BONUS: "5 Eye Opening Stage Combat The Podcast Moments"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast

BONUS: "5 Eye Opening Stage Combat The Podcast Moments"

Release Date: April 12, 2026
Host: Sean Hayden
Summary by [Your Name]

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Episode Overview

This special bonus episode, hosted by Sean Hayden, revisits five of the most impactful and eye-opening moments from Season 3, each illustrating the often-hidden challenges and injustices faced by entertainment industry workers. With a commitment to advocacy and storytelling, the episode underscores the podcast's mission: to create safer, more equitable workplaces in theater by exposing harmful practices and amplifying calls for systemic change.

Content Warning: Some segments discuss self-harm and sexual assault.

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1. Swordfight in the Rain – Safety Negligence in Outdoor Theater

Segment Start: [01:56]
Guests: Mickey McKee (Actor/Fight Director)

• Story Recap: New York actor Mickey McKee recounts a harrowing experience performing a choreographed swordfight in a downpour, under protest, when other theaters had sensibly canceled their outdoor shows.
• Key Moments:
  • McKee highlighted repeated warnings to the director, only to be given an ultimatum: perform or lose your job.
  • Both McKee and his fight partner suffered head injuries after slipping, resulting in a hospital trip and a concussion.
  • The director accused McKee of deliberately causing the accident to "make a point," deepening the sense of betrayal.

Memorable Quotes:

• Mickey McKee ([03:23]): “Either I do it tonight or I don't have a job. So I did it...we both slammed into each other's foreheads at full speed because we slipped at the same time, and we just went boom.”
• Mickey McKee ([05:28]): “I shouldn't be here. I warned you. I told you this would happen. And we're here.”
• Mickey McKee ([06:08]): “You go to hell. Yeah. It was a. A betrayal.”

Insight: This segment exposes the culture of unsafe practices and retaliatory threats that can endanger actors, emphasizing the ongoing need for workers to advocate for their own safety.

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2. Toxic Management on Broadway – Brett Shuford’s Story

Segment Start: [07:49]
Guest: Brett Shuford (Actor, deceased)

• Story Recap: The late Brett Shuford shares an emotional account from his time in Wicked, where poor onboarding, lack of support, and toxic management left him feeling humiliated and isolated. The episode features a recording of a berating session with a stage manager.
• Key Moments:
  • Shuford was sent onstage for a complex role without proper spacing rehearsals and then publicly shamed for performance mistakes.
  • The environment discouraged defending oneself; colleagues literally left the room when Shuford challenged the stage manager.
  • Shuford’s emotional reaction highlights the psychological toll: “I’m being bullied by the stage manager. And the complicitness that I experienced backstage, where everyone was just sort of like, yeah, that’s how it is here. Welcome.” ([14:06])

Memorable Quotes:

• Stage Manager ([08:51]): “Everest City was a disaster tonight. You know that, right? You bumped into people. That's a disaster in life.”
• Brett Shuford ([12:55]): (on his emotional state after the confrontation) “I was panicked. I was like. I think I slept for an hour that night. I couldn't sleep. I was so distraught, and I was so scared about going on and screwing up in some way.”

Insight: Brett’s experience, preserved posthumously, proved catalytic for the podcast’s evolution, giving others the courage to speak up and shifting the series’ focus to telling more worker stories.

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3. Trauma, Teaching, and Drama Programs – The Call for Change

Segment Start: [17:19]
Guests: Jessica Webb (Boston Conservatory Professor), Frankie (Student/Survivor)

• Story Recap: Frankie’s account of surviving sexual assault is compounded by her BFA program’s failure to provide trauma-informed care. Professor Jessica Webb calls for a fundamental change in how educators approach students' mental health.
• Key Moments:
  • Webb advocates for the assumption that every student brings trauma to the classroom, citing the World Health Organization’s definition of trauma.
  • She criticizes teaching methods that “mine for trauma” rather than foster healthy artistic growth.
  • Advocates for a “scars, not wounds” approach in actor training.

Memorable Quotes:

• Jessica Webb ([17:34]): “If we are not doing that, we are harming. The way that we are teaching is wrong if we are not including the whole student... If you are not thinking about working with a trauma influenced lens, you are actively harming the students in front of you. That’s not teaching.”
• Jessica Webb ([19:49]): “Trauma is what happens when it stops being a conversation... We speak from the scars, not from the open wounds.”

Insight: Webb's straight talk is a rallying cry for theater educators to unlearn outdated habits and normalize trauma-aware instruction—an approach that’s beginning to catch on but still faces resistance.

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4. The Devastation of Malpractice in Investigations – Laura’s Story

Segment Start: [24:31]
Guest: Laura (Former Artistic Director)

• Story Recap: After becoming the subject of an improperly run workplace investigation, Laura attempted to take her own life, left feeling abandoned by a theater community to which she had devoted her career.
• Key Moments:
  • Laura describes waking up in a hospital and her shame at reaching such a low point, aggravated by the sudden loss of her professional identity.
  • The absence of any meaningful support or acknowledgment from her former colleagues deepened her sense of isolation.

Memorable Quotes:

• Laura ([24:52]): “I know it’s hard to go back there. And part of me is ashamed that there’s a lot of shame around having done that over what now feels like so stupid, but at the time felt so huge, you know?”
• Laura ([27:47]): “I felt abandoned, and I felt angry. I was really angry, you know...”

Insight: The conversation highlights the emotional cost of workplace betrayals and the dangers of fusing self-worth too closely to organizational identity—a recurring theme in the podcast.

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5. Embracing “Ordinary” After Broadway – Bobby Stegert’s Epiphany

Segment Start: [29:51]
Guest: Bobby Stegert (Tony nominee, now psychotherapist)

• Story Recap: After starring on Broadway, Stegert had a revelation about the necessity of stepping off the “narcissism treadmill” imposed by the industry. He describes healing as learning to accept—then take joy in—being “ordinary.”
• Key Moments:
  • Draws a direct connection between narcissism in the entertainment world and underlying shame and discusses how leaving Broadway allowed for more genuine self-acceptance and connection.
  • Sean Hayden candidly shares how this epiphany resonated with him, especially the notion that human connection is more fulfilling than public accolades.

Memorable Quotes:

• Bobby Stegert ([30:27]): “The thing about narcissism...is that it’s always based in shame... The system that is the Entertainment industry forces you to be very self involved.”
• Bobby Stegert ([31:40]): “Part of my healing was getting to be ordinary. And it was painful at first to feel ordinary, and then it became a real joy to feel ordinary.”
• Sean Hayden ([32:31]): “To try to be in the pursuit of being a fully realized person that takes in the people around you...is more powerful than any song I could sing on stage.”

Insight: This segment closes with a powerful meditation on post-career healing, self-worth, and the constructs of artistic identity.

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Final Reflections & Community Engagement

• Sean Hayden ([33:14]): Invites listeners to share which moments most impacted them via Instagram (@stagecombatthepodcast) or email.
• Gratitude for Support: Listeners are encouraged to support the podcast via Patreon for exclusive bonus content.

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Looking Ahead

• Season 4 Preview: Premieres April 27, 2026, with the story “Ayana through the Looking Glass,” examining injury and safety in the rush to reopen theaters, especially involving dangerous acts, followed by a conversation with Broadway star Aaron Lazar about living—and healing—with ALS.

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Overall Tone:
Candid, empathic, and advocacy-driven, with a focus on actionable change and honest testimony from within the theater community.

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Table of Key Quotes and Timestamps

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|----------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:23 | Mickey McKee | “Either I do it tonight or I don't have a job. So I did it...” | | 06:08 | Mickey McKee | “You go to hell. Yeah. It was a. A betrayal.” | | 08:51 | Stage Manager | “Everest City was a disaster tonight. You know that, right? You bumped into people. That's a disaster in life.” | | 14:06 | Brett Shuford | “I'm being bullied by the stage manager. And the complicitness that I experienced backstage...” | | 17:34 | Jessica Webb | “If we are not doing [trauma-informed teaching], we are harming.” | | 19:49 | Jessica Webb | “We speak from the scars, not from the open wounds.” | | 24:52 | Laura | “Part of me is ashamed...over what now feels like so stupid, but at the time felt so huge, you know?” | | 27:47 | Laura | “I felt abandoned, and I felt angry. I was really angry...” | | 30:27 | Bobby Stegert | “The thing about narcissism...is that it’s always based in shame...” | | 31:40 | Bobby Stegert | “Part of my healing was getting to be ordinary...then it became a real joy to feel ordinary.” | | 32:31 | Sean Hayden | “To try to be in the pursuit of being a fully realized person that takes in the people around you...” |

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If you haven’t listened yet, this episode offers not just insight, but a call to action for anyone invested in building safer, healthier, and more just workplaces—in theater and beyond.

Transcript

[Mickey McKee]

Foreign.

[Sean Hayden]

Listeners. Sean Hayden here, and welcome to this special bonus episode we're calling five Eye Opening Stage Combat, the Podcast Moments. We're putting the finishing touches on the premiere of season four of Stage Combat, the podcast. Can you believe that we are launching the the fourth season of this podcast? And while we're doing that, I thought it would be nice to regroup with you and share together five really impactful moments from season three that stay with me. They're not necessarily the top five or the only five. It's just five moments that I wanted to revisit with you in this episode. But first, I want you to do something.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

I want you to hit follow right

[Sean Hayden]

now on your podcast platform because you don't want to miss a single episode of the new season of Stage Combat, the podcast that premieres. If you're listening to this when it comes out, it premieres in just two weeks. So go ahead, I'll wait. Hit follow.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Did you do it?

[Mickey McKee]

Great.

[Sean Hayden]

Now let's get on with the episode. And just a note, some of these moments do involve references to self harm and and sexual assault. So please be careful if that is triggering for you. Let's listen to our first eye opening moment from season three of StageCombat the podcast. And I'm just curious, have any of you ever been asked to do a sword fight in the rain? Well, that is what happened to New York actor Nikki Carpenter. He was performing Shakespeare in the park in Brooklyn one summer, and, well, here's the story he told us in an episode called Somebody's Going to Get Hurt.

[Mickey McKee]

So we're in the production, getting towards the epic fight scene towards the end, and the clouds are just rolling in and it starts around us and then over us. And by the time it was over us, it was downpouring. So up till that moment, I just kept trying to say, like, every other show in the city has closed. There's no other outdoor shows running right now. This is irresponsible. This is dangerous. We shouldn't be doing this.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

So you were aware at that time that there were outdoor productions in the area that had stopped or canceled the show that night because of the weather?

[Mickey McKee]

Yeah. For instance, I knew the Delacorte was closed because it was too much rain.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

That's the famous Shakespeare in the park in Central Park.

[Mickey McKee]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Mickey McKee]

So, I mean, I tried to plead my case and he just said, well, I think I know better than the union, and if they want to come down here and show me how to do the show, they are more than welcome.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And when you're pleading your case. Who are you pleading to?

[Mickey McKee]

At that time, the director and producer of the production company. I put my foot down as comfortable as I felt at that age, and then he gave me the ultimatum of, well, then you're either doing it or you're done.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And what did you understand that to mean?

[Mickey McKee]

Either I do it tonight or I don't have a job. So I did it. Even though we pulled the fight back to maybe 50, 60% of the energy, we both slipped as we went for our choreographed headbutt and we both slammed into each other's foreheads at full speed because we slipped at the same time, and we just went boom. That time I regained consciousness as the officiant of the fight was picking me up. And I looked over and my fight partner was pulling his shirt up over his head. And then as it breached his head, blood just gushed down his face. And he then took his shirt, wiped the blood off his face, tied his T shirt around his head to, like, stop the wound from bleeding. We spent the rest of the night at NYU hospital. And I had an egg, basically, on my head from the concussion.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

A huge lump.

[Mickey McKee]

Yeah. And my scene partner now has a Harry Potter scar. So from there, we went to nyu, and because it wasn't life threatening, there were other people that had to go first. And cops kept walking past me and my scene partner as we both have, like, this covering our heads and everything, sitting next to each other. And the cops are like, did you do that to each other? Yeah.

[Brett Shuford]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

It was on purpose, but not supposed to happen. It was so bad that NYPD questioned whether or not you guys had had a real fight on purpose.

[Mickey McKee]

A real fight. But, yep, my scene partner ended up needing stitches, and we both ended up having to stay up all night make sure we didn't have serious concussion.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

How did you feel? We're in the hospital. What are you feeling at that moment?

[Mickey McKee]

I shouldn't be here. I warned you. I told you this would happen. And we're here.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

So the director and the producer, that's the same person. What did that person say to you in the hospital?

[Mickey McKee]

Well, we actually had to have a little talk. He thought I did it on purpose.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Let's just stop right there.

[Mickey McKee]

Yeah. He thought I was trying to prove a point. And by proving my point, I head butted the person, so we had to have a talk.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And what did you.

[Sean Hayden]

Sorry.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

That's bonkers. I mean, what did you think when you heard that?

[Mickey McKee]

You go to hell. Yeah. It was a. A betrayal.

[Sean Hayden]

Since that sword Fight in the rain. McKee went on to become a fight director and instructor, and today teaches his own students about how to look out for their own safety. Keep up the good work, Mickey. So I'm going to be honest with

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

you about this next clip.

[Sean Hayden]

It's a bit difficult to introduce because it features an actor that we all loved who we unfortunately lost to cancer this past January. It's hard to do an episode called Five Eye Opening Moments of this podcast and not include this one. So we're going to do this together as a tribute to actor Brett Shuford. Brett not only left a legacy of being a wonderful husband and a father, but a legacy of being someone willing to speak up about the toxic work environment he experienced while working on Broadway in Wicked. I spent many hours talking with Brett for his story that we featured in the episodes. How are we all okay with this? Parts one and two. We also had a lot of discussions about whether to include a recording he made when he was confronted backstage at Wicked by his stage manager. Finally, Brett decided that including the recording in this episode was the right thing to do.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

So let's listen to our beloved friend Brett Shuford here.

[Brett Shuford]

The stage manager came to me and said, can't give you a proper spacing rehearsal on stage because we don't have time.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And how did the show go that night?

[Brett Shuford]

That first night, I went on with no spacing rehearsal. Honestly, considering I thought it went good, I had no confidence. I probably was like a deer in headlights the whole time. There were two moments where I was like, early on an entrance. And then there was another moment where I just. It was a traffic issue where I went through the wrong people, but it was so fast. And I remember, like, noting, okay, great, but we got through it. Everything was fine. The show was fine. And then I got a text, come to the office.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

It was the stage manager. She wanted to see Brett.

[Brett Shuford]

My heart was racing. I felt so on the spot. I felt like I had just climbed Mount Everest. You know, I just did something really challenging and I'm told what a disaster I was.

[Stage Manager]

Everest City was a disaster tonight. You know that, right? You bumped into people. That's a disaster in life.

[Mickey McKee]

I didn't think, okay, I want to

[Stage Manager]

know if you know what you did wrong. I actually just. I don't know what. I'm hit the point now where I'm getting really frustrated and I'm going to tell you exactly how I feel. I feel like you are not doing your homework. I feel like I cannot. I don't know what more to say to you about trailing and watching and going down on stage and running shows in your head with your headphones on. I don't know what more I can say to you. I feel like you're looking at this job like it's not that big a deal.

[Brett Shuford]

I hear you. I just want to say I think the expectations are based on people who have done this show before.

[Stage Manager]

I'm not using that as an excuse anymore.

[Brett Shuford]

I can't think of a single stage manager on Broadway who would hire a swing who's never been in the show before, who is primarily a character actor

[Stage Manager]

now

[Brett Shuford]

and does eight tracks, who would not be like, thank God I have this person here. And she's sitting here telling me what a disaster I was. And there was this one moment. This was the moment where I was like, what is happening? When she said to me, you've been

[Stage Manager]

here almost six months.

[Brett Shuford]

I've been here three months.

[Stage Manager]

You finish this November. Three months. November to December, December to January. January to February. Okay, three months. You've been here three months.

[Brett Shuford]

Was. I remember there were other stage managers in the office, the assistant stage managers. And this is so vivid to me when I said, I have not been here six months. They stood up, walked out of the room and shut the door.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Why did they do that?

[Brett Shuford]

Because it was. I was challenging her.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And this is an environment where you don't challenge that stage manager.

[Brett Shuford]

I mean, it's what it seemed like to me. Instead of coming to my defense or helping diffuse the situation in some way, everyone just left me in the room with this person.

Listen, I went through the show twice in my apartment today. I mean, I. It doesn't matter how many times. He is not in any. This track is not in any of the tracks near anything I've done previous.

[Stage Manager]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Brett Shuford]

And I. And so I trailed, I watched, but it doesn't make a difference until when I see 20 human beings coming at me, it makes a huge difference than doing it in the studio and doing in my apartment. And this is the only track we have not done spacing rehearsal for.

[Stage Manager]

Oh, no, I understand that also.

[Brett Shuford]

So I. I thought I could pull through. I thought I could do it.

[Stage Manager]

This is what I need for you. Okay. And you lead the rehearsal. Yes. That is the only way we're going to know whether you're ever going to get this.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Okay.

[Stage Manager]

Okay. So that's number one. Number two, I need you again to be pro active. If you need something. I don't know how many more times I can tell you this. I am not going to seek you out. How many times do I have to say that? And are you hearing me?

[Brett Shuford]

Yes.

[Stage Manager]

Just don't. I don't know what more we can do for you.

[Brett Shuford]

And I remember, I just. She was like, do you need another spacing rehearsal? You know, can you do the show again tomorrow?

[Stage Manager]

Do you think you can do this without a spacing rehearsal tomorrow?

[Brett Shuford]

Yes.

[Stage Manager]

Okay. That's all I need to know.

[Brett Shuford]

And I knew that if I didn't say yes, she was probably going to write me up without telling me. Right. Or call the creative teams and tell them he sucks. Right. So my reputation's on the line. So I said, yes, it's fine. I can do it.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Which is not really what you wanted to say.

[Brett Shuford]

Well, honestly, what I wanted to say was, I quit. It just wasn't worth it, you know? And then I got home that night, and I was so distraught. I mean, I was like, I think I'm getting emotional just thinking that, yeah, I didn't expect it.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

What are you feeling right now?

[Brett Shuford]

Grief. Like, I'm just so sad for my. From that person, for me, for, like, that person who was so happy and excited and saw, like, a future for himself doing that show. And, like, all we wanted was to be dads. Like, that was the only thing I wanted, was to be able to pay for surrogacy so that we could raise a child. And I thought that was going to be the job that was going to give me that. And that was the moment I realized, like, this isn't going to give me that. And that's all I wanted. And so I was panicked. I was panicked. I was like. I think I slept for an hour that night. I couldn't sleep. I was so distraught, and I was so scared about going on and screwing up in some way.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And is the thought going through your mind that if I make a mistake, I'm going to get ridden up again and I'm on a path to being fired from the show?

[Brett Shuford]

I honestly, all I could think about at that time was, I just don't want to get called back into the office.

[Sean Hayden]

Brett went back on stage for that same truck.

[Brett Shuford]

And of course, it was perfect. Like, I didn't mess anything up. But I'm in the wings. I'm exhausted. I haven't slept. And people are saying, are you okay? And I would say, no, I'm being bullied by the stage manager. And the complicitness that I experienced backstage, where everyone was just sort of like, yeah, that's how it is here. Welcome. I just was like, how are we all okay with this? How are we all okay? Does

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

so everyone listening. I have so many mixed emotions hearing Brett's story again, and I'm sure you do as well. I'll tell you what comes to my mind is after listening to that again, I'm reminded of how much Brett personally inspired me to continue this podcast beyond the Goodspeed Opera House story. And the way that happened was after I told my own story about the Goodspeed Opera House, Brett reached out to me to support what I was doing. It really meant so much to me because he was one of the first

[Sean Hayden]

Broadway actors to do that.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And then Brett told me, he said, I think I've got a story to tell about Wicked. And that's what inspired us to move beyond the Goodspeed story to tell your stories. And Brett's story inspired so many people to come forward later in season three to tell their stories, such as Eddie Pendergraaff, who also worked at Wicked and whose story really made an impression on

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

a lot of people.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

So let me just say, Brett, we love you, we miss you, and your story will continue to inspire others. Moving on to our third Eye opening moment of the podcast. So one of the topics we get a lot of messages about from you is about the harm inflicted on students by their conservatories and drama programs around the country. In our episode Frankie Takes a Bow, Frankie had experienced a sexual assault. And in the aftermath of that assault, she was in a BFA program which she described as dangerous and mining for trauma. As part of this conversation, we brought in Boston Conservatory Professor John Jessica Webb, and Jessica gave us some straight talk about what's wrong with educators today. Let's listen to my conversation with Jessica from Frankie Takes a Bow. So I think we need to acknowledge that the state of play right now

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

still with most theater programs is they're

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

not taking into account the trauma that any student can be bringing into the program and helping or having skills to help navigate those students so that they're not causing further harm to themselves.

[Jessica Webb]

And if we are not doing that, we are harming. The way that we are teaching is wrong if we are not including the whole student, if we are not assuming, and I am saying that very explicitly, we should be assuming that everyone has trauma because you cannot be a human being on the planet without experiencing. The World Health Organization says a lingering ill effect on self or psyche is the definition of trauma after an event. I cannot name one person I have encountered on the planet who doesn't have some level of a lingering ill effect. Of self or psyche after an event. And so, yes, of course it ranges, but we all have something. So if you are not thinking about working with a trauma influenced lens, you are actively harming the students in front of you. That's not teaching.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Yeah, but the other side of this,

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Jessica, is there is a better way to teach and there's a better way to care for your students, which is

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

the approach that you take with your students.

[Jessica Webb]

I think we have to center our students and give them agency. And I will speak for myself as a faculty member. There's a lot of unlearning I needed to do when I first came to teaching this work. I'm looking at, I'm listening to my students and I'm teaching them how to listen to their own nervous systems. Trauma is what happens when it stops being a conversation. Trauma is what happens when we go into overwhelm, when things activation of the system gets so fast and so big, all of a sudden we're there. And that's something that I used to get praised for. That was something that I would almost brag about is how quickly I could bring myself to tears and sob on the floor. And it wasn't until my work with Betsy Politin with the Actor's Secret, who stopped me as I was training with her and said, slow down. And I was offended. What do you mean, slow down? I was taught for years in my training to get there and get there fast. And she said, you're not with yourself. You're putting yourself in a separation where you're bringing yourself into overwhelm. And even learning that has helped me. It doesn't mean that I don't still go to deeper places that I can't access things. But I have choices now around what has actually been processed. We speak from the scars, not from the open wounds.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

So, I mean, that really is key, is the approach of speaking from scars and not open wounds. And so let's just take Frankie's case. She was doing these exercises from the open wound of having just been raped. There was no scar to go to. No.

[Brett Shuford]

No.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Okay, Jessica Webb, where do we go from here? How do we make things better in these theater programs? Is it just a matter that we need to keep elevating this conversation? Shouldn't this be the conversation every theater program in America is having right now?

[Jessica Webb]

Yes, it should. It absolutely should. And until it is, I think this is where we're looking at. Top down, bottom up. And so I'm talking. I'm going to keep talking. I'm going to watch some people roll their eyes. But frankly, I'm seeing less and less folks questioning or rolling their eyes and more and more agreeing. So that we're creating a network and a community of having this information and passing it on to others, of normalizing these conversations. I think it's going to take our students, who are unfortunately, just as I did. We have to educate ourselves. If our educators are not educated, that's not enough. We have to learn. We have to listen, to hear these conversations and then slowly bring these conversations into other spaces. And so little by little to bring it back to this is what I know I can do. I can talk to Sean today and I can talk about what I believe in. And I hope that someone can hear that and recognize themselves in this conversation, unfortunately, in Frankie's conversation, but that this is the beginning of the conversation and not the end. And then I hope we get to stop talking about it because we've gotten the note.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Yeah, we've gotten the note. Now do something about it. Do something about it. Thank you, Jessica Webb.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Keep doing the good work.

[Jessica Webb]

Thank you, Sean.

[Sean Hayden]

And I just want to applaud people like Jessica Webb who will call out with straight talk. What is wrong in this case with our educational institutions? Where are the people willing to call out? What's wrong with our producers? What's wrong with our theater institutions? Where are they? We need more people like Jessica Webb. Before we move on to eye opening moment number four, I want to remind you that we could really use your support to keep this podcast going for you. And you can do that by supporting us at Stage Combat at Patreon. There's a link in the show notes and that will take you there where you can find unaired extended interviews for our new season four episodes, plus my unfiltered inside information about the making of the episode. And we also have a library of bonus content from season three content. For just $5 a month, you can help us produce meaningful content and there is no commitment. Isn't that great? You could just join us for a month or maybe three months or throughout the. And if you are an existing Stage Combat Patreon member, thank you for making this podcast happen. Moving on to eye opening moment number four. In my own story about the Goodspeed Opera House, I told my account about being the subject of a botched workplace investigation. It was a textbook for HR people to show other HR people how not to conduct a workplace investigation.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

One of our listeners reached out to us after hearing my story to say she had also been the subject of A really messed up investigation at a small theater where she was the artistic director.

[Sean Hayden]

Unfortunately, Laura was so devastated by that investigation that she made an attempt on her life, and she picks up the story here.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

This is from the episode. You're under investigation, Laura's story.

[Laura]

And then I wake up and I'm being put into an ambulance, taken to the emergency room, and I end up being hospitalized for a week.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

How you doing right now?

[Laura]

I'm all right.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Stuff.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

I know.

[Laura]

I know it's hard to go back there. And part of me is ashamed that there's a lot of shame around having done that over what now feels like so stupid, but at the time felt so huge, you know?

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Shame that you felt in such despair so quickly.

[Laura]

Yeah, I think. And when I still had people who loved me, I mean, my husband was on my side. I still had friends who were going to stand up for me, but it was just this idea that I couldn't control or understand why the people who I had trusted and given so much to were so quick to turn on me.

[Sean Hayden]

What did the company mean to you?

[Laura]

Oh, God, it meant a lot. It was. I felt like it was the company I'd always sort of dreamed of building. The mission was really close to my heart. But a lot of my identity was wrapped up in this company. You know, like, seeing myself as a real artist, seeing myself as a creative person, seeing myself as a friend and part of my creative community was all wrapped up in this company. And I felt like if I was able to. If I was able to have this, then I was a real theater artist then. I wasn't just aspiring or I wasn't just struggling. I had made something, and it was mine.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And so the potential loss of your identity, loss of being a part of this company, that was devastating for you.

[Laura]

It was. It was really devastating. And in the meantime, I texted my associate artistic director, and I said, just so you know, before they take my phone away, I'm being hospitalized. And he said, oh, no. And that was it.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Wow. Laura, once they're aware that you're in the hospital, what is the communication from anyone at the company during that week you're in the hospital?

[Laura]

I got one text from one person saying, I don't know what to say, but I'm glad you're all right. And that was it.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Did anyone come to visit you in the hospital? No.

[Laura]

No.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

I assume there weren't any cards or flowers, Laura?

[Laura]

No, there was nothing.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

What did that feel like?

[Laura]

I felt abandoned, and I felt angry. I was really angry, you know, it's

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

interesting is I don't want to equate and I'm not equating our situations, but I. You can't help but think this. I remember thinking after my collapse and as I'm sobbing in the wings, I remember thinking, oh, they're going to see how bad the situation is and that they should have done something, you know?

[Laura]

Yes. I don't mind you comparing our situations at all, Sean, because listening to that first season was so cathartic for me because I felt like, oh my God, here's somebody who knows what I've been through. Yeah, I really did feel that. So.

[Sean Hayden]

I want everyone to know Laura is doing great today and she's flourishing as an artist and I really appreciate what she had to say about identity being fused into her work as an artist. It's a theme that came up many times in our season three stories and we will continue to talk about that in season four. Our last eye opening moment from season three is from our season finale with Broadway star Bobby Stegert called Walking Away from Broadway. Bobby is a Tony nominee for a prior revival of Ragtime, not the One Running now. And he had his own eye opening experience while starring on Broadway in the play Mothers and Sons with Tyne Daly that would lead him to leave his career on Broadway and become a psychotherapist. It was Bobby's epiphany of being okay with what he called being ordinary. That was a huge moment for me, Sean, as the host. I had this big epiphany about that as I was interviewing Bobby. So let's pick up that conversation with Bobby here.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And so that hole that you felt inside yourself when you were on stage in Mothers and Sons, do you eventually get to the point where you feel like you've successfully examined that or healed that, or is it ongoing?

[Bobby Stegert]

It's ongoing. It's a process. You know, age helps, and not being in a system that forces you to be a narcissist helps.

[Brett Shuford]

Yes.

[Bobby Stegert]

And helping others helps.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

I don't know why that made me laugh. It's so truthful.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

It's so true, Bobby.

[Brett Shuford]

It is, yeah.

[Bobby Stegert]

The thing about narcissism, and I've learned this, you know, clinically too, is that it's always based in shame. And that goes all the way to the top. I mean, Donald Trump is deeply ashamed of himself. He hates himself, and that's why he needs all these external markers of power and success.

[Brett Shuford]

And.

[Bobby Stegert]

But it's true of anyone who displays narcissistic tendencies and the system that is the Entertainment industry forces you to be very self involved.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

There are people in the industry with true narcissistic personality disorders. But I do believe, based upon, as I've talked with other psychotherapists, that we all have to have a little bit of narcissism to put ourselves out there, to sort of have that gumption to put ourselves on stage and have someone say, look at me. You agree?

[Bobby Stegert]

I do agree. And that is also the culture we live in.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Bobby Stegert]

So, you know, social media and the way that we are also obsessed with fame is asking us to be narcissistic.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And our political leaders are saying this is okay behavior. It's all around us. It's impossible to escape. And yet we were already working in an industry where it was being reinforced.

[Bobby Stegert]

Right.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Every day as well.

[Bobby Stegert]

So part of my healing was getting to be ordinary. And it was painful at first to feel ordinary, and then it became a real joy to feel ordinary.

[Stage Manager]

That.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Okay, that just really struck something in me. I think I felt that way too.

[Mickey McKee]

Yeah.

[Bobby Stegert]

What did it resonate within you?

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

I think there was a feeling at some point that if I'm not on stage, if I'm not singing, then I'm not special. And to come to the realization that being, we can call it ordinary, but just to try to be in the pursuit of being a fully realized person that takes in the people around you.

[Sean Hayden]

I'm going to get very emotional here. Is so

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

powerful. It's more powerful than any song I could sing on stage in front of a room full of people. It takes a long time to get to that point.

[Bobby Stegert]

It does. And there are so many forces conspiring against that point of view.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

And like you and me, when it's so ingrained as kids and most theater actors that this is this thing we love to do. And as kids, we felt like that made us special.

[Bobby Stegert]

And it did. That's the thing.

[Stage Manager]

It's.

[Sean Hayden]

It did make us special.

[Interviewer (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Bobby Stegert]

The duality is always there.

[Mickey McKee]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

Okay, listeners, what was your most impactful eye opening moment of the series? Was it one of the five we played or one we didn't play? Let us know at instagram @stagecombatthepodcast IG where you can also follow us, send us a DM or you can email [e-mail] we've come a long way since that first episode about the Goodspeed Opera House, and we're proud that we've become the leading voice in the industry to stand up for entertainment workers everywhere. We can't do it without you. So do consider supporting us at Stage Combat at Patreon. Just follow the link in the show notes. I'm going to meet you for this special two part season premiere of Season four. That's in two weeks. It's called Ayana through the Looking Glass. We're going to be looking at whether an iconic Chicago theater's rush to reopen caused a young actor's devastating spinal injuries, and whether the industry needs to do more about safety when it comes to theaters implementing circus acts into their productions. Then we'll follow Ayanna's story with a special conversation with Broadway star Aaron Lazar. Aaron received a diagnosis four years ago of als, and since then he's been on an incredible journey of what he calls healing with als, and he'll be sharing that story with you, the listeners of Stage Combat, the podcast. Just a reminder, nothing in this episode should be considered medical advice or legal advice. So please consult with your own medical professionals and your own attorneys.

[Sean Hayden]

This episode was edited by Alex Griffith

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

and mixed by Justin Garish.

[Sean Hayden]

I'm going to meet you in two

[Podcast Host (Sean Hayden or Co-host)]

weeks for the premiere of Stage Combat Season 4. That's on April 27th. If you're listening to this episode when it first drops, I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story.

[Sean Hayden]

Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions llc.