"Somebody's Going to Get Hurt"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: Somebody's Going to Get Hurt
Host: Sean Hayden
Release Date: September 9, 2024

---

Introduction

In the fifth episode of Season 3, titled "Somebody's Going to Get Hurt," host Sean Hayden delves deep into the often-overlooked dangers of stage combat in the theater industry. This episode brings to light personal stories from actors who have faced physical injuries and mental health challenges due to inadequate safety measures during performances.

---

Opening Remarks and Context

Sean Hayden begins the episode by expressing gratitude to the podcast's supportive audience, emphasizing the community's role in sharing and validating personal experiences related to workplace mistreatment and safety. He sets the stage by recounting his own traumatic experience at the Goodspeed Opera House, where he felt unsafe performing stage combat sequences, leading to significant mental health struggles.

Sean Hayden [00:01]: "The story of Stage Combat in its first two seasons actually arose from fight sequences... I didn't feel safe working with him. It's something we dramatically dramatized in this podcast."

---

Listener Story: McKee Carpenter's Tale

McKee Carpenter, an actor from Marblehead, Massachusetts, shares his harrowing experience of being forced to perform a sword fight in the rain during an outdoor theater production in New York City.

McKee Carpenter [04:10]: "Grabbed a stool and just threw it on the stage... suddenly there are two guns in the room that have not even been discussed."

As the weather worsened, McKee expressed his concerns about safety, noting that other productions had canceled due to rain. Ignored by the director and producer, he was coerced into proceeding, resulting in both actors slipping during a headbutt, leading to severe injuries.

McKee Carpenter [09:56]: "Either I do it tonight or I don't have a job. So I did it."

The incident culminated in both actors being rushed to NYU Hospital, where McKee received a concussion, and his scene partner suffered a noticeable injury.

McKee Carpenter [12:34]: "He thought I was trying to prove a point... It was a betrayal."

---

Expert Insight: Angie Jepsen on Stage Combat Safety

Sean introduces Angie Jepsen, a stage combat instructor at Boston Conservatory at Berklee and a certified teacher with the Society of American Fight Directors. Angie elucidates the importance of fight calls—detailed rehearsals ensuring safety during staged violence.

Angie Jepsen [05:49]: "We're referring to the theatrical staging of violence... Anything that is going to be physical that is meant to tell a story of violence while keeping the actors safe."

She emphasizes that even seemingly minor actions, like a slap, carry significant risks if not properly choreographed.

Angie Jepsen [07:07]: "You can lose your hearing from a slap that's gone wrong."

---

Listener Story: Kaylyn Seckel's Injury and Recovery

Kaylyn Seckel narrates her traumatic experience during a Broadway show where a stage combat move led to a full Achilles rupture. Despite having a degree in theater, Kaylyn lacked formal training in stage combat, treating it merely as dance choreography. This oversight resulted in her being unprepared for the physical demands, culminating in a severe injury that sidelined her for over a year.

Kaylyn Seckel [24:32]: "Absolutely. And I'm not here to disparage him... It was very intense, and I was landing really hard."

Post-injury, Kaylyn grapples with both physical rehabilitation and the psychological impact, including panic attacks and anxiety related to returning to the stage.

Kaylyn Seckel [27:34]: "You go through the stages of grief... It's a traumatic thing."

---

Discussion on Industry Practices and Safety Protocols

Sean and his guests critically examine the prevalent practices in the theater industry regarding stage combat. They highlight the lack of mandatory fight calls in certain productions, exposing actors to unnecessary risks.

Kaylyn Seckel [21:25]: "Our fight call is not mandatory. So if you're an understudy... that was the mistake. The biggest mistake of my life, probably."

The conversation underscores the need for stricter safety protocols and the importance of actors advocating for their own safety.

Sean Hayden [32:03]: "You are the only one that's ultimately looking out for yourself, and you've got to do it."

---

Advocacy and Positive Changes

Following their traumatic experiences, both McKee and Kaylyn have taken proactive steps to promote safety in stage combat. McKee transitioned into a fight director, ensuring that young actors are trained and encouraged to speak up about their comfort levels.

McKee Carpenter [35:27]: "I just want everybody to look out for each other."

Kaylyn, on her part, has advocated for mandatory fight calls and customized protective gear, demonstrating resilience and a commitment to improving industry standards.

Kaylyn Seckel [31:19]: "I have custom shoes now... Why don't we all get custom shoes?"

---

Conclusion and Takeaways

Sean concludes the episode by reflecting on the collective stories shared, emphasizing that Sean's own experiences are far from isolated. The episode serves as a compelling call to action for actors to prioritize their safety and mental health, encouraging them to speak up and support one another.

Sean Hayden [44:10]: "Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions, llc... I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story."

The episode also teases upcoming content, including conversations with Angie Jepsen about her insights on stage combat safety incidents previously discussed in Seasons 1 and 2.

---

Key Quotes with Timestamps

• Sean Hayden [00:01]: "Stage Combat is about fighting back when we are mistreated in our workplaces."
• McKee Carpenter [05:08]: "There is power in numbers when we speak up."
• Kaylyn Seckel [21:28]: "The biggest mistake of my life, probably."
• Angie Jepsen [07:07]: "You can lose your hearing from a slap that's gone wrong."
• Sean Hayden [32:03]: "You are the only one that's ultimately looking out for yourself, and you've got to do it."
• Kaylyn Seckel [31:19]: "Why don't we all get custom shoes?"

---

Final Thoughts

"Somebody's Going to Get Hurt" is a poignant exploration of the hidden dangers in stage combat and the broader implications for actors' safety and mental well-being. Through personal testimonies and expert analysis, Sean Hayden effectively sheds light on the urgent need for systemic changes within the theater industry.

---

Stay Connected:

• Subscribe and Rate: Available on all major podcast platforms.
• Follow on Instagram: @StageCombatthepodcast
• Contact: StageCombatthePodcastMail.com
• Newsletter: stagecombatthepodcast.com

Support the Podcast: Become a member on Patreon for exclusive content and to support ongoing advocacy efforts.

---

Disclaimer: The information provided in this episode is for informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult a medical or mental health professional for advice tailored to your situation.

---

Edited by Alex Griffith, mixed and sound designed by Justin Gerrish, and produced by Sean Hayden for Heywood Productions, LLC.

Transcript

[Sean Hayden]

Hi everyone, it's Sean Hayden. Before we start the episode, I just want to thank you on behalf of the Stage Combat Team for all of your support for this new season of the podcast. Every day we receive messages and emails from you sharing with us just how much the podcast has affected your lives. For some of you, it's given you permission to perhaps revisit some some past events that you now know were not okay. For some, it's given you tools to better your mental health. And for many of you, the podcast has empowered you to simply stand up for yourself. We will continue to produce the meaningful content that means so much to you, but we do need your help. Did you know we are member supported programming? That means we rely on the support of our members over at Stage Combat at Patreon to produce this podcast. And by becoming a member at Stage Combat at Patreon for just pennies a day, not only will you help us continue the mission of Stage Combat, but you also get some pretty cool bonus content and exclusive companion podcast series as well. Follow the link in the show notes and become a member at Stage Combat at Patreon. Today it's a Tuesday morning and I'm sitting at the counter of Tom's Diner in New York City. The cake stands on each side of me today. Well, there's some kind of bundt cake to my left and a pile of muffins to my right. I can't tell what kind they are. And in front of me I have my Stage Combat notebook that is filled with your stories. In the front of my notebook I'm looking at the Stage Combat logo. That logo of Stage Combat always reminds me this podcast is about fighting back when we are mistreated in our workplaces. No matter what stage you may be on in your life, but the story of Stage Combat in its first two seasons actually arose from fight sequences. Stage Combat sequences in a stage production at the Goodspeed Opera House. And if you recall, my job while working at the Goodspeed as an actor required me to perform these hand to hand stage combat sequences with another cast member we called Chad and I didn't feel safe working with him. It's something we dramatically dramatized in this podcast. I've done enough stage combat in my career to know that when an actor says in real time they've been hit too hard or they've had the air knocked out of them, that's not up for debate. And the fact that Chad wants to debate this is frightening. So I tell Chad I don't feel safe on stage with you. I don't feel safe on stage with you. And as things spiraled out of control with Chad in the workplace and I saw that my employer was not taking any actions to keep me safe, I would wince every time Chad touched my body in a Stage Combat sequence, fearful that he might actually physically punch me. Portraying violence in front of an audience can sometimes feel a bit too real. It's something that many of you have felt working on the stage. I look at my Stage Combat binder on the counter, and I flip to a tab that I've labeled Stage Combat Stories. And on opening night, the lead performer decided to follow his impulses and. And in the middle of a fight.

[McKee Carpenter]

Grabbed a stool and just threw it on the stage, and it kind of exploded and shards through all over the place.

[Sean Hayden]

The middle of the rehearsal room, he brings in two firearms, both that are functional. Just drops them on the stage manager's table and walks out of the room without a word. She doesn't bat an eye. Director doesn't bat an eye. Nobody else even clocks it. And suddenly there are two guns in the room that have not even been discussed.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Companies always say safety is first, that it's not always true.

[Sean Hayden]

Lots of times bringing up safety concerns to be laughed at by the artistic directors.

[McKee Carpenter]

And then as it breached his head, blood just gushed down his face. And he then took his shirt, wiped the blood off his face, tied his T shirt around his head to, like, stop the wound from bleeding.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

You know, I've never in my life had a serious injury until then, so I had no idea what was happening. All I knew is that my leg from my knee down was numb.

[McKee Carpenter]

It was a betrayal.

[Sean Hayden]

These stories, your stories got me to wondering, do audiences actually understand the dangers that we actors face every time we step out on a stage when it comes to stage combat? And do we, as the actors, fully understand the risk that we are taking? This is Sean Hayden, and you're listening to episode five of season three of Stage Combat. Somebody's going to get hurt. So, Angie, what are we talking about when we use that phrase, stage combat?

[Angie Jepsen]

I would say that we're referring to the theatrical staging of violence. Anything that is going to be physical that is meant to tell a story of violence while keeping the actors safe.

[Sean Hayden]

That's Angie Jepsen. She teaches at Boston Conservatory at Berkeley, and her job is to teach stage combat to theater students, many of whom you will see on Broadway one day. Angie is also a certified teacher with the Society of American Fight Directors. Yeah, you know that we use that word Violence. Right. But that very word tells you what the potential danger is. We're simulating violence. It's a big deal.

[Angie Jepsen]

It's a big deal. And it doesn't matter if it is. I'm going to put this in quotes. Just a slap or it's a full out battle. There are safety precautions and choreography that have to be a part of what we do to keep everyone safe. And often folks will downplay what they think is dangerous based on the degree of storytelling that's involved. Oh, a full out battle must be more dangerous than when this character is slapping this character. And that's not necessarily the case.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, you can lose your hearing from a slap that's gone wrong.

[Angie Jepsen]

Yep. I know someone who has lost their hearing. One of the fightmasters with the Society of American Fight Directors lost her hearing. You can dislocate a jaw, you can lose a tooth. You can have an eye injury. Yeah, it's pretty awful. The possibilities of what can go wrong.

[Sean Hayden]

One of our listeners who reached out to us is McKee Carpenter. He's an actor who grew up in Marblehead, Massachusetts, and he came to New York to pursue his acting dreams along with a love for stage combat. And after listening to my stage combat story in this podcast, Key reached out and wrote, sorry you had to go through that. Definitely have been there. Myself was forced to do a sword fight in the rain. After printing up his message and reading it, I wrote in the margin, WTF can we meet McKee? Hey, Mickey, thanks for chatting with us. So let me just get this straight. You actually were forced to do a sword fight in the rain?

[McKee Carpenter]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

So where did this take place?

[McKee Carpenter]

It was a show here in New York City in the summertime outside theater production. So we're in the production, getting towards the epic fight scene towards the end, and the clouds are just rolling in, and it starts around us and then over us. And by the time it was over us, it was downpouring. So up till that moment, I just kept trying to say, like, every other show in the city has closed. There's no other outdoor shows running right now. This is irresponsible. This is dangerous. We shouldn't be doing this.

[Sean Hayden]

So you were aware at that time that there were outdoor productions in the area that had stopped or canceled the show that night because of the weather?

[McKee Carpenter]

Yeah. For instance, I knew the Delacorte was closed because it was too much rain.

[Sean Hayden]

That's the famous Shakespeare in the park. In Central Park.

[McKee Carpenter]

Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, I tried to plead my case, and he just said, well, I think I know better in the union, and if they want to come down here and show me how to do the show, they are more than welcome.

[Sean Hayden]

And when you're pleading your case, who are you pleading to at that time?

[McKee Carpenter]

The director and producer of the production company. I put my foot down as comfortable as I felt at that age, and then he gave me the ultimatum of, well, then you're either doing it or you're done.

[Sean Hayden]

And what did you understand that to mean?

[McKee Carpenter]

Either I do it tonight or I don't have a job. So I did it. Even though we pulled the fight back to maybe 50, 60% of the energy, we both slipped as we went for our choreographed headbutt, and we both slammed into each other's foreheads at full speed because we slipped at the same time, and we just went boom.

[Sean Hayden]

And, Mickey, how would that move have been performed, the headbutt, in a safe manner without the ring?

[McKee Carpenter]

When you're fighting and you're doing a headbutt, you're going parallel from each other. So when you adjust for the camera or when you adjust for the audience, you still do that action of parallel, but it's in such a way that one of the members of the fight's face or body gets in the way to hide the fact that there is no contact.

[Sean Hayden]

Your heads are not actually touching each other. It's an illusion that the two heads are sort of just passing each other.

[McKee Carpenter]

Like two ships in the night.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Whoop, whoop.

[McKee Carpenter]

Just because we both flipped just enough, both of our angles adjusted so that we went from this to that and went right into each other. That time I regained consciousness as the officiant of the fight was picking me up, and I looked over and my fight partner was pulling his shirt up over his head. And then as it breached his head, blood just gushed down his face. And he then took his shirt, wiped the blood off his face, tied his T shirt around his head to, like, stop the wound from bleeding. We spent the rest of the night at NYU hospital, and I had an egg, basically, on my head from the concussion.

[Sean Hayden]

A huge lump.

[McKee Carpenter]

Yeah. And my scene partner now has a Harry Potter scar. So from there, we went to nyu, and because it wasn't life threatening, there were other people that had to go first. And cops kept walking past me and my scene partner as we both have, like, this covering our heads and everything, sitting next to each other. And the cops are like, did you do that to each other?

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, yeah. It was on purpose, but not supposed to happen. It was so bad that Nypd questioned whether or not you guys had had a real fight on purpose.

[McKee Carpenter]

A real fight? Well, yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[McKee Carpenter]

But. Yep, my seam partner ended up needing stitches, and we both ended up having to stay up all night make sure we didn't have serious concussion.

[Sean Hayden]

How did you feel? You're in the hospital. What are you feeling at that moment?

[McKee Carpenter]

I shouldn't be here. I warned you. I told you this would happen. And we're here.

[Sean Hayden]

So the director and the producer, that's the same person. What did that person say to you in the hospital?

[McKee Carpenter]

Well, we actually had to have a little talk. He thought I did it on purpose.

[Sean Hayden]

Let's just stop right there.

[McKee Carpenter]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

This is one of the moments in putting together this episode that my jaw drops.

[McKee Carpenter]

He thought I was trying to prove a point. And by proving my point, I head butted the person. So we had to have a talk.

[Sean Hayden]

And what did you. Sorry. That's bonkers. I mean, what did you think when you heard that?

[McKee Carpenter]

Yeah, you go to hell.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[McKee Carpenter]

He tried to shake my hand at first, and I just looked at it and looked at him, and he got very angry with me because I didn't shake his hand. So we then had a talk, and I was like, I warned you this would happen, and you didn't listen to me. And he proceeded to say that, well, I mean, you should have slowed down. You shouldn't have been going full force. It was irresponsible to be doing it that speed. You shouldn't be doing it. It's like you're doing it on purpose. It was a betrayal, and it's definitely a chip on my shoulder that I hold that if I'm about to do a fight scene, I worry about my safety. And I'm very hyper vigilant about what's about to happen.

[Sean Hayden]

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

[McKee Carpenter]

I'm sorry that it happened to you as well.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, Nikki, I wanted to do this episode to show the risk that are involved in actual stage combat that we're asked to perform. But I think it's important to note that the risk is not just in the stunt. There's also the risk that we may be working for someone who doesn't care about our safety. I certainly felt like, in my opinion, the people I worked with at that Connecticut theater did not care about my safety. And so none of us know walking into a job whether the people we will be working for will actually be looking out for us.

[McKee Carpenter]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Is that director and producer still working today? Yeah. So, Angie, one of the ways productions keep the actors safe during stage combat sequences is with fight calls. We had an episode in season one of this podcast called Fight Call. Can you tell us what a fight call is?

[Angie Jepsen]

A fight call is a. You could almost call it a mini rehearsal.

[Sean Hayden]

That's what I call it.

[Angie Jepsen]

So perfect.

[Sean Hayden]

That's what we said in season one. It is a mini rehearsal.

[Angie Jepsen]

Yes, a mini rehearsal before the actors get into costume and makeup. And I have the actors go through the fight at least twice. The first time is really slow, and it's a chance to really just think technically, again, about the safety aspects. What's our distance from one another? What's my targeting? Am I low and grounded in my body? And then you do the fight as you would do it in performance, with performance speed and energy and acting. And with both of those, if anything is a little off, you stop and you work that individual moment. And fight calls are important because we are human. But there always is the potential danger of something being just a little bit off, of an audience reaction surprising us and heading into something with a little bit different energy. But the more that we have continued to put that fight into our muscle memory and reminding ourselves every day, here's how it goes, we're able to be consistent with it. And when a show does not have a fight call, I guarantee you someone will get hurt.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And I think we've always had understudies, we've always had swings, but we are more aware of how frequently they are used and how valuable they are. And so I see that fight calls are even more critical because you have people coming in and out of these sequences that are not performing it eight times a week.

[Angie Jepsen]

100%.

[Sean Hayden]

And the other thing is choreography or musical sequences can have stage combat moves within the choreography.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yes.

[Sean Hayden]

Are you of the opinion that that is equally as important to isolate in a fight call, even though it may be falling within this umbrella of choreography and a musical number?

[Angie Jepsen]

It absolutely should be part of Fight Call. I think any kind of lift. There's a lot of lifts in dance, you know, and having a lift call, even if there's not a fight, making sure a lift is something that is done. Yeah. Whether it's in the middle of a dance sequence or not. It is extreme physical movement that, if done incorrectly, can result in an injury for someone.

[Sean Hayden]

Because there's so many things that could go wrong.

[Angie Jepsen]

So many things that could go wrong.

[Sean Hayden]

It's a lesson that one of our listeners, actor Kaelyn Seckel, wishes she had known before she suffered a devastating injury while working on Broadway in 2019.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I think one thing that I really had to learn after the injury was that when you have an injury like this, you make two steps forward and then you take three steps back, and then you take two and it just keeps going like that.

[Sean Hayden]

Kaylin is an actor, singer and dancer who has been performing all of her life.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

My mom owned a dance studio in Tallahassee, Florida, and she closed it down and then started working in schools, teaching dance in schools. But all my life growing up, my mom was my dance coach.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, we talked about. You and I are actually from the same part of the country. North Florida, right?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah, the Panhandle. Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

We were just commenting that people need to realize that is the Deep South 100. A lot of people say Florida is not the South. No, North Florida is the deep South.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Right, yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

When did you come to New York?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I came later than most people. I call myself a late bloomer because I moved up to New York when I was 30.

[Sean Hayden]

I was a late bloomer too.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I was doing Disney and Universal down in Orlando, cruise ships, stuff like that. And then I finally was like, you know what? It's now or never. I'm gonna go up to New York.

[Sean Hayden]

And Kalyn was cast in a long running Broadway show, but her dream became a nightmare when a stage combat move in her show went horribly awry. So before we talk about an injury that you sustained while working in a Broadway show, I'm curious as to what was your training, your perception as an actor about safety on stage and in particular, fight choreography and fight safety?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah. To be honest with you, I have a degree in theater from Florida State University. And right before I got there, they cut the stage combat program. I don't think I've ever had much training actually in stage combat. It's always treated as choreography, kind of as dance choreography. And I think we sometimes lack that experience.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, you get cast in a show, but it's never like, oh, the show has fight choreography. Did you train in that? You didn't? Okay, we're not going to cast you. It never happens that way. Right. It's that, you know, we're going to teach you how to do it in the workplace.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Exactly. Yeah. It's like, can you sing the songs? Do you look the part?

[Sean Hayden]

Exactly. And then there's the assumption that someone on the team is going to be looking out for safety and teaching how these moves can be performed safely. Right. That's the assumption I always had walking into a theater.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah. And it doesn't always feel like That I don't know if you want me to get into this now, but we usually have a fight call, but they're not mandatory. You are allowed to decline it. And my partner declined it. Said, oh, we rehearsed earlier this week, were fine. And I was silly, and I was like, well, if he's fine, then I feel fine. You know, that was my mistake.

[Sean Hayden]

Did you say you could decline the fight call?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah, absolutely. It's not mandatory.

[Sean Hayden]

I. Okay, I'm a little. I'm shocked at hearing that. So this is the second time while interviewing for this episode that my jaw drops. My experience in any production with stage combat is that there is always a fight call. It's not optional.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah, it is not. Our fight call is not mandatory. So if you're an understudy and you go on with a new guy that you haven't really, really even touched, you can absolutely say, I feel good. We don't need to do it. And that was the mistake. The biggest mistake of my life, probably.

[Sean Hayden]

Turns out there's a regulation governing fight calls under the Actors Union, Actors Equity. That rule states that for Broadway shows, if a production requires the actor to engage in stage fighting and or stunts, all the actors who participate in a fight shall run the routine before each performance. So at the beginning of the show, there was not a mandatory fight call to run the fight choreography. And why do you think the reason for that was? Did they feel that it fell under the umbrella of choreography versus stage combat or fight choreography? I'm finding this very perplexing.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah, I think that is absolutely the reason.

[Sean Hayden]

And after speaking with Kahlan, we found out that is what is apparently happening. This particular fight sequence has been swept under the umbrella of choreography. And so there is no required fight call for the actors to run the safety of the move before each performance.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

This particular show, the fight choreography, it's too music and it's beautiful and it's. It's a dance. But the intention of these two characters is that they're going to rip each other apart.

[Sean Hayden]

So without a fight call to run the stage combat moves, Kaelyn stepped out for an evening performance.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I was an understudy in the show, and I was on with another understudy in the show. We go to do this fight choreography in front of 1800 people in the audience. And the choreography entails me jumping onto him and him throwing me off of him. But I'm on a six foot tall man.

[Sean Hayden]

How tall are you?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I'm short. I'm five, four. And yeah, so I'M jumping on top of this man, and he's kind of just pushing me off of him. And we do that a couple of times. And I was coming down really hard. I was being tossed very high, very strong guy.

[Sean Hayden]

So you have leapt onto his body.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yes.

[Sean Hayden]

And then the combat move requires him to throw you off his body.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yes.

[Sean Hayden]

And it felt like you were perhaps being tossed higher than you normally would be tossed with other actors and in other performances.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Absolutely. And I'm not here to disparage him. He's a wonderful guy. Like I've said before, it's oftentimes you get on the stage and in the heat of the moment and acting and you know your intentions behind what you're doing, you get a little carried away. It was very intense, and I was landing really hard.

[Sean Hayden]

And what would you land on, Kahlan.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

You'Re landing just on a very hard steel stage, like, underneath that wood. It's like just steel. There's lots of tracks running on the.

[Sean Hayden]

Stage, so there's no padding, there's no matting. There's nothing like that.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Right. You are just landing on your own on this very hard stage in pretty thin shoes. We finish the number. I'm in a little pain, but I'm like, okay, it's over. Thank God. Right after we ended that choreography, my Achilles snapped. It was a full Achilles rupture. It was not a tear. It was a full. My Achilles was no longer attached.

[Sean Hayden]

Kaylyn was carried off the stage and rushed to the hospital. Within the week, she was in surgery to reattach her Achilles. In terms of being able to go back to work, how long of a period was that for you?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I was out of work for an entire year.

[Sean Hayden]

It took that long to recover.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I'm one of the lucky ones whose show was still there after a year because if I didn't have something to go back to, I'm still not ready after 16 months to go audition. I'm still not ready. I just started taking dance classes again last week, and I cried. Before I did this show, I was on tour with something rotten. Tap dancing every night in three inch heels. Something I couldn't even think of doing right now.

[Sean Hayden]

When you say you were in tears, can you tell me what you were feeling?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I was feeling because I went to a basic tap class at Broadway Dance Center. Basic. The lowest tap class you can get to for beginners. And it was difficult.

[Sean Hayden]

So that was probably a shock to the system for someone like you.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Absolutely. Especially 16 months after the surgery. I think there's A grieving to it. Right. You go through the stages of grief where you're like, okay, now I'm going to accept it. I'm accept that this is the new me and that I'm not disabled. I can walk, I can dance. It's just different and might take more effort now. But the kind of depression you go into after not being able to do what you used to do, I mean, for one second to be jumping, running, doing a fight scene, and the next second to not be able to walk for months is a traumatic thing. That is the definition of a traumatic injury.

[Sean Hayden]

In addition to the physical injury, there's been a mental health component of dealing with this for you, hasn't there?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Absolutely. I think a lot of people can relate now to what I'm about to say because of COVID It's our identity. That's what I found out during COVID is like our identity is based on what we do. A lot of the times we put our heart and soul in bodies, everything we have into being performers, to being actors, singers, dancers. And so during COVID when that was kind of taken away from us, we were lost, you know, and that's how it feels, too. I'm not who I used to be. I can't do the things that. And will it get to the point where I can do those things again, where I don't feel like my career is compromised because of this injury?

[Sean Hayden]

What is it like for you now when you step back on stage? Is there a fear of another injury?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

100%. That's another thing a lot of people don't talk about is after you sustained a traumatic injury, any injury, really, but I have experience with a traumatic injury. Getting back on stage was so scary, I even was terrified that the other one was going to rupture. Yeah, it's just a vicious cycle.

[Sean Hayden]

Did anything change with regard to having mandatory fight calls after your accident?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Not to my knowledge. When I returned to work the week I returned, we had an injury prevention workshop where we were taught how to stretch and taught how to warm up for the show, but nothing was addressed.

[Sean Hayden]

Did that say something to you?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yes, it absolutely felt. I don't know if I can say personal, because that's. It's definitely the way I took it, let's put it that way. I don't know if it was intended for me. It was the week I came back to work after a very long medical leave, but it did say to me, we do not take responsibility. The responsibility is solely yours. That's what it said to Me.

[Sean Hayden]

Kayleen, when you look back and just to the extent that you're comfortable even saying this, do you look back at the night you were injured and do you wish things had been done differently other than not being injured? Of course. But have you had time to reflect on that?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah. I hate putting blame on other people. And at the same time, I'm not fully to blame for this either, because Achilles ruptures just happened. It wasn't like, oh, my ankle was hurting. I should have just been like, yeah, put the other understudy on. It wasn't anything like that. I do, however, wish, and this is an ongoing conversation that needs to be had, is that these things were mandatory.

[Sean Hayden]

You mean fight calls?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah. I know we're all adults and we can make our own decisions, but I sometimes wish that it was a mandatory thing that I had had a fight call. So it's like, yes, while not having these protocols in place hurt me, didn't hurt the show as much. The show's gonna go on. That's why I want to advocate in the workplace to be safer, but I also want to advocate for us because we're the ones. Actors who are advocating for themselves are going to be the ones to change the workplace.

[Sean Hayden]

Kaylyn says she feels like she's already starting to do that for herself now, right down to asking for the right kind of shoes that she needs to do her job now that she has one leg that is very different from the other one.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I'm very proud of myself. I have custom shoes now. I have custom shoes because I said, hey, if I'm going to be doing this for the foreseeable future as a cover, I need to feel safe in the shoes that I'm jumping and landing in. And so I work with head of wardrobe and a shoe designer to make me a custom shoe that fits my new, huge, thick Achilles.

[Sean Hayden]

And that's something you advocated for. I assume someone did not come to you and offer it to you.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

No, no, no. I advocated. I turned down every shoe they offered me because I was like, no, it's not good. That's not good for me. So it's like, why don't we all get custom shoes?

[Sean Hayden]

You know what I mean?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

It. All it takes is. Is one person saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is what I'm going to do. This is what I need from you. And that's how I'm going to feel safe. And then every other person being like, oh, I kind of would love that, too. And then there's strength in numbers. We have to support each other. If I see something unsafe happening, I'm writing the email like, this didn't happen to me, but this happened to this person in the show. And I think in this industry, we often fear. I mean, you've talked about this in your podcast. You know, we fear standing up for ourselves because then we become the squeaky wheel and we're like, oh, we'll never work again because this person hates me because I'm the squeaky wheel.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, you've made me very emotional because the commonality I feel with you is what I wish every actor knew. You are the only one that's ultimately looking out for yourself, and you've got to do it.

[Angie Jepsen]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

And there may be consequences. I had consequences for looking out for myself. But you don't want to put your life and your safety in the hands of maybe other people. I'm not saying in your production in particular, but just in general that are not looking out for your safety, your well being, your mental health, your physical health. So like you said, there is power in numbers.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Absolutely. That's the biggest thing. I just want everybody to look out for each other.

[Sean Hayden]

A couple of months later, I decided to check in with Makee and see how he's been doing since he told us his story. Since the infamous sword fight in the rain. McKee became a fight director and a fight choreographer, and now he's calling the shots when it comes to safety. So, Micky, well, let me just ask you this. I'm curious. How have you been doing since we last spoke and you told me the story about the sword fight in the rain? What was that like for you to tell that story to us?

[McKee Carpenter]

Freeing, actually. I told it very little because I didn't want to ruffle any feathers. And the more people I tell it to, the more common this kind of story is. Like, oh, man, I had this kind of thing happen to me. Oh, man, I wish I'd known that because I had this happen to me.

[Sean Hayden]

And I can only assume that what happened to you in 2011 has informed the way you approach stage combat and fight direction today.

[McKee Carpenter]

Only by 100%.

[Sean Hayden]

Can you tell me how safety is.

[McKee Carpenter]

Number one for us, especially now we have a cast that we're working with seventh to eighth graders.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. What does that mean to you to be able to teach actors that young, to be able to try to instill what you believe in when it comes to fight safety at such an early age? Well, I love it.

[McKee Carpenter]

I'll say that first. But it's energy, wrangling we have this one child. She is so gung ho. It was like, whoa. I love the energy, I love the eagerness. Let's pull it back. It gives me hope for the future that they really love watching it, but at the same time they take it really seriously. I'll give them a note and they'll run right back to their three ring binder and write it right next to where I told them to. And it gives me energy as well.

[Sean Hayden]

And the students and the actors that you're instructing, no matter what age they are, I assume you're encouraging them to speak up when they don't feel safe.

[McKee Carpenter]

100%. When we work with any age group, we know that everybody has limitations, whether it be in their body or they don't feel comfortable doing something like being flipped. If they don't feel comfortable being flipped, we make sure we ask, are you comfortable doing this? Do you feel comfortable doing this six or seven times a week? If not, you need to let us know. We can always alter it. We want you to feel comfortable. If they're not feeling safe, then they can't give their true self over to the craft.

[Sean Hayden]

You don't want any actor to feel like the way you did in the sword fight in the rain.

[McKee Carpenter]

100%. I. I never want anybody to feel the way I did in the sword fight in the rain.

[Sean Hayden]

I reached out to Kaelyn by email to check in on her. It had been several months since we last talked. Unfortunately, she told me she had experienced a setback with something. I know a few things about panic. Well, how are we?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Oh, what a loaded question.

[Sean Hayden]

I was crushed to see your email.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah, yeah. I was so mad at myself too, because I was like, he said to reach out. He said to reach out. You can reach out if you need, you know, And I'm, I'm always the kind of person who's like, you can deal with it on your own. You're fine.

[Sean Hayden]

About a week before speaking with Kaylyn, the second time she went on for that same role in her show, the same role in which she suffered her injury. And when she got to the fight scene, her leg just gave out. She fell. She was able to get back up, but the incident really spooked her.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah, my leg just gave out. My calf is still about 3/4 of the size of the other one. And so it's hard, the building up, muscles not happening as fast as I'd like. And the more I think about it, the more I'm like, there is another component to it. As well. My leg is weak and it just gave out. But there is also a physical response that I have when I have anxiety where my whole body just is just overcome with, like, this debilitating stress, and then my whole body feels weak. Jumping feels harder, running feels harder. Everything feels harder. Your breath, support is gone.

[Sean Hayden]

It's not just the physical injury that you're still recovering from, but the way your whole body is responding to the anxiety of the situation and the anxiety of what you've been through.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Absolutely, yeah. And I have to keep reminding myself. I have to keep. I'm like, why? What are you doing? Like, you. This is what you do. Like, going on stage does not make you nervous. You do not. What's going on? This last time, I don't remember the rest of the show.

[Sean Hayden]

When you failed the last time, I.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Don'T remember the show after that. Everyone was telling me, they were like, you did a great job. Don't worry about that. You did a great job. And I'm like, I have no idea if I did a great job. The rest of the show. It was just. The show ended, and I was like, oh, my. Did that just happen?

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

This last time I went on, I was like, it's time. It's time to talk to someone about it.

[Sean Hayden]

Are you going to try to find a therapist?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah. Because I think I've always felt that's something I've been. I've been like, well, Kaylin, you're so therapized now that, like, you can handle things on your own, and sometimes there are things that you maybe are not equipped to handle on your own. And I think this might be one of those things.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, Kaylin, I think that we all do this. It's ingrained in us that we have to be tough and we have to just get over it. And we do ourselves a disservice. We disrespect ourselves. Our souls do not recognize we're human beings. And particularly with you going through something that was so traumatic. So, look, I don't have panic attacks anymore, but I don't rule out the possibility that they could come back. And that would probably feel a little defeating. But kind of what I've learned doing this podcast is to kind of be prepared for that, because I'm a human being, you know, we don't know how our body's going to react. Right. The body has a mind of its own.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah. I love that you say that, because what I did. So that happened on a Monday, then we were off Tuesday, and the rest of the week. I was fighting back panic attacks, just going in to do my normal track. I came off stage after my song and started gagging into a trash can like I was trying not to throw up. And when I tell you this has never been me, that's why I think it's so scary. You're like, have I lost a part of myself? I might get emotional. Have I lost a part of myself? I mean, I've been doing this since I was a child. This is not me.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, look, Kaylin, I never dreamed I would have a panic attack and collapse. You know, that's just your body responding to circumstances. And I just hope that. I don't want you to let it defeat you and I don't want you to beat yourself up for it. I do believe that particularly panic can be managed. I'm living proof of that, you know, and some people, it's harder to manage the panic, but there are ways to manage that. It's just you don't have anyone helping you right now. You're doing it on your own. Right?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

So, Kaelyn, can you tell me what the climate is like at work now?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I will say the director of our show, other injuries have happened. Director of our show was like, we're changing this culture. He's like, this has got to change. We're not rushing actors back. They're going to hurt themselves again. We're gonna have to deal with this, you know?

[Sean Hayden]

What did that feel like, to hear that?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Wow, it was. It was amazing to hear that there was someone who had our backs, you know, And I've been very vocal, actually. Just had company management and the PSM ask me to sit down and talk with me, because I think they've been seeing the stress. I mean, everyone's seeing it. I can't hide it anymore. We'll see how it goes in the future. But there feels like this last week there has been some change in how they're showing up and caring for us. It takes having a panic attack and for them to see that and for.

[Sean Hayden]

More people to talk about it.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I'm not being quiet anymore when I see someone get hurt.

[Sean Hayden]

Has anything changed about fight calls?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah. So nothing really has changed, except that I always elect to have the fight call.

[Sean Hayden]

You do now.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

And I think because of what happened to me, everyone who goes on for that role is like, yes, please, fight call. You know, everyone does. And I think that's great because of you. Yeah, it is. It is. Because.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, that's a positive change. Don't you Think.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely a positive change.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, I'm so sorry you've had the setbacks. I think your spirit is resilient, you know, and it sounds like in small ways and maybe even in big ways, what you've been through is effectuating change. You and I are both realist. I feel like, you know, it's like, well, let me see what the final product is. But the fact that there are conversations, there are people asking for flight calls themselves. You said when we last talked, there's power in numbers when we speak up. And this is just you, Kaylyn, one person speaking up. So, yeah, I admire you for that.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Oh, thank you. I can only hope that something can come out of this and help other people. So that's what I'm trying to do.

[Sean Hayden]

All right. Will you let me know when you find a therapist and how that's going?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

I will. I will, yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

And if you need to talk, we'll talk, right?

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yeah, absolutely. I consider you a new friend. And so I thank you so much.

[Sean Hayden]

I consider you a friend. Bye, Kailyn. And we'll be checking in with each other.

[Kaylyn Seckel]

Yes. Thank you so much. All right, bye.

[Sean Hayden]

After speaking with both McKee and Kaelin, as well as reading so many of your stories, I now know that what I experienced at the Goodspeed Opera House was not a once in a lifetime occurrence. When it comes to an actor's safety. Every day, actors are stepping on stages and put in situations that present safety hazards. The danger is not only getting physically hurt. The prospect of getting hurt can actually produce a mental health condition. That's what happened to me. And it's something Kaylyn is now having to tackle as well. So what's my takeaway when it comes to safety? Well, consider this. The first day of rehearsals. It's something actors call the first day of school. And it usually begins with everyone sitting in a circle of chairs. Next time you find yourself sitting in that circle, take a look around the room. Don't assume that anyone in that circle is going to be looking out for your safety. Ultimately, the person most concerned about your safety, it's you. Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat. Because that's like, you graduate high school and it's, I'm gonna be an actor. Time to go to conservatory. That's the road that you've been on. Yeah, that's the path.

[McKee Carpenter]

And then just realizing along the way that it's. It's not as.

[Sean Hayden]

I mean, the rose colored glasses come.

[McKee Carpenter]

Off, and that's part of growing up.

[Sean Hayden]

It's Like, I don't know, broad Broadway.

[McKee Carpenter]

When you're little is this beautiful, glorious cake that I just. We want to eat the whole thing. And then now it seems like a rusty old pipe.

[Sean Hayden]

That's coming up on episode six of Stage Combat, Charlie at the Crossroads. Hear more of my conversation with Boston Conservatory instructions, instructor and fight director Angie Jepsen and her take on the fight safety incidents at the Goodspeed Opera House as told in seasons one and two of this podcast. Yeah, it's a no brainer, right, Angie?

[Angie Jepsen]

It's a no brainer. It's a no brainer.

[Sean Hayden]

It's like you stop everything and you pull that actor aside and said, no.

[Angie Jepsen]

Yes, this is a problem. And there's multiple places that should have made that stop for you. It shouldn't have.

[Sean Hayden]

The burden should have just been multiple places where there was an opportunity to nip this in the bud. And then it just kept growing and growing.

[Angie Jepsen]

And it sounds like there were many signs even before that moment that folks.

[Sean Hayden]

Yes, there were just a few. Who knew this would happen.

[Angie Jepsen]

Yeah, right, exactly.

[Sean Hayden]

That's over in our Backstage Pass content at Patreon, where I also give you my own personal post show wrap up plus at Patreon, you can enjoy our companion series which have been created exclusively for our Backstage pass holders, such as our mental health podcast, the Mental Health Pod, and our acting podcast called Just Acting, with my co host, Christopher Webb, professor of Acting at Boston Conservatory at Berkeley. Right now, our members are enjoying a new episode of Just Acting where Chris and I talk about how actors can safely get into and out of their roles without psychological damage. Like you just did these roles and thought, yeah, it's heavy on me and it's weighing on me, but that's my cross to bear as an actor. And that's just such bullshit. And we told ourselves that for so many years.

[McKee Carpenter]

It's such. I will say this, yes, we had this mentality that it was our cross to bear, but my kid didn't sign up for that.

[Sean Hayden]

And remember, if you believe in what we're doing at the podcast, as well as our advocacy to bring about real change in the industry, your membership at Patreon is what enables us to continue doing that work. We simply cannot do it without you. Just a reminder, the information in this podcast is not medical advice. Please seek the advice of a medical and or a mental health professional. This episode was edited by Alex Griffith, mixing and sound design wore by Justin Gerrish and it was written and directed by me, Sean Hayden for Heywood Productions llc. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate and review us on your podcast platform. We always love to hear from you, so send us a DM on Instagram @StageCombat the podcast IG or send us an [e-mail] you can also sign up for the Stage Combat newsletter [e-mail] I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions, llc.