← Tara Brach
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome, friends, to the Tara Brak Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Each week I share teachings and guided meditations to help us awaken our hearts and bring healing to our world. You can learn more or support this offering by visiting tarabrock.com where you can also join our email list. Now let's explore together the many ways we can live from the love and presence that's our deepest essence. Namaste. Foreign. Welcome, friends. Today I'm excited to introduce you to two teachers who are also very dear friends and colleagues. I've known them for decades and really love them. This is Devin and Nico Haja, and. And they've both served as mentors in our teacher training. And they're wonderful teachers. Deep, deep practitioners. Some of you might know their earlier book. It's called how not to Be a Hot Mess, A Buddhist Survival Guide for Modern Life. So now they've written a new one. It's called this Messy, Gorgeous, A Buddhist Guide to Lasting Partnership. And you'll sense that the common denominator here is an embracing of mess. So in that spirit, this book is really one of the most real books around for anyone wanting to deepen love in their relationships. And it conveys what these two have lived through together with so much honesty and insight and humor. It really makes clear how partnership is by nature challenging and humbling when we're paying attention. And also how partnership is one of the most powerful and rewarding domains of waking up our hearts. So in this conversation, we explore a range of juicy questions about what actually supports a deep and loving partnership. And that includes, when I say partnership, it could be intimate partner. Also, deep friendships, deep connections anywhere. How do we work with conflict and reactivity? How can our practice come alive in daily, everyday moments? And they bring a really open and fresh presence to sexuality, to the power of reflecting on impermanence, and so much more. So I really enjoy this conversation and trust that you will, too. Okay, so welcome. Devin, Nico, what a pleasure.
- [03:23]
B
Thank you so much, Tara. We're just delighted to be here with you.
- [03:27]
A
Yeah. So I've already introduced you. And just to say that, as I mentioned to you before we started, I was looking through at our emails around your wedding time, my first question really is, when you got married, did you envision relationship as intrinsic to the spiritual path? I mean, did you have vows that were kind of committing to how it might serve the path? And, you know, and was there a time after you got married that it just became so clear? Okay, this is right at the center of things.
- [04:08]
C
I think it was at the center of things from our first date. So when we met, I was living at a Zen monastery. I'd been living there for five years. Devin had just moved to Colorado, a couple hours away, and we met sort of randomly. And I remember from our first date having very personal, beautiful conversations about our spiritual paths and how they were similar and how they were different. And that conversation has been going now for almost 20 years. And then at our wedding, our vows that we took together, that we wrote ourselves were, let's be partners in awakening. You know, like, I vow to be in your partner in awakening. And that has felt like a kind of North Star ever since that ritual day.
- [05:07]
B
We had kind of a funny first conversation. We met through a mutual friend. And I remember sitting in the Zen monastery on the couch and getting to know Nico, and both of us were kind of like, you know, we're not dating material. And for him, he said, you know, I'm a monk. I'm committed to my sangha. Of course, Zen monks can date. They can marry. But he said, I'm at this point of just really giving myself wholeheartedly to this community. And I loved that response because I said, you know, as a Buddhist, I don't take refuge in you or any relationship. I take refuge in the triple gem, like, 27 years old. You know, I was saying this, and it sounds so naive now to me, but I kind of love the. Those younger selves that we were. We were both so on fire for the dharma, so young. And I think, at least for me, that's what I recognized right away, like, oh, here's a kindred spirit, somebody who's not going to compromise, somebody who's as dedicated as I am to this path, and that's rare. And I. I really was grateful. I think I knew kind of from the beginning, like, this could be good. You know, this could go well.
- [06:17]
A
That's beautiful. And I hear what you're saying, like, when you really feel somebody's meeting you in the depth of love for waking up, that's it. And I was thinking about. Because I was thinking of your wedding, I was thinking of when Jonathan and I got married, that we organized our vows. The center of our vows was, may whatever arises, the challenges, all the. The intensity of it all, may it serve to awaken, and may our relationship be part of serving the larger awakening. And so my question to you is, it sounds like you shared this total commitment to waking up and what was like, an early experience of something that came up between you that actually, you know, rubber hits road, where you really saw how we relate to this is intrinsic to the path.
- [07:16]
B
We might have different stories to tell, but what you're reminding me of is this is maybe our first year or two. We were both living in these spiritual communities three hours apart, and we hit a pretty big rupture, like, difference in agreement and lifestyle and futurizing. And I remember we weren't sure if we would make it through. And my teacher at the time, Lama Sultram Sh. She's a teacher in the Tibetan tradition, and she was talking to me. She also was married, had kids, and she was telling me that for her over the years in relationship, her litmus test was always, is this relationship together growing bodhichitta in the world? Does us together help to serve and offer something bigger and greater to the world? And she said, that's how, you know, is your relationship a connection of bodhichitta, and is it offering something? And when I looked at us that way, I just was sure, like, of course, yes, this is all based in bodhichitta. And it was pretty easy then. I mean, still, we had to get through our rough patches. But I do remember that as a turning point of, like, okay, that's actually a great question to ask. It's a good way to know that we're committed.
- [08:27]
A
That's a wonderful question. Is it serving Bodhichitta in some way? Is you being together part of the waking up in the world? I love it. Yeah.
- [08:36]
C
Yeah. I remember our first fight. It took a year before we had a fight. And what triggered it was that we were in this long negotiation about how we were going to be together. And Devin had decided she wanted to live in the Zen monastery with me because it was tidy and things ran on time, and it was beautiful, and it was deep practice. But simultaneously, I was in this very long struggle of whether I should stay. So a year into our relationship, only a few months before she thought she was going to move in, I realized I could no longer be a monastic, that I actually had to go out into the world and do other things, new things, challenges, parts of myself that weren't being expressed. And I announced this to Devin with very little Runway. And we had only been together for a year. We hadn't lived together yet, and it just threw her into a tailspin. Can I trust you? You just are making these decisions. You haven't even talked to me about it. That wasn't completely true. We talked a lot about it, but it was like this very rupturing Experience of whether I was a steady, trustworthy partner and whether she could count on me. And that was our first big moment of how do we actually work through competing needs, conflict. Not just like the kitchen sink stuff, but, like the life stuff, where we have to actually make real decisions together. And for me, I think, like Devin was saying with the puri chitta or the offering to others, it was. It never seemed to me as somehow in conflict or with the spiritual path, but it was like, this is the path. Or in the moment, how do I make this the path, even if it feels really bad right now?
- [10:37]
B
That's actually a great story to remember Saison, because I remember the first many years of our relationship. I had that experience of, like, whoa, we just made a really big decision, kind of, you know, 180 kind of feel. And this was part of getting to know you actually was recognizing that I'm more kind of like. Like, plotting. I really like to look at all of the angles of a decision and think it out maybe too long, you know, and have like. We went to Asia. So here's one example. Nico proposed, and I said, it felt early to me. Like, whoa, early. We had only been together for a couple years, and I said, sure, I guess I think I'm gonna marry you, but I want to go to Asia for six months first, you know, as a kind of trial. It was a good trial because his style of travel was, like, you know, spontaneous. Let's just go, we'll show up somewhere, we'll meet people, we'll see where we're going. And I was like, no, I want a plan. We're going to Pulahari to study Tibetan language and philosophy, and then we're going to go to all these. You know, I wanted to have it all planned out. And those were. I remember those turning points, even traveling together, where I kind of felt, like, taken aback and worried it was a trust issue. And then coming to realize, like, this is just a different style of decision making. It's a different style of living. It's a different pace. And how do I learn? How do I come to appreciate that? Because our trip was different, because we were mixing this, like, planning and all this spontaneity. And I think that's been one of the kind of key pieces for us is this curiosity about our difference. And then for me, certainly being like, oh, there's another way to do it, like, how interesting. This isn't about not being trustworthy. This is just a different way to be in the world. And I've always Been really interested in, like, let's try that out. It's scary, but let's try it out. So meeting each other in the middle there.
- [12:27]
A
Well, I think what you're starting to name now, and this is a takeaway for all of us listening, is that difference. Even a conflict in needs doesn't mean something's wrong. It just means it's an invitation to deepen attention with curiosity to see. Then you can find where there's some flex. So let me ask you this, because there have been times where for each of you in your stories, sometimes for both, where there's a really deep triggering, definitely there's really some real fear feelings of out of control. You get to see your nervous system in its full regalia. What have you learned about each other's nervous system? How to work with that. And I'd like to hear from each of you what you've learned about the other person's way of getting freaked out and then coming back.
- [13:22]
B
Nico, you should tell the van story maybe.
- [13:25]
C
Oh, my goodness. Okay. When we came out of our three year retreat, which is maybe something else we should talk about, during our time together here, we did a three year meditation retreat. And when we finished that three year meditation retreat in the summer of 2023, we bought a van that was. It was an RV. It was like a small class B RV with a bed in the back and a sink and a stove and. And it was beautiful. It was brand new. It was custom made, you know, like these wood cabinets. And everything was in exactly the right place. And we were so excited for this van. And we drove it to Canada where a donor had offered us land to build a retreat center on Salt Spring Island. And so we get on the ferry in the van, we get off the ferry in the van, we start driving with the GPS to these bizarre coordinates that we can't quite understand where they are. And the first thing that happens is that we're going straight up this mountain and it is rocky and it is washboard and like, you know, olive oil bottles are falling out of the cabinets and everything is shaking and going and the wheels are spinning and they're not getting traction. We're going up this dirt road and Devin is saying, slow down. You have to slow down. And I'm saying, I'm driving. I'm saying if I slow down, we will go backwards. Like, we have to go fast up the hill. So I'm slamming the gas and she feeling really afraid. And I'm being really reassuring and I have this confidence. Like we're going to get up this mountain, it's going to be completely fine. So we get up the mountain, we get down the mountain, the other side, and I'm like, see, Everything is okay. No problem. Hand on the knee. We're reconnecting. It's very good. Then we get down to where the land is supposed to be, following gps, and we dead end at a cliff over the ocean. And there's nowhere to turn around because the van is big. The van is long. And so there's a kind of sloping rock face to our right, and then there's the ocean dropping off a cliff to the left. And I say to Devin, just like I thought, just like the mountain, I'm going to just swing a K, turn up this rock face and then come back down, and then we're going to drive out of here. Because I couldn't figure out how to reverse it because the tires were just spinning. And I couldn't go to the left, and I couldn't go the right. And she said, you cannot do that. Physics will not allow that. And I said, I've got this. And I drove up the rock face. And then, of course, we slid in the most. One of the most horrifying moments of our marriage. We slid down the rock face, and then half of our van went off the cliff. The back tires went off the cliff. We shuddered, we shook. There was this whole moment where the van found its stomach stability, did not fall 20ft into the deep ocean. And then we were just there, right? So I don't know what I learned about Devin's nervous system in that moment, except that if you push her far enough, she will definitely get pissed, right? Like, patience, patience, patience, patience, patience, patience. More patience. Extending more trust. But then there's that moment of, like, the rupture of trust. She is not like this cool Buddhist teacher who just takes a deep breath and is like, it's okay, honey. You tried your best. But what she actually did, which I thought was very, very smart, I have to say we did okay in this moment. Because the first thing I said was, that was my fault. That was a terrible move completely. And she was rather upset with me. And I was like, you're right. Absolutely, 100%. There is no way that I can defend what I just did. I will never defend what I just did. And she walked out of the van and she said, deal with this. I'm going to go find the land. I hope when I get back, the van will not be hanging off a cliff. And she left. And I thought, you know what? That is like, deep wisdom right there. This is 100% my problem. There's no reason that she should be supporting me right now. And she was kind of shaking. It was a scary thing. And I knew, like, she just needs to go off into the woods. So we didn't have reception. I went to a neighbor, blah, blah, blah, AAA came, pulled us out. By the time she got back, everything was fine. We do have videos of AAA pulling us off the side of this cliff that are absolutely harrowing. Okay, what have I learned about Devin's nervous system? Devon can get upset like every other human being I've ever met. She can get dysregulated, she can get impacted. But I have complete and total faith that she will come back. Usually she will come back within a few minutes. In that circumstance, maybe she will come back within two or three hours when she's done hiking and cooling off. But I know that pretty much no matter what happens, no matter how far she's been pushed, she's going to find a way to reintegrate the system. Them come back to me and meet me. And so honestly, that gives me a lot of faith in her as a partner. Now, of course, I understand not everybody is like this. We may be in partnership with people that are very different from that, but in our particular situation, I think that's what I've learned about Devin's nervous system.
- [19:08]
A
And so what she needs from you, therefore, given that you trust that she can come back on her own, is what she needs. Because what I'm hearing you say is just for you to give her the gracious accepting space to come back on her own, not to interfere with the
- [19:26]
C
process in that particular circumstance because it was such a big thing, she definitely needed space.
- [19:34]
A
Are there times she needs something from you?
- [19:37]
C
Absolutely. Usually when it's not such a big rupture. What she needs from me is to hang with her while she's regulating. She wants to co regulate with me. And my role is to, even though sometimes I'm the one who wants space and needs space, and I tend to regulate more easily by walking away. My role is to be like, okay, I'm going to stay in it. Devin's nervous system needs co regulation and I'm going to be here in it and we're going to figure it out together for however long it takes in the living room to just talk this out and talk this out and talk this out and talk this out until we find each other
- [20:20]
B
and, you know, to offer the other side of that, we're different in that way. You know, even if Nico is my trigger, often I want to co regulate. Like, I'm good at co regulating. I want to be with another limbic system. It's helpful. In that particular story. I was definitely having a panic attack. Like I needed to go breathe. And in fact, I found other hikers and just hiking with them was so helpful. They had a golden retriever dog. Like, that's what I needed to just go be with other humans, realize that we were okay.
- [20:51]
A
Service dog. A service dog.
- [20:55]
B
It was so helpful. And also, I mean, so Nico's nervous system is different. In times of emergency like that, he'll just get super calm, like very calm and grounded. Sometimes a little overconfident and calm.
- [21:09]
C
I don't know why you would say that.
- [21:11]
B
A little overconfident in that moment, for sure. But it was true that the Canadian AAA came through for us. They were amazing. But in that moment, I think what I saw was, oh, Nico is grounded in calm in emergencies. That's helpful. And also does really good self regulating. We're both only children, but he grew up often with a single parent and was alone a lot. And so self regulation was, you know, the go to. So it's helpful to know kind of what our different needs are. You know, depending on the context, he might really need to go off on his own for a bit. And even if that's conflicting with my need to co regulate, we kind of know to give ourselves space and then to trust because we've been in it enough to know that we'll find each other. Yeah.
- [22:00]
A
So your response to what you know about each other's nervous systems is a bit of an advanced response. And I want to. What I mean by that is that for many people, and I've seen this with me and Jonathan, when one of us is triggered and having a hard time, we're not just thinking, well, okay, more space, less space. On that level, we go into a lot of the much more neurotic responses, which is, I want to fix you, I want a problem. Or, you know, it could be too quickly trying to reframe it positively. Well, this isn't really that bad. You know, I'm naming all that because people listening to you might say, wow, co regulating or regulating on your own. I don't always get there.
- [22:50]
C
Well, we don't always get there either. I hope we're not misrepresenting ourselves. Maybe, Devin, maybe you should talk a little bit more about when we don't make it work.
- [23:04]
B
Well, the subtitle of this book was originally going to be, you know, Buddhist guide to lasting partnership. Like how not to lose yourself or fix the other person. You know, this kind of middle way in terms of understanding what do I need, what do they need. And so I think a lot of it is just. And we talk about this. This is from the Satipatthana sutta, the teachings on mindfulness. Usually the suttas are offering, you know, be mindful internally, know what's happening inside you, be mindful externally, know the other person, how's that happening for them? And then to know the context, the both the internal and the external, which we call kind of a third space, listening, like to the relationship itself. And so in your example, Tara, I think so much of it is about understanding our own triggers. You know, when I'm nervous or when, you know, it's hard for me that Nico's having a hard time, I'm going to want to fix him, you know, like just get better so that I can feel okay. And just knowing that, that's kind of the go to, that's my default. Very helpful then to be able to manage okay, well, how am I gonna ask for what I need? Or is this even the time to ask for what I need? Or oh, I'm like leaping to conclusions before it's time. Like, he just needs to feel the thing. And so that's some external mindfulness, knowing, okay, maybe if I just take a beat, give him some space, then we can get into problem solving later. So this is all that kind of internal, external, in between listening that we talk about in the book. And it, it takes time and training. You know, this is why we're so passionate about relationships being a path of awakening. And this could be with your partner, but it could also be with friends and family and colleagues. You know, this three part listening model is so helpful for getting to know like what do we need? What is our kind of default? Do we give a lot of space? Do we problem solve? Do we try to give too much of ourselves? You know, that's kind of that codependency piece where I'm the one who's going to sacrifice my own needs or are we somebody who's like, I'm good at boundaries and I know what I need, I'm going to just take it without so trying to fix the other person rather than losing ourselves. So a lot of this is about self knowledge and understanding the dynamic.
- [25:20]
A
Yeah. For those that are listening, this messy, gorgeous love that these two wrote includes so much that's really in that kind of applicable practice level where you actually practice paying attention to your own processes and each other. And I want to get you to talk a bit about, I mean, you talk about the trance of nice, which I think is a great phrase. And you talk a lot about different ways people do conflict. Like, that's so valuable. I know you've tuned a lot to the work of the Gottmans, who I think are fabulous. Can you talk about how you. Your typology and what you've noticed. And I think it'll be really helpful for people to listen to that.
- [26:08]
B
Well, I just want to spend a moment and say, Tara, we have drawn so much from your work, you know, in the way that we teach and the way that we write. This trance of nice, I think probably originally came from you. Some of my learnings. I was thinking back, I think I met you in 2004, which was before Nico and I met actually. And so all of your work around like the spacesuit and the way that we try to like get through these relationships was a lot of like understanding my own people pleasing tendencies. This sense of like, I'm really conflict averse and so I want things to go harmoniously. And you know, for example, Nico didn't sleep well last night because we've been away apart and I was back for the first time. And it's different, you know, sharing a bed together. And when he wakes up and is dysregulated because hasn't slept well, I'm. I'm dysregulated. Like, I have a hard time with that. And so I watched myself this morning start to go into the trance of nice, of like, what do you need? Can I make you coffee? Can I help you? Let's just make this okay. But because I know that he needs space, I was also able to like kind of pause and like let him go to the gym, have some time on his own. So all of this to say there are these three types. We talk about three types of conflict. And so first type we call the Dodgers. This does come from the work of John and Julie Gottman, Dodgers. A little bit like people pleaser. I think I have a little bit of this dodging energy in myself. Often they just rather get out of the room, you know, so not into talking about the conflict. There might be elephants in the room that simmer for a long, long time. Just don't really want to get into it. I mean, the beauty. Each type has a weakness and a beauty, but the beauty of these Dodgers is that things are pretty Peaceful a lot. You know, like, you don't have to worry about big ruptures because they can go for a long, long time. It's kind of smooth sailing. The second type, we call diplomats, and these are the type that really like to talk it out. You know, they've probably done some nonviolent communication training. They've maybe done a lot of, like, mindfulness, communication, listening and speaking practice, maybe some D approach insight, dialogue. And. And so they'll just talk till the cows come home, which you can see. I mean, there's a lot of strength in that, a lot of skill and negotiation, and also can take a lot of time and energy. And then the third type we call volcanoes, those are the type that just explode. You know, they're not worried about conflict. They'll just get right into it. They rupture. Well, we call it rupturing like a pro, you know, like, they'll just go for it. And there's something clean and kind of cathartic about that style. But then for people who have that style of conflict, it's really helpful to learn how to apologize, you know, how to forgive pretty quickly, and just to say, like, we can know our conflict style in different relationships. So Nico and I are both volcanoes with each other. And you probably. When you read the book, you can tell because we talk a lot about these big ruptures, but we're also pretty good at getting over things quick. But then in a lot of my friendships, for example, I'm more of a dodger, so that's kind of. That internal listening is understanding. Okay, what is the what. How do these conflict styles or personality types come out in different contexts? And then how do we dance with them?
- [29:34]
A
So according to the research, it's more common to have mismatches. I mean, you two are both volcanic with each other, but the whole thing of pursuer and avoider, that it's more common than. You guys are a little uncommon in that and then getting trapped in. In the cycle. Yeah, I know.
- [29:55]
B
For.
- [29:56]
A
If I had to, you know, describe Jonathan and I, we actually, when we teach workshops, you know, I'll be grabbing at his hair, you know, grab. Trying to grab at him, and he'll be kind of like racing off in a different. We kind of model it out. And, you know, because I'm more of the pursuer, the diplomat, I've been trained. I can talk things out. But the downside of the diplomat is often not full emotional honesty. You do a lot of talking, but you don't always get down. And he's more the Dodger, very spacious and accepting, but not really wanting to go, you know, like, he gets like a deer in the headlights when I say we need to talk, you know, kind of thing. So that I'd really be curious how you would guide people when you. When you know, they. They start seeing some of those more locked in cycles.
- [30:51]
C
Because you can, right?
- [30:52]
A
And it's not a problem if you can be flexible. But how do you get flexible?
- [30:58]
C
That's a great question. I think from my perspective, maybe the first step is to allow that your style doesn't need to change. So if you are a Dodger, embrace being a Dodger. If your partner is a volcano, embrace them being a volcano, always within reason. So there's this other piece around volcanoes and dodgers and all these. Like, there have to be boundaries. There's things that you just can't say. So when Devin and I say we're volcanoes, it means we can get loud, we can get passionate, but we're not tearing each other down. And we're not saying things that we can't take back later. Or in the rare instances where we are, then we have to have a whole process around that because we had a really big explosion. So we're not saying for somebody like a volcano that anything goes, but we're saying within the boundaries, the accepted boundaries that you have established in the relationship. It's great if you are a Dodger and your partner is a volcano. The first step is just to acknowledge that I don't need to not be a Dodger, right? I don't need to not be a diplomat. That is not the difficulty. And so much tension falls away when we can allow ourselves to have the style that we actually genuinely inhabit and then let our partner be what they are. Right? Maybe if you're a Dodger, you don't really love the whole volcanic thing, but this is what you got. And they're probably not going to just become a diplomat overnight. Second piece is that.
- [32:42]
A
Wait, wait, let me just stay with that first piece for a moment. So I want to say, okay, so here I am, the volcano, and I can get, you know, I can be more. I have volcanic in me. Even as a diplomat, when I go at it with Jonathan, it's scary for him, right? So it's very hard for him to accept that what he experiences as aggression. So how do you get the Dodger to say it's okay if you're volcanic or what? You know, if the way the other person is, is experienced. And this is from early on in Their lives as actually threaten.
- [33:25]
C
Right. And then for me, just as somebody who's, I don't know, I'm probably more like a diplomatic volcano or a volcanic diplomat or something. I'm not one thing entirely, I'm definitely not a Dodger, but something like a volcanic diplomat. For me, it, it's very dysregulating to be with a Dodger.
- [33:44]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:45]
C
Right where I'm like, whoa, you just disappeared, right. You're sitting in the chair, but I don't know what happened. I don't know where you went.
- [33:52]
A
It's abandonment.
- [33:52]
C
Yeah, Total, total.
- [33:54]
A
Like a band to relate to. Right?
- [33:55]
C
Yeah. So you got scared and gone, Right. So I think what you just did is a big part of that naming it.
- [34:06]
A
Right?
- [34:07]
C
Oh, we're gonna have this tension, right? Jonathan is gonna feel afraid when you get maybe a little bit loud and you are going to feel afraid when he gets extremely quiet. And that's probably going to be at least part of what is happening. So the whole first chapter of the book is called Relationships are Rough. That is a thread that moves through all of our work. When you can acknowledge that this relationship is bound to be filled with tension, sticking points, rough spots, difficulty. Well, the Gottman say when you get married, you inherit a host of problems that never go away, right? You are going to have this difficulty. The Dodger is going to have that difficulty. The volcano is going to have that difficulty. There is this tension that is in the air. So like we need first of all to like allow it, name it, let it be here. Let the Dodger get freaked out in the way they get freaked out. Let the volcano get freaked out in the way that they get freaked out. And if we can take off the extra interpretation around like, well, you shouldn't be raising your voice right now or you shouldn't need to walk around the block. We should just be able to stay in this. If we can drop some of that, we have more contact, more availability, I think.
- [35:42]
B
And I'll just say one thing that was really fun about writing this book was really offering practices so that tangible ways that you can kind of train these skills. And so I think the first chapter, we talk about the check in. Checking in. So simple, so simple. And we love the check in. I mean I've loved check ins for years, but it really is a more little bit more structured, formal way of being together. And again, this, this could be any relationship where you just agree. You could set a timer, even just five minutes of like sharing what's up and could go to Very deep, you know, really what's in your heart, what's the deepest thing. But it could also just be like, well, here's what I'm thinking about my to do list and this is how I'm feeling today. You know, before we started recording, the three of us kind of did a little mini check in together. There's something regulating about just naming. And again, it's a tool for the internal, external, both mindfulness. Because maybe in the check in we can name some of these truths, like I'm dodging or I'm kind of volcanic. And it can be around the relationship, but it could also just be the mood that we're in. And that's helpful just to name like we're saying. So check in. Very helpful. And then in later chapters, we do rain. We teach rain, which we know we. You're a huge proponent of rain, Tara. Like recognize, allow, investigate and nurture as a way to be naming for ourselves. You know, if something is up, could be something difficult. But also rain is so great to do when there's a positive feeling. You know, you can do rain on our connection or love or appreciation or gratitude. And then partner rain, which again I think we got from you around what a beautiful way, maybe in the middle of a conflict or an argument to decide, oh, we're going to actually take this to the cushion together and recognize together. How are we feeling? It could be different, very different feelings. And then a lot of the practice is setting a timer and doing our own allow, investigate and nurture and then coming back doing another kind of check in. How was that? You know, what's different? And so we've used this actually a lot. We do partner rain almost daily. We really love this practice and we've sort of, you know, there's more ways you can kind of refine it. Just do the rain together is great. And then over the years we've found ways to really listen and reflect back. You know, we'll repeat back to each other what we're hearing or we'll find ways to offer. If we're looking for feedback, we'll offer constructive feedback or ways like here's the other piece of this that maybe you didn't see yet that I'm seeing. So there's ways that, that can lead into maybe more diplomacy or more creative kind of perspectives on certain situations that could be a rupture in the relationship. It could also just be supporting us in all of life's choices and, you know, difficulties.
- [38:38]
A
I love what you're saying and it really Resonates. And I feel like Jonathan and I are very similar to you. Whether we do it formally or informally, that the practice, if there's something going on, taking the time to go inward and sense what's going on. So let's say back to this, you know, dynamic of, you know, one person kind of avoiding and one person pursuing. If I get in touch, if I do rain and get in touch with what's underneath the pursuing, it's a place of feeling unlovable and long, wanting connection. And if I can get to that vulnerability, then when I continue to talk with him, I'll speak from. Instead of attacking him, I'll speak from that place of I just am wanting more connection and intimacy. And if he gets in touch with underneath the Dodger is the feeling of being endangered, pushed away, hurt. If he can say that out loud, then we get to a place where there's actual compassion. He has this line that the first to roll, reverse, win. And that's what happens when you do rain. You get in touch with enough that you can actually then look at the other person and be able to really sense, oh, what's it really like to be them?
- [40:03]
C
Yeah.
- [40:04]
A
Which is hard when you're in the reactivity.
- [40:07]
C
Very hard. And then I think another piece there. We also have rain partners that are not each other. You know, so this is another thing we learned from you, Tara. You know, like, I've got my rain partner. We. We meet on the phone. I mean, she lives in Canada. I live here. We're both Dharma teachers. Devin has, I don't know, six rain partners checking in with continually about all these themes. And so, you know, you don't have to be each other's entire world for this transformative process.
- [40:44]
A
So here's a question, kind of a follow up on what we're talking about, because I love that you in some way are deepening attention. And rain is for those that are new to this. This isn't some new technique. This is just a natural weave of compassion and mindfulness that helps us in a systematic way get in touch. When you two do it together, I'm imagining you go through the process and you've recognize, allow, investigate, you nurture, then when share with what's going on that there's a shift not just in how you're relating to what's going on inside you, but in the shared space of the of who you are together. And I often call that after the rain, naming the actual shift in identity. So my question to you is really, what is your most Profound sense that you open up to that gets revealed about who you are beyond your separateness. Like, what do you discover? What have you experienced together?
- [41:56]
B
We probably would have different stories for this too, but there's an image, a very clear image that arises when you say that Tara. And I'll put, try to put words to the feeling of it. So we both are really passionate about long retreat. And we've done retreat together, but also a lot of retreat separate. And the first six month retreat I did was very solitary. I was in the woods in southern Oregon. It was a really hard time, just very lonely, afraid a lot of that time. And Nico sort of knew some of the ups and downs of the retreat. He came and visited me, I think twice during those six months. And then at the end came to help me kind of pack and, and come out of retreat. And I remember we were checking in and you know, kind of reviewing like what I had learned and the way that I had grown. And he said to me, and I think there were tears, he said, you know, it's the greatest honor to have a front row seat to your awakening. And it still kind of gives me chills, like how lucky that we can do that for each other, that because we have been on this path together for a while now, we get to be each other's teacher. And I think in Partner Rain and these other practices that we're offering in the book, it's like, here's ways that we can get to the lower surface, like the deeper surface of things, like your naming to understand our insecurities or, you know, your trance of unworthiness, or the ways we just want to be loved and to see that in ourselves and be witnessed, you know, in that practice, but then also maybe get to shine a mirror for the other person out of compassion. We don't always get this right. Sometimes this can feel like the sword of wisdom that's also been a refinement. And how do we shine this in a way that feels compassionate? But what, what a gift to be able to give that to another person because it's framed with bodhichitta and it's in this sense of mutual waking up. And gosh, don't we want to know all those edges and the shadows and the. And see how we're coming across and you know, all those, the stuck places. And I do think that we've been able to do that for each other. So maybe hard to generalize. I do know though, for me it is a lot about that feeling lovable, feeling worthy, feeling Like I'm going to be okay even if I messed up, you know, kind of leaning into imperfection. And you know, I think Nico over the years has got, has been trained well by me in how, how to say that, you know, his, his default I would say is more on the wisdom side of things like seeing clearly. And so I appreciate that kind of cutting through and this sense of. For me, I can better hear that cutting through that wisdom if it's held in this. Oh, I feel you. I care about you like I care about this suffering first. And so again, we weren't always natural at this, but over the years learning, oh, this is what the process, you know, kind of how do we shepherd each other into these deeper places of shared compassion and wisdom?
- [45:09]
A
Thank you. Nico, how would you describe for yourself what's the kind of deepest way experience of who you are together?
- [45:21]
C
I think the first thing I need to say is that the first time that I visited Devin in her cabin, I said precisely the wrong thing.
- [45:28]
B
That's true.
- [45:30]
C
With as much passion and confidence as I possibly could, fully believing that it was the right thing to say. And that rupture lasted for many weeks because we didn't have a chance to repair it before we came back. I mean, Devin essentially had to do her own repair alone in the cabin. Because I was in graduate school far, far away, I had to do my own repair while being very busy writing papers that nobody would ever read. So just to say we have so many moments where we do not get it right. We do not to say the right thing. We do not follow our own principles that we are laying out in this book. We are messy, we have all kinds of difficulties. We tend to be immature sometimes it's just kind of. Am I allowed to say shit show on this podcast? It's kind of a shit show being in relationship long term with the complexities of life, the complexities of personalities, old hurts, all kinds of things. So that one thing. And then for me the. The biggest transformation that has happened over the years of doing this is that I have learned that I don't need so much personal space and that actually I can co regulate. I used to be somebody who needed, you know, an hour or two alone every day just to feel like I was a functioning human being who could be with other people. And through this process of practicing together, verbally practicing together, sitting together in rain and hearing each other deeply in this way that is sort of release for me. I love to spend time alone, but I don't have this gripping need that If I don't spend time alone, I'm not going to be okay. And that's true with Devin, but it's also true with everybody. I can be around other people and feel like I'm regulating with them. I'm part of things. So it's been a very deeply healing process for me. And a lot of that has come straight out of doing partner reign together.
- [47:54]
A
The takeaway for me is that but in the process of relating, you've become intrinsically more flexible, which is freedom.
- [48:04]
C
Definitely.
- [48:05]
A
Which is freedom. And we all come in with all sorts of patterns and preferences, but to the degree that there's more space around them, we're more free. So.
- [48:15]
B
Yeah, well, and I just want to add that it's also based on so much acceptance. Like Nico's saying, like, we have to also just be okay with this might always be hard, you know, and we might not get it right. And I love quoting Carl Rogers, who said, the curious paradox is that as soon as we accept ourselves, then we can change. So, and we write about this in the book, it's like that middle way. Actually, the Buddha was all about the middle way. It's the middle way of accepting myself as I am right now and accepting Nico as he is right now. And also, like your. Like you're saying there's then a spaciousness within that allowing it's built into rain so that we can learn. And it does lead to more flexibility. But that's a tricky paradox, is like, how do I be okay if it doesn't? You know, like, probably we'll get more flexible and better at this together. And if we don't, like, how do we do that still, you know, assuming that relationships are rough ongoingly. So it's always a both.
- [49:16]
A
And I think, yeah, I wonder, as I'm listening when I. Again, I'm kind of. We're all in this relational field that for us, I think there's enough trust in the basic goodness. The who that other is that there's basic. That the other's basically awareness and love. That who. The what's looking out through your eyes is what's looking out through mine. That it. It actually allows for enough safety and trust. So it can be as imperfect and edgy as it sometimes is without changing too much.
- [49:55]
C
Well said.
- [49:56]
B
And we say this in the book, like, sometimes also what that leads to is trusting that you need to leave. You know, like, there's a way that we can have healthy change, relationship shift. You know, we do have different agreements that might change over time. And still see that what's looking out through the other's eyes is love and compassion. And recognizing the truth of change is part of this, too. Like, at some point, all meetings end in separation. And so can we continue to practice in this skillful way through whatever is to come next? You know, we have a friend, a dharma teacher, who kind of teased us when we released this book. She's like, well, now you can never get a divorce. He wrote this book.
- [50:36]
A
You know, who knows? I mean, unless we have the humility of uncertainty. Well, that. Okay, so this leads me to. I had a couple of questions that go into the direction you're bringing up, Devin. The first is for you, and that is that it's a rare few of Buddhist teachers who talk about sex. Really, really few. And talk about in any way that has anybody, like, perk up and say, yeah, this could be meaningful to me. And you done that. Not in earlier writings, but in this book, in the chapter called Unlearning Perfect Sex. And so I want to ask you just to share what some of your realizations have been, the kind of seeing through some of the assumptions that have been really freeing for you.
- [51:26]
B
Sure. I mean, I can say even in this conversation, there's a kind of I have some inhibition. I mean, it's a. A tough topic. I'm not one. I think I'm sort of naturally shy in this area. I have a lot of curiosity, but I'm not one who's, like, wanting to, you know, be public about sex all the time. So it was a challenge in the first book to write that chapter. And then we had some podcasts where we had to talk about sex. And now here it is again. Well, thank you for being.
- [51:57]
A
It was hard to even ask the question. That's right.
- [52:01]
B
We all have to get up against our edges. It's like, oh, it's hard and it's personal. And so I understand why, you know, there isn't actually a huge lexicon of teachings on sex. And yet I do think if we're being honest about a path of awakening, you know, our life is our practice, every part of our life, and all of our relationships are for waking up. Then especially maybe the parts that are maybe shadowy or repressed or, you know, kept very private. Those. To me, there's a lot of interest and curiosity and not knowing actually, like, well, what happens if we do talk about this? You know, what can we learn together? And definitely not finished for me. I mean, I still have all these pockets and edges, but I do have now a good Practice with Nico. In terms of talking, you know, I can say, like, it's so helpful to just be able to name all these dynamics. And first book, second book, both chapters were very cathartic for me to write. Like, just to name, oh, yeah, all the stuff that's going on here. There's objectification. There's this sense of needing to be perfect. There's a lot of body insecurity. There's performance. There's all this pressure. And so to just name it as a path of awakening, like, as we've been saying again and again, let's just get honest about what's all here in the room. And then, same thing with my body, like, in that long retreat. I think I write about this in the chapter, the long cabin retreat we did. We had time. I mean, first of all, very relaxed. So that's helpful to have time and to have a body that was relaxed enough. I wasn't, like, plugged in. I didn't have a lot of digital stuff around me, like. Like being able to live in my senses in a different way so that I could feel the, like, tightening and closing down when that happened. And I can feel the opening and the easing and the releasing when that happened. That was a lot of my own work. Not even very sexual, but just on the cushion. Like, understanding the subtle body and the energetics of that and all that is really. I am so into that. Like, I think maybe like Utara, my entrance to meditation was yoga. So lot of interest in different yogas and how to understand and read. It's like a new language. You know, the way the energy is moved through the channels. And because we were in a Tibetan retreat, it's very helpful. We had Rinpoche, who were helping teach us this particular map of the energetics. And traditionally, that involves sexual energy, too. You know, sexual energy in its most pure form in Tantra is about liberation. It's about release. And so it was very healing for me to lean into that as a liberative practice, because so much of my cultural background and my fear and shyness was like, my body's not okay. This is a scary thing. I can't talk about it. Like, just gotta get through it. And, you know, there was a lot of those layers that I had to kind of work through in order to realize, just like every other part of us just wants to be loved. And, okay, here's a way that we can love this and be open about it and then see what frees up what's, you know, able in this relational space. To get more free. And that's ongoing. Like, I don't know if that ever has an end, but it certainly has been such a delight, really, and an honor to get to do that on my own and then also with a partner who is equally curious and not looking for perfection. So helpful. So helpful.
- [55:42]
A
Well, I really want to encourage again people to read this because you invite an inquiry into assumptions that most of us hold that actually keep us from living and loving fully. You know how pervasive body shame is. You can't have a culture that objectifies bodies and has certain ideas of perfection and not have a huge majority of people with body shame. And how does that affect sexuality? Big time. Big time. And you talk about performance, all these ideas of how we're supposed. What we're supposed to want or not want and how we're supposed to engage and how it's never perfect or right and how to, like, really be okay with that. And I really love the way you get into power. I mean, I think that it's such a unfaced, unseen element of how we relate to power and not open to the actual play of power dynamics in sex. So, again, I mean, I'm going to invite readers to go for it because I feel like it's very, very, very valuable and useful for most people. And, Nico, my question for you is actually kind of related because one of the realizations that Devin has is really how sexuality is always changing and in a bigger way, life is always changing. And you have a gorgeous chapter on Death is the mother of beauty. And I just want you to give us a little bit of a taste from there.
- [57:24]
C
Sure. That phrase, death is the mother of beauty comes from a Wallace Stevens poem that. That I've always loved since I read it in high school. And his perspective is that the impermanence, the passing ness of everything is what imbues it with its poignancy and its beauty and what wakes us up to what is actually here. And so if we apply that perspective to our partnership, if we really let it land for us that we don't know how much time we have together, like really let that land, then whether or not your partner did the dishes or whether they got the oil changed on the car or whether they said the right thing at the right time becomes much, much less important. And there's this kind of preciousness of the opportunity to be together. The connection that you do have, the very imperfect, complicated, you know, sort of uncontrollable thing that you are in becomes the. The, like the potential for awakening itself. And it's like, there's something about just letting yourself know. I don't know how much time I have. That really wakes you up to what you've got.
- [58:59]
A
Do you have a way that you reflect on that each day? Like, do you have a short, brief way you can invite other people into?
- [59:10]
C
It's that phrase for me. I don't know how much time I have.
- [59:17]
A
Yeah.
- [59:17]
C
I don't know how much time we have. So what do I want to do with this?
- [59:27]
A
I'm going slow here, because I feel like if we can take that in, we'll be way more awake. So. Thank you. Yeah. So. Oh, my gosh. I'm just looking at time because there's a bunch of stuff I wanted to do. One of the things you talk about, both of you, that I don't remember which one wrote this, but about how deep our conditioning is to achieve, to progress, to get somewhere. And we can do it with our relationships, too. What's our edge? What are we working on? And it really. It overrides what's probably. I remember when I wrote my list of what I was looking for in a partner, you know, the top. In a relationship. The top thing I wrote was fun. That was my number one. That was before spiritual awakening, by the way. So just talk about this. The serious business of fun as you describe it.
- [60:25]
B
Yeah, this is great, Tara, because, again, it's so fun to see you. I have all these touch points of our conversations over the years, and I remember this specifically. I was in a hammock, actually, also in Madison. This is when we lived here a decade ago. Nico was doing his PhD. Very intense time in our lives. I was teaching MBSR and just kind of getting started as a Dharma teacher. And we were both so tired. And I think there was just like that. You know, when you're so exhausted and your lives are hard, there's this underlying tension that just was kind of running through. I think we had that for a couple years. We were just, like, trying to do the thing. And I remember talking to you, Tara, and being like, this is hard. We're very busy. And you told me you and Jonathan had just made a vow to schedule fun. That was my assignment. That was my homework. That. That we had to actually, like. Like, be real about putting on the calendar, like, when's our vacation? Or even just going out to dinner together, going to see a movie, like, bring in the fun. And it was. It's a touchstone still for us. Like, I think this chapter was born then because we're still working on it. I mean, it's very easy to get serious and super busy, and it's so fun. I just was talking to Los Armanto, you know, our mutual friend and colleague, and they're coming to teach with us this summer, and they're like, I just. The only thing I want to teach this summer is fun. Like, let's bring bubbles and let's sing with the ukulele. You know, like, let's sing some Dharma songs. And I really think the death as our teacher, definitely. And also fun as our teacher. Like, how do we live a life of necessary joy, especially given the world as it is, and especially given the fleeting nature of what we have won't last. So we're trying to take this seriously. We are putting things on the calendar. We. I mean, Nico, maybe you want to talk about being a dj. We're constantly like, what's our next thing? That's actually not in our Buddhist community, but outside, you know, in a totally different way. So I'll just say it's been really fun to come home in the last 24 hours and hear Nico in his, like, DJ setup. Just music pumping. Like, this is a new thing for us. But Nico has a secret identity as a dj.
- [62:48]
C
No. You out of it.
- [62:49]
A
It's not so secret.
- [62:50]
B
Well, not secret anymore.
- [62:52]
A
You and your 20,000 closest friends. Yeah, well, you know, there's a reason it needs to be on purpose. So we just get habituated. It's like that whole thing of consciousness being like a flashlight versus a lantern. We are so fixated in narrow, busy ways. And when you start doing more lantern consciousness, it happens more spontaneously. Fun happens, but we basically rule it out for a lot of the time. So I love your ruling it in, and I can't not ask you this. One part of what keeps us narrow is technology.
- [63:30]
C
Oh, my goodness.
- [63:31]
A
And we know it. Okay, so we all know the addiction is the distraction. How it just takes over our attention. How do you two work with it and what do you recommend?
- [63:42]
C
Yeah, we work with it. I mean, that's the first thing. It's not that we've solved this and we're done. It's that we are continually working with it. And yesterday during our check in, I was telling Devin that for quite a while, I had gotten good at putting my email responder on for two or three days a week and staying off my apps and pretty much everything except texting and phone calls and that some. Somewhere along the way, I lost that. And now, for the last several months, I'm just on all the time. All the time. And one of my aspirations starting this weekend is to go back to that two days a week where I'm pretty much off, like offline. Not completely offline, but much, much more offline. Not checking my email, not doing work things, not in touch with people except through phone and chat, like my closest friends and family. So just re establishing that again and again and again. For me, it's not always Saturday and Sunday because I'm a Buddhist teacher, I have all kinds of strange things going on on the weekends. That means, okay, maybe it's going to be Tuesday and Wednesday this week for me, but it's going to be two days a week. And then the other thing, this is really strange, but I'm on Instagram a lot. We are on Instagram. You know, we're always posting on Instagram because we want to get the message out to people what we're talking about. But I don't have Instagram on my phone. You know, I won't have it on my phone. So I actually was hanging out with DJs the other day and I wanted to follow this guy on Instagram and I gave him my phone to, you know, like, put his name in so I could follow him. And he was like, you're on your browser. Why?
- [65:36]
A
It's.
- [65:36]
C
It's. This is terrible. This doesn't work at all. And I said, that's the point. It's so unpleasant to do it this way that it stops me from continually looking. If I have the app, I'm on it all the time. And so I need these little friction points, right? So what tech companies are doing is making everything frictionless. So we just get into it, into it, into it, into it. So I need to reintroduce friction whether it's putting my email responder on or not having Instagram on my phone or whatever it is, a little barrier is enough to keep me from habituating to just going on it, on and on it.
- [66:17]
B
I love that these are great questions, Tara, because it feels like as you're talking, I'm thinking about this as a relationship, right? If I'm in relationship with my phone and my computer, which is true, then I need to be internally mindful of what's happening to me with these devices. And I pretty much know my external mindfulness is that they're designed to be addictive. They want me all the time, right? So. So just knowing that, that it's a relational mindfulness practice and that I have to learn how to set really healthy Boundaries, you know, like Nico's talking about. These are all the ways that we can be in healthy boundaries. But for me, it comes back to lamasom's question about is this relationship creating bodhichitta in the world? And I do, in my best moments, when I'm like, micro dosing Instagram and when I'm on email just long enough to, like, get it done, then I close my computer. And I do have that sense of. These are very powerful tools for connection. And I think, at least for us, but many people, these relationships changed when Covid hit, right? We all started zooming a ton. I mean, some of us already were through the mindfulness meditation teacher training program and all this. We were on zoom. But now it's like Dharma became very accessible through technology, and we were able to teach in our van and all of these different places around the country. And what a. What a beautiful thing that people can access, you know, from all over the place. And, I mean, I really hope that our Instagram posts are helping people. It's been fun to make little videos about these relationship pieces, you know, So I think for me, if I can keep it based in that kind of bodhichitta and really be mindful, like, it's really like a minute for me. If I can scroll for a minute on Instagram and rejoice in people's, you know, their kids and like, the videos I have of surfing and trees, then I'm like, great, that was a little hit of joy. And now I'm done and I'm closing it down, you know, so being honest about that, like, when is it no longer bodhichitta? And it's just craving and addiction versus. But I was talking to a student recently about this. She's like, it's just like sugar, you know, we have to eat. We have to. We're constantly in relationship with food. And yet how do we kind of feel that boundary of, like, how. How much is enough? And then do we stop? And that's the same thing with these. We're always in relationship with our email. So it's. To me, it's not all or nothing. It's like this middle way of how do we stay rooted in bodhichitta and be very honest about when it tips over?
- [68:51]
A
I. I really appreciate both of your wisdom on this because it's not a good bad with technology. It's. It's. How is this serving and. Which brings, you know, you started this way, and I think we're closing this way that the deep inquiry in any moment Is how might this serve more love?
- [69:11]
C
Yes.
- [69:12]
A
You know, how might this serve more love? And so maybe in that spirit, if there's any final message for anyone that wants to grow love in their life, that's listening right now. Any reminder that you feel like you'd like to leave people with.
- [69:33]
C
I would like to leave people with the reminder that if you are struggling in your partnership, it is not your fault. It does not mean that something is wrong. It does not mean that you are broken or that your partnership is broken. It is actually a natural part of deep intimacy over a long period, and it's in some. And it can be good news. It can be a way to deepen your own love and your own awakened heart.
- [70:08]
A
I just want to go slow because. Hear ye, hear ye. You know, really, we so quickly think something's our fault, and it blocks us from how it can be a portal to waking up. So thank you, Devin.
- [70:23]
B
Yeah. There's this deep teaching in Dharma around that same alchemy that Nico's naming, that we actually use our dukkha or our suffering to create deeper trust and deeper love. And it's an important turn. You know, that's a lot. I think our main message in this book is, like, don't shy away from the dukkha because it has deep teaching and the. The capacity, the potential for more compassion, more equanimity, which I would say are two qualities we really need in the world now, are right there. So we do some of these meditations I've been guiding lately. This. I love doing this meditation where you really take your person, if it's your partner or loved one or a friend, and you really hold them in a lot of wisdom. You imagine them, all of the ways you know them, the ways you love them, but also their challenges and the ways that they get triggered and, you know, are difficult humans sometimes. And you hold that with so much love and respect. Like, I see you fully, and you're my person, and I'm with you in it. You know, just the same way we would want to be held with compassion and equanimity. And to me, that piece of, like, total allowance, total acceptance, because I know you so well in your humanity is so healing. It's like reminding ourselves again and again why we're in this and then kind of recommitting, like, I'm here for it, you know, loving that person exactly as they are, sort of like loving ourselves and others back into wholeness. And it can be practiced. You know, it's a natural capacity we have but it can also be trained.
- [72:07]
A
Trained? Yeah. If we did it every day, everything would unfold in an amazing way. So. Oof. Devin, Nico, you guys are awesome. Your book, Messy, Gorgeous Love is I just. Anyone listening? I really. It will offer huge, huge nurturance for close partnerships, friendships for any relationship. So thank you, my friends.
- [72:39]
B
Oh, Tara, thank you for being such a beautiful teacher and friend for many decades now. So much gratitude to you. Thank you.
- [72:49]
A
Blessings.
- [72:50]
C
Thank you.