"Return to Roanoke Island"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast Episode 7: "Return to Roanoke Island" Release Date: June 15, 2026 Host: Sean Hayden Guests: Court Watson & Michael Martin

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Overview

This episode of Stage Combat the Podcast re-examines harrowing allegations of sexual harassment and assault in the American theater, specifically focusing on events at the Lost Colony outdoor theater production on Roanoke Island. Host Sean Hayden reconvenes with former employee and previous guest Court Watson, and introduces Michael Martin—both of whom have made public allegations against Tony Award-winning costume designer William Ivey Long. With Long rumored to be making an uncredited return to Broadway, the discussion explores the cultural aftermath of such allegations, the industry's response, and how survivors reclaim power and agency. The episode highlights the pervasive issues of workplace abuse in entertainment, community complicity, and the challenges survivors face in speaking out.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Background and Allegations (00:04–06:09)

• Setting the Stage:

  • Sean Hayden recounts his own experience as a fired actor-turned-whistleblower exposing industry abuses.
  • Recaps previous episodes featuring Court Watson (the "Court Watson Story" parts 1 & 2), who at 20 was a costume designer at the iconic "Lost Colony" summer theater, mentored by William Ivey Long.

• The Environment at Lost Colony:

  • Court Watson describes an unsettling workplace culture, rife with inappropriate behavior.
  • Notably, William Ivey Long allegedly told staff,

    "There is no such thing as sexual harassment in the American theater. No jury would ever convict someone... because we're all pimps and whores."
    (Court quoting Long, 02:41)

  • Court recounts an incident at Long's house after being offered a coffee table book at a party:

    "He exposed himself to me. He undid his fly and pulled out his genitals...He undressed me. We got into bed together. And at that point, my memories blink in and out."
    (Court, 04:52–05:24)

• Buzzfeed Article & Michael Martin's Story:

  • Hayden contextualizes a 2018 Buzzfeed article where Michael Martin, another Lost Colony employee, alleged repetitive inappropriate touching by Long, including public praise while secretly groping him.
  • Martin claims rebuffing Long led to workplace retaliation and public humiliation.

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William Ivey Long's Quiet Return to Broadway (09:39–11:25)

• Sean raises Long's recent uncredited work on Queen of Versailles:
  • Court Watson:

    "Utterly revolted...I found that disgusting and unsettling."
    (Court, 10:02)

  • Michael Martin:

    "I have the luxury of kind of just like standing back from a distance and shaking my head... It's like, well, I guess this is just how the business works."
    (Michael, 10:39)

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Survivors Finding Each Other & Shared Experience (11:25–12:51)

• Court's Discovery of Michael:
  • Found Michael's blog ("Pifolk") and reached out after deciding to go public.

• First Contact:

  "We both cried. It was almost this sense of couldn't believe what was happening. That there was actually like a voice that was like, no, I believe you. This happened to me too."
  (Michael, 11:59–12:13)

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The Culture of Bullying, Harassment, and Complicity (13:12–18:02)

• Atmosphere at Lost Colony:
  • Michael describes Long as having a "scary reputation" for public tirades and demeaning comments:

    "He will have tantrums, he will get angry, he will yell, and he may even throw things...The implication was you stomach it and you get the benefits of working with a genius."
    (Michael, 13:14–13:45)

• Progression of Abuse:
  • Physical contact began as seemingly innocent gestures, escalating into touching and groping.
  • Michael adjusted his clothing (buying a belt, changing behavior) to manage Long's advances:

    "I went to a thrift store and bought a belt so that I could, like, tight… have a tighter belt to wear with my cutoff shorts."
    (Michael, 15:20)

• Workplace Retaliation:
  • After Michael rebuffed Long, he was singled out for public discipline and props were thrown at him:

    "I went from being the golden boy and the new talent to just being kind of a company scapegoat for a while."
    (Michael, 26:15)

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Reclaiming Agency and Artistic Identity (18:45–24:41)

• Mentorship and Loss:
  • Michael laments the damaging impact on his relationship to the profession:

    "Because of my relationship with William Ivy Long, I was always on guard with those conversations...It kind of tainted things for me."
    (Michael, 18:50)

  • Michael discusses finding agency through self-produced, self-written work in theater, improv, and his own sexuality blog.
• Sex Shaming and Defense Tactics:
  • Both Watson and Martin describe being attacked for their artistic expressions (nude drawings, sexually open blogs) as a means to discredit their victimhood:

    "It's wild to me...part of what I have done and what my therapist calls post traumatic growth is being tried to use as a way to make my story be taken less seriously."
    (Court, 24:09)

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Industry Silence, Power Dynamics, and #MeToo's Limits (28:20–37:45)

• The Industry's Response:
  • The secrecy surrounding Long’s recent work signifies industry complicity; contrast with public acceptance of Scott Rudin’s return.

    "If you let someone work on a show uncredited...it starts to desensitize: Well, maybe it wasn't so bad what Mr. Long did."
    (Sean, 29:27)

  • The lack of collective protest or open letters about Long’s return signals acceptance or forgetfulness.
• Why Some Stories Remain Untold:
  • Not being a "star" lets some perpetrators "fly under the radar."

    "If you were a star…this story would already have been told."
    (Michael, 30:40)

• Cultural Stigma Around Male and Queer Survivors:
  • Persistent notion that men—especially gay men—can't be abused or that discussing abuse harms the industry:

    "There is this ancient, literally byzantine notion that theater people have loose morals."
    (Court, 33:29) "We're all pimps and whores." (Echoing Long's infamous remark, 33:42)

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Reflections & Hope for Change (38:55–40:30)

• Progress and the Next Generation:

  • Michael expresses hope for change through younger generations less tolerant of abuse:

    "A younger generation will be a lot more sensitive to these type of issues…It's just sort of the dying gasp of a theater dinosaur."
    (Michael, 38:55)

  • "I'm heartened with the engagement that I have with my undergraduate students…They have an activist streak that did not exist in our generation."
    (Court, 39:47)

• Final Words:

  • Sean commends both guests for their courage in sharing their stories and promoting safer, more empowered creative spaces.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Culture of Theater:

  • "There is no such thing as sexual harassment in the American theater. ...we're all pimps and whores." (Long via Court, 02:41)

• On Workplace Abuse:

  • "He could just...grab your butt ...the level of inappropriateness was completely dependent, usually on, like, who was around." (Michael, 15:38)

• On Agency and Healing:

  • "It was me deciding who and in what context my body was shown." (Michael, 20:59)

  • "What my therapist calls post traumatic growth is being tried to use as a way to make my story be taken less seriously." (Court, 24:09)

• On Industry Complicity:

  • "You get off Scot free." (Court, 30:39)

  • "The public has a hunger to hear about stars... the fact that William is a designer has let him fly under the radar." (Michael, 30:40)

• On the Need for Change:

  • "We're not trying to set up a situation where it's like, oh, my God, can you believe it? This Tony Award winner took advantage of people...It's that we actually think that there is a commonality here." (Michael, 38:01)

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Selected Timestamps

• (02:41): Alleged quote from William Ivey Long about harassment in theater.
• (04:52–05:24): Court Watson’s detailed recounting of the alleged sexual assault.
• (10:02, 10:39): Reactions from Court and Michael to Long’s secret Broadway comeback.
• (13:14–13:45): Michael describes Long’s bullying reputation.
• (15:20): Michael buys a belt to deter Long’s advances.
• (18:45–21:02): Michael and Court discuss reclaiming agency after trauma.
• (24:09): Discussion on weaponizing survivors’ artistic expression.
• (26:15–26:43): Workplace retaliation against Michael.
• (28:20, 29:27): Conversation on secrets, industry complicity, and desensitization.
• (33:29–33:42): Cultural resistance to acknowledging abuse among men in theater.
• (38:55, 39:47): Optimism for change with the rising generation.

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Conclusion

This powerful episode gives voice to two survivors whose accounts underscore both the persistence of abusive power structures and the difficulty of challenging well-connected figures in theater. Honest, raw, and reflective, it calls attention to the work still needed—from structural industry changes to a cultural reckoning about accountability, agency, and the true meaning of workplace safety and respect.

For resources and bonus content, listeners are directed to the show notes and Stage Combat's Patreon.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

I'm an attorney, I'm an actor and I'm an advocate. My name is Sean Hayden. When I was wrongfully fired as an actor from a certain famous theater, I fought back. Suddenly I was a whistleblower and I told my story true crime style in a podcast. Since then I've been telling your stories and having the tough conversations that a lot of people in the entertainment we don't want us to have. This is Stage Combat the Podcast. This episode contains content of allegations of sexual harassment and sexual assault. Please proceed with caution if those topics are triggering for you. You can also check the show notes for resources for help for anyone who has experienced a sexual assault. The attorneys for William Ivy Long and the Roanoke Island Historical association and have previously denied the allegations made in this episode by Court Watson and Michael Martin. So one of our most provocative stories of the podcast last season was the story of Court Watson. We told that in two episodes called the Court Watson story parts one and two. During the early 2000s, Court Watson was a 20 year old college student working at the iconic outdoor summer theater production. It's called the Lost Colony and it takes place on Roanoke island just off the coast of North Carolina. The Lost Colony at that time was also renowned for having as its designer the Tony Award winning costume designer William Ivy Long. At that time, Long was known for his iconic costume designs for the revival of Cabaret, which starred Alan Cumming and the sultry costumes of the revival of Chicago the Musical, which is still running today. Cort Watson was an inspiring costume designer and he was thrilled to be working on Roanoke Island. But as Corr told us in his episodes, as he started working at the Lost Colony, he found the work environment very unsettling.

[A]

One of the members of the costume shop staff had been experiencing unwanted sexual overtures that made him very uncomfortable.

[B]

By whom?

[A]

By one of Long's associates.

[B]

And then what happened in the meeting?

[A]

We were called into the executive director's office and Mr. Long said to us there is no such thing as sexual harassment in the American theater. And he went on to say that no jury would ever convict someone of sexual harassment who worked in the theater because we're all pimps and whores.

[B]

He said that.

[A]

He said that.

[B]

But it would be during Quart's third year of working at the Lost Colony on Roanoke island that his life would change forever after what he says was an encounter with with William Ivy Long. Court told us he was at a party and Long offered to give him an expensive coffee table book which Long said was at his house here's an excerpt from that story that Court told us last year. And just a warning, some of you might find this content disturbing once you receive this invitation from Mr. Long. What do you recall about your state of intoxication at that point?

[A]

At that point, I'd already had three drinks and I probably was not making the best choices to go back to his home with him.

[B]

Would three drinks at that time have been enough to make you intoxicated?

[A]

Yeah. I didn't have a whole lot of exposure to underage drinking in my college experience, and that was something that was far more common at the Lost colony.

[B]

Where was Mr. Long's home?

[A]

Down the block, an easy five minute walk. What I was imagining was going to happen was that I'd walk down the block, receive this copy of the book, and come back to the party, have a cup of coffee, and then go home.

[B]

And then what happens next?

[A]

He walked me back to his house. We sat on the front porch. He went inside to make me another drink that I don't recall asking for and came back out onto the front porch. The reason we were sitting on the front porch was because his sister with developmental disabilities and an elderly nurse were both long asleep in the house.

[B]

And do you take the drink?

[A]

I do. And I drank it.

[B]

And what happens next? On the porch?

[A]

He exposed himself to me. He undid his fly and pulled out his genitals.

[B]

And then what do you recall happening after that, Court?

[A]

I remember being frozen. It was a situation I did not ask to be part of. It was not a situation I was in any way competent to consent to it continuing. And he opened the door and bodily walked me into the house, told me to be very quiet and walked me up the stairs to his bedroom.

[B]

And what happens next?

[A]

He undressed me. We got into bed together. And at that point, my memories blink in and out.

[B]

Because of your intoxication or something else?

[A]

Because of my intoxication, because of a trauma response to what was happening that was well out of my control, that I had not consented to.

[B]

So of the memories that you have of this incident, what do you recall?

[A]

I remember him saying that we should use a rubber. And I remember once it was over, getting my clothes on as quickly as I could in some disheveled way, and going back down the stairs as fast as I could and stumbling back to Norma Mills house.

[B]

In Kord's episodes, we then flashed forward to the year 2018. The MeToo movement had been in full bloom for a year, and the media outlet Buzzfeed published an article about William Ivey Long. It was called the Broadway Legend, the College Student and the Harassment that Still Stings Today. Only the college student in the buzzfeed article was not Court Watson. He was another former employee of the Lost Colony named Michael Martin. Here's how we described that article in Quartz episodes last season. The buzzfeed article is published and tells Michael Martin's story of his employment at the Lost as a prop assistant while he was a college student. Martin alleges during that time, William Ivy Long inappropriately touched him approximately 10 times. These incidents would range from Long tugging at Martin's underwear band to Long sliding his hand into Martin's pants. Martin recalls occasions when Long would have his left hand inside the back of Martin's pants, while Long would simultaneously be using his right hand to gesture and praise Martin's work in front of other crew members. And while this was happening, the crew was unaware of what Long's left hand was doing. Martin claims that once he rebuffed Long's frequent invitations to join him for dinner, Long started treating him differently in the workplace. Long would scold him in front of the crew and at one point even threw props at him. William Ivy Long denied these allegations, and it was these two men coming forward with their stories. Michael Martin in 2018 and Court Watson two years later after hearing Michael Martin's story that caused William Ivey Long to withdraw from the Broadway production of Diana The Musical in 2020. And William Ivy Long seemed to disappear from the Broadway scene until this past Broadway season because the worst kept secret on Broadway was that Long had been hired by the producers of the Queen of Versailles on Broadway. That was the Kristin Chenoweth megaflop. He was hired to work unaccredited on Kristin Chenoweth's costumes. Many have speculated that Long's work on the Queen of Versailles was perhaps the start of Long's crawl back to Broadway. So in light of Long's return to Broadway this past season, maybe it's time for us to return to Roanoke island and see what Court Watson thinks about all of this. And for the first time on this podcast, let's see what Michael Martin thinks, the actor who was identified in the buzzfeed article. I'm Sean Hayden and you're listening to season four of Stage Combat, the podcast. This is episode seven, Return to Roanoke Island. Court Watson and Michael Martin, welcome to Stage Combat, the podcast.

[A]

Thanks Sean.

[B]

Thank you, Court and Michael, I think my first question that I'd like to ask you is what was your reaction when you heard that William Ivy Long, in some capacity, had been working on the costumes for the Queen of Versailles on Broadway this past season. And Court, let's start with you.

[A]

Utterly revolted. And I can tell you a little bit about how I heard that news. Several friends in the industry called me and asked if we could speak. And when it's a call like that, you know, it's something that they either don't want to put in writing or they're concerned about your well being. So I sat down and had coffee with one of my friends. He told me he'd gotten some distressing news and that was the news that he was going to be stepping in to redo, at minimum, Kristin Chenoweth's clothes for Queen of Versailles. And I found that disgusting and unsettling.

[B]

And Michael, what was your response when

[C]

you heard I'm in la, you know, I'm not. I'm not working in Broadway costume shops. And so I have the luxury of kind of just like standing back from a distance and shaking my head and going, well, I guess this means that like, people aren't really taking it seriously or if, if they are taking it seriously only to the extent, extent that public opinion takes it seriously, not from like an actual moral judgment on their own part, but more like, oh, we can't get away with saying publicly that William is working on this show, so we're just gonna hire him under the table, that kind of thing. And it's just sort of like contributes to a feeling of like a little bit of disgust, you know, like, it's like, well, I guess this is just how the business works.

[B]

So when did you guys learn of each other since you didn't work together at Roanoke Island?

[A]

After I had decided to start speaking with the press and several false starts there, I did a little Internet researching on Michael Martin and I found Pifolk, his blog. And I reached out to Michael and said, you don't know me, but I'm writing this thing and I would love for it to not be a surprise to you when it comes out.

[C]

Yeah, we had a phone call and it felt like some sort of an emotional watershed for me, you know, because it was.

[A]

We both cried.

[C]

Yeah, both of us cried. And I think both of us were just acknowledging the reality that it was almost this sense of couldn't believe what was happening. That there was actually like a voice that was like, no, I believe you. This happened to me too.

[B]

So when we were preparing Court story, Michael, I reached out to you.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And we chatted because I wanted to let you know that we would be mentioning the buzzfeed article and the allegations in the buzzfeed article that you had made against Long. So what was your reaction when you listened to Court's episodes once they aired?

[C]

My heart just went out for him. I don't know. Like, I. Like, I already knew that it had happened. And I thought when I listened to it, I was like, all right, well, this will just be like rereading a story I've already heard. But it really affected me in a way that was really evocative in the moment.

[B]

Court, if you could just stay with us, I want to ask Michael about his experience on Roanoke Island. Michael, in the buzzfeed article, you described arriving as a college student at the Lost Colony as a dream come true, but you also recognized Long to be what you described as a scary man.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What did you mean by that?

[C]

First of all, he had a scary reputation. Just that the atmosphere was that they prepped you. They were like, listen, he will have tantrums, he will get angry, he will yell, and he may even throw things. And that is to be expected. He's going to say demeaning things. He's going to insult you, he'll insult your intelligence, he'll insult your talent level, he'll insult your sensibilities. And then the implication was you stomach it and you get the benefits of working with a genius.

[B]

I mean, what's interesting about the situation you two guys were in is that we're talking about two different things. We're talking about a workplace bullying situation, the type that Scott Rudin was run out of Broadway for throwing things at people, but apparently he's back. And then we're also talking about how sexually forward Long would be with you, Michael.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

How would you describe that?

[C]

Well, I mean, I think it started with the atmosphere.

[B]

And what do you mean by the atmosphere?

[C]

William would start by commenting on the bodies of the dancers and who's hot among the actor technicians and who's sexy among the leads and all that. And then there would be other weird sort of lecherous moments. I remember there was, like, a time when he was like, it's a beautiful day. And then he made this sort of bizarre eye contact with me and was, like, stunning. That was before any of the touching happened. But I was like, oh, this guy is like, this is his way of flirting, right?

[B]

And then how did the touching evolve, Michael?

[C]

It started with, like, just grabbing the elbow or, like, come over here. He would grab you by the elbow, and then suddenly his hand is on your should and Then it travels down into your back, and then it's on the small of your back. And then suddenly, like, he was hooking his finger into the back of my waistband and my underwear. And I went to a thrift store and bought a belt so that I could, like, tight. Have a tighter belt to wear with my cutoff shorts.

[B]

So you. Wait, can I stop you there? So you. You literally felt you had to go get a belt so you could tighten your waistband to prevent him from slipping his fingers in to your pants, Right?

[C]

That's what I'm saying. Yes.

[B]

And did that stop it?

[C]

No, I mean, it. It didn't stop it. I mean, like, he could just, like, would grab your butt, like, outside the pants, or he would. Like, he. The level of inappropriateness was completely dependent, usually on, like, who was around. First of all, I learned not to be alone in the costume shop with him or not to be alone backstage with him. If you were alone with him, the handsiness was just out of control.

[B]

I want to ask you about one of the stories in the Buzzfeed article, Michael, where you describe having made for Mr. Long and the production. I believe they were supposed to be gifts that the Native American children would have made for the settlers.

[C]

Yeah, we renovated the entire props department that year, and one of the showpieces of that was this basket of gifts. There was a monarch butterfly, and there was a Native American doll. And just he was praising me on how well it was executed and the level of detail and the color scheme and things like that. And I remember he was pointing with his right hand, pointing out the details of it while he was sliding his left hand down the back of my pants.

[B]

And by the back of your pants, you mean his hand going inside your pants?

[C]

Yeah, his hand slipped down through my waistband, underneath my underwear, into, like, into my ass.

[B]

Yeah. And how did that make you feel, Michael?

[C]

Powerless. Like, I had no control over what was going on. And it just sort of reinforced this idea in my head that the mentorship, the encouragement, the design lessons, they all came at the price of my own sexuality. Also that, like, it took a moment where I really should have felt the value of the work that I had contributed to the production. And I should have felt like I had achieve something as a designer, as an artist, and it. It sort of invalidated that it was gross.

[B]

Michael, if we can just stay with you a moment, I want to share a quote that you shared in the Buzzfeed article. The interviewer asked you, what did you think Long wanted from you? And you said, can I say what I hope he wanted. I thought maybe he thought it was smart and realized that I was a good storyteller and a talented actor and really good at production design and set painting and props painting. I thought maybe he was taking a shine to me and was going to mentor me in New York. And I thought maybe there's more to life than just gross animal instincts that you see the possibility of brilliance and you can foster that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Tough to hear again.

[C]

Yeah, I think so. I really wish that I had been able to preserve that sort of idealistic attitude from my youth a little longer than I. Than I had been able to. I really wish that I. That he hadn't boiled it down to something transactional. And I won't say that it was the only time that I encountered that in show business. But because of my relationship with William Ivy Long, I was always on guard with those conversations, and I was always arm's length. It would put me in fight, flight, or freeze, like, oh, God, that's happening again. And it. It kind of tainted things for me. It. It sucked. Right. Because, like, I could never really accept mentorship after that from a gay man.

[B]

Well, it had quite an effect on you and your joy of theater. Right. You said in buzzfeed, if I survive this, I don't know that I'll ever be able to have joy in theater again.

[C]

I want to clarify. That is how I felt at the time, and I do think that I did carry that feeling with me for a number of years. But I also want to add that I did find joy in theater again. I wouldn't have done theater for 15 more years in New York if I didn't find it joyful. I will say that I gravitated towards situations and scenarios where I had a lot more agency and how I was portrayed and what I said. So, like, for me, it was like, oh, I want to write a show that I star in because I want to control how my character is portrayed, or I want to do comedy because I want to say the things I want to say or I want to do improv, because we have to sort of operate under the umbrella of compassion and mutual support in order for it to work. So I gravitated toward spheres where that kind of empathy and that kind of respect for the human condition was rewarded. Right. Even in the context of me showing myself in a more sexual manner on my blog, it was me deciding that. It was me deciding who and in what context my body was shown.

[A]

Reclaiming your own agency.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think court has aspects of that in his design career and in his drawings as well. And I will say, you have to sort of go through this conundrum with yourself where it's like. And people will challenge you on it all the time. They'll be like, how could you be a figure of the MeToo movement and have this blog that is, like, all about gay male sexuality? And it's like, well, I don't know about you, but I'm a hundred different things in the course of a day.

[B]

Well, can we just deal with that right now? I want to deal with that right now. Because this was something that when we were telling court story that we reached out to Long's attorney, and they literally sent us 38 drawings of quartz work, which are nude drawings, as to somehow say, there's no way he could be a victim because he draws nude men. And in the same way, I know that either Long or through his attorneys, publicly attacked you because you had a blog where you were in different states of undress. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, the idea that this is how they choose to respond I find shocking in this day and age. And I can only assume that both of you view that as sex shaming.

[A]

Yeah. The credence of homophobia.

[C]

It's almost like it's the ethos of the homosexual boomer.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, so let's acknowledge Long is what, his 70s?

[C]

Yeah. I think he's like a year older than my parents, which makes him like, 78.

[B]

The ethos of the homosexual boomer. Yeah.

[A]

There's this idea that you couldn't be in a community space that was led with empowerment and consent and leading with consent.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I run at least two community figure drawing groups a week for at least a dozen people. And they're very welcoming rooms. And the model's in charge. The model is the most powerful person in the room. And the way that I try to be the same consistent human being, whether I'm in a figure drawing space or in a theatrical design space, I use professional intimacy guidelines. I use professional fitting room etiquette. Whenever I'm engaging with anybody where there might be a perceived imbalance of power, I want to make sure that the person who may be perceived to have the least power in the room feels like they are comfortable and safe and can be themselves.

[B]

You know, I think this is really, really interesting because there is a language that the three of us are familiar with about consent and agency. And it's like there is this idea of this older homosexual man that has Never maybe proceeded with agency, given people agency and consent. Right. And so what other way is there to do but to attack the two of you as that somehow you're. You know, it almost reminds me of the. The nun in doubt trying to find something dirty and inappropriate. Sister Aloysias.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's wild to me. It's really crazy to me that part of what I have done and what my therapist calls post traumatic growth is being tried to use as a way to make my story be taken less seriously. That, to me, is just. It's repugnant. And it's what somebody without a very good defense would depend upon.

[B]

Hi, everyone. Sean here. I just want to take a moment and acknowledge that many of you ask how you can support the important work we do at StageCombat, the podcast. Well, I'm going to tell you, the best way is to become a member at Stage Combat, the podcast at Patreon. You might have noticed we don't make you listen to advertisements. Instead, we rely on support, support of our members. And for just $5 a month, you can be one of those cherished members. The best part is there's no commitment. You can be a member for a month, a few months, or throughout the year. Plus, you get really great exclusive bonus content for our episodes, including extended interviews, plus my Shaun Off Script mini episode where I dive deeper into what you heard in the episode and I give you insight into information about the making of the episode. So you get a lot of cool stuff while also helping us out. We'd love to have you become a member today. Just follow that link in the show notes. And now back to the episode. Michael?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

I want to go back and I want to loop back into your time at Roanoke, because what happens with your story is that you start to rebuff Long and then you note that he begins to become more belligerent, specifically to you in the workplace, Correct?

[C]

It did feel that way, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

After the first couple of invitations to dinner that I kind of ignored or downplayed or just said no to, once it became clear that I was resisting his affections as opposed to capitulating to them, I went from being the golden boy and the new talent to just being kind of a company scapegoat for a while.

[B]

There's an incident you describe of Long throwing props at you.

[C]

Right. The same scene where that included that basket of gifts from the children that I was so well praised for. There were other baskets that came on with different food items. Right. I had taken Some plastic corn that you'd gotten at Michael's or wherever you would get plastic corn. And I had stacked them up into like a little pyramid and wired them into this basket along with some other fruits. And he felt like it was too symmetrical and that it didn't ring true as to like some sort of true life element. And he ripped them out and told me that I was like an idiot and that nobody would ever do this this way. And he threw the corn at me. And it was terrifying to watch because it was like the. The emotional texture of a nine year old having a tantrum. If that nine year old had control over an entire production and everyone was terrified of the nine year old. Unfortunately, we've all been desensitized to that because I feel like we have a similar type of narcissistic personality running the country now. So, like we're all sort of like constantly being gaslit and emotionally abused.

[A]

It does feel familiar.

[C]

It does.

[B]

Well, let's talk about that. I wonder how much of it. It can't be a coincidence that in the same season you've got Long back on a show. Scott Rudin producing again. These men had to be saying, if we've got a narcissist in the White House and we have different predators, different bullies, either being pardoned or being rewarded, why am I sitting on the sidelines?

[A]

Yeah. You know what's interesting about that, Sean? The tell is that at least with some of these known predators, it has to be done under the table. That's how they know that their hope that people have forgotten or that people don't care. It's not that people didn't hear and don't believe. They either don't care or they think they've forgotten.

[B]

Well, I think there is a distinction. If you've got Scott Rudin producing the play, everyone knows about it. Laurie Metcalf has signed up for that.

[A]

I'm so disappointed in her. And Nathan Lane. I'm so disappointed in them both.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of people are. But let's be clear about the Queen of Versailles. They kept that secret that Long was working with them. And I know of an account of someone who was involved with video photography, other rehearsals, and was explicitly told that they could not take any recordings or photos of Mr. Long. So there was an intentional design to keep that secret. Although, as I've said, it was the worst kept secret on Broadway because they

[A]

don't want the worst kept secret to be out.

[B]

But you know, if you let someone work on a show uncredited and Then it sort of filters through the industry. It starts to desensitize. Well, maybe it wasn't so bad what Mr. Long did or what he was supposed to be held accountable for. So maybe the next show we do hire him because, you know, hey, I didn't see the letter with 500 Broadway people protesting that he had been hired by the Queen of Versailles like they did with, if you recall, the Patti LuPone incident. An article came out where she said bad things about Audra McDonald and 500 Broadway performers signed onto a letter protesting that, you know, there was similarly a letter where 2,400 people signed a protest letter because they didn't like how the Broadway show, maybe Happy Ending, was recast. So where was the letter about Long?

[A]

Yeah, to my knowledge, no one has circulated a letter asking for that.

[B]

If I'm a producer, I would think, you know what, maybe this is blown over. You know, nothing happened, and everyone knew he was working on the Queen of Versailles.

[A]

You get off Scot free.

[C]

Scott Rudinfree One of the difficult elements that Adam Vary, who wrote the buzzfeed article, explained to me when we were collaborating on it was that he was like, the public has a hunger to hear about stars and directors and to a lesser extent, writers. And he was like, the fact that William is a designer has let him fly under the radar for many, many years. So these things are working against us. The fact that it's theater, that it's not movie or television, that. So it's not a global thing. It's more New York focused and centered. Basically, he said, if you were a star in your own right, Michael, if you were a Broadway star or if he was a Broadway star or a Broadway director, this story would already have been told. This story would already have been vetted. We wouldn't have to argue back and forth with editors about whether or not it's appropriate for the time of the now, this type of thing.

[B]

Well, I think you're right, Michael. I think because Patti LuPone was a star, that's why that got so much traction versus we told Court story. We told stories about certain people involved with Wicked. You know, that was our most popular episode, and I didn't see anyone up in arms against Wicked. Whether or not the person was no longer there or the current producers or anything, or kind of demanding, hey, what are you going to do now? There was no uproar because the people we told the stories about, they weren't stars.

[C]

Right. This also brings to mind something that my therapist said, like a metaphor that my therapist Made, which was that he was like, if you're driving on the highway and you drive by a 10 car pileup, he was like, there's a certain percentage of people that will drive by and go to themselves, oh, what a shame. What a terrible loss of life. That's awful. There's another very much smaller percentage of people that might stop their car and help with the accident. And of those people amongst that small percentage, there's even a smaller percentage of people that will then endeavor to try to change the speed limit.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Does that make any sense?

[B]

It makes total sense. I want to add another element to this and Court, you and I talked about this in your episodes because when I was telling a few people about us doing this episode, I'm still sensing, to my surprise, coming even from gay men here in New York, that there is still this resistance of accepting that gay men can be sexually harassed and. And can be sexually assaulted. There's this prejudice that I still find shocking.

[A]

Yeah. And especially involving theater people. There is this, and we've discussed this before, there's this ancient, literally byzantine notion that theater people have loose morals.

[B]

Well, it's the pimps and whores comment, right?

[A]

Court, there's no such thing as sexual harassment in the American theater. We're all pimps and whores.

[B]

You know, I thought the thing from me too, when we were talking about women was believe women. Right. So why can't you hear and listen to these men telling their stories, even though maybe that hasn't been your particular experience?

[A]

I think queer people, especially male presenting queer people, have this expectation of claiming and redefining your own masculinity and things that make you appear weak people are reticent to engage with. And so I think that means that I do know gay men and queer men who are survivors of assault and they don't want to do anything about it, partially because they know how difficult, how time consuming, how exhausting it can be. But also there's this fear of we've had to fight so hard to be taken seriously in this world and we don't want to harm our own kind of. I've gotten the impression from people that it hurts gay people. It hurts the American theater industry whenever we talk about these kinds of abuses. And I just don't think that's true.

[B]

If we talk about long, somehow there's people who think that we are hurting the theater industry, we're harming Broadway. I think that's bullshit. Michael, what do you think? I mean, that's just. Do you think that line of thought is out there.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Think that line of thought is out there. There is another line of thought that. That occurs to me. I get a lot of pushback from people that are like, well, I was traumatized and I didn't have to run and go tell my story.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's like. Right. But do you understand that, like, the way is being paved so that if you wanted to, you could.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And also don't have to make me feel like I'm being selfish by bringing attention to this. What's happening is you're suppressing your emotions. You had a trauma and you're suppressing it. And it's going to come up in your body. It's going to come up in the way that you psychologically deal with the world. It's going to come up in the way that you deal with your family and your possible children. And you feel like people don't deserve to talk about that because it's so prevalent. Because I don't want to get like all lefty on everybody, but capitalism trains us to expect a semi abusive situation just by earning a living. Right.

[A]

And be grateful that you can earn a living.

[C]

Be grateful for the abuse.

[B]

Well, be lucky. You're lucky. You can earn a living. Yeah.

[C]

It sounds like you're welcoming me to the lost colony.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And what's wild, what Michael just said was basically how I engaged with the American theater until I got a phone call. Call that his article is about to come out.

[B]

See, I think the two of you are both hitting on something for both of you to come out and tell your stories, which was a terrifying thing, but also a very empowering thing for both of you to claim that sort of agency for yourself in an industry that does everything it can to deny your agency. So when there are other people who have similarly been traumatized, they haven't experienced that sort of empowerment. They're afraid of it. And I would dare say that they're resentful that you were brave enough to take that step for yourself and for other people. That's. It's a lot for other people to deal with who have also similarly been traumatized.

[C]

I will say that I feel like the thing that is people are being threatened by is their own sense of complicity.

[A]

Yeah. Like makes people feel bad. Yeah. For them to be, to be held accountable for their complicity in a shitty situation makes good people feel bad.

[B]

It does.

[C]

Right. And if they worked in theater, they can think of at least 10 things off the top of their head that they Let slide.

[B]

And because so much of this happens constantly, there's an attitude of, well, this is the way it is. I had to put up with it. What's so special about you by coming out and telling your story?

[C]

Nothing. It's typical.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

It's special. It's typical. We're not trying to set up a situation where it's like, oh, my God, can you believe it? This Tony Award winner took advantage of people, and he's the only person that's ever done that. We're in a situation where we've got just this cavalcade of people that are in authority positions that have been outed with various degrees of repercussions, sometimes none. Sometimes it furthers their career. And so it's not so much that I think I'm special or Court thinks he's special, it's that we actually think that there is a commonality here.

[B]

And so do the two of you fear that with Scott Rudin back on Broadway, with Long working on the Queen of Versailles, that we're just slipping back to where we were, that we really didn't make much progress other than those two men being exiled for four or five years?

[C]

I think the progress that we made was the fact that there is a younger generation of people that are willing to tell that story and willing to examine the details of that story. I think that a lot of times, I don't want to bring it totally back to the Boomer thing, but I do think that I'll make a comparison to racism here, that sexual predation and racism are the type of things that will die out slowly as the generations die out. I think a younger generation will be a lot more sensitive to these type of issues. I think you're already seeing that with millennial actors and directors and producers. You're already seeing that with Generation Z. They don't really want to be handled that way or treated that way, and they won't show up for that. And so I think that it's just sort of the dying gasp of a theater dinosaur.

[A]

The extinction crisis. Yeah. I'm heartened with the engagement that I have with my undergraduate students. They have nuanced vocabulary. They have understanding of how to avoid allowing themselves to be put into difficult, risky, toxic positions because they just know so much more than we knew, and they're not afraid to speak up for things that they think are right. They have an activist streak that did not exist in our generation.

[B]

Well, I'm inspired by both of you, man. And I have so much respect for both of you and just keep fighting the good fight and I'm here whenever you need me.

[A]

Thanks Sean. I greatly respect everything you do.

[B]

Thank you. Michael Martin thank you Cort Watson thank you.

[A]

Thanks friends. Be well. Take care.

[B]

And an update on both Cort and Michael. Cort continues to work in costume and set design and also works as an instructor. Michael today works as a mental health counselor and expresses himself artistically as a playwright. Hear more bonus content for this episode at Stage Combat at Patreon. Just follow the link in the show notes. For just $5 a month you can become a member while you also get great bonus content and inside information about the episodes. And if you are a member at Stage Combat at Patreon. Thank you for making this podcast happen. We'd love to hear from you and hear your thoughts about this episode. You can follow us and send us a DM on Instagram @stagecombatthepodcast IG or email [e-mail] and while you've got your podcast platform open, why not rate us 5 stars right now and leave us a review to let others know what this podcast means to you. A reminder that nothing in this episode should be construed as medical or legal advice. Please consult with your own medical and legal professionals. I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat the podcast is a production of Heywood Productions llc.