← Tara Brach
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome friends, to the Tara Brak Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Each week I share teachings and guided meditations to help us awaken our hearts and bring healing to our world. You can learn more or support this offering by visiting tarabrock.com where you can also join our email list. Now let's explore together the many ways we can live from the love and presence that's our deepest essence. Namaste. Foreign. Welcome friends. So this is part two of my interview with Mohsin Madawi. It's two parts rather than one because I had intended it to be a one part conversation and then it went to so many interesting places and I found his presence and his wisdom really inspiring. So if you missed part one, I encourage you to listen to that first. And in this part of the conversation, we explore the deeper challenges of working for justice in a world that as we know is so driven by fear and hatred and polarization. We look at how personal and collective trauma shape the way people see each other and how systemic injustice can deepen wounds across generations. We also explore what makes empathy and compassion possible between people who are living in profoundly different realities. And we reflect on how the situation in Israel and Palestine can serve as a mirror for our wider world, revealing the different consequences of pursuing control through aggression are pursuing justice through a sincere love of human beings and all life. So friends, my hope is that as you listen, you'll feel not only informed, but really inspired by what becomes possible when love and clarity guide our engagement with the world. As we begin here with part two, we'll start in with the great challenge that we face with our universal fear conditioning, the conditioning that has us aggress against others. Thank you for being here friends, and thank you for your care. It's so honest and real that the forces of when we feel injured and scared, the human brain goes into very naturally hatred and aggression and it happens in so called every side. So you know, and so unless there is a conscious explicit intention to cultivate the qualities of presence and compassion, people get pulled into it. So I'm really, I love that you're focusing on that. And I guess what I'd wonder is when you're, let's say you have somebody that's a part of a coalition who is really caught in that kind of hatred and dehumanizing the other side? How do you talk to them or work with them? How do you bring practices that can help them to kind of wake out of what I sometimes call a trance of reactivity?
- [04:11]
B
Yeah, this is a very essential and very important question. The Buddhist practice and understanding and ethics gives a very clear instructions about how to do that, how to break through the separation that is an illusion. How to be able to relate to others through empathy and compassion. And how. And what does it mean to empathize without justifying the harm that is being done? So I simplified the teaching in a way that can fit anybody, even if they are not practicing Buddhism. And the teaching comes from. The basics of it is you need to separate people from systems, systems of oppression. They use people in order to oppress and to cause harm to other people. And if we want to fight for justice, we are fighting the system, not the people. This is one understanding, the other one. The reason why we do that is because, again, we come back to the foundation that we believe that the human nature is a good nature. That's the Buddha nature, the Confucius as well, they believe that way.
- [05:40]
A
Even.
- [05:41]
B
Even Einstein, he said, the most important decision, as one friend shared with me, the most important decision that we make in our life is to believe if we live in a friendly world or an aggressive world. And a friendly world means that people have the capacity to be friendly. So the idea is we relate to the people in an empathetic way. What make people be part of a system of injustice? Most of the time it is related to ignorance, it's related to fear, and it's related to segregation. And that's where I say. And when I teach people, I say, the human being is not an enemy, if there is an enemy. It's the system that capitalizes on ignorance, on fear, and on separation or segregation and. And our duty for a collective liberation, which is also at the core of the Buddhist practice. Liberation from suffering of all being, in fact. And the bodhisattvas, when we take the O and when we do the vow, it's to liberate all beings. So that is part of the healing, is to liberate the people who are also being used and manipulated by the system of injustice. And they have to explain that when you empathize, you understand the root causes of an issue, and you do not justify what those people, through the system, are doing to others. And I've seen the impact of it in my life. I've spoke with people who. Who were, like, completely filled with hatred and anger and seeing the Palestinians as enemies. And the moment I go and speak with them from a place of empathy, I'm not pointing fingers at them. I'm not blaming them. I'm inviting them to see my pain, my experience, my yearning. And over time, they discover that what we are looking for is not actually different. And they start realizing that the system has been gaslighting them, miseducating them, and using fear and the trauma as a weapon to continue to control them.
- [08:09]
A
I love what you're describing because it's testimony to the power of love, that if you can be a very embodied transmission of creating a safe space, a respectful space, if there's proximity, if you're close in, it helps people to relax defenses and sense a larger connection. So like you, I feel like if we can respond by getting that proximity and being the love, that there's amazing hope. Now, here's my. What's challenging, I think, is that we live a lot in our cocoons where we don't have that kind of contact and where we fuel the sense, the narrative of a bad other. So for many people, it's very hard, as Thich Nhat Hanh, and you just said it so beautifully, to get that the enemy's not a human. We're just dealing with conditioning. And it's nobody's fault that they're conditioned, but it's really hard to get that. And so I've taught meditation to Israeli groups, to Palestinian groups. What I find is when that there's a real holding on to the anger and the hatred, that before I can say, well, it's not. They're not your enemy. It's a system. I have to actually invite people to get in touch with the anger and the hatred and sense what's underneath and get. And find out that underneath it is fear and powerlessness. And even deeper than that, there's a grief. And just as I know you, because we've talked about it in your trauma work, we kind of, if we don't touch into the grieving, the heart doesn't soften enough to have any of that clear seeing about systems and even being. We can't even look at another person and see the light in them unless we've grieved. And so I just would be curious if you could just speak to that a little. What you've noticed.
- [10:18]
B
I honor this, and you're reminding me of your rain method of dealing with emotions, which I actually used a while ago, thanks to you. I never shared this with you before. I want to share some fundamental metaphysical understandings of love and fear. As a start, love and fear are two emotions that move in our bodies. One is positive and one is negative. Doesn't mean one is bad and one is good. Because one can serve the other in a way or another. Love is expansive by its nature. And love is peace. In fact, when you feel it in your body, when you're in a state of love, you are in a state of peace. And when you are in a state of love, you are in a state of expansion as well. That means you feel more connected. If you're in love with a person, you feel connected to them, with your family, with your community. And the greatest love that we can have is to also extend it to our oppressors and to the rest of the world, to all beings. The love for the stars and the moon and the sun and so on. So the more we are in a state of love, the more we are connected to other people and to other beings, and the more we are expansive. That is the unity that it brings to us. And again, the body is our signal on the other side. Fear is a root emotion. Two root emotions, which I will talk about in a second. Fear is, in its way, negative. It's retractive. It disconnects us from others. And it separates us, in fact, from even people who we may love when we feel fear with them and our enemies and others who we subject to be enemies. Now, the way also fear functions in our body, it puts our body in tension. So it's, It's. It's in conflict. It's the opposite of a state of peace and the state of love. Now, all emotions come from two roots. Positive emotions come from the root love. Negative emotions come from the root fear. And again, the body can't. The body doesn't lie, tells us so in a motivative way. How we have to think about it. We have to think in a way, one that is asking the question always, is this coming from a place of love? If we're gonna do an action or say something, or is it coming from a place of fear? And when we're confused, we pay attention to our body. That's where the awareness is very important. Now, if we think of the Eightfold bath, it starts with the right intention and the right view, and that is related to the truth. And then the right speech and the right action. So this is on a very fundamental level now in terms of the question that you posed, which is related to disconnecting from others, it happens. Again, my understanding of it that it happens because the mind wants us to separate from others. And we start thinking that if we connect with others who are causing the harm, we are justifying it. And that's where we see actually a culture A cancel culture. A cancel culture is not an empathetic culture. It's not going to help with basically transforming people. And the best way of transforming people is actually realizing that their liberation is connected to our liberation. And that's also. We see it often related to different forms of movements that are fighting for justice. And that's also what Gandhi and MLK has, have realized when they say basically injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. That's in a systematic level. But I think the injustice that one can. The oppressed that is experiencing, we don't see necessarily that the oppressor also is experiencing a level of pain and injustice. But we have have to reach out and to communicate and to transform that. And we've seen this in peaceful movements that were transformative because they were able to invite the other on the other side, whether the white people in America who were benefiting from a system of discrimination and white supremacy, or if it's the apartheid South Africa, or if it is the harm that was done and the significant level of basically harm and subjugation that was done to the Jewish people in Europe in terms of the Holocaust and what unfolded after with antisemitism.
- [15:52]
A
So this is really. We're getting at something I've been really wanting to ask you, which is that you've kind of suggested that what's unfolding in Israel and Palestine is actually a model. And I'm referring to what you're just talking about for either going down the fear track, which is really collective destruction, or collective healing, which is accessing the love, being able to see the other not as enemy, but as another traumatized, hurting being. Can you say more about why you frame this as significant globally as a model for transformation?
- [16:37]
B
Definitely. So I have to share with you a dream that I had. In fact, after the talk that I gave with Gil Franzen, I went to my. I went to my hotel and around 5am I wake up horrified with this dream. And I saw myself going to the refugee camp where my family is still going to attend a wedding. And the moment I get out of the car, I see some of my neighbors who look at me in a very serious way, that they are not happy, they are disappointed. And I felt rejected. And I felt like my heart clenching and I didn't know why exactly what's happening. I continue the walk to get to my. To my family's house in the camp. And while I am going up the stairs, I see the sister of my best friend Hamed, the kid who was killed in front of me. And Two other girls sitting on the stairs and preventing me from walking through. And I said hello, and they didn't respond to me. And I saw that level of rejection and to a level, disappointment in their faces. I tried to make my way through and they wouldn't move. And then I woke up very scared, very horrified. Now I thought about the dream. It stayed with me for a while. And I think the message that I received and the interpretation of it is I must talk about the serious harm that the Palestinian people are going through before I speak of the path for healing and for reconciliation. And the reality that the Palestinians are living through is a very painful reality in the West Bank. And I don't mean to say this and to trigger anybody who is listening, because I am saying it from a place of compassion, a place of love, but the reality is that the west bank is an apartheid system and an apartheid system. In my understanding, Actually, it's worse than the system that was applied in South Africa, even though it's difficult to compare in certain situations. And in Gaza, it is a genocide that is still unfolding that the ceasefire is not in place. More than 650 Palestinians have been killed. And it's just numbers in the West Bank. My families in different refugee camps have been exiled for the second time and their homes have been destructed. More than 50,000 Palestinians displaced in the West Bank.
- [19:37]
A
Wait just a moment, just to pause. Your family in the west bank has been displaced again?
- [19:43]
B
Yes, part of my family has been displaced again in Jenin refugee camp and in Tulkerim refugee camp.
- [19:52]
A
How did that happen?
- [19:54]
B
Well, the Israeli government has a plan which is to take over over the west bank, as they call it, Samaria and Judea. And they went to different refugee camps because they are places that reminds. They are places that are still waiting for the right of return. And they started destroying different houses and they basically evicted a number of refugee camps in the West Bank.
- [20:25]
A
So some of your family has been evicted after being in these refugees camps for all these years. And where do they go?
- [20:35]
B
What happens that they actually are. They don't have a permanent housing. Some other family members welcomed them. So they're sharing very tiny spaces with them. And actually, my family also lost their lost, you know, members. Four of my cousins were killed after October 7th, and two of my cousins were killed during the second intifada. And this is the situation. It's not only myself or my family. It's the situation that many Palestinians are going through. The situation in Gaza now, kids are dying because of the cold during the winter food is not still sustainable there. People are living in tents. There is no homes because it was destroyed. So this is a reality, and this reality is systematic. And Israel, what Israel has done and is doing is beyond imagination in terms of injustice. Now I can speak about reaching out to Israelis and believing that there is a way to resolve this issue peacefully because I feel it in my body and I know that it is possible. And I think. I think of it in a way that the Israeli system is built. To empathize is very important. It is a settler colonial project, the way how I understand it. But it's a little bit different than most other settler colonial projects because it was created after a deep level of trauma and injustice that was caused to the Jewish people in Europe. And the killing of more than 6 million Jews during the Holocaust was something that nobody can actually imagine nowadays. How would it feel and how would it look like? So the project was to create a safe homeland for Jews. And the idea behind Zionism was to find that place. Now, the empathy that I have is many of the Jewish people who decided to go to Israel were running away from the fires of injustice and the antisemitism that Europe was having, and they were subjugated to it. And many of the people did not know, in fact, that Palestine had its own people who were living there because they were told, this is a land without people, needs people without land. And they were surprised and shocked when they arrived that there was people there. And the project that the founders of Zionism that they put in place could not actually happen without the use of violence. And what unfolded is that the Israeli Jewish population for four generations now, they have been living in this mentality of survival since the creation of Israel. And they've never had the chance to actually realize their trauma and to process it. And this is what made them not see us clearly and see us as Nazis and see Arabs as Nazis. And that the issue is also related to the system. That was because everything became systematic, that continued to feed information to the Israelis and to use their fear and their trauma, their intergenerational trauma, memory, to prove any incident that is happening that what we are telling you is right. And this is what is creating so much disconnection between Palestinians and Israelis, where Israelis, in fact, who come to Colombia and who I connect with and I speak with most of the time, don't realize what happened in the history. And they are not aware of the situation. And I don't blame them fully. I mean, I can understand it because the situation was similar In America, where systematically, Americans and Europeans were not exposed to the Palestinian story, and they were fed one narrative by the media and by academics and by writings and so on. So that is the empathy that I can have. And the empathy that I have is my liberation as Palestinian and the liberation of my people is interconnected with the liberation of the Israeli people from their own system that is subjecting them to this harm. They are not happy happy, they're not living peacefully. They're always living in fear internally. And that is the collective liberation that I hold on. And I believe that it is very possible through empathy, compassion and education.
- [25:45]
A
So just to mirror back, what I'm hearing you say is that if we can really understand the other's trauma, and if we can be close in enough to listen and acknowledge and care, then there is a space where we can begin to forge a future that has more justice, take down some of the systemic injustices. And what I wonder about, because clearly this isn't just the differing narratives of reality, of Palestinians and Israelis. I mean, here, teaching in the United States, there has been a. There's a huge narrative held by many that it's not just past trauma, that the Israelis face hatred and a vow to annihilate them in an ongoing way. And people that have that narrative say, of course they're going to defend and aggress. And I wonder, given, first of all, on a global level, the atmosphere is so much towards taking care of yourself by aggressing, by dominating between that and the very, very different narratives. So much so that if I, in different podcasts, Mohsin, I would talk about some of the horror of October 7th and the horror of what followed and the asymmetry of it, because I feel like people make it equal and it's not equal. And the asymmetry lets you know, you have to pay attention to certain places. Right now that is an ongoing genocide. And. And what would happen is, if I bring it up, I have many, many people who are Jewish will listen and not trust me anymore and feel like I've betrayed them. And so I have tried really hard, just in the way you're describing, to very much express that human by human, we can have the deepest compassion for the kind of trauma and pain and systems have to change for that to change. And that means addressing this asymmetry that we really. There's not going to be peace until there's justice. And so I guess I want to hear a bit from you on how you can have the dialogues. And yet the system's still in place and the injustice still in place.
- [28:40]
B
It is not an easy path to do, because also part of our practice, actually, it's a very important part of our practice, Buddhist practice, which is the skillful means that Buddha has taught us that we have to meet people where they are and to make information for them accessible and not necessarily triggering. Because if somebody get triggered, most of the time, it's very difficult for them to incorporate and to understand. And practicing the skillful means can happen on a personal capacity. When I connect with somebody who does not have much information, I can start elementary basics with them. And over time, the transformation will happen. But because you have this platform and many people around the world are benefiting from your knowledge and from your wisdom and from your teaching, it is difficult to practice. In fact, the I would imagine the skillful means that would fit everybody, including some Jewish communities who feel triggered. And I would share that at this time, we are at a very critical moment in the human history or the history of humanity, because what is unfolding now, which is might make, might makes it right, is a very dangerous thing. That is a phenomena that many people who are motivated by fear, in fact, this comes from a place of fear and not trusting that there is a way where we can systematically change things in a peaceful way. If we don't speak the truth and if we don't share the truth, clearly, we are not doing service to those who don't know it. And the thing is, when I share the truth, I don't close my doors. When somebody reacts to me, I continue to invite them, I continue to have conversation with them. And yes, it takes time, but this is my compassionate, empathetic commitment to those who might react to me. And to the last point, just to wrap it up on this subject, why do I believe that this can be a model for healing for humanity? It is different reasons. Not only that the Israeli occupation is actually the oldest occupation in modern history that still stands, but also the reality that we live nowadays, which is the interconnectedness and the level of awareness that's happening in the world, that most of the people around the world are able to see and hear and witness the situation. And if that is a possibility, that means also the majority of the world will be able to see and witness and see the transformation and the healing. What allows us to come and create healing, what gives me hope is that the understanding of the human psychology that we have nowadays is something we've never had to this level before. And that could be national trauma healing and interpersonal trauma healing. And intergenerational trauma healing and the level of understanding of different spiritualities that are coming together, in fact, related to the human dignity and the collective liberation is also at its peak. The issue is the people who are in power, who are weaponizing systems to further and to sustain systems of oppression and discrimination and inequality. And I believe that what happened in Palestine, probably it is the last event, mass event of genocide, that we would be able to know what happened, because AI and disinformation is getting all over the place. So that is why I think it would serve as an exemplar.
- [32:51]
A
Well, I agree. And I think for the example to actually be successful, we come right back to where we started, which is that if the movement for change comes and there's some bad othering and some hatred and some anger in the mix, it's going to just bring up walls and defenses. And like you described, when I'm with people and we can together feel that we really care about all beings, like there's no bad, bad other. There's no other. There is no other. You know, if we can really, if that caring and love comes through, then there's enough of a softening that we can listen to each other and know we have different narratives, but still choose to love and choose to trust. And a lot of what I'm finding in myself is that when I get contracted, if there's some part of me that can pause and say, is it possible to choose to love in this moment? What happens is first I have to love the fear and the hurt and the anger and find under it that there's tenderness. And then I can truly, truly love all of us. So I want to bring this to you, have, as you described, a bit done, real reconciliation in action, reached out to Jewish groups, others who disagree with you. Can you share what. And we know the challenges in it. What actually are some examples of, you know, let's say on Columbia when you brought groups together in group situations. So it's not just you and your charisma and love making the difference, but in groups what ends up softening the armor and creating more trust. What have you seen? Foreign
- [35:01]
B
I've seen a lot. One point before, I share what I've seen. The practice of empathy is internal, not not only external. If we don't empathize with ourselves and if we don't practice self love and if we don't know how to relate to ourselves in a compassionate way, the practice with others outside of us would be. It's actually not practical. We have to Experience it ourselves. And when we. When we think of that internal healing, it's actually at the core, again, of the theory of change. We bring peace to the world by bringing it to ourselves, and then we're able to connect with others, to the people around of us and so on. That's the theory of change, of it. Peace is not something that needs all of these conditions outside of us. We can achieve it and we can create it. And that was the approach, actually, that I approached with Jewish and Israeli groups here, where I've seen in group communications, starting with grounding ourselves with meditation. And it's difficult sometimes for some people, they say my mind keeps running around. They say this is the core practice. And then practicing thinking of, again, two different issues. The systematic issues of the asymmetry that you mentioned of injustice, and the issue that's related to the personal experience. And the idea that the more we created conditions for people to feel safe and heard and to be able to open up, the transformation took place already. The challenge was in this is to convince one that you are safe and you're not giving up the principles of justice that you have and you are trying to communicate. And the transformation was unbelievable. Where I saw, in fact, people in the groups who were kind of supporting the Israeli system to start with, and I did not know exactly where they were at, but we did this leap of faith of many different sessions and meetings and committed to it until I was detained by the Trump administration. And when I was detained, I was shocked to see the two people who were disagreeing to a certain level and would not show up together, showing up together in a protest and speaking together for not only my freedom, but also for equal rights and for human rights for Palestinians, which was very transformative and one that actually made me shed a tear. Somebody who's part of the Israeli system, who worked with intelligence, in fact, And I never imagined to see this person coming in public for anything. I had a court hearing in September in New York, and when I came out of the court, there were a group of people and they saw this person standing there. And when I saw them, I started crying in public.
- [38:35]
A
So I want to go slow here because there's something really important here that. Because there was a real connection that allowed the kind of caring where people actually would engage beyond their particular belief or position. So let's backtrack a little bit, and because people are going to be interested just to give a little sense of what happened, how did you end up detained and how did you work with whatever feelings came up about it because it's no small thing to have this happen.
- [39:15]
B
The ultimate test for my spiritual practice was my detention. I mean, I was practicing it during the time when I was leading the protests and building and organizing. But when I was attacked publicly by groups that called for my deportation, and that energy of fear, that tension that would come in the body, I was every time kind of, you know, rise up in me. I would sit, meditate and clear it out of my body and see clearly without feeling reactive. So that's when I started preparing for it. Every wave of fear, I am able to clear it and say, I am clear and I'm not afraid. And what happened is there was. I knew that this might be a trap, or I felt it, that it's going to be a trap during my citizenship interview, where they already detained some student activists. And I went to it with high level of clarity and high level of coordination, step by step, to not be transferred to Louisiana and to stay detained in Vermont so I can fight on fair ground. So the first thing is, when the officers came and they told me that I am under arrest, I gave them my hands and I was smiling, and I said, I am a peaceful man. I'm not going to resist. And when they walk me outside of that center, I look at the camera. People would be terrified, usually, of a situation like this. Somebody was recording, and I flash the V sign and they smile. And that was the moment that was captured on international media, that this guy who's detained smiling and giving the V sign. And throughout this process, when I was, in fact, in detention, I stayed calm, clear and well and connected through meditation, through just rooting myself in the beliefs that justice will prevail and knowing that what I've done is something that is an obligation to me. I have not done any harm. I did not intend to do any harm to anybody. And what happened is Senator Peter Welch visited me in the prison, and he asked me, how could you be this positive and how could you be this calm and at peace? And I shared with him that, you know, this is my spiritual path, and I trust just that justice will prevail, and I trust in the Constitution of this country. And when I was released as well, like, I stayed calm throughout this, a whole process. When I was released, I actually gave a talk, a speech in front of the courthouse, and I said, because I am working from a place of love, not a place of fear, and this is for humanity. I said, I am saying it loud and clear to President Trump and his Cabinet. I am not Afraid of you. And they said it from a place of love, not reaction. And people felt it, you know, so this has been the practice that I am doing. Every time there is a reaction or there is fear, I calm myself down and I am able to transform it through compassion, empathy and non attachment to be able to come to the world from a place of love, not a place of fear.
- [43:04]
A
How much did sangha and does sangha support you in that? Feeling others with you, feeling yourself a part of something larger? And I ask because when you were detained and it hit the headlines, there were a lot of us that were profoundly moved because it wasn't a simple situation of political organizing that you were clearly organizing in the way that so many prayed would be the way of the future, which is out of love, out of respect for the dignity of all. So you got a lot, a lot of people came forward. So I'm just wondering what the impact of feeling, of belonging to that larger sangha was.
- [43:53]
B
It was a powerful impact. In fact, when I was in the prison cell, I cried, but not out of pain, not out of fear. I cried out of love. Many times I felt so much love and so much support by hearing on the phone what has been going on. I had people who would be reading articles for me and by seeing on the TV the spiritual community, my sangha and many others who I even have not known, praying and meditating and coming to the world from a place of love. And I saw it in the protests that the protests that took place in my support were protest of like renewal of this movement for civil rights and the movement for anti war and the pro peace. And I feel very rooted in fact that I am connected to a spiritual community that is beyond myself. And I know that if something bad would happen for me, my work and my yearning and my passion is connected with this fabric of community, that it would be sustained. And I know I will not be alone. And I was not alone.
- [45:21]
A
You are not alone. And I think what gave me so much inspiration was sensing that you were modeling and a part of a growing movement that I'm sensing in a lot of places that's very clear that unless we are grounded in love in the heart, the transformation that we want in the world isn't possible. And you know, there's inspiration in what's happened in Minneapolis where we're not like professional activists that got to the streets. This is people that just cared because it was their cousin or their neighbor. And if we can feel into the world around us and be caring like that Then a movement of change, like what happened, the civil rights movement, Gandhi, anti apartheid, real change becomes possible. So what I'm hoping for from you maybe is kind of, as we wrap up here, and I have so many different directions we go in, but how do you sense. What do you sense will nourish this kind of movement that you're certainly a part of? And so many are. It's been kind of amorphous, but it feels like it's emerging in a very real way now. What will nourish it?
- [46:48]
B
The movement has been building up, and what happened before taught us a lot of lessons about what needs to happen and what we need to bring into the movement in order to sustain it and to nourish it and to be able to have and to make the transformation. And now we are actually building a movement that is pro peace, anti war. Because the biggest question and debate right now, can we bring peace in a nonviolent way? And we believe that we will. And we have the conditions that are being met for the first time in a very long time between the civil rights violations in this country, the involvement with war, the bipartisan divide, and the awareness that is being created with many different communities. So what is needed for the movement? It has to have a commitment to nonviolence. One, we don't advocate for violence, even though we recognize the right of people under international law to defend themselves. But we don't advocate for violence. We are committed to compassion, empathy, and love. That's what we what. Why we take our actions and what we do in this world. And we practice those principles internally within the movement and externally with people who disagree with the movement. And one major issue is we also root the movement, and we must root it with spiritual. With the support of spiritual communities and spiritual leaders, because spirituality can help with faith, with hope, with regulations of feelings and emotions, with forgiveness and with empathy. So those are the cores and the vision that we work for is we agree on and we promote for the restoration of human rights and the reformation of international law by 2030. And that is a very ambitious timeline. But the only place that our dreams could be diminished and killed is within us. And the last element of it is again, the separation between the systems and the people. And for the systems, we apply divestments and boycott and sanctions. For those who violate human rights and for the systems that empower human rights, we apply investment, empowerment and solidarity. So it's the yin and yang. And we are trying to stay in that energy of love, because this is the time for healing and transformation. For our humanity, enough is enough. The killing that we've seen has stained our memories and our generations, the coming generation and our beautiful birth deserves to continue and to flourish because this is a beautiful life. This is our heaven, and this is our hell.
- [50:12]
A
Yeah, it's from love for life. And so a lot of people get fixated on finding a leader for a movement. And Thich Nhat Hanh was really famous for saying, you know, that the Buddha is the Sangha, that it's all of us. I mean, some people are going to articulate the way in certain ways, but it's really going to arise from people connecting and being together. And for those listeners right now who might be really resonating with what you're saying, but feeling like, well, I'm in my own little isolated space and I'm. What can I do? You know, what might you say that would kind of invite kind of the courage and the just bringing that engagement to life?
- [51:03]
B
I would say, speak your truth. And before you speak your truth, make sure that it's coming from a place of love, not a place of fear or resentment or anger or hate. And when you speak your truth, as we learned truth has its own power to achieve justice. You will connect with people, and you will find your way to take action. And when people react to you, don't treat fire with fire. Treat it with water. And the water of our humanity, of our emotions, is love and compassion and empathy. And become more aware, more involved of understanding what systems are causing the injustice. And use your money wisely. Support systems that support justice and don't support systems that are causing injustice. And make sure the last part is all of us can be peacemakers. If there are two people in your life who are not communicating with each other, try to mediate between them, try to bridge them. Because we are crying for unity and we are crying for healing. And we can do it on a small level. And this is how the change can be done from within to the people around us, to the rest of the world.
- [52:31]
A
Thank you, my friend.
- [52:33]
B
My true gratitude to you as well,
- [52:47]
A
Sam.