← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 401: There’s More to Be Made of This | Justin McRoberts, It Is What You Make of It
00:57:49
Loading summary
Transcript148 lines
- [00:01]
Ginny Urch
Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life. At Capella University, our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own.
- [00:08]
Justin McRoberts
Deadline so you can learn at a.
- [00:10]
Ginny Urch
Time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you.
- [00:25]
Justin McRoberts
Think with Capella University.
- [00:27]
Ginny Urch
Learn more at capella. Edu welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch, I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and one of our all time favorite guests is back. Justin McRoberts. Welcome.
- [00:40]
Justin McRoberts
Hi. That's a great intro. Happy to be here.
- [00:43]
Ginny Urch
I was so touched by our last conversation in the books that you write. And one of the quotes that you said in that podcast is. And the podcast we did before, it came out in July.
- [00:54]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah, so.
- [00:54]
Ginny Urch
So it's been a bit of time. It's November now. It came out in July. It's episode 322. We are resting improperly, which comes from a really funny story. But one of the things that you said was rest is the opportunity for the goodness of my life to catch up to me.
- [01:08]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah.
- [01:08]
Ginny Urch
And people are just still sharing that. I mean, it's from a long time ago. You know how social media is back in July. How do you people even find that post?
- [01:16]
Justin McRoberts
Let's be honest. Yes.
- [01:18]
Ginny Urch
Every week people are sharing that one. Rest is the opportunity for the goodness of my life to catch up to me. You are a musician, a podcaster, a speaker, an author, a coach. You have courses and really overarching. You are a storyteller. Have you always been, have you always been a storyteller?
- [01:36]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah, I think the like, earliest memories I have of like social experiences, like I, I like. It's not even something I like being in front of people but like I like synthesizing information or situations and like relaying that. Like I've always liked to tell stories, whether it was to my parents or there's a, there's a really early memory my mom talks about at some point in the middle of one of their like parent parties, like around Christmas, they would have all the adults over.
- [02:06]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [02:06]
Justin McRoberts
And I got, climbed up onto a chair and started like telling jokes. So it's always been, it's always been part of who I am for sure is to kind of grab some, grab a joke or two and, or a story and get people's attention. It's always been there.
- [02:20]
Ginny Urch
Well, and what's interesting is you do such a wonderful job of weaving it. So you. You weave it in with spiritual truths and different spiritual lessons, and I'm always like, wow, how did he make that jump? But it's so seamless. And so I. I mean, I really am thankful that you came back on because I have liked your book so much.
- [02:37]
Justin McRoberts
Thanks.
- [02:37]
Ginny Urch
And the one I read most recently is called It Is what We make of It.
- [02:41]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [02:41]
Ginny Urch
Creating something great from what you've been given it is what you make of it. It's not what people normally say. No, they say it is what it is.
- [02:50]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [02:51]
Ginny Urch
And you say you hate that.
- [02:53]
Justin McRoberts
I do.
- [02:54]
Ginny Urch
That's right.
- [02:54]
Justin McRoberts
I hate that phrase because I think it gets us stuck. There are definitely places and experiences of powerlessness in life. I don't deny that. I do think those places of powerlessness are, for most of us, very few and far between. And so the phrase it is what it is is a way to. It's a way to kind of push off our power or to push off the opportunity we have to even make a small difference. Because we'll do this odd thing culturally where we'll celebrate or we'll want to champion, like, small differences or small changes or small movement, but then we'll also caveat that, like, kind of, you know, counterbalance that with. It is what it is. And my take is we don't get to do both things. We don't get to say that the small things matter and constantly say, or as often say, it is what it is. The small difference we make. You don't know where that goes. Those small differences are the seed of goodness. And I think in the book, I even get to. I mean, this is like. Well, our classic stories of cultural change are usually about small things. And so the Rosa Parks moment, if you know, for folks who are at all familiar with the civil rights movement, we're talking about this woman who got onto a bus and sat in a chair or sat in a seat on a bus that she wasn't supposed to sit in. That was it. That's what she did. Like, she didn't, like, organize a march of millions of people to Washington. She didn't, like, you know, she sat and it was this tiny little thing. But we talk about it now because that small act planted seeds of hope and imagination. So we don't get to have both things. We don't get to, like, champion those small things and then also say, it is what it Is because what she didn't say is. She did not say, well, institutional racism in the United States. It is what it is. What she said is, what can I do? What's the one little thing I can do? And I had this one little point of resistance and it set fire to people's hearts.
- [04:51]
Ginny Urch
What are some things that you think people use the. It is what it is thinking. Well, I'm going to tell you about my own, actually.
- [04:57]
Justin McRoberts
Oh, yeah, go ahead.
- [04:58]
Ginny Urch
That it made me think about. I. Almost exactly a year ago, it might even be today, I. I launched a book. A book came out of mine and it was my first sort of main book with an actual publisher. It's called until the Streetlights Come On. And I think it's. I mean, I think it's a great book. It's about how to make today good, but also by making today good that prepares our kids for tomorrow.
- [05:20]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [05:20]
Ginny Urch
Like, you can have both.
- [05:21]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah.
- [05:21]
Ginny Urch
You can have a full today that leads to a successful tomorrow, which I think is something that parents are struggling with. And it, you know, talking about screens and. Anyway, it just didn't do very well. And I don't know, I think there's a lot of things there, like, maybe I didn't do it right. Maybe it was a bad time. Maybe. Although I think it's such an important message and coming from a mom. Like, I have five kids right now. We're in the throes of dealing with screens. I've got teens down to little kids. So anyway, then I was talking to this guy, Hal Elrod, who has this thing called the Morning Miracle. And he said in his first year of books, he sold the same amount as I did. And then within two or three years, he sold like a million copies. It's huge expanse he kept with it.
- [05:59]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah.
- [05:59]
Ginny Urch
And I think I was in the. Well, it is what it is. Like, it didn't sell very well.
- [06:04]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [06:04]
Ginny Urch
But yours is. It is what you make of it.
- [06:06]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah.
- [06:06]
Ginny Urch
What are some other things that people use it is what it is for?
- [06:09]
Justin McRoberts
I think that's a great example. So something like book sales or like, we'll have a creative endeavor when we launched into the world. And it does. What's the word I want to use here? It does differently. It is numerically different than we thought it was going to be. That's what we'll say. This is numerically different. And then we settle into like. Well, that's how that went. Period. It is what it is. And then oftentimes with. Along specifically in book sales, let's just stay here. With sales of any kind, with book sales. I'm around authors enough that I know part of what comes, you know, the engine of it is, is it is what it is. But like the tractor trailer behind that engine is filled with things like blame and blame and blame shifting and anger and resentment. And like, it's. It's like, well, you know, it is what it is because the book industry is blah, blah, blah, blah. It is what it is and culture doesn't want to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It is what it is. And these other authors and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's. And like, that's the stuff that comes on the other side of it. What it is, what I make of it does, is it actually reorients that and says, okay, there are probably some circumstances that are leading to like, these numbers being the way they are. Like, maybe we dropped it at the wrong time. Okay, cool. That's all right. I'm going to be alive for a while and this book's not going anywhere. So what's the plan for tomorrow? What can I do with what I have? Or like, maybe I'm right and these other authors who are like crushing book sales and they do it regularly. Well, maybe there's a thing for me to learn then about how they do that and maybe I'm right. Maybe the book publishing world is kind of a disastrous mess on some level. Okay, maybe I'm right about that and you're probably right about that. So what can I learn about what they're doing so that I can maybe like strike a deal differently or do this differently next time instead of it just being this information that I point out and say, oh, look, these authors are blah, blah, blah. This book issue, like, what's the lesson I've learned? What can I do with the information I have? There's always another step we can take. I actually love this example because specifically with book sales, like, the book didn't exist until I made a decision to make a book. Sales don't happen unless I'm making a decision to continually make sales. It is what it is. It would have remained what it was in non existence had I not said, well, I'm going to make something of these ideas and these stories. So that engine should remain the perpetual engine of our creative endeavors. It exists because you chose to make it and put steps forward, keep that same focus, that same drive, that same creative impulse all the way through the sales part of it. So I love that example. That's one example. The other thing that happens, and you speak to this quite a bit, it does happen with our parenting. And we'll look at the screen, you know, at screen culture, or we'll look at the kind of information that our kids are getting from whether it's the, you know, the school they go to or whatever. And it's. And we'll say things about how hard what life is and how awful things are. And we have this. We tend to gravitate towards the sort of it is what it is posture as it relates to, like, our kids in the world. Like, well, kids in their screens. And I'm like, no, it's not. And sometimes what we mean specifically with screens, when it is what it is, when we say it is what it is, is we don't want to have the fight. I don't want to lose that battle. I don't want to be like, in, like, it's this rage tension with my kid because I took their phone away. So instead of saying, like, hey, I lost a battle and I'm going to give my kid full access to their phone and everything that comes with it, which is a terrible decision, but it is the one you're making. Instead of saying, like, I lost this battle. What I'm saying, it is what it is. As if those are just circumstances that were, like, downloaded from on high. Like, kids will just have phones. No, no, no, homie, that's a choice you're making. And it's a choice you're making not only to grant them access to their phone, but to not now fight the battle with your kid about screen time. So that's another great example of that. It's like, there are oftentimes we'll say it is what it is. When there's a battle, I don't want to fight. Like, I'll call it powerlessness. And I'll say, like, there's nothing I can actually do. When what I mean is what I would have to do is going to be really hard. It will cost me a lot. That's what I actually mean. What I actually mean is, like, that's going to cost me and it's going to be incredibly difficult. And so instead of saying that, instead of saying I'm not up to it, I say it is what it is. As if it's just this monolithic gravitational reality, and it almost never is the case.
- [10:36]
Ginny Urch
And here's what I'm saying. It's like the way that you weave these together, you tell this story from high school, of all places. I'm like, my goodness, the things that we can sometimes be influenced by in these moments. I mean, like, I can hardly remember any of high school specifically. I mean, I remember. I remember one time I went because I had swim, and I forgot to pack underwear, and so. And I had overalls, so I had to wear my wet bathing suit under my overalls. I mean, I remember that. Yes, but you don't really remember too much, like, of the specifics. And you tell this story that is.
- [11:09]
Justin McRoberts
Really memorable, the one from the classroom.
- [11:11]
Ginny Urch
About a cactus, and then you weave it into God. I mean, it. It. It's just. It's uncanny. It's remarkable. But the story is. You're just. You're goofing around in class.
- [11:21]
Justin McRoberts
Yes, I got in trouble.
- [11:23]
Ginny Urch
And your teacher calls you up to the front. Instead of going to the principal's office, the teacher does something different.
- [11:28]
Justin McRoberts
Yes, I got in trouble in speech class for talking, which is quite a thing. That's a high bar to clear, even for the class clown. It's speech class. It's about talking. And I still got in trouble. And Mr. Ross, call my name out. And I know the tone, because if you. If you've been in trouble in class, you know the tone. And still I heard the tone, Mr. McRoberts. And I grabbed my bag and I started heading to the door. But instead of letting me leave, he said, actually, if you don't mind, once you come up here and set your bag down by my desk. And they led me up to this little. This slightly raised area where we do our speeches. And then he went to the prop closet. The prop closet. Normally, when he goes to the prop closet, he will pull out, like, sometimes a podium, sometimes like, a little, like, something to hold or a book, or like some kind of tool by which we normally use, by which we would learn to give speeches and what have you. And he pulled out this large, inflated cactus, this plastic inflated cactus, and he set the cactus down next to me. And then he walked back to my chair, sat in my desk, and said, Mr. McRoberts, seems like you really like to entertain. The floor is yours. You have five minutes. And it just left me standing there with this cactus. And I say this in the book, and I mean it. Like, it is one thing to steal someone else's moment. It's completely different thing to have to make something of your own. Which, by the way, let's take a. Like, a journey outside of that story for a second. Part of how we know that our imaginations actually work in these stuck spaces is because we don't allow other people to be stuck. When we watch other people make their mistakes and we watch. Watch other. Other people make bad decisions or get, like, Will. We will look at people from 100 miles away and we will judge and critique and we will analyze and we will. What do they call it when you, you know. You know. Couch.
- [13:17]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:18]
Justin McRoberts
Armchair coat. Will. Armchair coach. Right. We'll watch NFL teams and we'd be like, why are you running the ball? What are you doing? Like, how come you run the flat pattern? What?
- [13:27]
The flat.
- [13:27]
Like, Will. Will just. We're constantly diagnosing and reinventing other people's lives. We're watching our neighbor like, oh, my gosh, they should have never bought that car. You know what I do. And we do this all the time with other people. It's one thing to steal someone else's moment or to critique someone else's moment. It's completely different thing when all of a sudden you're the person in the spotlight and it's you and they're your choices. And so we say it is what it is in those moments because it's difficult to make right choices constantly. And we don't like having to go back. It's the hard work. So all that to say it was one thing for me to be, like, cracking wise and stealing his moment as a teacher, but now it's me up there with this cactus. And so I freeze. I do the thing that happens. I totally froze. I had nothing to say for a second and I was just stunned. And. And then the kid that I was actually goofing off with, his name is Dave Meaney. Dave Meaney was sitting behind me, and now he's sitting behind Mr. Ross. And Dave Meaney goes, oh, come on, man. Just pretend like you're in the desert. It's just a cactus. To which Mr. Ross responded immediately. He looked at David and he said, no, it's not. And he looked right at me. He said, it is what you make of it. And I didn't. I didn't catch it at, yes, there it is. I mean, all those years later, Wow. I didn't catch that at the time. Like, it's not like I wrote that down in my journal at the time. I was like, this has changed my life. But, like, for the next two or three minutes, whatever I had left, and it was a space alien, and it was a rocket ship, and it was a long lost friend, and it was like three or four other things. And I was like, interacting. And now I had, like, Robin Williams. In my mind, like, what would Rob Williams be doing with this cactus? Who wasn't. Is a hero of mine? What the phrase did for me at, like, a deep level then, like, functions, like, more cognitively now, which is, it wasn't a cactus. It wasn't a cat. It was a piece of plastic.
- [15:15]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [15:15]
Justin McRoberts
I looked at this thing, and I was like, it's a cactus, but it's actually not a cactus. It's a piece of plastic with, like, stank teacher's breath in it. That's what it is. But we allow really bad imagination and really bad stories to narrate to us what's actually real. Well, like, this will say, hey, this thing about parenting, this is just what's real. Kids, kids are just hard. Kids don't listen. Or like kids in their screens. And that's. That's a terrible story. But it gets heaped on us in the same way that, like, hey, this is a cactus. And reality is like, no, it's not a cactus. It's a bunch of stuff. So with kids and. And screens, like, this is just data. This is just information points. This is just circumstance, and this is a battle of wills. And all of those things are, like, opportunities in some way, shape or form for me to make a different choice, for me to, like, do something different with the data. So that's what, you know, the story comes back to me now because I attach, like, my. My adult patterns where I run up against stuff, whether it's the mortgage or. And all these seemingly monolithic things, and I feel stuck. And then I have to echo this moment back in my childhood in which someone said, like, that's not just a cactus, man. It's literally whatever you make of it, of this thing. And I. And I think that ends up being true of the vast majority, the vast majority of our adult experience of life.
- [16:37]
Ginny Urch
Well, it's interesting because it's what little kids do naturally.
- [16:39]
Justin McRoberts
It is.
- [16:40]
Ginny Urch
They take a stick, they take a rock. It is what they make of it. And you wrote, this is a big shift in perspective. I felt it already. I read it, and I feel it already with the books. I was like, wait a minute. I have given into, like, oh, this is just how it went. This book's got, like, great reviews. And I'm like, but it didn't do as well as, you know, I maybe thought it should. And I was just kind of like, oh, well. But then you say, what do I do with what I have on hand?
- [17:06]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [17:07]
Ginny Urch
So it's an immediate shift.
- [17:09]
Justin McRoberts
I don't like the dentist flat out. Routine cleanings are one thing, but anything beyond gets me a little worked up and on edge. And so I've always been pretty dialed in when it comes to oral health and taking it seriously. But I've also always only ever used a traditional manual toothbrush and never knew what I was missing out on until I tried quip the new Quip360 oscillating toothbrush literally revolves around you. It's an electric toothbrush that doesn't overcomplicate the most basic daily ritual. The quip 360 is a fun, simple design that comes in multiple colors and is ultra quiet for a super clean without being super annoying. It's also scientifically proven to remove up to 11 times more plaque between teeth compared to a manual toothbrush and provide up to two times more whitening on day one. What's so great is if you don't absolutely love your quip360, return it for free within 30 days. But if you do love it, which I sure do, brush easy knowing you get a free lifetime warranty for purchasing on getquipquip.com and the opportunity to subscribe to Refill Heads by mail every three months so you never even have to go to the store. Just for the listeners of the 1000 Hours Outside podcast, get 20% off site wide and a free travel case and countertop stand@getquipquip.com 1000 hours free your mouth today and save 20% sitewide plus a free travel case and countertop stand at getquipquip.com 1000hours getquipquip.com 1,000 hours parents, we've all been there. As much as we try to live in moderation, the post holiday sugar crash is real. And let's be honest, finding snacks that satisfy your kids and don't leave them bouncing off the walls isn't exactly easy these days. That's why I am so grateful for Thrive Market. They make it simple to find healthier kid approved swaps for all those sugary junk filled favorites. One of my favorite features is the Healthy Swap Scanner in the Thrive Market app. It's a total game changer. I just scan a product my kids love like their favorite chips or crackers and the app shows me cleaner, healthier alternatives. We have made some great swaps. We absolutely love Chomps beef sticks in place of sugar packed snacks. We keep a bag of them in the car pretty much at all times. And what kid doesn't love Mac and cheese? They have all the Annie's you'd ever want plus all their other snacks which my kids are huge fans of. I also love that Thrive Market takes the guesswork out of finding safe healthy food. All of their products are 100% non GMO and free from over 1000 harmful ingredients. The filtering option on the app is so we can look for low sugar options as well as seed oil free alternatives which is something my family is really trying to avoid. When we can Ready for a junk free start to 2025? Head to thrivemarket.com 1000hours and get 30% off your first order plus a free 60 gift. That's T H R-I-V E market.com 1000hours thrivemarket.com 1000hours this new year, it's time to prioritize what truly matters your health and the health of your home. Branch Basics understands that a safe and clean environment is the foundation of a thriving life. That's why their Premium Starter Kit is the perfect way to kick off your healthiest year yet. And boy have we loved it. Did you know that many conventional cleaning products are loaded with harmful chemicals? These hidden toxins can irritate skin, disrupt hormones and even pollute the air inside your home. It's time to break free from the cycle of using products that compromise your well being. Branch Basics makes it simple to take control of your home's health. Their Premium Starter Kit is so cool. It features one powerhouse concentrate that works for everything from washing laundry and scrubbing counters to tackling bathroom grime. You can even use it to gently clean produce. It is seriously so convenient and I love how I don't have to have 17 types of cleaning products to keep my home healthy. Plus, the jars are super cute. Starting fresh in January means clearing out toxins and embracing products that support your wellness journey. Make 2025 the year you say goodbye to toxic products and hello to a clean, safe home. Start your health routine today with Branch Basics. Branch Basics can help you kick off the new year with a healthier home and a fresh routine. Right now, our listeners get 15% off their entire order by using code outside@branchbasics.com that's 15% off your order@branchbasics.com with promo code outside. Make 2025 your cleanest, healthiest year yet with Branch Basics.
- [21:38]
Ginny Urch
And then you tie it in. You say when I give in to it is what it is. Thinking I dishonor the creative, redemptive and loving God who made me and holds me together. Why?
- [21:50]
Justin McRoberts
Because in the beginning, God takes nothingness and creates reality God makes things out of absolutely nothing. And then at the point at which you and I are created as humans, we come from dirt. And, like, it comes from dirt. And when. When the ancients wrote these stories, it wasn't like a science class. It wasn't like. Like, here's how things happened so that you understand the chemistry relationship between Earth and, like, physical. Like, that wasn't what they were saying. What they were saying is, one, you come from dirt, and you're gonna go. You kind of go back. Like, your life is limited. They're always talking about death, the ancients. But also what they're saying is, like, look at how he made you. He took that. He took dirt, like this low element that you walk on and barely think about and you don't even want in your house, and he made you from that. So when you look around your circumstances and you're like, this is bunch of blah, blah, blah. Well, that's not how God looked at anything. God looked at, like, the lowest elements in the world and then created the most magnificent part of that world. I dishonor God's character by looking at my circumstances and doing the thing you and I have both done when we look at book sales, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is awful. Well, the reality is, like, it's not. It's not awful. It's actually pretty good. You know, the reality is, like, we got to put books in the world. Yeah, that's so freaking cool that we got to put books in the world. We dishonor the gift it is to exist at all by doing the mathematics of our circumstances and calling things and saying it's not, you know, it's not good. It was just theologically problematic. We're like, God is calling it good. I'm calling it not good. I think you might have a conversation there. We dishonor also the actual redemptive story over the course of history, which is this. There isn't, like, a through line from point A to point B that goes on this, like, low but increasing or kind of like tilted up trajectory. What happens is, like, there are dips and rises. That's how history works, and that's how redemption works. There is always a death, and then there's a resurrection and glory, and we dishonor that story by. By when there's a death, saying, well, there's the end of it. No, that's not how he got us here. What happened was that there was a death, and then in the death, he trusted that the father would resurrect him. And then they did. When there's a death and when the wall. When we hit the wall, that's where resurrection shows up. Like, that's where newness happens. Like, if we want the resurrection story in our lives, then we have to. When. When we hit the wall, we have to, when circumstances are not great, cease from this ridiculous story in which. Which we're being told by the world around us that that's how this goes. It is what it is. By the way, is. Is never a thing that we say about positive stuff. It's always a thing we say about negative stuff when it's going incredibly well. No one looks around and says, well, here's what it is, true. No one says that we function in thankfulness and we in celebration. Well, what if we apply that same thankfulness and celebration when things hit the floor? Okay, what do I still have on hand? One of the stories that gets you in the. In the book, clearly not my story is when the disciples come to Jesus and there are thousands and thousands of people standing around hungry. They're like, hey, these people have been following us around. I'm assuming, by the way, that they're telling Jesus about the hunger of the people around them because they're hearing about it, right? Hungry people tend to talk about it. So they're saying to Jesus, hey, these folks, they're hungry. We should send them home. And Jesus says, you feed them. Which is so good. I love him. He's so great. You feed them. He knows. He knows what they have on hand. He knows what they've got. And he's like, you feed them. And they're looking around thinking they quit their jobs to follow this guy around the desert. Like, what? What the heck? What am I supposed to do with this? So they. They gather up what they can, which is like a little bit of bread and a little bit of fish from a child. Which it's. Again, what a wonderful detail in this story by Luke. It's not like a bunch of the adults. Because that's. You said it a second ago. The adults are like, well, we're stuck. All the adults are like, darn it, we're stuck in the middle of the desert.
- [25:50]
Ginny Urch
I don't have enough.
- [25:51]
Justin McRoberts
We don't have enough. All the adults. And some kid goes, I don't know. This is what I got. What can you do with it? It's a child. Because that's how they think. The kids are like, I got some gum, right? I got a pack of gum and a Snickers. What can you do with that? That's what a kid does. Maybe we can share the candy bar. So the child offers, like, the two loaves of bread and the fish or the five loaves of bread. Can't really can't remember the details. And the first thing Jesus does before he does the multiplication is he gives thanks. And again, the details, the way these stories are told, are so important. I wonder if sometimes we don't see the miraculous happen in our dark spots, our dead spots, or our dead ends, because we don't function in thankfulness. The thankfulness for what we do have on hand actually ends up being the gateway to the miraculous multiplication of, like, whatever it is. But instead we say, it is what it is. Life is hard, things are bad. Jesus takes this very clearly, not enough mathematically, bread and fish, and then says, thanks for it. And on the other side of his thanks, not only is everyone fed, but then there's more left over after they've fed everyone. It's too easy to get caught up in how great the miracle is. It's really important that we notice how it got done and how it got done. If some child said, I know this isn't going to feed everyone, but this is what I've got, and then Jesus said, thanks for it. It is what it is. Kills all of that. It is what it is. Murders that entire scenario. And then they just send those people home. And there's never a story about that. And we don't get to hear about this kid's courage and bravery or the thankfulness of Jesus.
- [27:29]
Ginny Urch
Well, and so here you weave the cactus. It is remarkable storytelling, Justin. The sentence here is, Jesus first took notice of what he had on hand and decided it was plenty to work with.
- [27:42]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [27:42]
Ginny Urch
When that is really powerful. One kid's lunch to feed the 5,000. And it wasn't at 5,000 men, but there was even more. Yes, there was like, women and children, too.
- [27:51]
Justin McRoberts
Probably like seven or ten thousand people.
- [27:52]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. One kid's lunch. And it was plenty to work with. So what if we take that into our own lives? Yeah, you say, I'm guessing that in one way or another, at least once in your life you've been handed an inflatable cactus of sorts and had no idea what the right or best or next move was. But you have plenty to work with. So, I mean, I think what I've noticed about your stories from the books I've read of yours is that sometimes you read a story in a book and it really moves you and you remember it and it Helps you to change and to learn and to grow. Your stories are ones that I share with other people, but which I think actually is pretty rare for someone to tell a story well enough that, first of all, you remember it. Second of all, it, like, moves and touches you, and then you understand it enough. It's told in such a way that it's, like, entertaining and interesting enough that you tell someone else.
- [28:41]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah.
- [28:42]
Ginny Urch
And that's what I do with all your stories. I'm like, immediately. Or people bring up, like, I'm struggling with this friendship. And I was like, oh, I just read a story about that in Justin's book. You know, this is what he said. And you're able to sort of retell that story. One of the stories, they're so good, and I know we're not gonna have time to talk about all of them, and I'm having a hard time even picking which ones, but I think I really liked this one. The Jason. The Jason story. Okay, so you're a musician. Even the story about how you became a musician is a really good one. It's worth reading. People will love this book. It is what you make of it. Also, you were with Five Iron Frenzy. So I was a fan.
- [29:18]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [29:19]
Ginny Urch
I mean, I was a Scott fan in the 90s.
- [29:20]
Justin McRoberts
Still a fan. Still a fan, yes.
- [29:22]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. So cool. So you're a musician and you're going to go to Canada and there's going to be 10,000 listeners. And you get there, and it's not what. It's not what you're expecting.
- [29:33]
Justin McRoberts
No, it's not.
- [29:34]
Ginny Urch
You're standing in front of 0.2% of the number that they told you.
- [29:38]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [29:39]
Ginny Urch
And they call. They can't even get your name right. They call you Jason. And what happens is you end up. You reframe it, you use it in a different way. And then a decade later, over a decade later, one of the kids that was there becomes a pastor and sends you an email. Yeah, I would love for you to tell a little bit of the story. But also, I. It made me wonder, like, how often do we impact people in these ways that we'll never know?
- [30:05]
Justin McRoberts
I think. I think most of the impact we have in life, one. I think most of the impact. The actual difference. Impact or difference? You know, the word can matter sometimes, but, like, I think most of the difference we make in life, we don't get to see. And we have to. Like, if it really is about planting seeds, like, sometimes seeds take a really long time. And so be thankful you get to plant Seeds and then trust God to do, like, great stuff with the little bits you do. And, you know, even when we do, you know, achieve the things we set out to achieve, I'd be willing to bet that the hallmark. Yeah, I'd be willing to say out loud, I think the hallmark of really great works is like, we'll get to the end of the project and we will have done what we counted on doing. But like, the joy that we share with the people we're making the project with or like those little insights, like, I think those are the things that actually last. So this story, I. I was. I was on tour with at the time with a person named Jennifer Knapp, who was a singer, songwriter. She's still around doing some music, I think, but she was invited to play in the middle of this tour. She was invited to play at a conference up in Canada. And I had not been to Canada. This is early in my career. And. And the. The tour manager, Our tour manager said, like, hey, you know, the tour is going to split off some of these people going to go to Texas and wait, we're going to go to Canada. And if you wanted to, there's like a 15 minute spot. You could play a set right in like, you know, the, you know, 15, 20 minutes, which is what you're doing now, like McFanta, fantastic up in Canada, gonna go. I was like, yeah, 20 minutes in front of Jen. And I'm like, what's the thing? He's like, yeah, it's. It's a conference. 13,000 Canadian teenagers. I was like, fantastic. I'm gonna go international. I get there and I go to. And I go to talk to this age manager who does not have time for me. It's in the Edmonton Ice arena, which is where Wayne Gretzky plays or played. I'm like, I'm kind of mystified. Like, it's Gretzky's house and the whole thing. This is fantastic. And I go to the stage manager and he's like, I don't really have time for this right now. He's like, oh, you're. You're not on the stage. I said, oh, I'm not on the stage. He goes, this is the main stage. He goes, no, you're over there. And he points across the floor of the ice arena. And they're like, I don't know, 200 chairs. And then behind the chairs is a stage like roughly the size of my hand. It's this tiny little. It's this tiny little black box. And I was like, you know what? Cool, that's great. 13,000 kids. I'll play back there. I'm sure they got cameras. I go back there and there's a single camera off to the left, which is fine. And I check in with that stage manager who's not really a stage manager. And I'm like, hey, I'm Justin. I'll be playing here later on. So he gets me, he gets me line checked. And line checked is all. Line check means is like they can they. When I play and sing, they are getting my signal at the board. I don't hear anything. I'm. They're like, great, you're good. I was like, I didn't hear that. We don't, we don't have time for a sound check. I'm like, you know, that's cool. Sorry. 13,000 kids. It's gonna be fantastic. Thing starts, they're running the program. There's someone on the stage tearing, you know, tearing phone books for Jesus. Like all the stuff that happens at these places. And oh my gosh, that's like a.
- [33:12]
Ginny Urch
Memory I had completely forgotten about. But that was a thing for quite a while.
- [33:17]
Justin McRoberts
Somewhere in the world, some massive human tore phone book for Christ. And a kid in the front went, that's it. That does it for me. I'm in. Whatever works. So they get to the part where it's almost time for Jen to go on and. Which is like the 20 minute spot for me. So this guy gets up on stage, I climb up on the little box and the guy, the MC of the day is like, this is the moment you've been waiting for. Because Jen was like popping at the time. She was. She had like the number one record in Christian rock and roll. He says, In 20 minutes, right here on the stage, Jennifer Knapp will take the stage. You're gonna rock your faces off. And people like, wow. So right now would be a great time to go get some popcorn, hot dog, go get a snack. All the lights come on. The whole like Edmund, like the Edmonton actually made it. Like it goes from like this kind of cool ivy place to like warehouse lighting. Kids are getting up and it's like all the noises, like the, you know, the, the chairs or the springs, the chaos. Kids move around and there's like this tiny group of like a few Canadian kids who are so nice and they feel stuck and trapped by the fact that they can tell him. But. So the guy says, while you're getting your snacks, we got a special treat with Jason. And then walks off like he didn't even didn't even try to finish. Caught me by the right. Called me by the wrong first name, said and left. It was. It. It was done. And I was like, I guess I'm Jason. And I played the set, and it was. And it was. I played for the 17 minutes, and when I. When I would play guitar, because the. The mainstay speakers are like, 200ft behind me, I would play a guitar, and then the sound would come through like, a. Like a quarter second later. So it was, like. It was absolutely horrible. I couldn't hear anything. I was off pitch. But I finished the set. I did my best and said thank you to, like, the few kids sitting in front of me. And then later, I got a message from one of the kids who was there that he had become a pastor sometime in. In between then and then. And he. That when things went super sideways in his congregation, he remembered watching this guy. He remembered watching this guy, like, get called the wrong name and, like, have a super hard time and, like, fight through anyways for this small group of people who are paying attention because his church, there have been a big church splits and, like, more people left than he thought was gonna, you know, were gonna leave. And so he was left with this tiny little congregation. And then he remembered me, like, doing this thing. He's like, well, if that guy. If that guy can push through and pull the show off, then maybe it's worth it for me to, you know, give the best I have to this small group of people here in Canada. And it. It brought the story. I hadn't thought about that story in a long time of that account, that moment, but it brought that back to life. And being like, oh, it was what I made of it, you know, it is what it is. Says, like, this is not worth it. It is. What it is is like, hey, I was here to play for 13, 000 on the main stage. I'm not playing on main stage. So this isn't what I wanted. And not only am I not playing a main stage, like, I'm gonna have. I'm gonna have, like, bad audio. So now I'm not on main stage, and I'm playing for bad audio. And I'm playing for, like. Like, nowhere near. I'm playing for, like, less than 20 kids. I don't want this because it's not what I plan for. That's what it is. What it is does. It says, this isn't what the plan was. It is what I make of it says, well, I'm going to put My best foot forward here and see what comes of, like, this effort I've got. And I'm glad I got to do that.
- [36:52]
Ginny Urch
I got chills in that part. You said, he said that it felt like you just played a song for us, like we were your friends.
- [36:58]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah.
- [36:58]
Ginny Urch
And then that years later, it inspired him to spend more time with people. One on one.
- [37:04]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah.
- [37:04]
Ginny Urch
Or at lunch at church, instead of it being kind of like a show. And I just thought, wow, that ripple effect. You didn't. You never know.
- [37:13]
Justin McRoberts
I think we do that for folks all the time. I mean, I had the fortune of, like, having a website with my name on it and, you know, like, he could come find me. Right. For a lot of us, I think those things happen. And, like, folks, you know, two, three weeks a year later be like, I wish I could go back and tell that galaxy who was in front of me at the grocery store how big a difference it made for me to watch this. I wish I could go back and find the guy in the parking lot who, you know, gave up the parking spot because he had no idea what I was going through that day. Or, like. And they can't. They can't come find you.
- [37:46]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [37:47]
Justin McRoberts
And so these, like, little gifts we give people, these little ways, like, we make these tiny sacrifices of our time or these, what we think are tiny efforts that make a massive impact on someone. I think it happens all the time. I literally just had the benefit of, like, being a semi public figure so people can come find my. Can hunt my name down online and message me. But, yeah, I think that's the vast majority of impact we have on people's lives is that these tiny little moments that we don't think a whole lot of.
- [38:15]
Ginny Urch
Right.
- [38:15]
Justin McRoberts
That actually set, like, reset patterns for people's whole lives.
- [38:19]
Ginny Urch
Wow.
- [38:22]
Justin McRoberts
Here's the thing. It's kind of gross out. And that's coming from someone who loves being outside. Even those of us that embrace the chilly weather need something to break up the long winter nights. So something I love to do, treat myself to a little something. But I don't want to spend a fortune on my winter blues, that's for sure. And that's where Quince comes in. With quints, you can treat yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price. Something everyone needs in their closet, in my opinion. Quince's iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which start at $50. I just got mine and I love it. Or if you want to really up the Lux factor, check out their Italian leather handbags, washable silk skirts, and European linen sheet sets. Whatever you're looking for. All Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They're able to do that by partnering directly with top factories and cutting out the cost of the middleman, passing the savings on to you. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. And of course, they use premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece. Like I said, I already got my Mongolian cashmere cardigan which is so comfy. And my down puffer jacket is now my Go to Outerwear for these cold Michigan days. Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quint.com outside for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside to get free shipping and 365 returns. Quince.com outside my dad works in B2B marketing.
- [39:50]
He came by my school for Career.
- [39:51]
Day and said he was a big roas man.
- [39:54]
Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to Be to Be.
- [40:18]
Unknown
When it comes to raising kids, there's so much to consider. Things like what do we feed them? When do we feed them? How do they sleep? What does it look like to raise kind kids? How does their nervous system work? How do I keep myself calm? What are my triggers? There's so much that comes into play and we are distilling all of that information for you at Voices of your Village podcast, where we bring experts in the field of early childhood and education and psychology and across the board so that you don't have to comb the Internet for information. You get to show up and hang out and have shame. Free judgment, free conversations and insights into what it looks like to raise kind, empathetic, emotionally intelligent humans. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I have a Master's degree in Early Childhood Education. I'm a mom of two and I am walking this journey right alongside you today doing this work. Come hang out with me at Voices of your Village and we can dive into real conversations with actionable tips.
- [41:18]
Ginny Urch
My friend Molly wrote a book called if I Don't Laugh, I'll Cry and her mom had been a Vietnam nurse and died young for exposure to these different chemicals. And she had written this memoir, it came out not that long ago. And she had gotten some inheritance money from an estranged grandmother in college and blew it and ended up, like, really deep in debt in her early 20s. And she tells a story in her book about how she called, like, the debt collectors, the bank, I. I don't know. And she said she was, like, at the end of a rope. Like, she was, like, considering taking her life. I mean, it was like, an awful thing. Nobody knew about it. She was so buried. And she said that the lady on the phone, she's like, I don't. I. I'll never be able to think her. Was like, it sounds like you're really having a hard time. And walked her through the entire process and, like, changed the whole thing for her. And she wrote in the book, I hope she reads this. Yeah, you know, I hope she reads it. It's like. Or does Mr. Ross know. Does Mr. Ross know that there is a book with a cactus on the front, no less?
- [42:17]
Justin McRoberts
That that that is true. I made sure he knew a plastic cactus.
- [42:21]
Ginny Urch
And the title, it is what you make of it. So it's just a beautiful reminder just in that we can really impact people when we look at things with the it is what we make of it mindset.
- [42:31]
Justin McRoberts
Amen.
- [42:32]
Ginny Urch
Instead of it is what it is.
- [42:34]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [42:34]
Ginny Urch
How about one more? Yeah, they're really good. The thing about Judas I thought was really interesting.
- [42:40]
Justin McRoberts
Oh, yeah.
- [42:42]
Ginny Urch
They identified him as more than just a betrayer. I've gone to church since I was born. I've never heard anyone talk about this. Yeah, you talk about why that matters.
- [42:53]
Justin McRoberts
So the Judas narrative, we got a sliver of Judas's story in the text. And I think he's more than just. I think Judas is. Judas's role for us can be more than just. He's the guy that betrayed Jesus so that we can get to the cross. I think there's a little bit there for us in terms of forgiveness and fault. So the storyline. There's the way I read the text, like, there's. There's kind of this parallel storyline between Judas and, like, multiple other. The disciples, but specifically Peter that, like, they're both. Both Judas and Peter are, like, constantly dropping the ball, like, during the tail end of Jesus's life and ministry. Judas, the part we know, like, he, like, he's in conversation with. With folks who want to. Who want to murder Jesus and eventually, like, gives them. Gives Jesus up for some cash and that's awful. Peter, in the meantime, has this whole other series of failures. I mean, Peter, as bad as Judas is, you know, Jesus and Peter had this conversation more than one time in which Jesus says, no, I'm going to be betrayed and handed over. And Peter would say, like, no, you're not. Like, to Jesus's face, Like, the audacity to be like, no, you're not. We're not going to let it happen. And at one point, Jesus, like, calls him Satan, calls Peter Satan. He says, get behind me, Satan. Like, get. Get outta my face. Calls him Satan. It's not a small thing. So you would think that having been called Satan and like, called out in front of the rest of the disciples, that that would stick in Peter's mind about this thing that Jesus keeps saying about my life. They're gonna come get me. But in the moment in the garden when the chief priests and the elders and, and you know, the folks show up to come get Jesus, Peter pulls a sword out, which is, by the way, like, the first time you find out he has a sword. And I'm like, why do you have a sword? Like, at what point? We were like, if these lepers get out of hand, man, I tell you, like, what, like, what's the, what's the sword for?
- [45:02]
Ginny Urch
I've never thought about Peter's sword. I don't think there's any artwork anywhere. Like, you know, what did the sword look like?
- [45:07]
Justin McRoberts
No, but he has a. He's got a sword, like, which you wonder, like, did he go get himself a sword because he knew things were going to get heavy? Like, was this his plan all along? Like, that's a betrayal in and of itself that Jesus is saying, this is going to happen. They're going to come get me and then I'm going to rise. And Peter's like, I'm not going to let it happen. I've got a sword. So he doesn't just have the sword, he tries to use the sword and he tries to kill a guy, which we know he tried to kill him because what, he cuts off this guy's ear? By the way, I love that John writes this story. Uh, John and John and Peter very clearly have a very interesting relationship. John will let you know about all the things John gives you, all the details about Peter that you're like, oh, say more. Uh, because what we know is that Peter swipes at one of the. One of these servants and he cuts his ear off. If he cuts his ear off, he's swinging at his head. He's trying to kill a guy. By the way, side note, John in the story was telling. He's like, he says the servant's name was Malchus. He lets us know, which, like, I've got John in my head. Like, like post this scene like, like with a note, but like, what's your name? Malchus. Great. Everyone's gonna know about this. You know, I can't wait to tell the world about Peter. I'm sorry about Peter. He does this all the time. Like, John gets the guy's name. I love this. So Peter tries to kill this guy while Jesus is being betrayed. Then they all take off, all of them, which is a betrayal. Like, all of them betray Jesus. They leave. Judas has already betrayed Jesus. Now they've all betrayed Jesus. And then Peter comes back and he's kind of like hovering around. And then he has. And we tell the story of him. He has these three opportunities to say, no, that's my guy. And all three times he says, I don't even know him. Which is a full blown betrayal. So you just spent three years with this person who's trying to develop like a completely different cultural way of approaching the world, and now you won't even identify with him. That's a betrayal. The difference between Peter's betrayal and Judas's betrayal is only I would suggest that Peter sticks around long enough to figure out that the worst of him isn't definitive of him. Part of why I draw this out, part of why I see this in the scriptures is because when, when the disciples tell the story of, of. Of Judas, this phrase keeps popping up and it happens four or five times. They'll say, Judas, Judas Iscariot, who was one of the 12. Like, they identify him as one of the 12.
- [47:39]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [47:39]
Justin McRoberts
His story gets highlighted because of his betrayal. But when they recount that story, they note that he actually was still one of them. So they don't fully define him by the wrong he did. They primarily define him as One of the 12. They call him one of the 12.
- [47:58]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [47:58]
Justin McRoberts
And he betrayed Jesus. That's our story. Like, that's us is I am primarily beloved and I am a betrayer. And when we do this thing with Judas where, like, he is, he is only the betrayer, well, it opens the door for us to do that with ourselves and with other people.
- [48:17]
Ginny Urch
Wow.
- [48:17]
Justin McRoberts
Where like I will, I will fundamentally and primarily identify you by the wrong that you did. Sometimes that's really, really hard. Depending. And I mean, let's hit pause. And like it is, sometimes people will do things that are heinous enough that it is really, really awful. And it's honestly difficult to identify them any other way. And that might be the nature of your relationship to that person functionally. But part of the scandal of the gospel is that that's not fundamentally who they are. They might have done the worst thing imaginable to you or to other people, but that is. But part of why that's awful is because fundamentally there's someone better than that. Fundamentally there's someone other than that. And what we get with the story of Judas is an opportunity to, like, through the disciples, to recognize that the fundamental truth of who Judas was isn't that he was the betrayer, it's that he was beloved, that he was one of them and he betrayed them. It is what it is thinking draws this line, like, somewhere in the midst of our actions and says, this is now who you are. You've done something so terrible. This is now the fullness of your identity or this thing that keeps haunting you, you can't get past. That's who you are. It is what you make of it. Put like, puts us in this, like, grander context where, like, God is constantly making things in and through and around you that you couldn't begin to imagine. And you and I don't get to decide by nature of our actions and the analysis of our actions who we are. He gets to decide who we are, and he's making something more beautiful than we can possibly imagine. Even with, like, these terrible, dark corners of our lives. Jesus takes his very own betrayal by his friends and by Judas, and through the cross grants access to eternal life. So who am I to say about myself or someone else? This dark element of who you are is fundamentally true of you, and it is what it is. No, let's see what God does with even the worst of who we are.
- [50:06]
Ginny Urch
Wow. I have never heard anyone talk about that. I mean, everyone always just says, judas, the betrayer. And yet they didn't call him that. They called him one of them, one of the 12. I thought that was really powerful. And it goes in line with your story. And this is one we're not gonna have time to talk about. But it is. It's a story that will stick with you, with your friendship that fell apart and the one who. Who stole from you and you wanted vengeance.
- [50:29]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [50:29]
Ginny Urch
And it just ended up becoming such a. A powerful, powerful story where you together were able to do amazing things for other people. I mean, the book is just filled with so many wonderful stories. And then you talk about well, then when they were going to replace Judas, I thought, even this is such a small thing. They picked Matthias by flipping a coin, basically casting lots or however they did it. And I'm like, gosh, we take everything so seriously.
- [50:54]
Justin McRoberts
Yep.
- [50:54]
Ginny Urch
And they're like, well, Matthias became the new impossible by flipping a coin. And you're kind of tying that along with. Perfect is the enemy of the good.
- [51:02]
Justin McRoberts
Yes.
- [51:02]
Ginny Urch
And I just thought that was so deep. I mean, I'm. I remember this stuff, Justin. The storytelling is incredible. I had no idea that you could make grilled cheese directly on a glass top stove.
- [51:13]
Justin McRoberts
Well, you can't really. You ruin the glass top stove, it gets ruined. Oh, yeah, terrible. I broke that. I broke that guy. I was living with a guy who eventually was the. He ran the record label I was on, and me and like four single guys, and we were like the quintessential moron. Single guys, like, just had never had furniture before, didn't know what to. And like, the stove heated up, so we just start. We made the grilled cheese right there on top of the glass top stove and totally ruined the glass tops.
- [51:43]
Ginny Urch
Oh, my gosh, it ruined. And you got rid of his armoire. I mean, there's phenomenal stories in here. One of the things you said about living at Frank Tate's house, and I. And I wondered this, Justin, you're young. You ruin the stovetop. You're selling his furniture on accident.
- [51:58]
Justin McRoberts
Yep.
- [51:58]
Ginny Urch
And he said, I think your songs are pretty bad.
- [52:01]
Justin McRoberts
Yes, he did.
- [52:02]
Ginny Urch
He said, but I like you and I think you'll get better at the music part.
- [52:06]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah.
- [52:07]
Ginny Urch
Now, I don't know if you're gonna be able to answer this question. It might be like, too out there. No, but I think when you're like, young and you're in your early 20s or however, your late teens, and you're living in this person's house and it's kind of random. And how do you learn to be that likable? I'm asking because I've got like a 16 year old and I'm like, well, wouldn't it be amazing if in five years someone's like, hey, you know what? You're not really talented, but I do really like you. Maybe this will go somewhere.
- [52:32]
Justin McRoberts
You know, it's. It's a gift someone else offers you. Likability is, it's like a. It's. It's a gift other people offer you. It's a thing that's trained into us by the folks around us. And that's obviously the gift of Frank's. Frank's relationship with me on so many levels is the way he saw me changed the way I understood myself. So we learned to be likable because people like us. Frank came to me and. And said, I like you enough to invest in your life. We probably have time, maybe time for this one story. So, you know, he came to me, said, I. He said I was playing songs to try to, like, clear up my head. Because I was like, now I'm a Christian and I'm trying to figure the world out through the lens of Jesus. All. It's wild. So I'm playing songs and he says, I don't really like the songs, but I like you. If you thought about playing music for a living. It's a weird pitch. So fast forward, like, six months, seven months.
- [53:26]
Ginny Urch
Say it again. It's such a weird pitch.
- [53:28]
Justin McRoberts
That's such a weird pitch. He's like, I don't. I don't like your music, but I like you as a person. Do you want to start a record career? Like. Like, that's right.
- [53:34]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. You're not really a good cook, but I like you. So you want to be a chef.
- [53:37]
Justin McRoberts
I mean, that's pretty much it, right?
- [53:39]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [53:40]
Justin McRoberts
So fast forward six or seven months, I'm in the studio making a record, and he flies me to Nashville, Tennessee, to this showcase. All the artists get up and they play a couple songs, and the bands get up and, like, the room knows most of these folks. Like, like, bands I didn't know at the time because I grew up on Huey Lewis and Run dmc. And so there's, you know, bands like Audio Adrenaline is one of the bands. And, like, I don't know who this band is, but, like, everyone in the room's like, oh, my gosh. So deep into the morning, they get up. You know, executives will get up and say, this is, you know, this is Sarah Kelly, who was. Who's performing that morning at the time. This is Sarah Kelly. The new record's amazing. Like, she's gonna change the face of rock and roll. It's like. It's like Paul McCartney and Tina Turner had a baby. And, like, that's what they say. And then they hand out a bunch of free stuff, and then she sings songs and people go nuts. And Frank gets up. He goes, I'm Frank. I don't have any free things to give you because I don't feel like I should have to bribe you. That's the first thing he says. And then he says, this is Justin McRoberts and he's the artist we're focusing on this year. And I'll be honest, he's not very good right now. It's first thing I'm standing there holding a guitar, waiting for him to finish sentence. He goes, but I'll tell you this, I think most of the artists you've seen this morning won't be around two years from now because this is, this game is hard, it's going to get harder. I think Justin's going to be around 15 or 20 years from now and the stuff he's making then will be really good. So I'm making a long term investment. And then he says, if you want to make it with me, great. If you don't, I really don't care. And he walked off. And then I was like, you had to play, I gotta play this song. It's not very good. But what it did for me, and that's what I'm trying to do with these stories is it reframed. It reframed my experience and analysis of life. This is why I put these stories in the world is I want to try to help reframe our experience and analysis of life and remove the lens of it is what it is to it is what you make of it. Did I perform well that morning? 100% not like it was not a good song and my performance was not that great. And when the first record came out, it went okay. It did better than we thought it would. But like we. I wasn't hung up on the first record because like I was thinking now about who I was going to be 20 years down the line. So then the second record comes out and it didn't do well really at all. But I wasn't hung up on that because I was thinking about who I was going to be 20 years down the line and someone else's lens for me like reoriented the way I understood the data in front of me that there's, there's always like another step. What do I do now with what I've got? Frank took my like little bit of like musical talent and my likability as a person according to him, and he built in me a music career. Like he took this stuff that like other feel like, ah, it is what it is. That's as talented as he's going to be, that's as good as he's going to be as a performer. But Frank was like, no, there's more to be made of this. And has reframed quite literally everything that's happened in My career since then is okay. When the book drops and it does not pop. Okay, what do we do with that? What do we learn? What happens next? Constantly.
- [56:44]
Ginny Urch
Wow, that.
- [56:45]
Justin McRoberts
And that's, you know, Frank's role in my life has constantly been. That has continually been that way. I'm really thankful for him. He doesn't tell stories, he just kind of makes them and then I tell them.
- [56:53]
Ginny Urch
I mean, yeah, this is. Like I said, I'll remember this forever. He reoriented my perspective on what it meant for me to grow as an artist and as a human being. And it made me think, well, I'm proud of my book and I think it matters and I think it's going to change lives and I think it's going to have a generational impact. I think yours, same thing. And it's like, well, in 15 years, maybe there'll be a lot of ripples there and probably I won't even know what they are. You talk about how we just have such a expectation for fast pace and getting there fast. And he was thinking 15 years down the line. I mean, in 15 years I'll be in my 50s. I mean, it's interesting. It's just. It's a really interesting way to look at things. And it came full circle. I think one of my favorite parts about the this story is when it came full circle and he came back to you and said, you're a really good storyteller. Can you help me write my book?
- [57:44]
Justin McRoberts
Yeah. So cool, dude. It's a really good book too. It's called Time Machines Work. And his name was Frank Tate. Yeah, he was in the middle of the process of writing some stuff and he messaged me and asked if I could help him do his thing. That was crazy cool.
- [58:01]
Ginny Urch
He said, you're one of the best storytellers I've ever heard. Thank you for helping me with my book. I hope you have friends like Frank, not just people whose furniture you can sell without permission. That's funny. Oh, gosh. Because it hits you out of nowhere. You're not expecting it. It's like in the, you know, it's like this deep moment that you got, you just throw it in there. But people who believe in who you are becoming long term, who believe in it enough to invest and stay and celebrate along the way. I also hope you can be a friend like that to someone else. It is what you make of it. Justin, what a book.
- [58:35]
Justin McRoberts
Thank you.
- [58:36]
Ginny Urch
What a book. Thank you for writing it.
- [58:37]
Justin McRoberts
My pleasure.
- [58:38]
Ginny Urch
And thank you for coming on to talk to us. About it.
- [58:40]
Justin McRoberts
Absolutely. Anytime.
- [58:41]
Ginny Urch
It was amazing. And I'll make sure I put where everybody can find you. But you have your own fantastic podcast books coaching. I would imagine you're a fantastic coach speaking and you have a discover your creative process course. Really, really appreciate it.
- [58:55]
Justin McRoberts
You got it. Thank.