Chris Ramsay: Bob Lazar, Underwater UFOs & What He Really Believes

Summary

That UFO Podcast — Chris Ramsay: Bob Lazar, Underwater UFOs & What He Really Believes

Date: August 3, 2026
Host: Andy McGrillen
Guest: Chris Ramsay (Magician, Filmmaker, Host of Area 52)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Andy McGrillen is joined by magician, filmmaker, and popular UFO researcher Chris Ramsay. The conversation spans Chris’s personal journey from magic and puzzle-solving into the world of UFOs, his skepticism turned conviction around remote viewing, high-profile interviews with figures like Bob Lazar and Travis Walton, and an open, philosophical take on what “truth” in the UFO community might really mean. The episode is notable for its nuanced discussion of belief, skepticism, community dynamics, the urge for "disclosure," and Ramsay’s reflections on out-of-body experiences and the wildest UFO claims he suspects are real.

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1. Chris Ramsay’s Unlikely Trajectory into UFO Research

Timestamps: 03:17–08:00

• Early Fascination:
  Chris recounts being “indoctrinated” into UFOs as a child after watching Fire in the Sky and numerous documentaries, calling it a “natural progression” from his curiosity in magic and puzzles to the world of high-strangeness and UFOs.

  “I really see it as more of a natural progression of asking deeper and deeper questions about the nature of how things work…” (04:31, Ramsay).

• The Search for Fulfillment:
  Despite huge YouTube success in magic/puzzles, Chris admits to a “dark place” in life, leading him to seek new meaning and creative stimulation in his explorations of fringe topics.

  “Success and money doesn’t always translate into happiness...I found out that that was having a creative outlet that I could constantly be stimulated by. Novelty is something that very much stimulates me and keeps me going.” (05:50, Ramsay)

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2. Approach to Belief and the Community

Timestamps: 08:34–12:32

• Modular Beliefs:
  Chris distinguishes himself as highly fluid in his beliefs, not dogmatic but always open to the possibility of being wrong or surprised.

  “I’m not prepared to die on a cross, so to speak, for any conviction that I have about reality, let alone aliens… it’s very easy for me to have these conversations and just think, what if? What if what? This person—alright, let’s go with it.” (09:52, Ramsay)

• Community Dynamics:
  He discusses the challenge of a binary believe/don’t believe culture within UFO circles, embracing “whimsy” and the value of humor and openness.

  “There is whimsy to be had. There are enlightening things to come across even in the most silly of places.” (11:33, Ramsay)

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3. Navigating UFO Claims and Community Boundaries

Timestamps: 13:59–18:37

• Low Conviction, High Curiosity:
  Chris sets his only "high conviction" as: “There is something going on.” On “orb” videos or outlandish claims, he’s generally agnostic, preferring instead to consider them without debunking or dogmatically believing.

  “I'm not James Randi. I'm not here to debunk any of that. I'm simply here to present all the things and let's, you know, take it all into consideration…” (15:21, Ramsay)

• Fluidity as a Strength:
  Both host and guest agree that skepticism and openness—expecting to be let down but always ready to be surprised—are strengths in this topic.

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4. Chris’s “In” to the UFO World and Early Convictions

Timestamps: 18:37–25:15

• Remote Viewing Journey:
  Chris describes how a skeptical experiment with remote viewing (inspired by his memory champion friend) led him to profound personal experiences and direct contact with former Stargate participants (Ed Dames, Joe McMoneagle, Dr. Ed May). His conviction: “No, this is actually a thing. It works. Not reliable...but it works.” (21:56, Ramsay)

• Synchronous Beginnings:
  A chain of meaningful coincidences—including clock “11:11” sightings—led Chris into high-profile interviews (James Fox, Lou Elizondo, etc.) and a sense of being on the right path.

  “The entire trajectory for me felt incredibly synchronous...” (24:51, Ramsay)

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5. Where Does Chris Stand on the Phenomenon?

Timestamps: 25:24–29:40

• From "Aliens" to Absolute Uncertainty:
  Chris expresses increasing humility in the face of the phenomenon: “The deeper you get, the more you realize, I know nothing at all… I’m in a suspended state.” (26:56, Ramsay)
  • He’s less committed to the ET hypothesis ("aliens") as the be-all, end-all explanation.
  • Notes a tendency for aging researchers to “package things neatly” while he remains unwilling to “commit” except to honest speculation.

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6. The Lens of Magic, Misdirection, and Self-Deception

Timestamps: 29:22–31:44

• On the Nature of Deception:
  Rather than suspecting active conspiracy or manipulation, Chris suspects most “agendas” are self-imposed.

  “I think people fool themselves...maybe the agendas are self-imposed...for the most part even those people are fooled as well.” (30:11, Ramsay)

• Historical Caution:
  He cautions that real disinformation campaigns (Doty, Moore, 1980s) have occurred, but are less prevalent currently.

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7. Modern Disclosure Drama: Public Spats and “Proof”

Timestamps: 31:44–43:52

• Host Recap of Drama:
  Andy summarizes public rifts between well-known figures (Louis Elizondo, Ross Coulthart, “Gerb” a.k.a. Sam, etc.), accusations of dishonesty, and general public squabbling in the field.

• Chris’s Take:
  Chris: “It’s distracting for sure...If Sam or Lou doesn’t come forward with proof, then I'll assume nobody has it… Until one of them wants to come out and show something, I really...I could care less.” (36:46, Ramsay)

  Notable Moment:

  “If you were to want to, I don't know, populate another planet... you had to bounce around the universe at will… maybe you hide these von Neumann probes in the ocean... now we find out we're just in a petri dish, that we're in some type of a farm, and that we're very low on the totem pole... I think that might be very terrifying to a lot of people.” (60:07, Ramsay)

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8. What Kind of “Disclosure” Do People Really Want?

Timestamps: 43:52–52:36

• Seeking Permission to Ask the Next Question:
  Chris proposes the real yearning is for “permission to ask a new question,” suspecting official answers will never satisfy the drive for deeper existential certainty.

• Host Analogy:
  Andy compares persistent desire for authority approval to a “boss” whose praise one craves regardless of personal feelings—highlighting the emotional complexities in the community.

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9. Healthy Skepticism and Maintaining Balance

Timestamps: 52:36–54:01

• Value of Stepping Back:
  Both Andy and Chris stress the importance of life balance, suggesting engagement with UFO topics should be fun and not all-consuming; touch grass, play games, spend time with family.

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10. Listener Q&A — What’s the Wildest Claim Chris Believes Might Be True?

Timestamps: 54:01–57:30

• Underwater Mobile Construction Unit (UMCU):
  Chris singles out the “underwater mobile construction unit” (an alleged moving underwater base referenced in 4chan lore and elsewhere) as an outrageous claim with convincing elements, especially due to corroboration from “Gerb” (Sam), whose rigor in vetting sources is trusted by Chris.

  “I’m pretty high conviction on that. Where I started off pretty low, is like, oh, this is just some larp...but I do let [Gerb's] research raise my conviction level.” (54:05, Ramsay)

• Host Summarizes:
  Andy explains: “The idea is there’s an underwater base off the coast of the United States that the US government and contractors know about...when it’s approached, it disappears for days at a time and then comes back.” (56:09, Andy)

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11. The Most Convincing Witness and Bob Lazar’s Reaction

Timestamps: 68:55–77:24

• Most Convincing Witness:
  Chris’s top pick isn’t Bob Lazar or Travis Walton, but Mario Woods—former Air Force, with a 1977 abduction experience while on nuclear base duty, corroborated by polygraph and colleague testimony.

  “When you listen to him talk, he’s 71 and he is sharp as a tack…my conviction is like through the roof that that happened.” (72:33, Ramsay)

• Bob Lazar & Travis Walton:
  Chris recalls a private, chilling moment with Bob Lazar in which mentioning a document that said “if your name is ever mentioned they take you out back and put you down like a dog” made Bob react in visible fear.

  “He, like, stumbled back, held onto my desk and literally went, ‘Jesus Christ. Oh, shit.’ And you saw...real fear in this man that, like, oh, this isn’t over...That interaction...really changed how I saw everything.” (74:18, Ramsay)

  Travis Walton, in contrast, showed classic signs of trauma during interviews (possibly PTSD, possibly something else), causing Chris to remain more agnostic but still supportive.

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12. Out of Body Experiences — What Did Chris Feel?

Timestamps: 77:24–82:29

• Nature of the Experience:
  Chris describes his “out of body” (OBE) encounters as distinct from lucid dreams, noting intense bodily vibrations, visual and sensory distortions, lucidity and a sense of being in a slightly altered version of his room.

  “There’s a vibratory thrumming in your body, almost like you were a tuning fork getting slapped...you’re lucid during this event...it’s objectively different than a lucid dream.” (78:10, Ramsay)

• On Pursuing OBEs:
  Due to their similarity to death/near-death experiences, Chris says he isn’t in a rush to repeat them:

  “What’s the hurry, right? ...If that is what happens, right? And I have experienced it, great. I’m going to do it again when I die. Why practice dying right now?” (81:00, Ramsay)

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13. Final Thoughts and What’s Next

Timestamps: 82:29–End

• Chris is touring live events ("It's Probably Nothing"), seeking to bring the UFO conversation into a fun, informal, community-oriented space—“like hanging out with friends you don’t really know yet.”
• Upcoming interviews include Sean Neubauer, Jason Quit, Julia Mossbridge, and Richard Doty.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

Suspension of Belief

• “I’m not prepared to die on a cross, so to speak, for any conviction that I have about reality, let alone aliens…” (09:45, Ramsay)

On the Real “Lesson”

• “Maybe the lesson here is to... move on without that [official confirmation]...what we’re really seeking is...permission to ask a new question.” (46:05, Ramsay)

On a Chilling Moment with Bob Lazar

• “Bob lost his footing...stumbled back, held onto my desk and literally went, ‘Jesus Christ. Oh, shit.’ And you saw the fear, like a palpable, real fear in this man...” (74:10, Ramsay)

Wildest "True" Claim

• “Probably the underwater mobile construction unit that was on like 4chan...I’m pretty high conviction on that...I do let [Gerb’s] rigor...raise my conviction level.” (54:01, Ramsay)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 03:17 – Chris’s journey from magic to UFOs
• 08:34 – Openness vs. dogmatism in UFO beliefs
• 18:37 – Remote viewing and finding “something is going on”
• 25:24 – Where Chris lands on “what are UFOs?”
• 29:22 – Magic as a lens: self-deception over conspiracy
• 31:44 – Presenting the disclosure drama (Elizondo, Sam/Gerb, etc.)
• 54:01 – Wildest claim Chris believes: Underwater construction unit
• 68:55 – Most convincing witness: Mario Woods and his 1977 abduction
• 74:02 – Bob Lazar—personal fear, conviction
• 77:24 – Chris’s out-of-body experiences: sensory details and why he stopped

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

Chris Ramsay brings humility, humor, and radical open-mindedness to the table. For him, the value in UFOlogy lies less in answers than in the questions, the stories, and the personal journeys they provoke. The conversation invites listeners to embrace the unknown, stay fluid in their beliefs, and to seek community, enjoyment, and meaning in the pursuit—regardless of when, or if, official disclosure may come.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to that UFO podcast. As always, my name is Andy. And joining me finally on today's show, a guy I've been wanting to speak to on this podcast, at least for a while. Many of you will already know him from his channel, Area 52 and his work. I hesitate to call this gent a podcaster because I feel that's detrimental and a disservice to what he produces visually. Filmmaker, magician, documentary maker, Mr. Chris Ramsay. Chris, welcome.

[A]

Thanks, Andy. I'm glad we can finally make this happen. Very excited to talk to you today.

[B]

Yeah. Your appearance fee was huge, so I hope you make it worth it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Into the tens of thousands of dollars, Chris.

[A]

Yeah. Glad you could afford it.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Crowdfunded, but no. The calendar mashup last week was fun. A couple of weeks, so we got you.

[A]

I mean, it goes right back into Teal's pocket anyways, you know.

[B]

Oh, well, you're starting early, coming out with a big gun straight away. Listen, what I don't do too much of anymore at all is interview podcasters, because it seems to be this thing that people don't tend to like podcasters interviewing podcasters. But this one had a lot of interest. I have so many listener questions for you. I want to talk a little bit at the beginning about your. Your. Your rise to prominence in the UFO community. You had a really successful background before that, so I want. I want to start there. And how did a professional magician and puzzle creator end up going this deep into the world of UFOs?

[A]

Yeah, I was always interested in this stuff. You know, I've mentioned that in several interviews on my channel as well, like this something that I've always been interested in. Since I was about nine years old, I watched Fire in the Sky. My older brother watched a lot of horror movies, you know, and he'd watch them with me. And so I saw this, and I was blown away. The beginning of the movie, it said, this is based on a true story, which completely blew my mind that adults were telling me that in Aliens are real, essentially. So from a young age, I was already sort of indoctrinated, indoctrinated into this subject, believing and being biased that this stuff is real. And so after that, just, you know, whether it's the Unsolved Mysteries or whether it's all these documentaries or whatever, X Files or. I was just always intrigued with the mystery. And I think that's what led me into becoming a magician, was trying to figure out the mystery of things and how things worked, how things function, which eventually brought me into puzzles, which is kind of the same thing. And then, so a lot of people might see, you know, my shift from going from a magician to somebody who solves puzzles, to somebody who researches UFOs and abductions and that type of thing as three completely separate things, whereas I really see it as more of a natural progression of asking deeper and deeper questions about the nature of how things work and why things are the way they are and, you know, ultimately why we're here. And so that's just kind of the natural, short, streamlined version of how I got into this space. But, yeah, essentially, I think it's a natural progression over time. And I was also, you know, I did. I had 7 million subscribers with the YouTube magic puzzle stuff and was really successful in doing that. But, you know, success and money doesn't always translate into happiness, especially, you know, when you get to perhaps a darker part of your life, which I really was in. And I realized that it's really. It was really difficult because I Didn't really have an outlet to talk to anybody about it because I felt like I was a big baby complaining, you know, oh, poor guy, he's making money, he's got all these fans. Ooh, how bad can it be? You know? And so you get into a pretty dark place eventually when you just have no one to turn to. And I had to do some long hard thinking about what I wanted to do to pretty much to keep myself happy. And I found out that that was having a creative outlet that I could constantly be stimulated by. Novelty is something that very much stimulates me and keeps me going. And so by doing the same thing over and over for 12 years, I felt sort of at the end of my rope and I didn't really know what to do anymore. And so this provided not only, you know, sort of satiating my curiosity for the unknown, but also my creative needs through this expression, through cinematography, through editing and through all that type of thing and storytelling especially.

[B]

I tried my hand at being a magician as a nine year old where every Christmas I would ask for the Paul Daniels Magic Kit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And do you know who Paul Daniels is?

[A]

I met him. Yeah.

[B]

Did you? Right, okay.

[A]

I met him and his wife at a convention years ago.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Deborah, was it? Debbie. Deborah, yeah. So Paul Daniels, for those I'm guessing in the US who may not know him as well as folks in the UK and for other countries too, was a really well known TV magician here in the uk. He done loads of game shows and he was a really well known name. But famously as a kid, I think every Christmas or birthday you would be purchased or given as a gift. The Paul Daniels Magic Kit, that was what, 50 magic tricks. You would have a little bit of rope, a little tiny wand, a little cup, a ball and all this stuff that you couldn't do 99% of it. And I would get it, get really excited, try and do one trick, read the instructions. My sleight of hand was terrible and give up. So that's, that's about as far. But I am, when we do eventually meet in person, I am the easiest person to do a trick to. Whether you want to call it fooling or whatever it is. I am so susceptible to magic and I love it and it blows me away. So anyone who can do it and sleight of hand, that kind of stuff, absolutely love.

[A]

Well, that's, that's also, I mean, that's interesting because it also speaks to your ability to suspend your disbelief, which directly translates into this topic sometimes as we all have to do when listening to these fantastical stories.

[B]

So, yeah, magic to wrestling to UFOs. And on that. And obviously you see, suspend your disbelief. Like there are some people I found in the six and a bit years now doing this podcast and being more involved. And we're going to get onto that community word, but we know what we're talking about when we see it. How have you found in the last few years getting involved directly with the UFO world, and not only directly with a community, but you've had so many of the biggest and most elusive names have appeared on your. Needless to say, Bob Lazar, you know, Bob, who famously does nothing like that, has now been on your show. How have you found those kind of interactions and where does your suspension of disbelief begin and end? With this topic?

[A]

Yeah, great question. I think that. I don't know.

[B]

There.

[A]

There are, as you've probably noticed, there are a lot of people in this topic who frequent this topic. Whether you're just a fan or whether you're a creator or a researcher or an experiencer. There. There seems to be a lot of people who have a stern sort of unwavering foundation upon which their entire belief system is built. And it is. It can be tricky to navigate the topic if you're such a person. And so that's where I think you'll see a lot of pushback with a lot of people. They're not ready to completely shift that foundation, which stacks all these other experiences that they've built upon for their entire life. You know, you're asking them a lot by asking them to suspend their disbelief or to suspend their belief in this case. And, and so it. That's. I feel like that's like the more abrasive side of the community are people who haven't practiced that enough perhaps in their lifetime. Not that they're incapable of it, but just that maybe they haven't had the practice. And for myself, and I think for a lot of other people that really genuinely enjoy all aspects of this topic, whether it's the outlandish, you know, sort of crazier experience or interviews, that type of stuff, or, you know, the nuts and bolts stuff or the spiritual stuff or the, you know, the Jacques Filets and the all that, I think that people who, people like myself, perhaps people like yourself and other. Other people listening who aren't afraid of having a sort of modular foundation or mutable foundation that allows it to sort of change and reconfigure how we feel about things. Like, it isn't. I'm not prepared to die on a cross, so to speak, for any conviction that I have about reality, let alone aliens, you know. And so it's very easy for me. I find it very easy for myself to completely ignore this idea of this binary construct of belief or don't believe. And so it's very easy for me to have these conversations and just think, what if? What if what? This person. All right, let's go with it. You know, I lose nothing, and I have everything to gain by just indulging in someone's story. And at the end of the day, I'm not forced to make a decision. No one's forcing me to believe or not believe. That's just a construct we impose upon ourselves or those around us in the community. So I suppose my entire channel is a kind of aesthetic reflection of this notion of not holding on to something and let's just have fun. There is whimsy to be had. There are enlightening things, things to come across even in the most silly of places. And so don't let you know, the crazy or the scary or any of that. Stop you from just ingesting, digesting, and sort of, you know, reconfiguring how you might feel about something and yourself. You know, I admire you a lot, too, because you have this amazing sense of humor. And I'm a big fan of comedy. And I think comedy, you know, there's a reason why it provides levity. It's enlightening. There. There it really is. And the. The people like George Carlin, you know, who's a famous comedian, he had some of the best philosophical takes of our time. He was a philosopher. So I think finding, you know, enlightenment in strange places, especially like entertainment, to be. To be crucial to keeping a grounded sort of level head when dealing with this topic. Otherwise, if you get pulled in one direction or the other, you might. You might get a little crazy.

[B]

Some people take offense when this is called entertainment or infotainment. I know Clint Weldon over a night shift. He often says, you know, that this is entertainment. So much of this other people, this is their life, and you've touched on that there, that they take this so seriously. But there are some folks who. Who would claim to have had the most incredibly unsettling and traumatic experiences as part of this topic. There's other folks who do treat it as a hobby or something fun, and then you get everything in the middle. And I suppose your channel has connected with so many folks that allows people to enjoy the topic however they want. I'd like to think this does the same, where you're welcome, no matter what your. Your take is on that. What are your personal boundaries for the topic? So, famously, I have an issue with a lot of the orb stuff that gets posted. And again, I'll state for the millionth time, I am not saying there are no such things as orbs. I think a lot of the videos that appear on social media are satellites and stars and the ISS and dust and ring doorbells, birds and bats. Yeah, I think there's a lot of that. So. And same with the. When you go to a conference, I've only ever really been to one properly, but. And all the crystal healing stuff, and I met Palladian beings and stuff like that, it's just not my bag and I really struggle with that. So what are some of the things you maybe struggle to connect with personally like that in the topic?

[A]

I think most of it, I think I struggled. Well, I don't struggle. I just. I don't. I'm low conviction across the board on. On most things, like genuinely most things. I think the only thing that I'm really high conviction on is that there is something going on. And I think a lot of people feel that same sentiment in this space. Like, we don't have the answers definitively. Some of us might, but there's no way that, you know, you can just convince someone of that through conversation. You'd have to experience it yourself. And so, yeah, I, you know, you touched on the orb stuff. I think I agree with you there. Like, you know, I. I'd spoken to Vinnie recently and he'd asked the same question. You know, for me, it's. Yes, obviously, I think, I think, you know, like in the case of Chris Bledsoe, there was an initial event, and with most experiencers, there seems to be an initial event that had happened. And I'm pretty high conviction that that happened. There was multiple witnesses and everything else now from there to say that every single one of these videos being shared is some celestial being or entity that isn't, you know, of here. I wouldn't go as far as to say that I agree with all that, but again, I'm not smart enough to understand what it is we're looking at. If I have a satellite tracker and I see a satellite, I go, okay, it's satellite. But if it doesn't appear as a satellite, I have to say to myself, okay, perhaps it's a satellite that just. I don't have on my app, or it's something else. Like, I don't Know, I don't have that information. So it's all speculative really. For myself, I'm not going to yuck on anyone's yum. Like if you, if you're someone who, you know, wants to believe in something, fine, that's cool. I don't, I'm not James Randi. I'm not here to debunk any of that. I'm simply here to present all the things and let's, you know, let's take it all into consideration and, you know, if you want to have your own opinion about things or belief system about things. Who am I, you know, to, to strip you of that? I, I think it changes nothing at the end of the day except how we interact with each other. But if there is a phenomenon happening, which I think there is, whatever we say about it, do about it, believe about it, changes nothing at the end of the day. So it really is just about yourself and how you interact with your own community and your own self.

[B]

Yeah, no, that's fair. I'm with you on a lot of that. I think a fluid opinion in this topic, something I've always tried to keep because I think I've always had a, you see, low conviction for me. I'm always prepared to be let down by anyone or any group, no matter who. I think right now a lot of folks should, would put their eggs in the David Grush basket. But you know, we could be sitting here in a couple of years time going, God, Grush was a psyop and can you believe he was working for the CIA all the whole time? And yeah, and he done the whole Scooby Doo reveal, mask came off and it was Sean Kirkpatrick's twin brother. You know, we could, we could easily be there in a couple of years. But you know, and same with the Bledsoe story. I'm with you on this idea of people having an initial interaction. And I think for some, not for all, I'd say I put myself in the camp too of the Bledsoe experience. Quite well may have happened as reported, but then the idea of did it continue to happen after, that's more debatable, you know, if my 10 year old son manages to do like a bottle flip first time, but I don't see it. And he goes, oh dad, dad, I've done it, I'll believe him. But once he starts telling me the same story happened over and over again and I've done it with a beer keg and you know, I've done a backflip afterwards and yeah. Okay. It starts to become less believable over time, but maybe he did, I don't know. So I think that's something I've tried to navigate because I understand there are people who listen to and watch this that believe different things and it'll be the same. Chris, with your channel as well. What I'd love to know, because you touched on, you know, we're going to touch on some of the things you think about the topic, but what was your, your first in with your channel when you first decided, I'm going to do this thing, I'm going to start this ufo. Who are the people you speak to? I think for me, from the outside, you know, we, we don't really converse privately and, you know, we don't meet up, you know, I'm different country and stuff like that. Like I say, we'll meet one day from the outside. I look at your. Your hang with with Jesse Michaels from time to time online. You seem to be on there with G. You know, you've got a few folks that you know in the community. What was your in and how did you start kind of paving a very quick path in this community?

[A]

Well, I got in with the remote viewing stuff. Right. That's what initially made me go into this entire space because I was really quite skeptical of it and skeptical of the whole psy ability thing. As a magician, as someone who practiced mentalism, I'm familiar with methods, and so it really didn't impress me anything that I was seeing. And then I had a friend of mine, Nelson Dallas, who's a memory champion, and he had, you know, he taught me a bunch of memory techniques, mind palaces, that type of thing in order to help improve some of my magic. I had asked, hey, do you want to come hang out? And we just make content together. And one day he told me about how he was sort of recruited by this hedge fund in order to be taught remote viewing, to remote view the stock market to make them money. And this is a guy who's skeptical. He's got a physics background. He's very much very practical guy. And so I was curious and he's like, do you know what remote viewing is? I said, yeah, watch this documentary back in the day, psychic spy thing. And I said, can you teach me what they taught you and maybe I can try it out? And so he did that. And I did it for like a year. And I documented my journey through that and found through my journey and through interviewing people like, I reached out to Joe McMonagle, Dr. Edwin May. Who else? Who else was there? I'm forgetting his name here. Ed. Ed Dames. Major Ed Dames sadly passed away this march. You know, and he was a contentious figure, I found out afterwards in the. But nonetheless, he was, you know, fun to have a meal with. And he had a lot of great stories. And, you know, through doing this and through really diving into the research, especially a lot of Dr. Ed May's research, who, you know, just publish, I think, a million words on it, I came to the conclusion that, no, this is. This is actually a thing. This is a thing that works. It's not reliable by any means, it's not accurate, but it is being used and it did work, and it does work. And so when I came to that conclusion, it really, really rocked my world. And it was also at the time where I was like, I can't post this to my magic audience. They're going to think I'm nuts. You know, they're not ready for this stuff because they have methods in their head like I did. They didn't go through this journey like I did. And that's when I started this new channel. After that, I had a subsequent out of two out of body experiences, which, again, I didn't ask for it, didn't want, didn't know what they were when they happened. And it threw me for a loop. Bought some books, reached out to the Monroe Institute, asked them if I can document, you know, the gateway process. They said, no, we've never done this before. And then I worked with Paul Citarella, the vp, and I kind of. I was like, hey, man, look, it's going to be good for Monroe. I promise you I'll do it tastefully, but I also want to be the first to document this. You know, apparently CIA did this and everything else. And so he finally let me and I made that documentary. Met a bunch of creators through there. That's where I met Ryan Bledsoe, because he was part of that creator group. And so everything after that fell felt, especially after Monroe, because I started meditating like an hour a day. Everything started to feel very much aligned in synchronicity. And it's not, again, not something I would ever have even given thought to prior to my experience there. And I remember because that was gaining some notoriety online or people were starting to watch it and pay attention. I was starting to watch other creators and I found. I found Jesse and I'd reached out to him. I was like, hey, we should, you know, make content sometime. We'd love to have you on the channel or whatnot. And he's like, yeah, cool. And we'd never met. And I remember this is interesting. This is where it gets, like, weird and synchronous. But I kept having these, like, 1111, you know, synchronicities, which, again, are super basic if you're like, might as well have, like, a live laugh love sign behind me. And I kept having them, though. They kept appearing on receipts on, you know, everywhere. And I was like, what does this mean? You know, and at Google, and it says, a great change is coming. Some vague Barnum statement. And I was like, okay. And then in November, I had spoken to Jesse, and I was like, hey, let's go to Austin. Let's do some content. And he's like, cool. And I recorded our phone call for, like, a vlog, and he's like, should we go to the congressional hearing now? At this point? I was like, I don't know. I'm kind of okay just hanging out. You know, it's cool, but maybe it's better, I don't know, just to hang out. And he agreed. We were both like, yeah, it's probably all stuffy, and we really didn't want to do it. We were just stoked on hanging out. This is the second congressional hearing, right? The one after Crush.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And. And he goes on camera, and I have this, like, in the vlog. He goes, well, you know, if something changes, let's switch it up. Let's look for the signs. And so I fly out, go to Austin, but I'm in Chicago on a layover. So I'm like, on an hour time difference. Jesse hits me up, and he goes, hey, Michael Shellenberger has, like, a plus one. Maybe I can get a plus two. Do you want to go, like, last minute? We might be able to get in. And I was like, let me check out flights. And I go to flights, and I screenshot the flights, and I send it to him. And it's 11, 11 when I screenshotted, and it was 11 November. So it was like, 11, 11, 11, 11. I was like, dude, I think we have to go. And so we just changed our entire plans. You know, we had. I had a hotel booked. I had, like, friends there, like, that we're gonna. That we're gonna hang out with. And we just went there. And at that hearing is where I met Lou, is where I met James Fox, Leslie Kane. I met a whole bunch of people. Well, Lou and James became, I think, the first in the first month that I started posting episodes in the Skiff the. The interview room. My first guest was Chrissy Newton. I think my second guest was James Fox, and then my third was like, Lou. And so those two interviews helped propel the channel because they were getting so much. They were going, you know, pretty crazy online. And so all of that is attributed to this 1111 thing that happened through Monroe. So the entire trajectory for me felt incredibly synchronous. And since then I've been kind of following synchronicity. I know that's a weird answer, but it's. It's what happened.

[B]

The audio feed for this podcast goes out at 11:11 UK time. I purposely released the episodes at 11:11.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Obviously, depending on where you are in the world, that may be slightly different, but you'll notice they drop on the free feeds at 11 minutes past the hour. But that's why. Yeah, so I do the same thing, man, and have done for quite a few years now. So on that, then we've talked about the podcast and I'm not going to blow smoke up your arse with production values and how jealous I am of just. Even the camera you have, the capability you've got. It looks sensational. But let's, let's talk about you and where you are with, with the UFO topic and phenomenon. So from. From low conviction, being pretty skeptical of the remote viewing phenomenon, you're now, you're now speaking to Travis Walton, Elizondo, James Fox, Bob Lazar. You're getting all these different narratives, potentially agendas, all these different stories and experiences coming at you. Your shows often start with the. The clip that someone sent in a voicemail and you get to hear someone's experience, their sighting. It can be pretty simple. It can be much more extreme. Where have you landed on what we're dealing with here? If folks come into this topic, Chris, with, are there aliens coming from other planets? Yes or no, that quickly dissipates and you end up with something else. Where are you?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know. I'm somewhere. Like, it's tough to say. It really is tough. And I'm sure, you know, you're the same way. I spoke recently to Dr. Julia Mossbridge and she had a great way of saying that she's like, we're not just dealing with race cars in the sky, you know, And I think that, I think that rings true for me as well. I think we get into this topic thinking we know a lot because we've heard about the Grays, you know, and we're like, oh, it's the grays, you know, and like, we have this sort of furrowed brow on how, you know, intelligent are. And then the deeper you get, the more you realize I know nothing at all. And that. That has happened to me multiple times throughout previous careers. Like in magic, you know, 10 years in, I thought I was so confident, and I had this Dunning Kruger effect where the confidence level was the same as that who. That of someone who did it for 50 years. But it is then that I realized I know nothing at all about magic. Even 10 years in doing it professionally, my glass just went from full to completely empty. And so I come into this space with that humility, already having learned my lessons elsewhere. And so I don't. I love speculating. I love throwing things out there. I'm not ready to commit to anything. And I think part of me thinks that, you know, a lot of the people who are nearing the end of their lives, maybe not even nearing the end of their lives, but maybe sensing the mortality that, you know, that is sort of imminent a little more, are a little more reluctant or reticent to want to be open to all possibilities. I. I think there is this thing about, as we near, you know, facing our own mortality, we want to package things in neatly into a nice bundle that we say, oh, it's a control system. That's all it is. It's a tricky trickster, little funny little control, or it's a. Oh, no, it's all this is, is. It's. It's the plea or the reticula or whatever it. And we. We tend to do that. I'm just not ready to do any of that. I love the idea of all of these things existing simultaneously individually. I think it's very stimulating. But I am in a suspended state of. And I didn't. Maybe coming into this topic, I was a little bit more on the side of, no, there's definitely aliens. I'm not so sure anymore that that is the case, that they are alien, that they are definite, that they are physical. I don't know. But I'm open to that still being the case.

[B]

So with that background, then, as a magician and sleight of hand, you know, the left hand doesn't want you to see what the right hand is doing. Is that the lens? You often view some of these conversations around that someone is saying X, but actually it's Y. Do you come in with the same sort of mindset?

[A]

Yeah, I definitely do, but I think. I think it's more elusive than that. I think people fool Themselves and I think that's what we're seeing a lot of. I don't, I don't necessarily, from what I can pick up, see a lot of people pushing agendas. As much as that's hard to believe for people who are very conspiratorially minded. I think maybe the agendas are self imposed and I think that the, a lot of times what we're seeing is someone who is convinced of something and they themselves then fit everything into that through that filter. And so the information that they're getting, you know, is definitely filtered to, to, to meet their own needs of what they think it is. So when someone's, you know, because I pick up on deception for sure, I think a lot of people do though. I think naturally we can feel that, you know, there is something to be said when somebody says something and then they, you know, they do this or they do this. Like those are not natural tells that there's like some type of stress there, whatever that is. But for the most part I don't think it has anything to do with like this nefarious agenda of pushing something forward. For the most part I'm not going to completely rule it out, you know, because they're, you look at the mid to late 80s, there is that whole debacle with Bill Moore, Richard Doty, all these other people who were involved with the UFO community that were actively disseminating false, misleading information, disinformation within the community. So I don't rule it out. I just think for the most part even those people are fooled as well. I think that we're all kind of fools in this. We're all gathering the information and processing it differently through these false filters that are probably not healthy.

[B]

Yeah, I think modern day we're viewing the UFO topic through a very unique lens that other folks haven't in past decades. Because we now have social media, we have instant gratification, we have news within minutes of it happening anywhere in the world. Everyone has a camera, a microphone, everyone has an opinion these days as we both know doing what we do and we're lucky that people choose to listen to and watch it. But we're seeing things play out in a very public way we have never seen before. Even folks who have been involved in this topic. I'll get people email me and say, Andy, I'm 60, 70, nearly 80 years old and I've seen all this before. What they've never had before is social media and everyone around the world knowing what's happening all at the same time. And we are seeing still camps breaking up and coming out right now this week. So many folks were getting in touch to say discuss this and usually I would do a news update, but I knew you were coming on tonight. So very publicly we've had, taking it back a few weeks, Ross Coulter on News Nation, who is a huge name in the topic. Everyone in this topic is Marmite. Some people love you, some people hate you, some people are indifferent. Ross comes out on News Nation and basically says, paraphrasing Louis Elizondo hasn't been totally honest, Lou was part of the legacy program, Lou should be honest, etc. Things were quiet. Trump then comes out, sort of comes out and says, NDAs no longer apply for these whistleblowers. They can say what they want. However, there's a lot of caveats there. And I think people like Matthew Brown, Dylan Borland and others, and Louis Elizondo himself just on YouTube yesterday tried to say we can't just come out and say everything we want to because who we are meant to go to, how we're meant to present it, all of this protections for whistleblowers all still matter. And I'll try and get to my point before I forget it here, Chris. The whistleblowers then are unsure what to do. So you've got Ross coming out, accusing Lou, Lou staying quiet. Garb then goes on to, and I feel I want to call him Sam at this point, I don't know Gerb, other than one interaction. But everyone knows now his name's Sam and he's got this incredible mind, which is not normal. That is not just someone who has a good memory. Right. It's whatever the, whatever Sam has that is a condition that allows him to do what he does is not something that can be learned. Okay.

[A]

Feels like one of those super soldiers.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's just wild.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I showed my wife.

[A]

He's also like six, four.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Jacked. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So I showed my wife like a two minute clip of him speaking yesterday. And I was like, listen to this guy talk. And our eyes just went, huh? I'm like, yeah, this is. He does this for hours on end and he doesn't trip up. So he comes out and throws, throws some jabs at Elizondo. Basically, he's. What was the word? Detrimental to the disclosure process. He should not be the czar that is about to be appointed. Then Elizondo comes out and drops this YouTube video rebuttal where he's clearly pissed off. And many folks would say he's quite right to be because he's been called out on this show again hosted by Ross, who's fanning the flames a little bit of this whole situation. And I'm kind of recapping this as I go across for folks who might not be aware of it because a few folks weren't, believe it or not, Lou then. And I'll say, in my opinion, he is in some way threatening in the way he speaks to and about Gerb Sam, to basically say I wouldn't and correct me if I'm wrong. Chris, there's consequences to what you say. I wouldn't want to be you. He's a little bit, what's the word? He tries to emasculate him by saying he met him a month ago, he looked like he was almost crying because people were surrounding him at an event. And you know, like you say, this is a six foot four guy who, you know, he could take a few guys down. I'm sure he's a big dude, he looks friendly enough, but I wouldn't want to pass him off. So you've got all of this playing out really publicly with what looks like the guy who is about to be appointed in a new UFO czar position, one of the, the most well known journalists in this space with a, with a mainstream platform to talk about it. And then this, this relatively young guy who's come along, this uber researcher who knows plots A through to Z and then back again and this is all playing out publicly. So when there's no, no agendas and narratives, what do you see is going on in that particular situation and how this plays into where we are even at in this whole disclosure process?

[A]

I think it's distracting for sure. I think it's to some, might be very important. To me, not so much. I don't like.

[B]

We're.

[A]

What are we discussing here? Like, we're, we're discussing whether or not someone knows some things. Okay. You know, I don't know. I like Sam, I like Lou. I. They were both kind to me, they were both generous with, you know, wanting to come forward and talking. Every time I, if I text either of them, they'll answer. And this is before, you know, I had a really big successful channel. And so, yeah, I, you know, seeing both of them go at each other is a little concerning for perhaps the direction of the topic. Like, what are we doing here? We're all supposed to be on the same team. I'll say that if Sam or Lou doesn't come forward with proof, then I'LL assume nobody has it. All right? Sam doesn't have proof. Lou doesn't have proof. So what are we arguing about? You know, like, until one of them wants to come out and show something, I guess, like, okay, but like, I, I really, I understand people's frustration with, with Lou, and I understand Lou's frustration with Sam. And I just don't want, I don't, I don't know. I, I don't see it as a net positive at the end of the day for. Okay, I'll put it this way. If you, if I was like, the UFOs are. Or if I was like whatever nondescript entity that controls disclosure, right? If I was that thing and you come to me and I say, I will give you a truthful, honest answer about whatever question you want. And my question is very simple. And I say to this entity, I say, are we alone? And the entity says, yes. Okay, what's my reaction? What's your reaction to that? You, what's your reaction, Andy? Yes, we're alone.

[B]

I would understand. I suppose that's how I'm going to answer this. Why skeptics would say people get involved in UFOs because you can't say, you can't answer the question, we're not alone by saying, well, yeah, that's correct, we're not. Because there could always be somewhere and that the hunt will always go on. You're always going to chase that dragon. But you could ultimately, at some point answer the, we're not alone. We've got proof of that.

[A]

But let's say we are alone. That's the answer. We are alone. Let's say this, this, this UFOs are. And this whole entity says, yes, we're alone. What's your reaction to that?

[B]

I wouldn't believe that through personal experience.

[A]

Correct? Right. And I think a lot of people in this topic wouldn't either. So my question is this. If you're resigned to us not being alone, then who cares what they say, right? Like, move past it. Let's ask the next question now, because this question obviously is a non starter. If they answer yes, we're alone, we're just going to keep knocking at the door until the answer is, no, we're not alone. And so you might as well just assume we're not. If we're going to go down that road and move past it and like, and forget all this government stuff. Like, forget all these guys bickering back and forth. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If whatever you say now some might say, well, it does matter because, you know, they have crashed vehicles and aliens that we need to know about. And I'm like, well, on that same topic, if they were to show you anything, you're not going to believe it anyways. You're going to say, no, this is bs, this is bluebeam, this is whatever. And so I think the whole conversation regarding the government's efforts and which could be noble and could be progressive and could have a net positive, I think it's all kind of useless if we're going to constantly say, well, I don't believe you, Lynn. Let's just not even ask those questions in that direction and let's just keep, you know, focusing on the grassroots movement. I think a lot of what we're going to, and a lot of what we have uncovered, let's be clear, 99% of what we have uncovered isn't through government disclosure. And it won't come through government disclosure. It'll come through experiencers. It'll come through boots on the ground. You know, it's going to come through that type of modality. But I, I don't. So when it comes to like the argument on this and that, and you know, they're, they're arguing, there's like the Capitol, Washington in the background, I, I really could care less. And I, I wish everyone well in that space. And I want them all to find the answers they're seeking. And I do hope they're doing it out of the genuine kindness of their heart and their need to want to disclose things. And perhaps they have their own reasons not to. I don't know. I don't know. Point is, I don't care. I think what we're doing right now is equally as important as a hearing or as anything else. That's my opinion. And some might disagree and that's okay as well. And I won't push back on that. You know, you have your right to, to want that. But for me, I'm just very happy talking shit and getting out there and meeting people and talking to, you know, somebody that no one believes, but and also taking a soil sample, you know, and learning something about it that I know nothing about. And like, that's okay. This stuff is going to be generational anyways. You know, for the most part, I think most people feel that frustration, like you mentioned of, you know, I've been doing this for 60 years and it's never going to change. Most people feel the frustration of realizing that they're not going to see it happen. In their lifetime. And I am resigned to it not happening in my lifetime already. So it doesn't bother me at all. It's going to happen. If you look at the trajectory, right, the trajectory we're all in favor of, it is not moving away from interests in UFOs and aliens. It is moving towards it en masse across all platforms across the world. And that's because we're getting more information, we're asking deeper questions. Inevitably we're going to get there. Might not be in my lifetime or my grandchildren's lifetime, but eventually it'll be there. And we just might not be around to see it. And that might be frustrating, but I don't really care. I think it's, you know, what is, what is it? What is it they say disclosure isn't. Disclosure is the friends you make along the way or some.

[B]

Yeah, and you know what? I completely get that. I think there's an element of this for the public to get on board. It almost seems like they need permission to believe in this and to follow it. And that would require some form of official government confirmation. I think Richard Dolan always says, you know, confirmation rather than disclosure is far more likely. And I think a lot of folks would take that. So if you take the public out the equation and then you look at the UFO folks, all encompassing as that is. Yeah, we, we don't need again, personal experience. I don't need the government of any country to tell me what I did or didn't see one. One time. Okay. However, there is something in human nature that when you have an authority figure, we've all had that boss at work that maybe we've not liked, especially when we're younger. And then that one day you do something and that person turns around and you don't care about their opinion, what they say, what they think, you don't get on with them. They're not your type of people. And one day they go, oh, good job, Chris. And that means something to you that it doesn't coming from other people. And I think there's an element of this conversation where even the UFO community, they want the big bad guy, the COVID up, the gatekeepers to go. You were right. Almost just as a relief. And I don't even know if people will be happy with that long term. That might be like a thank God, but where do we go now? Because that's. That it's all. What's the. It's just that affection they've always wanted potentially or that, that kind of craving. That. Yeah, that Acknowledgment that, yeah, you were right, and everything you. You believed, everything you argued for, everything you wanted, you've got it. There you go. And I think you can get that in groups and conferences and podcasts and documentaries and books and years of research. But there's still this yearning, I see, for an official body to come out and say, yeah, there's something for people to be actually happy. And whether that actually makes them happy or not, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good point. I would. I would say maybe that's the lesson then. Maybe the lesson here is to, you know, maybe move on without that. Maybe that's the deeper lesson, because as you and I know, you're going to get the next thing, and you're going to want the next thing after that. Like, it's not. There's no end. You're not going to go. Got it? All right, what's next? We're going to a spoon convention next month. Because spoons are pretty cool. Like, it's not how that works. You're. You're going to. And, you know, that might be the reason why, again, you know, people mistakenly, I think we put all of our energy into. We need the answers. We need the answers. But to realize what we're really seeking is, like you said, the permission to ask a new question. Okay. Because once I get that answer, all I'm going to do is ask a new question. And so that's what we're really after, is being allowed to ask a new question. And we're kind of stalled with this one because they refuse to give us the answer. And then we get frustrated with guys like Lou because he perhaps might have a piece of the puzzle that we don't, which allows him to ask a new question that we're not even aware of. And we want that privilege as well. We want that privilege to be allowed to ask a new question. But some people are holding that close to their chest, and we're like, hey, how come you get to ask a new question about where you're from? And I can't. I still have to ask this old question. Do you have an answer to? And so, again, it's like, we're not going to be happy with the answer. Of course not. That's just not how human nature works. But we will be excited to ask a new question, and I think that's the importance of getting that confirmation for people. But like I said, I think if you just assume you have the answer, then you can posit those questions. Anyways, you don't have to wait for anyone. And at the end of the day, it's a little more freeing because you're not reliant on, you know, someone's permission. You can just. You can just feel that way. It's fine.

[B]

You've seen Inception. Yeah.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. Great movie. And I feel like an. Okay, I can spoil it, folks. So if you don't want to hear the next 30 seconds, the end of Inception, I feel it's difficult to walk away from it.

[A]

It's a funny time to spoil Inception, by the way.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Halfway through a UFO podcast a decade later, it's like, okay, Exactly.

[B]

Sorry, folks. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Right at the end, when DiCaprio does his little spin and top, he's totem, and he decides to walk away before it either falls down or keeps going because he's realized that he's happy where he is. That's what I feel. You're saying that you. You need that person to come over and take your hand and go walk away.

[A]

But our.

[B]

Our totem right now is looking at Grush in Elizondo and the Congress and the task force and the caucus and the bills and the hearings, and it's what you're seeing as. Chris, you almost. You're. You're the guy who's over here going, andy, just. It's fine. You don't need that. Come over this way. We can go look at other. We can ask other questions. We can go research this. You can go off on these tangents, and it's really hard to walk over your direction and look back all this. That's the totem still spinning, and it might be about to drop any second, but it also might not. And that's. That's so difficult for people to walk away because it seems like there might be, like, a progress there happening, but we're not sure. And there might be walk away from that.

[A]

You don't have to walk away. You just don't have to give it all your energy, you know, and if I, you know, just because I'm not reading every, you know, FOIA request that has come back and doesn't mean I'm not interested. And if somebody with the whole of the Internet, there's so many smart people out there raking through these and combing through these files all, all the time and consistently way more than I am. Like, I mean, these. You know, there's people out there on Reddit and everything else. They're. They're doing the Lord's work out there. It's crazy.

[B]

It's wild.

[A]

Yeah, it really is. And, you know, I'm kind of. I'm happy to let them do that. I'm more than happy to read the Cliff Notes. Once that comes out, you know, I won't feel shame and not following it the entire time and being late to the party. That's okay. If it happens, it happens. That's awesome. In the meantime, you know, have some fun. Enjoy what you're doing. Enjoy the process of doing whatever it is you love doing. And that's, you know, not to segue into the live shows that we're doing. But, you know, it's part of the idea behind doing these live shows is that if you. If you like music, you can go to concerts. If you like sports, you can go to sporting events. But, like, other than conferences, which can feel a little stuffy at times or a little serious, especially in these, you know, the lecture halls and everything else, there isn't a place to go to where you can just kind of let loose, have fun and talk about some stuff you love or maybe, you know, throw some ideas out there and that and that type of thing. So having this and being able to do that with people and watching them just leave the kids at home for a night, go out to dinner, you know, chat about whatever, and let's talk about, oh, I think I have an implant. Okay, and let's go there and, like, there's no judging. And it's fun. And you learn. You learn things, but you're also just completely free of any responsibility to the topic itself. You don't. I don't. You know, I don't think it's a healthy thing to be too much invested in. You can be invested in it, but you can also still go outside and enjoy fresh air and outdoor activities. My way of saying, you know, touch grass. But, like, you can still play video games. You can still go on with your life. I don't speak for everybody. Obviously, people might have traumatic experiences which they feel prevents them from, you know, enjoying such things. But for the most part, I think, you know, we can still have fun in this. There's no reason not to have fun. This is a fun topic to be a part of.

[B]

I have to remind myself of that now and again. And people often ask me, and it took me quite a few years to get to a point of being able to say, I'm doing nothing for a few days that involve UFOs. I am. I'm going to go play PS5. I'm going to go a football match. I'm going to spend time with the kids. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to, you know, I'm just going to go do something else. And I can stay away from it. If something major happens, usually I'll get text messages or DMs and stuff, but I can spend a few days away from it and then come back. And it can be refreshing. You get a different train of thought. It kind of resets you a little bit. Gets the ram out your head that messes things up as well. And yeah, I think that is important for folks. But like you say, for some folks, this is their whole life. For other folks as a hobby and you get everything in between as well. And there were so many people who did get in touch that I'm going to get to that in just a second, Chris. But I wanted to ask one more thing actually. Do you know what? I'm going to let Jeff ask it because Jeff asks a really similar question to what I was going to segue with anyway. So thank you to everyone who sent in a question. I will not get to them all today with Chris. Hopefully down the line Chris will come back on and we can get through so many more of your questions. If not, you can send them over. I'm sure Chris will spend all day emailing you all back one at a time. But yeah, thanks for getting in touch, Jeff. Jeff asks, what is the most outrageous sounding claim within the UFO topic that you suspect may actually be true?

[A]

Probably the underwater mobile construction unit that was on like 4chan. I suspected. I'm pretty high conviction on that. Where I started off pretty low, is like, oh, this is just some larp. And funny enough, Gerb was someone who, you know, while talking to him, confirmed to me, well, confirmed, you know, as he put it, he had people with direct knowledge in the program that confirmed to him that all of that was pretty much true. Everything except like the submarine being obliterated. But he's like everything else, every detail was absolutely true. And you know, I, I don't let that be the only piece of information, but I do. Because knowing Gerb's rigor, when it comes to, you know, vetting his sources and getting information, doing research, I do let it raise my conviction level. And so that's one thing. But then if you look at so many other things, whether it's the craft that Bob allegedly worked on, Bob Lazar, which if you look at the inside of it, there's no kitchen, there's no bedrooms, it's three seats, that's it. Built to spec. Matt Brown said something similar on his interview. He said these are made to purpose, which sounds an awful lot like built to spec, which was emphasized in this document. And you hear that over and over again. And so, and then you hear about all these sightings that happen in the trench or in, in the Bahamas, in, you know, in the Catalinas, like all in the water, like with these giant USOs. And, and so it does, you know, start to help you piece together this, this world building view of everything. And so yeah, I would say I'm pretty high conviction that, that, that, that there is something there.

[B]

Yeah, I love that one. That's one I've said quite a lot the last kind of 6 to 12 months as well, that it's a wonderful what if and it's one of the kind of magical, speculative. Holy shit, wouldn't that be cool? It's one you can't really tell your friends or people that ask me about the topic outside. So is there something going on? Well, let me tell you about this underwater base that's mobile and for those who maybe haven't heard, the idea is there's an underwater base off the coast of the United states that the U.S. government and contractors know about and that when it's approached it makes UFOs by the way. And when it's approached it disappears for days at a time and then comes back. So like a really big wall. Erm, I imagine it as being hamburger, apparently. Hammer shaped hamburger. Oh, hamburger shaped, yeah.

[A]

But then the crafts are hammer shaped, which is also strange.

[B]

And then like you think of the story of the missile with the frogmen that were going in to retrieve the missile from the water. They go down and this huge thing appears to rise up from under the water, engulfs the missile and pulls it down and they're like, pull me up, pull me up, pull me up. And like again, does that speak to underwater bases? It would make sense. I love that. That's a good answer. Jeff also did ask Chris on the other side of that, what apparently reasonable or believable theory do you think is probably false?

[A]

That's false. Reasonable theory that is probably false. Well, it's hard to, it's hard to be reasonable in this topic. Reasonable theory that is probably false. I would say maybe the Reptilians. It's not, it's unreasonable. But it, that's common. Yeah, yeah, it's quite common. I'm not going to rule it out completely. I do want them to Be real. There is a part of me that wants, you know, the Lacerta Files to be a documentary and not a romance novel. Yeah. So I would say maybe. Maybe. Yeah. The. The. But then I'm not opposed to things living underground. You know, there's lots of. Especially ancient cultures that talk about these things. And so I don't know. I don't know. There's. I think there's something in everything, but they're all probably false at face value. There's probably a truth there in everything. But, like, the stories, and I mean, for. The likelihood is that they can't all be real. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. No, good answer. Pixel Faction said we repeatedly hear stories about senior officials or insiders discovering the truth and reacting emotionally, sometimes even crying, speculate for us. What could the reality be that would cause that kind of reaction?

[A]

Love that question. That is great, because I ponder that as well. You think about people who want to know, want everyone to know, and then people who know want no one to know. Right. And that is like a really dark thought to think of, because now you're like, what on earth could you have been shown or told that makes you not want to tell anyone else? That makes you want to shut down and be like, no one can know of this. And there are probably several ways that you can take this, but I think one is probably tied to the container comment that Bob Lazar had when he read through some of these old documents, right. That we are all just containers. And now you think containers of what? Containers of blood, containers of food, container like wine. Do we age well? Or. Or are we. Is. Is it like some type of soul container or consciousness container? And if that's the case, then is there a way to control which container the soul goes into or where the soul moves? And so I think as soon as you talk about anything after death is having an answer, I think that's scary. Death itself frightens a lot of people because it's the unknown. But I think what's more frightening than the unknown is a certainty after death that is very scary. To know where you're going and to know that there's no avoiding it. You can't not die, and then you're going into some giant recycle farm on the moon or something. I don't know. I think that's a. Terrifying. To know that we are potentially just. I think this is probably the. Probably the more true thing is, okay, if you were to want to, I don't know, populate another planet, let's say, like Mars, Right. You Couldn't do so without building a dome build or building underground or. So there's no atmosphere there, right? So you would have to look for exoplanets, right? And to do this, you'd probably have to have the ability to bounce around the universe at will. So let's say you're a couple billion years advanced. You're bouncing around the universe, you're mapping out exoplanets, and you found, you know, in one galaxy, you found 20 billion exoplanets that can possibly, potentially harbor some type of life. But you realize quickly that none of them are perfect. None of them are exactly like Earth. The gravity's off, the radiation level is off, just the nitrogen levels, the plants, there's allergens, whatever, something's going to kill you. It's not perfect. It's not Earth. We were bred here. We were meant for here. No matter where you go, you're going to have to live in a suit somehow or live in some type of. And so wouldn't it be easier if we. If we found the native species that was already growing there, right, that didn't have a hard time living there at all, and then over time, you know, sort of manipulating its DNA with ours and nurturing its growth and nurturing its trajectory, giving it, you know, every thousand years, popping by and being like, here's agriculture, here's irrigation, here's religion, and watch them grow, seed them. And if you had the ability to bounce around the universe at will, you'd probably do this to a billion planets. You probably actually wouldn't even be doing it yourself, because that'd be a giant waste of time. You'd have built some AI system doing it for you. And you probably need some type of tripwire in case they get a little trigger happy or in case they ascend and become, you know, this loving, intelligent being. You. You would probably need some type of sensor there that makes sure that the scales aren't being tilted. And so maybe you hide that in the ocean, maybe you hide these von Neumann probes in the ocean, and they're there to just regulate the growth and everything else. And now we find out we're just in a petri dish, that we're in some type of farm, and that we're very low on the totem pole. And I think that might be very terrifying to a lot of people. I think for me, it brings me great comfort that we have someone taking care of us, but others might feel the loss of agency there to be a little, perhaps disturbing.

[B]

I'm with you. If on that one that was the case, that wouldn't bother me. I'd be like, okay, yeah, okay. It's such a long time that it's not going to affect me or my children, my grandkids. And it's been happening anyway. We've got this far. We just kind of know that's what's going on now. We've got access to the instruction manual as such, and can I know what's happening next? So, yeah, that wouldn't. That wouldn't bother me at all. I think you may be onto something with the idea of, you know, the whole life after death and what is a soul and does it. Does it. The argument around religion would be destroyed. I think it's really old hat now. But if it destroyed someone's own religious perspective, that could be really sombering for them, really upset them, make them cry to tell me there's no God, capital G. And it was one of a race or an entity or whatever. Yeah, cool. Sounds more plausible than magic man in the sky clicks fingers and here's the Earth in seven days. So that would make sense to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good answer. Pugix. I hope I'm pronouncing that properly. Said you briefly discussed with Jason Sands the frightening possibility that beings who appear human but are more advanced than ordinary humans could be living among us or influencing events behind the scenes. What do you honestly make of that theory? And I wonder, is that kind of building on what you've just said there, Chris?

[A]

Yeah, I didn't speak with Jason Sands. I've never spoken to him in my life. But I can still.

[B]

I wonder if they've said that to me then.

[A]

To you, probably. Yeah. Well, how would you answer that?

[B]

It's quite similar to what you've. You've kind of said there in a sense, then, that I've literally got a listener question for me now in a conversation with you, Chris. Apologies. So could be living among us or influencing events behind the scenes. Yeah. The worst movie of. One of the worst movies I've ever seen in my life is the Eternals, the Marvel movie, however awful. God awful in so many different ways. But the idea of having these supreme entities, almost godlike, who are there through civilizations, like you say, now and again, they interfere. Now and again they give you a nudge in the right direction. Perhaps they favor some civilizations over another to allow them to prosper and grow. And then you've got the whole Bigelow thing of they literally are walk amongst us, you know, comment. I don't know. There Was. You were on the. You were at Contact in the desert. And we were both on the same show with the night shift Dummer Friday guys where they mentioned. Oh, no, I wasn't on that one. You were. I was watching it. Where they mentioned meeting some Nordic woman at Contact. I struggle with that. Yeah. Personally, I don't know how much if we have an advanced species or advanced human walking amongst us, that they attend Contact in the desert or that they rock up to watch Disclosure Day at the imax. Do you subscribe to that element of that theory?

[A]

No, not particularly, but I do enjoy the idea. Like, I hear a lot of stories of people who come to me and tell me about their encounter with such beings, but way different than my encounter that I had at the. That you're referring to. That was a person who claimed to be a hybrid. But the people, like the tall blondes, I've heard time and time again these tales of literally no one else can see them, and they're like 8ft tall and they're talking to them in their head, and they're often surprised that the person can even see them or hear them. This comes up over and over and over and over, and it comes up and it's brought to my attention by people who have names, who have phone numbers, who have jobs, who. Who do not want to go public. And that says a lot for me. Like, that raises my conviction level on it. When you come to me and I get to look into your eyes and you get to tell me the story that changed your life, but you want no part of telling this publicly. You do not want your employer to know. You do not want your. Sometimes even your own wife to know. But it was imperative that they had to tell me because this is something that happened to them. And now I've been speaking about it and they know that, you know, this might help piece. Piece it together, but they're like, yeah, I'd rather suppress it and I'd rather just go on with my life. And so I hear those stories and that does raise my conviction. I, you know, I have a hard time reconciling that and just being like, oh, it's impossible. You know, it does definitely throw a wrench into, you know, the whole. I mean, it does it. I don't know. I want it to be real. For sure. I am biased, I am partial. But, yeah, I suppose if I were to say from 0 to 100, where I'm at with it, maybe like 35, 40%, which is pretty high, not quite over the 50 mark yet though.

[B]

But yeah, of all the people you've spoken to, you know, you're looking at your Travis Walton's Bob Lazars. You know, take a peck of the UFO topic over the last. I've got your channel up to my left hand side. Over the last how many years you've spoken to pretty much everyone you would want to. I'm sure you've got a few more on your bucket list. Who has been the most convincing for you that even as someone with that low conviction, you've, you've heard them speak and no matter what they've said, you've been like this, this could be genuine, this could be true.

[A]

Mario Woods.

[B]

Okay, do you want to just recap Mario story? I've not spoken to Mario, but I know of him.

[A]

Yeah, 1977, I believe. Ellsworth Air Force Base. He was a sergeant in, he was like Air Force police working at one of these nuclear sites where they housed ICBMs. And he would basically him and his partner, Michael Johnson would have to patrol these different, various nuclear sites along with so many other people. That's what they did. They just, you know, and he's on a, something called the prp, the Personal Reliability Program, which makes sure that like if you take any meds or if you're depressed or if you anything at all, you have to report it because you have to be absolutely of sound mind to be guarding nuclear missiles. That is just part of the job. So these people are without a doubt the finest, most capable people that you could produce. Right? That's the, that's the whole plan. You're not going to have somebody who's unstable guarding nukes. So they're constantly tested, vetted and all this, all of this. He ends up patrolling with his partner and they see this giant sphere hovering above one of these nuclear silos. Now these things are out in the middle of nowhere in the desert, right? It takes, you know, miles to get there and then they're there. And this thing is the size of what he claimed was a Super Walmart, which is like a massive grocery store, is huge, huge roiling orb like the sun hovering 10ft over this thing. He's in his car and they're frozen here. And the driver, Michael Johnson, is just holding the steering wheel. His eyes are wide open, he can't move. And all of a sudden they feel like this pressure, like the air is leaving their lungs and this blinding light, they start lifting. It's very strange. And he gets this smell, this overwhelming smell of like ammonia and Sulfur. And all of a sudden he looks to and he hears in his body, do not fear. Do not fear. Do not fear. Like this resonating sound in his body saying this. And he looks over and he sees a couple small beings and like a taller one, gray type beings and passes out, wakes up eight miles away in the car, in the truck. His partner still holding the steering wheel, no recollection. They're radioing him, where are you? Where are you? He's, I don't know. I need, I need emergency here for my partner. This is in December, so there are no December. There's. There's a little bit of snow, a little bit of frost, like in the desert. And no, no tracks, no tire tracks leading to where the car is. The car is just there. And they radio in and then they take him away and separate the two. Debrief him for like 10 hours, of which Rick Doty was a part of that debriefing in 77, which is very interesting. He was in that room as like a junior OSI agent with his superior. And they do all sorts of weird tests to him and you know, get him to write his testimony down over and over and over. And eventually Mario gets regressed and starts remembering a lot of what went on on board. And one of the details I think is like the wildest detail for me is Michael Johnson eventually shows up to his house and knocks at door. They get to talking and Michael says, I don't remember the beings, but all I remember is your glove laying on the shiny floor. And that detail. I was like, holy cow. Like that paints a picture. What shiny floor? Obviously like some spaceship or whatever. And yeah, his story, when you listen to him talk, he's 71 and he is sharp as attack. Just very, very heart centered, fun to listen to, but also so profound. And that interview, that conversation for me was I'm very high conviction on that. I would say that. And although I didn't interview them, I would say the witnesses of the Virginia case, I would say those. Those are like two where like my conviction is like through the roof that that happened.

[B]

A lot of people got in touch for this one. So I'm not going to attribute it to one listener. Essentially, now that you've met and spoken with Bob Lazar and Travis Walton, can you give an assessment of both of them and their stories and how you feel perhaps before you met them and after?

[A]

Yeah, Bob, I was always partial to because of, you know, just him being such a huge part of why I got into this topic as well. Meeting him off camera, though, and talking to him, showing him things. I think I've mentioned this before, but, like, I talked to him about the underwater MCU stuff because they'd mentioned Baba Czar in that document. In that document mentioned. Mentioned 115, they mentioned Babazar. And I said, have you ever heard of this? This is off camera. It's just me and him right here in the office. And. And he goes, no, I never heard of that. You know, And I said, yeah, they mentioned. He goes, what do they say? And I regret telling him this, because even then I was like, why did I say this weird thing to tell him? But nonetheless, I said, you know, at one point your name's mentioned because he's told that if your name is ever mentioned, they take you out back and they put you down like a dog. And Bob lost his footing. I was. It was just me and him. And he, like, stumbled back, held onto my desk and literally went, jesus Christ. Oh, shit. And you saw the fear, like a palpable, real fear in this man that, like, oh, this isn't over. Like, your name still invokes that type of reaction, meaning, like, you're still not safe, potentially. Like, there's, like, it. It scared him. I could tell. And that was a real. For me, On a personal level, that was like, oh, shit. This isn't just a story to him. To me, this is. Oh, this is larp. This is suspender disbelief, whatever. Yeah, not to this guy. That's very real. And that. So that raised my conviction about Bob. That interaction I had with him really changed how I saw everything. And I was like, oh, I gotta be. I gotta be careful of how I talk about this stuff with him. This is very real to him. With Travis, I. My conviction. I don't know. I feel like I was always convinced that he had some deep sort of. I think I believe he does have, like, a traumatic experience. My father, who passed last year, he was. He was a veteran of the Canadian military, and he was at war plenty of times. He had ptsd. I lived with it my whole life, seeing it, so I could recognize certain symptoms in a man when he recalls things or when he tries to avoid recalling things or when he wants to change a subject or whatever. And I saw that with his previous interviews. Now, when I interviewed him, I had a hard time because he doesn't look at you in the eye when he talks about a story. And there could be two reasons for that. One could be because he's recalling this very traumatic event that he doesn't that he's kind of living in the moment, in the present moment, looking away or two, he wants to avoid eye contact out of some guilt or shame. And for what, I don't know. But essentially those two things would behave similarly. And so that's the only thing that I can say about that. Was that like it did. It gave me a slight pause, but to what end? I don't know.

[B]

One final listener question. Again, this one came in from a lot of folks and you touched on it earlier and I didn't follow up because so many folks had asked. But can you go into some more details about your out of body experiences? What you felt, how they were, and is it something that you've continued to pursue and practice first?

[A]

No, I haven't. I've still been meditating, but I haven't really been trying to get out of body, as weird as that sounds. And I don't know that being out of body is exactly what it is. Like that's the other thing too. It's like we have this misnomer of like it's out of body experience because that's what it looks like you're experiencing. But also like when you're out of body, you're. It's not your room, right? Everything is like 80% the same. It's not quite the same. And Robert Monroe talks about this and everybody who has the experience will acknowledge that. So it's almost like a recreation that your mind makes of what the room should look like. So although it does feel like you're separate and you do see yourself, is that really you? Are you really separate? Is this not just your consciousness being projected somewhere simultaneously? Are you bilocating? I don't know. Right. We don't have the answers to these things. So out of body, I think is a. Is a term that we use a little flippantly because I'm not convinced that that's what's happening. However, I am convinced that it is objectively different than a lucid dream. I have had lucid dreams plenty and often use lucid dreams to get into an out of body experience. And that experience is different, objectively different from a vivid dream and different also from a waking state. So it is this other sort of liminal in between state that you find yourself in that has a physical ness to it through this vibration, this sense of this vibratory sort of thrumming in your body, almost like you were a tuning fork getting slapped, right? It's like this heavy humor. There's a visual distortion. You can feel at times, or at least the illusion of feeling. And you, and you, you are lucid. You are lucid during this, during this, this event. Like, you're, you're cognizant that you are not part of a dream. You're like, oh my God, this is happening. I can't believe this is happening right now. And when that happened to me, the last time was during a waking meditation. And that's where I really went, oh my God, this is, this is happening. Every other time was like in the middle of the night, right? So the next day you're like, did that really happen? Like, you know, you kind of convince yourself it didn't. But when the sh. The sun's shining in your room, you have a meditation. You put the headphones down and this second you hit your, your head on the pillow. Like, there's no clicking out, there's no passing out. It's like I'm here, I'm lucid, and then I start vibrating and I get out of my body and I'm like, oh my God, I was just awake three seconds ago. Like, there's no time between me being awake and now. So. And now I'm out of my body and walking around my room and looking at my body and terrified and being like, this is actually happening and the sun's shining. And. And so at that point, that really nudged me over the edge with like, okay, there's something here that I'm experiencing that is brand new. But the reason I haven't been pursuing it, I guess would be a lot of people describe that state to be similar to the one they feel when they die. The out of body experience is often brought up by near death experiencers to being similar. And so now that might not be what happens when you die. It might be transitional, it might be something. But it seems like this is the same phenomenon that we're experiencing when we die or when we almost die. And so I'm kind of like, of the mind of like, what's the hurry, right? If that is what happens, right? And I have experienced it, great, awesome. I'm going to do it again when I die. Why practice dying right now? Like, you know, if there is such thing as a soul and if there is such thing as incarnation or whatever, if that is a thing, then we gave that up for this somehow at some stage, right? We gave up eternal, whatever, bliss, manifestation. All this is loving whatever light. We gave all that up to like live in the mud here and in the trenches, right? Why there have. This has to mean something. Then it has to be way more important than whatever that is. And if this is just transient, like, enjoy. Enjoy the body, dude. Enjoy the fun. Enjoy the meals, the air, you know, and stop. If you. Once you've had that confirmation, I would say, what's the point? Why, why would you, you know, why would you want to die so early all the time? Just, it'll happen, I promise. You know, you're gonna feel it again. But enjoy life.

[B]

That's probably a nice, nice place to begin to wrap up, Chris and I want to give you the opportunity just before we go. You've got your tour. It's probably nothing. And there are tickets available for cities where I know people are listening to and watching this right now in the very near future. So do you want to let folks know how they can get those?

[A]

Yep, thanks. It's probably nothing.com for tickets. I think the VIP tickets are all pretty much sold out, but there are still plenty of tickets available for a lot of the cities. We are doing Tucson, Portland, Seattle, Louisiana, San Francisco and Vancouver, Canada. So if you want.

[B]

It's probably nothing.com Wednesday UK version of

[A]

the tour we're going. So that's the next one I want to plan out. I do want to do east coast stuff as well, just because, like we had to cancel a whole bunch of shows and I really feel bad. I want to do some east coast shows, but I would love to do at least one UK show if, you know, if not a couple, but at least one so that people can, you know, maybe fly in and see the show and then do one show in sort of Australia. That would be fun too, because I know that there's like a. Obviously a really big audience that, you know, isn't being catered to. And I want to, I want to go out and meet all those people as well.

[B]

No lesson UK show. Go back and do like a. We'll do a mega show. I'll get involved with you if you'd like.

[A]

Yeah, I would love that.

[B]

Because the UK does get starved at this kind of stuff and it'd always be nice to meet folks and stuff like that as well. So let's go for a 10,000 seater crest and sell it out. Why not?

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah. All right.

[B]

But no, that, that would be good. But listen, folks, yeah, definitely pick up your tickets if you're in those areas. And I think the main thing for me is what you said earlier, Chris. It's a rare chance to be in a room away from a conference setting and it's like Hanging out with friends that you don't really know yet. They're involved in the same stuff as you, they like the same stuff as you. The conversations that you don't really have anywhere other than discord channels, social media, dms. You can have face to face with folks and meet some new people and you'll probably meet some folks and go, shit, I've been talking to you for years on X or social media or I know you're from the YouTube comment section and it's places like this there aren't many of to do that. So yeah, if it was over here in the uk, I'd be buying a ticket. It's a little bit rich for me to get to the US right now.

[A]

Yeah, no worries. But as soon as I am in the uk, I will let you know, Andy. And if you're ever stateside, please let me know as well. I'd love to, you know, make something happen. Try to get you up here to the studio as well.

[B]

Awesome. Cool stuff, Chris, Great to speak to you. Thank you to everyone who got in touch and hopefully I can persuade Chris to come back on again sometimes and get through some more of those questions. But what's coming up next for you on your channel, Chris?

[A]

A few, I got a few interviews coming out. I got one coming out. Well, one that's probably out by the time you watch this with Sean Neubauer. We got Jason Quit, who's a researcher, but also Julia Mossbridge and Richard Doty.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Yeah, very interesting. Yeah, yeah. So that's a whole other rabbit hole.

[B]

Yeah, look forward to that. Chris, good speaking with you man and thanks very much.

[A]

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