“You’re Under Investigation: Laura's Story"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast – Season 3, Episode: “You’re Under Investigation: Laura's Story”

Release Date: October 7, 2024

Overview

In the poignant episode titled “You’re Under Investigation: Laura's Story,” Season 3 of Stage Combat The Podcast delves into the harrowing experiences of Laura, a dedicated artist and artistic director who became the target of a malicious workplace investigation. Hosted by attorney, advocate, and actor Sean Hayden, this episode not only sheds light on Laura’s personal struggles but also explores the broader implications of flawed workplace investigations within the theater industry. Featuring insights from employment attorney Mark Carey, the episode serves as a crucial commentary on the systemic issues affecting professionals in creative fields.

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1. Introduction to Laura’s Story

The episode opens with Sean Hayden introducing Laura, a passionate artist from New England who co-founded a small fringe theater company. Laura’s aspiration to legitimize her company in a community that often sidelines fringe theater set the stage for the unfolding drama.

Notable Quote:

Sean Hayden [00:03]: “This podcast and episodes such as 'You’re Under Investigation: Laura’s Story' is made possible by our members at Stage Combat on Patreon.”

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2. The Genesis of the Crisis

Three years into running her theater company, Laura began noticing a sudden shift in her professional relationships, particularly with the associate artistic director. The once close-knit collaboration turned cold, culminating in an anonymous allegation of abuse that upended her life.

Notable Quotes:

Laura [07:32]: “An anonymous person who's not the person I was in the relationship with has reached out to the theater to report that you were in a relationship with another person that's not the person reporting it. And that you were, quote, unquote, abusive.”

Sean Hayden [09:57]: “So he tells you it's a good idea for you to temporarily step down. And what does he say the next steps are going to be?”

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3. The Flawed Investigation Process

Laura recounts how the investigation lacked transparency and structure. She was never informed about the specifics of the allegations, the procedures to be followed, or the individuals overseeing the investigation. This absence of clarity and support exacerbated her mental anguish, leading to severe mental health repercussions.

Notable Quotes:

Laura [10:17]: “I was like, supposed to just sit around and wait while they investigated me. And that's all that I knew.”

Sean Hayden [11:32]: “For Laura, this call accelerated a series of thoughts for her.”

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4. The Personal and Professional Fallout

The weight of the allegations and the opaque investigation process drove Laura into a state of despair, culminating in a suicide attempt. Hospitalized for a week, Laura felt abandoned by her company, who offered minimal support during her crisis.

Notable Quotes:

Laura [14:21]: “I intentionally overdosed on some medication, and I go outside and lay down in my hammock and think, this is it.”

Sean Hayden [18:09]: “Wow. Laura, once they're aware that you're in the hospital, what is the communication from anyone at the company during that week you're in the hospital?”

Laura [18:44]: “I felt abandoned and I felt angry.”

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5. Confronting the Aftermath

Upon returning to her professional environment, Laura discovered that the associate artistic director had disseminated a Google form soliciting negative reports about her. This revelation further marginalized her, leading to the dissolution of her theater company and the severance of professional ties without any formal apology or resolution.

Notable Quotes:

Laura [22:14]: “I think it was just open ended… Do you have anything bad to say about Laura, basically? Yep. Pretty. Yeah, that seems to be what it was.”

Sean Hayden [27:44]: “They all just quit.”

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6. Expert Insights with Employment Attorney Mark Carey

To provide a broader perspective, Sean Hayden brings in Mark Carey, an employment attorney specializing in representing wronged employees. Carey deconstructs the systemic flaws in workplace investigations, emphasizing that these processes are often skewed to protect employers rather than ensure fairness for employees.

Key Discussions:

• Impartiality in Investigations: Carey asserts that true impartial investigations are rare, as they rarely include interviewing the accused, rendering them ineffective for employee protection.

  Notable Quote:

  Mark Carey [30:37]: “You don't have an impartial investigation without interviewing the accused.”

• Employer Liability and Defamation: The conversation delves into how employers can be held liable for defamation when they propagate unfounded allegations or mishandle investigations.

  Notable Quote:

  Mark Carey [34:48]: “The employer can become part of that liability if it propagates it in any way.”

• Lack of Transparency and Rights: Sean probes into the rights employees have regarding being informed about investigations. Carey clarifies that, except in specific state roles, employees have no statutory rights to be notified about internal investigations unless through legal action.

  Notable Quote:

  Mark Carey [39:31]: “The answer is no, you don't have any rights to it.”

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7. Healing and Moving Forward

The episode culminates with an update from Laura, who shares her ongoing journey of healing. Through therapy and support from loved ones, Laura is gradually reclaiming her sense of self and redefining her relationship with her creative endeavors outside the theater company.

Notable Quotes:

Laura [41:01]: “I am still healing. I think that hopefully it'll get better with time.”

Sean Hayden [42:42]: “One be on top of your mental health, have a therapist. Right. Even for maintenance and to invest in relationships which are not in the theater.”

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8. Concluding Insights

Sean Hayden wraps up the episode by highlighting the transformative power of storytelling in advocating for fair workplace practices. He underscores the necessity for more individuals like Laura to share their experiences, fostering awareness and urging employers to adopt more humane and transparent investigation processes.

Notable Quotes:

Sean Hayden [43:38]: “We need more stories like mine and like Laura's to come forward to build awareness about the issue and to pressure our employers.”

Laura [43:36]: “I feel pretty good right now.”

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Key Takeaways

1. Systemic Flaws in Workplace Investigations: The episode underscores how investigations are often designed to protect employers rather than ensure justice for employees, leading to devastating personal and professional consequences.

2. Mental Health Implications: The lack of support and transparency in workplace investigations can trigger severe mental health crises, emphasizing the need for compassionate and structured approaches.

3. Legal Perspectives: Insights from Mark Carey reveal the complexities of employment law, particularly concerning defamation and the limited rights employees have in internal investigations.

4. Power Dynamics in the Arts: The theater industry, characterized by hierarchical and often insular communities, can exacerbate the impact of flawed investigations on individuals' careers and well-being.

5. Importance of Storytelling: Sharing personal narratives like Laura’s is crucial for raising awareness, fostering empathy, and driving systemic change within industries prone to such injustices.

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Final Thoughts

“You’re Under Investigation: Laura's Story” serves as a compelling narrative that intertwines personal ordeal with broader commentary on workplace justice. Through Laura’s courage in sharing her experience and Mark Carey’s expert analysis, the episode invites listeners to reflect on and advocate for more equitable and humane workplace practices.

Stage Combat The Podcast continues to champion the voices of those navigating the often tumultuous intersections of art, advocacy, and personal integrity.

Transcript

[Sean Hayden]

Hi, Sean Hayden here. You're listening to member supported programming. This podcast and episodes such as you're under investigation. Lara Story is made possible by our members at Stage Combat at Patreon. Consider becoming a member today by following the link in the show notes. And now on with the episode foreign. The episode you are about to hear does contain content dealing with suicide and self harm. So please proceed with caution if that is potentially triggering for you. And we want to remind you that if you or someone you know is in crisis, help is always available by contacting the suicide and crisis lifeline. You can call or text 988. That's 988, 24 hours a day. Please take care of yourself and each other. All right, so tell me how you're feeling. Nervous?

[Laura]

Yeah, I'm feeling a little nervous. I always get a little nervous when I tell this story just because a lot of the feelings from when it happens can kind of come up for me.

[Sean Hayden]

And so knowing that me having my own experience with when you tell something, it comes up, just take care of yourself later today. Right. Maybe even tomorrow you'll feel some of that. Right?

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

So let me just sketch out for you what my idea is for the episode. We're calling the episode you're under investigation. We're going to draw the parallels to what we heard in Stage Combat and then what happened with you. But what's different about you is that the health consequences were more severe for you. And I think that's really important for people to know, and I think that's why it's really. See, I'm getting emotional though. Yeah. It's really, really important that people know about the potential repercussions for harmful behavior.

[Laura]

That sounds good.

[Sean Hayden]

Can we go to 11 o'clock today?

[Laura]

Yes, absolutely.

[Sean Hayden]

And if we need to stop, you'll let me know?

[Laura]

Yes, I will.

[Sean Hayden]

Okay. Can you tell me a little about yourself, what part of the country you're from? And let's start there.

[Laura]

Sure. So I'm from New England. I've lived here since college, and I'm an artist.

[Sean Hayden]

I'm Sean Hayden and you're listening to episode seven of season three of Stage Combat. You're under investigation. Lara's Story. So let's go back to season two of this podcast we dramatized when I discovered I was the subject of a secret investigation while I was employed as an actor at the Goodspeed Opera House. And if you follow this podcast, you know that that investigation was instigated after a vengeful cast member we called Chad brought These false allegations to management. The twist was I was never told about the investigation because I was never supposed to find out. And as we dramatized, I discovered that investigation two full years after I left the opera house. And I only uncovered the information because I filed a lawsuit, I against the Goodspeed Opera House and compel them to hand over their documents. And those documents unlocked the secrets the Goodspeed had kept for me. The fallout from my discovery of that secret investigation was that I developed complex post traumatic stress disorder. Hearing my own story and those dramatizations, one of our listeners reached out to us. A listener who had been the target of a botched workplace investigation. That's the young woman you heard in the cold open of this episode, Laura. And at her request, we are not using her actual name. After meeting Laura on Zoom, I knew we needed to tell her story and that we need to talk about how our employers are failing us when it comes to these workplace investigations, and to ask the question, what, if anything, can we do to prevent those failures? So in a series of interviews, Laura began to share her story with me.

[Laura]

So I'm an actor and director from New England, and I'm married with two kids and some friends, and I started a small fringe theater company together, and I was the artistic director, and I was producing pretty much all of our work. We were sort of had cemented our structure, had a nonprofit status and a board, and we were really excited to grow the company. I was really desperate for it to have some legitimacy. We live in an area of the country where fringe theater doesn't get a lot of respect in the community. And I was working really hard to get that sort of external validation that what I was doing was real and that it mattered.

[Sean Hayden]

Three years after creating the company, Laura noticed a change in her relationship with the associate artistic director.

[Laura]

Communication with my associate artistic director started to get really strange. He got really quiet and, like, monosyllabic in responses. And, you know, we were close friends. Like, we started the company together because we had a personal relationship. And he wasn't acting, he wasn't communicating with me in the way I was accustomed to.

[Sean Hayden]

Your gut told you that something had changed in the relationship?

[Laura]

Yeah, my gut told me something was weird in the relationship. And when I asked him about it, he. He said, oh, no, everything is fine. And he just continued to be really quiet and distant.

[Sean Hayden]

About a week later, Laura received a text message that would change her life. That text was from that associate artistic director.

[Laura]

He sends me a text that says, we got an anonymous secondhand report that you were involved with somebody and they claimed that you were abusive. First of all, this is difficult for me because I'm a queer woman in a relationship with a straight man, and we have an arrangement where he's very supportive of me exploring my sexuality. And I was involved with another bisexual woman who. Who was also married to a man in the same situation. And my friends didn't know about this because I didn't really think it was their business what my sex life looked like. And I also didn't want my kids or my husband to have to deal with me being publicly involved with somebody else. And I just got increasingly uncomfortable and frankly, kind of frightened of this person. And I told her that had to end, and she got very angry.

[Sean Hayden]

An anonymous person who's not the person you were in the relationship with has reached out to the theater to report that you were in a relationship with another person that's not the person reporting it. And that you were, quote, unquote, abusive.

[Laura]

Correct. And there was nothing more specific than that at that time that I was able to get.

[Sean Hayden]

So there's no more specifics. If you were abusive in a violent nature, if you were abusive in an emotional nature, or if you were abusive in a sexual nature.

[Laura]

No, it was a blanket statement. And because it was days after I had finally ended this relationship, I knew exactly who it was and what it was about. And so I was like, I need to talk. Stop texting me. I need to talk to you on the phone. And he made me wait several hours later. And I told him, I said, I know what's going on and let me tell you the truth of this. And he didn't know that I was in an ethically non monogamous relationship because I didn't think, frankly, that was anyone's business. So here I was sort of sharing something that surprised him, that I didn't particularly want to share about my sex life, about my marriage, in order to clear my name. And I told him, I've been going through an incredible amount of stress and fear because this person was scaring me and in part because I thought she might do something exactly like this. And I said, I don't understand how an anonymous and sad secondhand report is carrying more weight with you than me telling you something from my own perspective with all the detail that I could give.

[Sean Hayden]

Had there been any history of complaints with you personally in your capacity as the artistic director of the company prior to all of this?

[Laura]

No, I think I was very well liked and professional. Again, we were all friends, but we were all close, we all worked together, and we had really great personal relationships. So at this moment, he just said, we need you to temporarily step down from leadership while we figure out what's going on.

[Sean Hayden]

So he tells you it's a good idea for you to temporarily step down. And what does he say the next steps are going to be?

[Laura]

All he says is we're going to investigate this, and that's all that I could get.

[Sean Hayden]

Did he give you any idea of what the procedure would be, what your rights would be?

[Laura]

No.

[Sean Hayden]

What the road map was?

[Laura]

No, I basically I was like, supposed to just sit around and wait while they investigated me. And that's all that I knew.

[Sean Hayden]

And this investigation would be handled by whom? Did he tell you?

[Laura]

He did not tell me.

[Sean Hayden]

He doesn't tell you if a third party's coming in to do an impartial investigation? He doesn't tell you if it's going to be the board, if it's going to be other staff members?

[Laura]

Nope. He said we. And all that he would say is me and several other company members who I found out later were just. It was arbitrary. It was just the people that he had the closest friendships with.

[Sean Hayden]

And when you say company, is this the acting company?

[Laura]

Yeah. Although because it was a small fringe company, everybody had multiple roles to kind of keep the company functioning.

[Sean Hayden]

To your knowledge, did any of these people have any expertise in conducting workplace investigations?

[Laura]

No, none at all.

[Sean Hayden]

Did any of these people have legal backgrounds?

[Laura]

No.

[Sean Hayden]

Did any of these people have a background in human resources management?

[Laura]

Nobody had a background in human resources or law or anything like that.

[Sean Hayden]

For Laura, this call accelerated a series of thoughts for her.

[Laura]

I thought, I'm losing all my friends, I'm losing everything I've built, and my private life is going to become public business. I felt humiliated and ashamed and misunderstood very quickly. Yeah. And I think, you know, having gone to therapy for a few years after this all went down, I know that it was activating some, like, very deep seated trauma that I already had existing. I talked to another friend, my best friend, who's not involved in the company, and she told me, like, you're. You're triggered right now. Like you're not. This is. Your reaction is out of proportion. But for me, I felt like. I really felt like the world was ending. And I felt like everybody hated me.

[Sean Hayden]

I have to say, I don't find this out of proportion. What you've just described to me, you know, there's a lot of things happening all at once, is the frustration of how vague and secondhand, the allegation is how it's infringing upon your professional life and how it's infringing upon your personal life. That has been a private matter. I don't find that out of proportion.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, thank you. That's validating to hear. And, you know, and I called my husband, and he was immediately on my side and furious at my former friend. And he was at work, and he just said, just like, just hang in there. Hang in there until I get home, and we're going to figure this out. But he was on my side, and I wish that had grounded me at that time, but it didn't. I was just spinning out.

[Sean Hayden]

Just you saying spinning out. I mean, that was the title of one of our episodes in Stage Combat. Right, right.

[Laura]

That's true.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Laura]

It's a relatable feeling.

[Sean Hayden]

And, Laura, when you say you're spinning out, is there a feeling that you don't have any control over the situation?

[Laura]

Yes, I felt completely out of control. And a huge part of it was that I didn't know what I was being accused of. So I spent the afternoon having essentially just a panic attack that was lasting for hours that I was trying to keep under control because I was also parenting my children, and I had to hold it together for them. But inside, everything was falling apart.

[Sean Hayden]

So it's that evening that things take a dark turn for Laura.

[Laura]

So in the evening, when my children are about to go to bed, I start drinking. I drink a whole bottle of wine. And those thoughts are continuing to race through my head. I'm imagining being labeled as a sexual predator. I'm imagining being seen as abusive. I'm imagining never making theater again. I'm imagining losing all of my friends. And I'm feeling just. I'm feeling terror and shame, and I'm basically just telling myself there's no way to make anybody believe me. And I just. I get to a really dark place. I intentionally overdosed on some medication, and I go outside and lay down in my hammock and think, this is it. And now then I wake up and I'm being put into an ambulance, taken to the emergency room, and I end up being hospitalized for a week.

[Sean Hayden]

How are you doing right now?

[Laura]

I'm all right.

[Sean Hayden]

It's tough. I know. I know.

[Laura]

It's hard to go back there. And part of me is ashamed that there's a lot of shame around having done that over what now feels like so stupid, but at the time felt.

[Sean Hayden]

So huge, you know, shame that you felt in such despair. So quickly.

[Laura]

Yeah, I think. And when I still had people who loved me, I mean, my husband was on my side, I still had friends who were going to stand up for me, but it was just this idea that I couldn't control or understand why the people who I had trusted and given so much to were so quick to turn on me.

[Sean Hayden]

What did the company mean to you?

[Laura]

Oh, God, it meant a lot. It was. I felt like it was the company I'd always sort of dreamed of building. The mission was really close to my heart, but a lot of my identity was wrapped up in this company. You know, like, seeing myself as a real artist, seeing myself as a creative person, seeing myself as a friend and part of my creative community was all wrapped up in this company. And I felt like if I was able to. If I was able to have this, then I was a real theater artist. Then I wasn't just aspiring or I wasn't just struggling. I had made something and it was mine.

[Sean Hayden]

And so the potential loss of your identity, loss of being a part of this company, that was devastating for you.

[Laura]

It was. It was really devastating. And in the meantime, I texted my associate artistic director, and I said, just so you know, before they take my phone away, I'm being hospitalized. And he said, oh, no. And that was it.

[Sean Hayden]

Wow. Laura, once they're aware that you're in the hospital, what is the communication from anyone at the company during that week you're in the hospital?

[Laura]

I got one text from one person saying, I don't know what to say, but I'm glad you're all right. And that was it.

[Sean Hayden]

Did anyone come to visit you in the hospital?

[Laura]

No. No.

[Sean Hayden]

I assume there weren't any cards or flowers, Laura.

[Laura]

No, there was nothing.

[Sean Hayden]

What did that feel like?

[Laura]

I felt abandoned and I felt angry. I was really angry.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, it's interesting is I don't want to equate, and I'm not equating our situations, but I. You can't help but think this. I remember, think after my collapse, and as I'm sobbing in the wings, I remember thinking, oh, they're going to see how bad the situation is and that they should have done something, you know?

[Laura]

Yes. I don't mind you comparing our situations at all, Sean, because listening to that first season was so cathartic for me because I felt like, oh, my God, here's somebody who knows what I've been through. Yeah, I really did feel that. So, yeah, I thought people would see how much I was hurting and they would feel some empathy for me.

[Sean Hayden]

It's like after something devastating has happened to you personally, you think, oh, this will make people fix things, this will make people have a come to Jesus moment, you know, and then it doesn't happen.

[Laura]

Yeah. I think it was shocking to me that like, I clearly had so much personal stake and was so affected emotionally and then there was this anonymous, unspecific, faceless to them person who had no like there. The investment wasn't. I just didn't see how they could look at me and see what I was going through and feel more empathy for somebody who they had never even spoken to.

[Sean Hayden]

Let me ask you this, if on the day that you made the attempt on your life, if someone had just met with you in person and said, look, we had this allegation come in, but we're going to have an impartial investigation, we're going to follow these procedures and we're going to fully apprise you and give you an opportunity to speak. Just sit tight and we will handle this in a measured and impartial way. Obviously that still would have been distressing.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Do you think that would have potentially changed anything for you that day?

[Laura]

I do. I think that it being over the phone and it being so nebulous what was going to happen and what I'd been accused of made it really frightening and alienating.

[Sean Hayden]

About three weeks after Laura was discharged from the hospital, there was another secret she learned about. She learned that a mysterious Google form had been disseminated amongst the company while she was hospitalized.

[Laura]

I didn't find out until later when the board asked me, did you hear about the Google form or do you know about the Google form? And I said, no. What's that? And this board member said, without our knowledge, the associate artistic director and his.

[Sean Hayden]

Self appointed committee who were members of the acting company.

[Laura]

That's correct, created and disseminated a Google form soliciting reports about me.

[Sean Hayden]

And just to clarify, by board, you're referring to the board of trustees for the company, correct?

[Laura]

I still don't know what questions were on there, I don't know what was said.

[Sean Hayden]

So you don't know if the Google form was asking if they knew anything about this personal relationship or whether they were just asking questions about how you conducted yourself as the artistic director or both?

[Laura]

Yeah, I think it was just open ended.

[Sean Hayden]

Open ended. Do you have anything bad to say about Laura, basically, Right?

[Laura]

Yep. Pretty. Yeah, that seems to be what it was.

[Sean Hayden]

And at this point you still haven't been questioned, Right. No one's asked for, asked you any Questions or your side of whatever this nebulous thing is that they're looking into.

[Laura]

When I found this out, it just made me feel like this was getting bigger, as opposed to being contained or controlled. I could not wrap my head around the. It felt malicious. It didn't feel like due diligence. It felt, at best, really misguided and irresponsible and at worst, malicious.

[Sean Hayden]

Do you think the associate artistic director. Was there any motivation, do you believe in the way that he acted? Was there some sort of judgment by him about your personal life?

[Laura]

A hundred percent.

[Sean Hayden]

You do think that's what was going on?

[Laura]

I really do. I think, you know, we're in theater. I don't think anybody has any issues with queerness, But I think the fact that I'm married, the fact that I'm not openly queer and the fact that he didn't know about it, I think was a big issue.

[Sean Hayden]

There was some sort of, you believe, morality judgment that he was imposing upon you.

[Laura]

Yes, because otherwise, I didn't see what this had to do with anything. You know, it wasn't somebody in the company. It wasn't anybody that had worked with the company.

[Sean Hayden]

At any point. Does anyone tell you they have imposed confidentiality restrictions on anyone who is part of this investigation or anyone that they're interviewing?

[Laura]

No. It is. The Wild west is kind of what it feels like. And it feels like they're in over their heads.

[Sean Hayden]

I mean, this is, you know, what I was experiencing when I found out about my investigation. I still to this day don't know who got that information, who was interviewed, and certainly the person that made the allegation. There were no restrictions put upon him. I got complex post traumatic stress disorder because my mind was spinning. Oh, my God. It's worse than what I knew. And it's two years after the fact. How much has that spread in two years?

[Laura]

I couldn't even go into a theater like you for about two years because I didn't know who knew what.

[Sean Hayden]

And the thought is, when they look at me, what are they thinking?

[Laura]

Yes. All the time. And that's part of that complex ptsd, right, is that it's not a single event. It goes on and on and on.

[Sean Hayden]

It's re. Traumatization.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

And so when you finally meet with the board, what happens?

[Laura]

They inform me that they had instructed the associate AD to stop investigating, to delete the Google form and all the responses, and that I was to be. I'm back in charge of the company immediately, and that they should have Been informed from the beginning this was not the associate ad or any other company member's place to do this, and that we were going to put in place some bylaws about company ethics immediately that sort of outlined what to do if any kind of accusation was is made, and that's to go directly to the board.

[Sean Hayden]

So they actually took actions to prevent what happened to you from happening again?

[Laura]

Yes, that was their first priority. And I thought, that's great. And my priority was I wanted to be absolved. I wanted these people to apologize to me and take responsibility. And we had a company meeting, and I kind of waited for an apology, and one never came. And so, you know, again, my husband is just absolutely fired up on my behalf, and he's encouraging me to get information about the Google form and the investigation. So I can really see, like, how much damage has been done to me personally and professionally. And I sent a list of questions to the associate ad saying, I want to know what was on the Google form, who came up with the questions, who was it sent to, and who responded. And the response to me asking these questions was for everybody who was on this committee to just quit the company rather than take any responsibility.

[Sean Hayden]

Is that what happened?

[Laura]

That is exactly what happened. They all just quit.

[Sean Hayden]

Was that shocking to you?

[Laura]

Yeah, I was shocked. I couldn't believe how I was willing to try to repair things. And they weren't willing to not only apologize, they weren't willing to tell me the truth about what they had done.

[Sean Hayden]

Did that include the associate artistic director?

[Laura]

It did, yes.

[Sean Hayden]

So he left the company.

[Laura]

Mm.

[Sean Hayden]

Did you ever consider legal action?

[Laura]

I did. And I think that is part of what scared them is because I said, if you don't answer these questions, I'm just gonna have a lawyer ask you. It didn't make sense to me ultimately to keep pursuing to recover anything, you know, not legally. And, you know, I could have kept running the company and tried to rebuild it, but it didn't. There was no joy in it anymore.

[Sean Hayden]

What happened to the company?

[Laura]

I told the board, I don't think I can continue to be artistic director right now. I need to step away from my mental health. And that was a really hard, really painful decision. And from what I understand, the board went to the remaining company members and there were few, and asked if anybody else would be willing to step up and run the company, and nobody was. So it folded.

[Sean Hayden]

Laura never heard from the associate artistic director again, nor from the woman who was at the center of the second hand anonymous allegation. My conversations With Laura really affected me because none of what she went through had to have happened. I'm left with so many questions about what's going on in our workplaces and I knew just the person to speak with with for that conversation. So, Mark, it's really great to talk to you in this episode, lawyer to lawyer.

[Mark Carey]

Thanks for having me today.

[Sean Hayden]

That's Mark Carey, who is an employment attorney in Connecticut. He represents employees who have been wronged by their employers. I'm not an employment lawyer, you know, I work in real estate and trust and estates. Although in my own employment story that we told in this podcast in the first two seasons, I did have to learn a lot about employment law being a litigant myself. So, you know, just hearing this story from Laura and how it's another example of a botched employer investigation, as my story at the Goodspeed Opera House was a botched investigation. I gotta ask you the question that's probably on everyone's minds hearing both of these stories. How do you have an impartial and fair investigation without interviewing the accused?

[Mark Carey]

You don't. You don't have one. These investigations are done primarily for the benefit and only benefit of the employer, not the employees.

[Sean Hayden]

So that's a pretty radical idea that most employees don't realize.

[Mark Carey]

Well, they don't realize it because employers don't tell them about this. And employees are deliberately kept in the dark about anything related to their employment rights. Not surprised to hear, you know, the tragedy of this woman's story.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, and in my own story, I didn't even know there was investigation. I only found out because there was a lawsuit and I got my HR documents and oh, look, I find out two years later there's an investigation. So what is going on when employers are doing, we'll talk about how well they're doing those investigations.

[Mark Carey]

Right.

[Sean Hayden]

But they're not even informing the employer employee who is under investigation that there is an actual investigation, quote, unquote going on.

[Mark Carey]

It's a self serving process for the employers only. And they never tell you the results of the investigation, so. And it's not transparent. They say the official investigation, it's a process designed to create an affirmative defense for the employer, as in your case and as in the woman's case.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And so, you know, what I saw in my own case was they used those words. It was in the emails. We have launched an official investigation. They used that phrase in the litigation. That was their defense. Oh, we conducted an official investigation. So we did our job and we took the action we needed. To do based upon the investigation. And then the attorney has to get into there and try to show how the investigation was sort of a sham and it was botched. But that's sort of the idea of what happens, what an employer is looking at down the road to protect themselves. Themselves.

[Mark Carey]

That's very common. Your experience is common as well. So just reiterate. The investigation is not for the purposes of the employee. It's not to provide any indicia of truth or a verdict of what had happened. It's not that at all.

[Sean Hayden]

So what we see a lot in the theater industry is that when an employer wants to get rid of an employee, most of the contracts they can only be terminated for just cause. So they will start some sort of investigation. Is what happened in my case to try to build that file for just cause. If you're representing an employee, what are you looking for to attack the integrity and the way that that investigation was conducted in the employer's effort to find just cause?

[Mark Carey]

The more arbitrary the answer, the more fictitious it is, the likelier that there's not going to be a for cause basis to terminate the employee.

[Sean Hayden]

So it would come down to basic factors I guess we would look at in any case, you know, what was the credibility of your witnesses, who did you talk to, what was your procedures that you followed, things like that.

[Mark Carey]

Right, right, right.

[Sean Hayden]

How important is confidentiality in conducting workplace investigations? Because in spite of all the valid claims, and we want employees to be able to bring valid claims, anybody can walk in with an allegation. And so there's not a need to know, confidentiality restriction placed, then the worst heinous allegations which may be false can be just spread throughout the workplace, destroying that employee's reputation. And that employee finds out causing really severe mental health problems.

[Mark Carey]

Well, this is approaching the topic of defamation in the workplace caused by other workers who are breeding and putting out scandalous information that injures the reputation of individuals outside of their presence. Which is the definition of defamation, which can be written in written or it can be in verbal form. So the employer has to be aware of that because the employer can become part of that liability if it propagates it in any way. If it doesn't stop it. Employers have an exception to defamation and the exception is very narrow. And it's just that is the topic or the statement of defamation or the person who's making it is doing it for business purpose. And the further away from business purpose you get, the more likely the employer is going to be liable for defamation itself, whether it's condoning or being complicit with.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, those were part of the claims that were made in my lawsuit. And also it was the defamation extended because the allegation was made employer. You're repeating things that you found out were false and or you did not investigate. So there was a recklessness to spreading that information. So that's where an employer can get in trouble with defamation. Correct, Right.

[Mark Carey]

That does happen a lot.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, Mark, I'm struck by not only my case, Laura's case, but just other cases that I've read is how many times the people conducting these quote unquote investigations have no clue what they're doing.

[Mark Carey]

Yeah. Where did they go to school for it? You can go to Cornell and you can get a degree in hr, but I will tell you that that doesn't make you fully aware or experienced in all things employment. So I don't believe employers have the money or time and energy to deal and train people appropriately. I don't think there's training period of supervisors. I think there's also HR personnel claim that they have experience in training, but I doubt that as well because why am I so busy? Why am I so busy for the last 27 years as an employment lawyer representing employees and there's hundreds of people like me across the country. So we're out there on the front lines policing the employer and their activities. And everyone has to understand that the employers, their first game tactic is to take a risk, a gamble that they're not going to get caught. And it happens all the time.

[Sean Hayden]

I think you hit it on the head in terms of are these employers making a decision that we will take the risk because we won't get caught? And that is so much, I think caused by. They are aware of what the power dynamic is, particularly in the arts. They are aware that they have all the power when it comes to their position versus the actor performing artists way at the bottom. And so from their standpoint, there seems to be no risk for them because they do get away with it over and over.

[Mark Carey]

That is true. And my job, I guess my philosophical and legal job is to expose employers.

[Sean Hayden]

And you know, beyond the idea of exposing employers, what I wanted was an apology and Laura did too. I just wanted a retraction to the people that I professionally worked with to say that those things weren't true.

[Mark Carey]

I will say that I've only seen about two apologies in 27 years.

[Sean Hayden]

They just don't happen unless it's say a high dollar celebrity case. And oftentimes that apology is leveraged as part of a money settlement.

[Mark Carey]

Right.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, Mark, where employers are really missing the mark and could really avoid getting into so much trouble is when they rob their employees of dignity and humanity. In my personal case, I was fired over the telephone. Laura said that the manner that. When she found out about her investigation, that was all on the phone. And she said she just felt like if someone had just sat with her, someone competent and laid out what they were going to do, how they were going to protect her, she thinks that would have changed the way things spiraled out of control for her that day with her mental health. What are employers really missing?

[Mark Carey]

It's a great question, and I spent a lot of time thinking about this. It's essentially the trust loyalty factor of the employees with their employers. The more that they're seen as a number by employers, and there's a whole topic of discussion about this is actually a whole industry. It's called, for lack of a better phrase, employee engagement. But the root of it is, as you described it, is at the exit. The woman wanted a level of human compassion between the two that is just absent from this relationship, this relationship that is defined by employers, not defined by employees. The employees don't get to say how their employers get to behave in the relationship. Employers dictate this outcome. Remember this private government, you work there, that's it. You follow the rules. So, yeah, a little more care and compassion on the way out.

[Sean Hayden]

Mark, let me ask you about this lack of transparency that we have in our jobs. I mean, shouldn't we have a right to know if we have been a subject of an investigation at some point, whether it's during the employment, leaving the job? Do we have any rights to say, hey, have I been the subject of an investigation?

[Mark Carey]

The answer is no, you don't have any rights to it.

[Sean Hayden]

Wow.

[Mark Carey]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Unless you have filed a lawsuit like I did and get my personnel file.

[Mark Carey]

There are no statutes on the books that say that you have a right to obtain information about any investigation about you unless you work for the state, which, you know, you can, FOIA Freedom of Information act requests. But no, that's the nature of the. Of the game.

[Sean Hayden]

Let me just restate that then. So I could be working at a job. I could have been falsely. I'm saying anyone could have been falsely accused of sexual assault, theft, embezzlement, harassment. They could have conducted investigation, found nothing to it, but it was spread to many, many people. And I could leave that job and have no clue that that happened. And I would have no Right. To discover that happened.

[Mark Carey]

That's correct.

[Sean Hayden]

Wow.

[Mark Carey]

If you had a colleague who is a friend who shared information externally to you after you left, then you can come back and do something about it. But no, generally there's no legal rights to obtain that information while you work there or thereafter unless you sue for it, unless you make accusation of a defamation claim.

[Sean Hayden]

Mark, thank you for talking with me. I think that this has been a very sobering conversation. A few weeks later, I checked back in with Laura. So, Laura, it's good to see you you again. I want to know how you've been doing since we last talked.

[Laura]

I am still healing. You know, this is the second anniversary of everything going down. I think that hopefully it'll get better with time. But it seems like for the last two years the anniversary of that trauma has come with more rumination on the events and some depression. I am in therapy. I have a great therapist and I'm working really hard on knowing that what other people think of me isn't who I am.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Laura]

And just feeling complete, you know, that knowing myself and feeling certain about my own character, my own actions is enough. I don't need to prove it to anybody. But I still have, you know, I have those wonderful friends who were there for me in those weeks following the events are still some of my closest friends were all going away for my 40th birthday party in a few weeks. So I like, I have a social life, I have love in my life. My husband and my kids are great. And I'm still being creative, albeit in a different way that does not depend on other people in the same way as running a theater company did.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, you know, I think what you said, I think it's good advice for anyone to protect yourself and to take care of yourself in case something like this could happen to you is one be on top of your mental health, have a therapist. Right. Even for maintenance and to invest in relationships which are not in the theater.

[Laura]

Yes.

[Sean Hayden]

Because probably those are the people who are going to be there for you, right?

[Laura]

Yes. Yeah. And I think giving my non theater friends credit that they. I can still talk to them about my creative pursuits went a really long way too, I think I thought for a long time I compartmentalized and I was like, these are the friends I can talk about myself as a creative with. These are my friends I can talk about myself as a parent with. These are my friends I can reminisce about being young with. And the truth is good friends, whether they're in the theater industry or not they're gonna want to hear about the thing that lights you up.

[Sean Hayden]

I believe good friends will.

[Mark Carey]

Yes.

[Sean Hayden]

Laura, I just want to really thank you for your courage in sharing your story with us. And we're going to be checking in with you and see how you're doing in your healing journey.

[Laura]

Thank you.

[Sean Hayden]

So is there anything else you want to say?

[Laura]

I feel pretty good right now.

[Sean Hayden]

The optimistic part of me, part of me that wants to believe change is possible believes this, that there is power in storytelling, that the power of me telling my story and Laura telling her story could change things with employers and particularly theater producers when it comes to how they handle workplace investigations. And if they are listening to this podcast, and we know there are theater producers who do listen to this podcast, will they say to themselves, maybe there's a red alarm situation when it comes to employee investigations. Maybe we need to up our game. Maybe we need to learn to do these things correctly and do everything we can to minimize harm to our employees. So we need more stories like mine and like Laura's to come forward to build awareness about the issue and to pressure our employers. We need to stand up for ourselves when we see these investigations spiraling up of control, and we need to stand up for each other. And right now, I'm standing up for Laura. I'm pretty sure that you are as well. Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat, the one person autobiographical show has been having a bit of a moment. Last year, actor Anthony Rapp took the stage to share his story about death and grief. In his show without you, comedian Mike Berbeglioff performed his coming of middle age story, the Old man and the Pool at Lincoln center, where it was filmed for Netflix. And in this episode, we are following two very different solo performers with two very different stories.

[Laura]

The fact that somebody thought that I could be bipolar, I just, you know, the stigma in my brain was. Doesn't that mean, like, absolutely bonkers and crazy? So, yeah, it just wasn't on my radar.

[Sean Hayden]

I just woke up in the middle of the night and my mind was on this crazy doomsday loop. I woke up and I thought, what is going on? And we'll find out how. They each claimed their own mental health stories publicly with their own one person shows.

[Laura]

I'm still not comfortable. I'm okay with talking about the bipolar disorder, because that's me. It's harder for me to, like, go tell an audience that I don't know about my mom.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, interestingly enough, when I decided just to do the show, the reason why was just because I couldn't think of anything else but my anxiety. I'm Sean Hayden and this is episode 8 of season 33 of Stage Combat putting it out there. Your mental health story on the stage that's coming up. Hey, Stage Combat listeners. The conversation continues over at Patreon with our Backstage Pass employment attorney, Mark Carey. And I get real about employers and HR departments. Employees need to realize that HR is not there for the employee. HR is there to protect the employer. Correct, Mark?

[Mark Carey]

Absolutely. 100%. No if, ands or buts. The most common misconception that I get on people calling me, you know, seeking I need help is that they had this undeniable trust that HR was going to do the right thing. Yes, again, I'm breaking the stereotype that HR is not your friend, because they are not.

[Sean Hayden]

And I'll be going off script to dive deeper into this episode. Right now, our Backstage Pass holders are enjoying an all new episode of our acting podcast, Just Acting. And we're talking about returning to acting class. We've talked about guru teachers on our podcast before and I think that that's the fear is that sometimes you may be in a class that isn't as supportive as you have both spoken about your acting class like might be more manipulative, might be more geared towards the teacher as guru as opposed to the teacher as supportive and it's okay to leave a class like you don't have to stay. And if you believe in what we doing in this podcast and you want us to continue to do our work here at Stage Combat, the best way to support us is to join us over at Patreon. Just follow the link in the show notes. A reminder that the content in this episode is not medical advice. Please consult with a medical and or a mental health care professional. And remember, if you you or someone you know is in crisis, help is always available by contacting the suicide and crisis lifeline. You can call or text 988. That's 98824 hours a day. Also, just a note that this episode should not be construed as legal advice. Please consult with an attorney. Do you have a story to tell? Send us a DM at Instagramtagecombatthepodcast IG or email [e-mail] I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions llc.