The UAP Legacy Program Fallout: Elizondo, Gerb, Coulthart & Controlled Disclosure

Summary

That UFO Podcast: The UAP Legacy Program Fallout

Episode Title: The UAP Legacy Program Fallout: Elizondo, Gerb, Coulthart & Controlled Disclosure
Host: Andy McGrillen
Guest: Pavel (Secoactivo Podcast)
Release Date: June 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this joint live episode, Andy (That UFO Podcast) and Pavel (Secoactivo Podcast) dissect the explosive fallout and swirling controversies in the UFO/UAP disclosure world, centered on recent allegations and maneuvers involving Lou Elizondo (former AATIP head), UAP researcher and filmmaker Gerb, and journalist Ross Coulthart. The discussion unfolds after major public claims about Elizondo’s alleged deeper involvement in a "legacy" crash retrieval program and raises questions about narrative control, trust, and the future path of disclosure. The hosts dig into the controlled disclosure debate, the polarizing camps, whistleblower fears, and the broader cultural dynamics underlying this public ufology drama.

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Main Discussion Points & Key Insights

1. The Recent Fallout: Allegations Against Lou Elizondo

• Key Event: Both Ross Coulthart and Gerb have publicly accused Lou Elizondo of not being fully transparent about his background and role in the UAP “Legacy” crash-retrieval program. Some suggest he should not lead public facing UAP efforts.
  • Andy: "Ross seems to have an issue with perhaps Lou's background not being completely forthcoming... we're going to discuss what that means." (03:16)
• Division in Community: Gerb is openly critical, while Coulthart’s stance is more nuanced, suggesting Elizondo was “used” for narrative management by intelligence interests.
  • Pavel: "Ross Coltheart said about Lou being part of the narrative control... if there is a narrative control operation... you would have a major print on social media." (04:14)
• Online Infighting: Much of the conflict is seen to play out via doxing, character assassination, and orchestrated online drama, possibly as a form of narrative management.

2. Phases of Elizondo’s Public Persona

• Early Openness: Elizondo initially did multiple podcasts post-To The Stars Academy, was highly accessible, freely shared information—helping boost the topic’s visibility.
  • Andy: "Lou was on everyone's podcast... all this information, it was flying out... very interesting stuff." (07:46)
• Transition to Secrecy: As his book and documentary projects progressed, Elizondo withdrew, re-emerging with higher-profile, more curated appearances.
• Controversy Over Achievements: Alleged embellishments of his role in AATIP and the gray zone of his official duties have caused tension—especially with others like Jay Stratton’s camp.

3. Controlled Disclosure vs. Full Transparency

• Controlled Disclosure Fears: Many suspect there’s an orchestrated plan to drip-feed information carefully (per Clapper/Brennan era intel policies), keeping major truths hidden. Elizondo is speculated to be the “frontman.”
  • Ross Coulthart on NewsNation (Clip):

    “I think there was an intention by General James Clapper to try and impose a narrative on the public domain using Lou as a frontman... to try to restrict what the public was told about Crash retrievals.” (34:58)

• The Grusch Factor: David Grusch’s emergence as a whistleblower is seen by some as having “wrong footed” efforts at a slow, managed disclosure.
  • Pavel: “The only one who has been really talking about crashes and bodies... is really David Grush.” (21:13)
  • Coulthart: “[Grusch] really wrong footed all of this... all of a sudden David comes up and says... There is a crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. And I'm saying it's real.” (34:58)
• Trust and Whistleblowers: There’s deep anxiety that some whistleblowers would not come forward if Elizondo (linked to status-quo, intel apparatus) became the official UAP “czar.”
  • Andy: “Gerb... says there are whistleblowers who do not want to come forward and speak to him [Elizondo].” (48:59)
  • Pavel: “It is alarming that... there are people who are actively not doing anything about it [the problem], and I want to know why.” (50:09)

4. Community Fragmentation and Personality Politics

• Factions Emerging: The UFO/UAP discourse is visibly fracturing—Greer camp, Elizondo camp, Grusch camp, etc.
• The Dangers of Parachuting Trust: Social media proximity to key players can create unhealthy partisanship and cult-like defense, making honest discourse harder.
  • Andy: “You have a feeling of I trust them, I know them... you kind of feel like you become a part of that and you have to back them up... It’s just rotating parts depending on what’s happening.” (18:28)

5. Larger Philosophical Questions

• National Security vs. Right to Know: There’s a recurring debate: What does true disclosure look like, and where is the line between necessary secrecy for security and the public’s right to “we are not alone”?
  • Andy: “[That] the fact we are not alone, we are being visited, we have had contact. That's a bare minimum that people should be getting... for every citizen of the world to know.” (26:24)
• Potential for International Disclosure “Chicken”: If crash-retrieval knowledge is real, multiple nations may have it. A dangerous game of waiting for someone else to break the silence is possible.
  • Pavel: “They don't want to be the first ones to like show their cards.” (28:21)

6. Amnesty & Accountability

• Case-by-case Amnesty: Some support individual amnesty for whistleblowers, but only after scrutinizing those current or recent crimes (“not an Oprah-style ‘everyone gets amnesty’”).
  • Pavel: “We need to go on a case by case basis, especially with people who did commit crimes... if they target like specific people... I'm all for it." (67:22)
• Complexity in Uncovering Truth: You can’t find out what needs amnesty without the account, but people won’t come forward without it.
  • Andy: “You're not going to get to know that unless you sign these people a complete get a jail free card.” (69:13)

7. Upcoming Legislation and the Political Phase

• Disclosure Act Moves: The reintroduction of the UAP Disclosure Act, now with an aim to publicly “out” legislators who vote against it. Whether this tactic will yield more transparency is uncertain.
  • Andy: “They're going to use this almost as bait to see who votes against it… How is that for you going to land?” (96:27)
  • Pavel: “It's a good tactic just to know who's who, I guess, but I don't think it can really do anything to change things.” (97:40)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Narrative Management Allegation:

  • Ross Coulthart: “There are people who... don't think it's a good idea that Lou be appointed to a position of power in UAP transparency because they think that he was part of a previous agenda... to try to control the narrative, to restrict what the public is entitled to know about UAP disclosure.” (34:58)

• Controlled Disclosure in Action:

  • Pavel: "He does represent that. It came out with Gerb’s work and now with Ross saying this, it came out that he does represent that [counter-narrative aspect]." (41:39)

• Collective Uncertainty & Community Fatigue:

  • Andy: “Disclosure has been messy of recent and I don’t think it’s going to get any cleaner anytime soon.” (107:30)

• Signs of Fatigue with Social Media Discourse:

  • Andy: “I try to stay away from a lot of that... I just can't be fecked, to use an Irish word, with the hassle and the online drama.” (43:21)

• The Transparency Test:

  • Andy (summarizing Gerb): “If Lou Elizondo is made the UAP czar... There are people who do not want to come forward and speak to him.” (48:59)
  • Pavel: “That is alarming... There are people within the disclosure movement who are actively not doing anything about it. They know and they're allowing it to happen.” (50:09)

• Discussing Disclosure Evidence:

  • Pavel: “Let's say Grush does have access to... photographs... If he got access to one picture, that would be it, right?” (93:17)
  • Andy: “One caveat though. They have to be able to get access to the body though, to then show eventually too.” (93:55)

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Important Timestamps

• [03:16] - The core allegations and the legacy program controversy
• [04:14] - Social media as a battleground for narrative control
• [07:46] - History of Elizondo’s public presence and shifting roles
• [21:13] - Who is talking crashes and bodies… and who isn’t
• [34:58] - (CLIP) Ross Coulthart on NewsNation describing Lou Elizondo’s alleged controlled disclosure role
• [48:59] - Debate on whether whistleblowers trust Elizondo’s leadership
• [66:22] - Amnesty: who deserves it, and how could it work?
• [91:40] - Would a closed-door meeting of all the main figures lead to real public disclosure?
• [96:27] - What does publicly outing UAP Disclosure Act opponents achieve?
• [104:00] - Upcoming guests and collaborative spirit in the podcast community

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Reflections & Tone

Throughout the episode, the hosts maintain a candid but measured tone—calling out the toxicity and performative aspects of the online UFO world while striving for critical but fair analysis of major figures. They occasionally inject humor (and British/Irish self-deprecation) to diffuse tension (“I just can't be fecked...with the online drama”). The hosts appeal for more cooperation, transparency, and honest disagreement, while expressing real concern about the psychological toll and manipulation possible in a community chasing elusive truths.

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Takeaways for Newcomers

• The UAP/UFO “disclosure” movement is currently roiled by allegations of narrative control, with Lou Elizondo’s suitability as a public disclosure leader under fire.
• There are significant philosophical divides in the community: controlled, “safe” disclosure (“for national security”) vs. radical transparency/whistleblower-style truth-telling.
• Personality-driven divisions (Grush v. Elizondo v. Mellon v. Greer, etc.) are deepening. The “cult of personality” problem is real, as is online toxicity.
• Current political moves (Disclosure Act, possible “czar” appointment, draft executive orders) may shape the next era—either as genuine progress or another layer of managed disclosure.
• Whistleblower protection and targeted amnesty are urgent and complicated issues still being debated.
• Despite polarization, some voices are urging collaboration, critical thinking, and respect for a diversity of perspectives moving forward.

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Resources & Upcoming Events

• Check out: That UFO Podcast, Secoactivo Podcast (Pavel)
• Upcoming guests teased: Jonathan Kaplan, Chris Ramsay, Michael Shermer, Peter Lavenda (Pavel), and others.
• Expect updates on the fate of the UAP Disclosure Act and potential executive orders in coming weeks.

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“Listen to everyone’s opinion, but make up your own mind.”
(Andy, 106:34)

Transcript

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[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Hi everyone and welcome back to that UFO podcast. As always, my name is Andy and joining me for a special live to look at some pretty big news and a major discussion point. I have the one and only Pavel from the secoactivo podcast. Pavel, welcome mate.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Hello Andy. How you doing man? Thank you for having me. We're doing joint live stream today but thank you for having me. It was your turn I think we can do one on one, right?

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, yeah. 100. Yeah. And hi everyone over in Pavel's channel, who is watching as well? Pavel, big news. We're going to discuss a few things, I'm sure, but what in the last 24 to 40 hours we've had, correct me if I'm wrong, Ross Coultar and UAP Gerb have both come out and basically pointed fingers at Lou Elizondo and said, you were in the Legacy program. You've not been honest about your background. You need to come forward. Gerb has some issues, clearly, with Elondo on the whole, including what his personal appointment as this u may mean. We'll get into that. Kart's been a lot friendlier with Lou as an individual, and he says as much. But Ross seems to have an issue with perhaps Lou's background not being completely forthcoming. And all of that is kicking off and we're going to discuss what that means. Mate, what's your take on things kind of high level?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Well, I think Ross also sort of alluded to it in that same Q and A because. And I've been talking about this a little bit too, because I've been trying to analyze what David Grush's inclusion in this whole situation did. It had a very different effect to what people from the to the Stars Academy were thinking when they started all that they were not expecting David Grush. And I think that sent everything into an entirely different atmosphere. Division started to happen, and that's for me, what lies at the very center. Because, you know, when I got in this space, I. I try to do it anonymously so I could look at everybody who was part of the game. I started looking at you, James and Dolly, also Lou, but also everything that was going on on places like X, for example. And I know that I've been trying to avoid it, and I know that there's a lot of drama there, a lot of infighting there. But if you look at it from a more objective perspective and tying it up to what Ross Coltheart said about Lou being part of the narrative control of the topic as a counterintelligence guy, then you look at what's happening on places like X, where there's a lot of doxing, harassing, character assassinating, all this stuff, and you understand a little more that it is part of that. It's not that it's drama, it's that there's a possibility that it is also manufactured to be that way. And it got really weird whenever there was like a group of people trying to Defend Lou. It got like weirdly prepared. It felt like it didn't feel organic. And I always looked at that and I was like, this doesn't feel normal. Because there's just like, I know that there's a few that probably are not part of that, but I think that if there is a narrative control operation on the UFO community, you would start or have a major print on social media, I would say. And I've seen it happening for at least three years. It's been happening. And now that Ross came out to say specifically this, it just ties in together very nicely. And I'm not saying that Lou is completely responsible for that. I'm saying that Lou is part of an apparatus that is doing that, you know, and to, to. And it's the same thing that, like what happened back in the 80s with, you know, Benowitz and Rick Doty and all that stuff. It's very similar to that. And I was just looking from the, from the sidelines. I understand that people defend Lou and they don't think that he's part of that, but the fact that it's happening in front of people's eyes and nobody from that camp really seems to care that it's happening, that really, you know, it made me understand that the UFO community is not the nice place that I thought it was when I first got in here, man.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

So, yeah, you mentioned the last three years. Let me take it back a bit further from, from my perspective and starting the podcast. And I, I wore my to the stars hoodie for this very special occasion. My hoodie that only has now one rope on one side of it. So yeah, I tuck that in there. Listen, I started the podcast June 2020. We had two of the stars Academy Public. They had released the three videos through their organization. I know one had been online. Let's keep it relatively high level. Elizondo was the name that people were like, this guy worked in the UFO program for the US government before people were throwing around ATAP and OS app. Really, everyone knows those terms now. He was the UFO guy from the US government and he still wasn't incredibly public. And then a few months after I started the podcast, Elizondo became available on the kind of podcast circuit. And to his credit and listen, I see some comments and I've seen these online too. This is not a character assassination of Elizondo, Coulter, Gerb or anyone. This is just trying to work out what's happening and changing right now because I feel there is a massive change and the status quo of the UFO topic right now, and that's what I'm going to try and think through and talk through with you today, Pavel. So Lou made himself available on podcasts. And to his credit, this podcast, for example, was far smaller than. Than it is now. I've got more people watching live right now than used to download the podcast over a week, you know, when it first started, which is crazy. So Lou was on everyone's podcast. If you had 10 listeners, if you had a thousand or a hundred thousand, he was doing folks podcasts, all right, and we were getting all this information, it was flying out and it was really interesting stuff. And I remember his really early shows. I think John Greenwald got one of the first in the Black Vault. Ryan Sprague got a really early one. I got an early one. And he was apologizing on the beginning of those shows because he said the media requests weren't getting through to him at the time and he wanted to do stuff like that, but he wasn't finding out through folks working at to the Stars Academy anyway for a couple of years before you got involved. I'm not blaming you, Pavel, necessarily, but there was quite a UFO community and there was a bit of a sense of harmony, and folks did get on quite well. It was probably quite a fragile harmony just because of people's egos and narratives and agendas. And that's top to bottom, right, that that's all over the place. And I think that's never going to go away. And then I think everything built up to Elizondo's book coming out. And I suppose the. Once it was announced, I think there was a relatively quiet period for. From Lou Elizondo. And I think if you go back and listen to the shows I was doing at the time, I think I just expected that was he's got a literary agent now, he's got the potential movie deal that comes along with the book. We knew Dan Farah was in charge of all of that. He'll be back when the book's out. And that makes sense, right? That fair enough. I've got no issue with that. The book came out, Lou done his big book promotion and people tore through the book and picked it apart and looked at little different bits and pieces to try and find out bits of information and what the story was. He then went away again for a while, and in that time we saw him pop up now and again in the background with the. The hearings that were happening. We knew his involvement there. So it was like he's still heavily involved in this topic since then? No, his, his media appearances as such have been far more limited. He doesn't speak as often publicly or we also had the then the build to the Age of Disclosure and I almost feel we've gone through kind of phases of Lou's public Persona being a really open guy to doing all these shows. Then he goes away and stays far quieter, seems to be working on stuff in the background. We get the Age of Disclosure, which, let's be fair, I think largely seemed to focus on Elizondo as a main character. If a documentary like that can have a main character, he was very much the driving force behind it. And I think we'll probably talk about Grush quite a lot. But there was a big omission of a David Grush in that documentary. Bear in mind it was filmed over three years and we also hear Pavel in that time. There's fallouts online between some of Stratton's camp and his family and Elizondo due to people and I believe. And we discussed this on the Dummer Friday show, didn't we? There was people in Stratton's camp, I believe his wife made comments online, weren't happy with what Lou said his position was during the OSAP to ATAP era, that gray area in between. And the feeling was he had embellished from their side what he had done. So at that point, everyone's waiting on Stratton's book coming out, which we're now going to get in a couple of months. And that me or may not shed some light. And I think it's probably framed in a whole new light now given the news we're going to be talking about. So I feel we've gone through stages of, of Elizondo working with ttsa, him coming out publicly and being so available for people. And I can't ever, you know, not say thank you for that. Let's be fair. And then writing the book, giving something for folks to talk about. But then it seems and I made the comment and I believe it was Harvey Dent 2face that said it, not Alfred. But you know, you either die the hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. And I don't know if that's what happened with Elizondo here or indeed as it is plain and simple that some folks think Pavel. And we're going to discuss all the options here, folks. So if you're in the chat, we'll try and get to some of the comments to share the breadth of opinions. But is it a case that Elizondo isn't quite who he said he was for good or for bad reasons.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

And.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

And there's something else going on here.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Well, for me, it's. It's because, you know, as I've been listening to other people's opinions on Lou, both in the background and publicly, I've had a number of people approach me as the channel has grown to try and plant stories for me to tell about Lou, both positive and negative. And when. When people approach me with negative things about Lou, it's almost always the same type of thing, that they think he's a fraud, that he is not who he said he was. And with this news, it seems like he's way more than what people thought he was, you know, and. And it's pretty, you know, pretty ironic to see that happening, because initially, when I saw the negativity surrounding him, honestly, there were moments when I thought maybe he is just probably trying to, you know, make a living or. Or, you know, not being truthful because of that. But then I started looking at Gerv's videos, and that's the reason why I got Gerb on my thumbnail and you have him on yours. He's been talking about this for months already, if not more. And the most recent videos that he did, where he lays out what he thinks age of disclosure was for, really, it just makes you see the entire thing in an entirely different light. And with Stratton being part of the dia, I just want to know, did Jane know about loose real involvement in this, or did he know, like, after a few years, did he recently find out? Because I. I was reporting on this when it happened, and then it went away a little bit. There were signs that there was some sort of a legal or the beginnings of a legal battle between Dan Farah and Lou. And there is, according to the information that I have, there is a record where something was filed. And then my understanding is that it didn't even reach, like, a stage where there was going to be some kind of trial or anything. They apparently settled in some way and nobody was to speak of it ever again. And whenever I asked the lawyers involved in that, after I think the settlement happened, they just gave me the same prepared answer like a lawyer would, you know, and it was pretty, pretty clear what had happened. So. And there's more stories like that of disagreements, of mishaps that Lou or people adjacent to Lou have had with others, but always with Lou at the. At the center of it. And that's. That's what caught my attention. And probably one of the reasons why I. I'm very careful when I try to report stuff about Lou because I've seen the reaction from a certain part of loose environment that it's. It's very telling, you know, and. And now with this new information, kind of makes a little more sense to me.

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[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

yeah, I've been accused of. I mean, it was back in the day, right? Enough years ago. Now I was accused of being part of that group. I've always tried to keep myself to myself in this topic and is there a danger. Pavel, let's keep this really even before we go into the detail. Because of social media, as individuals, we feel so connected not only to each other, but to celebrities, to government officials, to politicians, to influencers. Because they're right there in front of you. You can see what they say. You can see what they think 24 7. Or you can see what they want you to see them saying before I start getting tongue tied. And you can light, you can interact. You can get the President of the United States interacting with you. Brad Pitt can drop into your DMs, you know, Sydney Sweeney, if she's free, can drop any mine, right? These really. I wish these really famous people, right, are just there. So when it comes to any topic, say UFOs, you've got all of these major names and players potentially running legacy programs who have been in touch with biologics the stuff of lore and math. These people are now right in front of you, people like me. And you have been fortunate to speak to many of these people. So is it a danger for all of us? And I include me, you and this and anyone. And this is generally speaking that you feel so familiar with these people that you think you know them. And this includes even like a David Grush or an Elizondo or a good girl or a Chris Mellon. Insert a another here you have a feeling of I trust them, I know them because I see not only their comments, but then you get involved in the algorithm, picking up your tribe and everything that comes with that. So you see more and more affirmation of these people, agree with what this guy or this woman says. It's what I think. And you kind of feel like you become a part of that and you have to back them up. Another this huge cult of personality that comes along with it. And I wonder, is that what happens here where we now have all of these different factions of the Greer camp, the Elizondo camp, now the Grush camp? And it's just almost rotating parts depending on what's happening. Like I say we're going to get into it, but I feel we're in these last couple of weeks, particularly whatever's happening with the COVID up or disclosure or the progress or lack thereof, we're moving into a new phase of it and I don't know whether that's good, bad or whatever yet.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, for me, a good measuring way that I have, especially when I try to approach people who are involved in this. The ones that I think I get along with only I would say out of like the whistleblowers are probably the ones that I see that are being mistreated the most and ignored. And let me give you a good example. John Burroughs from the Randall Sham Forest case, he's been ignored by pretty much everybody from, you know, the quote unquote big weeks. They all spoke to him, they all know his place in history within the ufo, whole topic and all that, but most of them and, and the story that he has to tell has been ignored. And, and those are the ones that I'm like, wait, so if he's talking about this, why, why are people not even wanting to react to what he has to say? The same thing goes for Dylan Borland because Dylan did not go through doer and he's, he's constantly being harassed and doxed and his wife was doxed. So those are the people that I tend to lean towards the Most because they're the ones that are ostracized. And that gives me a good indication of how, you know, credible they are in, in those terms. And when I see somebody, for example, like Lou or Jake Barber, who are doing really well, they've never been really in, in any sort of danger like that. Or, you know, when I see those guys, it's like, yeah, okay, so I know that you were probably trying to do the right thing, but you're also playing by the rules. And I think that the main problem here in this whole thing, I think, has to do with a change of paradigm and what constitutes national security and what doesn't and what constitutes our right to know something and what doesn't as humans. And I think that's in the middle of this entire thing, and that's where the struggle is right now. You say you talk about camps. Yeah. But, you know, the only one who has been really talking about crashes and bodies and all that is really David Grush and the people who have been working alongside him. But you've noticed this. There's been people from the, the quote, unquote, control disclosure movement that are not even like, mentioning crashes anymore. And they're like sort of veering away from that stuff. And that is, I think, significant and also an indication of where to look, I would say. How do you feel, though?

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

I'm going to go over how I feel as we go on this. Right. Let's, let's talk through some of the stuff that happened on the, the shows to get into it a little bit more. So Ross Kart's Reality Check, he's in Washington just now because of the Disclos forum event that happened a few days ago. I wonder, we discussed this last week on the Dumer show if your thoughts at all changed on the Disclosure Forum event a few days on or since. I've heard a few people now speak about it and what it was for, what it wasn't for. I just wonder, is your take changed on that first?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Well, my take on, on, especially after Ross's news dropped, I think that they probably knew that that was going to probably happen and yet they still did that award thing, you know. But I did go through Dr. Hal put off's conversation and I did go through everything that happened with Vanguard and Matthew Brown, and I did appreciate that from, from the Disclosure foundation. And I, I also appreciate that they're talking about the financial aspect of it, but I disagree in, in terms of. I don't think that. I think that these people, many of these people are trying to not change the status quo. And I think that's problematic because I do think that there needs to be a change in status quo and in the order of things. And they're not even acknowledging or, or entertaining the idea that this civilization needs like a rapid sort of, yeah, quick turnaround if we want to remain here for a little bit longer. And, and that's something that I, I'm always weary of. Whoever is not paying attention to the urgent matters and tying them with whatever the topic is, I think is not working towards really knowing the truth. And I think also to go back to Grush, I think Rush does want everything out while also protecting national security. I do think. But there are things that just like he, he, as many of us think, should not be secret.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, I think the sources and methods stuff I get, I don't particularly care, but I understand. But to Grush's point, the science of the universe, just the fact we are not alone, we are being visited, we have had contact. That's a bare minimum that people should be getting. And never mind the American public and the American taxpayer, that's for every citizen of the world to know. We're not alone in this universe, in this galaxy, in the solar system, maybe on this planet. And then we can go from there around crashed vehicles and all the stuff that will come along with it. Just that line that we are not alone, I think is the bare minimum. There's no, there's no national security there to, to cover up at all. Ross on, on that very show did say that Trump is deadly serious about the UEP topic and at least the disclosure of something he doesn't believe. They're going to talk about crash retrieval program details. I'm not expecting that either at any point. I don't think any disclosure would involve them coming out and saying, right, we're going to start doing tours of Area 51. Who wants to come and see the craft? Because that would be crazy. I can't remember. It was some time ago, one of the podcasts I done and the guest made the point that, can you imagine, the US came out and said, so we have a craft of non human origin. We can do X, Y and Z with it. And this is where it is. What's to stop China invading the US or attempting to invade or Russia attempting to invade at that point, because there's a craft.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

If this is true, and let's say that what was proposed in the age of disclosure is also true, that means that the crashes have been happening all around the world and both China and Russia also had access to some of that. Right.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Potentially, yeah.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

If that's true. If that's true. That's what, that's what I, we, we said a little bit like they're kind of playing disclosure chicken. If this is true. They don't want to be the first ones to like show their cards if this is true. I think that's what's going on. And I don't think that. I think that's the only issue really. But because I, I think that other countries, if this is true, may already be advanced in different parts of the reverse engineering, so to speak, of the tech. Right.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

You know, I go back and forward on this idea, Pavel. Right. That they've all got multiple hangars with multiple variations of craft and tech. And they all know, you know, it's the. I know, you know, I know, you know, I know. And they're all just holding their cards, looking over each other, over the table. It just seems like I don't. In one hand we hear it's a race for the tech, but then other folks say they've all got the tech, so. So where is it? And then you could use. And there's so many different reasons for this. But then why are they still waging war? Russia and Ukraine? Why go in there and make the mess of it? You are. When you allegedly have this incredible technology.

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

Yeah.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

It makes a lot of sense and it goes like it can go in a conversation that has a lot to do with probably religion and all that stuff, you know, like, and I don't know how much the whole religious crowd is in on that. This, this is real, you know, and especially for example, the, the, the Israeli government, for example, or the Catholic Church. I don't know how much they really know or if, or if they know at all. You know, for all we know, the secret could be much weirder than we. Than we anticipated it. For all we know, it doesn't really have to do with craft, but with something else entirely. And that's why people in the government keep saying interdimensional. We don't know really until something is at least announced, somebody does give in to the game of chicken, you know,

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

So on, on that show, then the reason we are really here talking. Right. And I appreciate we're trying to keep up with everyone's comments. Huge number of people watching this live across both platforms. So. So thank you. And if you are enjoying it on Pavel show, on my show, leave a like and listen. I always say that's Pavel, but there Are children out there making millions of dollars playing with their toys and people leave likes and comments. So even if you want to just jump on the channels and tell us you hate us both, the comment would be appreciated. Just leave a thumbs up. All of that good stuff would be. Would be greatly appreciated. But yeah, the idea that Ross basically, to the camera being based in D.C. for this, said Elizondo needs to be more forthcoming about his past roles. You mentioned last week and other folks now seem to be saying that Elizondo is the rumored appointee of this UAP czar role. Okay. I hate that words are. Because it's czar or whatever, depending where you are, different dialects. Okay. But basically the UFO guy for the government, that's what you're going to be. You're going to be the figurehead of whatever this rollout or disclosure is going to be. That set a lot of folks talking because there seems to be. Again, the whole reason for this show is we're talking about the massive split and what folks want and what they. And the thing is, we don't even know what we want this for at the moment because we don't know what we're going to get, what we're going to be given. But it seems that Elizondo is going to be the guy appointed by the White House to lead this forward. When a lot of folks seem to. Some folks are happy with Elizondo, but other folks want Grush. Do you want to just give us your take on that? Because you mentioned it last week on the. The Dummer Show.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, well, I think it definitely should be Grush, no questions asked. And especially because of all the things that we. Ross said, he's right. Like if this is announced or when this is announced, because it seems like it's happening, there's a lot of people that are going to jump out and say, no, we, we don't think that's the best idea. The best option. You already have it as a staffer for Burleson is Grush. And, and the main issue here is that the same Grush wants everything out. So do a lot of people that support what he's trying to do. And there's a part of this movement that does not want everything out. And they're constantly saying national security. And I don't honestly, if, if they came out and told us to just, I don't know, shut the up. We have to stay quiet so we can work on the tech quietly because we know that there is some kind of a threat or they found a Way to say something. I would shut up, but for now we don't have any indication of that. The only indication is that they seem to be protecting interests of their own. A lot of these people, and there are some who say that there isn't a correlation between what James Clapper did outside of UFOs or Brennan did outside of UFOs and the topic. I'm one of those people who happen to think that if you were caught essentially looking the other way or maybe agreeing on spying on your own citizens as the Director of National Intelligence, I would say that's more than enough reason to not trust you with anything, let alone the UFO topic. And when I, when I saw Clapper in the Age of Disclosure trailer, I think everybody who's been following the story of Edward Snowden instantly realized what was going on. You know, and the fact that there is still this push for Lou to be the guy who, who is the UFO czar, and with that background on Clapper and Brennan, it makes you think, man, it's impossible not to think that, don't you think?

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. Let's play the actual clip, because you sent me this over Pavel, of Ross on News Nation and News Nation, let's be fair to them, worldwide are probably the number one news channel for covering the subject of UFOs, and they caught onto it early. I think especially from a social media media perspective, they saw the numbers it was delivering and they went with it. So let's play the clip of Ross on NewsNation.

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

Pretty obvious, I'm not going to lie to you, that the gentleman that I've been talking about, whom I suspect might be up for a big position is Lou Elizondo. And as you may have noticed in recent weeks, I have been quite delicately outspoken in my belief on previous Q and A's that I think Lou needs to be more forthcoming about his past roles. And I like and respect Lew a lot. And I think he's in a difficult position because he's bound by his security oath about what he can reveal about his past roles. I know he can't talk about it. It's a ridiculous situation. But there are people who bitterly resent and don't think it's a good idea that Lou be appointed to a position of power in UAP transparency because they think that he was part of a previous agenda that was essentially to try to control the narrative, to restrict what the public is entitled to know about the UAP disclosure. And I think a lot of this was an intention by James Clapper. General James Clapper to try and impose a narrative on the public domain using Loo as a frontman, a highly urbane, articulate and likable frontman, to try to restrict what the public was told about Crash retrievals. And it struck me over the years that I've been covering this issue that the story that we ran with David Grusch really wrong footed all of this, that all of a sudden David comes up and says, hang on a moment. We're not just arguing here about whether there are aliens or not. What we're talking about here is a crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. And I'm saying it's real. He says, and I think that did Wrong Foot that National Security State attempt to try and provide a controlled disclosure. But I refuse to accept that the people like Lou Elizondo who were part of that attempt at a controlled disclosure were motivated by bad things. They're patriots. They love their country. And I've spoken to people in the Legacy Program who knew Lou. Lou, I know a lot of people and they know you. And I know you can't speak about the role that you've held within the Legacy Program, but you did. And I think we've got to stop this nonsense because it's becoming destructive. There are factions and bitternesses beginning to develop within the UAP world, and I think it's in danger of blowing the whole thing apart.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Beginning to develop is wild, bro. It's been happening for three years.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

It's been happening for longer than that, mate. I think that the idea that things are just getting a bit fractured or people are just separating. If anything, it's just because it's getting a little bit more popular and people are just picking and choosing, picking and choosing their sides. Is there even a necessity then? Because I'm trying to make the point here, right? This isn't about attacking Lou or Ross or Gerb or Grush. It's trying to talk through the. The pros and cons of all of it. Is this necessarily a negative? Now, a lot of folks have all. And Lu himself has always said he's a patriot and he does this for a love of his country, a love of the American people and serving his country and the role that he has done for years. Is there an argument still to be made that regardless of Lou Elizondo has had a role in the Legacy Program, he believes what he's doing is still for the right reasons and that while there may have been stuff he has covered up or kept secret, that he again believes it was for. And as for the right reasons but is still pushing for a form of disclosure that ultimately will give us yes, we are not alone, my fellow American.

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[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I would agree with that, though, but only if. And this goes back to Dylan Borland, because Dylan has said before that he's not in this because of UFOs or whether they're real or not. If had he not been treated the way he was treated by his own government, we wouldn't even know his name. He sent it because he's denouncing the crimes that are happening actively. And this is where the. The whole conversation about amnesty comes into play and where all the difference in opinion also comes into play. Because for me, I get it that people who probably committed crimes decades ago, many of them are not even here anymore. I get that we can get truth and reconciliation in some cases we will have to go on a case by case basis. But there's crimes being committed today still. And, and I've spoken to some of those people who have been harassed, character assassinated, doxed, all this stuff. And I think that there needs to be retribution for. For that. I think that even I know that Lou didn't do that personally. I think he was part of that apparatus. So I think that that's where the conversation is with this, that that's why people feel weird about this, because Lou represents that part, that counter intercontrol narrative part. He. He does represent that. It came out with gerbs work and now with Ross saying this, it came out that he does represent that. And I understand why people would have a problem with that.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. And I get that. And again, I try to stay away from a lot of that. And it's not me just avoiding it for the sake of avoiding it. I just can't be fecked, to use an Irish word, with the hassle and the online drama that comes along with all of that and the folks jumping in X spaces, no offense to the folks who love an X space, but the arguing and the. The ego clashes just did not do it for me at all.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I've done this. I've done the same though. But I'm a media analyst. I have to be looking at this. I was trained to do so. And that's what I've been looking at.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. As we lose Pavel for just a second. I think he'll be back. Oh, there he is. He's back.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Just the camera. Just that I have something in the background sounding.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Okay. No, no, that's okay. What I wanted to ask you though, was what's your take on Ross even coming out and making these comments and statements? Because is this as this either. Let's look at it from different angles. Deliberate as this because Ross and Lou have arranged this, because he said they're their friends, they've been in touch. You're saying no, okay, as this, that Ross has just uncovered new information and is now bringing it forward, or has he been sitting on this for a while and for whatever reason, now's the time.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I honestly don't think I'm the only one who has been looking at this entire, like, clearly counterintel operation on the community. Everybody has been looking at it. It's just something that they don't want to talk about until it was time, which is now. I think that's why Ross came out. I do think that he was, he's been aware of it. And I honestly think personal opinion here that Ross doesn't think that Lou being named the SAR might be the best idea. He thinks Grush should be. And, and the difference is that, yeah, this, some want it all out, others don't. It's, it goes, it boils down to that, I think.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

How does it then for you frame what's happened the last few years even going. I know your involvement has been what, three years in the UFO topics and really getting into it. How does this frame things for you if this is the case? Because I don't think we're going to get Elizondo coming out tomorrow and saying, yes, folks, I was involved in the Legacy program or I am involved, that's very unlikely. But what does this do to the whole framing of this for you?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I guess it depends on what more evidence or things are. Are released, whether it's from Grush or the White House or if there's the announcements, if Crush is, if, if Lou is named UAP Tar, I think that Grush is going to have to play ball. Even if he doesn't agree, that's just like. Because you're gonna have to look at the bigger picture. Right? But, and, and many think that if Grush plays ball with Lou and plays ball with this idea of control, disclosure, at the end of the day, something that, yeah, we need to get that official acknowledgment and then continue fighting the little fights inside of it of what's going on. And I, while I respect that way of thinking, I think that covering up for stuff like that still and trying to play ball, quote unquote, I think it only perpetuates the already problematic landscape.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Quick aside, a lot of folks in the comments asking about Skywatcher and Jake Barber. I just interviewed Michael Herrera yesterday on the podcast. The interview will come out in the next kind of 24 hours to 36 hours. And the final thing he says is on Barber and Skywatcher, and not to spoil and ruin it for you all folks, I hope people check it out. But he essentially says that Sky Watcher has been partially dissolved and taken in by the US Government, essentially. So you'll get the full framing context behind that answer if you check out my interview with Michael Herrera when it becomes available. It's not fully edited yet. I'm not taking stuff out of it. I've just got to make it look nice. But, yeah, that is something we discussed. So Herrera is.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

That's a pretty. That's a pretty big scoop, man.

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

Holy.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, and it's like, I. I wish I had more time with them. Like, yeah, I could. I. I got through about a third of my interview, so we had to kind of. But I'm quite proud. What I will say is the way I get that question in there, if it's using the context of an answer he gives and he goes. And. Yeah, so I was quite chuffed with how I framed it. But, yeah, people need to check that one out. Pavel, when it drops in the next day or so, hopefully the folks over in your channel check it out too.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

You know what's weird about it, though, because I. I've been hearing this in the background for a while, but nobody who's involved or like, linked to that had been willing to say it in public. So you get like the first person to say it in public. That's pretty big.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Unfortunately, the first person is me, and I've spoiled it. But listen, for all of you on here, watching and listening live or are in the future, there you go. As very much, I've just given away the ending of the Sixth Sense, essentially because it's the last thing he says in the interview. I am my own Haley Joel Osmond or Bruce Willis, whatever. But yeah, G. To get back to the Elizondo stuff, right?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Gerb has not been shy about his distrust of Elizondo, and particularly he made the comment. And I thought this was the most striking comment from G. Incredible researcher, ridiculous mind. Clearly not working like a normal human being. If you want to ask about, you know, NHI living amongst us, fingers pointed at Garb, to be honest. However, he. He says a key thing, that there are whistleblowers. He knows for. For certain 100 that if Lou Elizondo is made, the UAPS are. If he is the guy the White House appoints. There are people who do not want to come forward and speak to him. There is a fear of coming forward and sharing what they know with Elizondo at the helm. Now, we are trying to be professional and keep this as. As neutral as possible. Share our opinion, but present the information. But I like presenting the facts and let people make up their own mind. That's a really difficult statement, though, to keep neutral, because that is really pointed. If you're saying that people won't come forward because this is a bad guy, I don't think I'm wrong in saying that is. That's paraphrasing what Garb said.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah. And he's been talking about it for. For many videos, and that's. That's his position. And, you know, he wouldn't be the first one who I hear talking in that way, you know, but for me, he's one of the most credible people talking about taking this approach. And, you know, he's been right about quite a lot of what he's been researching for a while. So I would just want to wait and see what happens. But it. It is alarming that, you know, there are people who, if this is true, if what Ger is, like, proposing is true, there are people within the disclosure movement who are actively not doing anything about it. They know and they don't. They're not doing anything. They're allowing it to happen. And I want to know why that is. That. That would be a good question to ask, for example, Melon, just to give you an example, who. We know that has been thick as thieves with Lou from the beginning. But, yeah, like, probably asking some of those questions in. In a neutral setting to all of those involved wouldn't be necessarily such a bad idea. I really hope that we can get that at some point.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

What do you. Loads of people in the comments. Right. Saying this, and this is online as well, and I don't want to make that sound petty, but a lot of folks are saying there seems to be a real issue between Grush and Elizondo personally. Now, they've spoken before, privately and publicly, but people are saying that Lou deliberately mispronounces Grush's name as Grush. As a slight, however, I mean, I remember this was something when I done one of the breakdowns way back in the day with Dan, and. And Dan said, grush. And I was like, it's Grush. And Dan was like, no, no. I spoke to him on the phone at Lewis House, and he said, it's Grush. If you go back and watch any hearings or how he introduces himself, he says Grush. So that's paid to that. But is there anything in that you think Elizondo is being deliberately. He's derogatory by mispronouncing his surname. Are we really at that point?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

You know, I think that the difference between them is philosophical as how to approach this, because I think that it boils down to Lou was in the inside and he probably has intentions to put this out, but he has certain reservations. And Grush came from the outside and he saw what was going on and he saw all the misbehaving from certain parts of the government and he just wanted it all out. That's as far as I think the differences go. But I have noticed that. That Lou does say that. I don't know if it's intentional or not. Honestly, I don't see it. But maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, I know loads of folks are commenting, but I don't see that either, other than people just either mispronouncing it. I must. I pronounce my name a million different ways. I watch a lot of football, Pavel, as I know you did. And how often do commentators say the same players name different ways? And it's. There's nothing to it. I don't think Elizondo's out there mispronouncing.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah. With me, people say Pavel. People say Pavel. People say Pablo. You know, I don't. I don't care.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

I've heard it pronounced that way. That's a lot of names.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

That's Mr. Shed head for you, man.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. Senor Shithead.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, Senor.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. That's going to be someone's handle now. On it. An interesting comment again, Gerb made. He said in his live stream, people should go check out with Rob Jones and Kermit. He said he was speaking to Hal Putov. Now this is something. It's probably worth having the Gerb conversation as well, because it's really unfair just to pick certain individuals and not everyone involved in this conversation. Gerbs, can I come the last couple of years from relative nowhere to having this incredible channel incredibly well researched? I will not slay Gerb the same way I see Chris Ramsay and Jesse Michaels. They're not making podcasts. They're not doing this. They are making documentaries. That's what they do. The filming standards, the quality, the camera, the budget, the. The way they do what they do. It's not a podcast, it's a documentary. Okay? And Gerb's got this huge rise to the point. He is now at tables with Chris Mellon, Avi Loeb, Alputov, Eric Burleson. He's been invited into that circle with all of these folks because of knowledge, because of the way he can put himself across because have almost a savant. I don't think I'm blowing smoke up the guy's arse to say it's almost like a. A savant the way he knows what he knows and can reel that kind of stuff off. I, as people will know listening to or watching this, I can talk crap in a roundabout way for any length of time. But he does it in such a structured, eloquent way. It's ridiculous the way he goes on. But he. He's at the table with put. He's speaking to Putov on and he mentioned on his latest live stream Put off was a member of osat and he mentioned to put off that in the Age of Disclosure documentary. Put off and someone else, I can't remember if it was Eric Davis or not are listed as a TIP Scientists. And he says but that's not the case. You are an OSAP scientist because you weren't an ATEP scientist. A TIP was an unofficial program. OSAP was the DADDY program. And Put off said he wasn't aware of that and was a little bit concerned by it as. As there. And some folks in the comments are suggesting this as well. Is there anything an Age of Disclosure being a rebranding or an attempt to rewrite a little bit of history on the part of atep.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I have a little theory about that. If, if I may. It. It feels like the whole DIA thing and the capella repository of information, it seems like that was happening without the knowledge of people from Legacy and then they notice what was happening. And I think probably that's when Lou came into the picture, you know, and it, it's really wild to see especially when I saw the film the first time, Age of Disclosure, that there was absolutely no mention of like OS App and Skinwalker Ranch and like the events of for example, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. I think those events should have been one of the main topics to cover in a documentary of this nature. And they just didn't because they wanted to take the very specific curated approach. And for me that was very telling. I don't know how you. You saw that

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

it was grail. She's asking there, David Grelsh, he's asking when was Age of Disclosure filmed? It was filmed over three years. So there was a big, a big time period that that documentary was put together, which is always an interesting point because early on in a documentary, we see Stratton and Elizondo together side by side. But then folks have surmised, pure speculation. That was before Elizondo's book came out. And then the rest of the documentary, they're always separate and people have filled in the blanks there to say they must have had a falling out, the breakdown of the relationship. Elizondo's book came out, the online drama happened. Do you have that take with it for me? Again, just the overall documentary. I was surprised how Elizondo focused it was. But then, does it just make sense that's the case because he and Pharah had gotten together. The book deal was put together through Pharah, and it makes sense that, well, I've got this guy who's now my go to. In the same way Burleson. You would take any information Burleson has and what he says. You tend to imagine it's Grush behind him in his ear, because Grush is his guy. So I just assume that Farah took Elizondo's lead in making the documentary and

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

now Jay Stratton is his guy. It's no longer Lou, but maybe I.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

I know that's the next book coming out, but, you know, maybe, maybe not. Unless.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Do you think, do you think disclosure, like, might have been part of, like, the. The official plan to roll this out? I think it was, right? It feels like it. Age of the store. I'm not talking about disclosure day, just age of disclosure.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

What I don't get right, I still struggle with the impact that people say it had. Sure. A lot of the clips went viral and got massive views. Okay, that's. That's totally fair. Most people, though, didn't watch it. That I know. And I know folks get really vehemently defending of it and oh, yeah, it's amazing. It was number one. I. I don't mean to be disparaging, but I don't think it takes much to be the number one documentary on Amazon Prime. You know, it probably like, you know, back in the day, if you released a single, a CD or a cassette tape or any song in the 80s 90s, you had to sell hundreds of thousands of copies to get into the charts. Now you can get a few, a few 10,000 and you get there. Or a few thousand street, you know, people can do well Now, I'm not saying the documentary didn't perform well. It was incredibly dry, though. I don't believe the general public sat through that documentary. And the numbers people are making out they did now. To the point then, is it made for the folks in the background? Why do you have to make a documentary for them? They can have these conversations and a whole lot more face to face. They have already had a lot of these conversations face to face and going around the houses. Are people genuinely trying to tell me, and I wonder, Pavel, is this what you think, that Farah went to this hassle to make this documentary, which a lot of those talking heads, 95% of it had already been said on podcasts of various quality around, you know, the Internet. So the stuff was out there. They had to make that just to show a bunch of people in the capitol in Washington and scientists for them to go, oh, shit, this is really serious. Dan Far has made a documentary on it. I don't feel that that doesn't sound legitimate to me. That doesn't sound realistic. Is that fair?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, it is. I think that probably, you know, because there's been a lot of different lore in ufology and a lot of different authors that have studied this topic for many decades and it's pretty. You ain't heard about Moto Casino. Moto has real Vegas slots. Any game you can find on the floor in Vegas, you can play it on Moto. I like my slots hot. Moto free to play like food stamps in line at the grocery store, at a funeral in traffic.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

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[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

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[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I don't want to say something disparaging, but, you know, why would you think that your movie is going to have that effect specifically unless there is, like, a plan for it, you know, to roll out like that, and it very much feels like it. You've seen Dan Farrokh repeatedly saying publicly that his film was the one that they are using to. To do disclosure. Like, flat out, he's saying it like that. I think that it's because there probably was a plan and all of those people involved do think that that probably that was the only way to do it, but honestly, I disagree.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Great question from Dave Smitherst. Would Andy and Pavel rather have Lou as the Tsar or nobody?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

No. Somebody else. Not. Not. You know, I. I don't think Lou is the best answer option. I think it should be Grush.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

If it's not, though, if it was a case of this position is made for him, like Trump himself has decided. This Elizondo guy, he's the guy.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

He's the best guy.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

He's the guy we need, you know? You know, Trump's done that.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Or either way. Or what?

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Or it doesn't exist. The role. That's your option. Elizondo, or the role doesn't exist.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Either way, whatever. I think doesn't really matter, you know, if they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it. So. But yeah, I, I don't think it's a great idea to have him on. I mean, they're already. They already made the decision, Andy. I think that's why they. They announced the science advisory board and all that stuff. I would like to see moving forward, given that this seems like a done deal. I would like to see Grush and Lou sitting down together and, like, try to work out whatever differences they have. And, yeah, it would be a great idea for Lou to answer to Ross's calling. And if he can't say anything that's classified, he can at least say, I can neither confirm nor deny. And that would be an answer for me, you know, but somebody would ask him just the direct questions about what people have been asking about for years now about him, and he can, if. If he has, if he musters the courage to do that. I would look at Lou in a different light, honestly. But I think that there needs to be cooperation between the sides involved. I think at least sit down and talk it over, you know, like, go to the, The. The flying saucer that Ramsey just created, you know, and just have, like, a more laid back, yet serious conversation about this. I think that that needs to happen if the announcement is imminent.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. And I love the Chris Ramsey thing, but for me, this. This would have to be a Joe Rogan podcast.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

It has to be that kind of forum, not UFO centric, not for the UFO crowd. It needs to be on a bigger, more independent platform for me to have that. No editing. No editing. Raw live, bang camera recording, let's go. Or I'll host it. But yeah, I, I think generally, yeah, it needs to, it needs the bigger, it needs the bigger platform to do that. And I think Rogan would be a good, a good place to do that. Yeah, the. I've got a few folks asking questions on this. Pavel, can I read a few of them out?

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[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

These were also sent over to me on a few different platforms regarding amnesty. So this is something that we're talking about, Elizondo. We're talking about whistleblowers, according to Gerb, saying there are whistleblowers who are in fear of coming forward if Elizondo is the guy they're coming forward to. And I think that's really, that's, that's what I'm going to have to sit on for a few weeks to see what happens and what comes out of it. Okay, so the question then around amnesty for, for whistleblowers, Michael said, who is amnesty for specific individuals? Because I can assure you there will not be a blanket amnesty for every unnamed Joe working in the UAP legacy program. I think it's going to be, here you go, Lou Elizondo, here's amnesty, or here you go, David Grush, here's your amnesty. It will not be an everyone gets amnesty, Oprah Winfrey style. That would be the same as catastrophic disclosure. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on selected amnesty.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I would advocate for it because I. We need to go on a case by case basis, especially with people who did commit crimes. I would like to see what they did and especially the ones that are committing crimes right now. But if they target like specific people like Dr. Eric Davis, David Grush himself, Dylan Borland, Matthew Brown, I'm all for it. Yeah, of course.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Have you ever heard. Oh, I'll just answer quickly, Jesse. The poster behind me is available on my website. If you check out that ufopodcast.com store like and subscribe and comment. Folks, sorry to do the wanky YouTuber thing, but yeah, it does help us all out.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Have you ever heard of a program in the UK called Only Fools and Horses?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Only what?

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Only Fools and Horses. No, no. It's a classic comedy. It's one of the great comedies of all time. Right. It's hilarious. Came out in the 80s and it ran for a decade and a half. I'VE seen every episode a million times. People will be listening to this and it's so niche to be. Oh my God. Andy's referencing only Fools and Horses. However, there's a really famous episode, right, and it's a comedy and it's utter genius. And the whole episode it's the brothers in a jail cell and the police are trying to get them to confess to a robbery that's happened and it's all kind of tongue in cheek and funny and ultimately it ends and he thinks he's protecting his brother and the cops basically got him to pretend he's done it, sign this to say it was you and I've got everything on you. And it turns out he basically cheats the cop by getting amnesty because he was the guy who committed the robbery. And it's this great twist at the end of it, it's genius, it's so funny. But you wouldn't find out it was him unless he gets the amnesty first. So to your point Pavel, if you've got these guys coming forward and you're saying you want to know what they've done first, that's not going to work, is it? Because these guys are going to go, no, no, no, no, no. You don't get to know what I've done until I get my amnesty. I want that first then. And at that point Pavel, they may tell you the most horrific crimes that have been committed. Including my interview with Herrera. We go over Michael Herrera's his encounter, the human trafficking aspect of it, what he learned since, you know, the idea that perhaps we are using back engineered non human technology to human traffic people and disaster zones that could be going on, children could be going missing around the world, being used as psionic assets, being used to control craft and some kind of minority report type situation, all that kind of stuff and more. But you're not going to get to know that unless you sign these people a complete get a jail free card.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, that's difficult. I don't know how they would, you know, I'm not, I'm not like well versed in law. I think that if we want to talk tackle that we would need an entirely different legislation than the one that there is right now. And I know that they're already signed, they put in the legislation on both the Senate and the House, but I think that there, there needs to be a more sensible approach to specific aspects of it. Sorry about the plane.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

What plane? Is there some.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

There's a plane, there's a plane going over.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Cannot hear that. I Just. I thought you were seeing things. And Pavel, Pavel's on the, on the podcast.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

No, no, no, no. Don't start that, man. I'm already. They're already giving me shit on Hex.

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

Yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

No, no. So yeah, I think we, we had this. If people want to hear a kind of deeper discussion about the amnesty situation, check out the Dummer Friday we recorded last week with Clint and, and Xander as well. Really interesting. We go into a lot of back and forward on that because what I like about talking with you guys PAVL is we don't all agree either. So you can have that discussion, that debate that back and forward on. On that situation. Stormy asked a question. What is the biggest question in the UFO community right now that nobody is asking for you?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Damn. That's.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

It's a hard one to put you on the spot with.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, I would say probably. We can go two routes.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Go on.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

It's either the. We're not talking about abductions enough. That's. That's one I think. And the other one is, you know, powerful and well known people within the UFO community who abuse their power with others within the UFO community. But those are like different ways to approach it. One is a more human problem, the other one is more. Has to do with direct contact and experiences that people had. Those are the ones.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think there's one aspect of it and I've touched on it there where I've had conversations with folks where it touches on the. The involvement of children in this going back decades and being used for programs, which I think is one of those things that when people really look at this and I mean take a real wide lens of this topic and say we need everything out in the open, we can handle the truth. If you look at what's happening with the Epstein situation and what we believe is going on there, you're hearing things that if, if it can be worse or potentially along those lines, if not worse, involving children. When it comes to aspects of programs within the UFO topic, I.e. not going to come out in a congressional hearing. That is not going to come out on the.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

And, and we have, we have MK Ultra hearings tomorrow, but I don't think they're going to talk about that at all.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Nah, it's, it's not going to go that deep. And that is, that is layers of the onion deep that we are not even. We're still peeling at the skin just now of the onion in terms of the UFO topic. So I think for me that would be to answer Stormy's question, a pretty, pretty deep one. But I also agree though around that, that community aspect. I think people aren't maybe held accountable enough. I get away with this because of my fence sitting. But I think there are folks in the UFO community, both with platforms and without, who really try and force narratives or agendas on people that we don't know. And I always say we. The phrase I don't know or we don't know is not used enough across the UFO topic for me at all. Yeah, that's, that's a big issue. Yeah. Pavel, Tommy had asked think that he thinks the quicker Trump allows NDAs to be broken, we might eventually get the truth out or as close as we can to it in the last few days. Luna Burleson and others seem pretty confident that that is coming. I still struggle to see a time where those NDAs are waived. Like I don't know about you.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah. And even if they get them, we would have to see what the specifics are because the administrative terrorism against people who come forward is still very real. And to me, what, what really. And this is something that I wanted to talk to you a little bit about. And I'm glad that this question was brought forward because what I definitely see is there is like a commonality between a lot of the people that decide to come forward that had, were exposed to some of this indirectly and unexpectedly. One thing that they do share is that their, they have a high moral compass, you know, most of them. And, and something that we've been hearing for decades about these people from legacy and from these programs, the gatekeepers, so to speak, is that you have to be, have a specific level of sociopathy or even worse to be part of this because you can't really get too involved or too invested in stuff that you see on a day to day basis. And something that I see that is happening very, very commonly here is that these people are being like David Grush and Dylan Borland and Matthew Brown for trying to do the right thing. A lot of those folks that are part of these programs, they, they take this attitude of oh, he's his net shit, you know, And I think that's a major, major problem there because, well, we see a major contrast between somebody who is trying to do the right thing and people who just decide to look the other way and they don't have the same level of empathy. And I think that's a major topic that is probably not covered enough. And I, and I've been talking to some people who they don't necessarily like or agree or they don't think that anything big is going to happen with David Grush and Matthew Brown and Dylan Borland coming forward trying to do the right thing because that's not the culture within the agencies. What they see is people from within within those agencies as people who snitched and that's very unfortunate that they have that mentality.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah someone's put new UAPs are Sean Kirkpatrick lol. I I didn't answer the question David put in about Elizondo or no one I think I would have to go Elizondo just because I feel there's a potential path there to something coming out and if we ultimately still get we are not alone. There is something non human interacting and I get there may be a detriment potentially from what Garbin I mean the thing is though we're being told this by Garb and Ross but we don't know so you have to be fair right now and say it'd be unfair just to point fingers at Elizondo and say he's a bad guy, he shouldn't be the guy we don't know. We need more information like this topic all the same with videos we need more info, we need more data, we need more context and we need that with the Elizondo situation too. So I think I would still probably rather go for for that than nothing to be honest.

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

Yeah.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

And and if you do have like those that level of accusations against someone the best way to back them up is to present evidence. Simple as that.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

On that one of the guys on the chat and the Discord sorry for the podcast. So hi to everyone on the Discord watching not a Mantis said Gerber Coulter should push Lou Elizondo on the whole lights in his home thing. That would be the biggest thing ever if true and weird if ignored. So that was something that came out folks, if you're, if you're newer to the topic or unaware maybe you forgot back when Elizondo had been doing this for a couple of years and he was on various shows he mentioned that he had seen in his home in his own home orbs going around the house. He was asked if those had been filmed and he said he hadn't filmed them. He wasn't putting up cameras around his home. Does that situation change at all for you Pavel, when you again let's use the framing of he was involved in the Legacy program or is yeah if

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

there is like something to be shown about those events that can be shared with the public. It would, yeah, definitely. Depending on how compelling it is.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. And again the whole idea of the hitchhiker effect are these things following people home because of their work, because of their involvement. We've heard countless individuals mention this side note there. I see Tim Gallaudet is now an advisor for Skinwalker Ranch too. So getting his land land legs from the Navy and going really unsure there with Utah. But yeah, no that's, that's a very fair point on the Elizondo situation and Nick wanted to know Pavel, do we actually think Elizondo believes something sinister is coming? Why start a brewery, lose weight and write books? Those feel like the actions of someone with a long term outlook. And this is a fair question because I do think Louis Ondo plays on this somber comment he once made on the the idea something may be coming. He recently had this conversation and his on his one man tour where he mentioned, you know, and he says this answer quite often that you know something coming. I can't have that conversation. That's not for me to have. Love your children, hug your loved ones, all that kind of stuff. For me that has an element of showmanship and playing up to that. But I do see the point where folks are going well he's, you know, I don't think they're losing weight things an issue if we do have some kind of apocalypse on the way. You want to be as slim as possible to, to outrun the family next year from the zombie hordes but the whole starting a brewery and things like that, that does seem long term outlook. And I, I have wondered and it is maybe quite a micro way to look at this but if I knew for, for almost certain in the next couple of years something's going to happen that is going to render our society obsolete or take us back to the stone Age, would I waste my time writing a book? The answer is no. So that, that does make me wonder

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

there that's what made me. Because I've talked about this before when I released my like information about James Webb and all that stuff that I did back in 2024 I think it was that's something that didn't sit well with me when Lou went on Matt Ford's show and they sort of alluded to it but they weren't really clear about it. And I had been trying to get information from somebody from the European Space Agency about sort of classified stuff that goes on with James Webb specifically. And when I, I saw that Lou made that comment it kind of pissed me off and I correlated it and then I dropped my information. And what I know now, or I can tell you now is that they seem to have some kind of data, but it is not certain that that's what's going to happen. And I'm not sure if the data comes from that passage material that Jeremy Corbell mentioned or if there is something else to it, you know, something different to just pisses me off that, you know, they use that to put you on your toes and like try to. Because, man, right after I released that information, even though I wasn't the one who was saying it, I just reported on those unclassified briefings and using slides and all that stuff. People get really worked up about this specific topic. And I, I got like messages from everybody just like, what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? That's the effect that clips like that one from Lou on the Good Trouble show causes. And that is not positive. That is not a good effect to cause on people because unfortunately, and this is something that I think we agree on even though that we feel like there is something to this topic and worth pursuing. There is also, unfortunately, a lot of mental health issues in this topic and there's a lot of people that get hung up on it and they shouldn't even be looking at it because they're not well. And this only perpetuates them remaining unwell and going down rabbit holes for no use really, other than just waste their time and get on a constant doom scroll sort of position. And that's just not a way to live, man.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, and that goes for all topics. This is not exclusive to UFOs. I, yeah, big football fan. I've got a separate account for, for following Rangers, my football team. And you should see the comments on there from various different teams and people who, who spend their lives not even with their own team though, but just constantly trolling the other side and it's just not healthy at all. And I think that that goes. That's just a social media problem. Logan says. Logan's Hall Grill streams. If Lou were named UFO Czar, do you think Trump would defer the we are not Alone speech to Lou? And what impact would. Nope. And what impact would, what impact would impact would this have if it were to come from Lou versus Trump? And also, let's just touch on the whole July 8th, I mean, thing that people are still going, people are still going on about.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, well, obviously that's never going to happen if, you know, you're president. It's never going to happen. I'M not talking to you, Andy. I'm talking to the person who was probably an American.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, we don't really have one right now. Ours, I was chucked it, so,

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

so

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I don't think that's gonna happen. I, I, and I don't think Lou would want for that to happen. I think that he understands that it should be the precedent, shouldn't be anybody else. Now, what was the other question? The other part of the question, the July 8th thing. That's right, yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Because that's still, again, for those contexts. Let's give a little bit of context. This started quite a while ago, Mark Christopher Lee, who came on the show for me, just my opinion, you can see all kind of things when you preface stuff with that, but made a complete arse of himself over the last few months because he came on the show, he'd been saying that he was in touch with a senior figure and the Trump administration as such, who was telling him that there was a speech written that was going ahead. Trump was going to give us this. It was going to be on July 8, the Roswell anniversary and the whole we are not alone thing. It then comes out that he was on a phone call with Bob Bigelow. George Knapp has since spoken to Bob Bigelow and said this was complete nonsense. So either this UK based filmmaker is in touch with Robert Bigelow, or as Robert Bigelow told George Knapp, this is utter nonsense and not happening. But this has now gained legs in the media, it's gained traction because people have jumped on it, that Trump may be ready to give some kind of disclosure speech on July 8th.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

So if it, Let me ask you something, though. If it does happen exactly, like, I'll be furious.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

I'll be so annoyed. I think I would, I think I would have to do the really stereotypical Scottish thing now of like, yeah, but it wasn't because of that. This is now just pure coincidence. In the same way that if the aliens come down and say, right, where is Dr. Stephen Greer? We'd love to speak to him in person. I'd be like, oh my God.

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

God.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

I mean, I would immediately sign up to his channel, but, you know, I, I don't think that's going to imagine,

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

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[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, Bijou was here. Is the guy around somewhere?

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[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

You have been talking to him, haven't you? And I'd feel like, oh my God, I'd just be straight on to Gaia and reactivating my subscription oh my God.

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[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, but no, like I can't see the July 8 thing happening. It would make sense in terms of a date. I, I get that. The Roswell anniversary. But no, Trump would never and neither he should. It would look strange if anyone other

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

than I don't think Trump is that well versed on ufology at all. So if he does that, I think he would do it on July 4th, not on the 8th. That would make more sense to him, you know, as a president.

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[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

But I don't, I don't know. I don't know. The information that I do have, and I've already shared this, is that there seems to be already a drafted executive order for whistleblower protections. Yeah, I don't know if that is probably going to be announced in the next couple of weeks or something like that, but that's the information that I have. Hopefully it's real, the intel. Yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

How big would that be? If that executive order not only exists, but if it actually goes ahead and we then have the floodgates opened for whistleblowers, out you come. You can now. And I think people have an understanding that they're all going to come out one by one and speak publicly. That's not necessarily the case. Most of it will still happen behind closed doors. A lot of these whistleblowers probably don't want to come and speak publicly because of what they're going to say. But it just allows those big conversations to have to happen and folks like Burleson Luna and others to get the information they need.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

But the mechanism, the mechanism that I think should like take place, if it is done like that, is that he issues that and he would want for specific names that are advised to him by probably Luna, if you ask me, to go inside a skiff or somebody, somewhere secure to talk about it with either the President or Rubio, who, as we know, he was probably part of that group of senators who allegedly got disclosure from the 40 witnesses that David Grush put forward. And because I know that AOC is on record saying that, that she was like, Senate already got disclosure. So I would guess that those were, would be the guys involved, either Trump or Rubio, and they get all the information and we don't know anything about that information yet. But potentially if things, if we live in a perfect world, which I don't think we do, they do that, they talk to Trump or Rubio and then there is some sort of rollout plan to say we're not alone. If that happens in a, in an ideal world, I think that's how whatever this revelation or acknowledgement, that's how it starts, I would say.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

I asked the question on the Doomer show last week and I'm going to ask it here on both our channels. Okay. Do you think all the figures who are currently public, Grush, Elizondo, Melon, Davis, etc. Right. Given what they know, if we put them all in a conference room and said, right, guys, given what you have had access to and what you know, do you think the sum of the parts would be disclosure if we allowed them to speak publicly? Or do you still think they are missing important pieces that ultimately would convince the public?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Well, to me, there are two types of people within this movement. Those who have been exposed to classified intel like Dr. Hal put off, and those who were exposed to intel that they weren't supposed to see. Like, for example, people talk about Tim Khalid, he was exposed to that video that was according to his account, erased from that server. Right. That is something that he was exposed to that he wasn't supposed to see and he can report on that. Dylan Borland was exposed to presumably Project Rubik's Cube and all that stuff that. And they can report on that, but they don't have this knowledge. Like, for example, somebody like Dr. Hal put off may have had, because Dr. Put off did work in classified programs. Eric Davis did work in classified programs. So that's the two things that we're kind of looking at right now.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I think people would presume that Grush on his own, if you said to him, david, there's a laptop with access to the servers that, you know, can you pull us some videos, some graphics and show us concrete proof of non human intelligence? And I mean the proof that the general public look at and go, yeah, that's it. Not oh, that's AI because that's such a lazy argument. But wow, yeah, that's proof. I wonder if even then what they have had access to is enough that they would go a lot more is based on context and testimony and documents.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Let's say, let's say Grush does have access to, for example, photographs because he alluded to that the recent press conference. If those photographs were for example, of a gray and it can be traced and you know, you can get the provenance and all that stuff, would you consider that disclosure? If he got access to one picture, that would be it, right?

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Clear. Clear picture.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be it.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I think that, that's where, I think that's what they're alluding to, bro.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

One, one caveat though. They have to be able to get access to the body though, to then show eventually too. Because if they say here's a picture of a being allegedly captured 50 years ago in this crash site, but we don't know where it is now, I would, I would say no, because people are then going to say it's disinformation, it's passage material. Yeah, because I know. I'll just mention big shout out to Graham Randall, who is one of the best historians in this whole topic. Yeah, yeah, check out his, his series on the Foo Fighters of World War II and going back before then and after incredibly well researched books and the history of this topic going back to a time before drones and the tech that we have now was anywhere near even a thought. Graham, for example, is really quite convinced that the Magenta crash as disinformation or misinformation and never happened. He knows a lot about that. I've touched on it with him before. But David Grush will talk about Magenta and a lot of officials at the disclosure forum will talk about Magenta, Italy, 1933. But Graham would be like, well, no. And you wonder, is there still aspects of this topic that even David Grush has been exposed to and unwittingly or even, Even maybe isn't 100 certain has been exposed to misinformation or disinformation on the topic? Real files.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

But perhaps nonsense, it's definitely possible. I mean, if, if the disinformation machine has been operating since the late 40s or early 50s, there's definitely a lot of stuff that has been shown to people, researchers, even people with the level of clearances that David Grush had that probably could have fooled them. Definitely. Yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

I've got a couple more things I just quickly wanted to mention Pavel and if folks leave a like and a comment on the videos, that would really be appreciated and I'll do that. You got a little bit more time?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Awesome. So the, the UAP Disclosure act is again looking like it's going back through. I forget it's late here at the House or the Senate. Schumer is putting it back through on the floor, isn't he?

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[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Just last week Schumer rounds and then Burleson, Andre Carson and Eli Crane put the, the House one.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Really interestingly what they're looking to do with this also is out the people who vote against the. Aren't they. So they're not only trying to get the bill through. Again, big picture. Previously we had eminent domain, a Presidential review board and a whole lot of other aspects to it as well. Because I remember Danny Sheehan very fairly kind of caught me on that when I interviewed him saying it was a failure that it hadn't gone through because of the Presidential review board and eminent domain being stripped out. And he said actually elements of it still did get through. There are successes within this stuff. Just maybe not the big picture we hoped for. But that's an interesting way to approach this now, isn't it? And I keep talking about this new phase and I don't know where to call it, a new phase of disclosure, a new phase of the COVID up. Maybe it's both, you know, maybe something's coming out, but they're covering it up and they're controlling the narrative. People can share their thoughts in the chats with that, but how is that for you going to land that? They're going to use this almost as bait to see who votes against it. And then what do they plan on doing with that information? You know, Pavel's voted against U.S. congressman for whatever, you know, what did he then do?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Well, I mean that really doesn't mean anything if they vote against it. Really. It just puts them their name on the spot as somebody who voted against it. But I would guess that they would go and try to search for their history, who, who are their donors, stuff like that, see if there's any correlation to any of the aerospace companies or anything like that. I think it's a good tactic just to know who's who, I guess. But I don't Think it can really do anything to change things. I'm. I'm still on the same boat, dude. I, I don't think that the UAP Disclosure act is the way to go. I think that there should be a different legislation that deals with a lot of the stuff that were proposed on the initial one that deals with them. Because there are a lot of like, fail safes to get final say on things to either the President or people from the intel community. And that, like the imminent domain part, I think that that was put in there just to create dissent amongst people who read that. It's just like a term that it feels divisive. It feels like it was engineered to do that. And I think that there needs to be a different type of legislation, just as robust, like 60 plus pages. But that is more specific with the certain parts that were contentious on the first one.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. It just seems that we're potentially in a phase where if this stuff's going to go through, it is literally no or never that they're going back in with this, what, third or fourth attempt at this Disclosure Act Executive orders potentially going through in the next couple of weeks. If, if there has been any momentum from Age of Disclosure, the Capitol Hill event Disclosure forum, Elizondo being appointed in this role, that would perhaps be a real big win if Elizondo gets announced in this role, for him to have a first speech or first enactment to be the President has signed. And imagine Trump beside Elizondo with Trump there signing the executive orders. You know, the pomp and the circumstance. It's a new era disclosure. And I get there'll be a whole lot of conversations to be had around that and what that may or may not entail, the good, the bad and the ugly. But to see that step forward, that would be potentially huge, not only for Elizondo, but for the topic as well, and see where it kind of goes from there. And I think you would see a whole new kind of era of pushback at that point too.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, I agree there, man. I. It feels sort of like the next few days, even a couple of weeks are going to be very interesting in this topic, so. So let's see how it goes.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

And one more thing I wanted to get your thoughts on. Eric Burleson in the last week or so has talked about writing to Lincoln Labs Mitre about a specific video being requested now.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

It's a huge story, man.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, well, at first I thought it was a little bit disappointing because much like Steven Spielberg's Disclosure Day, where I was expecting one Thing and thinking we were going to get some amazing video with some footage and you know, from the last 15 or 20 years. 100 foot, a thousand foot UFO bursting through the clouds. It's a video that they hold of a debrief from the 1952 Washington flap. Why for you is that potentially exciting to hear that that's the video?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Because it's been part of lore for a while that, that event. We do have that press conference from that. I think it was General who talks about trained observers and all that stuff, which I thought by the. For the era it was a compelling testimony from him. And we know that the video, alleged video of these things above the Capitol. We know that that's a fake one. Right. So I getting more proof that the event actually took place coming from an official place. And, and, and you can get the prominence of the video and all that, even if it's just a briefing. I do think it is significant. It's not disclosure per se, but it, it is like a confirmation of an event that has been contested for decades. And if that, if that happens, it will be pretty big, I think.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, I think it's the language and it would have to be very specific for me, really specific and refer to not only that event, but I would like to hear the general talk about we know these things aren't human, we know they are alien. I'd want to hear that kind of acknowledgment alluding to what had come before. And again we're going back to 52, so only perhaps five, six, seven, eight years of knowledge since Roswell. But I would like to hear even like that, you know, we remember we had, we covered that thing from Roswell. That's what would have to be in it for me for this to be genuinely worthwhile and explosive. If this ends up something akin to that was interesting. But it doesn't sound like that's what it is because they really seem to be going after this. So that could be, could be really, really interesting for me. But it has to be specific.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

It feels like it's like a really private conversation that potentially we're gonna get. So yeah, I, if it's real, I would expect like people yelling at each other or disagreeing on what the. They're looking at stuff, stuff like that. Even if it's not as clear as you hope that it is that you just explained, if they're like going like it doesn't come from this. Is it Russian, is it this? And they, they can't get to a, an answer on it, on what it is. That would also I think would be important for me because you get like, it's like that old document from the 70s from Australia that was just in one of the tranches of the UFO files. It proves that they were dealing with something similar to what people are dealing with now in a serious fashion, you know, and I think that would be significant too.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah. Pavel, for me I just want to mention a few people I've got coming up on the show and the next couple of weeks I wrote out my guest list of folks I've been in touch with and it's pretty extensive. I should have amongst many names and I think I'm pretty much into August now at this point. Jonathan Kaplan joining me on the podcast who's got his book out just now and which is the number one bestseller in UFOs. Chris Ramsey's joining me in the next couple of weeks from Area 52. We're going to be having a massive conversation. Michael Shermer is on with me on Wednesday. That's rescheduled. Yeah. Skeptic has been appointed to the, the Science Advisory Board. Jason Samosa, who's doing some wonderful deep dives and amongst many things, the Collins elite and Matthew Tuttle who is going to be talking about UEP and UFO investment as the dogs kill each other in the background there for, for Pavel. But that's what's kind of coming up in the, the immediacy on, on the show for me. Pavel, what's what about yourself?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I got Peter Lavender on tomorrow to finish the month, so that's exciting.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, I've never spoken to Peter yet on the podcast.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

That would be, I had him on once but on a Twitter space and there were a lot of people in there so I, I would, I, I've been wanting and trying to get him on one on one and he finally agreed. So we're, we're recording tomorrow. So I'm excited about that. I got to get ready for that later today.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Cool, Pavel. And one last thing. How can people find you watch your show and why should they like subscribe and leave a review?

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Well, Sikho podcast on pretty much every platform. If you want to subscribe, that's cool. If not, that's cool too. If you find value on the content. I would say that you got to look at the entire ecosystem of different people who are doing this and what I think that we're trying to do here is trying to create like more communion between people from the, from the community and show through example that it is possible to. To get along and work together and all that. So I would ask for you guys to check out Andy's podcast here, the Night Shift Others From Another Mother down to Earth, you know, the Dreamland Motel. There's a lot of stuff for everybody's taste and I think that everybody gives their own input and very valuable one at that to the topic. And that's what I want. I want for like people to check out everybody's stuff because everything has. Everybody has something important or interesting to say on this, I think.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Yeah, listen to everyone's opinion, but make up your own mind. And I know Pavel said you don't have to subscribe to his channel, but you do have to subscribe to mine. So if you're one of Pavel's listeners or reviewers, so jump over, hit the subscribe button, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I have a question for you.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Oh. Oh, go on.

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Uap.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

James, whose clip we played today is asking who do you guys have winning for the World Cup?

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Oh, I'm winning the whole tournament. Argentina or France? Sounds obvious, but it's one of those two.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, I think Argentina or Espana probably, but we'll see.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Can you see Argentina without the. The Mexican? See, I feel terrible now seeing it. Try and say it properly, but yeah, no, Argentina.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

I do say it properly. Yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Tell you who's not winning it, England or the usa. So you know.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Nope. Or Mexico.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Or Mexico.

[Ross Coulter (Referenced Speaker)]

Yeah.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

No, it's not. Or Brazil to be fair. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a messy guy. But listen folks, disclosure has been messy of recent and I don't think it's going to get any cleaner anytime soon to bring it back to UFOs. But thank you for listening. Thank you for watching again. Comments like subscribes reviews all make a huge difference to people. People like me and Pavel who are trying to do this to bring you information, entertainment, infotainment, a little bit of light relief or this might be quite a deep subject for you, but hopefully we cover the bases and yeah, we'll do this again soon, Pavel.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Yeah, let's do it again soon, man.

[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

Awesome. And we'll speak to you all very soon, folks. Thank you.

[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

Bye bye.

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[Pavel (Guest from Secoactivo Podcast)]

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[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

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[Andy (Host of That UFO Podcast)]

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