1KHO 409: Screens are Experience Killers | Mike McCleod, GrowNOW ADHD

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast – Episode 1KHO 409: "Screens are Experience Killers" with Mike McCleod, GrowNOW ADHD

In Episode 1KHO 409 of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, host Ginny Urch engages in a compelling conversation with Mike McCleod from GrowNOW ADHD. Released on January 3, 2025, this episode delves into the pervasive issue of screen time among children and its detrimental effects on their development. Mike shares invaluable insights into how excessive screen use serves as "experience killers," undermining essential childhood experiences that foster executive functioning and overall well-being.

Introduction: The Critical Role of Outdoor Play

The episode opens with Ginny emphasizing the importance of granting children uninterrupted time outdoors. Mike passionately echoes this sentiment, stating, "We're saying that what is so important about kids having a childhood going outside the best thing for them? Play childhood. We got to give kids their childhoods back." [00:46] This foundational belief sets the stage for the discussion on the adverse impacts of screen time and the urgent need to reintegrate outdoor play into children's daily routines.

GrowNOW ADHD: Empowering Families and Schools

Mike McCleod provides an overview of GrowNOW ADHD's mission and services. "We provide executive functioning coaching and parent training to families all across the country and internationally," he explains [01:43]. The organization not only offers individual coaching but also works extensively with schools, training educators and administrators on the latest research in executive functioning. Additionally, GrowNOW ADHD runs specialized programs such as a college success initiative, a failure-to-launch program for young adults struggling with independence, and an executive functioning summer camp that combines social skills training with outdoor activities.

The Gap in Executive Functioning Education

A significant portion of the conversation highlights the lack of executive functioning training within the education system. Mike asserts, "executive functioning training is not a part to become a teacher" [03:48], pointing out that most teacher education programs offer minimal to no instruction on these critical skills. This oversight contributes to an education environment overly focused on standardized testing and measurable academic outcomes, sidelining the development of executive functions that are paramount for real-world success.

Screen Time: The Modern Adversary

Mike delves deep into the consequences of excessive screen time. He describes screens as "experience killers" because they monopolize children's attention and prevent them from engaging in activities that build necessary life skills. "Executive functions are the greatest predictor of success for human beings, period," Mike emphasizes [11:02], contrasting academic achievements with the need for strong executive functioning in navigating higher education and the workforce.

The discussion includes alarming anecdotes, such as young children being required to use iPads for basic math assessments. Ginny shares a poignant story where a five-year-old was given an iPad, leading to feelings of exclusion and dependency on digital devices. Mike highlights the inappropriateness of such practices, noting, "These are babies we're talking about... They haven't even lost a tooth" [08:48].

Impact on Behavioral Health and Academic Performance

The episode underscores how overexposure to screens exacerbates symptoms of ADHD and other behavioral issues. Mike explains that screens "increase inattentiveness, increase dysregulation," and "hardwire the brain towards instant gratification," making it challenging for children to engage in tasks that require sustained attention and self-control. This behavioral shift not only affects academic performance but also hinders the development of crucial interpersonal skills.

Solutions: Advocating for Outdoor Play and Reduced Screen Time

Transitioning from problems to solutions, Mike advocates for a balanced approach that prioritizes outdoor play and limits screen access. He draws parallels with Finland's education system, praising its emphasis on experiential learning and unstructured play, which contributes to higher academic and social success rates. "Human beings are social animals. They were made to be outdoors," Mike states [17:34], reinforcing the need for children to interact with their environment and peers beyond virtual interactions.

Practical strategies discussed include:

• Designated Screen Time: Implementing strict boundaries on screen usage, such as limiting homework-related screen time to one hour per day and removing devices thereafter.

• Community Engagement: Encouraging parents to utilize community resources and support groups to advocate for reduced screen time and increased outdoor activities.

• Experience-Based Camps: Promoting attendance at camps that focus on outdoor activities, social skills, and life skills without the presence of screens. Mike describes their summer camp model, where children engage in activities like escape rooms, scavenger hunts, and sports, fostering teamwork and problem-solving skills without digital distractions.

Success Stories: Transformative Outcomes

Mike shares inspiring success stories from families who have reduced screen time, highlighting significant improvements in children's behavior and academic performance. "The child is naturally more regulated, more regulated to have 50, 50 conversations and use their perspective taking skills and social executive functioning skills," he notes [50:04]. These testimonials underscore the transformative power of outdoor play and the positive ripple effects of limiting screen exposure.

Conclusion: A Call to Action for Parents and Educators

The episode concludes with a passionate call to action for parents and educators to prioritize outdoor play and limit screen time to foster healthier, more balanced childhoods. Mike emphasizes, "Nature and outdoor play is the answer to your problems," urging listeners to take proactive steps in integrating more outdoor activities into their children's lives. Ginny and Mike agree that reclaiming childhood from the clutches of digital addiction is essential for nurturing well-rounded, resilient individuals prepared to navigate an increasingly complex world.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike McCleod: "Executive functions are the greatest predictor of success for human beings, period." [11:02]
• Mike McCleod: "We're saying that what is so important about kids having a childhood going outside the best thing for them? Play childhood. We got to give kids their childhoods back." [00:46]
• Mike McCleod: "Human beings are social animals. They were made to be outdoors." [17:34]

This episode serves as a crucial reminder of the irreplaceable value of outdoor play in childhood development and the pressing need to address the overuse of screens in today's digital age.

Transcript

[Ginny Urch]

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[Mike McLeod]

Thank you so much for having me back. I'm so excited about this. That first episode was amazing and I also keep getting a lot of messages about it. And like I told you before we ever recorded, you know, Grow now adhd, A Thousand Hours Outside, we share that same message. That is so incredibly important. So hard to hear for a lot of parents, but it's the truth. We're what is so important about kids having a childhood going outside the best thing for them? Play childhood. We got to give kids their childhoods back.

[Ginny Urch]

Absolutely. Okay, before we hop into all of the information, the nitty gritty, I just want parents to know because I do think that a lot of parents are desperate. A lot of school systems, they're desperate. The districts, they don't know what to do. Everyone's struggling with screen use, they're struggling with behavior problems. So just before we get into all the questions, I would love for everybody to know what you have to offer so that they know where to go and where they can find answers for their families.

[Mike McLeod]

Sure. Absolutely. So you can find [e-mail] you can find me on Instagram at grownowadhd. What we provide is provide executive functioning coaching and parent training to families all across the country and internationally. And what I personally do myself is I travel the country and internationally training schools, entire school districts, private schools, groups of professionals on the most upto date research on executive functioning, really practical information that these schools and these professionals will be able to use the very next day with all of their loved ones and their students and and all of that. So very practical information that really helps all students whether they have ADHD or not. And then as part of Grown out adhd. We have the executive functioning coaching, of course, but we also provide other services to families in other situations. So we have an entire college success program for individuals in high school preparing for college and of course also for current college students, because we talked about it on the last episode. That massive jump in executive functioning needed from senior year of high school to college has become a major, major problem across the country on college campuses. And college dropouts are drastically increasing. So we have an entire college success program for college students. We have an entire failure to launch program for those young adults that are stuck at home, stuck in the basement, not working, not going to school, and really need a lot of direction in their lives. We also run an executive functioning summer camp that is expanding to various other states. So we run an executive functioning experience based, relationship based, social summer camp where kids not only get to travel and have great experiences, but learn various social executive functioning life skills, money management, and all that good life skill stuff.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow. Tell us why. Tell us why the jump from high school to college is becoming a bigger leap.

[Mike McLeod]

Oh, absolutely. Because overall, there's a million reasons for this, but overall, executive functioning training is not a part to become a teacher. So I know in getting my master's degree in speech language pathology, we talked about executive functioning for maybe a day or maybe it was on one or two slides. It's not part of the training to become to get a master's degree really for anything to work with kids. So one of the biggest reasons is that it's very, very difficult to measure executive functions. There's never going to be a true standardized test to measure executive functioning skills because like we talked about in the last episode, executive functioning is your imagination. It is mental play. And you can't put a standard score to that or a standard deviation or an age equivalent. And what are American schools obsessed with? Testing, testing, testing. Do as much standardized testing as possible. We need to be able to put every single kid on a totem pole and give them a reading score, a math score, a writing score. We need to understand what districts are doing the right thing. So who gets the funding and who doesn't. So all we do is test, test, test. So if something can't be tested and something can't be measured, then it's very hard to put funding behind it and very hard to put it in the curriculum. So once again, everything comes down to money and education. That's one of the biggest reasons is there's very little executive functioning training in the school. So teachers are not prepared to do it. And just overall, the ability to. So kids are really focused on test scores. It's all about academics, academics, grades, grades, grades. So kids are not getting the varied experiences needed to be successful at college. And another thing that we're doing in schools is we are over accommodating our students. In today's world, the sizes of IEPs, the sizes of 504s have doubled and tripled. So IEPs now are 75 pages. 504s are every single copy and pasted accommodation in the book.

[Ginny Urch]

When I was a teacher, it was really hard to manage because I remember I had a class one time, it was like a entry level math class in high school and there was 32 kids in the class and 16 of them had either an IEP or a 504. 16 of the 32 had accommodations. And so as a teacher, what the heck are you supposed to do? They all said like, needs to sit in the front row. I'm like, I don't have 16 seats in the front row.

[Mike McLeod]

Correct.

[Ginny Urch]

And then they're legal documents, so you're pretty bound. Like I, I remember having, I maybe, I don't know if we talked about this. I had a meeting that the parents and a lawyer had come in and I had, I mean, I had dotted my eyes and crossed my T's, I had all my stuff together. I had done all the accommodations, but I had to sit in this meeting with a lawyer where they were saying that maybe I hadn't. I mean, it's, it's a lot that.

[Mike McLeod]

Is absolute commonplace now. So like I can tell you right here in the Pennsylvania area, a lot of these districts have an entire team of lawyers under salary through the district now because they need to defend themselves against the lawyers that all these parents are bringing in. And I'm not, you know, there's, there's two sides to every story, all those sorts of things. But we all have to agree there's never been a harder time in history to be a teacher with. All these things are happening and teachers are getting blamed for all of these mistakes that schools are making. And teachers are in a 100% lose, lose battle. It's the truth. And they get blamed for everything. And it's a really hard thing. And one of the biggest things is the conversations that I have with teachers. Teachers hate these school computers, these school laptops, you know, this what Big tech, Big tech has an absolute stranglehold on education. And all of these kids getting their personal Chromebooks and kindergarteners getting iPads. This is one of the worst Things to happen to education in the history of education.

[Ginny Urch]

Okay, I keep interrupting you, but there's a story. I spoke at a school district on Sunday, and at the end there was a time for questions and this mom raised her hand and she was crying. She got super emotional and she said, they gave my 5 year old an iPad.

[Mike McLeod]

Yep.

[Ginny Urch]

And all his friends say, my mom lets me use it for Roblox. And I don't want him to use it for Roblox, but I don't want him to feel left out. But he's feeling left out. And I thought, who in their right mind is giving a five year old an iPad?

[Mike McLeod]

I literally did a school training a couple of months ago where the kindergartener kindergarten teacher was telling us about how she had to give her kindergarten class a math assessment on an iPad for, for a kindergarten class. So in order to prepare for the assessment, because of course the district wants the kids to get flying grades so they can look good, they had to prepare on the iPads for hours and hours and hours before. At one point, the kids didn't have enough time to finish, so they had to bring their iPads to lunch and silently work on the iPads doing math during the lunch period.

[Ginny Urch]

Joke.

[Mike McLeod]

These are babies. These are babies we're talking about.

[Ginny Urch]

Literally their baby teeth.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

They haven't even lost a tooth.

[Mike McLeod]

Yep. Sitting there eating Lunchables pizza and while doing math on an iPad.

[Ginny Urch]

It puts a parent in awful positions because I'm like, how is that mom? Now that mom is having to navigate a five year old feeling the peer pressure to be on screens. I've heard parents talk about it all over the country that the textbooks are on the screens. They don't even have an actual physical textbook. There's all sorts of research about how the actual book helps you to learn better, but. And your eyes work differently when you're looking at a screen device rather than when you're looking at a piece of paper. This is insane.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah. And, and the biggest problem is these districts, most of them refuse to put blocks on these things. So I can't even begin to tell you how many schools I've consulted with where on a daily basis, weekly basis, whatever. You have students at the school, on the school campus, on the school computer, looking at adult websites on the school computer. I can't tell you how often this happened. It's increased bullying. Bullying is now worse because kids are finding ways to use Google Docs and different things to, you know, do cyberbullying while they're at school. And you're what? All we're literally doing is you are basically asking a child to sit in an unbelievably uncomfortable desk and chair, listen to an, an incredibly boring lecture, because that's, you know, what we have to do. You know, most of these lectures are boring and teachers are just doing their job. Hey, you know what? Kid wants to learn about the Pythagorean theorem and the Civil War and that kind of stuff, but you're basically asking them to. You're putting a slot machine in front of them. You're putting it right in front of them. You're not putting any blocks on it. And you're telling a young child with a barely developed brain, a tiny little prefrontal cortex that is not fully developed until 30 years old. You're asking them to listen to a lecture, sit there, take notes, comprehend the lecture when they have open access to the Internet sitting right in front of them. I can't tell you how many times I've done teacher observations. And the entire class is online shopping, looking at memes, doing, looking at their fantasy football team, playing Roblox, playing Minecraft on addicting math games, dot com, messaging each other like, what are we thinking? What are we thinking?

[Ginny Urch]

The answer to the question of why are they not adjusting to college?

[Mike McLeod]

There's your, there's your answer. There's. That's exactly it. This is exact. This is exactly it. So the executive function, it's not academics. So all of these kids, this is what parents have to understand. All of these kids are getting accepted into this college for all the right reasons. They have the grades, they have the SAT scores. Many of them had, were over accommodated to get those grades. And now kids are getting crazy accommodations for the SATs, but that's another story. But they're being accepted.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, they are not really.

[Mike McLeod]

Oh yeah. The. Oh yeah. There's an unbelievable list of accommodations now for the SATs. And some kids need it, some kids don't. You know, it's a, it's every kid's their own unique individual. I'm not, I'm not saying all accommodations are bad. What I am trying to say is that accommodations need to fade over time. That's. So while we're talking about accommodations, it's very important that our listeners understand not all accommodations are bad. Kids need accommodations, but they have to fade over time. We have to ask yourself, is this an accommodation that is realistic in college and realistic in the workplace? If it is not realistic in those two places, it has to fade over time. You can't Keep the same accommodation from kindergarten to 12th grade. And many parents have that mindset of we can't go from an IEP to a 504. We can't go from a 504 to just as needed. That document has to stay with them from day one until graduation. It has to fade over time. But what I'm saying is, is overall, the academics kids are getting accepted to college for academics, Pure test grades, pure iq. But as we know, executive functions are the greatest predictor of success for human beings, period. Way more than iq. There's lots of, you know, we have our twice exceptional kids with genius IQs that get a plus on every sing test, but they have very little to no executive functioning, which often makes them unable to be successful in college, unable to be successful in the workplace. You need executive functions in that jump from 12th grade senior year to college. And if you don't have executive functioning, you're prompt, dependent, and mom and dad aren't going to move into that dorm room with you. They're not going to tell you to put the phone away and go do your homework in the library. That red countdown clock is not going to follow you to college. You need to know that. You need to get some sleep. You got to eat well, you got to go outside, you got to meet people on your own, you got to get to class on time, you got to set office hours, you got to sit in the library for a bunch of hours and not stare at your phone and check your notifications. Executive functioning is needed to be successful. And these kids today, growing up in front of screens, spending like being on screens at school, being on screens in the afternoon, they're not having the varied experiences and the outdoor play needed to develop executive functions. And they're going to college not ready. And we are seeing unbelievable amounts of kids dropping out of college ever since the rise of screens.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow. Okay, So I had this dream when Covid happened. I was like, if someone could just put me in charge. I was like, I know what to do. I was like, what we should do is we should take small cohorts of kids and move them through the fabrics of society that are in their area. So, like, one day they're going to be at this park, and then the next day they're going to be at the library, and the next day they're going to be at the museum and then this park, and we'll just move them through into these places in our area, and then their kids are going to be out and still having relationships and they're not going to be in a school with a thousand kids. But nobody asked me. It was the answer. No one came to me to get my knowledge.

[Mike McLeod]

They should have.

[Ginny Urch]

If you were in charge of building a school day, if they let you be in charge, you should be in charge. I want you to know that there is this district that I grew up in and I might be going to the school board meeting next week that's trying to take. They are. They took recess from 30 minutes to 20 minutes for 6 year olds. I was like, I am livid about this. 20 minutes two times a day. The kids get 40 minutes of recess in a seven hour school day. It is absurd for little, little kids, first graders, second graders. If you were in charge, what would a school day look like?

[Mike McLeod]

That's a very simple answer. And it would look exactly like school looks in Finland. It's literally exactly like that. Finland has the number one education system in the world. And what Finland did is they took all of America's research on what works best, what are the best education based practice. All the research that was done here in America by American researchers, American scientists, American sociologists. They took our research that we ignored, stole it, used it on their, borrowed it and use it on their school system. And they have unbelievable success. And the best way to measure their success, obviously they have unbelievably happy people, very low levels of poverty, low levels of unemployment, great work, life balance, those sorts of things. But one of the best ways to measure the success of their education system is. All right, that had the right word. Eric. And when they graduate, kids have the option of do you want to take more classes to continue your educational journey? If you want to. Here's some more classes, but you've already graduated. It's optional. If you want to do it, you can. And I think it's around 95% of the kids choose to continue taking classes. In America it would be a flat zero. Let's be honest, it would be zero. Not a single kid in the world. 0.00%. Those kids continue to do it. Teachers there are on the same level as doctors and lawyers. There is recess and outdoor play and unstructured play from kindergarten until 12th grade. So teenagers are playing. Recess never ends. They have great community partnerships. So the kids are going to different workplaces and learning from police officers and firefighters and grocery workers and mailman and all those sorts of things. And it's a lot of project based learning where kids are being given a task. They're asked to do some self learning about it and then they join together as a class and they have open discussion to break down what they all learned. It's not this lecture listen model of American education where the teacher is just going to lecture, lecture, lecture. You sit there and listen, regurgitate what you just learned on a test and then forget everything I just taught you and focus on the next test. That's basically our model of education.

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[Mike McLeod]

There's a great book called Finish Lessons. I have it right here. Finish Lessons. I highly Recommend Finish Lessons 2.0 by Posse Solberg. I did a podcast with a great friend of mine, Carrie Ebert, who is one of the greatest speech pathologists of all time, who also is a great defender of play. She is amazing. Definitely follow her and check her out. Her and I did a podcast called Education Chapter Chat where we read every single chapter of this book and did an episode of every chapter. And it is absolutely fascinating. You read the. You read this book, you're going to show up to those PTA meetings fired up, because you're going to see every single thing that we're doing wrong for our children and in our schools. Number one, of course, being tech in schools and laptops.

[Ginny Urch]

Unbelievable. I was going to ask you why are kids failing to launch, But I feel like we have covered that in depth here.

[Mike McLeod]

Screens.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah. Wow. Screens. So, okay, we homeschool. Our kids have never taken a test. Our daughter is in ninth grade. She's going to take her first test next month to become certified National Academy of Sports Medicine. Certified a personal trainer at 14. That's going to be the first test that she ever takes in her entire life. And I am. I'm here for it. I'm here to tell about it. I'm going to have a story to tell, you know, in retrospect, no tests. Okay. So we homeschool. We're in that spot where we have a little bit more freedom to choose for the parent who is in this system. And they've been given an iPad for their five year old and they are inundated with tests. What should they be doing outside of school in the afternoons, the evenings, and on the weekends and in the summer to mitigate some of the detrimental effects of how we've set up the school system for American kids.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah. So there's obviously a number of options there. What parents need to do is understand the law is you have the number one, you have the right to opt out of school. Technology. The schools are going to push back as much as possible. They're going to continue to say, no, we can't do that. Every student needs it. Your kid's going to feel left out because they don't want to put more work on the teacher, where everyone's online and one kid needs things printed out. But you have the right to opt out of it. If you are willing to take that step. But what every parent needs to do is utilize your community. So every school district has a community and most school districts have a Facebook page or a Facebook group. Do whatever you can to get other like minded and fired up parents with you to have your back and go to these school meetings. A lot of these schools have already been incredibly successful at banning school laptops and banning cell phones at schools. We're starting to see this, you know, this motion into play now that enough people have read the Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt and they've seen the research and those kinds of things.

[Ginny Urch]

People need to read my book.

[Mike McLeod]

Yes.

[Ginny Urch]

I'm a little incensed about this.

[Mike McLeod]

Plug it. Plug it.

[Ginny Urch]

Yes. It's called until the Streetlights Come On. How Return to Play brightens our present and prepares kids for an uncertain future. I feel like it's just as part of the answer as the anxious generation because of course kids have to play in order to be prepared for the future. So I'm plugging it because they're sending that book to all these school districts, but I feel like mine should go to.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, hell yeah, let's do it.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, together. Also, I am a mom doing it right now, so I'm like, you need the books from the parents who are like, what are you actually doing? And there we go. There's my plug for my own.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah. And you know, you need to get the masses together, go to these school board meetings and fight against technology. Like, parents are like all like, we can chat today about parents who are just waving the white flag against tech and they're just doing everything they can to just find ways to just mentally just tell themselves that this is a losing battle. Technology is the way of the future. All of that. Technology has always been one of those things where the younger generation is better than the older generation. So this whole concept that kids need school computers so they can learn how to use Word and Excel and learn how to do research, it's all nonsense. I'm not saying get rid of all of it. You can still have a computer lab at school that kids can go to for a period a day or an hour a day. But having personal laptops is a massive, massive mistake. You know, kids know how to use Word, they know how to use Excel. They like, come on, they're going around these firewalls and doing what they want. So stop waving the white flag. Kids having too much access to tech before their brain is fully developed increases signs of inattentiveness, increases dysregulation, hardwires their brain towards instant gratification and greatly decreases their chances of doing any non stimulating or non preferred task. So you have a kid on tech for an hour a day, or eight hours a day, nine hours a day. How are you possibly going to get that kid to brush his teeth, to shower, to go outside, to call a friend, to run an errand, to have a conversation with you? Nothing is going to be as stimulating as that technology. And we're asking kids to do all of these things. But their brains are hardwired towards being in full control. So when you have a child who is on screens all day, they're in full control all day. On the virtual world, the touch of a button, they can control something. They're on video games all day, they're controlling what's happening. And then the real world where they have little to no control is going to give them a lot of anxiety. And that's what we're seeing in today's world. They're in the virtual world all day where they have complete control. Even in video games where they can lose and things happen, they're still with a touch of a button controlling a character. If they're in the virtual world, they're in control and they're learning instant gratification. In the real world where we need skills, there is no such thing as instant gratification. It is all self regulation and delayed gratification. So if your child spends all their time in the virtual world, the real world is going to give them a lot of anxiety. And that's exactly why we're seeing increasing rates of school refusal. They're running out of medication for adhd. It's becoming a real problem.

[Ginny Urch]

This is a really big deal.

[Mike McLeod]

Very, yes. The screens are very, very like parents. Too many parents out there are just giving up and they're looking at these screens as something that just cannot be avoided. And they're starting to just tell themselves these cognitive distortions about screens. And I think this is a very important conversation for us to have is these cognitive distortions that parents are starting to believe that are keeping them from eliminating screens from their house. And when I say eliminating screens, we have to be honest. There are okay screens and there are addicting screens. There are screens that were made to be addictive on purpose. TV is always going to be the lesser of all evils. When TV was the only screen in the house, we weren't seeing these problems. We weren't seeing school refusal like this. We weren't seeing shortages of Adderall, we weren't Seeing the anxious generation, we weren't seeing these things. We weren't seeing massive mental health problems with an entire generation when it was only television. Television is sitting back, you're passive and you're watching it. One thing we don't want is we don't want kids watching YouTube videos of other kids playing video games on the TV. So get YouTube off your smart TV and just let them watch a show. They'll eventually get bored and want to go outside and do something else. Okay. The bad screens are smartphones, of course, terrible for the 18 and below brain. All video games, new video games, which is the Xbox, the PlayStation, the Switch, the online games that are unbelievably addictive. The Roblox, the Fortnite, the Minecraft, that were made to be addictive, especially to the neurodiverse brain. This is something I don't see enough people talking about is these big tech companies are purposefully creating these addictive games with our neurodiverse children in mind. When they see ADHD kids, kids on the spectrum, they see dollar signs. They know that they are making these things. Knowing that these kids are going to have screens and get addicted and this is every day going to be there. So these kids are being preyed upon by big tech. And that's what fires me up so much to talk about technology and screen. So much.

[Ginny Urch]

Well, that's interesting too, Mike, because, okay, this what makes me think of. Because then there's going to be parents that push back and say, it doesn't affect my kid.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And that's the truth. There are going to be some kids that are not affected. It's the same with the food. And there's a big thing right now out there about the food and especially, same thing, kids with adhd, that the food is affecting them, the food dies. People have these certain stories that are like, my kid was a nightmare and then I changed their food and it helped them. But then other people, the food doesn't affect them, so they push back and they say it's not a thing, it's not really a big deal. This is that cognitive dissonance. And so I know that's so interesting, Mike. I've not heard anybody say that.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, yeah. And, and so basically those bad screens, of course, the iPhone, video games of today, if you have a GameCube or an old school Nintendo or a Nintendo 64 in your house, sure, your kids can play it. They're gonna get bored of it. It's not online. They're not playing online games. These are we're talking about the games you have to blow into and shove in to make them work. They're not going to get addicted to those things. So if you want to go on, you know, ebay and buy those things, sure, you can have those things in your house. But you know, Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft, Brawl stars, all these ridiculous things are unbelievably addictive. And kids are. Kids want to play that game 24 hours a day, seven days a week. YouTube, of course, tablets, anything that's touch screen, anything where the kid gets a dopamine drip from the touch of a finger, controlling something from the tip of a finger. These are the things that are highly, highly addictive. Can you still have family movie night? Of course. Can you do audiobooks and things like that? Like when I talk about full elimination of screenshots, without a doubt, I end up getting 30 to 50 messages of, oh, is TV okay? Are audiobooks okay? Yes. I'm talking about the addictive stuff. Getting full elimination of screens is unrealistic. You can have TVs in your house, sure. You know, you can do audiobooks, you can do old school games. You know, you can have an Apple Watch. Apple watches are a great way to still communicate with your child and not give them a smartphone, all of those things. But when we're talking about these cognitive distortions that parents tell themselves to keep themselves from having to do the hard thing, to keep themselves from having to be the bad guy, to keep themselves from having to deal with those withdrawal behaviors for one week, two weeks, three weeks, while their brain detoxes from screens. Because that's what it's all about. At the end of the day, the vast majority of parents are keeping video games, iPhones, tablets. They're keeping those things in their house out of fear of their child's reactions. Because they know if they remove those screens, their kids are going to go berserk and they might have to call 91 1. They might break things and things might happen. And that is just further proof of how serious this problem is and how this is truly an addictive drug. There's never been a parent that had to call 911 when they took their kids Legos away. That's never happened. But screens are an addictive drug. So the first thing parents are telling themselves, number one, is if I take screens away, my son is going to lose all his friends. I. In all of my years, in all of my years of doing this, we've successfully helped probably over 500 families remove screens from Their house, Negative screens from their house. I have never once seen any of those kids lose their friends. In fact, it's been the opposite. The kid ends up going outside more. They end up finding like different kinds of talents like sports and outdoors or you know, doing different things. And the child is naturally more regulated, more regulated to have 50, 50 conversations and use their perspective taking skills and social executive functioning skills. So in fact the kids that get their screens removed end up making more friends. So that's a total opposite of that parental fear. So that's a really important thing to talk about. Parents will say things like, oh, if he stops playing Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, what's he going to talk about with his friends? That's all his friends talk about. No, that is not all kids talk about. Kids talk about lots of things that might be the one thing you think they talk about. But no, kids and boys and girls talk about lots of things. They talk about other people, they talk about other events, they talk about the things that are happening at schools, they talk about their teachers, they talk about their homework, they talk about sports. You don't need to know about Fortnite, Roblox and Minecraft to make friends. The second cognitive distortion is that if I remove screens from my child when he turns 18 and he goes to college or he moves out of his house, he's going to overindulge and he's going to be obsessed with screens because I kept them away from him for so long. So that right there is definitely false. What we have seen is that when kids don't have constant access to screens between 0 and 8 18, they are then forced to use their creativity, use their imagination and get involved in varied experiences. So from 0 to 18, when their brain is being molded, they're then being exposed to music and art and exercise and going outside and playing and being with people face to face. So Your kid turns 18 and you send them to college, they now have a brain that is stimulated by sports and exercise and really cool things and interacting with other people. But if you send a kid 18 years old, and yes, they have straight A's and good grades and all that kind of stuff, but the only thing that really stimulates their brain is screens. They have no chance of being successful at college. And then you give that 18 year old a screen for the first time, give him a smartphone for the first time when he goes to college, that phone is not going to tempt him like it would a kid that grew up on a phone. Like the kid who grows up on a phone that becomes their comfort zone. You give a kid a smartphone, a tablet, video games for the first time at 18, their brain is already stimulated by all sorts of different things. They have so many healthy, positive interests, different things that stimulate their brain where they don't need that phone. So parents will literally say so many different things to keep themselves from having to fight that fight. You know, they'll blame Covid and say, oh, because of COVID you know, my son got addicted to screens and I just couldn't get out of it. Yeah, Covid was bad. It was unprecedented. But at the end of the day, all it did was speed things up. Screens were bad before COVID There was still Fortnite, there was still Roblox, there was still Minecraft. All these things were going to happen anyway. Big tech is making too much money off of these kids where it's not Covid's fault, it's money's fault, it's big tech.

[Ginny Urch]

Like, absolutely. I mean, absolutely. Because when I started 1,000 hours outside, it was two.

[Mike McLeod]

Yep.

[Ginny Urch]

So it was seven years before COVID and the statistic was already out there that kids were spending four to seven minutes outside a day on average, and four to seven hours on screens. It was already a problem. It's been a problem for a long time already. Parents love their kids. They love their kids the most. Why would they? I, I don't, I don't. I can't really wrap my head around this lose, lose situation that we're putting our kids in.

[C]

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[Mike McLeod]

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[D]

When it comes to raising kids, there's so much to consider. Things like what do we feed them? When do we feed them? How do they sleep? What does it look like to raise kind kids? How does their nervous system work? How do I keep myself calm? What are my triggers? There's so much that comes into play, and we are distilling all of that information for you at Voices of your Village. Village podcast, where we bring experts in the field of early childhood and education and psychology and across the board so that you don't have to comb the Internet for information. You get to show up and hang out and have shame. Free judgment, free conversations and insights into what it looks like to raise kind, empathetic, emotionally intelligent humans. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I have a master's degree in early childhood education. I'm a mom of two and I am walking this journey right alongside you. You doing this work. Come hang out with me at Voices of your Village and we can dive into real conversations with actionable tips.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, it's. It's very, very scary. And at the end of the day, you know, some parents are willing to admit it and some parents aren't. It's all based on fear. You know, somewhere along the lines, parents had this mindset where all of their parenting, that their kids were their partner in parenting and the kids have to agree with all of their parenting decisions. And we've gotten and we've fallen into this whole. Screens have caused parents to fall into this permissive Parenting hole where we have to over indulge the child to avoid conflict a little bit.

[Ginny Urch]

We'll go deeper there. Screens have caused parents to fall into.

[Mike McLeod]

Permissive parenting because screens created when they're, when they're available in the home, when they're there, that's all the kid is ever going to want to do. And they're going to increase dysregulation. And one of the biggest things that people don't really understand about screens is screens keep the kid in the house. They keep the kid there under constant parent supervision. So all these parents that are just so burnt out by their kids, so burnt out by the behaviors, a lot of it is because you're just around him all the time, he's always there. Kids get to a certain age where they need to be out of your house, they have to be out of your sight, they have to be outside in nature with other adults, with other children. One of the reasons why you're constantly dealing with this dysregulation and you're, you're getting burnt out as the parent by your child is because your kid is just always home. They wake up, they go to school, they come home, they stay home because home is where the screens are. Kids are meant to be out of the house, around other adults to hold them accountable, around other various diverse peers of various backgrounds and ideals and all these things. That's what strengthens the brain and builds mental flexibility, is meeting new people and having these varied relationships. And if you listen to the 24 hour news cycle, you're going to think that the outside world is too dangerous and there's all these predators out there and it's, and it's not safe for kids to play alone. What all the research tells us is all the predators are online now. All the predators are on Roblox, all the predators are on Instagram, all the predators are on TikTok, they're all on there. All those psycho crazy people are on the Internet. That's the unsafe place, not the outside world. The outside world has never been safer for kids in terms of abductions and all that kind of stuff. Kids need to be out. So when your kid is constantly home, constantly dysregulated, constantly yelling, especially our ADHD kids who are conflict seeking. So they get stimulated by two things. Screens and controlling their parents emotions and manipulating their parents emotions and taking advantage of that unconditional love, it's not a character flaw, it's not malicious, it's just simply what stimulates their brain. So if your kid's always home. They're going to come after you for conflict stimulation and you're going to get burnt out and you're going to get to the point where you're going to say, here, just take this screen, just take a screen and leave me alone. I need my alone time. Instead of get outside or we're going.

[Ginny Urch]

To go outside together.

[Mike McLeod]

You got it?

[Ginny Urch]

And that's the thing. It's on your shoulders and you do it. But it also makes your life better too. And I think that's important. If kids had childhoods that were more conducive to being a kid, would there be less need for medication?

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, I think, I think overall, like I'm very overall as an ADHD specialist. I am pro medication because that's what the research tells us. The research tells us that medication is helpful. But now, especially since COVID when parents were able to observe virtual school and their kids were literally stuck in the house all day, there's no reason for us to have an Adderall shortage. There's no way there's that many ADHD kids all of a sudden now as compared to previously. Yet we know that screens create ADHD symptoms. Screens do not cause adhd. Very important to say that ADHD is hereditary or, you know, the result of some sort of brain injury, whatever, but it's mostly hereditary. Screens have not and will never cause adhd. Very important to state that, but they will. They do increase ADHD symptoms, they do increase inattentiveness, they do increase dysregulation. And if your kid does have adhd, screens are going to make their symptoms worse. No doubt about it. The ADHD brain already has so much less dopamine. It's already conflict seeking where if we're giving them screens in the morning before school or giving them screens directly after school before they start homework, you're going to deal with a very, very dysregulated kid. But there's really no reason for us to just all of a sudden have this massive Adderall shortage. You know, big pharma likes making a lot of money and there's no way they want there to be a shortage of Adderall medication. So all of a sudden, if there is an Adderall medication that shows that we're probably over diagnosing, there's many different professionals will give you different opinions on that. There's many different aspects to it. I by no means am an expert on is every single person truly have adhd, whatever it may be, there's different opinions there. I'm Just, you know, stating mine right now. But overall, you know, are we probably over medicating? Are we. Are we over therapizing? Definitely. Are we sending kids to too many different therapies and putting them in talk therapy and putting them in cognitive behavioral therapy when it's not helping at all? In fact, it might be making behaviors worse and it's causing them to get stuck on negative thoughts. You know, I would say about 99% of the parents who reach out to me to learn about Grow now services have already been through several unsuccessful therapies in the past where they've wasted thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. So this whole just over therapizing, instead of just increasing play, increasing outdoor time, increasing time spent outside of the home, that's really what's needed. And, you know, I've had so many parents say to me, you know, he won't sleep. So I have him with a sleep specialist. He eats terrible. So I have him with the nutritionist. I have him in talk therapy, I have him in counseling. I have him in behavioral therapy because he's always dysregulated. And then the question always is, okay, what's his screen time like? Oh, he's always on it. He's always. He's always on. On his tablet or his phone or on YouTube. Well, that's why he's not sleeping. And because he's not sleeping, he's not eating well. And because he's not eating well, that's why he's doing terrible at school also because he's not sleeping. So many times it comes back down to, is your child dysregulated in the real world because their entire life is spent in the virtual world?

[Ginny Urch]

People are making a lot of money off this.

[Mike McLeod]

A lot of money. And who makes money when kids play outside? Nobody. And that's why we never hear about it, because nobody makes money when kids go outside and play.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, I don't. People need to buy my book.

[Mike McLeod]

There you go.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, it's a lot of money. Susan Lynn wrote a book called who's Raising the Kids? Big tech, big business in the lives of children. But it's really interesting how it all is going hand in hand. And to me, that's the difference. That's the difference that maybe started in the 80s 90s is like all of a sudden when the screens got more addictive, then the kids are more disregulated. So big pharma is making money, Big tech is making money. The food is messing with them. They're making money. The businesses are trying to sell solutions of toys and everything is electronic. They're making money.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And the kids are losing.

[Mike McLeod]

It's a mess. It's a mess.

[Ginny Urch]

And it all goes hand in hand. I feel like the more that big tech makes money, the more that big pharma makes money off of, off of our children.

[Mike McLeod]

And that's what it is, is, you know, somewhere along the lines a lot of these massive corporations realized we are going to make our most money off of children. Our most vulnerable population is our children. Those are the people that are easiest to get hooked, easiest to get addicted. And there's a very, you know, just, just look at the CEOs and the leaders of these organizations. Those kids have zero screens. You know, those kids have zero. They go to completely tech free schools because they can obviously afford it. So they go to completely tech free schools. They're in all these different arts and music and all these different programs. They don't get a cell phone until they graduate from college. They never have video games. They never have tablets. What do they know that we don't know? So that's exactly. It is. They're, they're seeing these kids that are so highly addictive. And the sad part is now is most parents are just waving the white flag and saying, I can't win against screenshots. You know, they would rather spend thousands and thousands of dollars on therapy than to just remove the screens. And you're going to see a regulated child. But those one week, two week, three weeks of withdrawal behaviors where it can get really ugly and be really hard, you know, you can persevere through three weeks of behaviors for a lifetime of progress.

[Ginny Urch]

Yes. And it's going to make your life better for everyone. Everyone. Victoria Dunkley has a book called the Reset your Child's Brain. That's where I first started to learn about what you're talking about, Mike, about the dysregulation. Because everyone would have thought, I thought that interactive screens were better. They're learning.

[Mike McLeod]

No.

[Ginny Urch]

You know, that seems better than watching the Sound of Music. That feels lazy. But no. And so she's got a book about a four week reset that could help parents. Let's talk about what's out there, the amazing world that we have. We could frame it in how you set up your summer camps. So talk to us about how you set up your summer camps in a way that will inspire us to set our afternoons and weekends and our summers up in a similar way that is beneficial for us and our kids.

[Mike McLeod]

So obviously I've talked a lot about screens and how they're terrible and addictive to the ADHD brain, to all kids brains, all developing brains because they hardwire the brain towards instant gratification. And when you hardwire the brain towards instant gratification, there's no chance of them doing boring non stimulating tasks which are the essence of all life. It's all real work, all meaningful things are hard to do. You know, whether it's hygienic tasks, daily tasks, homework, you know, all long term goals required delayed gratification and self regulation. And if you have a brain hardwired towards instant gratification, you're not going to be able to do delayed gratification non stimulating tasks. But one of the biggest things about screens is that they are experience killers. That's the biggest thing. So screens keep kids inside, they take up their entire day and they are all kids want to do. Since the rise of screens, we have seen unbelievably alarming statistics of the amount of kids that are going outside, playing face to face and doing things outdoors. That right there is the reason for this youth mental health crisis, period. Human beings are social animals. They were made to be outdoors. They were made to play face to face, especially from birth to 18, period. So there is no other. That's it. Everybody wants to talk about the this and the that and the this and the that. It is the screens that are stopping them from going face to face and playing inside, period. That is the number one thing because kids are not going outside. So the way we run our camp is it is an experience based camp. It is screen free. We take kids to the King Air pressure mall. They do an escape room, we walk around, we learn money management, we learn delayed gratification by going to the the coolest stores first where they want to blow all their money first. We plan ahead, we do future thinking skills. We have them go in groups and do a scavenger hunt around the mall and just make it really fun for them. We go to Valley Forge park, one of the great beautiful parks around here in Pennsylvania and we do all sorts of cornhole and frisbee and spike ball and we throw the football around with kids that have never even touched a football before and they just play all sorts of outdoor games and that is one of the mo. That's probably my personal favorite trip of the week. So we go to a different place every week. Valley Forge park is one of my favorites because myself and all the other counselors there, camp counselors, there's always a time where we just stand back and watch the kids just having a blast together, not a screen in sight. And they are just playing and having so much fun. They're, you know, roughhousing, they're, you know, going at each other, roasting each other. They're being kids and they're having experiences that they need for their brain that no therapist can give them, no teacher can give them, no parent can give them. The only thing that can give it to them is nature and experience and being outside. So that's just a beautiful thing to see. We always go to like a public pool, so we do like a whole swimming day so they get lots of swimming in. We go to a private pool sometimes and we just take them all over. You know, we go to restaurants, they learn how to order from a menu and be able to pay a bill and those sorts of things. It's all about life skills and experiences. So they're not able to just pull their phone out and start playing a game and just, you know, looking at memes and watching YouTube videos. I post videos all the time on my phone where on the bus ride from the clinic to where we're going, we had an Entire group of 10, 11, 12, 13 year olds just singing Backstreet Boys together and just having a blast and just, you know, throwing footballs and had a full on football game together with all these kids that previously said they hated sports, never wanted to play sports. When you open kids up, you know, when you have a screen based childhood, they're killing the experiences needed where all of their talents, all of their skills, all of their interests are just lying dormant inside of them. All these kids that you think are so unathletic and hate sports and would never play a sport, you don't know that because they're always going to choose a screen over something else. Maybe they could be in a play, maybe they can play an instrument, maybe they can be on the chess club, the robotics club, whatever it is. You never find out when screens are introduced into their lives because they're going to choose that screen over everything else.

[Ginny Urch]

Every single time and end up being lying dormant forever.

[Mike McLeod]

Forever. Yeah. And they're never going to learn.

[Ginny Urch]

It's never going to come out.

[Mike McLeod]

You got it?

[Ginny Urch]

It's never going to come out.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah. And all these parents that say, oh, I would love to sign him up for an after school activity, I would love to have him do an intramural sport or do debate club or you know, future leaders club or robotics club or whatever it is. But every time I ask Him. He just says no to everything. He just says no. He doesn't. He doesn't want to do it. It's not your child's choice. It's not your child's choice. Especially when screens are in the house and screens are the other option. If screens are there, they're choosing the screens. Your child does not have a fully developed brain, meaning they can't see into the future the way that you can. They need you to be a parent, not be their best friend. You know what's best for them and their future. They don't. They don't have that part of their brain yet, especially if so much of their life is spent on a screen. So you can see into the future much further than they can. So they're allowed to say no? Sure. But you're also allowed to say, too bad you're doing it.

[Ginny Urch]

Yes.

[Mike McLeod]

And I guarantee you after a couple of weeks, they're going to be really happy. You force them to do it.

[Ginny Urch]

And don't we all need that sometimes we all need a little nudge and push. I do. I'm nervous about stuff I don't want to do. X, Y and Z. You get a little bit of nudge and a push and you're glad. Glad you did it. You're always glad you did it. I love that. What you said was that the adults had fun, too. You know, you're talking about being at summer camp, the counselors had fun. Because I also think there is this lie out there that the best type of parenting is when, like, the parenting is best when your kids are quiet and subdued. No, you know, like, there's that. There's that lie too, that it's like.

[Mike McLeod]

Okay, well, that's because. That's because they're in the house all the time. They're in the house. Get them out of the house and let them scream outside and have a blast on the playground. Their volume is annoying you because they're home too much. And when they're home too much, you stop being the parent and you start being the educational homework secretary. You become hyper aware of what their room looks like and all these other things. You have to get them out of your sight. So much of parent coaching is we need to teach parents to do less, fade back, stop doing things for your kids they can do themselves. And if they're constantly in your house under your supervision, you're at work all day, nine to five, they're at school all day, until whenever, then every single afternoon, evening, every single morning, every single weekend, that kid is just there. They're in your house there. That's going to drive any parent crazy, ADHD or not. But if they have adhd, yeah, they're going to drive you crazy because they're conflict seeking. They're going to come after you, you're going to get burnt out. You have to get them out of the house. It's not only healthy for them to have those experiences, but it's healthy for you to have your private time, your safe space. It's not. Throw a screen at them so you have quiet time. Get them out so they can gain skills and you can have your private time to sit back and relax.

[Ginny Urch]

Mike, I can see why schools bring you in all over the world.

[Mike McLeod]

You got it.

[Ginny Urch]

This is what people need and they're missing it. The executive functioning is so important for every parent, for every health care provider, for every teacher, for every administrator to understand about. I'm so thankful for this.

[Mike McLeod]

I love it.

[Ginny Urch]

Thankful because it is a problem if these huge school districts. I mean, it is a premier school district here in Michigan that is Giving young children 20 minutes of recess. Gone from 30 to 20. This is out of control. We have gone too far. We are not honoring what kids need. And I'm so thankful that you are fighting for children and that you are here to help explain all of this to us. Thank you for being here.

[Mike McLeod]

Recess. I just want to add, recess is by far the most important time for all kids. Recess can never be taken away as a punishment. Especially for our neurodiverse kids. Recess is by far the most important part of their day. You know, the NFL has their whole play 60 campaign of 60 minutes outdoor play. It has to happen, period. And for all you parents out there, on my Instagram, every single day, I share multiple success stories of a parent who eliminated screens, decreased their screens and saw unbelievable progress. And they saved money. They were about to spend a ton of money on evaluations, a ton of money on therapy, a ton of money on all these things. But they eliminated screens. They persevered through those behaviors. They stayed strong. They didn't cave. They didn't just take the controllers away. They took the Xbox, the PlayStation, the Switch. They sold them. They got rid of them. They actually made money on this deal by selling the tech. So they instead of spending thousands of dollars on evals and therapy, they actually made a couple of bucks. So they took all the tech, sold them back to GameStop, sold them on ebay, and they ended up seeing a much more regulated child that wanted to go outside, that made more Friends that got more involved in their community and became more prepared for college and life. And that's what Grow now does. I share those success stories and what A Thousand Hours Outside does is every single day you guys share videos of or and pictures of the families that are using your amazing app. One of the best apps on the planet of families tracking the amount of hours spent outside. And you watch videos of those kids. It is pure unfiltered joy. Whether they're in the forest, in the backyard, at a park, at the beach. You are watching kids be kids. You are watching them play. And play is the work of childhood. We are watching those kids do exactly what they are supposed to do. And all those parents that are dedicating themselves to the thousand hours outside mission and making sure they get a thousand hours outside, those are the kids that are not going to need the failure to launch program. Those are the kids that are going to be ready for life and all of the things that life throws at them.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow, Mike, I want to read two of these because people can make sure that they're following along. I just got them from your just last night on your Instagram. Here's one of the success stories. Our 8 year old with ADHD cannot handle any screen time other than TV time. He becomes so dis regulated and turns into a completely different child. Even just five minutes on a smartphone and he completely unravels. We will never go back. He spends his free time playing outside and creating next one. My 13 year old does very well without screens. We remove them after loss of hobbies and constant dysregulation. It's been wonderful for the past year and the only thing she's missing socially is the constant drama and bullying that seems 10 times worse over phones and devices than it is in person. Mike, you are offering so much hope.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, and I save all of those. So like, you know on your profile where you can like save a story on those little circles. Yeah, I have like five of them on screen time alone of parents just sharing their success stories. Like, Mike, I did it. It was hard. It was really, really hard. I'm never gonna say it's easy. It was really hard. My kid went nuts. He said unforgivable things to me that I would never repeat out loud. And you know, he went nuts, she went nuts. It was hard. But we persevered. We stayed strong. And thank goodness we did because my child now I can still communicate with them. I got them a smartwatch where I can still communicate them and make sure they're safe. At school and make sure they're safe. I put a little Apple air tag in his backpack or some, some parents even are putting Apple air tags in their kids shoes. They're implanting, implanting them in the shoes. Do whatever you got to do. But it doesn't have to be a smartphone. Video games have no benefit. Can we be like, come on video. Like all these parents that are like, oh, he's playing Minecraft, he's building, he's gaining executive functioning skills. No, stop it. Like, come on. There is nothing social about video games. Playing video games online with people does not improve your social skills. And playing video games and building things does not strengthen your executive functioning period. So all you parents out there, if you need some support, you know, reach out to me, I'll be happy to help. Look at all those successful stories. It's not easy to do because big tech has a stranglehold on schools. And another thing about these school laptops, this is what parents need to start to do. So I should have mentioned this earlier, but if you're having trouble with your child's school laptop, what you're going to want to do, if nothing else works and you're just stuck with a laptop, when your kid comes home from school, you have a designated hour for them to do homework. Let's say from 4pm to 5pm that's their homework hour. Once 5pm hits, that laptop is in your possession, the parents possession until the very next morning. I don't care if they say, mom, I still have so much to do. Mom, I have to study. Mom, I have all of this. No, no kid should be doing more than an hour of homework, period. And you stay consistent with that. They're going to start to get more and more productive during that hour. Because we all know during that hour they're sneaking in YouTube time, they're sneaking in video games or sneaking in all of those things. Stay consistent with that hour, give them an hour to get things done and eventually they're going to learn to be very productive during that hour. But you take that school laptop away and you don't give it back until the morning.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow, Mike, I think that's actually incredible advice. You know what? And I tell you what, and we don't do this because we homeschool. But I'm like, listen, even if my kids grades suffered, I wouldn't care. Yeah, one hour, that's it. Who cares about their grades? Peter Gray says don't even look at their report card. And everyone's like, I'm like, whatever. Grades. I mean, that's not what life is about. It's not about your grades.

[Mike McLeod]

It's not an indicator of future success. It isn't. You know, they want you. They want you to think it is so you fully invest in, you know, Baby Einstein and Kumon and all those things. But it isn't. It is not an indicator of future success.

[Ginny Urch]

Executive functioning is which comes from experiences. Mike, this is always. I mean, what an honor. I love having you on. I know. I'm just. I get so many messages about. Has a long tail effect. People are still listening. It is really a blessing to this whole audience. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for being here.

[Mike McLeod]

Always a privilege to chat with you. I. I think we should do it about 10, 15 more times.

[Ginny Urch]

Let's keep it up.

[Mike McLeod]

And thank you. Thank you for all you're doing with A Thousand Hours outside. Anyone who listened to this episode and enjoyed it, send me a DM on Instagram, go on my website, email me, learn more about grow Now. I would love to get to know you all individually. But just thank you to the A Thousand Hours outside mission and the message that you guys share to the masses because it needs to be heard. You know, nature and outdoor play is the answer to your problems.

[Ginny Urch]

What a good ending.

[Mike McLeod]

Love it.