← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 404: The Opposite of Play Isn't Work, It's Depression | Charlie Hoehn, Play it Away
00:59:18
Loading summary
Transcript56 lines
- [00:01]
Ginny Urich
Happy New Year, friends. Whether this is your first time listening or you're a longtime part of the 1000 hours outside community, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. As we step into 2025, I want to take a moment to personally invite you to participate in the 1000 hours outside journey. It's a journey to reconnect with nature, with ourselves, and with our families. All around the globe, people are joining in for their first year, for their second year, for their sixth year, and for us, it's year 13. This isn't just a podcast, it's a movement. Together, we've built one of the top parenting podcasts in the United States and around the world. And that's because of you. Families from all corners of the globe are saying yes to a fuller, freer, more intentional life. They are balancing out virtual experiences with real ones and experiencing the profound impacts from a simple intention to get outside more. If you're new here, welcome to the family. You can download our free Trackers, join the 1000 hours outside journey or check out our top ranked app that's changing lives every single day. Find more information about all that's going on at 1000hours outside.com allthethings this year I also want to encourage you to check out my book until the Streetlights Come On. How a Return to Play Brightens Our Present and Prepares Kids for an Uncertain Future. It has over 2,600 reviews on Goodreads and a 4.3 star rating. It's inspiring families everywhere to slow down, embrace intentional living, reconnect with what truly matters, and prepare your kids for what's ahead. The 1000 hours outside movement is a movement to reclaim your time, prioritize connection, and leave a lasting impact for generations to come. You are not just a listener, you're part of a global community that's rediscovering the joy and wonder of simply being outside. So grab a warm drink, your laundry basket, some potatoes to peel for dinner, settle in, or head outside for a walk around the neighborhood. And let's make this the year we fill our lives with what we want to fill it with first, and leave the leftover time for screens. I'm so glad you're along for the adventure. Now let's dive in to today's episode.
- [02:05]
Capella University
Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life. At Capella University, our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella.
- [02:34]
Ginny Urich
Edu welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have a super exciting guest today. He has written actually several wonderful books, but the one that I have read most recently is called Play It A Workaholic's Cure for Anxiety. Charlie Hohn, welcome.
- [02:53]
Charlie Hohn
Thank you so much for having me, Jenny.
- [02:56]
Ginny Urich
Charlie, I've had this book for a while and have loved it. And it's just really an interesting, intriguing story that you have. And you're a wonderful writer. You know, you pick up a book like this and you're thinking, this is going to be, you know, some steps for me. And what, you know, what can I do? I'm kind of a workaholic. And the way that you weave in your story, like from the minute it starts, you're totally hooked. And this is wildly interesting because I read Play It Away. I also have four of Timothy Ferris's books that I have not read. I have them. So your marketing was wonderful. I have them. I haven't read his. I've read yours, but I was so surprised when I didn't know. I didn't know the connection. You work for Timothy Ferris and he wrote this book, I haven't read it called called the Four Hour Work Week. And what I assume that it's about is working less and sort of, I don't know, building in systems that make money and capitalizing on your time. And so when you read a story about someone who worked for the person who made Four Hour Workweek and helped write these books and market these books, you would think that you maybe had some of those principles going on in your life. And yet you are really, really bogged down with work. So can you tell us about. I mean, I think a lot of people would be like, that's really interesting. I would have thought you were working a four hour workweek too. How does it go about that an employee of someone who writes about the four hour workweek is having so much work to do.
- [04:23]
Charlie Hohn
Yeah. So the way I say it in the book is I have no one to blame but myself for the position I put myself in. So to back up, before I started working with Tim, you know, I graduated in 2008 during the recession, I wasn't able to get any employees to offer me a job. Basically, I applied to 100 jobs. No one really even responded to me. So out of desperation, I started offering to work for free for entrepreneurs that I admired. That's how I ended up getting into books. So I worked with Ramit Sethi, the author of I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. And we launched him his book. It hit number one on Amazon overall. So it like beat out the Twilight series, which was huge at the time. And so because of that experience, I sort of developed a reputation as somebody who could help with books. And Ramit had a positive experience and he introduced me to Tim. Tim I was super excited to work with. I think the Four Hour Workweek is one of the greatest business books ever written. Like, no doubt, it's hugely influential. And I just wanted to learn from the guy. And so as much as I love the principles in the book, I was really just eager to learn and absorb as much as humanly possible. So we worked together for a little bit remotely. And then he offered me a full time position and to move out to San Francisco. And so to me it was like, this is the opportunity of a lifetime to have him as my mentor. He's. He hasn't ever done this for anybody. All of a sudden I found myself, you know, as a 23 year old, meeting the founder of Uber and being like, hey, this is an idea that I'm working on. Showing me the prototype of Uber at dinners with the founder of one of the founders of YouTube and the founder of Evernote. And Tim was gracious enough because I said, I was like, throw what you can at me until, you know, I can't handle it anymore because I want to get good at the things that entrepreneurs are good at. And so I was doing everything from, you know, starting off basic stuff like running to UPS and grabbing the mail, to organizing big events that he did, you know, he threw VIP parties on, on a ship. He threw. He did a huge event in Napa Valley that 100 plus people from all over the world came to for $10,000 each. But it gradually ratcheted up. But it was the event planning that was the thing that kind of broke me because. Which he didn't know, but it was like, for one, embarrassingly, I didn't realize, oh, we could have just hired the hotel to run the event, but. Or maybe I did know and I was, I just didn't have faith that they would do it at the level that, that we wanted to do it. But I'm not an event planner and that's like so intense to do at that level. And I think at that time, you know, the internal shift I had also, which was interesting was, you know, I offered to work for free for these guys because I wanted to do what was interesting and exciting and fun. I was like, if no one's going to hire me, if no one's going to pay me, then I'm at least going to do stuff that's meaningful and cool and interesting. I'm just going to assign myself work. Right? And that worked. And so to me it was like, I want my work to be play. I want to play at the highest levels I can. I want to play with the coolest people I can find and create interesting things with them. But along the way, as I was successful in those roles, it kind of became more about results, success outcomes, hitting goals, you know, and so it became less and less like, let's see what we can create. Which I don't. Again, I felt nobody but myself. You know, that's just kind of how it shifted. And yeah, like I threw myself into the deep end in that role. And yes, it was intense. Like Tim will admit that too. It was, we did a lot of intense stuff. But I didn't sign up necessarily for the four hour work week. I signed up to learn from the guy who had done it.
- [08:52]
Ginny Urich
And that makes so much sense. I had such an epiphany with this book. Play it away. And you also have a recession proof graduate. You, I mean, you have just, you've done so many cool things, which, you know, I mean, looking back, it's like, it is neat. I mean, you said all these people that you've met, three time New York Times bestselling author, founder of author Dot Ink, you're helping all these other authors, your expertise and this number may even be old, but it says has helped you sell over 10 million books, which I love because people should be reading books. Let's buy books.
- [09:22]
Charlie Hohn
Help my clients sell over 10 million copies.
- [09:25]
Ginny Urich
Yeah, sure, sure. But I mean, that's incredible. That's incredible. We're getting books out into the world. You're getting books out into the world. But I had this epiphany. Charlie. I talk a lot about how society used to be set up in a way that protected childhood. Probably uneven, knowing it wasn't even on purpose. Right. You know, the cartoons ended at noon and you may be too young to even remember that time of life, but you know, it's like the cartoon just end and you Know, there wasn't TV on Sunday and, you know, before cable and all these different things. And so there were these sort of boundaries. There's maybe less homework. The school day was shorter, that type of thing. A lot of families had one car. They couldn't do all these extracurriculars. So there's a different childhood for people, maybe a lot, because just that's how society was. I've never really thought about it in terms of adulthood. Like, you're talking about your work in the 2020s and you say, it's nobody's fault but myself. But I really had my eyes open and really started to think about it differently through what you wrote about and played away. I was tethered to the Internet seven days a week. I communicated to people primarily through screens. I drank coffee. I only stopped working when I was sleeping. And then I stopped sleeping. I just couldn't stop myself from working all the time. No one seemed to mind because practically everyone around me behaved the same way. My friends in medical school were popping Adderall like it was candy. That's an epiphany. It's like society is also no longer set up in a way that protects adulthood. There's a lot of factors there. Like when you say it's nobody's fault but my own, I also feel like this is a reminder that there's a lot of factors there that cause us to have to have, like, an insane amount of willpower to maybe live like how people used to. Can we just talk about that for a minute? Like, what do you think about that?
- [11:13]
Charlie Hohn
Yeah. So I'll modify my statement because, yes, nobody's fault but my own isn't 100% true. It is my responsibility to figure it out. However. Or it's my responsibility that I got myself into those situations. However, you're right. I think the environment is the first thing to look at. Right. So if a scientist is doing an experiment and. And the cells under the microscope are sick, they don't say, what's wrong with the cells. They say, what's wrong with this environment? And so the environment I was in at the time, where I went through, you know, intense anxiety burnout, and everything was in downtown San Francisco during the peak of founding these companies. And Instagram had just been sold for whatever, 3 billion or a billion dollars. WhatsApp was getting sold for 30 billion. Draw something. All these apps and stuff had popped up, and it was just a really intense time where I was. And it was high energy, high stakes. And that's when I think you know, social media had really started to take root. That was really the beginning of Instagram taking hold in our culture. And Facebook obviously already had sunk its teeth, but just more and more so with our work going online and everything online being so addictive in giving such rushes, coupled with an inability to escape into nature or to return to like a grounding state. Yeah. I mean, I quote in the book from the Steve Miller song. Yeah, people in the city are going insane. And it felt like everybody was just on a higher frequency there of anxiousness and nervousness.
- [13:06]
Ginny Urich
I'm so glad you wrote about it because it's such an important reminder that we're sort of swimming in this and that there didn't used to be an opportunity to be tethered to the Internet seven days a week and work stayed at work. And so it's, it's just important to know. It's. I was really glad to read it. I like, I'm like, why have I never thought about this in terms of adults? And I feel similar. I'm like, you know, you've got this job and you're supposed to, you know, you got to put out your social media and it's just this like constant content creation. It never ends, it's never enough. So you talk about like you're doing this, you're doing it at such a high level and you're doing a wonderful job, like a phenomenal job. Right. Like you're super young, you're meeting all these people is cool experiences, you're learning all of this stuff. But then you said your body gives out. So in order to keep up with it. I didn't even know there was this stuff, Charlie. I was like, this is kind of interesting, a brain drug for fighter pilots and narcoleptics. I was like, oh, I didn't know. But you say you take this thing and it allows you to just be awake for however many days. It doesn't even matter. And you're expecting that you're going to pass out randomly, but you stay alert, the pills worked. And you do this four day seminar. It goes phenomenal. And then you say, my body started to send out emergency signals. So I would love to know, and I think people listening would also love to know, like, what are the emergency signals?
- [14:24]
Charlie Hohn
Yeah, so this was when I said it's, it's me to blame. This was partially the reason during this event I was secretly taking these hyp, like the strongest stimulants you can take, basically military grade or narcolepsy grade to stay awake. And over the course of four days, I think I got. I can't remember, like, a total of six hours of sleep. It was something insane, like, very dangerous. When I got back, it felt like I was hearing in waves. It's hard to describe. Uh, very lightheaded, you know, heart racing. I remember having my first panic attack. And to anybody who. Who's had a panic attack, they know how scary they are. But if you haven't, it's simultaneously you're wondering if you're going crazy or if you're dying. And as a young person in their 20s, that's terrifying. Just to, like, hit you out of the blue. You don't know whether to call the hospital or just to, like, wait it out. And of course, if you check the Internet, WebMD is telling you, oh, yeah, yeah, you're. You're, like, definitely dying. And so, yeah, it's a phenomenon where, you know, your fight or flight is so activated that, you know, you got adrenaline coursing through, and it was a mess. The warning signs, I think, to answer your question, are I think if you can't breathe, like, I remember distinctly I couldn't breathe steadily and slowly. I remember when I held a cup, my hands would shake. It was embarrassing because I would. I would have to do, like, the Trump thing where I'd have to hold it with both hands so it didn't spill. I felt like all of a sudden, for the first time in my life, I felt scared. In social interactions, I felt like every interaction was going to lead to the person trying to yell at me or fight me. It felt like everybody was eyeing me suspiciously or judging me. So there was like this paranoia all of a sudden and this feeling of fragility physically, where I just felt like I could cry and yet I couldn't cry. It was. It was like this crazy paradox where I felt like I could break down into tears at any time, but I just, like, physically couldn't. It was bizarre. And it was a total feeling of exhaustion. And at the time, to be fair, there were a number of emotional events that happened that warranted grieving that I did. Like, I was just overwhelmed by, you know, over the course of a weekend, friend attempted to take their own life. A close friend, a family member died. And then this huge project that Tim and I were working on, the next book, the deadline got extended six months, which to me felt like an eternity. So it just felt like boom, boom, boom. Just one thing after the other. And I remember coming back just telling him, I have to take some time off. Yeah, after that weekend I was like, I just need a week to just like kind of rest, clear my head. And I came back from that and I, I told him, I, I'm sorry, I have to, I have to quit, I have to stop. And it was, that was a really hard conversation to have. I was, it was, it was scary and I didn't know what I was going to do next. So I, I felt like I burned a bridge that I'd worked really hard to create of my dream job. And so there was just a lot of, you know, life was dealing out some occasional punches and I wasn't handling them very well because of the physical state I was in. In the emotional state.
- [18:17]
Ginny Urich
It's like we talk about that it's a really hard time to be a kid because the screens are everywhere and the social media, it's a hard time.
- [18:24]
Charlie Hohn
Yeah.
- [18:25]
Ginny Urich
But I don't think we talk as much about how it's also a really hard time to be an adult. But because all the things that we talked about at the beginning, sort of swimming this soup of constant work and the things that you put out are never enough, you could always do more. It leaves us with very little margin. And so then when things like that happen, it's really easy to get pushed over the edge.
- [18:48]
Thrive Market
Parents, we've all been there. As much as we try to live in moderation, the post holiday sugar crash is real. And let's be honest, finding snacks that satisfy your kids and don't leave them bouncing off the walls isn't exactly easy these days. That's why I am so grateful for Thrive Market. They make it simple to find healthier kid approved swaps for all those sugary junk filled favorites. One of my favorite features is the Healthy Swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. It's a total game changer. I just scan a product my kids love like their favorite chips or crackers and the app shows me cleaner, healthier alternatives. We have made some great swaps. We absolutely love Chomps beef sticks in place of sugar packed snacks. We keep a bag of them in the car pretty much at all times. And what kid doesn't love Mac and cheese? They have all the Annie's you'd ever want plus all their other snacks which my kids are huge fans of. I also love that Thrive Market takes the guesswork out of finding safe, healthy food. All of their products are 100% non GMO and free from over 1000 harmful ingredients. The filtering option on the app is so we can look for low sugar options as well. As seed oil free alternatives, which is something my family is really trying to avoid. When we can Ready for a junk free start to 2025? Head to thrivemarket.com 1000hours and get 30% off your first order plus a free 60 gift. That's T H R-I-V market.com 1000hours thrivemarket.com 1000hours this new year, it's time to prioritize what truly matters your health and the health of your home. Branch Basics understands that a safe and clean environment is the foundation of a thriving life. That's why their Premium Starter Kit is the perfect way to kick off your healthiest year yet. And boy have we loved it. Did you know that many conventional cleaning products are loaded with harmful chemicals? These hidden toxins can irritate skin, disrupt hormones and even pollute the air inside your home. It's time to break free from the cycle of using products that compromise your well being. Branch Basics makes it simple to take control of your home's health. Their Premium Starter kit is so cool. It features one powerhouse concentrate that works for everything from washing laundry and scrubbing counters to tackling bathroom grime. You can even use it to gently clean produce. It is seriously so convenient and I love how I don't have to have 17 types of cleaning products to keep my home healthy. Plus, the jars are super cute. Starting fresh in January means clearing out toxins and embracing products that support your wellness journey. Make 2025 the year you say goodbye to toxic products and hello to a clean, safe home. Start your health routine today with Branch Basics. Branch Basics can help you kick off the new year with a healthier home and a fresh routine. Right now our listeners get 15% off their entire order by using code outside@branch basics.com that's 15% off your order@branch basics.com with promo code outside. Make 2025 your cleanest healthiest year yet with Branch Basics. I don't like the dentist flat out. Routine cleanings are one thing, but anything beyond gets me a little worked up and on edge. And so I've always been pretty dialed in when it comes to oral health and taking it seriously. But I've also always only ever used a traditional manual toothbrush and never knew what I was missing out on until I tried Quip. The new Quip360 oscillating toothbrush literally revolves around you. It's an electric toothbrush that doesn't over complicate the most basic daily ritual. The quip 360 is a fun, simple design that comes in multiple colors and is ultra quiet for a super clean without being super annoying. It's also scientifically proven to remove up to 11 times more plaque between teeth compared to a manual toothbrush and provide up to two times more whitening on day one. What's so great is if you don't absolutely love your quip360, return it for free within 30 days. But if you do love it, which I sure do, brush easy, knowing you get a free lifetime warranty for purchasing on getquipquip.com and the opportunity to subscribe to refill heads by mail every three months so you never even have to go to the store. Just for the listeners of the 1000 Hours Outside podcast, get 20% off site wide and a free travel case and countertop stand at getquipquip.com 1000hours. Free your mouth today and save 20 site wide plus a free travel case and countertop stand at getquip q-u I p.com 1000hours getquip q-u I P.com 1000hours.
- [23:15]
Ginny Urich
And you talked in this book played away about how you're like, I tried everything. You're like, you got a whole list and I know you. I think it came up maybe at the end that you like still like flotation tanks, the ones where you just kind of lay inside. I actually looked it up like you could buy one, you know, but you know, you're talking about like this whole list of things. You try this, you try fasting, extended fasting. You're trying all of these different things and you wrote that some of those things even made you feel worse. So you're actively pursuing what's off and how can I feel better. And the coolest thing about this book and why it fits so amazing with this audience is you write about how things changed, like almost in an instant. You're trying this, trying that. I mean, who extended fasting is like, who wants to do that? You know, but you're desperate and then you find this thing and it's fun. Can you just tell us about that breakthrough moment that you had?
- [24:08]
Charlie Hohn
Absolutely, yes. So as you said, I, you know, I was doing therapy, massages, journaling, psychedelics. Like it's at the time, which was like cutting edge, like no one knew about doing psychedelics to relieve. Yeah, flotation tanks, etc, I, I joined a six week group for men struggling with anxiety. I tried every supplement in Whole Foods. Nothing worked. And exercise, sleeping, all that stuff. And one day, I remember this had gone on for like A year and a half of experimentation, of trying things, and nothing was really sticking. And I. It wasn't that I was like. Had lost hope, but I was also like, is this my life sentence now? Am I just stuck in this state forever? And so it was really scary to think that might be the case. And then I came across a book called play by Dr. Stuart Brown on my friend's bookshelf. And I sat down, I read it in one sitting. And anybody who's read that book knows there's a number of profound insights there. The ones that stood out to me was a lack of play should be treated like malnutrition. It's a health risk to your body and mind. And that was the first time I thought of play as important as sleep or nutrition, as important as exercise, that play is an essential ingredient. We're one of the most playful species in existence. We can attribute our greatness as a species to the fact that we play. Then the other quote was, the opposite of play isn't work. It's depression, like the book talks about. If you deprive mammals of play, they become socially and emotionally crippled and they'll start lashing out or being fearful of their peers, like they've done experiments with mice and stuff. And so I was like, that's how I felt all of a sudden. That could potentially explain this sudden social fear and hesitation I've had after I read that book. I thought, this is like, the one thing I haven't tried is how can I inject play back into my life? When I was a kid, I played all of the time. I've always been playful. And in fact, I was playful leading up to all these things that went down. I would pull pranks as a kid. I played sports, I played catch every day. And I did this exercise in the book called the Play History Exercise, where you just. What were the things you did growing up when no one was paying you, no one was judging you, no one was grading you, you weren't being forced to do it. What were you drawn to? And for me, it was a handful of activities, but the easiest, simplest one was catch. Playing catch. And so the next day, somebody introduced me to somebody via email, and they were. They were like, you guys should meet up. He was like, hey, we should go grab a coffee. And I said, why don't we, you know, go play catch at the park instead?
- [27:18]
Ginny Urich
Were you nervous? Were you like, this guy's going to think I'm really odd? Or did you not care?
- [27:23]
Charlie Hohn
I didn't really care what he said, because I didn't know him. But he responded in jest. He was like, sorry, man, too weird for me. And then he wrote an email back after that. He was like, totally kidding. That sounds awesome. I love this suggestion. And so we met up and played catch at the park and it was great, you know, like just hung out instead of feeling this weird social dynamic of let's talk about how impressive we are to each other. We just enjoyed each other's company in the park and it was really relaxed and it was great. And I came back from that catch meeting feeling like a noticeable weight had dropped. And it was very clear there has definitely been a deficit here of play and playfulness. And so I just made it a daily effort. I would have catch meetings, basically I would go on walking meetings instead of, you know, I'd replace stimulants basically with play. And I signed up for basketball league and then I signed up for improv comedy classes, which. Improv is the practice of play for adults. It is the re education of what children know. If you go up to a three year or four year old and you pretend to hand them an object and you're like, here's a gift for you. I've been working so hard on this. They'll grab it even though it's nothing and they'll be like, thank you so much, I've always wanted this. And you know, they're just yes, anding and similar. If, if you have kids, you know, they'll often like, the real little kids will say and pretend that I was, you know, your favorite customer and blah, blah, and they'll just like keep creating an imaginary scenario to enhance reality or to suspend reality for a bit. And that's what improv is. It's just like, let's see what we can come up with and, and dispose of it. You know, unlike standup comedy, which I love, but standup comedy is very much like it. Let's like perfect this one joke and like retell it over and over. Improv was so refreshing because it was like, let's just come up with this thing and then throw it away. And then like, let's create another thing and then throw it away and throw it away. So I was doing that for three hours a week, sometimes more. And then I would play home run derby at the park with a buddy of mine and he and I would go and just hit and have fun. And all of a sudden, you know, within a very short period, I found myself being playful with everybody I was interacting with, you know, I was. I remember this one moment at Whole Foods. I was checking out, and the cashier went to grab my credit card, and right before they did, I just pulled it away, and they looked up at me and they just, like, smiled and laughed, and it was just like, stupid, silly thing, right? It was. It was quick, but it was like a moment I'll never forget because it was like. Everybody is open to the invitation of playing, if you remember. Like, hey, we're. We're all just on this ride together, you know? This doesn't have to be so serious all the time. Yeah, it was how I started showing up on dates. I attribute that period to, you know, before that period when I would go on dates. I remember distinctly thinking. I remember meeting this one woman. She was. She was great. But I was like, I totally blew that because I'm so. Like, I'm in such a funk, you know, I've weirded her out, and not her fault. I attribute that period of going through play to having the wife I do today, having the three daughters I do today. You know, play, I found out, is like, there's. There's a book called the Four Secrets of a Happy Marriage or something like that. Number one ingredient is play. Play. To both sexes, men and women, play is the most attractive trait, playfulness, because with women, it signals vitality, liveliness. With men, it signals safety, in that you're mentally healthy and that you're safe around children. Play is like one of the greatest superpowers that men have. You know, this is what fathers can really attribute to taking care of kids, is playing with them. We can rough and tumble. We can make them feel safe. We can teach them how to be comfortable in their bodies. You know, moms are essential, right? But like, dads, that's like, one of our few things that we can really bring to the table with little kids. So plays just. Yeah, to me, it is the ultimate kind of way of being for me. And what was interesting as well is I learned that a lot of the world's greatest workers believed play is the way they describe play as. This is how to go through life. From Aristotle, Alan Watts, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein. Like, they all attribute so much of their greatest work or their greatest source of happiness to play, and that it's this performance enhancer, too. You know, like, I got better at work not just in my output and my creativity and the quality of my work more efficiently, but, like, people enjoyed working with me more, you know, when I was playful. So I think it's just something anybody can. You know, tap back into even if they didn't have a very playful child. I have spoken to a lot of veterans and high performance athletes and stuff, and some of them just say, I don't. I didn't have a very playful childhood, you know, and it's like, cool. That is what it is now as an adult, you get to discover that and so easy ways to do it. You can sign up for improv. You can play with kids and just match whatever they're doing. You know, we all have this baked into our DNA. This isn't like a skill that if you didn't master it as a kid, you just don't have access to. It's like it's baked into your ancestry. You can tap into it.
- [33:43]
Ginny Urich
Okay, Charlie. Wow. Wow. I got chills. I was like almost crying when you talked about the kids. I've never thought about that. That's what I'm saying about your book. And it's not that long of a read. Like you could get it, you could read it. Same thing like you talked about Stuart Brown. Like, you could read this in a day and you're going to have all these perspective shifts. I never thought. My favorite book I read this year is Improv Wisdom by Patricia Ryan Matson. It's actually one of my all time favorite books. And I have. Yes. And it's like yellow. It's this really cool book. I haven't read it yet. I have that one. I guess this is like. This is like my thing, right? I have all of these. Haven't read it yet, but it made me think about, you know, when my kids are like, I made you this soup, you know, and you're like, oh, yeah, thank you. It's delicious. You know, and it's pond water with, you know, some weeds thrown in there. Wow, What a powerful thing. There is not any other book out there like this Charlie, that I read Played Away, where it's addressing this life where we're just like drowning in work. And it's very normal. It's like what everyone else is doing. So I think what a message to say that in a month. So you're trying this, that, this, that, and then in one month, you said, in less than one month, I was back to my old self. It was fun, painless, immediately effective. It wasn't hard. It didn't cost me anything. It was only a choice. And I want to say the quotes. This was one of my favorite parts of the book. Oh, no, I loved it, the book. There were so many favorite parts. But I really Love these quotes. It goes from page 47 to 49. I mean, you have person after person after person. Jack Nicholson, My motto is more good times. These are fantastic. Leonardo da Vinci. Life well spent is long. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. So you make this change and I love that you give the specifics. Like you did the basketball leave. You do the improv class. You go play home run derby. Instead of having a meeting at the coffee shop, we're going to just toss a ball around. Well, in this book, you lead the reader through four weeks, a four week plan of how they could do this in their life as well. So you, like, you make the compelling argument as to how this can completely change your life and then you walk the reader through how to do it. But before we get there, I want to just talk about the outside piece because you talked about this. One of the things that's going on, I think work nowadays, it's all inside, almost exclusively. I've done one podcast, two podcast interviews out of over 400 where the guest was outside. One of them was Dan Buettner, who's like the blue zones guy. And he was walking. He did it on a walk. He's like huffing and puffing. And I was like, that's great. And then the other one is one of my favorite authors named Shawn Diederich. And he was just sitting outside. He was at some cabin and he did it that way. But for so much of us, work is indoors. Tell us how the outdoors plays into this.
- [36:35]
Charlie Hohn
Thank you for all the kind words again, Jenny. It means a lot. I want to know how Dan did his outdoor podcast. Actually, by the way, I think he.
- [36:44]
Ginny Urich
Just held the phone and he walked.
- [36:45]
Charlie Hohn
Oh, he was just doing his phone. Okay, cool. Got it. So, yeah, how does the outdoors play into this? So, I mean, we evolved in nature. We evolved in fractals. And offices are artificial light and very flat surfaces. And yeah, I mean, like, I was just looking at this morning under desk treadmill, just to stay moving throughout the day. But like, there's also a bit of a sadness in that as well, you know, because you're, you're just a mouse on a wheel. It feels like. Yeah, it's just essential. My wife and I are obsessed with trees and so we live in Austin, Texas, where there's a bunch of live oaks and there's a number of walks where there's trees over the, the pathway. And I describe it as. It feels like you're going through a car wash for your brain when you're walking through this for whatever reason, it's got so many cleansing powers. And I used to geek. Like I came out with play it away 10 years ago and I was really geeked out and knew all the citations and everything back then, but I don't anymore. Part of the reason I wrote it down is so I don't have to remember it. But nature is, you know, you have to have doses of sunlight for your body to even function. I don't know what more to say beyond nature matters a lot. We're a part of it. And when we disconnect ourselves from it, we feel lesser, we feel worse, stagnant. I think there's some interesting research and I, I don't know, I. I don't want to say it with certainty of, hey, like this is fact, because I've, I've heard some of it feels woo, woo, some of it's not. But I remember watching a documentary, I think it was called the Grounded, and they showed cells in your blood. When you're grounded versus not grounded, the cells in your blood flow much more freely instead of just kind of slowing down and they spread out more. And so I think there's a lot to be said for that. I speak for myself. I feel a lot better on a day walking around at the beach or just being barefoot in the grass than I do walking around on concrete.
- [39:05]
Ginny Urich
Steven Rinella says that he's got a book out that's called Outdoor Kids in an Inside World. He's like, I do not need studies. Tell me I feel better when I go outside. So you've got your. People could see your backdrop. It's like this incredible set of books, like this bookshelves, really cool. And there's one sign that I can see and it says, get outside. It's like a little pennant. Like, it's really, really cool. So that's in this book.
- [39:32]
Thrive Market
Here's the thing, it's kind of gross out. And that's coming from someone who loves being outside. Even those of us that embrace the chilly weather need something to break up the long winter nights. So something I love to do, treat myself to a little something. But I don't want to spend a fortune on my winter blues, that's for sure. And that's where Quince comes in. With Quince, you can treat yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price. Something everyone needs in their closet, in my opinion. Quince's iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which start at $50. I just got mine and I love it. Or if you want to really up the lux factor, check out their Italian leather handbags, washable silk skirts and European linen sheet sets. Whatever you're looking for, all Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They're able to do that by partnering directly with top factories and cutting out the cost of the middleman, passing the savings on to you. Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. And of course, they use premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece. Like I said, I already got my Mongolian cashmere cardigan which is so comfy. And my down puffer jacket is now my Go to Outerwear for these cold Michigan days. Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.com outside for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside.
- [41:00]
Jack in the Box
What'S the best time of day to get a deal? All day with Jack in the Box's all day. Big deal meal. You get to choose from four entrees like the supreme croissant and five tasty sides plus a drink starting at $5. So hurry in or take your time. You've got all day at Jack. Every bite's a big deal.
- [41:22]
Alyssa Blask Campbell
When it comes to raising kids, there's so much to consider. Things like what do we feed them? When do we feed them? How do they sleep? What does it look like to raise kind kids? How does their nervous system work? How do I keep myself calm? What are my triggers? There's so much that comes into play and we are distilling all of that information for you at Voices of your Village podcast, where we bring experts in the field of early childhood and education and psychology and across the board so that you don't have to comb the Internet for information. You get to show up and hang out and have shame. Free judgment, free conversations and insights into what it looks like to raise kind, empathetic, emotionally intelligent humans. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I have a Master's degree in Early Childhood Education. I'm a mom of two and I am walking this journey right alongside you doing this work. Come hang out with me at Voices of your Village and we can can dive into real conversations with actionable tips.
- [42:22]
Ginny Urich
Getting outside and you talked about how improv class reminded you of father son baseball games from your Little League days. Tell us about that.
- [42:32]
Charlie Hohn
Yeah, I love that you brought that up. It Was one of my favorite things. You know, growing up was just the highlight of each year. Playing baseball was the father son games where the parents would play with the kids instead of sitting on the sidelines, you know, observing or criticizing or yelling or cheering. They participated. That was such a joy. I think sports are unusual in a way where you only get rewarded if you're more and more perfect as time goes along. Like if you're better and better and better and better. And I think this is why pickleball is taken off so much is it's accessible to everybody. There should be the ability to play any sport forever. I think there's so much opportunity in keeping sports alive and accessible for a lifetime rather than the brief period in your youth where you're at your maximum athletic ability. Right. Same with topgolf. Topgolf took off. It made golf accessible to the masses rather than just the rich, I guess, or the people who, you know, take it super seriously. I just, I love sports. I hate watching them. I don't like watching sports. I've never liked watching football. I like playing football. I would rather participate. And I'm not like particularly phenomenal at any sport. It's just I enjoy the act of moving around and chasing a ball or a frisbee and goofing off. And so those games were such a delight because I think that is the state we should seek to be in more. So like in the 50s and everything. There's a reason the sandlot is such a beloved movie is it's when kids were kids. You know, it wasn't the parents organizing the sport, it was the kids. There were no parents at the field. The kids were self organizing, self policing. They called the shots. And sports over the years, you know, to your point of the world being less playful for kids at times, you know, is sports are treated as like a pathway to becoming a professional worker. To see parents take sports seriously to me at any age before college is like wild. To me it makes no sense. I just don't think it's that serious. And yeah, and it shouldn't be.
- [45:13]
Ginny Urich
That's what you're saying it should. Like so for example, I was just talking to someone who. They're coaching high school volleyball in our area. Ninth graders coaching volleyball. And because of the how the high level that everything has gotten, the coach had to cut 90 students. 90, 90 students didn't get to play because they're not good enough. And you're like, well, there's no path forward there. How do you get. There's no way that you're going to ever get there.
- [45:43]
Charlie Hohn
Yeah, it's just a dead end.
- [45:44]
Ginny Urich
Yeah. These are such good perspectives. Wow.
- [45:48]
Charlie Hohn
Did you ever read Range?
- [45:50]
Ginny Urich
No.
- [45:51]
Charlie Hohn
So Range is an interesting book where they compare. The author compares Tiger woods to Andy Roddick and everybody knows Tiger woods path. He started golfing when he was a kid. His parents really like manufactured him. He's an amazing athlete obviously, but they put him on such an early track to be the most dominant golfer in the world. Whereas I think it was Andy Roddick took a totally different approach. His parents were like actively being like don't get too serious about anything. And he would play a variety of sports and he ended up becoming the best tennis player in the world. And I believe that book talks about. It's actually more common, significantly more common for gold medal athletes to start playing the sport when they're closer to 20 to like actually start than it is if they start when they're a kid. Because when you're a kid it's supposed to be play. It's supposed to be fun and it's supposed to be experimental. And seeing it like gaining a knowledge of yourself rather being than being just thrust into like this is the thing that you're going to do. Kids get robbed of autonomy in a lot of situations of, of like self discovery, the joy of the game and.
- [47:08]
Ginny Urich
Even the ability to play it. Right. That's the thing.
- [47:11]
Charlie Hohn
Right.
- [47:11]
Ginny Urich
It's really insightful about pickleball, Charlie. It's everywhere. There's this like a. Not abandoned but there's this like one where we live. There's like a movie theater and then near there's like this big, you know, thing of shops and there's one of them has been empty forever and they just, it's huge. And they just turned it into a pickleball club. And like the. It's constantly filled with cars. Gosh, is that insightful. Another cool thing about this book played Away is that you have all these links and I know the book is 10 years old but you can still go and like there's a Pinterest list of anxiety fighting content and there's like this is my favorite flying Frisbee. This is a link to a. I mean the videos or videos it links out too. So it's really like neat to have all of those little extras in there. And it's so relatable. You talk about this wanting to be permanently successful. That was a phrase someday because you're working so hard. Someday I'll be rich and permanently successful. And when I reach that point, then I can stop worrying and be happy. I think that in some ways it does happen for some people and that's why it's out there. I mean, if you're. You talked about Tim, I thought this is incredible to you. Just all, everything is so positive to say, great to work for Tim, he was so wonderful introduce you all these people. But you wrote, besides being a best selling author, he's got all these books, right? He's also a successful angel investor and advisor with Facebook, Twitter, Uber, Evernote, many others. He was also, and I'm not exaggerating, a Chinese kickboxing champion, a horseback archer, a world record holder in tango and fluent in five languages. So the reader just totally relates because you're living your like normal kind of blah life and you're like, well, shoot, you know, some people are like that and some people are permanently rich and successful because they've gotten so far in their lives. And you just feel like you gotta strive, strive, strive. So you know, you're relating to it and then you're like, look, if you wanna step out of this, I'm gonna give you a four week plan. Four weeks, that's it, One month. And I just think that it wraps up with this practical piece that is so helpful for the reader. Week one. One of the things you talk about is turning off the news. Tell us why.
- [49:28]
Charlie Hohn
Oh my gosh, I could write a TED Talk on this topic alone. I mean, the news is. Incentives are to just steal your attention and hold it. They know the way our brain works is the things that get through are novel information that we don't, we have not come across or threats to our survival. Like those are the things that bypass the brainstem. And it's like, this is important. And so everything is presented as, what is this wacky thing that you'll never believe this crazy novel information or this is a threat to your survival. How many times, if you completely took yourself away from news feeds and the news cycle, how many times is your life at stake during the course of a month, if you took that month away from the news? Basically zero, actually the biggest threat, which they would say not to plant the seed necessarily, but like anytime you drive, that's innately dangerous, right? And. But they never talk about that. Never talk about, you know, all the, all the health risks or whatever. Anyway, so the news is they make money by keeping you in a state basically of fight or flight. It's a tough business model. I have respect for journalists, but this, it's similar to like health Care workers like doctors and nurses. People get frustrated with the healthcare system. They don't get frustrated with the people. Like nurses and doctors are good people. I think journalists are good people stuck in a system with terrible incentives. The news, you know, like, I love the phrase that has taken off with the younger generation of touch grass, which. Which is just like, hey, you're a little too immersed in the online world and you're disconnecting from reality. My wife and I like to make a joke when sometimes she'll, you know, get worried about something and we'll. We'll stop and say, wait a second, would you have been worried about this at all if social media didn't exist? And the answer is often no. It's like these problems just get created, manufactured from the screen that we're looking at. So the more you can step away from that, the easier it is for you to step out of the fight or flight mode. Because, yeah, you're just constantly getting taken for an emotional ride.
- [51:56]
Ginny Urich
I want to write a couple or read a couple of the things that you wrote. It took me a long time to see it, but the news was the single single biggest source of my anxiety. That's huge. When I made the commitment to cut the news out of my life completely, my anxiety plummeted in less than two weeks. It reminds me, I read this book. Have you read the one? It's by Neil Postman. It's called Amusing Ourselves to Death. And he wrote it in the 80s. So, like, this is like, you know, I mean, early tv. He's writing this book. Like, this is back when there was very little content for kids. There's very little content. There's a couple channels. And he writes this book called Amusing Ourselves to Death. And he talked about the history of, like, when the telegram started and that that was sort of the impetus to be like, you know, well, we live in Michigan. I actually almost think that the example he gives is like this. We're in Michigan, you're in Texas, and you get this telegram from something that's going on in Texas. And you're like, this doesn't. This doesn't apply. Like, it doesn't matter to me and to my community. But that's what sort of was this groundswell of like, knowing everything, what's going on everywhere. And you wrote the news has to fight for your attention every single minute. This is the system, right? They care about the numbers. And so of course it's going to hook you in. Now here's what you wrote. And I thought this was really cool, Charlie. You replaced it, so you cut it out, but you also replaced it. What did you replace it with?
- [53:16]
Charlie Hohn
I just called it anti news, basically, which was like any media that elevated my frequency, so to speak, that brought me to a state of joy in peace. So music, calming music or joyful music, funny movies, books like Harry Potter. I'm a huge fan of anything that brings you into that state of joy. So I would recommend, like, for anybody who identifies as being type A or a bit of a workaholic. Don't read business books or personal development books which create a bit of a your incomplete or here's your next thing that you need to tackle instead. Grab fiction. Read bedtime stories basically to yourself. The more you can just focus on wholesome media. Don't watch scary shows, you know, like things that trigger these feelings that you might be unconsciously addicted to politics. I think a lot of the times I see people who are, you know, venting about politics and I don't see somebody who's passionate about politics. I see somebody who is using it as a scapegoat to express their anger that they have buried deep. You know, like, you're really passionate about politics. You would actually get involved, but you don't. You just want to, like, use it as a, as a means to vent. And so get yourself in a place where you're like, oh, I'm. I'm actually angry. I've been holding on to anger. Okay, cool, release that. But more, more so importantly, examine the sources of media that you have going on. Are they bringing you continually into lower frequency states of fear, depression, anger? Boost that up with healthier media for you.
- [55:12]
Ginny Urich
I love this. I read fiction books. I mean, what a change, what a change from someone who is working 24 7, tethered to the Internet seven days a week, and all of a sudden you're reading fiction books and you're playing home run derby and you're watching funny movies. I mean, I think people say, I have no time for that. I don't have time for that. Who's got time for a comedy album or uplifting songs? This is so good. You wrote, I didn't really miss anything. I was alive and the world kept turning. So you just go through week after week. There is a fantastic list. I love this. There's so many practical extras. So some of the ones you're going to go to a website, you're going to watch YouTube or you're going to have this list in the book of all these quotes from all these famous people. About play. This one has a list of just different activities and ideas. And I talked to this woman from. It's called screenstrong.org her name is Melanie. And she was saying kids should have three to five hobbies. My goodness, they should. That's a lot. I was like, do my kids even have three? I don't know. So then you go through all of these ideas. I mean, you have a fantastic list of. I mean, it includes TPing houses, whitewater rafting, TP in houses, ultimate Frisbee. And it goes from like, these are the ones you could do solo. Longboarding, painting, playing an instrument, playing with your dog, surfing, woodworking, writing, yoga, Legos, connects, kite flying. I mean, it's an extensive list. So here's the things you could do solo. Then there's another long list of things that you could do with a small group of people, two to four people, playing horse, playing Mario Kart, martial arts, ping pong, going camping. And then you have this list of things that you could do in large groups like dodgeball and dance parties. I just thought that is such a valuable resource, Charlie, for families to have is a reminder. I mean, like, print this out and put it up on your fridge. There are so many cool things that you can do that can replace that time when we're stressed out about the news. So you go through these four weeks. You're removing anchors, you're giving yourself permission to play. This is where you wrote, by the time I was 18, I'd lost interest in every sport because only the best were allowed on the field. That's such a key. We have to change that for our kids. You talk about fresh air and sunshine. You're talking about sleep, talking about taking naps. And then, you know, week three, you're talking about healing your body. In week four, you said something really interesting like. Like, how do you feel in the rooms you spend the most time in? I thought, gosh, that's a really good question. And you talk about taking unplugged nature vacations. What a book, Charlie.
- [57:45]
Charlie Hohn
Well, thank you, Jenny. I'm like, man, I'm happy I wrote it. This is wonderful. It's what a delight to hear.
- [57:52]
Ginny Urich
I'm happy you wrote it, too. I hope everybody picks up a copy and reads it because this is addressing. We always talk about the kids. This is addressing us, and this is addressing that. The societal breakdowns that used to protect our own mental health and our own happiness that are no longer there. And how do we get back to the spot where we feel better and we're showing up better in the world for ourselves, for our family, for our business partners. And what an honor, Charlie. I mean, goodness, you've done all these incredible things. I was so honored that you said yes to being on here. You help people sell books. That's become your full time job now. So people can find you at author.ink and also@charliehone.com. i'll make sure I put the links in the show notes. What a cool thing. We always end our show with the same question. And that question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [58:41]
Charlie Hohn
Oh, man. Well, thank you so much, Jenny. This is. The honor was all mine. A favorite memory of mine when I was a kid was in our backyard in Colorado. We lived on a green belt, but my dad and I playing in the evenings as the sun was setting, playing catch. And I called them as a kid moon balls, where he would just throw the ball as high as he possibly could and my friend and I would just see who could catch it first. And it was just such a delight. Thank you so much. Again, this was just highlight of my week. It's been awesome and I hope it's been helpful to your listeners.
- [59:31]
Ginny Urich
Well, thank you. The book has really opened my eyes. Gosh, it's like sometimes you're like, I've read all of these books, but I haven't read this. And this is such a pertinent. It will be pertinent forever. I mean, it will continue to be more and more and more pertinent. A book that you wrote a decade ago is more pertinent today, I think, than it even was then.
- [59:49]
Charlie Hohn
You had such a good point. So much of this stuff is for kids.
- [59:54]
Thrive Market
Yeah.
- [59:54]
Charlie Hohn
And so little is for the parents. And.
- [59:57]
Ginny Urich
Yeah. Nothing, Nothing.
- [59:59]
Charlie Hohn
Kids model their parents.
- [60:01]
Ginny Urich
Yeah.
- [60:01]
Charlie Hohn
And instead of the parents, like, trying to control their kids, play, just play and teach your kids how they can be too. And so I. Yeah, I think that's. That's a great point you made.
- [60:13]
Ginny Urich
Yeah. Keep on spreading this message, Charlie. Thank you so much.
- [60:15]
Charlie Hohn
Yeah, this was awesome. So thanks again. Big honor. Thank you.