My Kids Are Dealing With ADHD and Anxiety – And They’re Clashing

Summary

Episode Overview

In this episode of Talkaboutable, Dr. Susan Swick, a child and adolescent psychiatrist and mom of four, speaks with Nick, a father navigating shared custody and parenting two neurodivergent boys—Ezra (11, ADHD and anxiety) and Chris (7, ODD and anxiety). The discussion centers on the boys’ intense sibling conflicts, transitions between two homes, and practical ways to break cycles of stress. Dr. Swick provides real-world strategies focusing on routines, rituals, and how even caring for chickens can play a surprising, helpful role in family regulation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Family Dynamics and Custody Challenges

• Nick describes his household

  • Lives with his girlfriend, her 18-year-old son, and shares 50/50 custody of his sons on a 2-2-5-5 schedule ([03:41]).
  • Lots of pets: 3 dogs, 4 cats, 10 chickens, and parrots, making for a “zoo” at home ([03:22]).

• Transition issues from house to house

  • Schedule chosen for young children’s attachment, but logistics are now “less sense” with older school-aged kids ([03:51]).
  • Confusion for the boys, missing items, and anxiety about the movement between homes.

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About the Kids: Gifts and Struggles

Chris (7)

• Strengths: Adventurous, imaginative, “all in” on any pursuit—especially memorable in his dedication to creating a cosplay costume and wearing it to school ([05:29]).
• Challenges: Diagnosed with ODD and pervasive anxiety; described as “explosive,” reacts with “full lizard brain”—defaults to fight in the fight/flight response ([09:29]).

Ezra (11)

• Strengths: Creative, cultivates complex stories and dreams of designing a video game. Deeply empathetic and attuned to friends but struggles with regulating his emotions when frustrated ([06:35]).
• Challenges: Diagnosed with ADHD (combined type) and generalized anxiety; impulsivity, especially in sibling interactions, sometimes turns into snark or escalation ([07:50], [17:04]).

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Sibling Clashes: Patterns & Notable Moments

• The dynamic: Interactions oscillate sharply between “the best time they’ve ever had” or “a blowout fight”—“rarely any middle” ([10:03]).
• Typically, Ezra’s impulsiveness provokes Chris, whose immediate response is physical aggression.
• Illustrative story: After school, a minor disagreement instantly escalates to physical fighting in the car and house, requiring Nick’s physical intervention ([10:36]-[13:00]).
• Nick’s struggle: Feels like a “cop” or “referee” in his own home and notes these explosive fights happen about once a week ([13:06]).
  • “I hate it, if I’m being honest.” — Nick ([13:23])

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The Toll on the Parent

• Emotional exhaustion: Nick describes the cycle of intense parenting, followed by needing to “recover” when the boys are with their mom ([14:00]).
• Guilt and dread: He dreads transitions, noting it’s always worst when the boys return from their mom’s, and feels guilty for this feeling ([14:31]).

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Dr. Swick's Practical Strategies

Routines and Rituals—Why They Matter ([19:55], [24:42])

• Establish predictable routines: Crucial for kids with ADHD, anxiety, and those in two homes—it won’t “solve” fights but is “necessary, although not always sufficient.”
• Structure can be creative and rewarding: Incorporate routines kids help create. Keep after-school and transition routines active, physical, and fun.
  • “Routines are organizing for kids. A bigger challenge, although a possible one, and you guys are a creative bunch, is seeing if you can make those routines a little rewarding.” — Dr. Swick ([19:55])

Physical & Engaging Activities ([19:55], [27:03])

• After school is “magic hour”—high risk for meltdowns: Kids’ self-control is depleted; organizing “fun” but low-barrier activities can help regulate.
  • Examples: Walks, feeding pets, dance-offs, quick music routines.
  • Physical routines are “especially helpful for regulating kids with ADHD and anxiety.”

Transition Rituals ([26:49], [27:03])

• Invent a “coming home to Dad’s” ritual:
  • Doesn’t need to compare to mom’s house—just “this is how we do it at Dad’s.”
  • Make it fun and physical, e.g., a “Weird Al dance party,” chicken feeding, or special show ([27:30]).

Responsibility & Engagement ([28:52], [36:40])

• Low-threshold responsibility: Even simple pet care, like feeding chickens, gives kids a sense of competence and purpose.
  • Chris bonding with animals (“the chickens are super cuddly”) is seen as therapeutic—empathy-building and calming ([28:48]).
    • “Helping them get a leash on it where they are taking great care of the animals that depend on you guys… eventually they will find very meaningful ways to take care of one another.” — Dr. Swick ([28:52])

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Parental Self-Compassion & Realistic Expectations

• Rebuilding each week is normal: Nick expresses frustration at progress being “washed away” after each transition; Dr. Swick likens it to “rebuilding a sandcastle… the whole idea is you keep showing up” ([32:15]).
• Separation and language: “We don’t treat each other that way at Dad’s house.” — simple, repeated boundaries ([32:50]).
• Anticipate, don’t dread: Transitions are always hard with kids this age, especially with neurodiverse needs.

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ODD & Custody Schedules

• Question: Would fewer transitions/staying longer in one place help Chris’s ODD?
  • Dr. Swick’s Answer: ODD is not “fixed”—kids with anxiety get stuck as a defense mechanism. Consistency helps, but the real key is patient boundaries and engaging kids in tasks that build confidence and curiosity, not calm ([34:21]-[36:40]).
    • “With Chris, I would really… focus on trying to have him engaged with things that are interesting to him in a way that shows him that he can do more than he thinks…”
    • “You don’t tolerate unacceptable behavior… but are calm in saying that’s not acceptable.” ([34:21])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Full lizard brain… If he goes fight, flight, or fawn, it’s fight every time.” — Nick describing Chris ([09:29])
• “There’s rarely any middle. It’s just sort of either one or the other.” — Nick on the boys’ relationship ([10:03])
• “I hate it, if I’m being honest.” — Nick on having to physically intervene ([13:23])
• “You can’t be Captain America all day, all afternoon, all evening.” — Dr. Swick on parental limits ([20:42])
• “The days crawl and the weeks fly… focusing on the rituals and routines really helps kids learn to regulate themselves—and helps us catch the fun stuff…” — Dr. Swick ([36:40])

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Key Timestamps

• [01:20] – Introduction of Nick’s family and custody schedule
• [04:45] – Nick describes each child’s strengths and diagnoses
• [10:36] – Anecdote: Sibling fight after Boys & Girls Club
• [17:04] – Discussion of Ezra’s ADHD and “magic hour” challenges
• [19:55] – The power of routines, practical suggestions for weekends, and transitions
• [24:15] – Transitional difficulties between homes; lack of research on neurodivergent children in shared custody
• [27:03-28:52] – Idea to use Weird Al dance parties and chicken care as rituals
• [29:43] – Nick asks about how to better help kids regulate after transitions
• [32:15] – Dr. Swick’s sandcastle metaphor for rebuilding routines each week
• [34:21] – Discussion of ODD, anxiety, and how engagement trumps stability alone for progress

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Takeaways

• Parenting neurodivergent kids in a two-home family is extra challenging, especially when transitions are frequent.
• Focus energy on predictable, rewarding routines and fun household rituals—ideally involving movement, music, or animal care.
• Accept that progress may feel erased after each transition, but consistency and presence are what matter most.
• Low-threshold responsibility helps build kids’ empathy and self-regulation—feeding pets, helping with meals, or joint creative projects.
• Boundaries and routines outweigh complex behavioral plans: Simple language (“that’s not how we do things at Dad’s”) and quick, physical separation when conflict occurs.

This episode is a compassionate, pragmatic look at how to lower the temperature in a chaotic household—and reminds parents that while magic solutions don’t exist, presence, structure, and a bit of Weird Al can work wonders.

Transcript

[Nick]

Lemonade.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Hi listeners. I want to tell you about a podcast I've been enjoying lately called the Longest Shortest Time. This show is hosted by Hilary Frank and she and her guests tell incredible stories about pregnancy, parenthood, growing up, reproductive health. Whether it's about menopause, perimenopause, sex, sex ed. These are wild human, funny, incredible stories. She talks to a lot of non parents too. You do not have to be a parent to listen. These are stories that are fun, poignant, really interesting. In one recent episode she talks to someone about the best sitcoms to watch with your tween to get them to talk to you. So find the longest shortest time in all podcast apps or at longestshort shortest time one word.com talk about. Able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health and it's made possible through funding from the Montage Health Foundation.

[Nick]

He resorts to threats and he's violent. And part of it is knowing that he's seven, but the other part is that he just will hear a no or a like an interpreted rejection of some kind, real or not. And he just everything shuts down. Full lizard brain. If he goes fight, flight or fawn, it's fight every time. Oftentimes I just resort to separating them, but on the flip side of that, when they are playing together, it's like the best time they've ever had. Yeah, there's rarely any middle. It's just sort of either one or the other.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

I'm Dr. Susan Swick and this is Talk about Able. Today I'm talking to Nick. He's a father to two boys, Ezra who's 11, and Chris, who's 7. They're brothers who can go from being best friends to being in a blowout fight within seconds. Nick shares custody 5050 with his ex. So the boys face a lot of transitions between two different homes. And with household conflicts at record highs, Nick is looking for strategies to break the cycle of stress, especially ones that can work for kids with ADHD and anxiety. This is a conversation about building family rituals, the importance of routines, and surprisingly, why taking care of chickens might help. So what I'd love to start with is to find out who lives at home with you for sure.

[Nick]

So at my house it's myself and my long term girlfriend. We've been living together for about five years. Her son who is, oh gosh, he's 18 now. Half of the time my kids are with me. We're on a 2255 schedule and then we have lots of animals. Three dogs, four cats, ten chickens, the parrots.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Whoa, whoa.

[Nick]

Yeah. So a little bit of a zoo,

[Dr. Susan Swick]

but oh my God, 10 chickens. Okay. All right. This sounds like a fun, busy house already. And I want to hear about your kids. But first, maybe you can explain real quick in case some don't know what a 2255 schedule is for sure.

[Nick]

So our schedule has my two sons at my house every Monday, Tuesday, they're with their mom every Wednesday, Thursday, and then we alternate Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Got it.

[Nick]

And we initially picked that schedule because my ex wife and I separated when My youngest was 2. And I had spoken to a school counselor who suggested that when kids are that young, it's important that they get to see either parent every week. But it seems like the schedule makes a little less sense now that they're both in school. Things get left at houses and the seven year old's confused about where he's gonna be.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, they love routines and this is a great routine with a toddler because their routine is just about which parent they're with. But I could see once you're in school, school becomes the dominant force in their schedules and not knowing where their homework is could be disruptive. So let's hear a little bit about your boys. Maybe let's start with the younger.

[Nick]

So Chris is seven and he, he's super adventurous. He loves trying new food. His imagination is just giant. But we are having a dealing with some stuff. So he has a diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder and he is quite explosive. His doctor suggested that it was due to just sort of a pervasive level of anx anxiety.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

And if you had to tell me what Chris's special talent or superpower or great gift was, it doesn't have to be just one. What would you, what would you say?

[Nick]

Oh, man. So it's rare that he wants to try something out where he doesn't want to dive in entirely. There's never a half hearted, like, let's try this out. It's he. He had identified a character that he wanted to cosplay as at this convention. And so we. He's got, the character's got like a big head that's a clock and a. In a golden suit. So at first we were looking at just source stuff in his closet that would work. And he was like, no, I want to go to the thrift store. I want to get a suit. I want to go get fabric, paint and paint it gold. And we had a great time making it. But the way that the fabric paint works. It wasn't ready by the time we got to go to the convention. However, he was determined to finish it. And when he did, he wore it to school. He had to finish it. He had to show it off no matter how it was gonna happen. If there's something he's doing, he's all in just about every time.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Okay, that's incredible. What a great story. Okay, and now let's hear about his big brother.

[Nick]

Yeah. So Ezra's 11 and he's super into creating his own stories. For years he's been accumulating a binder of characters that he's drawn and how they're connected for a video game that he wants to make when he grows up. He and I really connect over like just nerdy things in general. The amount of conversations we've had about Spider man, are we. I'd have a hard time numbering them.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Oh, man.

[Nick]

But he. He's very, very creative. He's got a couple video games where you create your own level and so he's spending time making the levels longer than he is actually playing the game. So he's been diagnosed with generalized anxiety. They gave it generalized anxiety. Other was the diagnosis and then adhd. He struggles with impulse, but he's also a very deep thinker. And it's interesting how he cares really deeply for his friends and he shows off an unus mature sort of understanding about feelings. And he'll check in with people when he notices that maybe they're feeling a little off, but the second he's upset with them, he can't. That doesn't quite extend into empathy just yet.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, that requires a degree of self awareness and control that very few 11 year olds have. Very few adults have, but particularly 11 year olds. Okay, so there's so much going on. You have so much. That's wonderful. And so many gifts. Sounds like creative gifts. Empathic, disciplined, super curious boys. And plenty of challenges too. So let's not boil the ocean. I'd love to hear what's the parenting issue. That is maybe the pebble in your shoe, the thing that you want to talk about today.

[Nick]

Oh, man. So the biggest crux of it is Chris has odd. He goes from zero to 100 so fast. But if. If I was just interacting with Chris, there's a pretty good chance that without a fire turning into an explosion, I can get him to calm back down. But yeah, if Ezra is around, he's. He's so impulsive. He just can't help himself. But to say something snarky or offensive or mean intentionally

[Dr. Susan Swick]

or.

[Nick]

Ezra will talk to me as if Chris is not there. He's like, hey, how come Chris is always doing XYZ thing, knowing that it's going to upset his brother? And then fights start and they don't have disagreements. It's the second there's any amount of mutual opposition there, they're fighting as hard as they possibly can every time.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Got it.

[Nick]

Chris in particular, he resorts to threats and he's violent. And part of it is knowing that he's seven, but the other part is that he just will hear a no or a. Like, an interpreted rejection of some kind, real or not. And he just. Everything shuts down. Full lizard brain. If he goes fight, flight or fawn, it's fight every time. Oftentimes I just resort to separating them. But on the flip side of that, when they are playing together, it's like the best time they've ever had.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah.

[Nick]

There's rarely any middle. It's just sort of either one or the other.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Got it. Okay. This is a very common challenge in families and certainly made more complicated when they're navigating two different homes and their own developmental issues. Are you willing to maybe share a story about a fight? Does one come to mind that really captures how challenging, how difficult this is?

[Nick]

Well, the other day we were in the car, and they. So they go to a, like, the Boys and Girls Club after school. It is right around the corner from where I live. So when I get off work and pick them up, we're in the car for three minutes before we're home. Right. So the second we're in the car, Chris is saying that he had traded something that he had made at school for something that some other kid had made at school. They were working on projects, and Ezra's like, I'm pretty sure you stole that. And then immediately, like, Chris, there's no. There's no. Like, no, I didn't. Or, hey, actually, I'll see him tomorrow before school starts, if you want to go ask. Like, there's no rationalization. But they. Chris immediately goes to, like, hitting and punching, and then they're just yelling at each other, and we're 100ft from the house. Right? So I. But I. But I pull over so I can turn around, and I put my hands between them, and I'm like, guys, let's just pause. There's nothing that we can do in the car before we get home. Let's just go home.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, they comply for 15, 20 seconds, and we Got it. And so they're bickering again. We get inside, Chris puts his stuff down. Ezra runs to the bedroom to grab something. And Chris is like, nope, that's mine. We're not even given a second to decompress before re entering into this. And Chris is running into the bedroom following Ezra. And all I can hear because I'm not there yet is clearly they're scuffling over something. And then when I get in there, Chris is hitting his brother with a closed fist. He's just trying hitting him in the chest over and over. And then Ezra, who, you know, he's 11, but he's also a. He's big for 11 year old. He's. If I see him raise his hand. And so I just run in there and I grab his arm like, nope, we're not. This can't happen. You're. Even if you're not trying to, you're big enough that you could hurt him. And then I go, chris, I want to help, but I need a second. And Chris says, nope. Knocks the desk over. He's going for his brother's things to break them.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Okay.

[Nick]

And this is at a blow ups to that degree. It's like once a week, okay.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

So once a week, huge knockdown, drag out fights that get physical fast. And both boys go there and you end up having to be not even a ref, but you have to do a physical intervention. You have to be the cops. You have to get in there. Okay.

[Nick]

I hate it, if I'm being honest.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

It just, it's, it's, it's. I mean, it sounds horrible. I understand.

[Nick]

Yeah, there's just a certain level of constant explosion. I do my best to intervene. I do my best to make sure that they're heard and understood. But it's. Anytime we make any amount of progress in one area, we're immediately reverting somewhere else. So it, I'll look at any efforts I'm making and I'll be like, okay, I can track some progress here. But the second, yeah, we reintroduced like token economy recently. You know, it's reinforcing positive behavior without asking. They're doing some things like putting dishes away on their own.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Right, right.

[Nick]

But the second we're doing something like that, there's. I don't know, it's just a lot. And then, you know, of course they're only there at my house half of the time. So the other half is, it's full of like now I have to do all of my chores and pay taxes and do all the Other things when they're gone. And then any. Any extra time I have, the focus is on just sort of recovering from the time that they were here.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But I think the most frustrating part about it is that they. It's. It's always the worst when they return from their moms. Whether they were there for two days or five, it's about the same. So it's conflict in the recovery, but also internally, it's like I end up. I end up dreading when they're having to go back to their moms and then feeling guilty about sort of feeling pretty stressed out before they come back.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah. We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we'll explore what rituals and routines Nick could bring into his home to regulate his boys through transitions. Maybe even with a little help from Weird Al.

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[Dr. Susan Swick]

You mentioned that Ezra has a heart, that he's really empathic and caring and attuned to others, but also can be really impulsive. And that's maybe where you really get to see his. His adhd. I Haven't heard as much about him being kind of hyper and busy and always wiggling and moving, but that he can jump on something. Like he has a hard time resisting the impulse to say something snarky to his brother or to raise a fist if he's in a fight. Does that sound accurate?

[Nick]

It does. His ADHD diagnosis is combined type, but it's generally not so much running around like he's got tons of energy. It's more like he's struggling to pay attention to anything or the doing or saying the absolute first thing that's right there, whatever the most stimulating thing is. So it's not always just fun or crazy things. It's like fighting or things that are really kind of sad or whatever. Because those negative emotions also give you some dopamine because your brain's trying to cope with that.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, because in my experience, ADHD makes this worse. But it's also true for all kids, the sort of magic hour after they get home from school, even if it's a few hours after school ended. Because if they're in a program after school where they're really stimulated and engaged, they're focused and they're busy, but that hour when they first get home is just high risk for meltdowns and fights with each other, especially with you, with a parent or with a sibling. And it's tough because we as parents often are most exhausted too and have to like, get dinner ready or, you know, there's just a lot going on and we may feel like, oh, I really want to check in and be a good parent and find out what happened at school today. And it's just the roughest time. Which is why I was wondering if on weekends it follows any sort of rhyme or reason or they can be doing great and then they just can quickly fall into a hot fight.

[Nick]

Sometimes they're fighting first thing in the morning. Like, I keep a regular alarm so that I don't mess up my sleep during the week. And so I'll get a. I'll go upstairs at 6am to get coffee and I'll hear them in the room already fighting at it, going at it. And it's not always, but often enough. But generally for weekends, I'm trying to keep them doing something right. So our project, or we're going to the park or I'll let them help me pick out dinners for the week or something. Like we're trying to stay busy to avoid this super free downtime.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That unstructured time. And while you're a Pretty masterful circus master. You got a lot of animals that you keep safe and happy and fed at home. That with your boys it feels extra hard because you're not the only circus that they move through. So divorce in two different houses and a variable schedule definitely makes that even harder because you work really hard to set and maintain routines and that I'm just going to applaud you for that and say you're doing great. Even though it's not solving this problem yet. That establishing and maintaining routines is one of those boring but super important parts of parenting, especially with two different homes and especially with ADHD and anxiety. That having really consistent, predictable routines just helps regulate everything. And again, it doesn't stop a fight, it doesn't break down a fight, but it is necessary, although not always sufficient at helping with sleep, helping with a kid's sense of consistency even though they're changing homes and stuff like that. So I just, I just want to point out that you're doing great. Don't, don't be discouraged that it's not perfect. It being hard is like important things are hard. It's extra hard when you don't have a copilot in maintaining those routines. Although over time it will get easier and easier to have your boys be your co pilots because routines are organizing for kids. A bigger challenge, although a possible one, and you guys are a creative bunch. Is seeing if you can make those routines a little rewarding. Having them help with dinner prep but in a way that maybe doesn't require that you super produce the project because that'll be exhausting for you. But where they have slightly separate jobs and maybe Chris is walking the dog out in the yard or I don't know what your neighborhood's like and seven year old, depending on where you live, could take the dog for a walk twice around the block. You're the expert on that. But thinking about giving each of them something that's helpful for dinner or helpful for the family, the bigger family. So it can be feeding the pets, taking a pet out, cleaning something up. But you want it to be a little more rewarding. Cleaning up a litter box is never fun. It's necessary, but not fun. But the after school task, trying to catch capitalize on what could be fun and ADHD lowers that barrier. And the end of the school day or when medications are wearing off, both make that even easier. That barrier is lower still. So even though your ADHD kid is the older kid, it's going to be hard for him to be the role model. So Setting it up so there's a little bit of a routine and maybe it's a music walk, maybe it's a superhero walk. Maybe each of them gets to be be a superhero. Maybe it's a Pokemon Go walk. You get to try a few different things, but giving it a little shape and structure, not too much and making it physical. Anything you can put into their day that's gonna literally tire them out, but also be a little rewarding. Kids need to move. Kids with ADHD have actually higher energy levels. At the end of a school day, they're in that frazzled, overtired place. They may need a quick snack. But moving helps make it easy. It has to be easy for you, dad, because you can't be Captain America all day, all afternoon, all evening. And when it's a little more fun and routine for you, it's going to be better for them. I'm also finding myself thinking about not just the after school time, but the transitions from your place to their mom's place. Is there anything that you've noticed that has been helpful? It doesn't sound like it. In making it easier.

[Nick]

No. They come home from their moms totally dysregulated every time. It's also really difficult to find resources about transitioning from house to house specifically because they all control for variables. So if they're switching back and forth, they are neurotypical kids or if they're not neurotypical kids, they live in their nuclear family. And so I'm trying to find research or other things. It's just, I can't.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

I don't think there's a lot of research out there, but I do think you have a lot of experience already. And I'm. I think even if things are were to change and your ex was to endorse fewer transitions, there would still be transitions. So one of the things that you might be able to do, similar to creating a kind of come home from school ritual that includes and I would try a few things, but that it could include some physical activity, could include a sooner reward and maybe not hinge just on the boys doing something successful together, but it could maybe creating a ritual, that's when they get home to your home for the first time and maybe center it on the dogs or center it on the show that you're all going to watch, but creating something and you could invite them to create it with you, it should be something delightful. Not too long. Not too long. If it can be physical, that's better. You want it to be really simple. Really fun, really rewarding to maybe take them out of their own anticipatory worry of are they going to let you down? Are they letting their mom down because they're having fun with you? Are they going to be letting everyone down because they can't make things better with their brother? They may have each of them a real sense, and this is typical of kids this age too, a sense of pressure for wanting to be a hero and falling short and instead give that sort of bright reward right when they step through the door. Now you're at Dad's for a few days and this is how we do it at Dad's. And you can just say that without feeling like you have to say anything critical or normal. You don't have to bring your ex into it at all. You just get to say, this is how we do it at Dad's. And that's going to be organizing for them. They don't have to pick. They don't have to say dad is better than mom or mom is better than dad. This is just how we do it at Dad's.

[Nick]

So we're going from having this anticipatory or rather sort of an unknown, how is Chris going to explode? Or what does Ezra gonna say this mean to me? To anticipating something like, this is what we always do when we're getting back.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah, yeah. This is our fun. It's time for dance Off. We have to do a dance off and then we snuggle with the dogs. I don't know. We did dance off in our house, but. So that's why I keep offering it. People are like, what's a dance off? It's not always marketable, but it has the advantage of being inside and physical. And music is often really organizing and gets everyone in sync in a way that words don't always get everyone in sync.

[Nick]

Gotcha. We're real big on classic Weird Al so we could come up with something fun to do.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

I mean, it's so easy. You could always pick the best Weird Al song that you're like, we do. We do a. We do a happy dance. You're at Dad's and I'm so glad you're here. And it can be just that simple. It doesn't have to be more complicated. It doesn't have to lead to an amazing costume. It's just that ritual. But it can provide a little sort of non cognitive. It doesn't have to be word based. A little behavioral reset of like, now we're at Dad's, this is how we do it at Dad's. There's a lot of energy in the system when you're 7 or 11 and it tends to come out of. Out in fists if it's not coming out of your feet. So.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah. I like the idea of particularly including something that they can take care of. Our dogs are, are, are large. So my, my dog tater is about 125 pounds.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Oh my gosh.

[Nick]

He's. Yeah, he's a big boy. But the, the chickens would be easy. They're perfect. It's funny because the chickens are super cuddly. I don't know if you knew this, but chickens will name you so if they see you often enough, they will repeat their little bagox in the same way when they see you.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

No way. That's incredible.

[Nick]

Or get them to recognize their chicken names.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes. I love that.

[Nick]

Yeah, they're sweet. That'd be easy to contain 100%.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

And I love, you know, being empathic and caring. These are extraordinary things you cannot teach. So helping them get a leash on it where they are taking great care of the animals that depend on you guys and eventually they will find very meaningful ways to take care of one another. We're going to take one more quick break and we'll be right back with Nick. I'm wondering if there's anything that stands out or that you'd like to ask about before we wrap up.

[Nick]

Well, I do feel like I'm doing lots of things right, but it's, it also feels like it sort of breaks down when they leave and come home and then I have to rebuild it up every time. And other than giving them sort of the something to look forward to right as like the second they're back. I wonder if there's any other ways that I can help bring them back to sort of regulated mode instead of just sort of having to re engage with chaos every time that they come home. I know that routine is a big part of it. So we stick to bedtime routines every week. They have a late start day on Wednesday so we go to the coffee shop together and get treats. So we have regular things we're looking forward to and regular routines. But because I have a hard time anticipating what, what is going to set them off or cause a big blow up. And because I know that it's definitely coming, I just, I guess I don't. I'm sort of lost at like how do I better identify the things that are going to get them back into regulated mode rather than just trying to deal with problems until we're not having them as often anymore. Does that make sense?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yeah. I understand that you don't want to just. It's painful to think about just waiting for them to outgrow this and. And I think that's true. But I would say not only are you doing a lot of things right, but the things you're doing now are at the core of what's gonna help them fight less, or at least not always. Go right to 11 when they're fighting and to remember, though, that the routines that you are doing are the key. It's really hard to have these transitions back and forth between two homes. But even if they weren't transitioning between your home and your ex's home, they would still have transitions. They'd be coming home from school and they'd be ready to let it all hang out. Especially kids with adhd. They're just exhausted and irritable at the end of the day because their meds are wearing off. And they've worked hard all day to manage their impulses a little bit better because they really want to be a good friend or anxious. Kids tend to be superstars during the day and then just like hellcats after school because they are exhausted, because they have been managing worry and rumination or worst case, thinking. So this is not an uncommon problem. So creating routines that are organizing for them and for you so you don't feel like you have to be the United nations every time they go to war with each other. Having some simple, basic language that's like, we don't treat each other that way at Dad's house. And separating them, figuring out a few quick and easy strategies. You don't have to reinvent the wheel in the midst of World War 3, but focus on those routines and maybe remind yourself as you're in that anticipatory worrying phase before you get them that in some ways, having boys this age, having kids this age, not just boys, when they're home with you, it's a little like you're going to be building a sandcastle. And when they've left, the waves have washed the sandcastle away, and you may feel like, ugh, we have to. To build the sand castle again from scratch. But the whole idea with kids is that you keep showing up. You're going to keep the routines that you want to then hear about. What kind of different castle are we going to build today? Because each time they come home, they've had some new experiences. They may have things to tell you about or show you, but that the whole Deal is for you to show up, up, focus on those routines and then be ready to listen.

[Nick]

Do you, do you think that if so at this point I don't really know what changing our custody schedule would look like. But I'm, I'm curious. Do children with ODD generally have an easier time if they're given more time to sort of establish like a home base? Because I feel like he's with the constant. And you're right, the they are transitioning from home to school and back in the boys and girls club there are lots of transitions, but the sort of providing safe environment, the good place to cool down at the end of the day when that's also in flux. I'm just, I don't, I'm, I'm curious if having more time in one space generally alleviates some of these ODD kind of symptoms.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Well, I, I would say ODD is not a fixed diagnosis. It's a descriptor. It really describes a pattern of behavior where kids lock into saying no. And especially because you told me he was anxious, it sounds like when I hear ODD and anxiety, I think, oh, it's anxiety. And that kids who have a lot of anxiety and have no choice but having to manage certain things, whether it's going to school or eating red peppers or whatever it is that they may be worried about, they can get really obstinate, really, really locked in. What helps them is patient forbearance from the people who love them. You don't tolerate unacceptable behavior. You don't tolerate hitting or biting or cursing, but you are calm in saying that's not acceptable. You're going to have to go to your room without toys or, you know, you can work with his therapist to come up with simple sort of cool headed ways to remind him of what's not acceptable. And a path, a sort of simple path. But their real work is to learn to bear some anxiety and try something a little bit new. And for anxious kids, the antidote to that explosive obstinacy is usually about being engaged. It's not about feeling calm or feeling no distress. It's about feeling interested. And then they can, they move into trying things and learning that what they're worried about isn't so bad, learning what they're capable of. So with Chris, I would really, I would focus on reminding him when he's doing something that's not acceptable. And, and I would focus on trying to have him engaged with things that are interesting to him in a way that shows him that he can do more than he thinks he can. Do. So rather than him snapping into having to be in a tug of war on whether or not he's a good kid, it's like, nope, we don't do it that way. And let's get ready for the chickens, because the chickens, they want to see you.

[Nick]

And they need their worms.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

They need their worms. We got to go. There you go. You said it better than I could. Well, Nick, it's been such a pleasure talking to you about this. I mean, I wish I had a magic wand. There's no magic wand with raising kids. And it's all magic because the days crawl and the weeks fly. And focusing on the rituals, focusing on the routines really helps kids learn to regulate themselves and helps us also catch the fun stuff and get to enjoy the fun stuff and also take care of ourselves because it doesn't work. If it feels like you're running a juvenile justice facility in your house and you're doing a wonderful job. But lean into those things you do so well.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah, this all feels doable where a lot of things don't.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yes.

[Nick]

Giving them more things to look forward to, giving them things to be responsible for. Low threshold responsibility, but responsibility nonetheless. That's all doable.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Yep. And for you to feel fully focused on what you can do in your home. You can't change what's going on in their mom's home. And you can't change what happens at school, even though we'd love to as parents. And we can't change what's going to happen when they're at college or when they're out in the world. But that's actually kind of the fundamental pinch of parenting. Right. And you're doing a beautiful job of showing how we both find discipline and joy in some rituals and routines and then being with each other.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Thanks so much, Nick. What a pleasure to talk to you.

[Nick]

I've enjoyed this, too.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time. You can listen to Talk about Able completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive content, like even more helpful advice and tips on the challenges parents are facing. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or go to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Talk About Able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Head Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health, and it's made possible through funding from the Montaj Health Foundation. Together, we're committed to helping families talk about the issues that children, teens and young adults are facing today. We believe that when these conversations happen at home, even about the most challenging subjects, children build the skills they need to flourish. Because when families are connected, the hard moments become more bearable, the good moments become even better, and it all becomes talk about able. The show is produced by Hannah Boomershein and James Barber. Our senior producer is Muna Daenish, mixing and sound design by James Barber. Kristen Lepore is our VP of Content Development and Jackie Danziger is Head of Content. Maggie Crasher is our Senior Director of Partnerships. Executive producers include myself, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Special thanks to Kelsey Talley and Maya Smith. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.