1KHO 408: Raising Strong-Willed Kids Without Losing Your Cool | Kirk Martin, Calm Parenting Podcast

Summary

Podcast Title: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Host: Jeannie Urich
Episode: 1KHO 408: Raising Strong-Willed Kids Without Losing Your Cool | Kirk Martin, Calm Parenting Podcast
Release Date: January 2, 2025

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Introduction

In the inaugural episode of "The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast," host Jeannie Urich welcomes listeners to a conversation focused on the challenges and triumphs of raising strong-willed children. Special guest Kirk Martin, the host of the nationally acclaimed Calm Parenting Podcast, joins Jeannie to delve into effective parenting strategies that maintain composure while nurturing resilient and autonomous kids.

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Understanding Strong-Willed Children

Kirk Martin begins by defining strong-willed children as those who crave autonomy and independence, often challenging parental authority to assert their ability to make choices. He emphasizes that these children are not naturally rebellious but are eager to learn and navigate the world on their own terms.

Kirk Martin (02:14): "They don't want to lose their autonomy and their independence and their ability to make a choice."

He explains that strong-willed kids use their intelligence to argue and often prefer to approach tasks in their unique ways, which can lead to prolonged power struggles if not managed thoughtfully.

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Strategies for Raising Strong-Willed Kids

1. Giving Autonomy Within Boundaries

Kirk advocates for providing children with ownership over their choices while maintaining clear boundaries. This approach fosters responsibility without slipping into permissive or authoritarian parenting.

Kirk Martin (08:37): "I'm not saying, oh, if you want to get up and go to school or get ready for school. I'm not saying if you want to, oh, this is happening. I just don't care how you do it."

By allowing children to decide how they meet certain obligations, parents can reduce conflict and empower their kids to take charge of their actions.

2. Problem-Solving Over Reacting

Instead of reacting emotionally to challenging behaviors, Kirk suggests adopting a problem-solving mindset. This involves sitting down with the child to understand the root cause of their behavior and collaboratively finding solutions.

Kirk Martin (56:49): "Instead of reacting to your kids, it's more about problem solving."

This technique not only de-escalates tense situations but also models effective conflict resolution for the child.

3. Celebrating Unique Traits

Kirk emphasizes the importance of recognizing and celebrating the unique strengths of strong-willed children. By focusing on their talents and passions, parents can motivate their kids intrinsically rather than relying on external incentives.

Kirk Martin (22:27): "It's like, how can we celebrate the unique way that this child is made, knowing that all of these things, autonomy and internal motivation, all of that, that's going to carry them through life in very substantial and exciting ways."

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Embracing Autonomy and Setting Boundaries

Kirk shares personal anecdotes illustrating how granting autonomy within set limits has positively impacted his relationship with his son, Casey. He recounts mornings where he allows Casey complete freedom in getting ready for school, leading to Casey taking responsibility for his actions.

Kirk Martin (09:36): "Instead of me running around all morning making sure that you look nice, look, these kids are going to wear the same hoodie sweatshirt for like 18 straight days. And no amount of your parenting lectures... you just lied to your child."

This approach not only builds trust but also helps children internalize the consequences of their actions, fostering maturity and accountability.

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Managing Parental Triggers and Responses

Kirk discusses the inevitable rise in parental frustration when dealing with strong-willed children. He highlights the importance of parents recognizing their own triggers and learning to control their reactions to better support their child’s development.

Kirk Martin (15:05): "It's your own... a lot of a mindset shift and a lot of this."

By understanding and managing their emotional responses, parents can create a more harmonious and effective parenting environment.

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Success Stories and Personal Experiences

Kirk shares inspiring stories of how strong-willed children have thrived when given the right support and opportunities. He narrates the transformation of children who initially resisted authority but later excelled in various aspects of their lives by embracing their inherent traits.

Kirk Martin (32:14): "So 12 year old girl... she goes out on that soccer field, kills it. End of practice, two sets of parents came up to this girl and said, we don't really know you, but our daughters talk about you all the time."

These stories underscore the potential of strong-willed children to become confident, capable adults when nurtured appropriately.

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Reframing the Parenting Approach

Throughout the conversation, Kirk emphasizes the necessity for parents to reframe their perceptions of strong-willed children. Instead of viewing resistance as a negative trait, parents are encouraged to see it as a manifestation of their children's desire for growth and autonomy.

Kirk Martin (41:23): "The reframing part is a great way. Way to say that you're reframing actually your role as a parent... Can I do one little thing here?"

This shift in perspective not only improves the parent-child relationship but also facilitates mutual growth and understanding.

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Handling Yelling and Maintaining Calm

Addressing a common frustration among parents—yelling—Kirk offers practical advice on maintaining composure. He suggests simple yet effective techniques such as sitting down and observing before responding, which can transform chaotic situations into opportunities for problem-solving.

Kirk Martin (56:49): "Try this week, all I want you to do is walk in the room and sit. Because when you sit down, you tend to observe, you tend to ask questions, you tend to problem solve."

By adopting these strategies, parents can reduce stress and foster a more respectful and cooperative household environment.

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Conclusion: Embracing Growth Through Parenting

The episode concludes with Kirk reflecting on his personal growth as a parent and individual through the journey of raising a strong-willed child. He underscores the transformative power of embracing a child’s unique traits and the reciprocal benefits it brings to family dynamics.

Kirk Martin (43:01): "It expanded your world as a parent as well."

Jeannie Urich wraps up the conversation by praising Kirk's insights and the positive impact of his approaches on listeners, encouraging parents to adopt these strategies for a more harmonious and fulfilling parenting experience.

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Final Takeaways

• Autonomy with Boundaries: Empower strong-willed children by allowing them to make choices within clear limits.
• Problem-Solving Approach: Replace reactive behaviors with collaborative problem-solving to manage conflicts effectively.
• Celebrate Uniqueness: Recognize and nurture the unique strengths and passions of your child to foster intrinsic motivation.
• Manage Parental Triggers: Understand and control your emotional responses to create a balanced parenting environment.
• Maintain Calm: Utilize techniques like sitting and observing to handle challenging behaviors without resorting to yelling.
• Reframe Perceptions: View resistance and strong-will as opportunities for growth rather than obstacles.

Kirk Martin's insights provide a compassionate and effective framework for parents striving to raise resilient, independent, and emotionally intelligent children without losing their cool.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kirk Martin (02:14): "They don't want to lose their autonomy and their independence and their ability to make a choice."
• Kirk Martin (08:37): "I'm not saying, oh, if you want to get up and go to school or get ready for school. I'm not saying if you want to, oh, this is happening. I just don't care how you do it."
• Kirk Martin (22:27): "It's like, how can we celebrate the unique way that this child is made..."
• Kirk Martin (56:49): "Instead of reacting to your kids, it's more about problem solving."
• Kirk Martin (32:14): "So 12 year old girl... she goes out on that soccer field, kills it..."
• Kirk Martin (43:01): "It expanded your world as a parent as well."

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the conversation between Jeannie Urich and Kirk Martin, providing valuable insights and actionable strategies for parents navigating the complexities of raising strong-willed children.

Transcript

[Jeannie Urich]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jeannie Urich. Happy New Year. It's a brand new year, and with it comes fresh opportunities to grow, connect, and embrace the beauty of the great outdoors. This year, we're diving even deeper into the power of nature, parenting, and the little choices that lead to big transformations. Whether you are tuning in for the first time or you're a loyal listener, I'm so glad you're here. As we explore ideas and stories that inspire us to live intentionally, love wholeheartedly, and step outside, literally and figuratively, into the life we're made for. Whether you're just beginning your 1000 hours outside journey or looking for inspiration to keep going, you're in the right place. Yesterday, families from all over the world kicked off this journey, but it is never too late to join. You can start anytime and take small steps toward big changes for your family. If you're looking for tools to help along the way, our 1000 hours outside app is on sale now. It's a fun and easy way to track your hours and stay motivated all year long. Check it out on iOS or Android. Choose just search for 1000 hours outside on the App Store or the Google Play Store. And don't forget to check out my book. It's called until the Streetlights Come on for even more inspiration to embrace intentional living and create unforgettable memories with your family. Let's make this year one of joy, discovery and connection. And to kick things off, we have an incredible episode with Kirk Martin. Kirk Martin is the host of the number one parenting podcast in the nation, the Calm Parenting Podcast. It is an honor to have him here. And without further ado, here's Kirk.

[Kirk Martin]

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I'm getting all my hours outside. I think Casey and I, we hiked yesterday. We did a really long hike. We were trying to calculate how many. I think we probably get about 1500 hours outside. So we're full on with you, Jenny. We've taken your challenge.

Kirk, that's amazing.

All Right.

We're in it. We're gonna just go for it. Kirk Martin is here. He is the wonder and the, I mean, your podcast is like a top, not even just parenting podcast, it's like a top national podcast, the calm parenting podcast. And people are coming to you for help. They really need help, Kirk.

You know what's weird, Jenny? And then I'm really happy about is that I'm a guy with a parenting podcast and I'm not a psychologist. And so it's really neat because I think it's. Parents can relate to it, and especially men, because a lot of men won't tune into like a psychology type thing. They're like, oh, that's B.S. but then when I talk to them like a guy, they kind of get it a little bit. So I'm really, I'm very, very happy about that because moms consume you guys always joke like men go to bed and we forget we have children, right? But like a mom, mom wakes up in the middle of the night, first thought is like, how are the kids? How are the kids? So I'm, I'm happy that we're able to reach guys. But anyway, I just collaborative.

You're helping bridge that gap. And actually that helps people with their marriages too, because it gives you something to talk about, to connect over, to, consider. And so your podcast, the calm Parenting podcast, has hundreds and hundreds of episodes. This is the, the things that you're going for. Helping with power struggles over chores, homework, dinner, bedtime. Like these daily things. Helping with getting your kids to listen without yelling or begging, Helping with defiance, meltdowns, tantrums, arguing. Helping to get kids off of video games and screens without a fight. And helping single moms and also husbands and w get on the same page. You're helping with the daily everything.

Yeah, because that's where we live, right? Like, it's like the parents of the strong willed kids that we really cater to. Like you're exhausted by like 7:45am right? You can't get the kid out of bed. Doesn't. Whether you homeschool or not, sometimes they don't want to do the schooling. They won't eat the right thing. These are kids who wake up with an agenda, right? They're really bright kids, but they tend to use their intelligence to argue with you. So like that's your first 30 minutes is I'm going argue with you, outsmart you. Consequences don't work for them. So you can't go to consequences because they're like, fine, take away my toys. I don't care. Here, I'm going to bag them up for you. It's a struggle, but if you can kind of embrace this a little bit, it takes a lot of the stress out of all of the different fights.

I loved that you said 7:45am because that was funny. And I was like, oh, well, yeah, 7:45pm of course, you know, you're kind of terrible. It is true. It is true. Sometimes you're exhausted before you even begin. Help us, Kirk. Help us understand the strong willed child.

So I'll describe them a little bit and then let me do that. I'll try to do this in a minute or less. Wake up. They've got an agenda and these kids want to touch the hot stove. It's how they learn. And part of the really big insight, Jenny, is this, is that they don't care about losing things. But what they don't want to lose is their autonomy and their independence and their ability to make a choice. And you guys, all the parents out there, you've seen this. They will do things the hard way. And you're going to logically say, look, if you would just do it my way, right? Like, if you would just do what I asked, you'd be done in seven minutes. But you'd rather argue with me for seven hours or days or weeks or years and lose everything you own. But what they want most is they want to learn how to do it themselves. And it's going to trigger you as parents because you're like, we have so much to do. I'm smart. Do it my way. And they will fight you even more. And we can get into this if you want, Jenny, but. But when we give them some ownership of their choices within our boundaries. Because this is not permissive parenting. And it's not also like being so sweet with your kids all the time because they'll just walk all over you. But it's also not controlling them. It's giving them some space to own it and say, I know you said to do this. Can I try it a different way? And they'll touch the hot stove. They'll do it the hard way, and then they'll learn that way. And that's what you ultimately want. Because we're not really raising kids, we're raising adults. And one more thing, these kids are great in the adult world. We always joke, you know, Casey really well, Casey was virtually useless as a child. He just wasn't good in the kid world, right? Like all the kids stuff that they're supposed to Do. He stunk at that because he was an old soul. He was always good in the adult world. And so when you give a strong will child more of an a adult type job, they often kill it. You'll find all your neighbors are going to be like, oh, we love your daughter. And you're like, seriously, that daughter standing next to me who fights me eight hours a day. They're awesome for other people. So it's, it, it's a little bit. Well, it's a lot of a, a mindset shift and a lot of this. Jenny, as you know, raising kids is. It's not so much we're raising them, it's almost like we're growing up while we're raising them because we come face to face with all of our triggers, our control issues, our anxiety. And that's why it's so important to get outside at least 3,000 hours a year.

It gives them a lot of autonomy. It absolutely does. A place where they can make their own choices. I mean, when you said these are kids who want to do it themselves, I thought, well, how wonderful. I mean, that is a wonderful character quality to want to do things yourself. We've got some kids that want to and then some kids that don't. They want you to do everything for them.

Right?

And I'm like, I don't want to put your socks on you anymore. And I, you know, so there are some wonderful things about a child who has an agenda. That's also a great thing. But when we're talking about, in the course of family life, let's walk through a typical day and how that could really upend everything and what might be a helpful way. So let's say you've got a child who wants autonomy and they don't want to go to school. They don't want to get up when you want them to get up. They don't want to put their shoes on. And that's a really legitimate situation. But you got to go, you've got a timeline. How do we deal with that particular situation?

So I'll try to do a few of them, but my favorite thing is giving kids ownership of their choices again, within your boundaries. And what I'm really saying, Jenny, is I'm not saying, oh, if you want to get up and go to school or get ready for school. I'm not saying if you want to, oh, this is happening. I just don't care how you do it. I relinquish control over, you know, with homeschooling. Look, the work's Got to be done how you do it. Don't care if you want to do your homeschooling work in a closet underneath your bed, you want to sit out in a car, you want to meet up, create a fort and put a blanket over the table. And you can use a flashlight underneath the kitchen table and eat all the Mac and cheese and chicken nuggets that fell off your plate from the night before, because that's all strong will kids eat anyway? I don't care. So here's my favorite morning routine thing to do. Forgive me. People are messaging me, and I don't know if you can hear that, but I just did that. Anyway, this is real life.

You're in the fire zone.

We are in a fire zone. So. And I'm fired up because I'm talking to you. You're one of my favorite humans on the planet. Casey was so excited. He's like, you have your interview with Ginny tomorrow. I wish. Beyond that, we love you and we appreciate what you're doing. You put yourself out there and you. You bring all these different people together. Like, seriously, you are like. You're like the female Joe Rogan without all the downsides and weirdness and conspiracy. Anyway, so thank you out if you want, but no but you bring all these people together and you're so curious. So here's my favorite morning routine. I did this with Casey back when he was going to regular school. We homeschooled not because out of choice, but because he got kicked out of every school. We had no other choice.

And he is wonderful. I love when I get a chance to see him. And I. And I want to just to reiterate that we go to conferences. You and I speak at the same conferences. We have never crossed paths, not one time. Those conferences are busy. But I have spent a fair amount of time just hanging out with Casey. And I so enjoy hanging out with Casey. And so what an interesting thing like that is something that would almost scar your soul a little bit to be the kicked out of school kid. You know, it's almost like a black mark you could take with you. And yet it doesn't matter. People love him.

Let's do that next. On that kids internalizing shame and that they're the bad kid. Let's do that next. Let me do the. So here's my favorite morning routine. Casey. Here's the deal. Every morning, the school bus or the carpool leaves at 7:23am I always like really interesting time limits with strong will kids because it sticks in brain A little bit. And so here's the deal. I have one goal for you. In the morning, I just want you on that bus in that car at 7:23am I don't care what you look like, I don't care what you smell like. I don't care what's in your stomach. If you're smart enough to wear the, the clothes to bed that you're going to wear to school the next day, you can sleep until 7:21, roll out of bed, grab the Pop Tart. I know you hid underneath your bed because you hoard food up there. You can run out to the bus. You don't even have to have your shoes on. You can leave your flip flops or your shoes on the bus the day before. I don't care. Get it done. Now do I care? Yes. Because I'm a parent and I have anxiety and control issues. And I want him to get up early and get exercise and eat avocado and blueberries and good antioxidants. So his brains, I want all of those things. But you found with a strong willed child, the more you try to force what you want, the more they just resist. And so I step back. When I step back, it gives my child space to step up. And what would happen is Casey would obviously sleep until 7:22 and then he grabbed the Pop Tart and he'd run out to the bus. And at the end of the day when he got home, I would just give him a fist bump and say, hey, Case, nice job making the bus. Now did I like the way that he got ready in the morning? No. But he owned it. And when his stomach hurt in third period because he hadn't eaten breakfast, well, guess whose stomach that affected? His. And so instead of me running around all morning making sure that you look nice, look, these kids are going to wear the same hoodie sweatshirt for like 18 straight days. And no amount of your parenting lectures of like, honey, it's cold outside today. You need to wear a jacket or you're going to catch a cold. And then you just lied to your child. You don't catch a cold from cold weather, it's from germs. You just don't want the other parents and teachers to think that you're a bad mom, sending your child to school with no jacket on. And when you step back and you're gonna have to practice this, moms and dads, it's hard. You actually give them space to step up and learn to be responsible. And what happens is over time, they'll come down and they'll be like, oh, my stomach hurts every day in third period. And you can't be snotty. Yeah, I know. I've been telling you, eat breakfast for the last six. None of the snotty stuff. Moms and dads, you just say, yeah, I know. There's this thing called breakfast. It's available every morning. You could even fix it for yourself. And when they finally own it, they'll get ready in a better way. But they have to own it first. It's like one of the core principles is strong will. Kids have to reject what you want first before they can own it themselves. And they will do it with their. Your faith. Because they don't want to believe because mommy and daddy want me to or made me. So Casey was really tough on this, and he really pushed back hard. And if you get very defensive with faith stuff, it says you're not confident you'll shut down conversation. What I wanted is for him to come to it on his own so that he believes and that. See, now he owns it. And that's what we all want in life, is for our kids to actually be responsible for themselves. As long as I'm lecturing and micromanaging, I'm actually being responsible for my child's behavior. And you pointed this out, Jenny, the Stronghold kid is like, go for it. It just means it's going to be ugly at times, and they're going to touch the hot stove and they're going to fail. And I'd rather you come along and give them a fist bump and say, I love that you have the confidence in the spirit to try that yourself instead of waiting for me to do everything for you. These are great traits.

Yeah, they're great traits. I got emotional when you said, I gave him the fist bump. Nice job making the bus. Because it's a concession. It's a big concession to say, I'm gonna let go of the whole breakfast and the smoothie and the. I'm gonna let go of, is your hair brushed? How do you look? How are you presenting yourself? How are you representing our family? I'm gonna let go of all of that. And you would just see that your whole life will be so much more smooth and so much more like, hoorah. You know, like this. Have to let a whole lot go.

Yeah, it's your own. Look, I. I don't do blame or guilt at all. It's just a recognition of I'm a control freak because it served me well in life. Right? Like being in Control of things and being very organized and doing things a certain way. Well, it served us all well. And for some of us, if we have childhood issues, you grew up in a chaotic home or maybe a parent was an alcoholic. Well, then you took control of the situation because that made you feel safe. Well, then you grow up and you find out, wow, I control my spouse. I try to control other people's opinions, other people's beliefs. And we get into this whole thing of where we no longer actually like or enjoy or love people. We're too busy trying to control them. And that's my own issue. And so there's no blame or guilt. It's just like, I will be so much more free in life when I can look at a child or look at my neighbor and say, I don't have to control how you vote, how you think. It is liberating in my own anxiety as a parent. That's, I think, Ginny, that's our number one enemy. As parents. We project into the future, right? And it starts with preschool. Well, my pre. We got a call from the preschool. My daughter's not following directions. I'm like, she's not supposed to. She's five, right? Like, is she supposed to be sitting still? Crisscross applesauce, right? Like circle time. Circle time is stupid. No offense to anybody, but you never do circle time after you're like five. Nobody's going to tell you at your office today. Like, hey, Frank, Sally, 3 o'clock in a conference room. Circle time. It's an arbitrary standard. And so but we project out in the future and think, well, or your middle school child who's in their hoodie sweatshirt, right, for 18 straight days looking at a screen, you're going to project out and think, who's going to marry this child? Who would possibly hire this child? And what happens, Jenny, is then we start lecturing them and correcting all the time. Like we correct and correct and correct and then they begin to internalize. That's the Black Sheep syndrome. Something's wrong with me. I'm a bad kid. And it's even worse if you have a strong willed child and then you have a more compliant child in the home. Because now we've got kind of Cain and Abel about to happen with resentment toward, well, my brother or sister just goes through life and they do everything well. They get their schoolwork done really quickly and they have great manners. And here I am always touching the hot stove and dad's always correcting me. Well, once you start internalizing, I'm a bad kid. There's something wrong with me, man, that'll destroy a kid. Then they either shut down or just become outwardly defiant. And so we don't want that. Obviously.

There's a lot here. There's a lot here. Does. Here's my question, Kirk. If you give the child the autonomy and you say, look, my only thing is you got to be at the carpool at 7:23. I don't care how you do it. So you're handing them some autonomy. There's ownership, but there's boundaries.

Right.

Does that fix it for the most part, or is there still the child that says, I'm not going to get to the thing by 7:23?

Well, there's always different things going on. In fact, in a podcast we're doing that I just recorded, you go through different things for morning routines. So one of them may be a child who has anxiety and who struggles going to school or to that new taekwondo class. Well, just saying like, hey, you got to be on the bus at 7:23. They're like, why do I want to be on the bus? Like, I don't even want to go to school. So then you have to get to the root of the issue of like, oh yeah, of course my thing with anxiety is of course you don't want to go to that new class, that taekwondo class. You don't know anybody there. You don't know what the expectations are. You're not always great at following like multi step directions. Of course, of course you'd be a little anxious. And my step, my strategy for, for anxiety is wherever kids go, ask another adult to give them a job to do. These kids are very mission oriented. So if a teacher says, oh, and some of you, Jenny, some of followers or homeschoolers, and you do like a co op and some of your kids don't want to go to the co op. But if the co op leader says, oh man, I really need your help. You are so good at doing X every Tuesday and Thursday when you come to co op, could you get here a few minutes early and help me with this project? Well, our kids like feeling helpful and needed and doing things that they're naturally good at. The taekwondo instructor says, oh man, I need your help. You got to get here like five minutes early every week. See, now your child's not thinking of all the unknowns and the anxiety. They have their mission to do. So to your point, nothing really fixes the strong willed child. I don't think you'll ever not have Struggles in some area. But when you can go from like 12 power struggles a day down to four, well, that's manageable for a mom or dad. So there's nothing that really it. It's always going to be hard now when they're adults, you're going to love it. Like you said with Casey, like all the traits that irritated us about him when he was a kid are the very traits that just helps him crush it as an adult. Like he has a job outside of working with me and he kills it. We, Jenny, we were on a 10 mile hike yesterday. We had to decide are we going to go down this way or this other way where there is a sign that said there's a moose carcass. And we knew from before some bears were fighting over it. Well, the strong willed child says, chance to see some bears. So we took the long route to go by the moose carcass and we did get to see a cute fuzzy bear running away from us, fortunately. But those are the things of like the strong willed child's gonna be like, let's go for it. I don't know if I answered your question or not.

Well, you did, because what you're saying is you have to also know, are there other factors? So if you give your child the autonomy, you can get to the school bus however you want to get there. And yet there's still some issues there. Then it may be anxiety, there may be, like you said, and there's other solutions there. It reframes everything. Kirk to be this is positive, this is uplifting, this is exciting, it's still hard. But how can we celebrate? And that's why I love that you talk, you use the word celebrate. It's like, how can we celebrate the unique way that this child is made, knowing that all of these things, autonomy and internal motivation, all of that, that's going to carry them through life in very substantial and exciting ways.

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[Kirk Martin]

To check out your podcast. Like I said, it's a top national podcast. The calm parenting podcast. Over 400 episodes and they're bite size. I mean they're pretty short. Like you're dealing with this issue, that issue, I mean it's apparent and and their spouse could listen to it, you know, pretty quickly in a day.

I try to do about 22 to 25 minutes specific focus work on that this week I try to make it very guy friendly because moms consume. Moms read every parenting book there is. So I try to make it. Yeah. So I, I hope what people find is it's pretty practical and yeah, I love it. I like doing it.

Talk to us about apathetic kids.

Oh apathetic kids. So you'll have kids who will shut down because look the way we do our society now you obviously one of the reasons you're such a thought leader in this area is that you really work with kids nature and you're doing life differently with your kids. But when you're, if you're stuck in kind of like normal school system, we'll take a strong willed child who is. We tend to tell our kids this, hey, your childhood is going to be graded on good behavior and good grades. Well, the strong will child's like I'm 0 for 2, why would I even try? Right? And so they shut down. So sparking internal motivation is huge. And the shortcut for it is this as I would make a list of your child's natural gifts, talents and passions. What are they really good at doing? Who do they connect well with? Strong will kids tend not to be good with their peers. They naturally struggle with kids their own age. So it's brutal what we do to them. Like oh, for 12 years of schooling you will only go to school. Your class will all be only kids your own age. They don't connect with those kids. They're really good with little kids, with adults and with animals. So I make a list. Here's what my child, where my child thrives and then provide opportunities to do that in your neighborhood, your, your school, your, your church. I'll give you two quick examples. But you get a kid who's really good at tinkering with things and, and making things. Well, you don't get a grade for that in school. Like some of you have kids who can build a robot from scratch, but they can't do a worksheet, right? And it's like, do your worksheet, do your worksheet. And I'm like, he just built a robot from scratch. I think he's going to be okay in life. But if you get them down the street doing some work for an older couple, by the way, senior citizens are fantastic with strong willed kids. Our kids are old souls. They connect. The older people are just sitting around waiting for Jeopardy to go come on every night. They would love like if you're a homeschooler, seriously, I would send my strong will child down to the older person's house during the day and let your kids do schoolwork there. They'll have a great time, they'll connect and then you can enjoy your compliant kids at home. But I try to get kids out. I'll give you one example, Jenny. So 12 year old girl, mom was like hoodie, sweatshirt girl, bad attitude, won't do her schoolwork. What consequence can we give her to get her motivated? And I Was like, you can't consequence a kid into being motivated. So I said, what is she good at? Love soccer. Little kids. So I said, go to in the neighborhood, find a coach who's coaching little kids in soccer and say, hey, I've got this daughter, Love soccer, loves little kids. Could she volunteer? Could you use your help? And if you get another adult to ask, your child can't be your idea, because if it's your idea, they'll reject it. Honey, I think it would be a really good I'm out. Right? So. But it. So here's what happened. We had the soccer coach talk to her and say, oh, Rebecca, I've heard you're amazing with little kids. Love soccer. I could use some help. I'm a little bit overwhelmed Tuesday night. Could you come out and help me? This girl goes out on a Tuesday night. Bad attitude for her parents. She's out on that soccer field, kills it. End of practice, 12 little girls come up and hug her. She's using her gifts. Her gifts are being pulled out of her. On Saturday, there's a game. Coach asked her to work the game. She does. After the game, two sets of parents came up to this girl and said, we don't really know you, but our daughters talk about you all the time. They're struggling in school. Would you consider tutoring our daughters? Not knowing that this girl had not done schoolwork in years. Right. But now watch the difference. Honey, you need to do your schoolwork. You have to be prepared for your future. The lectures mean nothing, blah, blah, blah. But now another kid needs my help. Another adult is asking for my help with academics. And that coach said, if you don't keep a B average, don't listen to your parents and do your chores. You're not working with my kids on this soccer team. Oh, now I have a motivation to do it. So the hard part, Jenny, is we all know what we're motivated by. Good grades, good behavior, good manners, good. All those good things. That's not what strong will kids are motivated by. So you have to go underneath, inside their heart and find what motivates them. What does your child care about? And it's likely different than something you care about.

That was a real story.

That's a real story. That was my Rebecca. Yeah, she. Yes. And I. I've done that with a lot of kids where if you get them out working and doing things, serving, you know, part of that, not an epidemic, but like with our teenagers and anxiety is with all the social media, it's all about me, me Me, well, that's not a good way to live. And it's not about being selfish. It's just that I don't want to be too focused on me. I'm not that awesome. But if you get a teenager out serving, helping an old couple down the street, walking a dog, serving other people, they start to feel like, like I'm needed, I'm helpful. That's why a lot of, you know, you've seen this. A lot of youth groups in middle school will go on missions trips. Why? Because it's about that age. You've got to get your focus off of yourself and onto other people. But again, it's not a lecture. You know what? You need to think of someone else besides yourself. The lectures aren't helpful.

Yeah, sure. And, and that is things that we say to kids. You're so self centered, you know, I mean.

Yeah, well, we all are. Right? Like, but at that age you're kind of supposed to be. But instead of that, like, here's a quick one because this will be in your, your families will struggle with it. Two kids are fighting in the living room. Instead of just coming in and saying, you go to your room, you go to your room. I buy you all these toys, you have these video games. I don't know why, you can't even play well together for 20 minutes. Instead, I look at the provoking child because there's always a provoking child. That's the strong willed one. And I said, h, you know what I know about you? Your brain seeks a lot of intensity because that's what they're after. Not an attention. It's intense emotional engagement. And so what I learned as a kid is if I roll my eyes at my parents or poke my brother or sister, they react to me. And that feeds my brain intensely.

Intensely.

Yeah, they're awesome at it. They can poke ever. I always say, Jenny, your strong will. Kids are like your best therapist because they will, they will push every single button you have. And you can be like, like, thanks for letting me know. I didn't know I had that one until I had you. Now I can work on another one. Make my list of all my triggers. But now I can look at that kid and say, I know what you're looking for. You need your brain to be stimulated because you shut down. You get bored easily. So two things I know about you, son. You have a big heart. Never toward me, but toward other people. Leave out the sarcasm. But they do. They have big hearts toward other people. And you love money. A lot of Our strong willed kids really love money. Not in a bad way. They're not selfish. So two options for you. You may continue to pick on your brother or sister, but all that ever happens is you get in trouble and lose your stuff. Or while I'm fixing dinner, if you want to come in and help me. I bet we could brainstorm three different ways to make some money in the neighborhood. So now, instead of just go to your room, stop being a little jerk. Which is kind of the message we send at times, it's, I know what's going on in your brain. You're seeking intensity, intense emotional engagement. And now you're just getting it in a negative way. But I can show you how to get it in a positive way where you can make some money, buy your own things, donate money to St. Jude's for Kids with cancer, and I'll even match a certain amount of that. Now I'm taking it from being bad kid. Cut it out. To let me show you how to do that in a different way. Can I do one more, Jenny? Because this is a. Casey. Yes.

Yes.

Tell me when to stop talking. You just tell me to shut up.

No, I. I just want to listen.

So two things with Casey. So one was I would notice he would walk into the living room and his eyes would be like a fight, a flame on fire. And he just wanted to argue with me. And before I learned how to control myself, well, that's what I would do. And I remember one time we were living in Nashville, he walks in the room, room. And I said, I know what you're looking for, my intense emotional engagement. And I need to apologize to you because for the first 11 years of your life, all I ever did was react to you, go into the courtroom and argue with you. And I sent the message that the best way to get my emotional engagement is to push my buttons. And I apologize. But I know what you're looking for. So I'm not going in the courtroom. Because you're better at arguing than I am. Because they're like little attorneys, cops and judges all rolled into one. But if you want to go do X, Y or Z, man, I will give you my full intensity. I'll put down my phone. So that was one. It was redirecting. It's realizing what they're looking for, meeting the internal need instead of reacting to the outward behavior. You probably have heard this story with us, but there's one time where he just. I mean, he used to do this a lot, but he come at me with attitude. You have every right to say, young man, you're not going to talk to me like that. And one time, Jenny, he said, just did, right? And so he's like, and yeah, the sweet Casey that you know is not the Casey that we knew. And so what I said is, instead of reacting, stop taking things personally. Moms and dads, you take everything. I can't believe that they would say, why can you not believe that? Why can you not believe that a 13 year old girl is going to have some attitude? I can't believe she's sassy.

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Why?

[Kirk Martin]

Why? My whole thing was like, what took you so long? So I stepped back and I said, hey, Case, every time I hear that tone in your voice, it tells me you're anxious, you're frustrated or you're hungry. Because to this day, those are Casey's three triggers. That's why when we go hiking, I take an extra sandwich because he turns into a bear on the trail.

Say it again. Anxious, frustrated, frustrated.

Were hungry.

Those are triggers for all of us.

Yeah, they're pretty common. So now. So Casey, so two options. One is you may continue to talk to me like that if you want, because he can. You just can't do it without a consequence. You're going to end up losing your driver's license. Whatever it is not the most effective, but I'm letting him know there's a boundary here. My tone is even matter of fact instead of, you can't talk to me like that. I don't want to go, oh, honey, you just must be dysregulated. I hate moms. I'm not meaning to make fun of you, but you can't do that tone with a strong willed child. They will run all over you. So even matter of fact tone says I'm in complete control of myself. I'm not moved by this. So Case, you can talk to me like that if you want. Even matter of fact, no energy. But if you want to grab some chips, I'll grab some salsa. I'll meet you on a deck, I'll help you with whatever you're struggling with. So your child comes at you with attitude. It's natural for you to be shocked and think like, that's disrespectful. I can't believe my child is talking to me like that. So register that for a second. Don't react to it and then say, I'm the parent though I have wisdom to help you. Hey, Case, something's going on. You're not going to get away with it. But I really Want to lead you to problem solving. You grab some chips, I grab some salsa. That's called motion changes emotion. I like kids moving. I like me moving. I like moving to a different place. Meet me over here. Here. And I'll help you with your anxiety, your frustration. Or we'll eat chips and salsa and we'll both be happy. When I started doing that with him, so many of those power struggles went away and we turned it into a problem solving session. And I'll be quiet in a sec. My overall thing was, Casey, when your world is out of control, mine's not. So I can handle you at your worst when you, when you come in here on fire. My world's not on fire. I'm the grown adult and I can help you. And so what we started to do is teach him, oh, that's anxiety. So now I could teach him tools to deal with his anxiety, his frustration, instead of, stop talking to me like that or you have to go to your room. I don't like sending kids away from me. I like drawing them to me as much as I can not.

I hear through this whole entire thing, Kirk, is that, that your life has expanded. And I think the entire thing is a reframe all of these qualities that these strong willed kids bring. Even when you say their brain is seeking intensity. What an awesome thing. There's a lot of really cool things in life. That's great. As opposed to, you know, if you're kind of more apathetic, you don't really care about anything. You know, the brain is seeking intensity. And then. But you're talking about your own self as a person, of how much you have grown and learned. And what's really cool is you're still doing it. You're still parenting in a way that honors an adult child whose brain seeks intensity. You went on a 10 mile hike and saw a bear yesterday. That's incredible. So I like this way of looking at it. Like this has offered you. I feel like this has expanded your life as a parent as well.

It's totally changed me as a human being. Me.

Yeah. To this day, up until yesterday, you've got this kid. I think it's really cool that you have an adult kid who wants to go on a 10 mile hike with his dad.

Yeah, with me. Yes. I love. I mean, we fought for so long, but we're so much alike. And so the point, it changed me. Like when you have a strong willed child, they're going to provoke all of your triggers and you can get upset and be like, oh, he's so disrespectful. He's all of this. And like, no, your child is just pointing out all of your immaturity. Look, I'm older, so I can say that the older you get, the more you realize most of life is just about my own immaturity, about my own stuff I have to work on. And so Casey, actually, literally, I'm not supposed to use that word literally. Someone on Instagram was like, can we please stop using the word literally when we mean figuratively? And I was like, could we please not stop using we as a collective? And could we stop getting triggered over things? And missing the entire point of my post because I'm a strong willed jerk as well, Jenny. And so. But him coming along, if I would have had an easygoing child who was just compliant all the time, or if my fear and intimidation approach would have worked and that child would have kind of been like, yes, yes, yes. I would have never grown up. Up. But now I had to grow up and it had. I like how you say that. It's expanded my world just to see people in a different way. That we all have our weaknesses. We're all kind of broken people.

Yeah, right.

Like, you may not realize it. The older you get, the more you realize. Like, I have almost like, it's always when I was younger, it's like, oh, I just make choices. I have a choice to make and I'm going to do it. And then you get older and you're like, like, I'm making choices based on something that happened to me, like when I was 5. Not blaming stuff on my childhood, but there's stuff in there. And so when I meet people now, even on Instagram, like I was saying, it's. I have to watch my own little smart mouth responses and be like, that's someone who has been hurt and that's why they're acting out like that. And it expands your world. I don't know. I love how you said that. And the reframing part is a great way. Way to say that you're reframing actually your role as a parent from. Well, I just need to walk around and correct kids all the time and make sure they do this to. I'm teaching them, like, as they get older, Jenny, I realize these kids are just experiencing these things for the first time. Like, can I do one little, one little thing here?

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[Kirk Martin]

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[Kirk Martin]

So little kids, like, when they're toddlers and they're crawling around and doing things and they're about to bump their head, you kind of come over and you pick them up and you move them and you redirect them because you don't want them to bump their head. But sometimes, like, even when they get to be 5 and 6, then we start to go and you know what? Cut it out. You didn't listen to me. Now you're going to bang. And then we have teenagers and they're, they're exposed to things that we weren't. Right? Like, it's a whole brand new world of like, I, I hope this isn't inappropriate, but these kids have access on their phones to like porn. Their friends are vaping all these things and we get. So it's not that I want to excuse that, but it's like when they were little, we came along and we redirected them and helped them because they didn't know what they were doing, doing and we were guiding them and same with a 14 year old. It's just that they smell more now and they have a bad attitude, but they're just navigating the teen world for the first time. They're feeling things in their bodies they're not even control of. And then they have access to like social media. Now I know your kids don't. That's part of what's awesome about getting them outside. But for a lot of kids, they're just navigating this for the first time time. So instead of taking it personally and getting all upset, it's like, let me come alongside and show you how to deal with these new challenges that you're facing. And so then instead of being like parent and child against each other, I'm coming alongside you because I've been down this path before and I want to show you a way where it's not gonna, where you're not gonna bump your head, where you're not gonna get addicted to things. I, I hope that makes sense.

It, there's work involved and I, and I almost wonder if that's like one of the biggest misnomers is that like, this is not going to be that much Work. There's work involved. You're going to have to figure out how to hook your child up with a soccer coach. You're going to have to get to know your neighbor, your elderly neighbor who might need some help and introduce them to your child. But in all of it, with all of it, both for the child and for you, there is expansive growth and a lot to be excited about and enthusiastic about. I've talked to hundreds of people, Kirk. They are enthusiastic about getting outside. Not one of them went on a 10 mile hike yesterday with their grown kid. Not one. Except for you.

Yeah, it's all well, I'm also lucky. He likes being outside and he knows that he's a jerk if he doesn't.

His brain seeks intensity and I just wonder, it makes me think like, okay, what different type of person, what different type of life would you lead now without him? I, I don't, I'm just enthralled with it because you're always outside in these beautiful places. You're putting out these videos, you've got your, you've got your hat, you know, you've got this whole thing and the backdrops are like stunning. And in part this is because Casey's brain seeks intensity and you're there along for the ride.

Yes. And you know what else, Jenny? Another good insight with these strong will kids is they won't so hard to say. They won't compete on the same playing field as you. Like I was really good at ball sports as a kid. Super athletic, competitive. We tried that with Casey, he just wasn't his thing, but he was really good at skiing, skating, all the things that I wasn't good at. So out in the mountains here in the winter, he skins up on his skis, does backcountry stuff and we do these hikes. That was, was his area. See as a dad, I wanted him. We're going to play baseball and basketball and be good at all the things I was into. And the strong will kids, I think they're, they're smart like this. They know like, like I work a lot with say like doctors, like parents who are a doctor and some professional, their kid knows I can't compete with you academically. So they go into these different fields. So even us moving out of out here, like these hikes, I have done hikes out here I never would have done last. Last week we did a 23 mile hike where we went over the mountains to the other, like a traverse over and through these things and I'm like, how am I going to do that. I'm getting older. And Casey's like, you can do it. And then he calls me, you know, names, motivational swear words. Because we're older, we can do that. We're boys. And so it gets me there. But. And then, and then, Jenny, you know what the funny thing is? On some of the local hikes, we're on this little app. And so my goal is to set the record in my age group for everything.

Hey, what's the app?

It's on Strava.

Well, that's so cool, Kirk.

So I own almost all the records in my age group, but sometimes I'll set out to. I'll beat Casey at the end of the season so that I can brag to him and be like, just get beat by your old man on that hike. I own the record. And he's like, it's snowing now. I can't be here yet. So. So we have a lot of fun with it. And I think your point is, is too, if instead of fighting the strong willed kids so much, embrace it. Engage them, enjoy them. Jenny. There were times when he was a kid when he'd be disrespectful, like a little mouthy, and there were times where I was like, that was actually a really good comeback. Right now you're not going to drive for a couple days, but really appreciate your wit, right? Like, and if you can lean into that a little bit, it's a beautiful thing. And, and, and I do want to encourage the parents. Parents go for the long haul because this is what I was after is grown child and hopefully grandkids and hopefully really strong willed grandkids. So he has to raise one of those as well would be awesome. So it's good for my business. It's funny, wherever we go, we'll be sitting like at a local coffee shop and you'll see like a mom walk in with, like two kids. I'll be like, that one's making me money. I'm getting a podcast. Listen for that, you know, because there's. The one comes in like this and they're like, I want to go get this, this. And the other one's holding mommy's hand, the nice, compliant child. And I'm like, I live for those strong will kids because they're gonna. They change the world. They're not afraid to challenge people, and they're not afraid to challenge you. And so, yeah, this is. Yeah, it's awesome. And that's why I love the getting out, like the getting outside thing for strong Willed kids is so foundational because it opens up their world and then they can go explore. And if you hide stuff like we used to do, homeschooling in the world woods. Go hide stuff in the woods. These are kids who are like fearless and they will go for the hike. Now they may complain at first, right, Jenny? They're going to be like, I don't want to go outside. And what I found is you just lead. Don't try to convince them. Oh, but honey, the fresh air is really good for you. They're not looking to be convinced. You just walk and walk. My legs are going to fall off. Look, if your legs fall off, could I take a picture of that and put it on Instagram? Because that would be really cool. And I don't respond to it. I don't just lead them, but once they get outside. And it's one of the beautiful things that you're doing because look, you can talk all day about getting kids off screens and all the strategies, but once you expose them to outside and eating next to a chipmunk. And the other day I was doing a video and there was this little. I forget what they're called. These little. They're not ground squirrels. I forget what they're called, Jenny. But I tried, I tried to do my video to get him in the picture and he was just standing up there. And then I had a fox that was in the background. You get your kids out there, they discover like this big world. Well then guess what? This isn't so appealing. Like we saw a bear yesterday feeding on a moose carcass. That's a lot better. So it's the idea of replacing of something genuine. Right. It's like when you have. When they go down the street to help that elderly couple and that couple loves on your child. Child and dotes on them and gives them cookies and, and, and they come home, they're like, Mrs. Henderson said I was the best helper she's ever had. That kind of connection, that's genuine and real. Yeah, just posting on, on social media is empty. And so what you're doing, Jenny, is you're actually one of the leaders in probably helping kids get off screens. And you don't even have to say that. That.

Yeah.

But the mere virtue of getting outside. So anyway, I love what you're doing.

That's what we always say. Kirk. Our best days are the days where we just run out of time for screens. It's not a policy, it's not a rule. It's, hey, we had a Wonderful day today. We did stuff. We cooked in the kitchen, we went outside, we went to the library. We just. We read good stories, we did things. And there was no time for screens.

That's awesome.

And that's the solution. That's the answer. So there's no fighting about it, because there's just no time for it. I love what you said, genuine and real. Because a lot of kids are not getting those types of experiences. Genuine and real. So what a motivator. Kirk, let's hit one last topic before we wrap up. Parents don't want to yell. They just don't. There's not one person that says, I wish I yelled more. And I read a wonderful book by Michaeline Duclef called Hunt Together Parent, where she said, in other cultures, they don't yell. I had a little bit of advantage because I taught high school before I became a parent. So I had many years where if I lost my temper, the whole class would turn into chaos. So I had to learn how to keep my peace. And that has served me really well in parenting. I read a book about love and logic that yelling does nothing. It just gets the kid mad at you instead of internalizing their own consequences. And then I had years and years and years to practice. So when I became a mom, I just already knew this isn't going to do anything. But your blood pressure does spike and you got tantrums and kids are screaming and you're in public and people are watching, and we don't want to be yellers. How do we handle that?

You know what? I'd start simple. So try this moms and dads, next time this happens, which will be probably within three minutes of listening to this podcast, there's some chaos going on in your kitchen. Child's misbehaving, doing something wrong. Walk into that room and just sit down. Just sit. Don't fix it. Sit and observe and then talk. Even matter of fact tone. It was that sibling example. Hey, what's going on with you two? Hey, I know what's going on. Because your brain needs to be stimulated. So you're picking on your sibling. Give yourself permission to not fix everything thing. Part of the yelling comes from, I'm frustrated. I don't know what to do. I give you guys all these advantages. I do everything for you, Mom. Stop doing everything for your kids. That's your issue. Okay, I'm not being harsh on you, but stop doing everything for them because then you get resentful. But try this week, all I want you to do is walk in the room and sit. Because when you sit down, you tend to observe, you tend to ask questions, you tend to problem solve. And that's a lot of what if anybody's watching who works like in the corporate world world, like when things are going wrong at the office, you don't walk around like screaming at people. You sit down with them and you're like, hey, sales are down. What's happening? What's the root of it? And then you problem solve. If there are guys watching, a good quarterback doesn't come into the huddle. You know what? You don't know how to block. You keep fumbling the ball. Let's go score. No, a quarterback reads the defense and the quarterback says, here's our play, here's what we're going to do, do. And then they lead. So instead of reacting to your kids, it's more about problem solving. But try this sitting. I'll give you two. One is sit, practice, even matter of fact tone because you're going to want to say something. But with a strong willed child, the screaming tone just says, oh, I'm under mom's skin, Dad's losing it. I'm just going to keep pushing buttons because they love that intensity, that really sweet tone. Sounds like I'm not confident in and I'm kind of begging you to listen to me. And that's where that too sweet thing has gotten out of hand. And the kids walk all over you. Right in between is me walking into the room. Seven year old is jumping on the sofa. I'm not going get down off of my sofa. But I'm not gonna say, oh buddy, we don't jump on the sofa because the strong will child's gonna be like, well, but we don't. But I do, right? Like what are you gonna do? So I walk in and say, hey, hey, jumping on a sofa, not happening in my home. But I love your energy. If you want to come help me move some topsoil, if you want to shovel some mulch. Jenny, a lot of the kids we work with, they love physical work. And that's where yours, your work comes.

In that heavy work.

Heavy work.

It's regulating. I know we joked around the dysregulation thing, but heavy work because it's all of that input on the joints. So my midwife would say, look, look, show your kid a pile of logs and ask them to move it to a different spot in the yard. Because it's heavy work.

Yes, I would encourage you have a go a couple go to things that they can do outside in the basement, in the garage that are heavy and if you say especially in the middle of a meltdown because when they're melting down, just so come Tom down honey. Doesn't work. And that I just did a video on this one of oh, let's have him punch a pillow. Punching a pillow is so unsatisfying. Have you ever punched a pillow? There's nothing to it. I may as well punch the air. But moving something physical so a mom can say, oh, I just remembered dad had some mulch in the backyard that he didn't get to. I don't know if you're strong enough to do this. See, there's the challenge, right? I don't know if you can do this. Strongville child's like I can do anything thing. And then going out there and just dumping some mulch out and moving it. Digging, rock climbing, climbing on your house. Climbing up tree. Put some food up in a tree. It's my Jenny. It's my favorite morning routine. Thing is, hey, you wake your child up. Hey, I hid your breakfast outside. Bet you can't find it. And now they have to forage for their food and they're outside. And it's awesome because your strong willed child is outside eating with the chipmunks and you and your compliant kids get to actually enjoy breakfast together without the strong will child complaining. But it is a very grounding thing. I'm glad we ended on something that's related to yours of getting outside doing heavy physical work. We live out west now. If I had more energy for kids, we'd do our camps again. And I just put on I can see horses over. There's so much to work to do out here, here. And then we could go climb in the mountains and, and anyway it, what you're doing is fantastic and I so appreciate you.

I so appreciate you. Kirk. You come at it from a playful way, a creative way, a way that is intriguing. Like what could I do? Instead of. I think that the, the general consensus is woe is me. I got this hard kid. If only I would have gotten this easier kid. Or if only this kid were like that kid. And I know everyone who listens to this makes it to the end. Their mind is spinning. Oh, wait a minute. This is really cool. What could I do? What could be the solutions? And it makes all of us better people, better problem solvers, people who look at the world and, and come up with different types of solutions. And so in that way it enhances everyone. Kirk, I just adore talking with you. I adore talking with Casey. The podcast is the Calm parenting podcast. It talks top podcast in the entire country. You can find [e-mail] where there are courses that you can take, even things for your marriage, which is hugely helpful. Kirk, what an honor. Thank you so much for being here.

We love you. Casey said. He just texted and said, tell Jenny I said hi. So we will not see you at the next convention because you and I don't see each other there, but Casey will. Okay, Keep up the awesome work. Jenny, you're awesome.

Thank you, Kirk.