My kid is a finicky eater – what can I do?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Talkaboutable with Dr. Susan Swick

Episode: My kid is a finicky eater – what can I do?

Host: Dr. Susan Swick
Guest: Katherine Turner
Date: May 19, 2026
Podcast by Lemonada Media

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Overview of Episode Theme

In this episode, Dr. Susan Swick sits down with Katherine Turner, mother of two boys, to discuss the ever-frustrating parenting challenge of picky eating. Katherine's eight-year-old son, Emile, has had a narrow and specific diet his whole life, with little interest in eating as a pleasurable experience. Dr. Swick explores not just the practical question of "how do I get my kid to try new foods?" but dives deeply into the anxiety and sensory sensitivities behind finicky eating. Together, they uncover ways to approach these challenges with curiosity, compassion, and creativity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Emile's Eating Habits and Challenges (01:50 – 11:55)

• Highly selective palate: Emile’s list of acceptable foods is short, and he’s extremely sensitive to visual, textural, and taste differences—even in things like toothpaste.
  • “His concept of the two [toothpastes] are like, so different. They are completely different toothpastes and they smell different. He can smell the difference from a mile away. He's like, that's not my toothpaste immediately.” – Katherine Turner (01:55)
• Eating for necessity, not pleasure: Emile eats until he’s no longer hungry, not until he’s full, and rarely eats for enjoyment.
• Parental concerns: Katherine worries about nutritional balance, family impacts, and social limitations when dining out or visiting others.
• No medical red flags: Despite Katherine’s concerns, Emile is healthy and growing according to his pediatrician.

The "Playlist" of Approved Foods (06:35 – 08:03)

• Specificity of preferences:
  • Brand-specific dino nuggets
  • Homemade (not all) quesadillas, pizza (sometimes), plain pasta with butter/marinara, homemade Mac & Cheese, pancakes/waffles for breakfast
• “That is a short list.” – Dr. Susan Swick (07:59)

Sensory Sensitivity Runs Deep (11:05 – 11:56)

• Emile’s sensitivities extend beyond food, affecting things like toothpaste.
• “Kids like this become sommeliers because they are just so incredibly attuned to these taste differences. I would love for that to be the outcome of all of this.” – Katherine Turner (11:56)

Emotional Impact and Challenges at Mealtimes (14:50 – 18:20)

• Emile feels apologetic about the struggle and picks up on his parents’ frustration.
• Mealtimes can devolve into negotiations and pleading:
  • “You never win when you're negotiating because then you end up negotiating with anxiety. And that's not—that's not a fair negotiating partner. Anxiety is not a rational negotiator.” – Dr. Susan Swick (18:03)

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Expert Insights and Actionable Strategies

Reframing Picky Eating as a Superpower (18:24 – 19:52)

• Dr. Swick encourages seeing Emile’s sensitive palate as a potential ‘supertaster’ ability, not just a hindrance. She proposes making Emile a collaborator in “engineering” food, integrating his love of building and problem-solving.
  • “Call him a supertaster and wonder if he’d like to cook…using his interest in engineering. He doesn't have to eat it. It might be for the family.” – Dr. Susan Swick (18:24)

Build Curiosity, Not Compliance (19:27 – 25:44)

• Invite Emile to keep a “food notebook” describing tastes, smells, and textures—even for accepted foods and non-food items (like toothpaste) to get comfortable with the language of flavor and description.
• Curiosity invites connection:
  • “Your job is not to tell him that his worry is wrong…for anxious people, it’s much more helpful, especially for anxious kids, to have their parent…lean in, let him share whatever, because he's a smart kid, so he's probably got a movie going. And validate it, where you're like, wow, I can see how that would be a little stressful...” – Dr. Susan Swick (21:00)

Exposure to New Foods—Step by Step (25:44 – 32:17)

• Start not with new foods, but by collaboratively describing familiar ones’ qualities, thus lowering the threat of the unknown.
• Sensory descriptions (smell, texture), playful cooking participation, and giving Emile agency as the “expert” engage his interests and foster comfort.
• “What I love about this idea, actually, is the positivity that I'm putting into the food experience, because I don't feel like he's really even glimpsed the possibility of a positive food experience.” – Katherine Turner (29:17)

Playful, Low-Pressure Family Meals (28:10 – 32:17)

• Recommends involving the whole family in describing tastes, textures, smells—even if Emile doesn’t eat the new item.
• Hearing others’ evolving food preferences shows that taste can change. Social motivation may eventually nudge Emile, but skill-building is best started in the safety of home.

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Validating and Building on Bravery (32:57 – 36:38)

• Dr. Swick draws a parallel to Emile’s overcoming fear of swimming, emphasizing the importance of manageable, supported challenges in building confidence over time.
  • “Food is going to be easy. The key is to recognize that what he gets to master is not liking food…we also want him to know that it's okay to explore things and not like them. That you don't have to avoid things just because you might not like them.” – Dr. Susan Swick (35:21)

The “Don’t Yuck My Yummy” Principle and Family Wisdom (37:01 – 38:22)

• Dr. Swick shares her family’s mealtime phrase: “Don’t yuck my yummy,” reflecting an atmosphere of acceptance for differing tastes—a playful way to build descriptive prowess and acceptance at the table.

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On sensitivity:
  “He can smell the difference from a mile away. He’s like, that's not my toothpaste immediately.” – Katherine Turner (01:55)
• On food variety:
  “That is a short list.” – Dr. Susan Swick (07:59)
• On emotional cycle:
  “You never win when you're negotiating because then you end up negotiating with anxiety. And that's not a fair negotiating partner.” – Dr. Susan Swick (18:03)
• On reframing:
  “To call him a supertaster…using his interest in engineering food…he doesn't have to eat it.” – Dr. Susan Swick (18:24)
• On progress:
  “It's about being exposed to the thing that worries you while you build skills at tolerating the discomfort of that so they can learn that they got this, that they can do it.” – Dr. Susan Swick (22:20)
• On family mantras:
  “In my table, the kids used to say to each other, I have four kids…‘Don’t yuck my yummy.’” – Dr. Susan Swick (38:22)

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Actionable Takeaways

1. Reframe picky eating as a unique sensory strength.
2. Invite curiosity and participation: Make food exploration collaborative and low-pressure (describing, smelling, touching, cooking).
3. Validate anxiety and build trust: Ask open questions, explore ‘worst case’ scenarios, and never dismiss worries out of hand.
4. Gradually expose and celebrate bravery: Start with describing known foods, then gently expand to new tastes as a family project.
5. Keep a sense of humor and ownership: Use playful rituals and family mantras like “don’t yuck my yummy!”
6. Remember: The goal is not instant culinary expansion, but confidence, resilience, and the capacity to be curious—even about uncomfortable things.

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This episode offers warmth, humor, and practical wisdom for parents facing the finicky eater dilemma, grounded in empathy and Dr. Swick’s expertise in child and adolescent mental health. It is an affirming listen for any parent who’s ever agonized over dinner time and wondered how to turn mealtime battles into opportunities for connection and growth.

Transcript

[Katherine Turner]

Lemonade.

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[Dr. Susan Swick]

Hi listeners. I wanna tell you about a podcast I've been enjoying lately called the Longest Shortest Time. This show is hosted by Hilary Frank and she and her guests tell incredible stories about pregnancy, parenthood, growing up, reproductive health. Whether it's about menopause, perimenopause, sex, sex ed. These are wild human, funny, incredible stories. She talks to a lot of non parents too. You do not have to be a parent to listen. These are stories that are fun, poignant, really interesting. In one recent episode, she talks to someone about the best sitcoms to watch with your tween to get them to talk to you. So find the Longest Shortest time in all podcast apps or at longestshort. Shortest time one word.com talk about. Able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health, and it's made possible through funding from the Montage Health Foundation.

[Katherine Turner]

Right now I'm working with him on his toothpaste. His toothpaste that we have been using since he was a baby is no longer being made, you know, discontinued. So I am. It's a tragedy and we're really like struggling with this strawberry flavored. And it's going to be strawberry flavored. But his concept of the two are like, so different. They are completely different toothpastes and they smell different. He can smell the difference from a mile away. He's like, that's not my toothpaste immediately. So wow. Yeah, got it. My pediatrician joked. I mean, I don't know how much of a joke it was, but that kids like this become sommeliers because they are just, just so incredibly attuned to these taste differences. I would love for that to be the outcome.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

I'm Dr. Susan Swick and this is Talk about Able. Today I'm sitting down with Katherine Turner, who lives with her husband and their two sons, Emile, who's 8, and Julian, who's 3. Emile's dealing with an issue that will be familiar to a lot of parents. Picky eating. His list of acceptable foods has only gotten shorter over time, and while he's healthy and hitting his growth milestones, Catherine wants to help him develop strategies to explore new foods one bite at a time. This is a conversation about bringing curiosity into the anxiety of trying new things and recognizing how a super sensitive palate can actually be a superpower. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm really excited to learn about your family.

[Katherine Turner]

Yeah, thanks.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

What is the challenge that's on your mind? What is the pebble in your shoe or keeping you up at night?

[Katherine Turner]

Yeah. Thank you. You know, Emile is a very unique individual, and I love everything about him, but I think that one of the pieces that I don't necessarily feel like I have a good handle on as his mother is figuring out how. How to feed him enough nutrients to have him grow as a healthy individual. And this is always. This has been an issue from the very, very beginning with him. Food is not something that he has, I guess, come up with a positive relationship with. It's necessary. He feels hunger and he eats, but it's definitely not a pleasurable experience necessarily. And he eats until he's not hungry and then he's done. Right. There's not a oh, this is so delicious, I'm going to keep eating it kind of mentality, and it started at birth, basically, which is sort of amazing.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's. He's a pure distillate.

[Katherine Turner]

He's purely this way. This is from the moment.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katherine Turner]

And so, yeah, I mean, I think that's my challenge right now is figuring out how to get him to eat more and. Well.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah. So a foundational piece of raising our kids right is making sure they're sleeping well and they're eating well. But it sounds simple. It's not so easy. Let's put a little more meat on the bone, as they. As they might say. And you said he eats just until he's full. Does it take a lot of prompting and coaching or pleading? Paint me a picture of what mealtime is like.

[Katherine Turner]

So along with just having a very limited diet. Right. Like, very unique food choices, it is a struggle just to get him to consume the food that he has chosen or that we have made him, that we know that he likes. Right. So we have to keep prompting him to eat. Come on, Emile, let's eat. It's dinner time. Let's eat. Can you come back to the table? Can you eat? And I know some of that is ADHD related potentially, like just the, you know, focusing on any task and sitting for any task is difficult for him, but this is sort of getting to, you know, and I would say he doesn't necessarily even eat until he's full. He eats until the hunger pains are probably lessened and then it's very hard to get him to eat more. And then he'll be hungry again, you know, like 30 minutes later. Right. Because he's not filling his body enough.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah. Tell me what's on his playlist.

[Katherine Turner]

Okay. This is a short playlist. It's a particular dino nugget from a particular brand. It is quesadillas, but only certain quesadillas. He likes the ones that we make at home. And then he likes some of the restaurant quesadillas. If it has too much cheese, no way. If it has different cheese, no way. He likes plain pasta with butter, but no cheese. We've finally gotten him to eat like a marinara sauce. So he will eat this marinara sauce, but it has to be made like at home. Like my husband sort of doctors it up with like some honey and salt and that's it. He will eat that on pasta and he will eat that on. We call it red bread, which is just naan, just like a, like basically flatbread with some marinara sauce on it. He will eat that. He will eat pizza sometimes. Okay, pretty reliably cheese pizza, but sometimes he picks the cheese off. So he's just eating the bread and the red sauce. He'll eat Mac and cheese, but usually it's only my husband's Mac and cheese that he likes. Or those just terrible for you cups that he can make. I think I've listed them all. I think that's it.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Wow, that is a short list.

[Katherine Turner]

It's a short list.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

What does he eat for breakfast?

[Katherine Turner]

Oh, that's true. You know, he will consume bread as much as possible. He will have pancakes and waffles plain. So that's what he usually has for breakfast is pancakes.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

All right, I'm getting the picture. This is a kind of classic picky eater diet. Sort of the white diet. But you got some marinara in there. I'm impressed that sometimes that's a big deal. So you said also that he gets hungry soon after a meal. If he doesn't eat so much, does he know he's hungry or does he just get cranky or short tempered or.

[Katherine Turner]

Yeah, he's pretty clear when he's hungry. He definitely I'm hungry. And it's sort of a, a statement like I ate 30 minutes ago and I'm hungry again. I'm really sorry, mom. Like I would like more food as opposed to this sort of statement of fact. So. But he is aware of it, and

[Dr. Susan Swick]

it sounds like he's a little apologetic about the fact that eating for him is a production.

[Katherine Turner]

I think he realizes that it's frustrating for us. Yes, he does realize that, and he is apologetic about it. But there hasn't been a way to figure out, like, I've used that sort of feeling to try and encourage more choices, but that hasn't.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

It doesn't work.

[Katherine Turner]

It's not gonna go that far, it seems.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Got it. Got it. Do you have. Beyond being worried that he's not getting a balanced diet when he sees the pediatrician? Is the pediatrician worried? Is the pediatrician worried he's not growing enough? He's small. He's too th. Any translation into slow growth?

[Katherine Turner]

No. And this has been part of sort of, like, our hesitation, right? Sort of. The pediatrician is saying he's growing. Like, he's very, very skinny, but he's tall. His brain is developing the way that it needs to be. Everything else is okay. Like, he's very skinny, but so are both of his parents. So it's kind of his body type too. But it's hard because we want to make sure that he's getting what he needs. And it also is impactful on the rest of our family. Right. Like, our choices of where we go to dinner are limited and how we engage with other families is different. And, yeah, it's a challenge.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Okay. And if you had to describe, would you say that he is really sensitive to the look or the feel or the taste of food and resists trying new things, that he's just really particular, or is he worried? Does he talk about or demonstrate worry about getting sick or get. Or sort of the results of eating? It could be both. But what have you. What have you sussed out?

[Katherine Turner]

It's very much on the. The visual. If it looks different, if it looks like what he's used to or not, and texture matters and taste matters. He's very aware of differences, slight differences. Like, right now I'm working with him on his toothpaste. His toothpaste that we have been using since he was a baby is no longer being made, you know, discontinued. So I am. Oh, yeah, it's a tragedy. And we're really, like, struggling with this strawberry flavored. And it's gonna be strawberry flavored. But his concept of the two are, like, so different. They are completely different toothpastes, and they smell different. He can smell the difference from a mile away. He's like, that's not my toothpaste. Immediately. So. Wow. Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Got it.

[Katherine Turner]

My pediatrician joked. I mean, I don't know how much of a joke it was, but that kids like this become sommeliers because they are just so incredibly attuned to these taste differences. I would love for that to be the outcome of all of this.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about what strategies Catherine can try with a meal and why negotiating with anxiety never works.

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[Katherine Turner]

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[Dr. Susan Swick]

So, beyond a special brand of dino nuggets, outside of the food realm, what does he love? Does he love art or building or gardening or football? Or what are the things that he gets lost in? Cause he could do them forever.

[Katherine Turner]

Anything Engineering related. He is all about building things. He just really loves just thinking about how things work, I think.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Work, yeah, I love that. And tell me a little more about how he gets to play in that space. Is it all Legos and Magna tiles or is he in the garage a

[Katherine Turner]

massive amount of Legos? I mean, he can finish a Lego LEGO in a minute. I mean, he is just so into it and loves building. Loves the whole process of building legos. Like, he builds these. They have these, like, Beyblades. I don't know if you've heard this.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Oh, yeah.

[Katherine Turner]

Oh, I remember big Beyblade worlds at our house. And he builds them out of Legos and then has his own sort of fights with them. Yeah, he's very into sort of like how to build things that can do different things or he loves puzzles. Very, very into that problem solving kind of thing.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Oh, fantastic. And you've described that he's a little apologetic about his finicky eating. What do you say to him when he apologizes? Or is he like, mom, does it go beyond apology? What happens in those exchanges?

[Katherine Turner]

So I would say it happens mostly when we get frustrated that he is not eating something that we know he likes, or we're out at a restaurant and we've ordered something and he's eaten it before, and now all of a sudden it tastes. It's not good. And that apology will happen because it feels like, you know, I think that my husband and I just feel so helpless in those moments. Like, we're at a restaurant, this is dinner time. We know you're hungry. We have limited options. And you're not eating the one thing that we thought you were gonna eat. Right? Like, it's like this feeling of, like, despair that comes over us. Right? We're.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right.

[Katherine Turner]

We're not going to eat the Right. And so I think that he picks up on that and he's like, I just don't like it. And so my reaction has. Has been, Emile, it's okay. It's just, you can hear how frustrating it is for us when we try to feed you something that we think that you like or that you've eaten before and you don't eat it. And that's. That becomes frustrating for us because we want to make sure that you eat your dinner so that you can grow and that you can be healthy. And he's like, I know. It just doesn't taste right. I can't eat it. I don't want it. Like, please, like, can I just not? And you know, and like, yeah, I need you to take some bites. Like. Please just try some bites, like. And then it's a negotiation. We're in that.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Then you're pleading and. Yeah, no, you never. You never win when you're negotiating because then you end up negotiating with anxiety. And that's not. That's not a fair negotiating partner. Anxiety is not a rational negotiator.

[Katherine Turner]

Yeah, tell me about it. Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

It sounds like Emile has so many gifts, so many strengths, and I love that he's an engineer. And I wonder if there is a way of being curious with him about engineering food, using his interest in his. Maybe his. We call it his super taster skill. Whether or not he's a supertaster, I don't know how we test for that. I think there's a pepper test or something. But to call him a supertaster and to wonder if he'd like to cook a little, to be part of putting food together, he doesn't have to eat it. It might be for the family. But to see if he could engage with food in a way that's a little different, that doesn't feel like he's on the other side of a rope and struggling with, do I do this for my parents or do I run away and not eat it because it's. It's going to be bad? You know, I know how it's going to feel or taste in my mouth.

[Katherine Turner]

Right.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

And instead to say, yeah, well, to kind of shrug about the eating and be like, yeah, probably would feel different. But you know what? You are a super taster. And what if we kept a food notebook so that when you do try a different. Different thing. And recognizing that anytime he's at school. Oh, and I wondered about this. Does he eat school food or do you have to send him.

[Katherine Turner]

I have to make his lunch every morning. Yeah, for sure.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right, right, right, right. So to invite him to be as precise as he is with his beyblades, maybe he has a notebook where he's like, how would you describe the flavor of your old toothpaste? And then the different ones that we have to try to figure out, what's your new toothpaste going to be so dad doesn't have to make a homemade toothpaste for him. And to say, let's see if we can describe and invite him to be your partner, your engineering partner, where you let him teach you. Talk to me about the components of taste. Maybe it's sweet and salty and bitter. Or maybe he says, no, I like to describe it with colors. I have different Colors to describe it. Or I have see if he can fill in the blanks and you get to be his scribe and on a really narrow thing like toothpaste. And then see if he wants to help cook and keep the stakes really low. He doesn't have to eat it, but it's a joint project and the reward is time with you or with your husband. And it's fixing whatever you would be fixing anyway. And ideally it starts to be what everybody else is eating. So I would see if there's a way in for him to start using the things that he enjoys, to draw him into territory that makes him nervous and to remember that you're the expert on him and he trusts you. So your job is not to tell him that his worry is wrong. And this goes for all worries. He will have worries all of his life. And we as parents or friends, when a friend brings us a worry that sounds like it's burdening them, our instinct is often to say, I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think that's so bad. I don't think what you said upset your mother, you know, whatever it was. But actually for anxious people, it's much more helpful, especially for anxious kids, to have their parent sort of tilt their head to the side and say, well, tell me more about that. Like, tell me more what? Okay, worst case scenario, like, let's really paint that full picture. What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen if you eat that different nugget? Or what's gonna happen if Julian won't get in the car? Now you may not have time to hear the full two hour movie of everything he might be worried about. But lean in, let him share whatever, because he's a smart kid, so he's probably got a movie going. And let him tell you so you're in it with him so he's not worried alone. And validate it where you're like, wow, I can see how that would be a little stressful because that, well, it could happen. You might not like how it tastes. You know, like that's ultimately the fear of trying something new. You'd be like, yeah, you probably, in fact, you probably won't, you know, the acknowledgement, the full acknowledgement. But that real authentic, like, yeah, that let him tell you the worst case scenario and then you lean right into it and say, that could happen. So what could we do? What would we do after? If you don't like it, what happens? Let him play it out. So in a way, you know, when we treat anxiety disorders, it's actually very similar to what we do as parents to help our kids and help ourselves as adults master something that has us worried. It's just you really break it down into its component parts, and it's about being exposed to the thing that worries you while you build skills at tolerating the discomfort of that so they can learn that they got this, that they can do it. So inviting him to just be connected to food, he may lean up against it, and then you can just be curious with him where you're like, so what's so. Like, worst case scenario, let's be like, tell me what is going to happen? And he may shrug, he may be embarrassed, but he's surely playing a movie in his head of what is so bad and you don't have to rescue him from it. But I wonder, do you think you could become his partner in exploration? Even would it be, could you do it with food? Could you be his assistant? If he's a supertaster and he's taking notes with different tiny flavors, do you think that could work? Or do you think you would need to start with something a little less kind of cemented?

[Katherine Turner]

I love the idea. I love the idea of working with him on just verbalizing what's happening and actually hearing from him, because I do feel like it's a little bit of a black box, right? Like, why. Why does that taste weird to you? Like, I don't understand. And so I would love to be that partner with him. I do have that concern, though, as you're describing this, he is so cemented in his palette that it's hard to, like, figure out what that weigh in is to trial. Like, that's sort of a hesitation point for me, is just, how do I even open that world a little bit for him?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

So it's really promising that you're excited because it means that he has a capacity to do that, you know, that there's. There's something there. And instead of going right to, what do new foods taste like? Maybe it's curious to start with just being his companion in describing what the foods he does eat taste like. And without it being something he has to put in his mouth, whenever you're in the world, you can be like, what is. What does that smell? What does that smell like? And. And smell gives us a lot of potential words where you can be like, that smells like a car, that smells like a foot, that smells like the forest, that smells like the beach, and there's no wrong word. And as he's teaching you, he's an explorer. So then you get to invite his exploration in ways that will help him start leaning into territory that's a little bit less comfortable. So whether it's helping to cook and maybe putting his finger in and touching it on his tongue so that he could teach you what it tastes like, because he's your supertaster, eventually he'll describe something, and as he's paying attention, or maybe he is paying attention to describing things and doing more cooking, and he will be willing to give it a taste. Not because it's a service to you to be a good citizen at the table, but because he puts so much work into cooking and he loves mom and dad and Julian and wants you to have something tasty. We're going to take one more quick break, and we'll be right back with Katherine. Have you ever tried anything that's more playful without it just being sticker charts or, you know, gamifying a meal time?

[Katherine Turner]

Yeah. So, I mean, I used to. There is this. There's this book, Play with your food. And they had these mats. And so when he was little, I used to, like, try and, like, make them, you know, as a face mat. And so you'd make these different faces with the food and sort of, like, get him to, like, let's try the hair now. What does that taste like? You know, and just sort of play with the idea of the visual. But he regularly would still avoid anything new on the plate. So it became that now I have just. I just have all this food that is left on this plate that I throw away every night. So I sort of stopped that process. But I think that that's. That. That's what I love about this idea, actually, is the. Is the positivity that I'm putting into the food experience, because I don't feel like he's really even glimpsed the possibility of a positive food experience. Right. Like, just drawing out the fact that flavor exists and it can be positive and negative. I love that concept because I just don't think that he's had that opportunity, really.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right, right. And his. It sounds like his strategy is to just be like, okay, I really stay in this pretty narrow bandwidth because I got too stressed about it. But he does explore in other areas. He builds new kind of Legos, you know, tried a new school. So I love that placemat or that plate with the different things. And now he's a little bit of a bigger boy. Like, third graders are beginning to feel like, you know, the master of their domain and maybe keeping this game spirit. But every night that you know or you talk to him about it before because it helps not to surprise kids who are more anxious. But you say, I'd love to. To try to put a piece of what we're eating on your plate. And you don't have to eat it, but I want you to participate in our effort to describe it and at least to either say how it feels, what its texture is, like how it smells, sort of let him just encounter it and be part of the developing a description while you and his dad and his brother all describing it too. And that may also be a nice way to have him start getting comfortable with the fact that different things and he's hearing you say, I like this about it. I don't really like that about it. And he hears that there's different opinions. And one thing that he will learn is that some things that we don't like, one day we may actually come to, like later or learn we like later. And that's just because we change too. It's not that we were wrong before, but, you know, maybe as you're tasting it and describing it, you know, like back at our imaginary meal, your husband's eating mussels. And, you know, probably everybody could say, I, I hated mussels the first time I ate them. I thought it was such a bad idea and it felt so weird in my mouth and I was like, ah. And like, make it fun. Like play out your movies. And let him be an expert too. Where his sort of intense sense of taste. He's really observant, but maybe he starts by observing visuals. And then maybe he adds smell. And then maybe he adds how it feels if he wants to touch it. Unless it's really gross, but you could just, why not? What's the worst thing that can happen? And using that, there will come a moment where social forces will make him want to be brave outside of his comfort zone. He's at a birthday party and he doesn't want to be the only kid not eating. Whatever it is, it will come. It hasn't come yet, but it will come. And it's so much better if he gets a chance to learn how brave he is with you next to him rather than having to jump in when he's by himself. Does this feel actionable?

[Katherine Turner]

Yeah, for sure. I'm excited. I mean, I feel like it's a great way of figuring out that conversation and pulling that conversation out. And I love the curiosity aspect of it and just the journey together. As opposed to just this, what we have been, which is sort of this, like, watching and anticipating change, eventually worrying and, like, when is he gonna try new things? And, oh, no, there's another thing that he doesn't eat. And just sort of this, like, reactionary experience as opposed to, you know, something more collaborative and figuring it out together.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

So I love that we're coming up towards the end of our time together, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about territory where you and Emile have or where Emile's done something that was brave or that was new and where you helped him to do that. Could be the school, could be anything. Does anything come to mind?

[Katherine Turner]

Swimming comes to mind. He was very hesitant to swim. He had a scare when he was about five, when he was able to tread water, but it was a little hard for him, and he went to the deep end with a friend, and then he lost his grip and he fell. He just sort of sank.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Scary.

[Katherine Turner]

You know, someone came in and, like, you know, got him out. Right. And that's a terrifying experience. I mean, it was a terrifying experience for everyone. So it was very hard to get him back in the pool and very confident. And it was a working through of those anxieties and getting him to feel more confident in his ability and the fact that every progress was great and really celebrating every little progress that was there until he, you know, now he's very confident in the pool, and he's a great. He's a strong swimmer and, you know, but it did take a number of summers to get him back to that place of confidence. Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

So we know he's capable of this, of bravery when we make it manageable outside of his comfort zone, but not so far outside that it's overwhelming. And also that you're great at helping him do that, at sticking with him, because I don't know about you, but as a parent, watching your child sink or hearing that your child. I mean, it's terrifying. And you might be like, all right, well, swimming just isn't gonna be one of the things we'll hope for. No boat trip ever. And, like, holding that, you've done that. So food. Food is going to be easy. The key is to recognize that what he gets to master is not liking food or we don't want food to be a chore and a burden, and food is critical. He needs food as fuel, and if that's all it ever is, that's okay. But we also want him to know that it's okay to explore things and not like them. That you don't have to avoid things just because you might not like them. That means you're missing a lot. You might be missing everything and helping him get comfortable with the idea that you can explore things. And it's perfectly valid to conclude it's not for me. But you only know if you try. If you try. If you don't try, you'll never know. And you want him to do that because he's. Because he believes in himself. And he also believes in how great it is to love swimming and how much he loves marinara sauce, and he never would have known that. And how much he loves mint toothpaste, because that will become his. He's not there yet. Don't make a toothpaste.

[Katherine Turner]

Definitely not.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Not gonna happen. It's gonna be some European strawberry toothpaste you end up finding. But for him to lean in with what he's good at, with his observational powers and by being his. His colleague, his. His cheerleader sometimes. And also bearing with him that it's okay to feel a little uncomfortable and not like it and.

[Katherine Turner]

Right.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

That means you don't like it right now, but some point, you may want to try it again, because sometimes something you don't like, you like later. Like dad and muscles, or. I'm just making that up. But, you know, whatever it might be,

[Katherine Turner]

I think that's a very good. Very good point with the mussels. We all had that initially, and then we're all. You know, most of us have accepted muscles into our lives, so.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

That's true. And who was the first person that thought, wow, I should eat this.

[Katherine Turner]

This is gonna be a great idea?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, this is gonna be a great idea. Mussels and lobsters. Like, who was the first person? No, no, I'm just saying, you wouldn't

[Katherine Turner]

have known unless you tried.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

There you go. Katherine, a delight spending some time talking with you. I'm so excited for meal time. Now. I really. I really want to hear how it goes. And it may be something different that ends up being fun. It may not be exploring and describing taste or smell, but maybe I can't wait to hear what it is. It's such a common challenge, and it's such a distillation of actually what the work of growing up is, which is to start getting comfortable with being a little uncomfortable and learning what's the difference between you just didn't like it and when something's unsafe and you shouldn't do it or try it. And that's what we want to help our children learn so when they're out there on their own, they know the difference. In my table, the kids used to say to each other, I have four kids. So they had lots of opinions and they used to say, hey, don't yuck my yummy. So that was the state of descriptive prowess at our dinner table.

[Katherine Turner]

I love it.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

I think yours may be more masterful.

[Katherine Turner]

It may involve colors.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

It may involve.

[Katherine Turner]

That's great.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait.

[Katherine Turner]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Thank you.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Foreign if you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time. You can listen to Talk About Able completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive content like even more helpful advice and tips on the challenges parents are facing. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or go to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Talk About Able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health, and it's made possible through funding from the Montage Health Foundation. Together we're committed to helping families talk about the issues that children, teens and young adults are facing today. We believe, we believe that when these conversations happen at home, even about the most challenging subjects, children build the skills they need to flourish. Because when families are connected, the hard moments become more bearable, the good moments become even better, and it all becomes Talk About Able. The show is produced by Hannah Boomershein and James Barber. Our senior producer is Muna Daenish, mixing and sound design by James Barber. Kristen Lepore is our VP of Content Development and Jackie Danziger is Head of Content. Maggie Croucher is our senior Director of Partnerships. Executive producers include myself, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Special thanks to Kelsey Talley and Maya Smith. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week. Sam.