Harry Shum Jr.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Thanks Dad with Ego Nwodim – Episode Featuring Harry Shum Jr.

Podcast Information:

• Title: Thanks Dad with Ego Nwodim
• Host/Author: Headgum
• Episode: Harry Shum Jr.
• Release Date: October 21, 2024
• Description: On "Thanks Dad," Ego Nwodim invites father figures to be her “Dad for the Day,” engaging in humorous and heartfelt conversations about their experiences with their own fathers and as parents. Each episode concludes with practical advice on topics ranging from relationships to life skills.

---

1. Introduction and Context (00:00 - 02:00)

Ego Nwodim opens the episode by sharing her personal background, highlighting that she was raised by a single mother and had limited or no relationship with her father. She introduces Harry Shum Jr. as her guest, playfully referring to him as her "Dad for the Day." Harry is an acclaimed actor and dancer, known for his roles in Glee, Grey’s Anatomy, and Everything Everywhere All at Once. He is also the co-author of the children's book Marty Dares to Dance alongside his wife, Shelby Ribara.

Notable Quote:

• Ego Nwodim (00:12): "I was raised by a single mom, and I don't have a relationship with my dad."

---

2. Guest Background: Harry Shum Jr. (02:00 - 06:00)

Harry Shum Jr. reflects on his desire to be a father and how he always envisioned his life milestones, including marriage and fatherhood, without fully contemplating the responsibilities involved. He shares his immigrant background, with both parents having moved from China to Costa Rica before settling in the United States, specifically San Francisco and later San Luis Obispo.

Notable Quote:

• Harry Shum Jr. (02:44): "I always thought of my life as, as these, you know, you hit these points in your life. You're like, I'm gonna get married. I'm gonna be a dad."

---

3. Discussing Parenthood and Father Figures (06:00 - 12:00)

The conversation delves into Harry’s upbringing, emphasizing the practical and responsible nature of his father. Harry appreciates the foundational lessons his father imparted, such as responsibility and hard work, which have significantly influenced his approach to life and parenting.

Notable Quote:

• Harry Shum Jr. (03:31): "My dad, he is. He's very practical. He's very reserved in the sense that he's a type of guy who just likes to work."

---

4. Financial Responsibility and Life Skills (12:00 - 22:00)

Harry recounts how his parents instilled financial responsibility in him from a young age. By the age of ten, he was already contributing to the family business by handling tasks at his parents' Chinese restaurant. This early exposure to work taught him essential life skills, such as budgeting and balancing a checkbook, which he later applied in his career as a dancer and actor.

Notable Quote:

• Harry Shum Jr. (21:46): "I booked a tour with this pop star, young pop star named Casey... making the band and we toured Europe."

---

5. Mental Health and Emotional Expression (22:00 - 37:00)

Ego and Harry discuss the challenges of emotional expression, especially within the context of Harry’s immigrant parents who emphasized strength and practicality over emotional vulnerability. Harry acknowledges the difficulties he faced in expressing emotions and highlights the importance of mental health awareness in modern parenting.

Notable Quote:

• Harry Shum Jr. (36:57): "I was able to also. I was a very sensitive kid myself."

---

6. Balancing Parenting Roles (37:00 - 47:00)

Harry explains his approach to parenting alongside his wife, Shelby Ribara. He emphasizes the importance of teamwork, acknowledging Shelby’s strengths and his own, to create a balanced and supportive environment for their daughter. They discuss the evolving dynamics of modern parenting and the absence of a singular "right way" to parent.

Notable Quote:

• Harry Shum Jr. (43:15): "It's like, we are looking at how can you make things less harder on yourself and for other people that you love."

---

7. Advice on Dating: Red Flags and Green Flags (53:00 - 59:00)

In a heartfelt segment, Ego asks Harry to provide dating advice as if he were her father. Harry offers practical tips, such as observing eye contact during conversations as a red flag and understanding personal values and lifestyle preferences to identify green flags in potential partners.

Notable Quote:

• Harry Shum Jr. (55:15): "Where are his eyes when he's talking to you?"
• Harry Shum Jr. (56:50): "What are your values and your morals."

---

8. Final Thoughts and Advice (59:00 - 62:00)

The episode concludes with Harry sharing his beliefs about luck and destiny, emphasizing the importance of self-work before becoming a parent. He stresses the significance of controlling one's reactions and maintaining self-awareness to provide a stable and supportive environment for his child.

Notable Quote:

• Harry Shum Jr. (60:37): "Once you've done the work on yourself... you're going to have better advice."

---

9. Closing Remarks (62:00 - End)

Ego wraps up the episode by expressing gratitude towards Harry and highlighting the collaborative effort behind the podcast's production. She emphasizes the importance of diverse father figures and the invaluable insights they bring to the table.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Practical Fatherhood: Harry Shum Jr. showcases the importance of practical life skills and financial responsibility imparted by parents.
• Emotional Awareness: The conversation underscores the significance of emotional expression and mental health in modern parenting.
• Balanced Parenting: Effective parenting involves teamwork, leveraging each parent's strengths to create a supportive environment.
• Dating Advice: Observing non-verbal cues and understanding personal values are crucial in identifying suitable partners.
• Personal Growth: Continuous self-improvement and emotional control are essential for providing a stable and nurturing environment for children.

Notable Quotes Compilation:

1. Ego Nwodim (00:12): "I was raised by a single mom, and I don't have a relationship with my dad."
2. Harry Shum Jr. (02:44): "I always thought of my life as, as these, you know, you hit these points in your life. You're like, I'm gonna get married. I'm gonna be a dad."
3. Harry Shum Jr. (03:31): "My dad, he is. He's very practical. He's very reserved in the sense that he's a type of guy who just likes to work."
4. Harry Shum Jr. (21:46): "I booked a tour with this pop star, young pop star named Casey... making the band and we toured Europe."
5. Harry Shum Jr. (36:57): "I was able to also. I was a very sensitive kid myself."
6. Harry Shum Jr. (43:15): "It's like, we are looking at how can you make things less harder on yourself and for other people that you love."
7. Harry Shum Jr. (55:15): "Where are his eyes when he's talking to you?"
8. Harry Shum Jr. (56:50): "What are your values and your morals."
9. Harry Shum Jr. (60:37): "Once you've done the work on yourself... you're going to have better advice."

---

Conclusion: This episode of "Thanks Dad with Ego Nwodim" offers a profound exploration of fatherhood, personal growth, and the balance between practical responsibilities and emotional well-being. Through her engaging conversation with Harry Shum Jr., Ego provides listeners with valuable insights into nurturing meaningful relationships and fostering personal development.

Transcript

[Harry Shum Jr.]

This is a Headgun podcast.

[Ego Wodom]

Hi, guys. I'm Ego Wodom, and welcome to thanks, dad. If you do not know which, why would you know? But maybe you do know because you've watched an interview or two of mine. I was raised by a single mom, and I don't have a relationship with my dad. You probably don't know that part. I've kept that a little close to the vest. But also, guys, my dad died last year. Do not feel sorry for me. Don't go, aww, it's totally fine. I didn't have a relationship with him, and people die. It's part of life. And that's my grim take. So on this podcast, I'm sitting down with father figures who are old enough to be my dad or are just dads themselves. Maybe we're the same age, but I'm like, you look like a dad. You could be my dad. I want you to be my dad. Please be my dad. And I'm gonna get to the questions I've always wanted to ask a dad. Such as? Like, I don't know, how do I know if the guy I'm dating is right for me? Or what should I look for when buying a car? Or can you teach me how to change my oil? Maybe we will take the podcast on the road and we will see one of these father figures teach me how to change my oil. I also don't have a car. So again, maybe he helps me buy a car and then teaches me how to change the oil on that car. Anyway, I am so excited to welcome today's dad. My dad, he's an actor, a dancer. He's best known for his roles on Glee, Grey's Anatomy, and Everything Everywhere all at once. He has a children's book that he co wrote with his wife, Shelby Ribara. Marty Dares to dance. Please welcome my dad for the day, Harry Shum junior. Hey. Hey, dad. Hey, hey, dad.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That's a dad.

[Ego Wodom]

Hey, hey, dad.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Hey.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Okay, Harry. So you are a dad.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I.

[Ego Wodom]

In real life, not just dad. You are officially, in the case of me, you are.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

We gotta go through a vetting process.

[Ego Wodom]

I guess, before you accept me as your daughter.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ego Wodom]

Really?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Ego Wodom]

I'm being interviewed.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Maybe.

[Ego Wodom]

I hope I can. I hope you'll adopt me.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I think you're heading towards the right place.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Okay. Very good. Very good. I feel like we're all so close in age, so this is perfect. I've always wanted to be the same age as my dad.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Could you imagine you pop out and your daughter's like, 20, 25, 20 what? I guess I don't have to teach you myself, do I?

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah, you probably. And that's. That's tragic though. Imagine a full grown adult and coming out and knowing nothing.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Wasn't that kind of. What's that movie, Pretty Things or whatever?

[Ego Wodom]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's kind of. It's touching on that. It's tangentially related. Okay. Tell me about being a dad. Did you always want to be a dad?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, I did. I always, you know, I always thought of my life as, as these, you know, you hit these points in your life. You're like, I'm gonna get married. I'm gonna be a dad. But the dad part was just vague, right? You know, you're like, are you gonna be a dad? It's gonna be fine.

[Ego Wodom]

Oh, really? You just knew?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I mean, yeah, but you didn't think about the intricacies of, like, all the things that are involved with, like, responsibility. You just, like, you think like, yeah, but my parents did it.

[Ego Wodom]

They did it. And that's fine. Okay. So were you raised by both of your parents?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I was.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah. My, My mom and dad, they're. They're immigrants from. From China to Costa Rica to here. So double immigrants.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Very immigrant.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Very immigrant. Super immigrant. But yeah, they, they, they came and. Yeah, I was raised by. By both of them.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. And what is your dad like?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

My dad, he is. He's very practical. He's very reserved in the sense that he's a type of guy who just likes to work. Okay. But is very responsible in the sense, like whatever the kid, whatever the family needs.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

There.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So I was very fortunate to have that kind of baseline of, of just seeing a dad that he would. It's my duty. It's my duty to do this.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Everything else is kind of like, okay, yeah, we'll figure it out. Okay, that's my duty to be here and be your dad.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Where did they, where did you from? It was China, Costa Rica, and then the States. Yes, the States.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

San Francisco.

[Ego Wodom]

San Francisco. Okay. From Bay Area. Do you do the, like a little E40? What is it going dumb is that you remember that you're a dancer?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That was the thing that was kind of that time. Well, it's funny because I moved from. We went to San Francisco for like two years, and then we moved to San Luis Obispo, which is completely a different vibe. There are no E40 there.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Are there even people of color there?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Besides, you guys, very rare. I happen to be. Those are, like, the friends that I still only talk to.

[Ego Wodom]

Really?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ego Wodom]

Wait, so did you do high. You did high school in. Don't you guys call it slow?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Slow.

[Ego Wodom]

Hey, you know, because I went to college here, and so I know a little too much about California. It's almost. Yeah. It's almost as though I'm from here. And every once in a while, people will say, are you. We're in Los Angeles right now, guys. Spoiler. People will say to me, like, oh, you're. I. I know you from California. I go, hold on. I'm from Baltimore. I am from Baltimore. I'm not from California. But I did become an adult here, if you will. I turned eight. Things I figured, and I stay. I was here until I moved to New York, but. So I know a little bit. I know a little bit. I know you guys call it slow. Yeah. That's ironic that you are still very good friends with those high school friends, because I feel like so many people are not friends with their high school friends.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I mean, you know, there's people that. It's funny because you hear about them, and I'm not on, like, Facebook or anything, so I don't know what's happening.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But I. We moved down here together to pursue dance.

[Ego Wodom]

Oh, okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So that became. You know, it was. I'm so glad we had that foundation. So, like, going back to even, like. Like, not having that and parents that might not know. My parents didn't know what I was doing. They're just, like, not going to school and doing what.

[Ego Wodom]

You know, I know about that. You know about that.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's just, like, explain this to me. But you're like, how am I gonna explain this?

[Ego Wodom]

And how. Wait, honestly. Okay. When you told your dad and your mom that you wanted to be a dancer, and so did you. First of all, you didn't go to college.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I can't even say that.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I couldn't even say I wanted to be a dancer.

[Ego Wodom]

I'm like, yeah. Because I can't even imagine. I did ballet for 10 years as from, like, 7 to 17, but it was, like a hobby. I don't. And I didn't want to be a dancer, but I don't know how my mother might have even taken it if I had said, I know I want to do ballet, and I want to go to Juilliard. Like, I don't know how she would have wrapped her head around that. Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

There's no comp.

[Ego Wodom]

Like, there's no.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

There's no comp for them to be like, my first thing is, like, anything in entertainment industry. My dad's like, they do drugs there, right?

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So I went straight to. Not like, what do you. Like, yeah, it's like, they do drugs.

[Ego Wodom]

There's drugs there.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like, don't be, don't be around that. And I was just like, okay, fair.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah, there are drugs, but, you know, they're drugs here.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know, you get into finance, like, everything.

[Ego Wodom]

Wolf of Wall Street.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, come on. And they haven't seen that.

[Ego Wodom]

They hadn't seen that, but they.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I had to approach it in a very different manner. Like, I started going. I went to. Back to San Francisco State to go to school.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I couldn't process. I'm just not academia like that, that whole. I just wasn't built for that. And there's a, there's a reason for that. Because when I first moved to America, I, I struggled with learning English because I spoke Spanish in my first language. Chinese was my second language. And then English, My parents just kind of said, hey, you. You'll figure it out. And I was young. Yeah, I get it. But at the same time, at like, five years old, you're like, what, what, what are these people saying?

[Ego Wodom]

Right?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It sounded like.

[Ego Wodom]

And I like to hear that about us, by the way, because in our minds, we're always like, you have an accent. They have an accent. They have an accent. I'm like, or we might have an accent. And to everyone who speaks a different language, we sound like, what does it sound like?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Because we can, we can, we can, we can do things how other languages sound like, but never. And that was what it felt to me. And it was just. And my parents couldn't help me. Like, my sisters were also figuring. I have two older sisters, and they're figuring their stuff out. And they helped as much as they could. But.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know, so schooling was not something that I thought, like, hey, I want to go to this college and pursue this. It was just like, survive, right? Every day, survival. And so when it got to a point, I was like, I, I, it was a big step for me. I was like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go to this school and try and pursue this. And somehow dance kept pulling me back.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And so when, when I found out there was nothing in me for San Francisco, Right. Moving down to la, my friends were just like, well, we don't know what we want. Thank God.

[Ego Wodom]

My people.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You don't know any.

[Ego Wodom]

We have no people.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah. What are your ambitions? Just to survive.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But like, then when we moved down and I had to figure out like, okay. The first thing, my dad's like, well, financially. What. What. How are you going to survive? Which is a very important thing.

[Ego Wodom]

Fair question. He's like, it wasn't kind of like, don't ask me for money. Exactly.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But maybe. But if you do, we'll help. But like, let's not go down that.

[Ego Wodom]

Right. Okay. Can I ask you a very vulnerable question? Did you grow up rich?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

No.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. No, honestly.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Honestly.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Because you know that thing where rich people are like, I really didn't grow up with. We didn't have that much. And I'm like, compared to your billionaire.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, we. We were like lower middle class. It wasn't like, we weren't poor or anything, but. But my dad came from poverty.

[Ego Wodom]

Sure.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And in Costa Rica, he. He had a hardware store business that, you know, it started from literally nothing.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

To. To now he. He has two that are. That are still in Costa Rica. He still has them.

[Ego Wodom]

Oh, really? In Costa Rica?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

In Costa Rica, yeah. So he's just kind of in that mentality of like, not much of a. Like, like investments, but just like, just work.

[Ego Wodom]

Sure.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Just keep it going.

[Ego Wodom]

But. Okay. Can I ask you then in terms of your dad and that mentality and work. Work and just keep it going. Does he have like a retirement plan? Does he like. No.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

No.

[Ego Wodom]

It's interesting. I mean, I don't know if it's interesting, but similar with. I feel like my mom and all my friends who are first gen or most of my friends who are first gen. When we talk about retirement funds with parents and they're like, what? We just. We work.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You work till you die.

[Ego Wodom]

You work until you die. Which kind of sucks to think because now we're growing here and kind of like, oh, wait, no. Susan's dad retired when he was 51, and he's just like now traveling the world and doing whatever other interesting things he wants to do. And so I'm like, okay, so no retirement, but do you think your dad enjoys working? Would you say? Enjoys it?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That's all he knows.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's weird. It's. It's. It's, you know, it's a beautiful thing, but also it's makes. It breaks my heart in ways because it's like he was doing it because obviously to serve, to survive. You know, I always. Survive is such a big word because that's. That's what he. That's all he knew. And then when he Got to enjoy a little bit, like had family, it was more about, well, I gotta provide for that. Right. And then when I think with a lot of parents deal with like, am I needed now? Yeah, it's like the need like, yeah, especially fathers, I feel.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

If you're not needed, then as a, as a man, like, you feel like, well, what is my purpose now?

[Ego Wodom]

Okay, can I ask, like, with your awareness of that and recognizing that fathers and being like, oh, if I, if I'm not needed, I kind of am floundering and I don't understand my purpose with that awareness. Do you think it helps you in your, in your familial relations, but you're now nuclear family to go that. Do you think that like, okay, that's some ego I should look out for. Where it's like, do you feel the need to be needed?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I. Yeah, I think I do. I didn't think I did. Because you just think like, whoa, what does that mean?

[Ego Wodom]

Right?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like the. To feel needed from friends, from, you know, significant other, from your, your kids, even honestly, your parents. As, as, as some, some would like, ire at that like, idea of like, my parents need this. But I think when, when it doesn't become like, I don't want to use the word toxic, but like, I don't know what the word is. Some words are just some words that.

[Ego Wodom]

You'Re just like, you're like, I don't really feel like you can't say anything. Yeah. Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But like when, if you get a text or you get a call and say, hey, I need you.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like, right. You feel like, oh, yeah, what do you, what do you need? And it's like an important thing or what, what. And a lot of people don't experience that anymore.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

No one needs anyone anymore. And I just think that has become a big issue on, on, on trying to figure out like what one. That's community. Because community. There's. There's a baker. Used to be a baker.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You need the baker. You need like someone to take care of the, the kids and some like you need people to do so when you're not needed for a purpose, it becomes a really tricky issue to kind of navigate.

[Ego Wodom]

Right. It's interesting though, like, I feel having a sense of purpose, I think is like paramount to just feeling fulfilled once you have your basic needs met. Having that sense of purpose and feeling like this is what I contribute is really important. And I do think we're moving to a place. I mean, society looks very different from now. Like, this is the town's baker. And this person knows how to take care of our cars. And so it is interesting to see how that has affected people. I mean, dads, anybody, frankly, if you don't have that sense of purpose and that sense of feeling needed, but then you wonder, like, how much of that can you give to yourself? And know, this is what I contribute. Like, maybe I don't know, because I've never been a dad, and that's why this podcast is so interesting to me. But I'm like, I will be one day. I am committed to being the best damn father I never had. I wonder if there is anything to a dad going, I'm not needed anymore in the same way by my children, nor my spouse. Like, yeah, my family's okay. My children are okay. They're stable. They have their own families that they're providing for, and they're doing fine. If there's a sense of, like, exhale and peace and, like, now I can rest. Or if working feels restful to you, I can do this, do this, and it's fun to me, or I'm gonna work for enjoyment. You're like, huh, Interesting. What the hell are you talking.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

My dad. It's funny because my dad, he says this often, every time, like, trying to help him, he's like, I don't. I don't need, like, anything from, like, I'm. You guys are succeeding. And that. All the satisfaction I need. He's like, I don't need it. And it just. It. For a while, I didn't know how to process that. It's just like, well, you should want something, right? Like, I don't want anything. He's like, I'm. I'm good. I'll take care of my stuff. And, like, you guys are good. Yeah. I don't want to burden your. Your family that you have now.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's interesting because you see someone, like, for instance, someone, man or woman, is able to do a lot of things themselves, like fix cars, everything.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And they're incapable of doing this thing, and they don't need anyone.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

To do these, to live a life.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But that's kind of lonely.

[Ego Wodom]

Mm.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Because it's a lot to place on one person. Right.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And. And I know that a lot of, like, even when you're talking about single parenting, like, a lot of them have to do that.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And they have to find that, but they can't be. I'm sure. And I want to hear more about your mom. Like, it has to be exhausting.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. I Think that if I can say she didn't give me permission, but I'm like. And I'm no therapist, but I'm like, I think this is what burnout looks like. I mean, she was like a superhero. She went to medical school after having the four of us while single, like, and with the help of her siblings. We lived in Jersey for a year or two when I was growing up and lived with my aunt and uncle and my cousins. And we all grew up like one big family of siblings. But she did that. And all I ever saw her do was go, go, go, go, go and manage all of it. But I'm like, oh, that's how you exhaust yourself. Granted, I'm so grateful for the life she provided for us, and I'm so grateful for the example she provided for us. But, yeah, I don't. I don't know that that's how it's supposed to be. I really, sincerely, I can't imagine that that's how it's supposed to be. Cause they go, oh, man, the age I am now, I'm like, you had four kids, and you were on a journey in med school. And I'm like, I'm floundering around like, what kind of matcha do you. I'm trying the matcha at this place in Dumbo and this place. And so I'm like, what a different life. But I do imagine again, I'm like, that has produced burnout. And it's like, you did it and you were able to. And I'm so deeply grateful. I. Single parents are superheroes, truly. I mean, this is. This is not comparable. I do not want parents to come at me, though some parents will agree with this. I think this is chaotic, what I'm about to say. I got a puppy last year because I used to think, like, oh, I could be a single parent if it comes down to it. And, like, maybe it's. We're in a different time. So, like, I'll freeze my eggs and, you know, I'll go to a sperm bank and have a child if that's what I so choose to do. And it'll. It'll be fine. And I'm sure it would be fine, but I got a puppy last year. Like a baby. A little baby guy. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's big.

[Ego Wodom]

It's big, honestly.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And train thing that you have to do.

[Ego Wodom]

It's a living thing, and I will not compare it to being a mother. And I'm not trying to. But even just that little, foray into taking care of this thing that needed your attention, or it'll destroy your home by yourself. I was like, oh, never mind. I would never want. I personally will not be opting to be a single parent if I can help it. I don't think it's necessarily a path a ton of people choose. People do choose it, and I think some people I know of women who have chose it and are happy. I just had that experience, and I thought, oh, my gosh, this is really exhausting. And I thought about my mom, and I thought about the kind of life she gave us, and I thought about how, you know this podcast, the conceit of it being that I was raised by a single mom and don't have a relationship with my dad. Truth be told, I don't know that I felt. And even now, as I reflect as an adult, I'm like, I don't know that I felt I was missing out on too much. I had tons of male figures in my life who were wonderful, and I just felt. I felt so loved and I felt so valued and precious. And so I think she did an incredible job. But, yeah, I think it's lonely. I imagine it's a lonely. You want to have that shared experience, you know, at least for me. And that's my guess is that that would be more ideal for many people. But then you have some people who are like, I don't want. I don't want that. And I prefer my independence. And so I'm like, go on.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Especially King Queeque.

[Ego Wodom]

I'm like, yeah, know. Whoever I know go off and, well, I.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Do you think we're in this world now, that we're more connected than ever, that we're. We're trying to share these insights, right. That we have. And. And. But also on the other side, we're saying this is the right way. And it's like, there's no right way.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That's what I'm learning as being a parent. There's like, no right way. It's like at that moment, what you're doing, as long as it's done with some sort of kindness, right? Or the right intention, I guess the right word is. Is gonna be the. The way. And then if you say that to someone else and be like, what? Or they try it and they fail miserably and be like, that's terrible advice. One's like, but it worked for me.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Might not work for you.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know, and you kind of have to have this, like, I think we're missing that Gut instinct of things. Like, because the gut instinct is. Is for you, not for anyone else.

[Ego Wodom]

Right?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

More like.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

How. How does this feel right now? Let me go with that.

[Ego Wodom]

You mentioned that your dad asked you. I just have to get back to like, your dad asked you, how are you going to support yourself, pay for your life, pay your bills while you're pursuing dancing. What was that conversation like with him?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It was. I was, you know, I. I grew up when my parents put me to work at like 10, you know.

[Ego Wodom]

What kind of work?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, like, just peeling because they own a Chinese restaurant over in specific Grover beach, but like San Luis Obispo area. And I would just peel, like egg rolls and peel the celery wash, like, just like. And then it kind of build off that I became a waiter, not a cook, but like the prep work. Did all the prep work. Okay. So, you know, they paid me, so it wasn't like crazy child labor, right? But, you know, and they did it for the purpose of just like, get it. This is gonna help you. And then there was a moment when they had to figure stuff out and they're like, help pay the bills. Not from Mike, but just like, learn.

[Ego Wodom]

How to have that experience.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Learn how to balance checkbook.

[Ego Wodom]

Right?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Know how to write it, go to the mailbox. You know, do all that things they.

[Ego Wodom]

Weren'T teaching us in school, by the way. Where I go, I don't need long division, really. I don't. I don't need Pythagorean theorem right now. But though I do, I know it. A squared plus B squared equals C squared. Yeah, but it's whatever, it's going to get you far. It's going to really pay. On sns, on the podcast.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I was going to talk about that.

[Ego Wodom]

Exactly. She knows Pythagorean theorem. Okay, but. Okay, yes.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And then so I. Knowing that I had to come up with a plan, like, okay, this is if, you know, I looked at kind of the rates for tours and dance tours and music videos, it wasn't paying much. But you figure that out, you factor it in, you're like, oh, if I book one of these or do one of these, this is how. How much I would make if I went for three months.

[Ego Wodom]

So I would like, I would.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I would write it all out and I would explain that to them. It's like, okay, well, there is money. I don't understand how this all works. But they're like, okay. And I was like, let me try for a year, right? And I will go back to school if it If I fail, right? And, and, and they're like, okay, but like, every three months, be like, are you going back to school?

[Ego Wodom]

I'm curious, do they still. Because I have friends who are on television shows. I'm screaming, I'm sorry. But I have friends who are on television shows, very successful shows. And they' Every once in a while, my, my mom or my dad would be like, you should go back to school still. And it's like, I think I'm doing okay. People know my name. I'm working on paying the bills two times over.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I'm in their world, right? In their world. It's still. It's still a different world for them. Right? And. And I, I've. I've told this story before, but the one moment when I felt that they got it was actually two moments was one I, When I made it into the Chinese newspaper.

[Ego Wodom]

Oh, wow. Of course.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Local Chinese newspaper. They read it and they're just like, this is. You made it.

[Ego Wodom]

You did it, son. You made it.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I was like, maybe 300. But okay.

[Ego Wodom]

But they get to brag about you.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, they get to brag about. But in their own language and what they understand. And their friends can kind of like.

[Ego Wodom]

They have the context for that.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah. Family. They could send in the family.

[Ego Wodom]

Right. So that's our son.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Your son's a doctor.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. Look at our Sonara.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And when I, when I, when I worked on. In New Zealand, I shot a movie with Michelle Yeoh and Donnie Yen, and there was people that, that we grew up watching. So that was a connection. That was really. And so this came like 10 years.

[Ego Wodom]

You're like, no, but I've been okay and making money and like, that's when the. Go back to school maybe stuff, right?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so funny even now, like, playing a doctor on Grey's Anatomy and, and the last name is Quan, and that's my mom's maiden name. So she's like, okay, you're fine, you're fine.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah, you're doing well. Now there's like. You're a doctor. Yeah, we love to see it. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I. I wonder, are your siblings also in the arts or. No. No. Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

No, my mom. My. My mom, my sister, she does assistant, executive assistant work and then is a. Or nurse.

[Ego Wodom]

My mother.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Assistant or nurse.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. And they're proud of her. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they're proud of. The thing about it is, as I'm first gen too. I really. And I've told this story as well. About my. I studied biology. I was pre med because it's kind of just what my mom knew. And it's kind of all I knew because by virtue of being raised by her, and I grew up in Baltimore. And so let me say that again. I grew up in Baltimore because we were gonna be mad about how I said Baltimore. Baltimore. Every time I say Baltimore.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Baltimore.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. People go, I'll say Baltimore sometimes. Okay. And people go, wait a minute. Who aren't even from there. They go, isn't it Baltimore? And I go, no, we don't say Baltimore. It's Baltimore.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

They think you run around saying Baltimore, Baltimore, Baltimore.

[Ego Wodom]

It's not that it's Baltimore, but I'll. Sometimes. I haven't lived there in so long, I'll say Baltimore. Anyway, I studied biology, pre med. I came out to LA to do that. And I know a lot of people are like, man, that's a lot of familial pressure for them to want you to do something else. But as a first gen person, I understand it came from a place of like, I just want you to be stable. And what I know is stable is like, people are always gonna need doctors. That is a profession, I don't think. Yes, right. I'm like, it's not going anywhere. And so I totally got that. I mean, once you explain that to your. Your, your dad, what it would look like for you to have the salary of a dancer or have had the experience, she said, what? Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

He goes, okay, okay. Try the movie for a month.

[Ego Wodom]

You got your 12 months, right? What was in that 12 months? What happened?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I booked. I booked a tour with this pop star, young pop star named Casey, that took us. So this is a week in of me moving.

[Ego Wodom]

Oh, wow.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Okay. And I was taking a dance class and these choreographers, Joan Jamal Mall, they did like Usher, and they're like huge choreographers. They came up to me and saw me in dance class. They're like, hey, we need another dancer. Blah, blah, blah. Like what you were doing. And mind you, I was auditioning before. Like, I was driving down, back and forth to audition and never really booked anything. So it was like, yeah, I'm in a dance class and I get ready to get something. But it took us. It opened up for O Town.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Making the band.

[Ego Wodom]

I remember them.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And. And we toured Europe, and it was just. First time I was in Europe. Got paid $700 a week.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

For which, you know, it's for doing. For dancing. Fine.

[Ego Wodom]

Did you have rent back here in the States?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So I. I live with my. Yeah, live. I live with all my friends.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay, great.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Dancer House rent was, like, 300 bucks.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay, great.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like, literally, like, you turn over and you're like, hey, what's up, man? Hey, what's up, dude? Yeah. So luckily that was okay.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So it was, like, low expenses and, you know, income. So it all worked out.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay, so. And that's. You're saying that happened, like, one week into, like, your one year. Wow.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ego Wodom]

Incredible. So you felt good, right?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Sure, I felt good. And then I didn't work for, like, seven months.

[Ego Wodom]

And that's how it goes.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So that's how it goes. You get there and you get that high. You're just like, yeah, I'm on tour. Everyone knows me. There's like, no one knows me.

[Ego Wodom]

And that's the drugs your dad's talking. You're chasing. He's like, drugs?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ego Wodom]

Money's gonna be spent on drugs. What kind of advice? While you were. So since your dad didn't have any context for what it is you were pursuing, and you were sort of trying to paint that picture for him, was there any advice he gave you in your pursuit that was helpful to you?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I think the biggest part is don't. Don't owe anyone money and help people if you can. Yeah, that's like. That was the thing that always stuck out with me. It's just like, don't owe anyone money.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And then I was like, okay, okay, got it.

[Ego Wodom]

I want to. So you were paying your rent every month, your 300 doll?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, those things. I was also teaching a lot of my, you know, my friends taught me so much, like, how. How to interact with the world.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But then I also was helpful in the sense, like, well, this is how you bounce your checkbook. This is what you do to cook.

[Ego Wodom]

Because you knew. Because your dad taught you that.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah. They both, like. They both taught me these kind of life skills that just allowed me to at least, like, survive without. Like, I can. I don't have to eat out. Like, I can just figure out how to cook something.

[Ego Wodom]

It wasn't great, but it was my big problem. I love to eat out. Even though my mom did try to tell me, grandpa, there's food in the house. It's better to make your own food. It's better to make your own food. And now I'm like, totally, ma'am. But I'm like, but it's really good to go to a restaurant.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Can I make sugar fish?

[Ego Wodom]

Yes, exactly. I can't make sugar fish at home. So Your dad, how would you describe him? You mentioned your mom obviously, was also teaching you these life skills. Moms are superheroes. I just want to say I think moms are absolute superheroes. What they do, the whole idea of birth, it's all crazy to me. And so. But how would you describe your dad? And then I want to hear how you would describe your mom if you, like three words. You know that question where they say, how would your friends describe you in three words? I'm like, how would you describe your dad in three words?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I would say my dad is supportive. He's. Well, this is hard to do.

[Ego Wodom]

I know. No one ever asks us to do that about our parents. I've never been. Yeah, no one ever does. But I'm like, people ask, you might go on a job interview and someone says, like, how would you. How would your friends describe you in three words? Or how would you describe yourself in three words? I mean, I don't know what I would say right now if you asked me to describe my mom in three words.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Well, let's try it.

[Ego Wodom]

Let's try it together. Okay. Okay, start. I have a mom. So let's start with moms. And then we'll go to your dad, because I don't have a dad. Dad. And then I could try to describe you in three words just based on the little bit of time we've spent together. Okay, I'm gonna think about this. Is there thinking music we can play? Is that corny? Okay, see, you did something a little cooler. He's a dancer. He's bopping. And I was like. I was like, Jeopardy. Exactly. I'm like the nerd. And also notoriously bad at Jeopardy. Over here. And you turn on a hip hop. Maybe I can freestyle. Okay. Okay. I would say my mom is reserved, driven, and highly sensitive. Even though she don't know it, probably that she's sensitive. Very sensitive.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That's a good one.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. Yeah, that.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

The sensitive part is interesting because we don't think that sometimes our parents can be sensitive because you might. It's hard to show it because then you're showing as weakness. Yeah, but it's not a bad thing, I think.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah, it's not. But I also, again, with other friends who have parents who are not from this country, I don't think that's a thing that our parents are necessarily eager to show. And I don't even know that it's unique to parents who are immigrants. Like, I don't necessarily think parents want to show their children weakness. Like, I don't think that they want to. And so I think there's. You want to. I'm not a parent, but I imagine part of making your kids feel safe and secure and protected is making them feel like you've got it under control.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah. I'm learning that. I think it's more like you don't know what to do with weakness, because I think there's something to do with weakness. It's just to show that, like, what you can work on or. Or. Or what that weakness is. And does it pertain to how, like, does that actually make a difference?

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Oh, yeah. I don't know how to do that.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Cool. Yeah, let's learn.

[Ego Wodom]

Right, right, right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And I think we've taken that weakness as a failure when, like, also how we look at failure, it's like, we talk about a lot. Like, you need to fail.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You have to. Everyone has a weakness.

[Ego Wodom]

Everyone. Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like, it's crazy. If you don't have a weakness, you do. And. And as strong as you think you are or everyone says you are, you have weaknesses.

[Ego Wodom]

Well, they say, like, I listened to a lot of podcasts, and I feel like I heard on one particular podcast there was some segment about, like, you know, it's important for your kids to see you, even for their mental health, to see you upset or feel like you have failed, and to see you then recover from that, whatever has made you upset and see you recover from whatever you failed at. It's important for them to see all of that as opposed. You're not meant to make your kids think you are perfect, that you're not supposed to. In fact, it's perhaps a big disservice to them to do that. And it's important for them to see your humanity so that they know what to do when they fail or they feel like they have a weakness. They can look and go, oh, but I, you know, or something is very upsetting to them. Like, I saw mommy or Daddy or, you know, this is what they did. Yeah. And I saw them upset, and they thought they did this to get over it. And then they do get. We know they got over it. And so I can get over. And I don't know. Growing up for me, and I don't think it's a reflection of just my mom. I do really just think we live in a very different time than the time when I was growing up and I was young. But I don't know that any of my friends in childhood would have been like, oh, yes, I got to see my. I Saw my dad or mom really upset and they shared that with me or they didn't shield that from me. But I also saw them put themselves back together. I was just watching a docu series where someone was like, my parents wanted to get divorced. Know the whole time this is just an aside hearing the background of it was a dancer. But like, my parents kept it together for me and I didn't even know what was going on. And like, they were just waiting for me to be. To graduate high school. And then they got divorced and they didn't deep dive into, like, how, how that impacted her, but I was sort of like, is that good that the whole time she thinks experience A is. Yeah, they're in perfect harmony. Yeah. But it was like, no, it's, it's. I thought it was harmony. And then like, I turned 18 and they're like, okay, yeah, and we're getting divorced. I don't know as I'm like, I don't know if that's good or bad, but I do want you to describe your dad in three words before we. You're not off the hook, unfortunately. And I may never ask anyone else to do this. So this could be just a Harry Shum exclusive.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, he's strong. I think honest is a big thing for someone like my dad telling, you know, he would always just don't, don't trick anyone. Don't try and cheat your way through anything. So those are the things that stuck with me. And I think for practical. Yeah, yeah.

[Ego Wodom]

Strong, honest, practical.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, yeah. And I think those are those baseline things that, you know, we want to think, like, extraordinary. Because I think my dad is extraordinary in the sense that he. How. What he. I mean, what he. It's crazy when you think of any immigrant, but, like, doing it twice is just crazy.

[Ego Wodom]

I know.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I know the whole language. Oh, yeah. He actually almost did it the fourth time he went to Montreal.

[Ego Wodom]

Really?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

He went to Costa Rica. Went to Montreal. He was just like, it's too cold.

[Ego Wodom]

Yes.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And you know, he started learning French up there and he was just like, okay, it's too cold. And then we went back and to Costa Rica and then moving up here. So like just the level of also. Also going. He, he apparently during that time in, in China, he was on the cusp of things were happening and his, his grandpa was well off and then just dropped to like, nothing. So, you know, it was, it was almost like as a kid, you don't understand that. Like, you're like, oh, one day you're in a house and Next day you're in a shack sleeping on a. Like, some hay.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know, so to see that, I think the practical stuff is like one of those things that I think we've lost of what are the foundation? Because we're thinking, so what do you want in life is just like, let's just get the practical stuff first.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

The foundation. And then you can.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Then you can start picking things that make you happy, I guess.

[Ego Wodom]

Right. That's a fascinating experience of his. I have one friend who was like. I grew up so wealthy, and then my, like, sophomore year of high school, my dad, who was their stepdad, she was like, squandered it all. And then it was like, we're pretty poor. We're pretty poor now. And I'm like, so remarkably fascinated by that experience and how that informs someone's worldview for better or for worse. And when you say your dad is strong, I'm assuming you mean emotionally strong.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, emotionally, mentally. But there's also some the things that aren't helpful and kind of not being able. Because the one thing I didn't have my dad is like, talking. Emotional.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Anything emotional. It was always to my mom.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Which is standard. And a lot of people. But I mean, I'm learning how to. Because luckily, growing up with two sisters, mainly households of women compared to just me and my dad.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know, it was. I always. The femininity and masculinity energy was strong on both ends.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So I was able to. To also. I was a very sensitive kid myself.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And I think it's not. Not understanding what the world was and no one really fully explaining it to me.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Other than the things that I told, like, my dad taught me.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But the other stuff I had, like, Uncle Phil was everyone's dad. It was everyone's dad. You know, and then like, you know, and then my. Our Jewish drama teacher, he was like, kind of. So I learned different philosophies, ways of parenting, or at least father figures in different places.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. I think that's a key thing that even when I speak about my experience, I feel oftentimes I'm like. If I say I was raised by a single mom and really my dad wasn't part of my life, the void I feel, people immediately assume I felt. But I really believe that your dad can be a father figure. But so can other people. Like, so can other people. Which is why I've called you here to be my dad. Yeah. It's looking really good. Am I winning you over?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yes.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Thank God. I'm like. But I really believe that when you start to really understand your parents as humans, and we were saying this before we hit record today, like, they just have a set of tools. And it's just your parents are merely people who have had children and are generally, Generally speaking, trying their best. You can be informed by so many different people in your life, and so many people can sort of step into that parental or mentor position in your life. Teachers. I have teachers from high school that I cared not even so much what they thought it was. I remember when I went to college, I was like, I want to make Mr. Bressler and Mr. Spivey proud and Mr. Wade. I wanted to make them proud, and they have their own families and their own kids, but they left such an impression on me that that's what I wanted. Did you feel like at any time, did you, like, actually try to take emotion to your dad? And was that. How did you learn that? It's like, oh, he's maybe not the one to, like, try to take this. My sensitivities to.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah, it was later in life that happened, I think growing up, it was, you know, it is what he was taught. Like, don't cry.

[Ego Wodom]

Sure.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like, why are you crying so much? And, you know, I've learned when you say that to someone, they. They can't. If they can't process it, and no one's even helping them to understand what that.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Those emotions are. You know, it's just so there's no plug because I'm not in it at all. Like, inside out. And like, the movie is just. That helps a kid process. Like, oh, that's an emotion.

[Ego Wodom]

Just, Just.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Just with simplicity, whether it's right or wrong. It's like, that is identifying as, like, oh, anxiety. Or like, you know, happiness, joy, anger. Like, those are those things that you do have to work with.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Because, you know, when. When it's suppressed and say, don't. Don't feel this way, then you're like, well, something in the mechanics inside of me is wrong.

[Ego Wodom]

Wrong.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Engineering is messed up.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

When it's. It's really not. It's like it's being expressed a certain way. And, you know, I think culturally, it. It wasn't something that they were. I mean, they don't teach you in school. So if your parents didn't give it to you and you're not, and all you're doing is working, you're surrounded by people who think about only working. There's no. There's emotion behind It. But there's only one. It's just kind of like, which can turn into something really bad. Greed, you know, but there's. There's. There's. That's the set of tools, I think, when going back to, like, not being able to. If you don't have. If you came from something or came from a lot of money and didn't have anybody, if you had a set of tools that'll get you back up there if you need to. That's the most important part. Not the money, but it's really like the tools to get there.

[Ego Wodom]

Right. I mean, it's so interesting. We just really. I say it and I say it all the time. And I'm like, I know it's not the most profound thing. In fact, it's pretty rudimentary that I'm like, we just are growing up in such a different context even to say, you're going to therapy. And this stigma has largely, at least in the circles that I'm a part of, been lifted. And to be able to name your emotion and be able to be vulnerable and share your emotions with one another, whereas vulnerability, something like crying, which is quite vulnerable. I grew up thinking that was weak, too. I grew up thinking, like, you don't cry. I remember saying that. I was like, you know, I don't cry. And I remember, like, sensitive. No, I'm not sensitive. I'm so sensitive. But it's like, it's so important to be able to name your emotions. That's so empowering. And I was listening to someone recently say that, like, we have equated mental health to mean perfectly stable and sort of Zen in a way, where it's like, nothing can shake you, but. And we've conflated it to mean that. But that's not what it means, according to the psychologist. It was like, it means you have an appropriate response to a stimulus. It's like if you are really excited about an audition for. To be. To tour with some artist, and you're really close and you're so excited and you love this artist and your friends are getting to do it, and you don't get it, and you're not upset when you don't get it. This psychologist was like, that's mentally unhealthy. That would be strange. But we didn't. I say we. Like, we grew up together, but I'm like, I didn't grow up with that.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I feel we grew up.

[Ego Wodom]

I do.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I'm really enjoying this conversation.

[Ego Wodom]

Me too. And I'm like, you're My. Yes, I know. Well, first you have to be my dad.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you can be a dad and friend.

[Ego Wodom]

Are you a strict parent, though, would you say, or just for sure, sugar. Okay. Okay. That's fair.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Honestly, it's. You know, my wife Shelby is an incredible mom.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And makes. Makes it all just very easy.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay, great.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

In a sense, like, she does. She's gonna be able to do the things that I'm not good at, you know, And. And I try and be also vulnerable, but also, at the same time, I look at, like, what does she do? Well, yeah. And I'm gonna work on the stuff that I can. I do well.

[Ego Wodom]

How can I compliment, you know?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know, and just, like, work together as opposed to, like, we're both really good at this thing, and let's get good at this thing, which I think is important, too, just to know what it feels like. It's kind of like walking in someone else's shoes for a little bit. Just kind of. Okay.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah, I get this. Yes, exactly. Well, even when you say, I was gonna ask you, I was like, gonna. I go, do you and your wife really feel like teammates while raising your daughter? Or they're like. I mean, and that's what you look at a basketball team. I'm just. I'm just brand new into sports. I'm like, oh, yes, that's the shooter and that' who's going to point guard. And thank God you said point guard. Because I was gonna be like, I cannot name another role again. I'm a baby. Baby sports person. But it's. When you. When you're describing that dynamic and going, she's really good at this. I don't have to, like, go out of my way and strain to become good at this thing. Shelby's good at this thing, and I'm really good at this thing over here that chances are Shelby's also really good. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. It sounds like. Um. But, like, it's. It's interesting to hear. Like, yeah, I'm taking the teammate approach. And as a child who grew up, again, with a single parent, the. One of my few curiosities, really, is that I go. Cause again, I feel like I was raised wonderfully. I feel really grateful. I didn't feel some grand void. But when I. In these conversations, I go, ah, yes, the balance of parenting, where you go, my. My mom is this way. But then my dad showed me this. This thing. I'm curious, like, do you foresee, like, a world in which your daughter goes to Shelby and says, like, you see it in the sitcoms when we were growing up. It's like, I asked mom if I can go to the dance, and she said, no, and I'm gonna go to dad and be like, can I go to the dance?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Oh, she definitely said, okay.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

She does that. You know, I going. I. Because my wife choose raised single. Single mom, too. Like, yeah. So I kind of got a glimpse of that. And I also don't doubt and you know, that she could do it by herself.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's just gonna be harder, right?

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And I kind of look at life like, okay, how can you just make things less harder on yourself and for other people that you love?

[Ego Wodom]

Yes. Yes.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That's really what it. What it comes down to. So, you know, it's possible. And I think we always have this conversation, especially in the Internet, about, like, well, what's the right way? Who can. Who can do it better? What's. You know, it worked for some people, but it won't work for this person. It's just kind of like, well, some people just out of survival will just assume the other position and they're just gonna have to do more work. It's kind of like anything you do, like, whatever profession you do.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

If you have to eat someone else's like, like, like, you know, responsibilities.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's just a lot more work.

[Ego Wodom]

Yes. Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Compared to you've. Any position you've been in, if. If it's given, like, oh, go. This person can do xxxx.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So it allows me to focus and enjoy this process. Right, right. And enjoy the process of parenting. So I don't know. And. But then you develop thick skin over time where it becomes like, I don't know if you've had this with, you know, acting or even, even in comedy, like, when you reach a certain level, when it becomes, like, normal to you and someone just starting off is like, this is so hard. And you're like, this is we talking.

[Ego Wodom]

About, oh, we've been doing this recently. If it's a challenge to do comedy right now. And I was like, I'm gonna say no. I'm gonna say no. All I have is my experience, and you are asking me if it's challenging to me, but yes, to somebody else, it would be challenging. But I have built the resilience at this point by virtue of my experience to say, to answer this question, it's a no for me dog. And so I'm like, no, it's not. But when you speak to, like, even your wife's upbringing or the way my mother raised me, you will just, you will assume the position that whatever is required of you, like, you're going to step up. And so I just feel like your tolerance for certain things, it just looks different.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It looks different.

[Ego Wodom]

It just looks different. And maybe this is not the ideal situation, but now your tolerance is different. And what you're able to manage and what you're able to juggle, it's just different.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But I could never give an advice to someone, a single mom that's just like. My advice is going to be like, well, okay, yeah, yeah. Unless you take it by bits and bits and pieces, which I think that's life. Right. You take bits and bits and pieces. What works for you. Great.

[Ego Wodom]

Doesn't out the door, toss it out.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ego Wodom]

Do you, I mean, do you want your daughter? Because you mentioned like again, meeting her with a curiosity, even if it's about something that you're like, a little uncomfortable for me. But I never want to leave her hanging in her vulnerability, which I again, I'm just like, if I hear that and I go, that's beautiful and that's powerful. And I think that that's really important. Do you want her to be able to talk to you about anything or in your dream scenario, is she like going to mom for certain things and not coming to you?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I think either, or whatever. Whatever. It's. I can't predict what is going to happen, what she's going to have outside of the norm and the basics that you've gone through. And at the end of the day, she's going to have better advice and certain places and like the things that my dad taught me really well, like the practical, like, information that, that I think we, we. It's crazy. You look at Internet and you're like, when there's huge videos that are talking about specifically finances or whatever.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And like that's the most basic thing.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And again, people weren't taught that. So they need that information.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And so you accumulate over time, you accumulate a lot of experience on how you see the world, which might not be the same when they grow up.

[Ego Wodom]

I know.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I keep talking about telling us, like, you gotta do this. Like, it doesn't work that way.

[Ego Wodom]

I know. And it's even hearing myself sometimes I'll in conversation be like, I don't know about college. Even though I grew up thinking, like, you've got to go to college, you have to go to college. At least for me, it didn't feel like an option. And I'm like now I look at society, I look at what I do for work. I don't regret the path that I took. I, I don't. But I go, I don't know that that's totally necessary. I don't really. And it feels, I don't know if this is wrong or big or big college is going to cancel me. But like, I'm just like, I don't know that, that I don't know that we're living in a society. If it, if it wasn't totally necessary back then, it's, it's looking less and less necessary to me now.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

We're not looking at the ratio of like what's the cost and benefit, right? Yeah, we're not really looking at that in face value of, of I'm going to go and do this thing.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And, and also not just monetary, but also just out of passion.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like is that passion equate to that time and effort that you're going to put into this right along with, you know, monetarily? Is it going to like, you have to look at all these things and it won't work for everyone.

[Ego Wodom]

I would love to see 10 years from now, I hope to be alive to see 10 years from now, are we going to college? Are people going to college? Is that a thing? Are parents encouraging their kids to go to college? Are they going like, not the tell me what you want to do kid. Okay. Not the best use of your money and your time. Because I really, I remember when I graduated I just felt like I had to get to LA to pursue acting. I had to get out here because I just knew like, this is where the acting that I want to do happen happens. And I go, college will be by ticket because my family won't freak. I'll have their permission. It's also like, you know, some people at 18 are like, I don't need my family's permission, I needed their permission. And so I, I came out here but I'm like, oh yeah, what does. And I'm grateful for that path. But I look at people, I, once I graduated I'd meet people out here who same age as me and are like, yeah, I went to college back home or I didn't go at all. And here we are in the same acting class and they go, I have so I'm so stressed every night thinking about these student loans. I want to change my number. But again, it worked out. But I'm like, oh, I saw people and I'm like, we're starting for the thing that I want to do in the same place, only I have mounds and mounds of college student loan debt behind me. Do you think you'll encourage your daughter to go to college or how do you feel about her pursuing the arts again?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I don't know.

[Ego Wodom]

I love that, Harry. Yeah, it's.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I'm. And this was very new for me. I used to believe, like, this is the path, this is what you're gonna be doing.

[Ego Wodom]

How new are we talking?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I think probably like maybe five years.

[Ego Wodom]

Four.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Five years.

[Ego Wodom]

How old is your daughter?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Five. So kind of started around the.

[Ego Wodom]

As soon as you get a child.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Someone told me to work your shit out as much as you can before you have a kid. Meaning like Internet, like anything. Like childhood stuff that you dealt with that you haven't kind of faced and. Or at least just worked through and. Because it'll be passed down to your kid, like, even if you don't mean to, you don't want to, it just will because that's just the energy that's going to pass through. So it's like trying to figure out what this energy is. And we talked about, we're talking about luck, you know, not believing luck before we started.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And I whatever that definition because there's so many different variations, I guess. Because when people, when we think about luck, I think about it as just there's things that are happening in the world that you can't control. That's really what. And then. And if that desire that you have internally meets up with the outside world that you can't control, it could be luck or it could be just destiny or it could be whatever it is you want to call it. But I've kind of taken that philosophy. Like I'm trying to have the desires of just like, you know, making sure that I am fulfilled, she is fulfilled, my family's fulfilled, and the outside world hopefully will meet that.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah, yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That's really.

[Ego Wodom]

I think that's lovely. I think it's lovely. I tend to admire, and this is perhaps counterintuitive, but I tend to admire leaders who are like, I don't know, this is sort of what I think. But also I'm telling you that I don't know, this is where I'm at right now. Who does? Yeah, but I used to be like a leader, a parent. They have the answer. And I want you to tell me. And like I'm going to go, okay, great. And the older you get yourself and the more you explore the world yourself and your own curiosities, you're like, oh, I don't know. And they don't know, and no one knows. And I think it's such a.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

No one knows what they're doing. I'm sorry. I don't know what I'm doing sometimes.

[Ego Wodom]

I know. Sorry, guys. No one knows.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

No one knows. We don't know.

[Ego Wodom]

Everyone's throwing spaghetti at the wall. We're playing it by ear. But I'm like, I. I trust the people more who go, I don't know. I do. I tend to trust people that are like, I don't know. I don't know. And I go, oh, that's a leader. I think that. I think here's not so hot take. I go, anytime someone expresses that uncertainty, I go, that's a true sign of confidence to me. Because I'm like. I think that's so vulnerable to be like, I don't know. Okay, Harry, as my dad for today, I do have to ask. You're like, we're friends. No, you're my dad. I have to ask for a piece of advice that I feel like a father figure would give me. Cause I have my mom to ask this advice. I have my friends, but I don't have a father figure necessarily to ask or a dad to ask. So I'm gonna ask you for a piece of advice, if that's okay. I'm sitting dad down and saying, are you free? I would love to talk to you about something.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yes. Yes.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Thank you. So dating. Dating is hard, right? Right. What is a red flag? I should look for something really, like, sneaky. I'm your daughter, remember? Okay. You're vulnerable, little girl.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Oh, my God. What I dread.

[Ego Wodom]

I hate to make you think.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

This is a good practice, though.

[Ego Wodom]

This is a good practice. I'm your vulnerable little girl. I'm dating. Guys are taking me on dates. I'm seeing the sights. What is something that I should beware of, of when dating? A red flag. Dad helped me out.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Where are his eyes when he's talking to you?

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Okay. And they should be looking at my eyes, right?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yes, I would hope.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. This is new. Okay. All right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That's the. I think that's the first one.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's not some. The gospel, you know, it's not. It's not dogma like that. You think this is right? Because some people are nervous, you know, you might. You'll. You'll sense that it's like. It's not. But I think that is a big red flag that you're gonna see is like, well, why. Why Go any further right. In this conversation, you're not even interested in me. But at the same time, that's not the only thing. I. I think there's so many factors, so many red.

[Ego Wodom]

There's lots of red flags.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

There's a lot of red flags.

[Ego Wodom]

Oh, man. Truly.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

There's also a lot of green. What was it? Green flags, maybe.

[Ego Wodom]

I mean, I don't know if it's the traffic system is the flags from war. I give up. I want. I want peace. And I am always waving the white flag.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

What is the. Maybe orange.

[Ego Wodom]

Orange. Orange cones and the like. What's the. The vest. The vest.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

The vest. Orange. Orange. I guess orange is a good thing.

[Ego Wodom]

Like orange. Slowly, Slowly.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But you can come in. Yeah, eventually you can. Let's see if that red flag.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay, What's. Well, what's a. What's a big orange flag then?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I think what. What's important to you? I think we always think, like, all these signs because it's different for everyone. You say this flag.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And, you know, some people might be cool with it.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

That's their lifestyle.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I just think, like, what are your values and your morals and that? What is important to you as opposed to what? Your friends.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

For friends, I think it's important because they look at me like, what you don't see. Right. So obviously, I think it's. It's more so than just the guy or the girl, like, in front of you. It's looking at, okay, how are your friends? Are they going to be your support system? And saying and seeing those red flags help you and you got to listen to it.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

But also your desires of just, like, what do you love?

[Ego Wodom]

But, you know, the gut can be. The gut can be tricky. I have ibs, and so I do. I have ibs. Yeah. I have ibs, and so it can be hard to trust, but I do believe in trusting the gut. But, you know, there's a lot of trickery out here. You haven't been in the dating world for.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You're right, I haven't. Terrible at.

[Ego Wodom]

It's a nasty game out there. It's getting. It's getting bad. It's dangerous.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know what? I try and I try and watch a lot of, like, people talk about it.

[Ego Wodom]

Yes. And their cars on Instagram.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's crazy. It is crazy. But, you know, I also think, what kind of lifestyle do you want?

[Ego Wodom]

Okay. Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

It's like, is it. I don't know, do you want to go out all the time, which is fine, or do you want Are you more like, I want to chill?

[Ego Wodom]

Yes.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I'm more of a homebody.

[Ego Wodom]

Yes.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And those are going to bring two different things. Someone can offer you to be able to go out and travel a lot, which is wonderful. You should live that lifestyle.

[Ego Wodom]

Right. Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know, and then. But you should also know the red flags, like, how long is this going to last?

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Will it last a while?

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Or am I. I know what I want, and this is going to last this much, and I'm fine with it.

[Ego Wodom]

There are people who like to go out and, like, do you have friends who are still like, I'm in these streets.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ego Wodom]

And what do you think of them? Honestly? Go off king. I'm trying to trap you. I'm like, I just.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I. I don't know the answer to, like, what is the purpose of life? Like, to go down that. Like, because we live in a big city. We live in a city where there's a lot of things to do.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

A lot of things that might bring you joy.

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Which in turn will bring you sadness.

[Ego Wodom]

Right. Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And moments, you know, it's a valley that crash. So. But then. Then there's people who's just like, no, I like this.

[Ego Wodom]

Okay.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I'm into this. And you really believe, where am I? Who am I to say, like, you shouldn't.

[Ego Wodom]

And you really believe them when they're saying that you're like, I'm looking at my friend. And my friend, truly, sincerely seems to.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like me, ever asks, and maybe I haven't. It's like, are you lonely?

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. That's my curiosity.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I do. I do. I was like, are you lonely? And some people are like, no, I get to do whatever I want, whenever I want. And I was like, I see some joy in that. Because there's moments where I'm like, I just want to do whatever.

[Ego Wodom]

This grass is always greener, though. Right. So I'm sure you have those moments.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

There's moments where I'm just, oh, this is nice to be here with people and laughing in our pajamas.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You know, so I see that side and. And I understand the other side, like, because I think at the end of the day, it's things that have happened into in your life that didn't allow you to enjoy the full spectrum of what life has to offer.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Because it's scary.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

If something happened to you that you might not even realize that it happened. Happen to you, it can be a scary place to kind of venture into again.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

So I completely understand that. With breakups, I'VE had my heart broken, you know, plenty of times. And yeah, I get it. It. It is hard, horrible. Until you find that someone, you know, I'm very fortunate. Someone who just, like, just dropped in my lap and. And I didn't expect it to happen.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And became, you know, mother of my child and were happy.

[Ego Wodom]

Yes. And you have a book and like, I'm just in. I'm in awe. It sounds truly so, so lovely. And so are you also suggesting to me, dad, that it happens? Because people say it happens when you're least expecting it, when you're really not looking for. Are you a believer in that now?

[Harry Shum Jr.]

I am a believer. Once you've done the work on. On your. On yourself, as much. As much as you can. Whatever that means, you know, for you. Because I speak that just for myself. Like, even halfway into our. My relationship with Shelby, it was just like, well, why am I getting like, why is this bothering me? Why am I, like, triggered from. From that response?

[Ego Wodom]

Right.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

And I think those are. Those are things you have to figure out.

[Ego Wodom]

Yeah.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Like to the point where, like, if you cannot have anything when your reaction is the most powerful tool, I think, because if you're able to. To control your reactions or understand what that not allowing something that someone does to you to react in a way that they would want so you have full, complete control, I think that's one of the most powerful things you can have.

[Ego Wodom]

Right. And that's, I think, a reflection of a level of self awareness too. To be able to be like, okay, I know I wanna respond this way, but I'm gonna pause. I'm gonna pause. And that might be the reaction I might have had if I didn't have the wherewithal to pause. But I go, okay, how do I wan up right now? Right. Something like that. Dad, I'm trying my best.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

You're doing great.

[Ego Wodom]

I just needed to hear that. And you stepped right into the role. It's kind of crazy. Harry, it has been incredible talking to you. So wonderful. We're friends.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

We're friends.

[Ego Wodom]

You're also my dad, I hope. Your daughter. Dad, friend. Maybe that's the podcast name. No, we've got a podcast name. This has been. Thanks, Dad. I want to say again, Harry and his wife Shelby, who I would love to meet. Sounds fantastic. And maybe is my other mom now have a book coming out named Marty Dares to Dance. Guys, get Harry my dad friends book. Thank you so, so much for this.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Thank you, thank you. This has been wonderful.

[Ego Wodom]

Thank you. Think stat is a headgum podcast created and hosted by me, Ega Wodom. The show is produced and edited by Anita Flores and engineered by Anita Flores and Anya Kanovskaya with Executive producer Emma Foley. Katie Moose is our VP of Content at Headgum. Special thanks to Jason Matheny for our show Art and Ferris Manshi for our theme song. For more podcasts by headgum, visit headgum.com or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and maybe, just maybe, we'll read it on a future episode.

[C]

Hi, I'm Caleb Herron, host of the so True podcast, now on Headglobal Gum. Every week me and my guests get into it and we get down to what's really going on. I ask them what's so true to them, how they got to where they are in life, a bunch of other questions, and we also may or may not test their general trivia knowledge. Whether it's one of my sworn enemies like Brittany Broski or Drew Wallow or my actual biological mother Kelly, my guests and I are just after the truth and if we find it, great. And if not, no worries. So subscribe to so True on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Pocket Casts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and watch video episodes on the so True with Caleb Heron YouTube channel. New episodes drop every Thursday.

[Harry Shum Jr.]

Love.