Podcast Summary

Podcast: Tara Brach
Episode: This Messy, Gorgeous Love—a Conversation with Tara and Devon and Nico Hase
Date: April 9, 2026

Overview

This rich, thoughtful episode features Tara Brach in conversation with friends and fellow Buddhist teachers, Devon and Nico Hase, authors of the new book This Messy, Gorgeous Love: A Buddhist Guide to Lasting Partnership. Together, they explore the interweaving of spiritual practice and intimate partnership, highlighting how ‘messiness’ can be a portal to awakening, growth, and deeper love. The discussion ranges across vulnerability in relationships, conflict styles, co-regulation, the transformative power of practice (especially RAIN), sexuality, impermanence, joy, technology, and the importance of embracing imperfection and humor.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Partnership as a Spiritual Path

[03:23–07:15]

• Devon and Nico talk about how, from their very first date, their relationship was centered on spiritual awakening.
• Their wedding vows included: “I vow to be your partner in awakening.” (Nico, 04:50)
• Tara relates a similar theme from her own wedding, where she and her husband Jonathan vowed: “May whatever arises…all the intensity…serve to awaken, and may our relationship be part of serving the larger awakening.” (Tara, 06:16)
• Early challenges—like life changes and conflicting needs—were recognized as moments on the spiritual path.

2. Navigating Conflict: Styles, Triggers & Repair

[10:36–25:19]

• Early significant disagreements—like a life change at the Zen monastery—were seen as opportunities for deepening practice, rather than as evidence that something was wrong.
• Differences in decision-making, processing, and needs surfaced repeatedly, leading to key insight: “Difference, even a conflict in needs, doesn't mean something's wrong. It just means it's an invitation to deepen attention with curiosity.” (Tara, 12:26)

The Van Incident

[13:21–21:59]

• Nico recounts a harrowing story where his overconfidence almost led their RV off a cliff, triggering Devin’s nervous system.
• “If you push her far enough, she will definitely get pissed…But I have complete and total faith that she will come back.” (Nico, 18:55)
• Devin temporarily leaves to self-regulate, while Nico immediately owns the mistake. The story demonstrates both rupture and skillful repair.
• Their contrasting needs: Devin prefers co-regulating after most conflicts, Nico often needs to self-regulate first, and both have grown in flexibility by honoring these patterns.

Co-Regulation & Self-Regulation

• Tara notes this as an advanced relational skill, which rests on self-awareness and acceptance: “For many people…we go into a lot of the much more neurotic responses, which is, I want to fix you, I want to problem-solve, or too quickly reframe.” (Tara, 21:59)
• Devin adds: “A lot of it is just…understanding my own triggers…when I’m nervous…I'm going to want to fix him. And just knowing that, that’s kind of the go-to…very helpful.” (23:03)

3. Conflict Typologies & Embracing Messiness

[25:19–35:42]

• Devin introduces three conflict styles discussed in their book, influenced by the Gottmans:
  • Dodgers: Avoid conflict, maintain peace but can let issues simmer
  • Diplomats: Want to talk things out, skilled at negotiation
  • Volcanoes: Have intense emotions and rupture openly, but can quickly move on
• Both Nico and Devin identify as “volcanoes” with each other, but Devin is more of a "dodger" with friends.
• Tara and Jonathan are a “pursuer and avoider” mix—pursuer/diplomat (Tara) and dodger (Jonathan).
• “According to the research, it’s more common to have mismatches.” (Tara, 29:33)
• Key insight: “Allow that your style doesn’t need to change.…So much tension falls away when we can allow ourselves to have the style we actually inhabit and let our partner be what they are.” (Nico, 30:58)
• Mutual naming and accepting of differences, without demanding change, creates flexibility and space for compassion.

4. Relational Practice: Check-ins, RAIN & Partner RAIN

[35:42–47:54]

• The Hasese use daily check-ins and the mindfulness-based RAIN process (Recognize, Allow, Investigate, Nurture) to process feelings, including in conflict.
• “Partner RAIN” is a facilitated practice where both partners move inward to investigate feelings separately, then return to share and reflect.
• “We do Partner RAIN almost daily. We really love this practice.” (Devin, 36:40)
• Tara: “After the RAIN, naming the actual shift in identity…you open up to who you are beyond your separateness.” (41:55)

5. The Deepest Transformation: Beyond Separate Identity

[41:55–45:08]

• Tara invites stories of the “profound sense you open up to…beyond separateness.”
• Devin shares a memory of Nico’s words: “It’s the greatest honor to have a front row seat to your awakening.” (Devin, 43:00)
• Nico notes the messiness and error-prone nature of real relationships: “We do not always get this right…We are messy.” (Nico, 45:29)
• Through practice, Nico discovers he needs less isolation and can co-regulate with others, a source of healing and freedom.

6. Acceptance, Flexibility & Freedom

[47:54–49:16]

• Tara and the Hasese agree: ongoing practice and acceptance of rough patches create flexibility, which is synonymous with freedom.
• “The curious paradox is that as soon as we accept ourselves, then we can change.” (Devin quoting Carl Rogers, 48:15)
• The importance of accepting relationship difficulty as normal, not as a sign of brokenness.

7. Sex, Impermanence, and the Fullness of the Path

[50:36–59:27]

• Devin discusses breaking silence around sex in Buddhist circles, and her personal journey unpacking shame, performance pressure, and body insecurity.
• “All the stuff that’s going on…just wants to be loved. And, okay, here’s a way that we can love this and be open about it and then see what frees up.” (Devin, 53:32)
• Nico shares about impermanence: “If we really let it land for us that we don’t know how much time we have together…there’s this preciousness of the opportunity to be together.” (Nico, 57:24)
• His mantra: “I don’t know how much time we have. So what do I want to do with this?” (Nico, 59:16)

8. Joy, Fun & Technology

[60:25–68:50]

• Tara and the Hasese stress not overlooking fun—intentionally scheduling activities and joy, especially amid difficulty: “Fun as our teacher…how do we live a life of necessary joy, especially given the world as it is…” (Devin, 60:25)
• Technology and attention: Nico describes practical boundary techniques (“I won’t have Instagram on my phone,” 65:36) and “introducing friction” to avoid being constantly online. Devin frames relating to technology as a relationship to be managed mindfully.
• “It’s a middle way: how do we stay rooted in bodhichitta and be honest about when it tips over?” (Devin, 68:16)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the purpose of partnership:
  “Let’s be partners in awakening. That has felt like a kind of North Star ever since that ritual day.” —Nico, [04:50]

• On fixing vs. accepting:
  “A lot of it is just…understanding my own triggers…when I’m nervous…I'm going to want to fix him.” —Devin, [23:03]

• On embracing conflict styles:
  “Allow that your style doesn’t need to change. So much tension falls away when we can allow ourselves to have the style we actually genuinely inhabit and then let our partner be what they are.” —Nico, [30:58]

• On the pain and value of rupture:
  “We are messy…sometimes it's just kind of…shit show being in relationship long term with the complexities of life.” —Nico, [45:29]

• On healing through witnessing:
  “It’s the greatest honor to have a front row seat to your awakening.” —Devin (to Nico), [43:00]

• On fun:
  “Fun as our teacher…how do we live a life of necessary joy, especially given the world as it is, and especially given the fleeting nature of what we have won’t last?” —Devin, [60:25]

• On impermanence:
  “‘I don’t know how much time we have.’ So what do I want to do with this?” —Nico, [59:16]

• On not blaming oneself for relational difficulty:
  “If you are struggling in your partnership, it is not your fault…It is actually a natural part of deep intimacy over a long period.” —Nico, [69:32]

Practical Tools Mentioned

• Check-ins: Structured sharing sessions to surface inner and outer truth.
• RAIN Practice (Recognize, Allow, Investigate, Nurture): For individual and partner processing.
• Partner RAIN: Doing the RAIN process side-by-side, then sharing insights.
• Conflict Styles Typology: Understanding if you’re a Dodger, Diplomat, or Volcano.
• Scheduling Fun: Proactively planning joy to counterbalance pressure and busyness.
• Mindful Technology Boundaries: Barriers, scheduled offline time, and “friction” for healthier use.

Closing Insights & Reminders

• Difficulty and ruptures are not signs of failure but part of the territory of intimacy.
  “It can be a way to deepen your own love and your own awakened heart.” —Nico, [69:32]
• The path isn’t about fixing ourselves or our partner, but using dukkha (suffering) as an opportunity for greater compassion.
• Deep relational practice is an alchemical path, where holding ourselves and others in full, imperfect humanity is a source of healing.
• Practice, flexibility, and acceptance open the space for love to flourish, in all its messy, gorgeous forms.