has done a lot of hours DJing somewhere. Rick's done it. Jimmy Jam, Dr. Dre, like his situation. The reason why he's so good is because if you played the wrong song, the club might get shot up. So imagine DJing under those tents conditions. So it's. It's almost like you have to have a winner out the gate.

[B]

The hip hop version of that famous statement, the prospect of a hanging in the morning concentrates the mind wonderfully. In this case, it's the prospect of shooting in the club. Yes, concentrates the DJing wonderfully. Yeah, we can you. This is. Leads you to anything that I've always been obsessed with and that is that when you get immersed as the two of you are in music, what happens when you listen to music that's not your own? Can you turn the critic off and appreciate it with your. With a kind of. Without passing judgment or are you actually producing the song in your head as you listen?

[C]

Pretty much anything I hear I'm always thinking, oh, I wish it was more like this or like, like I just imagine it sounding different. And it's hard to turn off the producer brain. It's One of the reasons I really like listening to classical music and jazz, because I don't have that same feeling listening to that music. But listening to hip hop or listening to rock music, or more often than not, I'm producing in my head. There's one example which would be fun to talk about. Cause you were involved is the d' Angelo Voodoo album to me is absolutely perfect. It's the first time I can remember listening through to an album, wishing I had something to do with it. Cause it was so good. It was just like, oh my God, this is everything I want an album to be. And it was unlike anything I'd ever heard before.

[A]

Such a scary time period, man, because Virgin wasn't, wasn't seeing it that way. Oh man, there, you know, there was a lot of, okay, when will you guys actually start the real record now and stop messing around. And we're looking at each other like, this is the record, you know.

[B]

Tell us how you got involved with D' Angelo in that album.

[A]

I met D' Angelo and Erykah Badu coincidentally on April Fool's 1996. I'm on tour with the Fugees and the Goody Mob. It is the Soul Train Awards weekend, one year before the Biggie tragedy. And you know, the Fugees were just beginning their, their, their Crescent to the Stars with the Score album. So there was a lot of playful sort of tension between the two groups. And you know, by this point, you know, the Roots become like such a well oiled machine live. And like, okay, we gotta kick their ass tonight. We're in la, we gotta do it. And I remember getting on my drum set and seeing. I didn't know who Erica was. I just assume at the time that was his girlfriend, you know, she had the tall head wrap on. But I knew d' Angelo Silhouette because he was like, front. I could see his silhouette front and center behind the lights. And I remembered that I dismissively talked myself out of playing on Brown Sugar, his previous album. Because at the time I was just like, soul singers in the 90s, whatever. Like, I'm not doing this, you know, R and B guys. Like nothing about soul singing had moved me from any 90s offering. The same way that it did when Otis Redding, Stevie Wonder, you know, Lou Rawls, like soul music. So, you know, they were like, yeah, he wants you to drum on his record. And I looked at him like, I'll pass. And then I got Brown Sugar and was like, oh my God, this guy could be the one. And so I've been trying to figure out how to get back in his good graces so I can be there for round two. Now, the thing is, is that because of this rivalry thing we have with the Fugees, like, the show was a certain way, but when I saw d', Angelo, I decided to call an audible and basically have. Have a conversation with just him. Which meant that I was now about to throw my entire band off. Because what I would normally do for a particular intro of a song, I'm now saying, all right, I'm gonna do this very obscure Prince drum roll and see if he gets it. So I'm doing the Prince drum roll instead. And my band's looking at me like, what the fuck are you doing?

[B]

Just try to impress d', Angelo, right?

[A]

But they didn't get that, you know? And I'm just calling this song, like.

[C]

Go Along With It.

[A]

Go Along With It. So they're. They're looking at me like, you're thwarting and throwing off the entire show. But the only person that mattered to me in the room that night was. And when he heard that intro, he stood at attention. It was like, yo. And when I seen that, I was like, yeah, I got you, motherfucker. And then. And then, like, that whole show was the first time that the drumming I'm known for now started to come to life. And again, throwing my band off, like, why are you playing like a. Like a drunk 3 year old? Like, why are you playing off rhythm? Why are you like, come on. You know? And the thing was, I had to put the bait on the hook and throw it out there. And once he grabbed it, I was like, nope, I'm not letting go. Like, this is how I'm gonna drum from now on. So he got it. They were mad as hell at me that night, but he got it. And, you know, I felt good because then the Fuji, all the Fugees records skipped. So they had a bad performance that night. So we won. But, yeah, after that, then he knew, like, that was the. That was the African communication thing. Like, I had to use my drum to tell him, okay, we speak the same language. And he came to Philly to do a song on our album. It was the last day of recording and we had, like seven hours left, so we just continued to play. And then it was like, well, come by next week. Come by next week. And then the fourth time, I'm at Electric Lady Studios for what will be a five year tutorial in education and probably one of the greatest creative periods of my. That was. That was my Becoming an adult, you know, just every day. Like, I was YouTube because I was still doing these mammoth Grateful Dead, like, tours with the Roots, spending all my off days at Electric lady with him, but mostly traveling the world collecting any and every videotape performance of some vintage, you know, al Green in 1974 and, you know, Graham Central Station in 1976, and bringing it back to Electric lady so we could study it. And then after we watch it, like two or three times, then we come and then play what we just watched. And after four hours of messing around, suddenly, you know, he'll change the key and, hey, what you doing? No, no, keep on playing the rhythm. And then suddenly the morphing of a new song starts. And that's pretty much why Voodoo took five years to make those 12 songs. Because that was the slow, arduous process of digging and digging and morphing and digging and morphing and then coming up with, you know, can you.

[C]

We had a similar. We had a similar experience with. With the first Beastie Boys album, which took, I think, three years to make. And it was the same reason. It was like, really? It wasn't. Yeah, it was just like looking for these inspirational jumping off points and then messing with those in the studio to make it an interesting track. And then we would write to it. But that would happen. It happened over a long period of time. I can remember. I might have told you this story before, Malcolm, but I can remember being at a different session and Mike D calling me really upset. It's like, how come our album's not done yet? It's like, you can't rush it. It's like you can't. It's not. It's not right. It comes when it comes, you know, it's not a. It's not automatic. So it reminds me of that experience of that sort.

[A]

What's the jam session process like for that time period? Like, who's the person that's like, hey, let's program something, you know, this particular way and backwards, mask it and. Or even like the starts and stops in, like, the new style or just. That's another life changing album for me, by the way, like, License to Ill. Like, Life changing World stopping. Life changing, but good.

[C]

So. But it was done with the same sort of precision you're talking about. And then it would have been. More often than not, it would have just been me and an engineer in the room working on the music for a long time until I had something that was exciting enough to even feel comfortable playing for the band. You Know, like, it had to. The music really had to be right first. And so many of the drops and things didn't happen till late. It was all rooted in the vocals. So we would. First there would be the basic track, which would be either samples or it was really loops then because there was no sampler yet. So it was either loops or direct DJing in parts. Program drums. I would play rudimentary, like, guitar stuff if it needed to be there. And we would get the tracks to that point, then we would usually write the words, which would happen over a while. And we were always collecting lyrics. Like, me and Adam Horowitz would go out to Danceteria pretty much every night and just goof around and try to make each other laugh. And if the other person laughed, it was usually a usable line. And just always like little tiny pieces of paper with scribbled notes on them.

[A]

Almost like a comedian. That's crazy.

[C]

Yeah, it very much was like that. And it was. I would say that we were as inspired by Monty Python and Steve Martin as we were by anybody doing music. It really was about inside jokes and making each other laugh.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Rick, do we have any? I'm conscious of the fact that we've lost your time. I do have one request, though.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that is you mentioned way back when that you played d' Angelo that little bit that lured him in. Can you play that? We have a drum set over there. Could you. Can you reproduce that?

[A]

Sure. I'll give you an example.

[B]

Hang on.

[A]

Is there a drum key, though? Yes, there is. Okay, so. So. So the thing is, is that. By that point in 1996, I was very guarded of my kind of strict discipline quantized drumming because I didn't want anyone to think of the Roots as lesser than a hip hop group. So for me, I had spent five years to that point being the most disciplined, like, lifeless drummer. So, like, my version of drumming was just, you know, to play the most disciplined. Like, no dynamics. No, none of those things. Wait, let me put that phone. So I'm sorry. And so the difference is in seeing d' Angelo and knowing what language he spoke, I wanted him to know I spoke that language too. So previously, like, you know, I was speaking the language of hip hop, which was just like. But once you see d' Angelo in the audience, suddenly this. This slightly becomes like somewhere between 4, 4 meter and 12, 8 meter. And if I really want to. If I really want to exaggerate it, Like, you. You fluctuate. Like, it's kind of like my version of thelonious Monks talking about, like, the. The sort of atonal, like the notes in between the notes, and it's like.

[C]

A broken drum machine.

[A]

Yes. And the. The worst I played, the more excited he got. And that's the thing, like, to do this, like, you have to put your ego aside because every drummer was about Evel Knievel, like, gospel chops. That's the thing with drummers. If you go to gospelchops.com you'll see some of the most amazing, you know, drum players that would put Neil Pert to shame, like, that sort of thing. But playing with him, there was a song on his first album called Dreaming Eyes of Mine, in which, you know, at the time, I asked his producer, Bob Power, I was like, okay, did you guys, like, break the drum machine or something? Because the way that it was programmed, this is how that song sounded, which made me knew that he spoke that drunk language. His drumming was like. His programming was like. Which, you know, once Bob convinced me, like, no, we did that on purpose. Then I was like, okay, I don't. I think you're just saying that. But then once I heard Wu Tang Clan and which the Rizza sort of does that with his production. But I kind of feel like it's the Accidental Tourist, like, oh, dog, that's hip hop. Like, I just. I programmed it offbeat, like, you know, that sort of thing. Once. Once we got to that place in that level, then. Then I just, okay, this. This is the new language. I'm gonna throw away everything that my mom and dad put me in school for, and I'm just gonna drum like a five year old from now on. But really, it's just being human. That's. That's all I consider it.

[B]

You know, we. You. When you were playing that way for d', Angelo, so you're. He's in the audience and you're watching him while you're doing this.

[A]

He stood up and pointed. He stood up, pointed, and I just saw, like, either he pointed or gave me like the, The. The. The black power fist sign. Like, yo. And he said, like, he. The sentence was, yo, that's my drummer or that's my brother. Like, I just. I had to let him know. I get you. I underestimated you. I'm sorry. I'm trying to be down. I speak the same language too. And he. He got it. He got it in that moment.

[B]

Yeah. I love that so much.

[C]

I think if you. If you didn't have the training that you had in the precision before, you couldn't do the Drunk style as. As well as you do.

[A]

You're right. I don't. I don't recommend people. And, you know, that's kind of crazy you say that because even now, young Drummers are on YouTube going to the top of Mount Fuji to learn the fanciest thing. And I tell them all the time, like, you got to start. You got to go to first grade first. Like, you don't start off getting your doctorate. And my dad was a notorious. Like, he loved that whole James Brown, I'm finding you five, ten dollars for that role. You know, my dad's doing oldie stuff, so basically all of his stuff is all the same. Like, and in my head, you know, I'm doing this at 12. At 12, and I'm having a conversation with myself, like, okay, if I do a clean fill, maybe he won't find me 20 bucks. So then I, oh, I got away with that. And then when the bridge comes, then I'm like, okay, I'm going to do something. Like. And already 10, 20 up, I'm back here. Like, he will not. My father did not hesitate ever to just. He wouldn't even look at me. You just look at his right hand and if he flashed a 5, 5, 10, 15, 20, like, so, you know, that's, that's where I really got my. My disciplined chops from, like, not wanting to have my salary at the end of the night.

[C]

Thank God for your dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

How has your taste in music changed from the time you were a little kid?

[A]

Lately, I've been exploring the stuff I shouldn't have, not shouldn't have been listening to. But it's like, okay, I'm a member of Columbia House Record Club. Like, why did I get Debbie Gibson's out of the Blue album? You know why I'm thinking of. You know what I mean, the critic in me now. Like, once I discovered Rolling Stone and suddenly I became like, a rock snob critic. And I know, like, buying those record guides and whatnot, but I'm like, yeah, like, Christine 16 was the first kiss 45 ever brought. And, you know, I love Kiss meets the Phantom. And then only reading on later that, like, oh, that that was their jump the shark moment or that sort of thing. And, And I mean, I know all opinions are subjective critically about acts and whatnot, but as far as, like, how I listen to it, It's weird now. Like, I wish, I wish I could. I mean, the way that I'm describing getting an orgasm from music, that excitement, it doesn't happen so much now because you know, I believe that part of me knows better. So it's like, okay, you know that songs that you consider good, songs that you consider bad, but then I'm like, but then there are songs that you know are effective and not effective and especially as a dj, that world always conflicts with me. So songs that I wouldn't normally listen to in my spare time, I know are crucial and work for me well at DJ gigs. But now I'm interested in telling stories when I dj. So I plan these long, I plan these meticulous, scientifically proven, like it's like A Beautiful Mind. Like I'm doing these math graphics of the songs in this key. And okay, this is an E flat and then The Beatles modulate 2D. And then I could put Human League after that. So that's how I craft my DJ gigs. Now to give you an example, I did the gig of my life. A six hour DJ gig in Central park for the Hamilton, afterparty for the tonys. So from 11pm till 5 in the morning, I mean these people, I, I was God. Every song was perfectly segued, was in the right key, it told a story. People would write me letters. Oh my God, it was the most life changing display of music. You went from Kermit the Frog to da da da. And I did everything, anything with music from Benny Goodman on down to Drake from 1930. I covered it and they ate it up like nerds. I did the same shit at the White House two days later for Obama's last night in the White House.

[B]

Oh, that's that famous party fail.

[A]

Oh yeah, it was, it was. Okay. So two hours into it, he taps me on the shoulder and say, you know, you're doing good job. I, I love the, I love the Donna Summer and the old school hip hop and the jazz and. But look at them, they want to have fun too. And he's pointing to his kids, they're having a sit in, they're having a sit in and they're just like looking at me like, nah, none of this shit works. And ah, man. So then I became a DJ I hated. I'm like googling. All right, let me go to Spotify, see what kids are listening to. Like that sort of thing. So I became that guy, the guy I hate the most. And then suddenly that, that night became Animal House. Like it was the most debaucherous, the most. I mean I could describe the Smells Like Teen Spirit video to give you an example, but it was like that crazy. They consider it the best night they ever had in their lives. And I'm having some.

[B]

I heard some story, possibly apocryphal, that involves Usher getting into a. Getting into it on the dance floor.

[C]

With who?

[A]

Okay. With Barack Obama. Like, they're, They're, They're. They're dancing, like. And he's coming up to me, like, play. Do you have French Montana? And I was like, sir, I don't have the clean versions of that. He's looking like, we're all adults here. Go, go play it. I was like, sir, I'm not going to play Pop that. What you working with. You know, it literally, like, I'm like, you listen to Grant. Like, all these presidents are, like, looking at me in the hall of Presidents, like, shaking their head like, whatever. I will say that.

[B]

Jim Carter looking down.

[A]

Everyone was doing that at. At one point, like, I was really depressed because I had planned to make my grand statement. Like, they were going to declare a national holiday after me. Because I'm the seg. I'm. I'm the feng shui dj, Matt. Like, I knew I was going to get a MacArthur genius grant for this shit. And at one point, you know, again, I'm like, looking on the Internet songs, kids, like, and Springsteen walks in, and I'm telling you, it's you. You can't imagine a wilder. Like, think of. Think of the Eagles backstage stories. Think of Freddie Mercury's Queen Jazz release album, Party Tales. Think of Animal House. Think of. Think of the. Like, think of everything. And that's how wild that party was. And Springsteen walks in, and instantly Patty's like, ah, we're gonna party. He pulls him. Mm. Mm. And he looks at me, he gives me that look and shakes his head a little bit like, I know you know better than this. And I just. I felt ashamed. Like, yeah, I'm sorry. I sold out.

[B]

Like, wait, why does the. Why does the world's greatest greatest set list not work at the White House? What went wrong?

[A]

So here were his words. So, you know, I. I was on the verge of tears because I built this up to be like, this is going to be my grand statement. I've been waiting for eight years to have this moment. And whenever you build something up in your head and it doesn't go out in your favor, you're. You're going to have a nervous. You're going to have a panic attack. And I knew I was going to have a panic attack, so I was, like, trying to, like, exit stage left and get out of there. No, no, come back. And, you know, they're all, like, play more and I gotta go and. Okay, thanks, thanks, thanks. So afterwards, I'm walking. He's like, so you. You have a good time? I was like, no. Did you have a good time? I was like, no. Yeah, it was cool because I then I didn't want to make it about me. Like, this is his last night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

His night to get loose and everything. They're all. Everyone's crazy drunk and all this stuff. Like, this was his night. So I was just like, yeah, it was cool. And he's like, what's wrong? I was like, you don't want to hear it. I'm cool. He said, no, tell me. And he said, all right, let me guess. You. You're like an artist, and you. You. You planned your. Your grand artistic vision of how you thought the night should go and didn't work out, and you're overthinking it, and you're thinking that I sucked. And I was like, well, yeah. Yeah. He said, so he tells me a story. He says, do I remember? He talks about Charleston and the Dylann Roof situation with the massacre. He said he knew that 30 seconds after. 30 seconds after that, the. The shooting happened, that he was going to have to speak at that funeral. So he had crafted. He had instantly knew. It's like, okay, I got to craft the speech of my career. This is going to be my profiles encouraged. You know, that's not what you're going to do. So he says he has the speech of his life, like, ready to go. He's been working on it, perfecting it. And he goes down to Charleston, South Carolina. And he knew three minutes into that speech, it wasn't going to work. And so he's like, going in his head. He's like, I'm not. I'm not reaching the people. And he's, like, looking at his people, trying to warn him in some sort of baseball signal that I'm gonna go rogue and freestyle. And they're getting upset. They're like, oh, you're the worst when you go on your own without us approving the script. And he said, something just told me, Barry start singing Amazing Grace. So then he starts singing Amazing Grace, right? And he's like. And everything turned around. He says, you know what I did? He said, I served the people. I served the people. I saw that something was wrong. I figured, how can I fix this? I took a moment, I breathed, collected myself, and I served the people. He said, and what you did tonight, you saw that something was a little off, and you served the people. He's like, and there's honor in that. You did the right thing. We had the time of our lives. You served the people. So you should be proud of yourself. Now do you feel better? No, I don't.

[B]

You cannot leave you.

[A]

So as, as the way. No, I mean, it really messed me up. After I told my man I stopped a majority of 2016, I rejected like 80 of the gigs. Like, I was, I was depressed. I was just like, if you fail at records, like, what. What good is your life? Like, and then that's when I started my thing. Like, well, I'm stop DJing at nightclubs and just do it for the kids. And hopefully, like, when these parents bring their three year old kids here, they'll see me the same way that I was doing on the block party. And oh, I want to do that. That's what. That was my mission. But no, his wife asked me to curate her book Becoming so and again, they asked me to just put like 30 songs together and I wound up putting 1400. 1400 songs. They're like, amir, we didn't ask for the story of my life, but we'll take it anyway. So, you know, I had to redeem myself.