← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KH 479: Finding the Courage to Say “My Child Needs More Time” | Zan Tyler, The Zan Tyler Podcast
01:11:20
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- [00:01]
Jenny Uridge
Hello friends, and welcome back to the podcast. I'm especially excited you're here today because this episode kicks off something really special in honor of my brand new book, Homeschooling youg're Doing It Right Just By Doing it, which launches exactly one week from today on Tuesday, May 20th. We're celebrating with a five part podcast series focused on homeschooling. Over the next several weeks, I'll be joined by some truly incredible guests who are going to encourage and equip you in ways I can't wait for you to hear. Whether you homeschool are thinking about homeschooling or just love being intentional in how you raise your kids or set up your life, these episodes will have something for you. And what better way to start the celebration than with today's guest, the one and only Zan Tyler. Xan has spent decades advocating for homeschool freedom and pouring wisdom into families. She is someone I've looked up to for a long time and you're going to walk away from this conversation feeling uplifted and empowered. Now back to the book Homeschooling youg Doing It Right Just By Doing it is the book I wish I'd had when I started this journey. It's for the mom who wonders if she's doing enough, the dad who's unsure how to be involved, the grandparents who want to understand, and for anyone who needs extra reassurance. It's filled with truth, humor, and deeply practical encouragement rooted in over a decade of homeschooling, my own five kids, and listening to thousands of stories from this incredible community and beyond. If this podcast has ever been a help to you, I'd love for you to pre order this book today. Early support is more than just numbers. It tells my publisher that books like this matter, and it allows me to keep writing for families like yours. Maybe you can grab a second copy for a friend or suggest it to your homeschool group for a summer read. And if you're willing, leaving a review for the book or for this podcast makes a huge, huge difference in helping new families find these resources. Thank you for being here, for believing in this movement and and for walking this journey with me. Now let's dive into this incredible conversation with Zan Tyler.
- [02:04]
Unknown
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- [03:06]
Jenny Uridge
Our h o u r that's h.
- [03:09]
Unknown
O u r to 71326 message and data rates may apply to US addresses only. Your monthly gift can truly make a massive impact.
- [03:21]
Jenny Uridge
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Uridge. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I am so honored and so excited and thrilled and my heart just feels like relaxed to have my dear friend Zan Tyler back with us today. Zan, welcome.
- [03:37]
Zan Tyler
Oh, Jenny, I am so excited to be here. You are just one of my favorite people in the whole world. World feel the same about you.
- [03:44]
Jenny Uridge
What a treat. What a treat to know you. If you don't know Zan, she is a powerhouse. She is one of the original people that got homeschooling legal, helping that to be legal in the country and really brave and really an inspiring, courageous story. She has her own podcast called the Zan Tyler Podcast, which is about thriving in your homeschool. She speaks all over the country. We're going to be at two conferences. Not two conferences together, one together. But you have a different one that you're doing. We're going to be talking about that today too, where people can come and find you. But I'm so glad we're friends.
- [04:16]
Zan Tyler
Oh, me too, Jenny. You have made my life so much deeper and better.
- [04:21]
Jenny Uridge
That's so nice to say. We've just crossed paths at a lot of different places and so what we're going to be doing today is something that's really different and it's a little bit out of my norm and I've never done it before. But I have a new book coming out and it's called Homeschooling you're doing it right just by doing it. And Zan is one of the endorsers. And so I asked if she would come onto our show and just help to promote the book and to talk about it and to talk about her experiences. And this will be geared toward homeschooling. A lot of people are interested, A lot of people are doing it. But also, if you're not homeschooling, I do think that a lot of these premises can help with your family life and you can implement them in different ways in the weekends and in the summers, and maybe it helps you to grow toward homeschooling. A lot of people say that. They say I did 1,000 hours outside and it gave me the foundation I needed to know that I could really enjoy my kids and we could be together and they could learn and grow and thrive. So we're all on this path together. We just hope this is a building block for your path. So let's kick it off with this. I would love for you to introduce yourself because you started homeschooling in the 1980s, and I would love you to take us back to that first decision. Homeschooling in the 1980s, you essentially pioneered this movement. So can you take us back to that time period? What led you there and forging this path when there really wasn't one?
- [05:44]
Zan Tyler
Well, I would love to make it sound like I was some great visionary superhero, but that is not the case. My son, he was in kindergarten, he was turning 6, getting ready to go to first grade, and he was the only one in his class not reading. And there were two things I said I never, I would never do in college. One was teach and the other was have kids. And I was headed to law school when I graduated. And then my husband proposed and changed the course of my life. And now I have. On our third anniversary, we had our second baby or close to our third anniversary. And so now I'm 27 or 28 with a six year old and a four year old and know nothing about teaching because I stayed away from it totally in college on purpose. And so I, I decided I needed to consult with some of my friends. And one of my friends who had her master's in education said, zane, you just need to hold tie back a year. Little boys don't always learn to read when they're five or six or seven. And oh, if I just could go back and do those years over, knowing what I know now and knowing what you talk about in your book, Jenny. But I didn't know Those things. And so then my Bible study and prayer partner was an older mom than me. I mean, not old, but just older than me when she had her kids. And she said, zan, I taught in public schools, and I'm going to homeschool. Nat. Now, this is 1984, and the first time I heard that word, homeschool, all I could think of was, get me out of here. And I kept thinking, thinking, how, in a nice way, could I leave my friend's house and pretend like I never heard that word? All I could think about, well, I had heard of one homeschooling group that lived in the backwoods of Tennessee, and they bartered and didn't use money. That's what I knew about homeschooling. So she gave me this book, Homegrown Kids by Dr. Moore. And I thought, okay, I'm going to take this book and I'm going to throw it away when I get home. But out of courtesy to my friend, I will just browse it. Well, it captivated me, Jenny. I cannot explain it. This book captivated me. I had sort of been. I. I was an overachiever. And so I'd spent a lot of time studying in high school and college, but I was sort of captive to it, too, to the whole grades thing. And I just kept thinking, is there really a way that you could have an education with warm, responsive parents? Those were his words. Time for children to invest in service and their own interest and not be burned out. I'm thinking, whoa, this is too good to be true. And so I was so captivated. But then. Then it's 1984. We don't know one person in the world who homeschools. I mean, not one person. There's no homeschool legal defense association. Maybe it had started on the west coast, but it wasn't accessible to anybody, you know, to us on the east coast there. I didn't know anybody who homeschooled. I had to hire an attorney just to find out what the homeschooling law. I mean, there's no Internet. There are no support groups. There's just nobody to go to. So I just. I really felt like the Lord was calling me to homeschool. And I just remember telling him, no, I cannot do this. And so I just remember this encounter with God on the street corner in my neighborhood when I was up walking and praying early one morning. I ran home, got the boys dressed. We went to the public school near us. It's the same public school system I had been involved in. Good Schools. And I just walked in, I said, I need to hold Ty back.
- [09:22]
Jenny Uridge
Back.
- [09:22]
Zan Tyler
I have all this testing from a school psychologist. They said, great, Zan, we've got this taken care of. You. And I just went. And a few weeks later, we got a call from the principal saying, you can't put your 6 year old in my 5 year kindergarten program. I moved him up and I said, well, your staff guaranteed I'm not putting him in the first grade. I knew he wasn't ready. And then he's. And. And I said, private schools are filled. So I called my principal. Oh, I'm making this way too long. I called the principal. I called the principal of my high school who was now associate superintendent of education. And we had been good friends. And I just, I said, I need to hold Ty back. And I told him everything that had happened. And I said, can you write him a note? Because they used to do that. It was kind of avant garde to hold your boys back because of sports back in the, you know, the early to mid-80s. And he said, no, Zan, I'm just sorry, we can't do that. I'm shocked. So I pull out my trump card and I say, well, I guess I'll just have to homeschool Ty. I knew that what he would write that note. And he said, well, Zanda, school district's gotten lenient with that kind of thing. What I found out was in the history of the district, they had approved one person for one year and she was a certified teacher. So this set us on this journey. I had to turn in application to my school district that was about a couple inches thick. It was a 36 week syllabus. I had to have letters of recommendation from a neighbor, pastor, doctor, you know, whoever. And. And so we went through all of this and the school district turned me down. So I called my attorney back and I asked him, so what should I do? And he said, well, you have to appeal to the state board of education and you need to know they're going to rubber stamp what the school district did so you'll end up in family court. And I'm saying, okay, Lord, I told you this was the worst idea I've ever heard. So I decided to take matters into my own hand. And the school superintendent had been a friend of my mother's. They were colleagues, I guess when he was getting his PhD, she observed her fourth grade classroom. My mom was an excellent teacher. So I knew Dr. Williams and I called him up and I said, Dr. Williams, this is Ann Tyler. I have A problem? Oh, I said, oh, I'm civil. Peter's daughter, I have a problem. Can I come see you? He said, oh, honey, I'll clear my calendar. This is a friend. So I go down there and I tell him I wanted to hold tight back. They said yes, they said no. Then private schools are filled, you know, yada yada yada. School board turned me down. And I just thought he would say to me, well, Zan, you obviously love your son. Let's see what we can do to make this situation right. And he looked at me and he said, if you continue down this path of homeschooling, I will put you in jail for truancy.
- [12:01]
Jenny Uridge
Wow.
- [12:02]
Zan Tyler
I still, I mean this has been 41 years now and I still can close my eyes, Jenny, and I see the office and I feel my absolute panic. But you know, it sort of became my Patrick Henry moment. And I said, well, Dr. Williams, you'll just have to put me in jail. And I got up and I left. And we lived three miles from my parents and a quarter of a mile from Joe's parents. And we had not told anybody we were planning to homeschool. I thought, you know, well, one day they'll notice nobody's getting on the school bus at our house to explain it. But I had to go visit my parents and my dad was pretty prominent in the community where we live. And I, it would say John Peter's daughter. The newspaper would say John Peter's daughter goes to jail, not peon homeschool moms. And Tyler goes to jail. So I went by to tell mom and dad, you know, and mom and dad, I'm homeschooling. Ty, don't ask me too many questions, I can't answer them. You know, there was no research, there's nothing, no groups, nothing to fall back on. And I said the school board turned me down in Richland county to Richland School District 2. And Charlie Williams just threatened to put me in jail. In my hearing is it was either the next week or the week after and I didn't want you to read about it in the newspaper. And with that I left. And all of a sudden I'm hysterical just thinking about all the ramifications. And so to make a long story short, I had worked for a senator from South Carolina back in the 70s. It was the first year of the 18 year old vote and I was female to boot. And I had been governor of Girls State, so I had always loved politics and even politically involved in high school. So I traveled the state, you know, speaking for him and done commercials. And so my dad was speaking at a hospital function. He was chairman of the board of the Baptist Hospital System in South Carolina. He was speaking at a function with his senator's wife. And he said, zan's in trouble. What's the senator going to do? And so he actually flew down on Friday from Washington and walked into Charlie Williams office and said, charlie, you need to approve Zan Tyler's program. We looked into it, it's legal, and that's it. And so we. I got a call from the chairman of the committee for the state board handling my hearing to assure me everything was fine, to please come to the hearing. They just all wanted to meet Joe and me. And I really didn't care if anybody meant it or not. I was so relieved not to be going to jail. So, yeah, so we were approved for that first year of homeschooling. And we thought it really was just to get tire ready for the first grade. That was my great vision. But we had circumstantially on the outside, we had a pretty awful year. Policemen would routinely ride up and down our road. We lived in a little cul de sac community, presumably to make sure my car was in the driveway and my children were inside. We had neighbors who wouldn't speak to us. We had people at church who wouldn't speak to us, family members. You know, it was. This is 19.5 out George Orwellian. This is 1984. And you know, it was awful. But the things that happened inside my home with my kids, you know, I was a stay at home mom, but my kids had been in preschool and kindergarten since they were three, two or three. And I couldn't believe it, Jenny. I couldn't believe the difference in them. I couldn't believe the difference in our dynamics. And so we decided to homeschool one more year. And that was when I guess homeschooling was maybe beginning to grow a little bit. And I'll. I'll wrap this all up, but that, that started my involvement in homeschooling as a civics responsibility, I guess. And that's when I started lobbying for homeschooling legislation. A neighbor of mine was the head of a school state agency and he came knocked on my door one night at 11 because he had been working late. And I thought, this is the Department of Social Services coming to get my kids. Because anything out of the ordinary, I mean, we were always waiting for the other shoe to drop, you know. And so when I opened the door and it was Bill Clement. I've never been so relieved in my life. And he said, sam, the state department of education is getting ready to promulgate regulations that will say you have to have a college degree and only use state approved text to, to teach at home. And so those were fighting words. And that started the whole lobbying thing. And eight years later, after many, many lawsuits and legislative battles, most of them lost. We won a huge victory in South Carolina in 1992.
- [16:48]
Jenny Uridge
What a story. What a story. And I think if people are listening, they really can look at the way the world is now and be very grateful that if you are wanting to make that choice for your child, the groundwork has been laid and abundantly laid. There are so many opportunities. And even since COVID I think that the stigma against homeschoolers has really changed. So we're in just such a different place. I want to point out a couple things based off of what you said in your story. One of the things that you said was when I was asking about the courage and you said, well, you know, it wasn't courageous really or you know, this type of thing, but you started with this. My child needs. My child needs another year. That's what he needs. That's all he needs is another year. And I feel like at some point, Zan, in all of that story, and there was obviously, there's so much more, right? This is a nutshell and you're kind of glossing over like meeting with these people. And as a mom, you can feel the nerves going in to meet with someone asking for permission for anything.
- [17:46]
Zan Tyler
I know. Asking permission to do the best thing for my child. You know, if I could go back as my older self to this 28 year year old mom, younger self, but, well, the Lord knew what he was doing.
- [18:02]
Jenny Uridge
But that is part of life, like, you know, it does. It doesn't exist. So you have to ask permission. I hate asking for permission. I hate asking for anything. You know, it puts you in this, like you feel awkward and what if they say no? It's just really nerve wracking. And there's the things about the truancy and all of this. So you started with this basis of my child needs. But you really could have at any point along the lines and just been like, whatever, he'll probably learn to read in the first grade. I'm just gonna drop it. It's too much to me. That is very courageous. I mean, you just kept going for it. And I think that that's such an example for everybody else. But in Talking with all of these homeschool moms, and you're out and you're speaking at conferences. You have your own podcast, the Zan Tyler Podcast. What are some of the things that you're hearing from mothers, from families? My child needs. My child needs more time. My child needs a smaller class size. What are you hearing from the people that you're talking to and interacting with?
- [18:56]
Zan Tyler
You know, I would say at the basis of everything, all kids are crying out for time with their parents, space to learn and breathe, flexibility and freedom in terms of scope and sequence. Like, so what if a kid learns to read at 4, 8, or 12, right when they're ready? Unless there's an issue there, and we can talk about that later, but when they're ready, they'll read. And the flexibility. I think if there's one word that makes homeschooling powerful, it's flexibility. Because a child is free to learn to read when they're ready to learn. We wake up in the mornings and you feel like schoolwork is going to be a disaster. You have the flexibility to take the day off. We encourage moms now to interview their kids at the beginning of every school year and ask, what's one thing you'd love to study this year? If you could take three field trips, where would it be? If you wanted to visit two people, who would that be? And go see a site, what would that be? And then on those days where you wake up. I read this book once, I digress, called the Brilliant Idiot. I think his name was Abraham Schmidt, and He had a PhD, but he was very learning disabled growing up in a primitive senior school in Canada. And he was beaten when he didn't know the answers. So he writes this book that's so encouraging for all people in education. And the one thing he said was, some days I wake up and I know I have this brain fog. I know nothing good academically is going to happen this day, but I know that there are all kinds of other things that can happen. And so I just know after homeschooling for 21 years, you just wake up some days and you think, if we don't have a change of scenery or change of pace, today is going to be a disaster. So if you've interviewed your kids at the beginning of the school year and you have all those, then, then you just say to them, pick out one of these things. You know, you just let your kids go, take turns. What one of these things do we want to do today to redeem this time and have a really glorious day out in the world doing something. And so, you know, I just think flexibility in learning, flexibility and schedule flexibility and being able to see serve others. I just think that's what all kids need. But especially in this crazy social media world and you address it all so well in your book. They need safety, they need safe spaces to learn and be themselves. They need outside, lots of time outside, away from screens. I just love homeschooling because of the way kids grow up. One educator wrote in a book, I could wish I could remember the name of the book. He homeschooled Homeschooled so his kids could fashion a self far from the matting crowd. You know, there's just homeschooling is just a glorious way to grow up, you know, without the pressures of life crushing them at too early in age. I sound melodramatic. I just love homeschooling and I love your book. I just love your book.
- [22:12]
Jenny Uridge
Thank you so much, Dan.
- [22:13]
Unknown
I do.
- [22:13]
Jenny Uridge
I think that it's. I mean, I think that kids are crushed.
- [22:16]
I think there are a lot of.
- [22:17]
Kids that are crushed. Not all, but I think a lot of kids are crushed. There's a crushing weight of performance and the pressures of screens and that type of thing and combined with the lack of play. So if a parent is listening and they feel nervous about taking the leap. You started with my child needs. And I think anybody listening could fill in the blank. My child needs. They need to be away from the bullying, they need to be away from the pressures. You know, they need to be able.
- [22:41]
Zan Tyler
To see a year to read. That's right.
- [22:44]
Jenny Uridge
And what's interesting, I think, is that anybody listening could see your story and say you started with my child needs. And then without there being a path forged, you forged your own. And now you have all of this larger perspective and a different vision of education to begin with. So you grew with it. You started with a very. Is a very simple thing. My child needs one more year to read. That's it. We're going to do this for one year. Okay, maybe two. That's it. That's all we're going to do. But it expanded to be something that was so much bigger.
- [23:18]
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- [24:54]
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- [24:56]
Unknown
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- [26:10]
Jenny Uridge
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- [27:29]
Can we talk about this part? So one of the things in the book, the premise of the book is that by pulling out of a system, by pulling out of a systematic system.
- [27:38]
Zan Tyler
Right? Right.
- [27:39]
Jenny Uridge
By pulling out of that, there are a lot of things that you are doing, right? Simply by doing that.
- [27:44]
Zan Tyler
Yes.
- [27:44]
Jenny Uridge
And especially in day and age, that is the main premise of the book. And what are those things? And why, as a society, are we not really talking about those things very much? And one of the things is that when you pull out of that system, the adult world is more accessible to you through your parents. And so you are modeling to your kids how to craft a life, how to work through grief, you know, how to grow into change. Whereas when you're in the system, you don't see any of that. When I was a kid growing up, and I would imagine you would relate, you're not a part of the lesson planning, you're not a part of the scope in the sequence. You're not a part of, oh, my teacher had a bad day. What is she going to do? How is she going to make it through? You're not a part of any of.
- [28:24]
Zan Tyler
That or real life circumstances.
- [28:27]
Jenny Uridge
Right? Right. So one of the things that you did, and this wouldn't have even been a part of your educational philosophy because you're just trying to make it through, but one of the things that you did is, is you modeled courage in front of Your children now I would imagine they probably didn't get the full story of everything till they were grown and growing. But over the years they know that their mother stood in the gap not only for them, but also for generations of children to come. So can we talk about this piece of modeling and what that does for kids when they get to see that their parent. Whether it's that, whether it's you're fighting for something that you believe in, whether it's you're trying something new that no one has done before, whether you're doing something and you're kind of isolated for it or you're very isolated for people don't talk to you, but you stick with your convictions. What does that do for a child?
- [29:20]
Zan Tyler
Well, I will tell you our story because it's actually a story I think in many, many ways of modeling because from 1984-92 we were either as a family involved in a court battle or legislative battle every year. Lizzie wasn't born until 1987, so she missed out on some of it. You know, just being a ba. Not, not here then being a baby and a toddler. But the boys really grew up at the state house with me. And I have so many funny stories about things that happened and that they learned. First of all, I have to tell you, sometimes I would just go home and weep. I mean I love books. And so I had this curriculum closet Joe built me in the house just to put all my books in, you know, and I. But I would go in that room and just cry sometimes at night because of the book work we missed. And I don't mind books in homeschooling, I love books. But we were missing a lot of days and, and I'll just, I'm just going to throw this in because this is one of the biggest lessons I learned. Ray van der Lijn, who is a Ph.D. i think I can't remember in what, but he's an academic and he said the books we choose are important, there are scope and sequence. But the interruptions God brings into our kids lives, that's his curriculum for them. And so God was interrupting my kids lives with all this training in legislative and legal work. So a few funny things that happen that just show the power of modeling. Ty was probably 10. We were down at the state house. We're walking up to the stairs to lobby and this older man walks by and I'll call him Smith out just to protect the innocent. He says, senator Smith, how are you? And Senator Smith looks at Ty and says hey Ty, buddy, I'm doing great. How are you? And then he said, ty, I can't get that guy to vote for our homeschooling bill. How do you know him? Ty just is one of those people. He just knows everybody, everywhere he goes. And, and so he runs up, he says, I'll be back. I'll be right back, mama. And he runs up and he grabs Senator Smith by the hand and he says, senator Smith, you need to meet my mom. She needs your vote. And she is so sweet. You should talk to her. And so he brings her him back down the stairs and, and you know, Senator Smith says, then come see him, see me in my office. I think I can help you out. But this is how we spent our life. We sat through a lot of court hearings. Mike Ferris, the founder of hslda, was down there a lot. He really impacted my son John. They just saw so many things. And so to fast forward, my middle son John ended up going on to law school. And two years ago, he was appointed as chief legal counsel for the State Department, Department of Education. And now here's a young man who has never been in a public school system, a classroom, all four of his kids are being homeschooled. And God has put him in this position and he has done a great job. But the thing just this whole modeling comes full circle because we were having our homeschool day at the Capitol. It was the first year John was in office, not in office, appointed as legal counsel. And he said, mom, come on up. I want to show you something. So we went up to the superintendent's office, Ellen Weaver, who's our fabulous Superintendent of Education. And he said, things don't change in bureaucracy a lot. And he said, this is the desk where you were probably sitting when Charlie Williams threatened you with jail. And I'm sitting in the chair. I mean, I'm sitting in the exact, exact position where Charlie Williams was. And all these. I hadn't been up there in 40 years. All these memories are flooding back and the, the battles and the persecution.
- [33:22]
Jenny Uridge
Okay, wait. Okay, so. So a 40 year time gap is someone sitting in the chair telling you, I'm putting you in jail if you keep going. And 40 years later, it is your son in that chair.
- [33:36]
Zan Tyler
And now he's not the superintendent. This is her office, but he's her chief legal counsel. And it was the chief legal counsel for the State Department of Education, the Attorney General's office in dss that made my life just a living terror for so many years. And then here is my son in that position. And a homeschool dad now is chief legal counsel for the Department of Social Services DSS. And so is to see this 40 year redemptive cycle, the modeling, the, you know, he grew up watching all of this, so, you know, he's really at home in the legislature. He's been going there since he was 4 years old.
- [34:23]
Jenny Uridge
Wow. And so for a parent listening in, I think that the majority of parents who homeschool and or who are considering homeschooling really look at the gaps. They look at the gaps like that because everybody has them. Your gap was I have to fight for this to be legal because it's not yet. And so you're taking a lot of time out of your day to day. I guess it's like as a, as a homeschool parent or as someone who's considering it, you want it to be perfect. You want to have the whole day, you want to have your whole schedule. You want it to, you know, lay it out and every single day. And we don't miss and we check all of the boxes. But probably for most people, their life is not like that. Things come up. Maybe they're working. Maybe they have to also work on the side in order to make ends meet. Maybe there's health conditions. Maybe they're caring for an aging parent. You know, maybe their home just flooded may. You know, I mean, there's so many things that come up. And your point is, you had days where you missed the seat work, and yet it didn't matter in the long term when you have to look at it over the long term, and that's biblical. You reap what you sow, but you reap in a different season than when you sow. The harvest comes later. And so what you're doing is you're having faith in all of those seeds that you're planting. And you have to learn how to be okay with imperfection. And it's not. I don't even think it's imperfection.
- [35:44]
Zan Tyler
Right.
- [35:45]
Jenny Uridge
Feels like imperfection. But it. You have to be you, like you said, with the flexibility and I know I interrupted you, I guess, but part of it is you do have to, I think so into yourself these different thoughts of educational philosophy. Because if you don't have them because you grew up in a system or because maybe you were homeschooled but you didn't quite catch what was the philosophy or what was the reasoning. Like, you've talked about already several books. Like, you talked about A Homegrown Kids by Dr. Moore. You talked about the brilliant idiot. And I would say it's the same for me. You have to have these inputs that remind you that an afternoon spent building Legos is education.
- [36:25]
Zan Tyler
That's right.
- [36:26]
Jenny Uridge
Or an afternoon in the courtroom is as much of an education as is a textbook.
- [36:32]
Zan Tyler
And. And life, I mean, life is very educational, and you meet people of all ages, from all walks of life, which is the other thing I love. But, you know, another aspect of our story is. Was just that Lizzie grew up. There are always cameras in our great room or living room because there was always another crisis of homeschooling. And. And she left one day, and she says, mom, I think I've done more math with a camera over my shoulder than I have done by myself. But that gave her. She began to understand the role of the media and how important it can be. And so she watched that when I'm trying to think, what year? 1999. So she would have been, like 12 years old. They flew me up to do a spot on the Today show with Katie Couric about homeschooling. And she. She just. Lizzie was a keen observer, and so that really gave her this real passion for the importance of media and how media frames the issue and reports the news. So she's, you know, today. I mean, that's her calling. She's an executive producer with a large news agency. You know, it's amazing. We think that what they see in childhood doesn't matter, but it does matter.
- [37:52]
Unknown
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- [38:09]
Jenny Uridge
That's right.
- [38:09]
Unknown
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- [40:17]
Jenny Uridge
Okay, true story.
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- [41:32]
Zan Tyler
I'll never forget the first large family I ever came in contact with. We had moved to Andover, Massachusetts. And the boys were like John was. They were one in three. And this woman had 12 kids and she sewed for people during her nap time. And I mean, I'm blown away because I can't manage two babies, you know, but it really taught me that what your children see you do, they do. And I wish they had seen me garden more and, you know, be this beautiful home decorator. That is not. I'm not a visual person at all. I am a total, totally auditory person. But they witnessed that world of civics and the law and media and those types of things. And so it was really. Did I handle everything correctly? Absolutely not. I mean, as, as a mom, you just do the best with what you've got and you trust God. I believe he's the great gap filler, but it's amazing. Just the power. I think that's the one thing I loved about John Taylor Gatto's books, is he was always about what happens in daily living to prepare kids for life and how powerful that is.
- [42:55]
Jenny Uridge
Yeah. And John Holt said, and this is one of the quotes in, in homeschooling in my book that's coming out, he said, and this is one. I've memorized this, I've said it so many times. But he says adults must use the skills they have where children can see them. Children need to get some sense of the processes by which good work is done. And I feel like when you are in a school setting K to 12, you don't. That really does not happen. And I think that's probably one of the big misconceptions because when you pull yourself out of that system, you sort of think, well, there was one dedicated person who put seven to eight hours of dedicated work into this classroom in a day. And so I need to do that. I obviously need to have eight hours worth of plans, seven hours worth of plans every day that I prepare in this. When they're sleeping or something out of their sight, I have to prepare for them and then show up and basically run the whole thing. And obviously that doesn't work. I mean, no mother can do that and also have all the other jobs of the school, like the bus driver and the lunch lady and, you know, and you're cleaning and janitor and so if the counselor. Yeah, it feels like a failure in some ways, but it's a total different shift of philosophy.
- [44:07]
Zan Tyler
Yes, right. You can't compare the two and say that because you're doing this, you are not succeeding because it's a whole different way of looking at education. As a matter of fact, the chapter you are modeling in your book where. Oh, what's his name? John Holt from Brain Freeze. That quote, I just, I circled that because it is so true. Elizabeth Elliot calls it profanity when we make light of something sacred. And I think time with parents is sacred. But we just, in our culture, we've just decided that's not important at all. And one of the things J. John Taylor Gato said is there's. I wish I had this written down. I'm sorry, I don't. Maybe I can find it for you later. But he said there's been nothing so harmful toward the parent child relationship as the effect of compulsory attendance on the family. You know, just that constant separation from each other, just the power of being together to me makes homeschooling, just the dynamics of homeschooling so important.
- [45:16]
Jenny Uridge
And that's, I mean, that's before you pick your curriculum, that's before you figure out your schedule. It's before you decide if you're doing a co op or not. It is embedded, these things are embedded in the homeschooling life that you will have. You are guaranteed to have a stronger parent child relationship. And I just read a book by Dr. William Stickshrid and Ned Johnson and it's called the Self Driven Child. They've got a workbook, they've got some fantastic books and they are very clear that that is the key, the key to long term success for these kids is to have a strong parent child relationship. And John Taylor Gatto is. And he passed away. I know you got a chance to meet him. I was like, I'm always like, I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous. And. But he talks about how then the homework is like these tentacles that reach out from the school day and continue.
- [46:02]
Zan Tyler
Yes.
- [46:02]
Jenny Uridge
To subvert. Yeah, Parent child. And I just talked to this woman. This is something really interesting I'd never thought about. I just talked to this woman named Barbie Rivera. She wrote a book called Enough is Enough. She had a kind of, you know, in some way it's a similar story where she sent her six year old to school and within two weeks they were saying he can't learn and he doesn't know, you know, the difference from 6 and 9. He, you know, he's in kindergarten or first grade, and we need to put him on medication, and he's got some disabilities. And this was in the 90s. And she was like, what? He's fine. You know, he's bilingual. We have no problems with him. She's like, he'll learn the difference between 6 and 9. You know, probably this school year. She. And she said, she made a joke, I'll take him off all the banking, you know, like, I won't have him write any more checks. You know, she's trying to make light of it. And she said they were. So she ended up pulling him out. But what she said was, he was coming home in the 90s as a first grader, kindergartner, with all these homework packets. And she said, I wouldn't have thought about this. It really affected her relationship with her younger children because she's sitting at the table now every afternoon trying to get him through these homework packets that he can't do. And it's very frustrating. And it affected his relationship with his siblings because that's more time. They're so excited for their big brother to come home and get off the bus, and then he's got an hour and a half of a homework packet.
- [47:25]
Zan Tyler
You know, my mother, we lived in South Carolina, and she had some parents come down from the state of New York. They were real upset with her because she didn't give homework. And she said, listen, if I can't teach a fourth grader everything they need to know between eight and three, you need to fire me. They don't need homework. I'm using that time wisely because she really wanted to protect that time at home for family and children to be together.
- [47:57]
Jenny Uridge
Yes.
- [47:57]
Zan Tyler
And. And I hear so many people who decide to homeschool because they're having to do three and four hours worth of homework at night to make up for what, you know, they can't. The kids can't get in the classroom for whatever reason. And they said, we may as well homeschool, do that during the, you know, have our kids at home during the best hours of their day. You can do the learning in the morning, and basically, especially with elementary school kids, then you've got all your afternoon and evenings free for play and service and, you know, all the things we should be doing for other people. I don't know.
- [48:32]
Jenny Uridge
Yeah, so it's. It goes along with the. My child needs. My child needs time to play. They shouldn't have to have their afternoon filled up with homework, especially if they Were already in the school. I mean, can you imagine even adults, like, we couldn't. That's so tricky. My child needs time with their siblings. My child needs time with a parent. You know, all of these things are things that the children need. So let's talk about this thing because I think it's really brave, you know, to say my child needs another year, Especially in, you know, parenting is. Can be so competitive.
- [49:01]
Zan Tyler
Yes. Yes.
- [49:03]
Jenny Uridge
I actually think that's a really big deal. You're like, obviously he's going to be taller than all the other kids, you know, so you're going out on a limb to say, my child needs more time. Whereas we're in this sort of rat race of parenting where you're like, hoping your child can be. My child is 2 and they can read. You know, it's like there's that pressure. Yeah. So what. What advice do you have for moms who feel this pressure for grade level. Grade level expectations, which to me are. I. I would say they're arbitrary. Being an educator myself, I think, you know, there is some scope and sequence and they've, you know, they've tried to make sense of it to move a group of children through, but just because, like, I. I've always said, okay, so in the kindergarten, because I tried to do it that way. The kindergarten scope and sequence here in Michigan for social studies is to understand between. It says, distinguish between yesterday, today, and tomorrow. That's one of the things that the kid needs to learn in kindergarten. And they're like, well, what if they learn that when they're three? What if they learn it when they're eight? Yes. Does it really matter when. So what. What would you say to the mom? There's really two big pushes. One is that earlier is better, and two is that you're behind your kid's behind.
- [50:13]
Zan Tyler
I just remember Andrew Putawa saying in one of his reels one time, he said, behind what? I mean, what are. Behind who? What are we so worried about anyway? I don't know why that made an impression on me, but. Okay, Jenny, tell me your question again.
- [50:31]
Jenny Uridge
Okay, so. So talk to the mom. Because when you start off and then you're in those early years, well, people ask you questions and they quiz your kids. Oh, my goodness.
- [50:41]
Zan Tyler
And if one more person came up to me when I was homeschooling my boys and they'd say, can you name all the presidents of the United States? I mean, they're like 7 and 5. I looked at them and I said, can you? It really is amazing when you homeschool people? Not so much anymore, but just people thought they had the right to quiz my children on all manner of academic subjects. But, you know, I would just say every child needs an advocate. And you have got to be willing to be your child's advocate. And if he or she needs more time, if they need to be held back, if they just need to be home where they learn at their own pace. Listen, when a child is 30, nobody's going to say how old were you when you learned how to read? Or what was your SAT score. Those things, by and large fall, by the way. And so every child has a unique timetable. I would say the sequence is even more important than the scope because if you get the sequence right with a child, they can handle the scope in the scope and sequence. You know, it's just a matter of giving it to them at the right time. And every child has. I am such a believer in strength based learning, Jenny and I feel like we could cut out so much turmoil in a child's life if we focus on their strengths.
- [52:15]
Jenny Uridge
It's good. So reminder, you know, this is about individual timelines and honoring that in your own child's life. And I do think that then you grow as an adult and you see that in your story as well. This is a really beautiful journey of growth together because then you can honor your own individual timelines too. What if you didn't learn it? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of parents are like, wow, I didn't really learn it. I'm not really good at fractions. I don't really remember the, you know, the common denominator. And when you add and subtract and multiply and it's so confusing, then this is your timeline. Maybe Your timeline is 29. To learn that when you really get it, you know, maybe Your timeline is 33, when you really get to understand those things. Physics lessons. This is what I believe. I believe that God made it so that we get three passes through. You get that pass through as a child where you get to learn and grow and be excited. And you get a second pass through as a parent because you get to grow and learn again alongside your child and fill in some holes. And you get a third pass through as a grandparent and maybe maybe a fourth pass through as a great grandparent. Not hardly any mammals have grandparents that are involved. It's like a really special thing. I learned that recently. All right, let's hit just one or two more topics here about things that these parents are already doing right. Just by choosing to homeschool. And one is one that you talk a lot about, you inherently are slowing down. And so you talk about, stop, drop, and take a break. This is one of the things you advocate for. But this is a world where it feels like a rat race. I mean, you kind of feel like you got to go, go, go, go. You're falling behind. Falling behind. Look, we're not going to keep up with the technology. It is light years ahead of, you know, where we're at, and it's going to continue to be that. So can you talk about the beauty of slowing down?
- [53:54]
Zan Tyler
Well, yes and no. I think we really did a lot with the kids, but they were the things of our own choosing. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, we were involved in a lot of things. We had service projects every year. The kids had their own interest that led us to different activities.
- [54:17]
Jenny Uridge
I like that. Okay, so you're not necessarily slowing down. This is a full life. But what you are doing is you're filling it with what you want to fill it with. And what's your kids want?
- [54:28]
Zan Tyler
Yes, yes. I mean it. To me, it's really a definition of abundance. I. You know, I. So this is my example. You know, when you're in elementary school and the Christmas break is coming and nobody can wait, and you sing Hark the herald angel shout three more days till we get out and. And you're doing the count. A Christmas vacation.
- [54:50]
Jenny Uridge
Yeah.
- [54:50]
Zan Tyler
So one year, I. The boys were like 8 and 10 or something. I said, hey, do y' all know that song? Hark the herald angel shout and it's two days, and we're going to take, you know, three and a half weeks off for Christmas. And they looked at me like, what planet are you from? We're fine. We're not counting down the day.
- [55:11]
Jenny Uridge
Yeah. I mean, I really love that you brought that up, because you know what? You repeat and you repeat and you repeat. It becomes ingrained in you as a habit. And I went from being in the classroom From K to 12 to becoming a teacher, and you start to live your life counting down the days till you get out, and it becomes that your life becomes sort of like this countdown always, how many more days until. How many more days until. And you're just kind of like, getting through that is a monumental difference of a way of living.
- [55:48]
Zan Tyler
And, you know, Jesus said, I came to give you life and life abundantly. And he didn't say, I came to give you abundant life, your whole Life, except for 8 to 4 between the times when you're 6 and 18 years old, 8 and 4 in the afternoon, you know, I mean, it's not that every minute of every day we had was fun and conflict free. I don't mean that at all. But our lives were filled with richness and play and solitude and service and schoolwork and it was, I don't know. I think people talk about the rhythms of life sometimes. I'm not the greatest person to talk about routine, but life does have its rhythms.
- [56:29]
Jenny Uridge
Yeah. How about one more? I feel like self reliance is a really big deal. And the increase of kids who are failing to launch this is sort of the part of the world that I'm talking about a lot is kids that are not succeeding in college. They get there and they're just playing video games the whole time, but they don't know how to do their laundry and they don't know how to build relationships. And it's really rising. One of the things that I have in this book in homeschooling is that we're trying to teach kids how to learn self reliance. But I think that in a homeschool setting, they sort of inherently have it.
- [57:08]
Zan Tyler
Yes.
- [57:08]
Jenny Uridge
You know, like a three year old, they, you know, they want to put their boots on and they want to, they do it and then I just think they never lose it.
- [57:16]
Zan Tyler
Well, so here is, I'm going to give you the end of the story a little bit and tell you the things that I Learned after a 21 year homeschooling journey as I've visited with people. People. So I've had a chance to talk to a lot of college admissions counselors. And now, you know, I travel nationally and internationally with homeschooling speaking. And some of the things that have, that I have read and have been said to me by admissions counselors are these, these homeschool kids come to college and they are not burned out. They are full of what I would call an intellectual vitality because they haven't been in an institutional setting for 12 years. They come and they're independent learners. One said to me, zan, these are the kids we thought would be tied to their mother's apron strings. And how is it they come and they say, if you give me my syllabus, I'll be in class and I'll get the work done. He said, they exhibited so much independence. And the third thing is, okay, so we get that they're bright, we get even that they're independent, but how can they come on the campus and be leaders? Because we would Think these are the kids who have their heads buried in the sand. But it's the opposite because these are the kids who have been watching their parents model life for them and they've been involved in real life activities. John graduated. John finished high school when he was in the 10th grade. And this was when people didn't homeschool in high school. I mean it was rare. And so ties in the ninth grade, John's in the seventh grade and Lizzie's in the first grade and she refuses me to let her hold her back. So I've got to teach reading and I've got to do my first year of high school and I'm having a nervous breakdown. I mean seriously. And so I had this brainstorm and I looked at John and I said, John, you are now a middle school graduate and you are in the ninth grade. And so, you know, with the stroke of a pen, John and Ty are both in the ninth grade. And so by the time Ty graduates, John went through his graduation ceremony with our homeschool organization two years later. But he had two years to do internships and study what he wanted to do and, and travel. I mean he, he was a teen pact intern, he worked in the state senate, he worked in the US Senate for six weeks. So he just had this glorious time of really living life. So Jenny, I forgot what we're, what we were talking about.
- [59:47]
Jenny Uridge
We're talking about self reliance.
- [59:49]
Zan Tyler
Oh, okay. Yes. And so, but see these kids, they have so many. So, so that's college admissions counselors. I just have to tell you one more story about meeting a two star general and what he said about homeschoolers. So Joe and I went on this army educators tour and we were able to meet. I asked if I could speak with the two star general in charge after dinner and he was very nice. He spoke with me and so I said, General, in prior years the military has given homeschoolers a really hard time. You wouldn't take our diplomas, you made us get GEDs. They wouldn't qualify right off the bat for officer training school. And I want to know why are my husband and I here on this army educators tour? Why are you interested in homeschoolers now? And he was very gracious. He said, well, zan in Covid, we started doing our graduations for, for new recruits, the classes they take to place them online. And our most difficult class is the explosives class. I can't remember the exact name, but it involves physics and it involves chemistry. He says very difficult. So in all the Graduation ceremonies, I would recognize the top three graduates. And so I said to the, I think these were all young men. The young man who graduated third in the class. Where did you go to school? I'd like to recognize your high school. Well, I was homeschooled. Well, congratulations to your parents. He said, I get to the salutatorian and I say, well, where did you go to high school? And he said, I was homeschooled. And he said, by congratulations to your parents. And why was I not shocked when the first graduate was also a homeschooled student? And he said, you know, ding, ding, ding. I had that moment where I felt, thought, I'm missing the boat. We're missing the boat now, aren't the right. Now recruitment for all the four branches of services are up. But we have been through like an eight year slump where there have not been enough recruits to fill the positions. And so there's a test called ASVAB or asvab, asvab that students can take in high school. And they just weren't getting enough students who could do well on those tests. But homeschoolers, that's when they started to really recruit homeschoolers because homeschoolers were doing well and they tended to be more physically fit because they're out playing a lot. And then if you read things like the Kiplinger Report, which is a business magazine, years ago there was an article and this man, one of their authors was saying, do you worry about home hiring homeschooled students? You shouldn't. There are some of the most self motivated students you will ever meet. And so I feel like the end story is so good and it's because of the unique perspective that homeschooling gives our kids growing up. That was way too long.
- [62:41]
Jenny Uridge
It was not long. It really matters. I wish I could find my notes here. I interviewed this man. Hold on one second. I found it. I found it. All right, all right, all right, here we go.
- [62:53]
Zan Tyler
Okay.
- [62:53]
Jenny Uridge
I interviewed this man just yesterday who wrote this book. It's really popular. I mean, it's like sold a quarter of a million copies. It's called the Five Types of Wealth. And you know, it's not just money wealth, it's like social wealth and physical wealth and all of these things. And this was his best career advice. Now this is someone who's got like books in the airport.
- [63:13]
Zan Tyler
I know. Isn't that the dream?
- [63:14]
Jenny Uridge
It is the dream.
- [63:15]
Zan Tyler
They have books in the airport.
- [63:17]
Jenny Uridge
This is it. He says at every. This is so good, Zan. And this is it. This is what you are doing by homeschooling. Even before you choose anything, before you choose your curriculum and your schedule, your kids are going to have to be self reliant because there's going to be innately parts of the day that they have to figure out on their own. It's not going to be laid out, rolled out like a carpet in front of them. So he says you build a reputation for figuring things out at every step of your career. You will be given a lot of tasks that you have no idea how to complete. There is nothing more valuable than someone who can just figure it out, ask the key questions, do some work, get it done. If you do that, people will fight over you.
- [64:02]
Zan Tyler
That is amazing. That is amazing. Okay, the five types of wealth. I just wrote that down.
- [64:09]
Jenny Uridge
There's so many things that these parents are doing right. And I want to say as sort of a last thing and then I'm going to let you help, maybe wrap us up here doing this weird thing about interviewing someone about my own book, but I love it. I actually really love it. It's really fun to talk about the topics that, you know, for me that I've been thinking about for the last decade plus. But you know, as you start to launch your kids and you were talking about all these things that your kids are going off and doing and they're leaders in this and they're leaders in that. I want to say that when your kids are little, it feels sad. Like you're like, oh gosh, at some point they're not going to be here and, and that's sad. And you're sort of, you know, it's like a bittersweet thing. But something that's really special about homeschooling, I think because you get such an abundance of time with your kids during those formative years is you are ready as the parent. It is this sort of slow process, I've always said, of passing the baton of dethroning yourself and just sort of becoming like the one that, that's the cheerleader on the side. And I think that's worth saying that, you know, obviously it's always hard to launch your kids and there's like the empty nest thing and all of that. But what I'm finding with kids that are, they're, you know, later teen years that, you know, mid to later teen years, I am just so thrilled for them, like, go, go do it. You know, you got the opportunity. Go, go. And that's what this Saheel says in this book. Dive through every cracked open door. Go. And I feel like there's less of a, you know, feeling like you want to hold them back because you missed out.
- [65:37]
Zan Tyler
Yes.
- [65:37]
Jenny Uridge
Or it happened so fast.
- [65:39]
Zan Tyler
Yeah, yeah. And you know, I want to be clear and say that I don't think I love my kids any more than any other parent in the world. You know, we are, most of us are born when our kids are born. We love them and we want the best for them. And so I, I just want to make sure I make, make that clear and that. And like Jenny said, there are all kinds of ways to implement the principles of her book if your kids are in a more traditional school setting. I just know that for me, each one of my children, I just feel like I had this full life with. They maybe wish sometimes our life wasn't so full together, I don't know. But you know, I just loved being with my kids. And I will tell you what I really love being with my grandkids. That has been such a blessing to me and I'm now we have grandkids that are getting ready to graduate from their home school and move on is really something. But you were talking about modeling, Jenny. My parents and Joe's parents were very involved in our kids lives as they were homeschooling. And Joe's parents weren't in favor of it, but they did love the kids. And then it was so sweet as our parents aged out. We just lost our parent, Joe's dad at 100 last year. And so we've had the boys, Lizzie. They've had grandparents for a very long time. They really impacted their lives. And as they got older it was so sweet to see my kids care for them. Ty, my oldest, was in medical device sales and he was able to choose doctors at several different junctures for our parents when they needed, when they really needed medical help. It was. And, and you know, John was a lawyer, my dad was a lawyer. Dad had helped him. And then John did a lot of legal work for dad when he got older and Lizzie was visiting. I mean it was just this, this life comes full circle and I just feel like there was so richness of the generations interacting.
- [67:45]
Jenny Uridge
Dan, can you leave us with one final message for parents that are homeschooling or considering homeschooling and they've got a lot of doubts. Can you just give them one final message of encouragement that they're doing better than they think?
- [67:57]
Zan Tyler
Okay, so this is going to be two part. So the first thing I want to say is I am Buying your book. I still am the on the board for a homeschooling organization that Joe and I started back in 1990 and we have a staff of like 16. I am buying everybody on our staff and our board your book, Jenny, because we all need to read it and we will all incorporate things in it in different ways in our lives. But it is, it is such a powerful book that will put a mind, a parent's mind at ease. And I love the, the way you talk in your book about all the things you bring to the table before you open the first book. That's what parents need to be aware of because we love our kids. So we're afraid we're going to ruin them or we're afraid they're going to be gaps that are too big to fill or we're afraid we're going to miss something so crucial it's going to ruin their lives instead of us blessing them like we want to. I'll never forget just crying and praying at 2 o' clock in the morning for one of my kids. And I mean, it was probably over algebra, I don't remember. And then I had this thought. First I thought, what is wrong with me? Why can't I teach this? And then I thought, what teacher ever was awake at 2 o' clock in the morning praying over me in tears? You know, we agonize over our children because we love them so much. We're the shepherd, we're not the hired hand. And so you bring, you do such a good job in your book of bringing to the table what is important in a home and what is important in a life well lived. And so I think one of the things I would say I'm just going to have your book on hand is read this book. You will have such a fuller understanding of the value of the home by the time you finish this book. You know, just the second thing personally for me is how quickly the years go by. I mean, now I not only have kids who have gone through high school and college, I've got grandkids that are starting to graduate from high school and move on to college and work. And it is this moment, this fleeting moment of realizing that the days can be long, but the years are short. So you don't want to miss your children's lives, you don't want to miss your grandkids lives. And I think one of the beauties of homeschooling is it gives you time to capture that abundant life together. But really all of the things you say in the book the modeling, providing multi age experiences you're offering freedom, you're leaving space for them. You're not afraid for your kids to be bored because they learn to take the reins of their own happiness. You know, all of these things are so important. And I would just, I, I would tell you I had just loved so much the time I've had with my kids and my grandkids and, and just to cherish, cherish all those moments. I know that's easy for me to say when you have six kids after seven, but it is, it's an abundant life. It's an abundant life.
- [71:13]
Jenny Uridge
But you know, I do think, I think you have to have the perspective. I mean, that's biblical. Teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom. It's biblical. It's biblical to look ahead and it's biblical to think what you might be considering in hindsight. And it's biblical, I think, and I think it's just wise to listen to people who have come before you and if they say it goes by so fast. And also look how well your kids did. Look how well they did without. They didn't even have a co op and there wasn't the Internet and there wasn't Kathy Duffy book reviews and you know, there wasn't online math. I mean there wasn't outschool, I mean without any of that. And with days where you cried in the closet here you have grandkids now that are about to graduate. So Zan, thank you, thank you for all that you did to help the homeschooling cause to grow. Thank you for all that you're doing now with your podcast and your speaking. You're going to be a FPEA and check and I'll make sure I'll put those in the show notes so people can come see you speak and keep track of where you're going because I know you speak a lot of places and you're out there spreading a message of hope and strength and courage through sharing your story. So thank you, thank you for endorsing my brand book. What an honor. It's right there in the front couple pages. You'll find it. Zan Tyler, and thank you for spending.
- [72:30]
This time with us.
- [72:31]
Zan Tyler
Well, Jenny, thank you so much. You're amazing. I love your book and thank you, thank you for, you know, you, it's this whole thing about the older women teach the younger women. But you have taught me so much and I am so grateful for your journey and the way it's impacted my life.
- [72:48]
Jenny Uridge
Thanks.
- [72:52]
Trey Tucker
Are you hungry for guidance about mindset, relationships, health, finances, career decisions and dealing with your past? I'm Trey Tucker, licensed therapist and speaker and host of Rugged, a podcast where I help young men and women navigate life's challenges and find solutions to help them live lives of service and meaning. In this podcast, you'll learn mindset strategies to harness your thoughts and emotions in ways that help you achieve your goals. I bring a blend of straight talk and empathy, and I'm open to addressing any topic and treating it and the people connected to it with respect and curiosity. Come join us. We have a space for you. Search for Rugged with Trey Tucker wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to hit the follow button so new weekly episodes will be delivered straight to your personal podcast feed. My hope is that this podcast will leave you feeling encouraged and empowered by to take charge of your life and close the gap between who you are and who you want to be.
- [73:53]
Dr. Edie Wadsworth
Hi dear one I'm Dr. Edie Wadsworth, your new favorite Christian life coach, and I want to invite you to the House of Joy podcast. If you're a woman over 40 or the daughter of one who wants to build a positive mindset, healthier habits and thriving relationships, this is the show for you. You we talk about personal growth, faith resilience, and creating a life you're obsessed with. So if you're tired of feeling stuck and ready to step into more joy and purpose, come join us. Listen now wherever you get your podcast.