"Cancel Culture and Scott Rudin's Return to Broadway"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast
Episode: “Cancel Culture and Scott Rudin’s Return to Broadway”
Host: Sean Hayden
Guest: Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (Clinical Psychologist)
Date: May 17, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the controversial return of Scott Rudin, a powerful Broadway and Hollywood producer, following his public “cancellation” due to decades of documented workplace abuse. Host Sean Hayden and returning guest Dr. Elisa Hurwitz explore the wider implications for the industry—questioning whether genuine redemption is possible, the effectiveness and pitfalls of cancel culture, and the broader culture of enabling harmful behavior in entertainment. Through candid conversation, they dissect the ethical, psychological, and industry-wide ramifications of Rudin’s comeback and what it says about Broadway, accountability, and our culture’s difficulty with nuance.

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: Scott Rudin’s Expose and Fallout

• Background (00:44–03:44)
  • In 2021, Scott Rudin, a highly decorated Broadway and film producer, faced public outrage after a Hollywood Reporter expose revealed decades of abusive behavior toward his assistants—a culture of fear, physical violence, and career sabotage.
  • Protests erupted on Broadway. Rudin, after public outcry, agreed to step away from his roles, seemingly vanishing from the public eye.
  • After a "period of reflection" and therapy, Rudin returned in 2025–26 with high-profile productions starring actors like Laurie Metcalf and Nathan Lane.

“Does his return reopen many of the wounds that got him banished in the first place? … Are there some people who are just beyond redemption that they shouldn’t be allowed to just pick up where they left off?” —Sean Hayden (04:17)

---

The Nature of Redemption and Apology

• Is Real Change Possible? (05:50–10:21)
  • Dr. Hurwitz expresses deep skepticism at the sincerity and depth of Rudin’s “rehabilitation,” noting that true redemption requires action, not just words or PR-managed apologies.
  • Rudin’s public statements are critiqued as narcissistic and self-serving, lacking any meaningful gesture toward bettering the industry or making amends with victims.

“Redemption comes through action. You can’t just say it if you’re not also dedicated to showing it...you owe [the harmed] that.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (10:03)

“He is 100% centering himself in that explanation.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz describing Rudin’s rationale for returning (11:04)

---

The Return and Industry Accountability

• Why Is Rudin Allowed Back? Enablers and Industry Economics (06:03–08:59)
  • Both Hayden and Dr. Hurwitz highlight how systemic enabling, profit motives, and the normalization or minimization of abusive behavior contribute to ongoing issues.
  • Powerful and successful abusers are regularly welcomed back because they “make money”—capitalism often trumps ethical reform.

“It takes a lot of people to create an atmosphere where abuse is permissible.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (07:09)

---

The Role of Artists and Enablers

• Debate: Should Laurie Metcalf and Nathan Lane Be Criticized? (13:14–16:50)
  • Discussion on public disappointment in major stars choosing to work with Rudin upon his return. Should actors like Metcalf and Lane be held accountable, or should the focus remain on the abuser?
  • Critique of industry dynamics where women (e.g., Metcalf) face disproportionate scrutiny compared to male actors (e.g., Lane).

“The primary problem here isn’t Laurie Metcalf or Nathan Lane working with Scott Rudin again. The primary problem here is Scott Rudin’s abusive behavior.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (14:02)

“I think we need to save our energy for focusing on the actual perpetrator, not the woman who is...working with the perpetrator.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (14:25)

• Institutional Accountability (16:47–17:34)
  • Steppenwolf Theatre declined to partner with Rudin, citing misalignment in values and lack of evidence of his change—showing institutions can set standards even when stars and the rest of Broadway do not.

“Rudin never made us feel that he had done the work.” —Steppenwolf representative, quoted by Hayden (17:30)

---

The Real Impact of Abuse

• Testimony From a Former Assistant (18:03–19:05)
  • Hayden reads a haunting assistant testimonial: being screamed at, spat on, and having dreams destroyed by Rudin’s abusive leadership.
  • The visceral nature of such abuse is a core reason many in the community cannot simply “move on.”

“‘When you feel his spit on your face as he's screaming at you, saying you’re worth nothing…some have given up their dreams.’...That angry and that close.” —Assistant quoted, discussion at (18:09 & 18:57)

---

The Wider Reckoning: MeToo, Social Justice, and the Limits of Change

• What Did Broadway Learn? (19:29–22:38)
  • Rudin’s downfall followed a wave of industry reckonings post-MeToo, amidst calls for racial justice, equity, and accessibility.
  • Despite the initial surge of activism, meaningful and lasting change has been elusive—unions like Equity have made only limited reforms, and the leverage of actors appears weak.

“‘They forgot that we have the last say in this business. Actors come last, and we’re the ones out there selling your product, end quote. Now, does anyone feel that way today?’” —Sean Hayden, quoting a protester and questioning ongoing actor power (21:37)

“If that had sustained, they would be [shaking in their boots]. But we haven’t sustained it.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (22:05)

---

Cancel Culture: Definition, Value, and Pitfalls

• Is Cancel Culture Effective—or Fair? (22:38–27:21)
  • Hayden and Hurwitz debate the merits and excesses of cancel culture. Is anyone truly irredeemable? Does cancel culture leave room for nuance or genuine growth?
  • Dr. Hurwitz critiques the term, suggesting much of what’s called “cancel culture” is actually mob mentality, which gives people a psychological dopamine hit and a sense of moral superiority.

“I don’t like the term cancel culture at all because I don’t feel like it describes really what it is, which is mob mentality.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (24:53)

“There is a difference between someone who made perhaps a verbally inappropriate sexual comment versus someone who raped someone, and that there was a mentality to loop all of those people into the same basket.” —Sean Hayden (26:40)

---

The Aftermath—What (Little) Has Changed

• Union Action & Ongoing Inconsistencies (27:32–29:14)
  • Some reforms followed, such as eliminating NDAs on Rudin’s shows and small harassment provision updates, but Equity did not place Rudin on a “Do Not Work” list—unlike less successful, less profitable abusers.

“So Rudin was a more successful abuser. Is that where we are at the end of the day? He made more money for people.” —Sean Hayden (29:06)

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Superficial Redemption:
  • “He’s asking us to sweep it under the rug. Forget it happened. Right. Because without active amends, nothing has changed.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (12:48)
• On Misplaced Outrage:
  • “If you’re angry about Laurie Metcalf working with Rudin, you need to also have that anger for Nathan Lane.” —Hayden/guest, addressing double standards (14:54)
• On Industry Priorities:
  • “Broadway’s a business.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (28:25)
• On Personal Agency:
  • “What I always say to people...is find your way of being part of the solution. Some of us...are not going to be the one that solves it, but you can be part of the solution. And all of that adds up.” —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (29:31)

---

Key Segments & Timestamps

• Protest and Rudin’s Banishing: 00:44–03:44
• Rudin’s Return & Industry Reactions: 03:44–06:41
• Redemption, Apology, and Action: 05:55–12:48
• Accountability for Metcalf/Lane vs. Rudin: 13:14–16:50
• Steppenwolf Resists Rudin: 16:50–17:34
• Testimonial of Abuse: 18:03–19:05
• Context: Industry Reckoning and Stalled Change: 19:29–22:38
• Cancel Culture – Definitions and Dangers: 22:38–27:21
• Union Responses and the Limits of Change: 27:32–29:14
• Final Call to Action: 29:17–29:50

---

Episode Tone & Takeaways

Candid, searching, and sometimes frustrated, this episode paints a complex picture—one where progress is slow and uneven, where powerful figures repeatedly return despite having done real harm, and where superficial gestures of “healing” are often accepted as enough. Both host and guest emphasize the need for collective and institutional action, nuanced judgment, and persistence from individuals who want genuine change. While the conversation concludes with more questions than answers, there’s a clear call for listeners to “be part of the solution”—and to refuse to let the abuses and evasions of power go unchallenged.

---

"It is so overwhelming...None of us are going to be the one that solves it, but you can be part of the solution. And all of that adds up." —Dr. Elisa Hurwitz (29:31)

Transcript

[Unknown Guest 1]

Foreign.

[Sean Hayden]

I'm an attorney, I'm an actor, and I'm an advocate.

My name is Sean Hayden.

When I was wrongfully fired as an actor from a certain famous theater, I fought back.

Suddenly I was a whistleblower and I told my story true crime style in a podcast. Since then, I've been telling your stories

and having the tough conversations that a

lot of people in the entertainment we

don't want us to have.

This is Stage Combat, the podcast.

Let's do a little time traveling together. Don't worry, we actually don't have to go back that far. We're going back to the year 2021. And the date is Thursday, April 22nd. And on this day, a protest march is descending down Broadway in New York City.

[News Reporter]

Hundreds of Broadway actors and theater workers came out today marching on Broadway and they have a list of demands.

[Sean Hayden]

We want to shut Scott Rudin out of the Broadway League.

That protester is talking about the Scott Rudin, the Oscar winning producer behind the film no country for Old Men and the winner of 17 Tony Awards. Rudin produced hits on Broadway such as the Book of Mormon and To Kill a Mockingbird. And what brought on this march down Broadway? Well, just two weeks prior to this march, the Hollywood Reporter published a blistering expose called Scott Rudin Unhinged. And it caused shock waves throughout the industry.

[News Reporter]

Two weeks ago, the Hollywood Reporter published this expose of Rudin after former assistants came forward calling him an absolute monster and bully. The volatile Rudin is accused of throwing a glass bowl.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Hugh Jackman's the latest Hollywood heavyweight to denounce one of entertainment's most powerful figures, Scott Rudin.

[Sean Hayden]

And what were those allegations by Rudin's former assistants? Well, these employees alleged Rudin exhibited a pattern of abusive behavior towards them and created a culture of fear. And one notorious incident, Rudin allegedly threw and smashed a computer monitor on an assistant's hand after the assistant could not get Rudin on a sold out flight. That assistant had to go to the emergency room. In fact, throwing things at employees seemed to be a habit of Rudin's, according

to this article, whether it was a

glass bowl, a stapler and even a baked potato. Another alleged tactic was for Rudin to force an employee out of his car and force the employee to walk home. Then there were allegations of Rudin spreading lies about fired employees through the industry to ruin their careers. Having his victims film credits retroactively decreased

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

after they were fired or left their

[Sean Hayden]

jobs and an aggressive use of non disparagement agreements with his employees so they could never speak out. As outrage and cries for Rudin to be canceled grew, Rudin agreed in 2021 to step away from his Broadway and film producing positions, and he seemed to quietly disappear. But then, a year ago, a feature in the New York Times was published where Rudin made an announcement he was ready to return to Broadway, ready to make theater again after what the Times called, quote, a period reading and reflection, and after Rudin had reportedly undergone a decent amount of therapy and made apologies to many people again, according to the Times. And yep, this past season, Rudin was back on Broadway with the play Little Bear Ridge Road, starring Laurie Metcalfe, and this spring with Broadway's biggest play of the season, the revival of Death of a Salesman, again with Laurie Metcalfe and also starring Nathan Lane. Both of those productions were directed by Joe Mantello. I have so many questions about what Rudin's return represents. Does his return reopen many of the wounds that got him banished in the first place? What does it say about Broadway that it has apparently welcomed him back? Are there some people who are just beyond redemption that they shouldn't be allowed to just pick up where they left off?

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

To answer these questions, I knew I

[Sean Hayden]

needed to speak with someone who specializes in straight talk. So of course, I immediately reached out to clinical psychologist and friend to the podcast, Dr. Elisa Hurwitz.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Chances are he's redeemable. Theoretically. Yeah, doing that is a whole different thing. Reading his apology, I think it was in the Times article. It write in hollow to me.

[Sean Hayden]

I think a lot of people are feeling that way. Alisa, I want to put my finger

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

on what it is.

[Sean Hayden]

Go for it.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Redemption comes through action. You can't just say it if you're not also dedicated to showing it. And part of saying it is telling people who were impacted by this how you are going to take action to make amends.

[Sean Hayden]

I'm Sean Hayden, and you're listening to season four of stage, the podcast. This is episode four, cancel culture and Scott Rudin's return to Broadway.

Dr. Alisa Hurwitz, welcome back to stagecomb at the podcast.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Thank you.

[Sean Hayden]

Scott Rudin, he's back on Broadway, right? How do you feel about that?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Deep sigh. I mean, it's not surprising, I guess. You know, money talks and he has had, you know, success as a producer in terms of making money for whatever that is worth. But I mean, people who are abusive get to pass all the time. Not for nothing, look at who our president is.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, you know, I was talking to two of the guys who were Survivors of William Ivy Long and you know, about him working secretly on the Queen

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

of Versailles on Broadway.

[Sean Hayden]

And it came up in that conversation. Is this not emblematic of the shrugging off across the country of bad people when you see who's being pardoned, who's being rewarded? If I was William Ivy Long or if I was Scott Rudin, I would be like, why am I staying away?

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Right.

[Sean Hayden]

Right.

Why am I not back working?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Right. I mean, it takes a lot of people to create an atmosphere where abuse is permissible. I think it was a pretty good documentary on Netflix, I think, about Sean Combs and his abuse. And one of the things that was pretty impactful was how long the abuse is going on. So how many enablers did he have?

[Sean Hayden]

Well, the infamous Hollywood Reporter expose, it noted that this abuse went back for four decades in both the film and the theater industry. So you're right. How many people had to have enabled that over 40 years?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

We make excuses for it. I mean, on the one hand, again, it's, you know, capitalism. And yes, businesses have to make money, but businesses make money at a really extreme cost to individuals. On the other hand, or in addition, abuse has been so not normalized, but swept under the rug. And then when people do come out and report it in a myriad number of forms and ways, there is a trend of not believing people.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, let me ask you this. If it seems like Broadway as an industry has shrugged this off of Rudin coming back, because you've got Lori Metcalf and Nathan Lane in Death of a Salesman, my feeling is, based on the comments I've seen on our social media, is that the actors, the stage managers, they have not shrugged it off. They're still really upset. And I think the question is, is there something about what this particular person did, Scott Rudin.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

That is unredeemable, that you, you shouldn't be allowed to come back.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah. I'll tell you that actually very few people don't have the potential to be redeemed. There's very few people, and I'm talking people who truly have sociopathic personality disorder, malignant narcissistic personality disorder. I'm talking some pretty extreme behaviors and the basically just being so, so problematic cognitively and neurologically that they actually can't change.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. We're talking about the ability to change in this case, what appeared to have been a 40 year pattern of behavior. Right. I mean, it makes you very cynical about him, like.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Right. Chances are he's redeemable. Theoretically.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Doing that is a whole different thing. Reading his apology, I think it was in the Times article. It ran hollow to me.

[Sean Hayden]

I think a lot of people are feeling that way. Elisa.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

I want to put my finger on what it is.

[Sean Hayden]

Go for it.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Redemption comes through action. You can't just say it if you're not also dedicated to showing it. And part of saying it is telling people who were impacted by this how you are going to take action to make amends. Kind of like you owe them that.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

I mean, one of his quotes stuck

[Sean Hayden]

out to me, and it seemed to be a quote for his justification for coming back to Broadway. And he said, quote, it wasn't that I felt passionately like anybody had missed me or that I had missed it, but I felt like I wasn't done and that if I still had more work, I was able to make that I should make it, that I had an obligation to do something that I really care about, which is the theater that feels. That just feels very selfish to me. Am I. Am I wrong on that?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

I mean, it sounds very narcissistic. Totally.

[Sean Hayden]

It sounds narcissistic.

Yeah.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Not saying I'm diagnosing him with that personality disorder.

[Sean Hayden]

We are not. We are not.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Behaviors can be narcissistic without the person having narcissistic personality disorder. In fact, we all do things that are narcissistic. Some of them, though, get to the realm of offensive or harmful, as in this case. I mean, he is 100% centering himself in that explanation.

[Sean Hayden]

It's about him. Yeah. Yeah. And I think about, okay, if I had that much money and if I were Scott Rudin, what are all the things I could do to show people, hey, all those years of therapy I spent in the Hamptons have paid off. I have this bold plan to bring theater into the inner city or to disadvantaged neighborhoods or marginalized communities. I'm going to make Broadway seats not only more accessible to the disabled challenge, but also people who can't afford tickets. I mean, we could keep going down the list. I'm going to develop new works from marginalized artists who don't get the opportunity, like me, a privileged white man. Talking about Scott Rudin, There are so many things that you could have done that a PR company just be cynical, that a PR company could have said, okay, Mr. Rudin, we came up with a Return to Broadway plan, and here's some steps that you can do. And then we can market them to the press, and people will say, oh, look, he's changed. Look at the good works that he's doing. Let's welcome him back. But that doesn't appear to have happened.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

No, it's the same pattern. It's basically, he's asking us to sweep it under the rug. Forget it happened. Right. Because without active amends, nothing has changed. So the apologies don't mean anything. He's just coming back and. And hoping that everybody forgets, which already they have.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Elisa, I have heard a lot of people talking about how upset they are about Nathan Lane and Lori Metcalf choosing to work with Scott Rudin and Death of a Salesman. It's actually two times for Laurie Metcalf because she also did Little Bear Ridge Road. That was Scott Rudin's production last fall. Metcalfe and Lane surely have the power to choose who they are going to work with, and many people see them making a statement and their decision to

[Sean Hayden]

work with Rudin, and they're disappointed by that.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah, that's valid. You know, working with somebody who has been, you know, blacklisted from the industry for a time because of the exposure of his abuse seems like a validation.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Right, Like a validation of Rudin.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Of Scott Rudin.

[Sean Hayden]

Yes. Yeah.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

The primary problem here isn't Laurie Metcalf or Nathan Lane working with Scott Rudin. Again, the primary problem here is Scott Rudin's abusive behavior. Also worth noting, of the two of the actors we're talking about who have prominent names in the theater community and Broadway, it is the woman who's speaking out. And it's okay to, I think, hold her accountable for her words, but I think we need to save our energy for focusing on the actual perpetrator, not the woman who is, you know, working with the perpetrator.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

So let's unpack that. We're talking about two things, is one, a couple weeks ago, Lori Metcalf came out and made statements about her decision

[Sean Hayden]

to work with Rudin and the New Yorker.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Nathan Lane has said nothing. If you're angry about Laurie Metcalfe working

[Sean Hayden]

with Rudin, you need to also have

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

that anger for Nathan Lane.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And I want to talk in just a second about what Laurie Metcalf said,

[Sean Hayden]

but what you're saying is people can

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

be disappointed with these two actors, but it also. Let's not forget that the problem is Rudin.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

But I do want to address what she said in the New Yorker. The reporter asked her about working with Rudin again. He notes, she fumbled for words before taking a piece of notebook paper from her fanny pack. She had reread his Times interview, which we were talking about, and jotted down notes and then he quotes Metcalfe as saying, he talked about his therapy. He apologized. He owned what he said. He reflected on it. He was in the process of rehabilitation. So I just think that unless we think there is no possibility of real rehabilitation, then we shouldn't ask people to try and do it. And then the reporter notes, she sighed, unsure of herself, and quotes Metcalf as saying, I knew you had asked me at some point. It's so touchy. It's so hard.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah. Reading those words. I have two kind of train of thoughts on that.

[News Reporter]

What are they?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

First is that, I mean, you can make the argument that she's put herself in this situation, certainly. But I also can hear that she feels stuck, you know, between a rock and a hard place. You kind of can't win by saying anything. And again, the main fault for that or the main responsibility for that is Scott Rudin. But then to break down what she's saying, I agree with what she's saying, but I don't agree with what she has left out, which is that an apology isn't enough. And saying, you've had therapy. I'm saying this as a psychologist. That's not enough. That's not amends. Amends would be doing something to change the industry and the power structures and abuse within it, all the things that

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

we've been talking about earlier.

[Sean Hayden]

Where are the acts?

Where are the works?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yep.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And just an interesting footnote on this. The other show she did, Little Bear Ridge Road, was originally commissioned by Steppenwolf Theater in Chicago, which she's, like, goes way back with.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And Rudin offered to bring that show to New York as his first Broadway show, but Steppenwolf declined to work with him. Someone from Steppenwolf was quoted as saying it didn't feel in alignment with our values and mission that he would come back on Steppenwolf's name. Why would we partner with someone who the industry felt really harmed by? We can't be a vehicle for someone to prove that they've changed. And then they say, Rudin never made us feel that he had done the work, which is what we've been talking about, Elisa.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah. And that's interesting to hear them say that. Kudos to Steppenwolf. And that's essentially what we're asking other people with power in the industry to do and institutions. Institutions. Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Okay. Steppenwolf. Yay.

[Sean Hayden]

Going back to the original Hollywood Reporter

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

story about Rudin and his assistants, I just want to read one quote from the article that I read again. Last night and had a real reaction to it.

[Sean Hayden]

This is from one of the assistants

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

talking about working with Rudin.

[Sean Hayden]

When you feel his spit on your face as he's screaming at you, saying you're worth nothing, it obviously makes an impact. And we're young. Over his long career, there are hundreds and hundreds of people who have suffered, and some have given up their dreams because he made them feel and believe that they can't do whatever it is they're trying to do. I think that encapsulates so much about not only the nature of abuse, but when we talk about abuses in the industry, burning out, destroying artists. Yeah. What are your thoughts?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

I'm struck by the words. When you feel his spit on your face.

[Sean Hayden]

Right.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Because it makes it visceral.

[Sean Hayden]

Yes. That's. Yeah. And that's why people cannot get over this.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

And if you just stop and imagine for a second someone yelling at you so close that their spit is going on your face, would you be so quick to forgive them?

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. I mean, that's all you needed to hear in the quote. Stop. Okay, I'm. I'm done. I've. I. I've got. I got it, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

That angry and that close. Unless, I guess you're Jonathan Gro, because

[Sean Hayden]

who does spit a lot. I think we're also kind of forgetting the context when all of this happened. So MeToo is, what, 2017? And this all happens with Rudin in 2021. But you had several abusers toppled in between that time, from Weinstein to Rudin. If you remember this, there was the Sharon Osborne controversy at the talk, executive producers at the Ellen DeGeneres Show. Gabrielle Union got a settlement from NBC on America's Got Talent about a toxic culture. And that also included fellow judge Simon Cowell. And there was supposed to be a reckoning. And do you remember the march, the big march right here in New York City? And I went back and looked at that, and I was reminded that it not only became about Rudin himself, but also the social justice aspect in the industry. The racism, the lack of accessibility for disabled persons, the lack of transparency with Actors Equity. There was a lot of anger at Actors Equity, so there was a hope that this was going to be a big reckoning. It was about Rudin, but it was about so much more. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that's why people are having such a difficult time with this as well.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah. I think that's a fair assessment. And if that was the reckoning and he had to leave and now he's Coming back without really seeming sorry or doing anything to show his amends.

[Audience Member or Listener]

I pulled this quote from someone at the time of the march. This person said, as the march was happening, quote, I feel that people, producers, the union are a little shaken in their boots right now. They forgot that we have the last

[Sean Hayden]

say in this business.

[Audience Member or Listener]

Actors come last, and we're the ones out there selling your product, end quote. Now, does anyone feel that way today? I mean, is anyone happy with, say, the Broadway contract that was ratified last year by Equity, that in fact it lost gains, didn't even keep up with inflation, did nothing about mental health? Does anyone really feel like the industry is shaking in their boots because of the powerful actors?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Right. If that had sustained, I think they would be, because, I mean, it's the story as old as time. Like, they don't want you to know that we have power. We outnumber them literally. So if it was sustained, they would be shaking in their boots. So then they know that we're coming for them, for them to be accountable. But we haven't sustained it. So I agree with you. No one's. No one's shaking in their boots.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. Hey, I want to talk about cancel culture because Rudin's exile was the perfect example of perhaps cancel culture working. You know, I look back and I realize it's a relatively new phrase. I mean, we've always had boycotts, you know, but that term really only came out around 2018, a year after me too. Right, yeah. And then we have a backlash against cancel culture because, you know, I think with everything, the pendulum can swing too far, it can swing too left, it can swing too right.

I hate the literal idea of cancel

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

culture because that says to me that

[Audience Member or Listener]

no one has the opportunity to be redeemed.

[Sean Hayden]

If you believe in principles of Christianity

or just being a decent person, don't you want there to be opportunities for redemption?

[Audience Member or Listener]

Now, perhaps in some cases, perhaps like

[Sean Hayden]

in Rudin's, that shouldn't be the case. Or perhaps when we're talking about sexual

[Audience Member or Listener]

predators, that's a different case.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, I think there's a lot of instances where we just erase people for something they just carelessly said and come out and make an apology. But still that's not enough. So I have very conflicted feelings, particularly within the Broadway community. I think despite a lot of well meaning people, there's a lot of gotcha mentality that happens that really discourages public discourse, intelligent public discourse. It's a problem across the country, but I think we can fall prey to that in that big mess of a soup that I just gave you. What kind of thoughts are jumping out to you right now?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah, there's a distinction that you're referring to between canceling somebody, you know, because of them inadvertently saying something offensive and harmful, which is valid, to be harmed by such a thing, and somebody being either unredeemable. Slash has not done the work to redeem themselves. Slash has done an unforgivable crime or

[Sean Hayden]

perhaps is a continuing danger to other people.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yes. Yeah, that is different. And to me, I don't like the term cancel culture at all because I don't feel like it describes really what it is, which is mob mentality. This is what I think as a psychologist and as a person, I think there is too much canceling of people. And the psychological kind of mechanism of that is that if we point our finger and said, you did a bad thing and you have to get out of here, you're gone. So they're bad and I'm good because I stood up to something bad and I'm still here. So I think that's why it happens. And of course, also my mentality. I mean, you're more likely to. To do any action if people around you are doing it.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, don't you think there's something that certain people get from that mob mentality? And particularly as you're doing this as an anonymous social media post, it gives you a. A dopamine hit. It gives you a sense of power.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Perhaps for people who feel powerless or people who feel resentful for not achieving success, maybe in a certain industry or.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah, the likes and the comments. You're so right. It validates the individual's sense of self as a good person. And most people view themselves as a good person, and we really like to hang onto that.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And too many of us are not willing to be open to nuance.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah. Remember nuance?

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

What was that like?

You know, I remember something with a Hollywood star, and he was trying to say something along the lines. Perhaps he didn't artfully say it, but he was trying to say something. There was a difference between someone who made perhaps a verbally inappropriate sexual comment versus someone who raped someone, and that there was a mentality to loop all of those people into the same basket, and this particular star was reamed for that. Which, if you use your common sense. Yes, there is a difference. There is a difference.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Right.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, gee, at the end of this conversation, my head's spinning a little bit. Where are we at the end of this conversation?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Oh, Gosh.

[Sean Hayden]

Right. Where are you, the listener listening to this?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

It's head spinning because it leaves us in the same spot. I don't know. Did we make any progress? I don't. I mean, if someone like Scott Rudin can come back to the industry without making amends, did we get anywhere?

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, I mean, perhaps. I know that if we're looking in terms of Equity, at least with the Broadway league, Rudin had NDAs.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

So if you were in one of

[Sean Hayden]

his shows, you couldn't disclose the workplace bullying. So they got rid of that.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

So that's something.

[Sean Hayden]

And then I guess they toughened up some of the harassment provisions on the contracts, but they didn't put him on the do not work list.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Broadway's a business.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And they claimed it was. Cause it only applies to non union productions. But one year later, Garth Drabinski was put on the do not work list because of Paradise Square. Who knows? But you can see where our heads are spinning when our own actors union seems to be inconsistent. Because if he had been put on a do not work list like Garth Trabinsky, then we wouldn't be having this conversation about Rudin today.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

But you know what the difference is? Garth Trubinsky didn't make money on those shows.

[Sean Hayden]

Oh, you think that's what it is?

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

Yeah, I mean, I think that might be it. Not consciously, but, you know, that's.

[Sean Hayden]

So Rudin was a more successful abuser. Is that where we are at the

[Audience Member or Listener]

end of the day?

[Sean Hayden]

He made more money for people.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

I know, but I mean, that's capitalism.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, look, at the end of the day, it's very easy to throw up your hands and say things will never change. And I know it's very easy to

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

do that with what's going on in the country.

[Sean Hayden]

We just got to keep making our voices known.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

You know, it is so overwhelming. What I always say to people, for whatever it's worth, is find your way of being part of the solution. Some of us, not, none of us are going to be the one that solves it, but you can be part of the solution. And all of that adds up.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, you're right.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

All of that adds up. Thank you, Dr. Hurwitz, for sharing this

[Sean Hayden]

amazing conversation with me.

[Dr. Elisa Hurwitz]

It's always a pleasure to talk with you.

[Sean Hayden]

Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat, the podcast season four, Christopher Webb, professor at Boston Conservatory at Berkeley, is joining me as together we ask the question, has there been a war on artists since the second Trump administration began?

Did you know I was a history major.

[Unknown Guest 1]

I think you said that to me once or twice.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah. And so I'm like, yeah, this is

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

out of the fascism playbook.

[Sean Hayden]

I mean, I mean, go back to

any fascist regime and the first thing you do is you attack the arts because the arts are the source of resistance.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And you also think about in times of great financial struggle, the arts thrived. I mean, look at the 1920s and 19 teens when we were in the middle of the Great Depression. And yet also there is this resurgence of art in this country now there was all government funded art with the WPA because we had a president who actually believed in.

[Sean Hayden]

Right.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Great works and investing back into the country. But I don't know, I feel like we could swing that way again.

[Audience Member or Listener]

That's coming up on our next episode,

[Sean Hayden]

the War on Artist Under Trump. What did you think of my conversation with Dr. Elisa Hurwitz? You may not agree with everything we had to say, and that's okay. Just let us know your thoughts. Send us a DM at Instagram Tage Combat, the podcast ig, where you can also follow us and comment on our social media or email [e-mail] you can hear bonus content of my conversation with Dr. Hurwitz plus insider information about this episode at Stage Combat at Patreon. Just follow the link in the show notes. If you believe in the meaningful content we are producing, you can support us for just $5 a month so we can produce more episodes for you. And there's no commitment. Isn't that great? You can enjoy the bonus content you want to explore for a month or three months or even throughout the year. And if you are an existing Patreon member, thank you for making this podcast happen. This episode was edited by Alex Griffith. Mixing and sound design were by Justin Gerrish. This episode was written and directed by me, Sean Hayden for Heywood Productions llc. Be sure to hit follow on your podcast platform so you do not miss a single episode of Stage Combat. Do it right now. And while you're there watching, why not rate us five stars and leave a review to let others know what this podcast means to you. I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Haywood Productions llc.