Slow Burn – S8 Live Announcement & Bonus Conversation
Date: July 15, 2023
Host: Joel Anderson (with guest interviewer Dahlia Lithwick)
Topic: Becoming Justice Thomas: Reflections on Clarence Thomas’s Biography, Identity, Anger, and Influence After the Supreme Court’s Affirmative Action Ruling
Episode Overview
This special episode features:
- A live event announcement for Slow Burn’s Season 8 (Becoming Justice Thomas)
- A rich bonus conversation between host Joel Anderson and legal journalist Dahlia Lithwick (host of Slate’s Amicus), diving deep into the complexities of Clarence Thomas’s life, the contradictions in his public persona, his psychological landscape, and his significance in the current affirmative action debate
- Behind-the-scenes insights about the reporting process, the impact of Thomas’s upbringing, and revealing anecdotes from Anderson’s interviews (including with Thomas’s mother)
The episode is an extended meditation on how formative experiences, race, gender, power, and personal resentments shape Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas—and, by extension, American law and society.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Live Event Announcement & Context (00:37 – 02:28)
- Joel Anderson announces a Slow Burn live event in Washington, D.C., post-Supreme Court ruling ending race-based college admissions (with Clarence Thomas writing a concurrence for the majority).
- The event will feature guests with unique perspectives on Thomas, including his college friend, legal scholars, and senators.
“I’ll be dishing out a few more juicy stories that we couldn’t fit in the series...[and] the next best thing might be this interview I did with Dahlia Lithwick...” — Joel Anderson (01:14)
2. Exploring Clarence Thomas’s Instability of Identity (02:28 – 05:30)
- Lithwick: Captures her fascination with Thomas’s shifting identity—future priest, Black nationalist, Republican, etc.—and how these pivots represent a constant, almost desperate search for “home.”
- Anderson: Affirms Thomas grew up “unmoored... a person without people,” craving belonging, with the GOP eventually offering that.
“He wanted friends... so it makes sense that ... you do the thing that your parents or your guardians want you to do. ...the GOP pipeline today and certainly 40 years ago, it’s very seductive. There’s a lot of money behind it, if you’re the right guy.” — Joel Anderson (04:09)
3. The Paradox of Thomas’s Persona: Laughter and Anger (05:30 – 08:33)
- Lithwick: Notes how Thomas’s “booming laugh” is described as perhaps an affectation or “mask” (per Lillian McEwen, ex-girlfriend/former judge), versus his palpable rage (famously at his confirmation hearings).
- Anderson: Argues Thomas authentically contains both warmth and anger; with friends or admirers, he’s “the warmest, nicest, kindest, funniest person,” but displays real anger to “enemies or critics”—anger rooted in his childhood scars.
“I actually think he’s both... That anger is sincere, and it’s like it’s been honed over the years, and he’s figured out the people that he needs to deploy it against.” — Joel Anderson (07:28)
4. Preference for Harsh Honesty and the Influence of His Grandfather (08:33 – 11:17)
- Lithwick: Cites Thomas’s own words about preferring directness—even racist directness—over "falsity," and wonders how this shapes his alliances.
- Anderson: Connects this to Thomas’s grandfather, who was hard, sometimes cruel (e.g., “wouldn’t even allow him or his brother to wear gloves” making cold deliveries), instilling the lesson that harshness = honesty, care, and even love.
“He thinks that harshness is a form of love or affection. ...my grandfather told me the truth, and that’s what he thinks about Republicans.” — Joel Anderson (10:35)
5. Meeting Clarence Thomas’s Mother — The Human Side (11:17 – 14:49)
- Lithwick & Anderson: Anderson describes how, surprisingly, Thomas’s mother welcomed him into her modest home. He reflects on the warmth and unguardedness of the experience—and notes a possible distance between Thomas and his mother, as well as her fondness for Thomas’s first wife, but not Ginni Thomas.
"[She] was just so warm... There was a point ... she says, Myers, that was my boy. Myers is his younger brother who died... She was very close to him. I don't get the sense she's as close to Clarence. … She talked about how she was closer to his first wife, Kathy Ambush, as opposed to Jenny Thomas." — Joel Anderson (13:07)
6. Affirmative Action: A Psychic Wound & Thomas’s Motivations (14:49 – 20:16)
- Lithwick: Discusses the arc of Thomas benefiting from affirmative action, then leading its evisceration. She frames the series—and Thomas’s story—as the public playing out of a personal psychic wound, which will impact generations of students.
- Anderson: Says Yale Law was a turning point; being told he was an “affirmative action quota” erased his accomplishments, which hurt deeply. He personally relates to the pain Black professionals feel—but observes Thomas drew a different conclusion, seeing affirmative action as demeaning. Thomas believes, paternalistically, that others will benefit from being denied these policies.
“Instead of getting mad at the people that feel that way about him, he’s taken that opportunity to get mad at people who have benefited similarly. ...He just thinks that I was actually special. You all got in because of preferences” — Joel Anderson (19:02)
7. Gender, Pain, and Thomas’s Blind Spot to Black Women’s Struggles (20:22 – 25:33)
- Lithwick: Observes a stark gendered dynamic in the podcast—the joy and admiration of male peers contrasts sharply with Black women’s accounts of pain and exclusion.
- Anderson: Suggests Thomas harbors resentment specifically toward Black women, rooted in childhood feelings toward his mother, whom he saw as weaker than his grandfather. He consistently devalues Black women’s challenges, even with accomplished women around him at the EEOC and elsewhere.
"He fundamentally doesn't have respect for the challenges that women have. ...It's a consistent theme throughout his life..." — Joel Anderson (23:00)
- Lithwick: Recalls Anita Hill's comment that during the confirmation, Thomas “got race; I was left with gender. And that is less.”
"It's actually just really insidious... there's this belief... that she was trying to attack a black man... as a tool of these white liberals to take him down... it's a fundamental dismissal of women's pain." — Joel Anderson (24:25)
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
-
On Thomas’s Search for Belonging:
"If I could knit together the whole narrative... Joel, is just somebody who's looking for a home, and he's so famished for home that he just keeps landing in these situations..."
— Dahlia Lithwick (03:05) -
On Thomas’s Persona:
“He’s unmoored... especially like, as a child, he had this very difficult upbringing... he was desirous of having people that appreciated him, people that wanted to be around him.”
— Joel Anderson (03:53) -
On Thomas’s Contradictions:
“I actually think he’s both [rageful and warm]... He shows that side to a lot of people... But I think the people that he presumes are enemies or critics. That’s where you get all the anger.”
— Joel Anderson (07:28) -
On the Impact of Affirmative Action:
"It totally erases every academic accomplishment he'd ever had before. And that really wounds him."
— Joel Anderson (17:21) -
On Thomas’s Relationship to Black Women:
"He doesn't recognize that pain, that struggle, and it's a consistent theme throughout his life... when he's in charge of all these other women, he's just like, look, you all serve me."
— Joel Anderson (23:17) -
On Anita Hill and Gender vs. Race:
“In that confirmation process, he got race, I was left with gender. And that is less. It is less.”
— Anita Hill, recalled by Dahlia Lithwick (24:12)
Timestamps for Major Segments
- 00:37 – Live event announcement and bonus interview introduction
- 02:28 – Lithwick’s core question about Thomas’s unstable identity
- 03:53 –05:30 – Anderson on Thomas’s search for belonging and GOP seduction
- 05:30–08:33 – Laughter vs. Anger: Thomas’s performed identities and psychological duality
- 08:33–11:17 – Thomas’s preference for directness, Republican relationships, and echoes of family upbringing
- 11:17–14:49 – Meeting Thomas’s mother; insights on family relationships
- 14:49–20:16 – How affirmative action shaped (and wounded) Thomas; Anderson’s parallel personal experience
- 20:22–25:33 – Gendered pain, Thomas’s blind spots, and the ignored voices of Black women
- 25:33 – Lithwick closes with accolades for the season and gratitude to Anderson
Takeaways
- Becoming Justice Thomas is as much a psychological journey as a strictly political biography.
- Thomas’s quest for belonging, his response to discrimination (real and perceived), and his personal wounds—especially related to race and family—fuel his judicial philosophy and public persona.
- The consequences of his worldview, especially on affirmative action, reverberate nationally and historically.
- The complexity of Thomas’s relationships—with his family, with Black women, and with political operatives—demonstrates how personal pain and societal forces entwine in the forging of public figures.
For listeners seeking to understand not just Clarence Thomas, but the troubled tangle of race, merit, gender, and power in American life, this episode offers both deep empathy and bracing critique.