Dr. Nimali Fernando on How Kids Can Explore New Foods

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Talkaboutable with Dr. Susan Swick
Episode: Dr. Nimali Fernando on How Kids Can Explore New Foods
Release Date: May 26, 2026
Host: Dr. Susan Swick (child and adolescent psychiatrist, mother of four)
Guest: Dr. Nimali Fernando (pediatrician, founder of the Dr. Yum Project)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the challenges around children’s eating habits and how parents can foster a healthy, adventurous eating environment. Dr. Susan Swick and guest Dr. Nimali Fernando discuss why the label "picky eater" can be problematic, how to reframe both parental and child approaches to mealtime, and practical, developmentally-informed strategies for supporting kids in their exploration of new foods. The episode also highlights the Dr. Yum Project’s engaging curriculum and the broader emotional and developmental benefits of shared family meals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rethinking the "Picky Eater" Label

[04:06–09:35]

• Complex Emotions Around "Picky Eater": Dr. Fernando explains that while "picky eater" is a common term, it’s not always helpful:

  “It is a word that is complicated… because what we’re telling a child when we call them a picky eater is that is their identity, that they or someone around them has failed, and there is no hope for them to learn to eat these foods.” (Dr. Fernando, 06:18)

• Eating as a Developmental Process: The process of learning to eat should be treated like learning to read:

  “When a child struggles to read, we don’t blame the parents… we explore, we repeat, we provide evidence-based strategies, support and uplift the child… If we can apply that same framework to feeding, we would not use that term ‘picky eater.’” (Dr. Fernando, 05:37 and 06:18)

• Growth Mindset Language: Dr. Fernando suggests alternative terms—“exploring eater,” “practicing eater,” or “learning eater”—fostering curiosity and persistence.
• Curiosity Modeling: Both adults and children benefit when curiosity and willingness to try are modeled, even if adults themselves are not adventurous eaters.

Practical Strategies for Parents

[09:35–11:52, 24:36–28:41]

• Modeling Curiosity: Adults don’t have to love every food but should show a willingness to try and explore with children.

  “You don’t have to like everything… it might be OK to say, ‘you know what, I’m still practicing peppers too… but what I’m showing them is I’m curious and I’m willing to practice.’” (Dr. Fernando, 10:03)

• De-pressure Mealtime: Reduce anxiety by focusing on enjoyment and exploration, not just food consumption.
• Not Overusing Praise or Rewards: Overly enthusiastic reactions or rewards for trying foods may add stress or create unhelpful dynamics:

  “The research really doesn’t show that rewards around food are necessarily helpful… you get this great thing if you eat this bad thing. And broccoli is exciting and wonderful too, right?” (Dr. Fernando, 27:01)

• Vitamin Supplements: Most children may not need them, but they can provide parents "insurance" if concerned about deficiencies, though fiber and phytonutrients are still missing from vitamins.

  "Most kids who are eating an average American diet probably don't need them, but it can be a great way, kind of an insurance policy." (Dr. Fernando, 25:46)

The Dr. Yum Project & Food Adventure Curriculum

[20:34–23:42]

• Sensory Food Adventures: Each adventure is centered on a fruit or vegetable (e.g., broccoli, pomegranate), involving tactile, olfactory, and descriptive engagement before tasting.
• Building Skills: Children use real (child-safe) knives, practice cooking skills, and learn about nutrition in hands-on ways—even as young as 2 years old.
• Broader Developmental Benefits: This approach also helps children generalize growth mindset language (“I’ve got to practice that strawberry because it tastes sour in my mouth”) to other learning contexts, boosting overall resilience.

Parental Anxiety, Shame, and Developmental Perspective

[28:41–33:03]

• Normalizing Challenges: Many parents feel shame or anxiety about their children’s restricted diets.

  “I find shame is the enemy of effort and offering.” (Dr. Swick, 28:41) “50% of parents of 2 year olds, they think their child is a picky eater. This is very common.” (Dr. Fernando, 30:44)

• Developmental Shifts: After 12 months, children’s appetites naturally decrease; parents should be prepared for less interest in food between 18 months and two years.

  “You will be lucky to get one or two good meals into your toddler.” (Dr. Fernando, 32:08)

• Division of Responsibility (Ellen Satter Model):
  • Parents decide what, when, where.
  • Children decide if and how much.

  “If they’re hungry enough to eat it, they will eat it. If they're not, then you bring it back out at the next meal and rinse and repeat.” (Dr. Fernando, 33:03)

Guidance for Older Children

[35:30–39:48]

• Palette Expansion: Rather than focusing on what not to eat, focus on showcasing the "rainbow" of delicious, nourishing options.

  "Nobody likes to be told you can't eat the things you like... our job as parents is to show the rainbow of possibilities that food can be." (Dr. Fernando, 36:26)

• Involving Children: Let older kids’ personalities and skills (engineer/builders, socially attuned, etc.) guide how they get involved in food prep and exploration.

The Deeper Value of Family Mealtime

[39:22–41:17]

• Shared Meals as Emotional/Developmental Support: Family mealtime isn’t just about nutrition; it’s a time for connection, communication, and emotional growth.

  "Kids who share family meals are better able to communicate with adults. They are less likely to make risky decisions or engage in risky behaviors." (Dr. Fernando, 40:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On reframing “picky eating”:

  “What we’re telling a child when we call them a picky eater is that is their identity, that they or someone around them has failed, and there is no hope for them to learn to eat these foods.” (Dr. Fernando, 06:18)

• On the parallel between eating and reading:

  “When a child struggles to read, we don’t blame the child. …If we can apply that same framework to feeding, we would not use that term ‘picky eater,’ would we?” (Dr. Fernando, 05:37–06:18)

• On rewards and pressure:

  “That kind of touchdown… can put a little bit of pressure on children too, whether we mean for it or not. So I think keeping a calm, relaxed attitude around food… providing that calm reassurance and support without overdoing it… can be helpful.” (Dr. Fernando, 27:01–28:41)

• On division of responsibility:

  “Parents decide what, when and where we’re going to eat, and children decide if they’re going to eat and how much. …You bring [the food] back out at the next meal and rinse and repeat.” (Dr. Fernando, 33:03)

• On family meals:

  “Family meals are not just about the food… it is time well spent, not just from a physical standpoint, but from an emotional and growth standpoint too.” (Dr. Fernando, 40:46)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:50: Reframing the role of adults in modeling curiosity and exploration.
• 04:06: Problem with "picky eater" label; treating eating like other developmental skills.
• 10:03: Modeling curiosity even as an adult who’s also “practicing eater.”
• 15:18: Case discussion: Emil, a child with rigid food preferences, family stress, anxiety.
• 20:34: Dr. Yum Project's curriculum and its impact.
• 25:46: Vitamins: pros and cons of supplementation.
• 27:01: Pitfalls of reward-based eating incentives.
• 28:41: How to support parents, normalize challenges, reduce shame.
• 32:08: Toddler eating patterns: natural appetite drop.
• 33:03: Ellen Satter’s division of feeding responsibilities.
• 36:26: Expanding the palate for older kids through positive exposure.
• 39:22: Cooking together and instilling life skills.
• 40:46: The broad developmental value of shared meals.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a hopeful, pragmatic approach for families navigating mealtime stress. Dr. Fernando’s focus on curiosity, repeated exposure, and growth mindset language reshapes parental attitudes and eases anxiety. The Dr. Yum Project provides actionable curriculum and guidance, but the deeper message is affirming: eating is complex and individual, improvement is possible, and supporting children’s self-efficacy and curiosity around food can translate to resilience in all areas of development.

Transcript

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

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[Dr. Namali Fernando]

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[Dr. Susan Swick]

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[Dr. Namali Fernando]

One thing that we help impart in our teachers is this idea that you don't have to like everything that you're exploring with your students. In fact, it might be okay to say, you know what, I'm still practicing peppers too, right? And let's take a practice bite together. But what I'm showing them is I'm curious and I'm willing to practice.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

I'm Dr. Susan Swick, this is Talk About Able. Last week we spoke with Katherine about her son's struggle with food and eating and we thought there was a lot more to get into around kids and food. So today I am joined by Dr. Namali Fernando, a board certified pediatrician and an expert in early childhood nutrition. She's the founder of the Dr. Yum Project, a nonprofit with a mission to help families and communities overcome barriers to eating well. I am so excited to have a chance to learn from her today so we can think together about how do we help parents raise healthy kids and and how do food and eating fit into that? It's one of those things that a lot of us parents assume should be simple, but it is not always so easy. Maybe mealtimes are a full blown battle and we're left stressing out over uneaten plates. Or maybe you have a toddler who's just starting to explore new foods. Whatever stage you might be in, Dr. Fernando has real strategies for us. And before we get into that, we're going to start the conversation with a very common label that we all might need to rethink. So I'm really interested in talking about the term picky eater and whether it's. In some ways, I think I use it quite a bit with families I work with to try to normalize what is a pretty common phenomenon. But I think it also may sometimes have deleterious effects. So I'd love to hear your take on how we approach the challenge of kids that are careful explorers of food and how you approach it.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yeah. It is a word that is complicated, a phrase that is complicated. I have complicated emotions about it because it's the word people use. The phrase people use to describe when there is tension around eating. Right. And we have to be able to identify that tension and talk about it. Parents want to do the right thing. They know nutrition is important. They want their children to eat nutritious foods. But it is just so difficult for so many reasons. Resources, time, heavily marketed foods that make it easy. And also learning to eat is a complicated process and every child goes through that developmental process differently. Right. And so early in my career when I was looking for answers, I thought, I've got to figure out how to bring people into this conversation that understand this better than me. And so I employed the help of a pediatric feeding therapist named Melanie Potok. What I learned from her and her work in helping kids who are more sensitive, careful exploring eaters, as you say, is that we need to think about this development differently and we need to approach every child a little bit differently. And it's as, as if we need to think about feeding as any other developmental process. Like reading. Right?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

When a child struggles to read, we don't blame the parents. We don't, we don't blame the child. Right. We don't call the child a bad reader. Right. As we're teaching them to read, what we do is we explore, we repeat, we provide evidence based strategies, we support and we uplift the child. Right. And we eventually get them across that finish line.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

And in the, in the process, we try to preserve their self esteem and let them know that they're going to learn to read with our.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right, Right, right, right.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

So if we can apply that same framework to feeding, we would not use that term picky eater, would we? Right, Right. Because what we're telling a child when we call them a picky eater is that is their identity, that they or someone around them has failed, and there is no hope for them to learn to eat these foods. And so in our work, we may use the term picky eater because that's what people are looking for when they're searching for answers. Right. But in front of a child, I think there are better ways to explain that or expand upon that. And so we use words like exploring eater or learning eater or adventurous eater or practicing eater. Right. And we really try to use a more growth mindset set of terms when we talk about food so that children know you gotta practice food, just like you practice tying your shoes, just like you practice things that are hard and you get better at. That applies to food and feeding, too. And so I have to sort of gently reframe that language for parents when we're talking, especially in front of kids. When we train people, train teachers on this approach through our food adventure, we give teachers that language too. Right. Instead of saying, oh, it's terrible, I don't like it, which is the first thing that kids want to tell you when they don't like your food is how gross. Right?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

That's right. That's right.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

But instead we're giving them this new language, which is, it's not yet. It's not that. It's. I don't like it. It's hot. It's not yet. I still have to practice because it takes on average 10 to 15 tries for a child to enjoy a novel food. That's a lot of tries, right?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yep, that's a lot of tries.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

It's more tries than some families can provide, frankly.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right, right. I love this conversation because what you're making me think about is the idea. So you maybe you reset a sense of possibility for a child when you go from a kind of rigid diagnosis or frame of you are a picky eater, so that means you don't eat much, but you also, in doing that, you probably create a sense of a possibility for parents who can step back and imagine that the playing field is broader.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yes.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

You know, and I too, have raised four kids now who all were different kinds of eaters. But the idea that not everything that you experience starting with food, but it goes beyond food, you will love and it's okay. It's actually wonderful to explore the world and render your opinion and remain curious. It may evolve, it may change. And it helps parents to sort of hold the idea that our job is not always to make our kids happy or to have every moment be One of the total pleasure. But it's to be next to them as they're developing their vocabulary, their playlists.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yes.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

So that's. Oh, that's so wonderful.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

And you use the word curious, Susan, which I think is also incredibly important, because when a child is learning a skill, they have to have adults around them that are showing them the way. And unfortunately, what I see too often is that this feeding development has been disrupted across generations. And so adults around them, teachers, parents, may not be necessarily modeling that food curiosity. And so one thing that we help impart in our teachers is this idea that you don't have to like everything that you're exploring with your students. In fact, it might be okay to say, you know what, I'm still practicing peppers too. Right. And let's take a practice bite together. But what I'm showing them is I'm curious and I'm willing to practice. Right. And I think that is another part of our approach is to help reframe the approach of the adults in the room with these children and how they approach food. You know, if they've themselves experienced their own hesitant eating, that that's okay. They can still model food curiosity around children.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes, Yes. I love this. Well, and when we think about child development, I spent a lot of time thinking about what creates healthy, resilient adults. Right. And it is cultivating curiosity. And the dog ears for that are sort of childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood. So that kids can really explore all sorts of interests, people, activities, and even their own internal landscape, feelings, thoughts like, that's their job developmentally. And when we get this lovely automatic practice with food in those earliest years, it helps create a fluency with the idea that the world is to be explored. You want to take care that something is safe. You don't eat things that aren't safe. But once you know it's safe, then it's up to you to figure out if you like it and you only know by being curious.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll discuss Katherine, our guest from last week's episode, and together we'll talk about other strategies she could use to help her child navigate his anxiety around food.

[Julie Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Dr. Susan Swick]

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[Dr. Namali Fernando]

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[Dr. Susan Swick]

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[Dr. Namali Fernando]

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[Dr. Susan Swick]

Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful. I have a case then to consult you with. Oh goodness, let's not call it a case. But it's because they're not my patient. But it was a wonderful conversation I had with a mother named Catherine about her 8 year old son who in infancy had a milk intolerance that he apparently has grown out of. But his food playlist has remained small, maybe even smaller, so that he eats now like chicken nuggets noodles with I think it was butter. And the chicken nuggets have to be a certain shape from a certain distributor. They have to be cooked a certain way bread. And the parents have through heroic efforts, gotten him to try tomatoes and tomato sauce.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Amazing.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

And now he'll eat tomato sauce. But it has to be tomato sauce that dad has put into a pot, added a little bit of honey and sugar too and a little more salt. So it's all very specialized. And so Katherine is worried now. Happily he's doing pretty well on his growth chart and his both height and weight and he's doing really well in school. He's sounds like he's on the anxious side of the spectrum, temperamentally, as we wouldn't be surprised by. But he's also very empathic. He's winning awards as best friend at school. So he is mastering some of the normative developmental challenges. But the food issue has the parents so stressed because it affects how much cooking time they spend, how much time they spend at the table. His little brother is starting to mirror the same requests as his cool big brother, and it makes restaurant time and travel really hard. And now Emile, which is this child's name, is also voicing a sense of maybe shame, you know, apologizing a lot, being like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Because he's recognizing how much strain it's causing.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Sure.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

So I can tell you what I said to them, but I really want to hear what you would say to Catherine and how you would approach working with a family if they just joined your practice or came to your food lab.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yeah, I mean, it is. It feels like a very familiar scenario.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

And I will say there are more and more kids like this that we see in general pediatrics. There are more and more kids like this that pediatric feeding therapists see on. On their caseload, you know, having friends in that particular profession. A lot of their caseload used to be very specifically kids with special needs, kids with medical issues. But they're seeing more and more of these sort of garden variety picky eaters, as we might call them, even though we don't like that word.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right, right.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

So, yes, this seems very familiar. I'm happy to hear that the child is growing. It seems like that this is a child who is starting to make some progress, which is wonderful. But what I don't love hearing is how stressful this is for the family. Right. And so what my friends in feeding therapy have taught me is when there is stress, a family needs help. They need more than this is just going to get better or the child is going to grow out of it. Because the moves that we as parents make in response to these challenging eating behaviors often reinforce the behavior. Right. Whether we mean for it to or not. And so I think it's important that we take this very seriously because we want this child to get better.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

We want this child to also. You know, you mentioned there's a younger sibling, and that happens so often where the younger sibling starts to take on the habits of the older sibling who they look up to so much. So for his sake, we want to get a handle on this and give parents the techniques and strategies to right the second child ship as well. So I would want a lot more information about what they're doing, what has worked, what hasn't worked, and if they have had a feeding evaluation with a occupational therapist or a speech language pathologist. So many of these children have anxiety under the surface, some not that deep under the surface. Right. And so there are very special ways that we have to approach children when we're dealing with these eating habits so as to bring them forward and not push them steps back. Right.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

And there are more and more of these kids with arfid. Right. Avoiding restrictive food intake disorder. That requires a specialized team. When a child has arfid, it really does affect their mental health. It can affect their physical health. Even if they're growing, there may be some nutritional deficiencies that we're just not seeing. And so this is something that I think needs a deep dive and for parents to hear, I hear you, I feel your stress, and I'm going to pay attention to this and get you the help that you need.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Wonderful. Some of what we had spoken about was how to help maybe lower the stress level of the family at mealtime and make it easier to explore and get exposed to a few more food types without it being too high pressure. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little more even about the broader Dr. Yum curriculum. It sounds I want to do. I mean, it's too late for my kids, although they're all pretty good eaters. I wish we had it. So tell me more about it.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

So we've provided 24 for adventures. Okay, so each adventure is a fruit or vegetable. Right. So there's a broccoli adventure and a pomegranate adventure and a pineapple adventure. And so during the adventure, there are two parts. The first is that sensory exploration. So everybody circles up. And then the teacher will present the fruit or vegetable. They'll pass it around in circle time. They'll use language to describe it. They'll use all of their senses except for tasting. That happens later. So we will squeak this squeaky broccoli stock and. And listen to how it sounds. We'll touch it, we'll smell it. We'll do all of those things as we're passing it around. We'll use our emerging vocabulary to describe it. We'll learn about how it's grown in other parts of the world and eaten in faraway places. We'll learn about the superpowers of the fruit or vegetable so our registered dietitian went through fruit or vegetable. And when there's more than 10% of a vitamin, mineral or fiber, that is considered its superpower. So it's, it's really fun. The kids will learn. Vitamin C bites, germs, Vitamin K kills your cuts and scrapes. The research shows that kids, they respond to that connection about what food does for their body. So they learn about that, how it grows. We have a little character called my munch bug that shows them the parts of the, the plant that you're going to eat. Is it the root or the flower or the stem? So all of that is a sensory immersion. Yeah, right.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Building that confidence. So that's the first part, and the kids love that. The second part is where they actually get to cook. They're cooking a recipe, they're making a snack actually that they're going to eat with their classmates if they're ready. And so we provide these little knives. They're made by a company called Kuhn Rakan. They look like a little dog. They're steel knives that are very effective but very safe. And we actually teach them knife skills. Starting at such a young age, even 2 year olds can use these knives.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yep.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

So they're chopping, they're zesting, they're juicing, they're using their fine and gross motor skills. What I find so gratifying, which we didn't imagine would happen, is in this process, kids who maybe are having difficulty connecting with the school routine, they find this experiential learning so fun that they're sitting in circle time and they're listening to the story about the pepper. Right. And they're using their fine motor skills to chop it up. And they're engaging and that starts to generalize into the rest of their day and their week. And they're learning that practice is important. And so when they're saying, oh, I got to practice that strawberry because it tastes sour in my mouth, they're then starting to say, like, I gotta practice my shapes too. I've gotta practice counting. So the teachers tell us that this growth mindset language does start to generalize and it starts to build this resiliency too. Right?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Oh, I love this. It's so. So. And this is preschoolers.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

This is like, yeah, yeah. So two, typically to about five. But I will say we have some preschools that have infant toddler programs that are doing the adventure, even with infants and toddlers in a way that's developmentally appropriate. But I get pictures from these schools of, you know, six month old sitting next to a cauliflower and, you know, touching the cauliflower. So the longer Runway these kids have, the more practice they have and more receptive they have. And then we use the adventure for kids even in we're starting in some kindergarten classrooms. And then we have a group of feeding therapists that use this for kids who may have more challenges with eating in feeding groups and that can be up to 8, 10 years old.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

We're going to take one last break and we'll be right back with Dr. Namali. Fernando, One of the things that I was thinking after speaking with Catherine was that the starting point maybe really needed to be helping. We talked about cooking together and making good use of this very helpful engineer of an 8 year old, but also to try to make sure the meal time was less stressful and was fun and was delightful. What else do you think they need? Do you recommend that parents give their children vitamin supplements so they're not as worried about getting the full complement of every vitamin every day and they can create a little more wiggle room for exploring foods knowing they're also not grossly in deficit of calcium or vitamin D? What else do you recommend for them?

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yes. So I think a lot of parents do worry about nutritional deficiencies and vitamins can ease that worry a little bit. Most kids who are eating an average American diet probably don't need them, but it can be a great way, kind of an insurance policy. Right. What they don't provide though is the fiber and the phytonutrients. So we can't rely on that. Right. We always have to be trying to move forward. They'll often have kids make it in the office like, hey, okay, you're going to make a stir fry tonight and I want you to like send me a picture of you making it. And they'll just have them just dial in the recipe, they'll print it out in the office, they'll send them home with it, and then they may send their pediatrician back a picture of them making Susan's special stir fry. So it's, it's tangible, it's practical, it's fun, it's genius. Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

One of the things that Katherine had tried was to really focus on rewards and trying to offer her son special rewards that weren't food but for trying food. And I think it hadn't been so helpful. What's your take on building a star system or a reward system around eating or eating different foods?

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yeah, rewards are something that parents naturally want to try because they can be helpful in some cases, but the research really doesn't show that rewards around food are necessarily helpful. And in some cases, it can create a dynamic. So sometimes parents, you know, they may actually use food to reward trying other foods. Right. So if you say, like, I'll give you this cupcake if you try this broccoli, what you're not meaning to say, but saying indirectly is, I'll give you this great thing if you eat this bad thing. Right. And broccoli is exciting and wonderful too. Right. So we. Right. We shouldn't necessarily create a hierarchy or treat food as punishing. So you get this great thing in response to it. So I don't love food rewards as a strategy in general or rewarding around food. And I think sometimes too, just being calm, you know, we get really desperate as parents to see our children do the right thing. And when they do, sometimes we. We get so elated and we. Yes. And so excited and so excited. And that kind of touchdown. Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

That can put a little bit of pressure on children too, whether we mean for it too or not. So I think sort of keeping a calm, relaxed attitude around food. Wow. You tried it. That's great. Let's do that. Let's on to the next thing. You know, providing that calm reassurance and support without overdoing it over. Rewarding and over praising, I think can be helpful.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes. I love that. One of the things. And I heard this from Katherine and I hear it from lots of parents, I experienced it myself to some degree. How do you help protect parents against the sense of shame that can come when their kids either aren't easy eaters or easy explorers. How do you. I find shame is the enemy of effort and offering. I have a mom I know who used to describe her child and say, well, she only ate Cheerios and bologna for the first six years of life, and she turned out okay as a way of sort of decompressing the panic and the shame. But I don't want to suggest it doesn't matter. Like, we would never let our kids not learn to read, you know, or not. And so how do you energize and empower parents to stick with it without feeling shame?

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yeah. I think a lot of it goes back to drawing that parallel to other developmental skills and show parents, you know, this isn't easy because every child is different. Right. You think you may know how to do it maybe with one child, and then it's a different experience with the second child. There's not a great playbook for Every child. And so a lot of us struggle. And I think, you know, early in my discovery of how to help families, I drew upon my own experience as a mom. And I would share that. You know, this isn't easy for me either. I have two children with two different styles. One took 12 years to love tomatoes, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I would say, okay, you, you still don't love it? Well, you know, we'll try again. We'll take a practice bite again next week. And so I think humanizing this process and personalizing it too, and showing families you're not alone. You know, 50% of parents of 2 year olds, they think their child is a picky eater. This is very common. Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Wow. Oh, that's incredible. Oh, I love that. And giving them a sense of time is so incredible. Like, imagine if parents didn't know something about how long it takes their infant to learn to sit or to pull, to stand or to take a first step. There might be a lot more panic among parents. So I love that idea of offering some good information and reminding them that in some ways keep on showing up.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

So I'm wondering if there is something that you say, so we have 50% of parents of two year olds that think their child is a picky eater. Is there something you wish all those parents could sort of hear? A little mantra, a little reminder to themselves that will help them kind of stay in the game and stay the course? Because not all those kids are actually picky eaters.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

That's right. That's right. So one thing that I always do with parents at age one is I congratulate them for doing a great job. Because all parents, they want to do the right thing and they're offering all these foods. And kids are very hungry in that first year. If you look at their growth curve, it's straight up. Right. So metabolically, they need a lot of food, so they will eat anything you offer, Right?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

What happens though, after a year is that growth curve takes a turn. Right. And so. So toddlers grow in ounces, not pounds, Right?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

They don't need as much food, they don't need as much fuel. They're not growing as fast. And they're also learning a whole bunch of new things. They're learning how to say no. They're learning how to explore their environment. So very predictably, between 18 months and two, their children aren't going to be interested in food nearly as much as they were. So what I do at age one is I set the expectation, enjoy these last Months where your child is hungry for everything, you're going to notice a real drop in their appetite and you will be lucky to get one or two good meals into your toddler. Right.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

So helpful. Yes.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

So then they are not worried when they're not eating everything they put in front of them.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

They're lowering their expectations, they're putting less food on the plate, they're less frustrated if they hear they ate wonderfully at daycare but they didn't eat great at home. They're not worried because they got that healthy meal outside of the home. Right. It just, it just changes the expectations and lowers that anxiety when that predictable change happens. And so I tell parents, just hang on. Your child will seem more eager and hungry. Around age four. These are the lean years. Right. So we're, we're just going to put food in front, we're going to follow. There's a great dietitian, Ellen Satter. She has this division of responsibility that she uses to describe that parents have a job and children have a job. Parents decide what, when and where we're going to eat and children decide if they're going to eat and how much. Right. So as a parent through these really tough years, you're going to put a variety of foods on the table at a set time that you've decided and you're going to decide what that menu is. And if they're hungry enough to eat it, they will eat it. And if they're not, then you bring it back out at the next meal and rinse and repeat and monitor growth. Check in with your pediatrician, make sure that all the things are happening that should be happening, but typically they will get out of that phase if we continue to explore and expose. But without that knowledge, a lot of parents get anxious and they start reaching for that hyper palatable food. Right. Like let's put the goldfish in front of them and the fruit snacks. And guess what? If the food is tasty enough, you're going to eat it no matter if you're hungry or not, right?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

That's right. That's right. Yep, yep. We know that about, about mammals.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Exactly, exactly, exactly. So just because they eat it doesn't mean they're hungry. Right. If you put the nutritious food in front of them and they're not hungry, they won't eat it. Right. If I eat a big meal and then you offer me celery, I'm going to be full. But if you offer me a delicious brownie, I might eat it.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right, Right, right, right.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

So I think that guidance really helps a lot of parents and sets them on the right track through those really taxing, frustrating years where their children aren't hungry.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes. So what would you then say to parents of older kids? So if we have a child, maybe a school age child like Emile, even older kids who are more independent, who are walking to school and doing homework after school, who have held on to some habits now of a really narrow band of maybe highly rewarding, easy to access, eat, satisfying, you know, the addictive foods that are crunchy and salty and fatty and in individual bags in our kitchens that we can buy in giant pallets at Costco. Nothing against Costco. We love Costco. We do. But yes, we. What do you say to parents of those kids to help realistically start to maybe expand their palate and build some healthier habits?

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yeah, I think expanding the palate is exactly the approach. Because nobody likes to be told you can't eat the things that you like, Right? And I think so often the message is like, stop eating these things and eat these things. But I don't think anybody responds well to that, particularly children. Right. So our job as parents is to show the rainbow of possibilities that food can be and how beautiful and delicious and satisfying sometimes with more practice, right. But these other foods can be so that we essentially are crowding out maybe some of those, those fun, less nutritious foods and replacing them with our superpowers foods. Right? Those foods that give us all those wonderful vitamins, minerals and nutrients. And hopefully, you know, through resources like ours, we're showing parents how to do that in ways that are easy, budget friendly, that are delicious. Like food has to taste good, Right. And unfortunately, not everybody grew up cooking. They may not know intuitively how to make something taste delicious. So that's really like. That is the ultimate goal of our work is to overcome those barriers, right. Like to make sure that we are providing experiences for kids that are accessible.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes, yes, I love that. And, you know, one of the advantages when children are older, although they may have started to settle into some habits that you have to start to unwind, is that parents know them better. So they may know if a child is a little more of an engineer, a builder, or a child who's very social and very attuned to others and empathic and to think about what that means around meal time or around food preparation, that I love this idea of introducing this rainbow. Because what's better than a rainbow? It's this wonderful, spectacular part of life that you may be missing out on. Parts of. But to capitalize on a child's actual strengths and temperament as how you're going to access trying new foods. And maybe they get to do some of the cooking and preparing. So wonderful.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

And this is a skill, you know, when we cook with our children too, we're giving them this self efficacy. We're giving them a skill they're going to use for life. My kids grew up so fast and before you know it, they're off on their own having to feed themselves. Right. And so how quickly that happens. So we want to make sure that when they leave the nest, they have the skill set that they can feel proud of, that they can use to take care of their bodies, that they can show off to their friends. I mean, it's amazing to me how many of my kids peers don't know how to cook and how excited they are to be able to share that with them.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes, yes. It's so true. And it's such a wonderful. The added bonus is that families are building a set of habits around the rhythm of your day. And whatever your hard work may be during certain hours of the day, that when you're at home, you have some time with your family. And maybe it's in preparing food, maybe it's in getting healthy takeout. Certain busy nights.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Exactly.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

And then sitting down together and having time, even if it's only 20 minutes or 30 minutes, but time where you eat together, you talk, you connect. I often, I feel like my husband and I may have fallen short sometimes on providing the full rainbow of foodstuffs, although we have pretty adventurous eaters. That's wonderful. But because we were both so busy in our careers, it was, it was for us that we wanted to sit down with our kids every night and have mealtime and ask questions, hear about the day, but also have it feel organic and natural. Not forced, but it was how we stay connected with one another. And I love that you're making it easy to do that in a way that integrates building good developmental skills.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Yes. And it's really important to understand that that mealtime experience is not just about the food. Right. Kids who share family meals are better able to communicate with adults. They are less likely to make risky decisions or engage in risky behaviors. So it is time well spent, not just from a physical standpoint, but from an emotional and growth standpoint too.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, it's good. It's good health building across the board.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Exactly.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Well, Nimali, it has been such a pleasure. I've learned so much from you. What a delight. The full rainbow has been available. So thank you for everything you do and putting this wonderful information out in digestible format for parents to learn. So thanks so much for being with us.

[Dr. Namali Fernando]

Thank you for having me. It was just a wonderful conversation. Susan.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time. You can listen to Talk About Able completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive content like even more helpful advice and tips on the challenges parents are facing. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts we or go to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Talk About Able is produced by lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health, and it's made possible through funding from the Montage Health Foundation. Together we're committed to helping families toss about the issues that children, teens and young adults are facing today. We believe that when these conversations happen at home, even about the most challenging subjects, children build the skills they need to flourish. Because when families are connected, the hard moments become more bearable, the good moments become even better, and it all becomes Talk About Able. The show is produced by Hannah Boomershine and James Barber. Our Senior Producer. Producer is Muna Danish, mixing and sound design by James Sparber. Kristin Lepore is our VP of Content Development and Jackie Danziger is Head of Content. Maggie Croucher is our Senior Director of Partnerships. Executive producers include myself, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Special thanks to Kelsey Talley and Maya Smith. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.