"Heated Rivalry and How Do Actors Portray S-x Scenes"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast — Episode 3, Season 4: "Heated Rivalry and How Do Actors Portray Sex Scenes"

Released: May 10, 2026
Host: Sean Hayden
Featured Guest: Nicole Perry (Intimacy Director/Coordinator)

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Overview

This episode of Stage Combat the Podcast dives into the evolving role of intimacy coordinators and directors in film and theater, using the cultural phenomenon "Heated Rivalry" as a springboard. Host Sean Hayden brings in renowned intimacy director Nicole Perry to demystify how actors safely and effectively portray sex scenes, address misconceptions, and answer candid listener questions—including those from Sean's own mother-in-law. The discussion challenges industry traditions, examines gendered double standards, and emphasizes the vital importance of consent and intentional storytelling in intimacy work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Heated Rivalry as a Case Study

• "Heated Rivalry," a hit TV series featuring the romance of gay hockey players Shane Hollander and Ilya Rosenoff, has sparked widespread conversations about the portrayal of sex scenes and the behind-the-scenes support actors receive.
• Sean notes, "Every sex scene, every move was part of the story" ([03:29]).

The Role of Intimacy Coordinators and Directors

• Nicole Perry explains the distinction:
  • Intimacy Directors: Work in live performance (theater, opera, dance).
  • Intimacy Coordinators: Work in recorded media (film, TV).
  • "In terms of the job that we do, [it's] pretty much the same thing...An intimacy director works in live performance…and an intimacy coordinator works in recorded performance" ([05:41]).
• Their tasks include understanding story needs, advocating for actors, facilitating consent-based processes, and choreography where necessary:
  • "The most common function...always starts with knowing what story we're telling and assisting in telling that story in consent-based ways" ([06:17–06:36]).
  • Choreography is especially detailed for intimacy, unlike the historical norm of simply telling actors, "'You will kiss here.' And it was up to me, which is so bizarre to say out loud now" ([06:55]—Sean Hayden).

Why Intimacy Work Matters

• Discussing traditional methods:
  • "It's the only time we say that, particularly in theater, that we're like, 'Just go for it,' and it just boggles my mind that for so many years we were like, I hope you have some experience to draw on and some luck, because it's up to you" ([07:23]—Nicole Perry).
• Intimacy support builds confidence and fosters safety for actors:
  • "I can use my whole self to be this character in this moment. And I know that I've got these frameworks to help protect us" ([13:09]—Nicole Perry).

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Gwyneth Paltrow’s Comments ([08:42])

• "There's now something called an intimacy coordinator, which I did not know existed. Really, Gwyneth? Really?" ([08:42]—Sean Hayden).
• Nicole responds: "The comments of like, 'I don't need it, so therefore no one needs it.' Right. That’s bananas" ([09:28]).
• Discusses the importance of respecting that everyone’s needs on set may differ, countering the notion that seeking help is a sign of weakness or inexperience.

On the Impact of “Heated Rivalry” ([10:33])

• The show’s process included in-depth rehearsal of intimate scenes, which is a rarity in TV/film and a result of directorial support.
• Nicole notes, "It is unusual, and that’s something that the showrunner really advocated for" ([11:09]).

On Choreography and Artistic Freedom

• Nicole: "There are times I choreograph beat by beat...But there are also times that I don't do that, that it's more of like a movement score...There's still space in that for an artist to make their own choices" ([11:46]).

Legal and Industry Context ([16:13])

• Intimacy coordinators are not legally required, but there’s growing industry pressure due to safety and liability concerns: "Nope. We sure are not…Consent also means that people have the ability to make choices, even if I think they should make other choices" ([16:22]).
• Growth of the role is linked to the MeToo movement and industry response to high-profile abuses ([17:23–18:50]).

Gender, Homophobia, and Misogyny in Intimacy Conversations ([21:16])

• Prompted by listener questions about why "Heated Rivalry" garnered more attention for its intimacy work, Nicole identifies toxic masculinity as a root cause:
  • "I think it's toxic masculinity...I think these two actors have changed that perspective in part because they're men..." ([21:16]).
  • Strong contrast is drawn with how female actors have historically been treated and perceived ([23:35]—Nicole Perry).

Listener Q&A—The “Mother-in-Law” Segment

(Timestamps: [27:25–35:40], interspersed throughout)

• Do actors ever get aroused during sex scenes?
  • Nicole: “Bodies are bodies. Biology happens as it happens...So yeah, it happens. And we talk about it” ([27:41]).
  • Mitigation strategies include physical barriers and transparent communication.
• Is tongue in a stage or screen kiss director’s decision or actor’s?
  • Nicole: "This kiss, we will choreograph it, but we're expecting open mouth, no tongue, because we don't need to see the tongue...If the director has said...then that's part of the conversation with the actors" ([30:22–32:01]).
• Are actors ever repulsed by their scene partners?
  • Nicole: "Real life. And, like, also, it's called acting...We have people of all genders and sexualities playing in roles that call for them to act all different sexualities" ([32:19]).
  • Host Sean adds it's usually about interpersonal issues rather than physical attributes; professionalism is expected ([32:36–34:42]).

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Additional Key Segments and Timestamps

• Discussion of Heated Rivalry’s scripting process: [14:19–15:04]
  "Sometimes directions, like, they kiss, it’s not very helpful. But it also leaves it open to interpretation..."

• Why accurate queer sex representation matters: [26:26]
  "When we see scenes of queer sex, I think it is really important...that we do them accurately...there's not as much representation. And so the representation should be excellent."

• Casting and Auditions: Boundaries & Bias: [33:13–34:42]
  "We need to say, in an audition notice, character A has on stage intimacy with character B..."
  "A boundary can only be about me and myself, and a bias is against somebody else."

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Tone and Highlights

• Forthright, sometimes cheeky, and always grounded in respect for both actors and craft.
• Memorable moments include Sean's sardonic take on Gwyneth Paltrow's “under a rock” comments; Carol’s unfiltered curiosity about actor arousal; and the hosts' mutual laughter about awkward or anatomically inaccurate Hollywood depictions.

Standout Quotes

• "If the choreography doesn't tell the story, what's the point?" ([03:25]—Nicole Perry)
• "I can use my whole self to be this character in this moment. And I know that I've got these frameworks to help protect us." ([13:09]—Nicole Perry)
• "It took these two good looking...young men...to change how people pay attention to intimacy on set—It’s just good old fashioned American misogyny." ([23:03]—Sean Hayden)

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Conclusion

Sean and Nicole wrap up by emphasizing the expanding roles intimacy professionals play—not just in choreographing sex scenes but in managing a spectrum of sensitive content. Nicole’s new book, Careful Creativity in Theater and Dance Education, is mentioned for those interested in trauma-informed, consent-forward teaching. The episode closes with a teaser for the next show on Scott Rudin’s return to Broadway and a thank you to listeners for engaging with tough, necessary conversations.

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Note: For fuller discussions on mental health, racial content in performance, and more, Sean promises future episodes.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. I'm an attorney, I'm an actor, and I'm an advocate. My name is Sean Hayden. When I was wrongfully fired as an actor from a certain famous theater, I fought back. Suddenly I was a whistleblower and I told my story true crime style in a podcast. Since then, I've been telling your stories and having the tough conversations that a lot of people in the entertainment don't want us to have. This is Stage Combat, the podcast. So six months ago, certain little Canadian TV show about gay hockey players dropped and the world has not been the same since. The wildly popular series Heated Rivalry is taking over your TVs and social media. It follows rising Hawking star Shane Hollander and Ilya Rosenoff. The story begins with a secret fling between the two rivals and eventually turns into a years long journey of love, denial and self discovery. People can't stop talking about Heated Rivalry. And with the second series of the shows set to begin filming this summer, doesn't seem like the chatter is going to let up anytime soon. But there is one thing about this cultural phenomenon that is Heated rivalry that I find fascinating. Heated Rivalry has brought forward a very public conversation about how actors portray intimate sex scenes like the ones depicted in the show. And I mean, let's be honest, there was a little bit of nerves going up to that, being like, oh, we're

[B]

gonna have to kiss.

[A]

We haven't kissed, you know what I mean? Like, we're good friends and now we have to kiss. We had a rehearsal day where for a half day we literally just walked through every intimate scene in the script. That's Connor's story, who plays Ilya. I always felt, you know, handled the right sex does have a huge place in storytelling. And with this show we got the benefit of the sex scenes being treated as, you know, deliberately as the conversation scenes almost more because we had rehearsal for them. And that's Hudson Williams who plays Shane. And a lot of the success of Heated Rivalry has to go to the work of Chayla Hunter, intimacy coordinator for the show.

[B]

Like reading the whole script, but certainly reading the simulated sex scenes or any of the intimacy felt like reading music notes. So it's like, okay, this and then this and then this and then this, and it's in this key. And so because of that, I felt like my job was to help just bring that music to life basically and to ensure that the actors were consenting to portray this, you know, that it was within their boundaries.

[A]

So with Intimacy on everyone's mind in this episode, we're talking about Intimacy directors and coordinators and how they help actors bring to life intimate sex scenes on stage and on screen. And we're doing it with some help from renowned intimacy director and friend to this podcast, Nicole Perry.

[B]

This is. The choreography doesn't tell the story. Like, what's the point?

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's what's so good about heated rivalry. Because the first time I watched it with my husband, I was like, oh, damn, there's a lot of sex here. Then when I went back, I was like, oh, wow. Every sex scene, every move was part of the story.

[B]

Because we should always be learning something about the character. Even if what we're learning is, like, who they like to have sex with, how they like to have sex. Like we're learning something about the character.

[A]

And we're answering your questions, the questions you've always wanted to ask about how actors do perform those sex scenes. So we have my mother in law, Carol from Niagara Falls, New York. Hi, Nicole.

[B]

Hi, Carol.

[A]

Okay, Carol, what is your question? Do the actors ever get sexually aroused during a sex scene? Okay, so Carol just. She went right there. Do the actors ever get aroused? I'm Sean Hayden and you're listening to season four of Stage, the podcast. This is episode three, Heated rivalry and how do actors portray sex scenes? Nicole Perry in Miami, Florida. Welcome to stagecompat, the podcast. How are you?

[B]

I am well. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad we're doing this.

[A]

Oh, we go way back. We go way back to you first heard the Goodspeed story and I was like, who is this person posting on TikTok? Like real time commentaries on what you're doing? Yeah, yeah. As an intimacy coordinator, you were making comments and that was. That's how we met. And by the way, everyone, we are talking about intimacy. So I don't know, we may get a little salty language involved in this. Just know it comes from a respectful place. But yeah, just yes.

[B]

Adult language is yes.

[A]

We ask for questions from our listeners and our social media followers about intimacy coordinators and intimacy directors. And the first question is, is there a difference between those two? Because we hear those terms used.

[B]

Yeah, there is and there isn't. In terms of the job that we do at Intimacy Director and Intimacy Coordinator is pretty much the same thing. However, an intimacy director works in live performance, so theater, opera, concert, dance, and an intimacy coordinator works in recorded performance, TV and film.

[A]

I know intimacy directors and coordinators, they can do a myriad of different tasks, but basically the most common function when we're talking about intimacy directors and coordinators

[B]

is what an intimacy director and or coordinator has a scope that always starts with knowing what the story is that we're telling and assisting in telling that story in consent based ways. So going to talk with the director about what the story is, and then we're going to talk with the actors about what their needs are that need to be met, to be able to tell that story confidently and then liaise in between them. And oftentimes a little bit more in the theater live performance world than in the film and TV world that involves choreography, then creating those scenes sort of beat by beat, step by step, so

[A]

the actors aren't just having to wing it, which is what I was forced to do. Playing romantic roles on stage for all of my career. It was just Shawn and then you and this actor you will kiss here. And it was up to me, which is so bizarre to say that out loud now. And I can guarantee you it was not a comfortable thing for me to have to do because there's another person involved.

[B]

It's a very strange thing. And it's the only time we say that, particularly in theater, that we're like, just go for it. And it just boggles my mind that for so many years we were like, I hope you have some experience to draw on and some luck, because it's up to you.

[A]

Yeah, well, look, I think our first question will get to the heart of why intimacy coordinators and directors are so important. And it's the Gwyneth Paltrow question. So someone asked, what do you think about Gwyneth Paltrow's comments about whether an intimacy coordinator was needed on the film Marty Supreme? So this comes from a year ago when she made this is before Marty supreme was out, I guess they had filmed it. And she made comments in Vanity Fair. And, you know, I just have to say this personally. Anything with Gwyneth Paltrow just makes me roll my eyes already because it's the Gwyneth Paltrow of it all. So let me just personally get that out as my human reaction. But anyway, first of all, she goes, there's now something called an intimacy coordinator, which I did not know existed. Really? Gwyneth? Really? You didn't know existed?

[B]

We were under a rock until yes, you never knew.

[A]

And she goes, I was like, this is literally what she said. I was like, girl, I'm from the era where you get naked, get in bed, and the camera's on. And the article says she all but waved off their intimacy coordinator. Quote, we said, I Think we're good. You can step a little bit back. And then she goes, I don't know how it is for kids who are starting out, but if someone is like, okay, then he's going to put his hand here. I would feel as an artist very stifled by that. Okay, Nicole, 100 more things wrong with those comments. Go.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. This actually came up yesterday in a workshop that I was teaching for a theater.

[A]

It did.

[B]

Further day one, the comments of like, I don't need it, so therefore no one needs it. Right. That's bananas.

[A]

It's so arrogant and selfish, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's like it's not just about the one person acting. There are other people in that scene, but then there's a whole crew that is there, that also they. Sometimes people think that my job is like the police and I go to work just to yell at people that are trying to get away with things. And I do not approach my job that way. But I really value having one on one time with the actors ahead of time. Even if it's just a 20 minute phone call, even if it's, I meet them them in our trailer before we're shooting the scene, just to connect as people. So the first time that we are interacting is not that scene where we're supposed to be going to work. And I'm suddenly discovering maybe like somebody doesn't want me there or somebody else does want me there. So I've got some time to negotiate maybe different needs that are happening.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's something really good about what I was hearing from the interviews with the intimacy coordinator for Heated Rivalry is that it looks like there was time with both Connor Story and Hudson William to see what they were comfortable with. And they also had a whole day of just rehearsing and talking through all the sex scenes and the storytelling of it even before they got on set to actually do those scenes.

[B]

Yeah. And in the film world, we don't always get a rehearsal.

[A]

It's a luxury that was something extraordinary that Jacob Tierney, the director, put into place for the show.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I was very lucky in the show that, you know, I have a show coming out from Peacocks soon I don't think I can name because it hasn't been announced that we also had rehearsals for every scene of simulated sex. But that is unusual and that's something that the showrunner really advocated for, that having a rehearsal. And if we couldn't have a full rehearsal because maybe it was on location, so we didn't really have the actual room we would be in or whatever, that we at least got to walk through everything, talk through everything as a group. So there were no surprises. And then also, I think it's important that actors. Actors know that the director and the intimacy coordinator or intimacy director are like on the same page and sharing the same vision. There are times I choreograph beat by beat, moment by moment. This hand goes here, this hand goes here, this hand goes here. But there are also times that I don't do that, that it's more of like a movement score or a container of like during this time, you know, we want the hands on the upper body back so we can see them shaping in the. In the camera. And then we want to see them down after this moment, so they're out of the camera. We think we're going somewhere else. Right. But that's a movement score. That's not a hyper specific. You can only do this beat by beat. There's still space in that for an artist to make their own choices. And I think that's really important. But it's also really important that actors that do want a beat by beat, 5, 6, 7, 8 kind of description that we can also support that.

[A]

See, if I'm an actor in a scene, whether it's on set or on stage, you know, I would want that. I would want that choreography in that direction. Because now I've got confidence to play the scene. I don't have to choreograph something in my head worried about, look, there's another human being on the other side of this touch. Are they going to be okay with this? Am I going to be okay with this? You know, why wouldn't you want that confidence? So that. That said, now I can just play the scene and I know where I'm going with it.

[B]

Yeah, it does give space for play. Right. That I don't have to have part of my brain monitoring my safety or someone else's safety or feelings of safety. I can use my whole self to be this character in this moment. And I know that I've got these frameworks to help protect us, but also that I've got this outside eye that's help protecting not just our physical and emotional safety, but also help protecting the story. This is. The choreography doesn't tell the story. Like, what's. That's the point.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's what's so good about heated rivalry and why people are watching it like two, three, four times. Because the first time I watched it with my husband, I Was like, oh, damn, there's a lot of sex here. But when I saw the whole story and then when I went back, I was like, oh, wow. Every sex scene, every move was part of the story. Like, it was deliberate and it was intentional.

[B]

Because we should always be learning something about the character. Even if what we're learning is, like, who they like to have sex with, how they like to have sex. Like, we're learning something about the character.

[A]

I think this brings us to our next question. Someone said, I read that the intimacy coordinator for Heated Rivalry said Jacob Tierney's scripts were like a roadmap of the sex scenes, and that made her job easier. I guess that's not always the case with the script, is the question.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. And both for better and worse, Right? Like, sometimes the script is hyper specific, and it's like this person is doing this action in this way. And that can be really great for clarity of discussion with an actor. Sometimes directions, like, they kiss, it's not very helpful. But it also leaves it open to interpretation to that director and that intimacy professional. And those actors, things like they have sex. Like, there's a million and one ways to have sex. What does that mean?

[A]

Yeah, and I'm gonna make a generalization. Tell me if you agree with me. But it seems like more so with plays, you're gonna have something very general, like, they begin to have sex as the lights go down. Whereas many times with film, it's been written according to camera shots, shot by shot. Not always, but it seems like that's sort of the distinction between the source materials that I sort of see. You agree?

[B]

Yeah, and often that's true. And, you know, theater, like, it's just harder to mask things, right? Like simulated sex. And theater is hard. It can be done, but it takes a lot of time. You've got to take time and Tech week to, like, sit in every seat in that theater and make sure everybody's getting the same show. Whereas for film, it's much easier because we can tell the audience what to see. We can guide the camera to film, you know, close up of hand on skin or facial reactions or whatever. And so, yes, I think that. That that's true.

[A]

Okay, I got another question for you, Nicole. Are intimacy coordinators legally required on stage productions or film and TV sets?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

No.

[B]

Nope. We sure are not. And part of me is like, that's okay, right? Like, consent also means that people have the ability to make choices, even if I think they should make other choices. That's part of consent. That the choice is there. I have heard rumors that some production insurance companies are asking if you have an Intimacy professional engaged. I have never seen proof of this. It is purely rumor at this point. And I'm also like, so not surprised that the first people interested in making these things kind of requirements are the lawyers and the money people. Well, isn't that disappointed perhaps, that it's the lawyers and the money people? But.

[A]

Well, that's going to go to our next question because that's really the only way things get done, because there's a risk of exposure. So the next question is, why does it feel like Intimacy coordinators suddenly appeared everywhere when they didn't exist 10 years ago?

[B]

Yeah, they didn't exist 10 years ago. Right. Like they. They just simply didn't exist.

[A]

It was the Me Too movement. It was Harvey Weinstein.

[B]

Right. That's certainly part of it. You know, the history of the Intimacy movement is very much in tangent with the MeToo movement, but they're also separate because, you know, Tarana Burke, who's a community activist and feminist, created the MeToo hashtag back in 2006 before it went viral with the MeToo movement and Harvey Weinstein.

[A]

Most people don't know that. I did know that.

[B]

Right. Yeah, yeah. She create about sexual violence that was happening in her community in 2006. At the same time, Tony Cena wrote her master's thesis at VCU about her experience as an Intimacy choreographer. At least the first time that word appears in 2006. These women were on different places in the country and different fields doing different things, but these fields have kind of paralleled each other in that way. And then Tonya actually worked as the first credited Intimacy director at Stratford Shakespeare Festival in 2017 on the Bacchae. And that's the first time we had accredited Intimacy director and theater. And at the same time, Alicia Rodas was the first credited Intimacy coordinator on the Deuce, which came out in 2018. And the Harvey Weinstein scandal exploded in that time. But also these people were already working and were already doing these things.

[A]

Very important to remember those leaders who were on the front line way before the Harvey Weinstein, that MeToo movement, when that happened. And I can just fill in some gaps of how it accelerated with Actors Equity, since people know I talk about Actors Equity a lot. What actually happened was when Kate Schindle was president, they sent letters to 1500 employers, more or less kind of putting them on notice that they demanded that the members of Equity were entitled to a job safe, free of harassment. And Violence and encouraged intimacy coordinators. And this kind of scared the employers from a standpoint with what was happening in the country with MeToo about their potential liability. I mean, I'm very cynical. I'm a lawyer. And I'm always going to say I don't believe corporations and institutions do things out of, oh, it's going to be great for the artist. They're going to do things because they're concerned about their liability and what is the risk to them. And because of that, you started to see, oh, we need to not only have MeToo sexual harassment training on the first day for the cast and crew, but we also need to try to bring in intimacy coordinators. And if I can just get on my soapbox here, Nicole, this shows there is a path to get mental health professionals on production teams, just like intimacy coordinators are around today. Because we didn't have intimacy coordinators and directors 10 years ago. The difference is me too. And Harvey Weinstein was perceived as enough of a crisis for the industry to act on it and start using intimacy directors and coordinators when it comes to mental health and using mental health coordinators on productions. I keep asking the industry, what cris you waiting for in our workplaces? Because I would say that crisis is already here. Okay, that's the end of my soapbox. Okay, we've got. This is an interesting question. Someone said the majority of mainstream sex scenes are hetero. So why are we now so obsessed with how heated rivalry was filmed? Why did it take two men having a safe set for us to consider? Is it homophobia or misogyny? And then in parentheses, no shade to heated rivalry, by the way. What do you think about that?

[B]

No, I think it's toxic masculinity. I think it's toxic masculinity. I think it's the expectation that heteronormative sex in particular is just the way it is and you should just deal with it as we. We've already talked about. And as we've talked about, like, some people don't need an intimacy coordinator, intimacy director, for whatever reason. So I think these two actors have changed that perspective in part because they're men, because they are men, saying, I want to be a good scene partner. I want to put the craft above my own, perhaps my own personal preferences or needs or desires. I want to put the crew and the whole story above perhaps my own personal needs or desires. But I think we have a story in America in particular that only women need intimacy professionals and only young women who, quote, unquote, don't know the industry yet or, you know, don't have experience, haven't been around to toughen up kind of things. And so here comes these two men who are clearly, like, physically powerful. They're playing hockey, right? Like they're strong young men. And they're saying, no, we want an intimacy coordinator. We appreciate our intimacy coordinator. We shout out our intimacy coordinator. We love how it worked with the movement and the storytelling and with creating safety. And I think it is taking that narrative of certain people don't need an intimacy coordinator. And particularly our expectations of men who can just do it and turning it on its head.

[A]

Well, I'm hearing misogyny there, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like, so this has gone on. Women have just been told to. You just get on with it. Right. And I think it took these two good looking and let's also say they're young men. So people feel very protective of them. I mean, you could look at the social media sphere, how protective people are about Connor and Hudson, but it's a shame that they couldn't feel the same about. Let's just take any other young female presenting actor that has always been in the same position in filming and sexy.

[B]

There's an assumption, I think, still in 2026, that the female body is there to be exploited and they should take fame however they can get it. And if that means showing their tits, then they should be grateful for the opportunity.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, I think there's also. Apart from that, because the scenes were so graphic and so numerous from the media standpoint, that got a lot of attention. But I think you're right at the heart of it. It's just good old fashioned American misogyny. Okay, this is a little salty. This next one, this next question. I'm just gonna read it.

[B]

We've had no salt so far.

[A]

Okay. We've had no salt. Sometimes it seems like filmmakers can't even read it with a straight face. Yeah. Okay. All right, let me do it. Sometimes. Okay, see, this is how we deal with this, right? We deal with this with nervous laughter.

[B]

You gotta laugh.

[A]

Sometimes it seems like filmmakers don't know where sex organs are and how they go together. After seeing a particularly egregious example in an episode of White Lotus, I joked I was going to send them an anatomy book with tabs on pages where they can learn where an anus and a penis are. Okay, I know what this person's talking about. This is from the second season set in Italy. And I went back and looked at this Scene. And you know what? He's right. It was a scene where the actor. I think it's Leo Woodall and he's having sex with. You think it's his uncle, but he's not. It's played by Tom Hollander and the positions are wrong. Like there's no way penetration could happen. And it's like you have all this money. White Lotus. And they actually had an intimacy director. Because I read an interview by Leo Woodall. So I don't know what went wrong there.

[B]

Yeah. And we never know because what we see on TV is one take out of the. A bajillion from one particular camera angle that we've had other camera angles. And it's like, did this not get noted between scripty and editing? It's like, we don't want to use this take.

[A]

Or could the actual more accurate take appeared more graphic and this was a compromise. We don't know.

[B]

Or in the actual take. And there's dialogue, the lines got totally flubbed and we only had time for one take. And this is what we got because that's also very real. And I've had that happen to me where I'm like, that is not it. And that's time and money. Says the rat. Yeah, right. So it's like we don't know.

[A]

Yeah, we don't know.

[B]

We all hope for the best.

[A]

I agree with what the person said. It did. Yeah. Look, okay. Anyway.

[B]

Yeah, okay. I do think that that is. Goes back a little bit to the other question about like so many scenes that we see are heteronormative. And so then when we see scenes of queer sex, I think it is really important one that we do them accurately, properly, because there's not as much representation. And so the representation should be excellent.

[A]

I agree. Okay, Nicole, we have questions from. We're going to bring her in because we also wanted questions from just lay people who aren't in the industry, you know, because what's on their mind? So we have my mother in law, Carol, from Niagara Falls, New York. Carol, say hello to Nicole. Hi, Nicole.

[B]

Hi, Carol.

[A]

Okay, Carol, what is your question? Do the actors ever get sexually aroused during a sex scene? Okay, so Carol just. She went right there. Do the actors ever get aroused?

[B]

Yeah, you know, bodies are bodies. Biology happens as it happens. So yeah, our body doesn't really know the difference between.

[A]

It doesn't know the difference. We've talked about this in terms of how our bodies respond in emotional scenes. If you're crying, your body doesn't know the difference and it feels that, you know, those aftershocks of that. So.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And we're using, like our same. That we use the kiss, perhaps our partner, who we love and are attracted to, we use those exact same lips to then kiss our coworker that perhaps they don't really feel anything for besides professional respect. But our body biology does not know the difference. So, yeah, it happens. And we talk about it. And we also talk about ways to, like, deal with that which, you know, it seems of simulated sex. SAG requires barriers, and cloth isn't a barrier. So we have, like, silicone, kind of sort of like a yoga mat kind of piece that goes between actors and things like that, that we. We give them things to help support them. But sometimes it's a matter of like, hey, we need to go take a walk and move the blood. And, you know, Chelsea Pace always talks about push ups being one that they like to recommend. Just like, just move that blood somewhere else. Because we can't always control how our body reacts to things because you have a normal, healthy body, and that's good. So we just have to give you tools to support you.

[A]

Yeah. But with the right person as part of the team, then we can decide how we're going to deal with it in a way that's respectful and doesn't pose a threat to anybody and can maybe also minimize the embarrassment to the person that's happening to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Carol, did that answer your question? Sure. I just always wondered about that. Okay. Do you have another question for Nicole?

[B]

I do.

[A]

My next question is when actors are kissing, sometimes it's very graphic and you can see them using tongue. Is somebody telling them to do that or is that just. Are they just doing it that way because that's what they're feeling like doing? I'm sorry.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

These are. I'm sorry. I'm just. I. But that's my question. I can't help it. The questions are. No, these. These are good questions, Carol. I just didn't expect them to come from you. But really, I'm sure you're. I'm sure this is a question everyone listening is probably. It has occurred to them at some point. Nicole, what do you think about that question? What's your answer?

[B]

Yeah, and that is part of my conversations I usually have with the director when I meet with them, whether it's for film or theater, like this kiss. Do you need to see Tom? And sometimes we do for whatever reason, like, we want the camera to see it, or we're in a Black box theater in the round, that the audience is right there on top of you and we want to see it. Sometimes we do, but often it's not a requirement that directors are looking for. And so then I'll tell the actors that when we have our conversation of, like, this kiss, we will choreograph it, but we're expecting, and I like to give them the heads up in the one on one conversation so they have time to process that not in front of each other. I'm just like, we're expecting this kiss to be open mouth, no tongue, because we don't need to see the tongue, so we don't need to use the tongue is what I always say. And if the director has said, you know, I think we really do need to see it for this shot, for in this scene, then that's part of the conversation with the actors too, is, you know, this kiss is going to have tongue. You know, if the director said that they would like to see tongue in a kiss. And when I go to the actors, I share that as part of the director's vision and they can share their needs and boundaries around having tongues in kissing. And I always make sure that there's mouthwash and we can limit the number of takes and that we're clear on the story if we're going to use the tongue that actors at least know why.

[A]

Why? Yeah. Okay, good. All right, Carol, you have one more question. I do. Are actors ever repulsed by the person that they're doing a sex scene with? I'll answer that. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, real, real life. And like, also, it's called acting only. Yeah. Like, we have people of all genders and sexualities playing in roles that call for them to act all different sexualities.

[A]

I'll say this when I have felt repulse is such a strong word, Carol.

[B]

It is a strong word.

[A]

Strong word, Carol. So we're going to call you out on that word. It's really been. Because it's not been a very nice person on the other side, rather than something physically about the person. And then that's just where, you know, that's just being an actor and whatever you have to do, substitution or whatever you need to do to get through that, because you don't want to have to just disassociate, because I don't think that's healthy. But that's where you have to kind of know your craft and how you're going. How you're going to negotiate that to. To get that scene, you know, up and running. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And this happens, I guess, maybe more in theater than in film, at least for me. But it's a conversation that I have with directors as they're crafting audition notices of, like, we need to say, in an audition notice, character A has on stage intimacy with character B, which includes kissing, if those are the expectations. So the people you get in the room are interested in that. Because if character A is required to kiss character B, and they're the same gender, but the actor cast in that has decided that they cannot kiss someone of their own same gender, that's maybe their religious boundary, but it's now a bias against another person, because a boundary can only be about me and myself, and a bias is against somebody else. So that comes up, I think, more in theater than in film, because I can be involved in those casting notices. And, like, let's make sure we get the people involved in this project that are not going to truly sink it by being harmful with their ideas of who they can and cannot have onstage intimacy with. So it's much easier to say from the beginning, like, I'm not going to audition for something that doesn't fit into my perspective, or, like, I don't want to do on stage kissing, period. That's a boundary I can uphold. If you come to me and you're like, I don't want to kiss this person, but I will kiss this person, that's not a boundary that I can help you uphold.

[A]

But there's also an obligation for the actor to do some research. And this is easier if it's not a new work. But, look, if you're going out for this show and you know it's a love story, and there's plenty of productions out on it on YouTube, you can probably get the script and read it. You know, that's on you. You need to do your research and know what you're going in for and make sure that this is the type of content you want to participate in.

[B]

And you can ask in auditions and callbacks if it's not clear, like, what is the director's vision of the onstage intimacy that happens between these characters? Is there an intimacy professional engaged in these things, especially if those things will help you make your decision about whether or not this show is right for you.

[A]

Yeah. And if you've got an agent, that's a really good way to get your agent to do something is to have your agent put in a call and ask those questions. Nicole?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Carol, those are great questions. Thanks for calling them in. You're welcome. Okay. Bye. Go call your son. Go call Ian.

[B]

Thank you, Carol.

[A]

Okey doke. Yeah, she just really went there. But good questions, though. You hear these questions all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's what people are asking on the street when I sit down on an airplane and people are like, what do you do? At least one of those comes up.

[A]

They want to know about the tongue. Apparently so.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay, Nicole, look, we've only scratched the surface. There are so many things that Intimacy directors and coordinators can do in terms of sensitive content, racially charged content, what they can do with audiences. I mean, they really play a really vital role that goes just beyond. We've kind of focused on the actual choreographing of, you know, intimate scenes. And so we'll just have to save that for another conversation. But I hope everyone got something out of this. Whether you work in the industry or you're just curious about, you know, the actors that you watch on stage and on screen every day.

[B]

Thank you, Sean, for having this conversation and for being so honest and vulnerable and asking the hard questions.

[A]

You can follow Nicole Perry on social media at Intimacy Choreo fl. By the way, if you're listening and you are a dance or movement educator, Nicole has a great new book out. She wrote called Careful Creativity in Theater and Dance Education. Consent Forward Trauma Informed Psychologically Safe Movement Pedagogy. Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat, the podcast. Five years ago, mega film and Broadway producer Scott Rudin was canceled after a blistering expose in the Hollywood Reporter shocked the industry with allegations of Rudin's abusive behavior towards his assistants. The allegations included reports of him throwing things at them, such as a stapler, a glass bowl, and even a computer monitor, which sent an employee to the er. Now Rudin is back on Broadway with the revival of Death of a Salesman, starring Laurie Metcalfe and Nathan Lane. We're asking the question, should Rudin be welcomed back? And we're getting some answers from clinical psychologist and friend to the podcast, Dr. Alisa Hurwitz. Chances are he's redeemable. Theoretically. Yeah. Doing that is a whole different thing. Reading his apology, I think it was in the Times article. It write in Hollow. To me, I think a lot of people are feeling that way. Alisa, I want to put my finger on what it is. Go for it. Redemption comes through action. You can't just say it if you're not also dedicated to showing it. And part of saying it is telling people who were impacted by this how you are going to take action to make amends. That's coming up. Cancel Culture and Scott Rudin's Return to Broadway. So what did you think of my conversation with Nicole Perry? You may not agree with everything we had to say, and that's okay. Just let us know your thoughts. Follow us at Instagram @StageCombatthePodcast IG where you can send us a DM and also comment on our social media. You can also email [e-mail] you can hear bonus content and more of my conversation with Nicole Perry, plus insider information about this episode at StageCombat at Patreon. Just follow the link in the show notes. If you believe in the meaningful content we are producing for you, you can support us for just $5 a month so we can produce more episodes for you. And there's no commitment. Isn't that great? You can enjoy the bonus content you want to explore for a month or maybe three months or throughout the year. And if you are an existing Patreon member, thank you you for making this podcast happen. This episode was edited by Alex Griffith. Mixing and sound design were by Justin Garish. This episode was written and directed by me, Sean Hayden for Heywood Productions llc. Be sure to hit follow on your podcast platform do it right now so you don't miss a single episode of Stage Combat. And while you're there, why not rate us five stars and leave us a review so you can let others know what Stage Combat means to you. I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions llc.