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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 419: The Secret Language of Children | Dr. Tina Payne Bryson and Georgie Wisen-Vincent, The Way of Play
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- [00:01]
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- [01:22]
Ginny Urch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have some phenomenal, phenomenal guests today. 2. Two who work together who met each other randomly in the store years back. Dr. Tina Payne Bryson and Georgie Wissen Vincent. Welcome to you both.
- [01:42]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Thank you so much.
- [01:43]
Ginny Urch
Here, I got this book in the mail. It's called the Way of Play. Oh, it's so important. We need all of these reminders that play is such a valuable use of our time. Using little moments of big connection to raise calm and confident kids. This is what we want. And as I was reading it, I realized that. Dr. Tina, you wrote the Whole Brain Child.
- [02:06]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I did. With Dan Siegel. Yeah.
- [02:08]
Ginny Urch
So I actually did not know about that prior to getting this book. It's wild. There are not that many books that everybody knows about, but that's one of them.
- [02:19]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. And we used to be an illustrator, actually, in this book. That's the illustrator and whole brainchild and no drama, discipline and all the. All the four books I wrote with Dan. But the illustrator actually created the illustration of this book to be a little Bit different. More whimsical, more watercolor, like, more playful. So that. That might have been a little bit of a. Oh, yeah. That kind of seems like whole brain. Like, there was a familiarity there of.
- [02:42]
Ginny Urch
All the things that you could be interested in life, children. And play is just a really pretty specific one. So if you could give. We'll start with Georgie, like a. A quick synopsis of how did you end up. I mean, the way of play. What a book. How did you end up in this spot?
- [02:58]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Gosh. Long story short, as you mentioned, I happened to meet Tina by accident, but admired her work. And I had a baby of my own at the time when I discovered the whole brain child, I was deep into understanding the science as a therapist. So I was working with kids and families for a long time. My training is in play therapy, which some people know about, other people don't know so much about. But it's a way of reaching children through this other language when they. They can't necessarily. They're not old enough or their brains aren't working yet in that way where we can use verbal language to reach them. In therapy, we can play with them. And play can tell us so much about what they're trying to learn, the skills that they're trying to build, the worlds that they're creating when they're inside or outside in their play, and how much they want their parents to be part of that process. So I met Tina by accident. We started working together. Together, we created a whole play therapy team at the center for Connection, the group practice that she started in Pasadena, Californ. And I said to Tina, like, parents just don't know how to do this amazing set of skills that would help them so much in their, you know, everyday lives with their kids. And they have so much to gain from it. And Tina was already like, of course I know how to play. I have three boys of my own. We got to talking about it, and she started adding in all the exciting science behind how the playful brain helps kids to grow and develop all of their cognitive, social, emotional skills. And I just think it's all rolled into such a beautiful, easy to learn book that parents can just pick up and start running with. But Tina has her own take on why we wrote the book and how important it is. So I'll let Tina speak to it too.
- [04:39]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Well, that was beautiful, Jordi. Even really educated, intentional parents who know that play is important. And of course, free, outside play is crucial. Kids need more of it. But there really weren't very many books about how to do dyadic play, how to play with a child. Right. But even well intentioned, educated parents would tell us all the time, like, okay, so once I get on the floor or then what, what do I do? I don't know what to do. Or when I play, my kid tells me I'm doing it wrong, or I feel like I'm intruding on what they're doing, or I find it so boring that I can't keep, like, I don't want to do it. I can't slam super guys together one more second or I'm going to die, you know? So really this book was like, how do we take small moments? It doesn't have to be hours. And we've got seven strategies in the book that tell parents what to do in play. That follows your child's lead, that builds the relationship, builds your child's skill, but most importantly, builds just delight for both parent and child.
- [05:38]
Ginny Urch
I think we're in this day and age when there's so many things that you can enroll your child in that are super worthwhile and very fun. And they have a lot of concerts at the end and you get to watch your child kick the goal. And it's really exciting. So one of the things that you combat in this book is the idea that play is frivolous. So we may be educated and we may be intentional, but it's really easy to forget that play is something that kids need. And one of the things that you wrote in this book, the Way of Play, a book about play. Seriously, children do that naturally. And I've got bigger fish to fry as a parent. Many parents think play is best used as a temporary distraction. It's just something we do to pass the time. But you're saying play is a kid's primary language. Just give us that reminder, kids, why play is not frivolous.
- [06:26]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Yeah, I think that kids just, you know, we think that they just jump into things. You know, they just, they gravitate toward the things that they like. And some parents even tell me it's really funny, they say I don't need to play with them. Right. Like, play is something that just develops without any interference with, with me or anybody else. You know, I have, I had other kids, so they just play together. Why do I need to be involved in it? Like, I just keep myself out of that equation and get other important things done that need to get done. And I think structured play ends up being one of those things that parents start to feel like, is my kid going to be successful in life if I don't enroll them in the Mommy and me classes and the baseball practice and the violin lessons and all of those things. We want kids to have a healthy balance of all of those things. But one of the two types of play that are getting kind of forgotten about or left out of the mix more often than not is the free play that you just spoke to Ginny, which is let them have at it. You know, especially if we're trying to get them off their devices, there's nothing better than sending them out and letting them get dirty and letting, letting them have more freedom in their play. But then there's also the times when we join with them because our kids are actually wired to want us to play with them at least some of the time. It's the reason why your 3 year old comes up to you with like the most random thing they've found in the house and they're like, look, Mommy or daddy?
- [07:53]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Daddy.
- [07:53]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
You got to see this. That's coming from their brain development from the bottom up. Really. The way that exploring their environments through their bodies and taking in all this sensory input. And then the brain is doing amazing things, sending signals to try and wire everything up from the body all the way up to the very top parts of the brain that do their best thinking and planning and imagining and trying to become what they're becoming as they grow up. So I think we need all three types of play but in the right balance. Yeah. And the book that we've written helps you do the parent child play part, which was so important for wiring up the brain in the way that I just described.
- [08:34]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Play seems frivolous because it seems like it's just a way to pass time. They're occupying themselves. But actually play is their first language. And when we. I'm going to get real brainy for a second. Really the way that the brain. So everything we learn is based on the foundations of how we play when we're kids. And so I can't say this enough. Play is a protective factor. There's a bunch of science that shows that kids like if you go interview people in. And this is getting dark real quick here, but if you go interview people on death row, there was a study that was done in Texas. They, the Dr. Stuart Brown went and interviewed every person on death row in the state of Texas. And you know, it's Texas, so there's a lot of them. What they found was two things in common among every single criminal. One was severe childhood abuse and the other was very little Play in childhood, play is a protective factor. But beyond that, let's get really brainy for a second. When we. I often think about like Ross and Rachel and Chandler trying to get the couch up the stairs. The pivot episode on Friends. On Friends. Yeah, yeah, I know I should have say that I should just who these friends of mine are that I'm just mentioning. Like, everyone would know them. You know, the way we manipulate objects in space. Like, I've always got so much crap in my car and I'm trying to fit more crap in my car. Like, the way I learned how to like manipulate objects in space was when I was a little, tiny, tiny little person with the, the little canister and the shapes, trying to get them in the holes. Like, this is how we learn how to move our bodies in space, how to perceive information. And I'm going to get even a little gross here. Don't do this. This is not a recommendation. But if you remove the cortex of a rat. Okay, no one do this at home. And why would anyone but some researchers did this? The cortex is the higher, highest part of our brain where we have problem solving and the ability to regulate ourselves. And all of these sort of high, high fun kinds of things that we talk about in the whole brain child is the upstairs brain. If you remove the cortex of a rat and a rat is a mammal or rodent, but still in that kind of category, they nurse their young, you know, whatever. What happens is they continue to play. What that tells us is that play and the need to play for young mammals is a primitive survival need. So. Right. So it's not. It's not like, oh, how wonderful if we can do trigonometry or how wonderful if we can just have some fun. This is primary to how we learn to regulate our emotions, to move our bodies in space, to language things. And then as the brain takes turns during development in the first 12 years, taking turns oscillating between left brain and right brain growth spurts. Play is helping integrate and build each of those. So logic and putting things in order and all the things that kids do. Kids order their toys or they have to do that problem solving. And then there's like emotion and there's more body movement and all these things that the right hemisphere does. So all of these come together as the brain is developing. So it's not frivolous at all. It is survival, basic need as a mammal.
- [11:37]
Ginny Urch
The sentence it says, lack of play stunts a child's growth.
- [11:41]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [11:41]
Ginny Urch
Which is a big sentence.
- [11:43]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Not frivolous.
- [11:44]
Ginny Urch
It's not frivolous.
- [11:45]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Right.
- [11:45]
Ginny Urch
And I think as a parent, that's a really important sentence to know that the lack of it stunts the child's growth. What are some of the ramifications that are like not quite to the serial killer on death row?
- [11:56]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I know, I got really dark there.
- [11:58]
Ginny Urch
And like in between. So when we say it stunts their growth, what are some things that can happen when we're not leaving time and space for play?
- [12:06]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Well, one of the things we know is we look at the outcomes of play, like better language facility, better ability to navigate social situations. So higher social and emotional intelligence, better cognitive capacity, more flexibility cognitively, emotionally, behaviorally. So when we look at all of the benefits of play, if you don't get play, you don't thrive in those areas. Really talking about every aspect of development and functioning can be restricted if kids don't have enough time to play. And that would be free play, but it would also be dyadic play.
- [12:39]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Yeah. And I would add to that kind of pointing to some of the research by Allison Gopnik. She's taught, she's done experiments where she's put kids in a room and given them colored blocks. And they have to put these blocks together in a certain pattern in a certain amount of time. Really speedy. And they test out how many different combinations to get the block on top to light up. Does it take kids to actually get there? And then they ask adults to come into the lab and they give adults the same problems. And what happens is when our kids are really little, they can solve these problems as fast as like some of our smartest scientists would come up with many different combinations. We're talking about astronomically greater mental and emotional. You have to be able to control your emotions to be able to think through difficult problems. Right. And come up with as many creative solutions as you possibly can. So little kids can do this way faster than adults can. But what happens when we start to constrain kids choices in a day? We ask them to sit for long periods of time. We ask them to stop playing. And this is kind of like social trends right now. Right.
- [13:51]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
We over schedule them.
- [13:52]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
We schedule them into too many activities and stuff where the adults are kind of prescribing what they're supposed to do and how. Then it's sort of like the rigid thinkers now creating more rigid thinkers in some ways. Not that all adults are that way. But what happens is we lose some of our creativity as we grow. And we're going to need a next generation of more creative people in Order to solve the complexity of problems as we move into the next few decades and beyond. So I want the most creative kids we possibly can with lots and lots of play to fuel that.
- [14:26]
Ginny Urch
So it's a good reminder. Lack of play stunts a child's growth. I'm going to say an embarrassing thing. I've never heard of Dyadic. Did I say that?
- [14:35]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Yes.
- [14:35]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I was using professional jargon and I should. So diet.
- [14:38]
Ginny Urch
No, no, it's good.
- [14:39]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
And I like to know Dyad is two people, so. So you and your partner can have Dyadic play too. Yeah, Diet two people.
- [14:48]
Ginny Urch
Okay. So in this case, and this is a really unique book because it's really focusing on the parent and the child, all sorts of cartoons, all sorts of specific examples that are really great because it, it's a modeling. I think a lot of times with parenting you don't have the verbiage. And so I love books that give you that verbiage to help you work through these different situations. So you go through these seven strategies about different ways that you can interact with your kids. So I thought we could talk about a few of them. They're all great, just fantastic different ways that you can interact with your kids in a playful way. But one of the things that you're talking about are the mirror neurons. So that's something newer that I hadn't heard of until the past year to mirror neurons. And that in this type of play kids can really learn a lot of empathy. And you talk about employing the BFVs, body, face, voice. So I thought this is a great one. Can we kick it off here?
- [15:39]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Yeah. Tina, do you want to take about the mirror neurons and then I can talk about the BFVS a little bit?
- [15:45]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah, the mirror neurons are actually fascinating. Back in the 90s there were these researchers in it in Parma, Italy. They had measurements on these chimps that had measured ways to measure individual neurons firing for different tasks. So the chimps would eat something and they would be like. And I'm going to make up names, I don't know what the names of the specific neurons, like they number them. So it's like N47 or whatever. So these neurons would fire so they would knew they were active when the chimp was eating. Well, in an accident the researcher got hungry and reached for something and started to eat and the chimps neurons fired. Fired as if the chimp was eating. So basically it was a really interesting discovery. And then they were discovered that it was discovered later. And UCLA is a big part of this too. Looking at how humans have neurons that have these mirroring properties, and some of them are in the motor strip of the brain. Researchers, as always, are fighting over, what does that mean? Can we jump to that and say that means that's our empathy center or whatever? So there's a lot of controversy. We do know that people who have autism, their mirror neuron system does look different than a neurotypical brain mirror neuron center. But basically, here's the idea. We do feel confident in saying that we have brains that mirror each other's states. We are held captive to one another's states, and it's not just even visual input. When we are reading or we hear something, it can activate our mirror neuron system as well. So basically, the idea that we mirror each other's states, and it's a way for us to be in connection with each other, to feel with, to join with, and to really understand other behavior and the meaning and intention behind it, it has to be an intentional action. So if I just start waving my arms, your mirror neurons aren't firing. Unless we were doing, like a dance thing and you knew what those steps were. But if I go to lift my drink to take a drink, your mirror neurons are firing. So it's. It's movements that are intentional and that connect us with each other.
- [17:41]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Yeah. So building on that, that understanding, that research that we know, mirroring is so powerful in our relationships, in our relationships with our kids. Have you ever noticed that your kids tend to, like, come to you when they're feeling emotional about something? And the way to kind of best deal with those emotions, to figure out what it is that they're feeling and why they're feeling that way. Sometimes they can't even explain it. It's coming from the bottom up, which means it's below their level of awareness. You're connecting with them by making, like, a face that sort of matches what their face looks like when they're feeling that way. Or maybe your vocal changes because you're kind of slowing things down and they're feeling sad. They might even be crying a little bit, something like that. To be a successful parent, especially when our kids are having emotions, we have to be good at mirroring. But we don't want to mirror too much because kids will feel like, I don't know, we're a little too close to the bone or something like that. Right. If I'm really mad and you're like, yeah, you're so mad that it sort of feels like we're playing at them rather than being with them. So we're thinking about showing up for our kids and parenting through the mirroring that we do around their emotions can also work when we're playing with them. And actually play is a time where kids can be, they're having fun, they're calmer than usual, they're more energized, they're not really thinking about what they're playing and why. So we can really tap into this non verbal element of boosting their ability to use parts of the brain that would help them understand emotions. And we do that just by mimicking some aspect of what they're doing in their play. So I just gave you the big emotional reason why we do this. The basic reason why we do it is because it makes us better players with our kids. This is the number one strategy that kids turn around to me and their parents and they say, wow, you're really good at this. Like, you're not getting it wrong this time. You're really getting it right. I don't know what you're doing different. They can't tell because it's more of a subconscious thing, the mirroring that we do. But if you just mirror one element of what your kid is doing with your body, your face or your voice. So let's say they're jumping on the trampoline, or they're bouncing their bunny rabbit over to you on the top of a table or something like that, or they're deciding to play peekaboo or whatever it might be. All you have to do is capture one thing with your body, your face or your voice. Don't do all three because they might feel like you're copying them. And that's how siblings torture each other, you know, like. Like we don't like to be copied exactly what we're doing. So if they're bouncing on the trampoline, you're just saying, boing, boing, boing, if you've got a little kid or wow, you really know how to jump high today, that kind of thing. So you're really just capturing one little thing. And what that does is it sends the message to your child's brain, you get me? You understand how important this is to me right now. You feel it on a felt level, not just, oh, you're bouncing on the trampoline, right, which is just using our words. There's something that really resonates with our kids. And there's research that shows if you mirror your kids just for a couple of minutes, that they're more likely to help an experimenter who's dropped a jar of pencils off of a table, they help clean up. That doesn't mean they're going to clean up all their toys after you're done playing with them and mirroring them for two minutes. But in that research it showed that it does switch on some neurons. Whether it's the mirror neurons or something is activated in your child that makes them want to be more cooperative to be they they really feel the connection with with parents. So whether you're trying to just connect with your kid for a couple of minutes, whether you're trying to make an afternoon go more smoothly, whether you're trying to, you know, enlist them to help out, you know, whatever. We can't promise a perfect child, but maybe play can start to fine tune, you know, those parts of your relationship where you'd really like to to gain their cooperation, join in, do more together, feel better together, and build empathy in the process.
- [21:44]
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- [23:09]
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- [24:37]
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- [25:00]
Ginny Urch
It reminds me what you said at the beginning, Dr. Tina, when you were like, I don't want to play for one more minute, you know, or I don't know how to play. I don't remember how to play like you were talking about Georgie. It's like, these kids are brilliant. They're like at this brilliance level with their creativity. And you come in as a parent, you haven't done it in 20 years and you're like, I don't know what to do with this Barbie or this teddy bear. For the heady parents, right? For the ones that are like, you know, they're not quite there yet. They're educated, they're well intentioned. The words that you were using at the beginning, this, it gives you something to grab onto, like, like a goal it makes it so that instead of just sitting there, like, I don't. I don't know what to do. It gives you a target.
- [25:40]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [25:40]
Ginny Urch
And so I just think it's a wonderful book because it is important that we're. We have this time with our kids, and we're connecting in that way.
- [25:47]
Jack in the Box Representative
Game.
- [25:47]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I think, too, like, sometimes we are so tired. Like, most of the time, we're so tired. Aren't you? I mean, you're just tired. And so to sit about, like, to think about, okay, now I have to be the pirate, and now I have to use the pirate voice. Like, sometimes we're tired, and we don't want. We don't feel like we have that capacity in that moment. Plus, two other kids are wanting to play something else. Right. So I think what I love about that strategy, you don't really have to think. You don't have to be creative. You really just are. Like, they, like, make a face and you go with them. Right. It's like. Like, it's the tire. It's a good, tired thing that can be done in, like, two seconds.
- [26:24]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Yeah. It's also nice to know the science behind it. But in. In that moment, maybe, as Tina's saying, like, mirroring is just letting us get through getting. Getting us through it in a way where we don't have to pull from our, you know, our prefrontal cortex quite so much. We can let ourselves do naturally what we know how to do with our kids, which is to mirror them and their. Their state when they're in play and we don't have to think about it that hard. But I love the way you put it, Ginny. It just gives you a little bit of a target of where to go instead of sitting there playing, doing the guesswork of, what am I supposed to do here?
- [26:59]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, it's a little follow the leader. Ish. And what a cool thing. We're following the lead of the child. One of the things you wrote is. And this is in a different section, but it was still also about empathy. You know, you're talking about play. It's one of the most advanced methods we have to practice flexing the empathy muscle. The world is a complicated place, and as children grow up, we need to help them learn to negotiate it in all its complexity. That means teaching them to move beyond oversimplification and egocentrism. So they're learning empathy through this play. It's really important. And one of the sentences in this section said, when kids can't talk about it, so certain Things that are going on, they usually can and do play about it. So it's another reminder. You could be learning different things about your kids. If you're playing with them and you're really watching in this mirror neuron type of way, make yourself a mirror. So that was one of the strategies. There's a whole lot more in here. Lots of cartoons, lots of specifics. One of the things that you talk about in this book, the way of play, is about grit and resilience. And I think that in this day and age, we need a lot of grit and resilience. So you wrote, in order to grow and become emotionally strong, kids need to struggle. This makes me think about, as my husband's grandma grew up in this neighborhood where someone had 17 kids. Kids, and they would file into the beds. It was like, you didn't have your own bed. It was like, whoever got in first, you just kind of filed in. So in a home with 17 kids, you cannot make sure that everyone is, like, not getting hurt. But today we can really parent in a way. I think that cocoons our kids pretty well. Pretty well, definitely. Compared to different situations, maybe at different other times, and maybe someone listening has 17 kids. So, I mean, people still do have these large families, but it's one of those situations where things are different. We have more comfortable homes, we have screens. We can shield ourselves and our kids. We can shield our kids from a lot of different types of things. You're talking about scaffolding and stretching. So can you talk about really, what does that look like? I mean, in terms of giving our kids opportunities where they can be stretched.
- [29:07]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Georgie, I would love if you would kind of give a specific of what that could look like in play. But I'd love to say first, kind of a big idea that the brain is. Okay, let me say it this way. The parts of the brain that are particularly sort of the foundation for resilience would primarily be the prefrontal cortex, right. Which allows us to regulate our emotions, regulate our bodies, make sound decisions, have insight, have empathy, all of these things. And that part of the brain doesn't finish developing till the mid to late 20s. Once it's developed, like as it's developing, we want it integrated with the lower structures so that we don't flip our lids like we talk about in the upstairs, downstairs brain, in the whole brainchild. So resilience, we think about sort of the foundation of resilience primarily coming from the prefrontal cortex. We could spend five episodes just talking about this idea. But I'll say quickly that one of the best things, one of the most important things for developing this part of the brain is secure attachment relationships. And that's a whole other episode. And I wrote a book called the Power of Showing up with Dan, where we really get in Dan Siegel, where we really get into this. But one of the big pieces of developing secure our children, developing secure attachment with us is mutual delight. So when we join with our kids in play, and we're enjoying it, too. So if you're playing and you're not enjoying it and your kid perceives it, switch it up, do something else. But mutual delight is a huge part of building secure attachment. So that actually just delighting in your child builds secure attachment, which builds the prefrontal cortex, which builds resilience. Okay? So that's one thing. The other thing I would say is that the brain is a huge muscle in a way. Not. Not literally, but like muscles. When we have repeated experiences, just like when I do reps and I lift weights, my muscles get stronger. That happens from little micro tears and adversity that my muscles are facing as I'm lifting those weights, and it makes them stronger. The repeated experiences we give our kids build their brain. So if we want our children to have grit and resilience, they have to have repeated practice and experience dealing with difficult moments, dealing with difficult situations, dealing with conflict, dealing with big, uncomfortable emotions. And that actually plays into a whole talk that we could do about discipline, too, because so much of the time when our children are falling apart and they're having adversity, they're having a meltdown, whatever, we rush in and we try and fix it, and we try and solve it, and we want them to feel better, and we're, you know, or we're distracting them as opposed to just saying, I'm right here with you while you're feeling this and allowing them to feel the uncomfortable experience so they come out of it the other side going, okay. I felt that. I felt like that was really unfair, the way you did that with my brother, but not with me. That feels really unfair, and I'm really mad, and I'm really upset. And my parent says to me, I'm right here with you while you're feeling it. It and not giving in and saying, fine, you can have what your brother has. Then the kid comes out on the other side of that of like, okay, my mom trusts that I could handle those big feelings, and I actually am okay, even though I felt that, and that was miserable. I'm okay now. So all of these things play together. But what happens in a specific strategy in place, scaffold and stretch is we give kids opportunities to step outside what is comfortable, to step outside what they've always done to build and stretch their capacity to tolerate or expand their window of tolerance. That's a Dan Siegel phrase, expand their window of tolerance for what's uncomfortable, for what they're not good at, for what they don't know how to do, what feels unknown, et cetera. So, Georgie, can you talk about, like, what that could look like? How do we help our kids? And by the way, scaffolding are the. The. It's based on something called the Zone of proximal Development by lev Vygotsky. And Dr. Vygotsky was really saying, like, the way we grow is in the area. Like, if something's too hard and too overwhelming, we shut down or we explode. But if we're not challenged at all, we don't grow. So it's in this kind of, like, area of the zone of proximal development. It's close to where we are in development, but it's a little bit beyond. And so we can do that through play. Georgie, what does that look like in play, though?
- [33:09]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Yeah. Thank you, Tina. That was a beautiful setup. I feel like sometimes I check out a little bit because I'm listening to Tina explain it again. And though I've heard it many times, I always feel like, oh, my gosh, I wish I could just memorize it the way that she knows it in her brain.
- [33:23]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Reps. Lots of reps.
- [33:24]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Yes, exactly. And that's really what building resilience is all about. We want to give our kids a lot of reps, developing skills in a relatively safe situation. So what I want parents to consider is that play could be the best place for kids to practice resilience. I'm going to say that in a slightly different way. You know, we wouldn't send our kids to play a big baseball or football game. We wouldn't send them into the arena without having a lot of days of practice before they go into the big game. Right. So what happens when kids don't. This goes back to your question, Ginny, of what happens when kids don't get enough opportunities to explore what they want to do and play well. They lose chances to build repetition around. Around solving problems and dealing with challenges when the stakes are low enough that they're not going to, you know, get a bad grade or fail school or something like that. Like, nothing really, really bad is going to happen to them in Play. But they also get practice balancing the emotion regulation of what it takes to be able to tether their emotions to their executive functioning. And that's a whole. Again, that's a whole nother set of explanations. But the executive functions of what is the challenge? How do I break down the steps? What's involved in solving this problem? And can I physically do it? Can I actually carry it out with my motor skills and everything? So where we see with younger kids, although this applies to kids of all ages, but especially with our younger kids or like our elementary school age kids, is that they can really focus in on building resilience. If I have a kid that, that's anxious or doesn't like taking risks, that would be good for them, healthy for them, like going over to a friend's house and playing on a play date for a couple of hours or something like that. If I have a kid who's a little bit scared to take risks that we would associate with good, healthy, positive development for them, that I want them to practice building resilience and play. One of the ways that we can do that is by scaffolding and stretching their abilities while they play. So, for example, my kid loved building long trails of dominoes throughout the house when he was about 7, about 7, 8 years old. But it would reach a point where he'd put out so many that it becomes even more pressured to add each and every domino because if he makes one little wrong move, the whole thing is going to fall down, right? And you think about any, any play that, that involves, like, I gotta get it right, let's say, otherwise there's gonna be some, you know, there's gonna be like some mishap over a mistake or something. So play. And the failures that happen in play are a really great way for kids to build up their tolerance if we can help be their assistant in that zone of proximal development. So I want my kid to be teetering on the edge of, can I manage this? Can I balance, balance my, my worry that it's not going to work out, my stress over getting it just right, my parent being there to help me, like when I need assistance to stay in my zone of proximal development. So I'd be there with my kid and he'd be like, oh my gosh, like, I've done, you know, 50 dominoes. If I put the next one on, like, the whole thing could fall, mom, what am I going to do? And I'm sort of like, all right, let's think about this together. You Stand on that side of the dominoes, and I'll be on this side of the lane, you know. And he was like, oh, I've got it, I've got it. Like, you put your hand next to the domino, don't tip it, but you put your hand right there. Don't touch it, but put your hand right there. And then I'll stand on this side and I'll line it up right with your hand. And I think that's going to make the line straighter or whatever, and maybe he gets the next 10 dominoes. He's like, it's good. I'm ready to knock it over, right? So I just came in a little bit. It wasn't that I took over and told him, no, I think you should do it this, that, or the other way. It was, I'm here for you. Just like Tina said, I'm here to help you. I can give you just the right amount of help or even just the emotional support that you need without taking over. And when kids get it themselves, when they actually, like, get, it's not that we're concerned about the product of what they create in their play. They don't have to paint like Picasso and have like a finished masterpiece piece or something. It's the process of how they get there. So if I'm there assisting in the process, they not only have an experience of, I did it. I'm really great. I built my confidence. I practiced being emotionally regulated while I was using my executive function skills, which is a major goal that we have for our kids. Right. We want them to be able to stay calm under pressure and solve problems at the same time. Right. But they also see me as somebody that they can rely on, on the parent as somebody that they can rely on when it gets a little bit tough. And don't we all want our kids to go? My parents not just there for me when I play, my parents there for me when my friend said something mean to me at school, or I don't know how to talk to my teacher about the fact that I didn't get all my homework done or whatever it might be. So a lot of the strategies that we talk about in the way of play also line up with everyday challenges where kids are going to need to pull that resilience billions out and be able to face real struggles in real life. And they'll already have sort of a bank built up around it that they can draw from. And we call this the resilient snowball, that if they can build it up in Little, you know, little doses in their play that all of that gathers snow on their snowball of grit or resilience. So it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. To really help them tackle the tougher stuff in real life, it's really important to make, make use of every little opportunity that we have. And if you miss some fine, like, you know, whatever. I didn't help him with his dominoes and the whole thing fell down that time. But if you can, that's why we just say it just takes a couple of minutes of you being there. But you get so much out of those couple of minutes, especially when you have the way of play behind you.
- [39:23]
Ginny Urch
Nature is like to me, the ultimate scaffolder and stretcher for sure. We've been outside with our kids for 13 years, a thousand hours. So that we started when our kids were three and under and I was carrying all of them and they were crying. And the nature just provides like this, this spot where you are uncomfortable, there's bugs, it's itchy, you're sitting in the grass, it's cold, your nose is running, it's wet. And over time, it's been really interesting for me to see a 13 year span of what happens and what, what ended up happening. I had no idea, you know, I had no idea. We got these little kids, we're trying to get outside more just so that I don't lose my mind. But you know, by the time they're 7, 8 years old, they're jumping off into Lake Superior, off of the rocks and we're, we're in Michigan, so we got all the Great Lakes around her. You know, they're doing these pretty fantastic things and they have built that, that's the snowball. Our 11 year old went rappelling in Moab, Utah over this cliff. And I mean, you know, no issues. And you're kind of like, well, how does that happen? Well, it happens that little by little the grit and resilience that they're growing as they stretch. And we help them with stretching and scaffolding. I loved this sentence and kind of what you were just talking about, Georgie. This says possibly one of the most amazing skills your child will ever gain is the ability to hold feelings that threaten to topple their composure while maintaining their focus and resolving a difficult issue in front of them. I was like, I'm not sure I have that.
- [40:56]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
You know what, our brains are still developing too. You do have that? Absolutely. Well. And you know, I think that one of my favorite strategies in the book fits right in with that, and that's the bring emotions to life strategy. And it's just super simple.
- [41:11]
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- [41:42]
G
When it comes to raising kids, there's so much to consider. Things like, what do we feed them? When do we feed them? How do they sleep? What does it look like to raise kind kids? How does their nervous system work? How do I keep myself calm? What are my triggers? There's so much that comes into play, and we are distilling all of that information for you at Voices of your Village podcast, where we bring experts in the field of early childhood and education and psychology and across the board so that you don't have to comb the Internet for information. You get to show up and hang out and have shame. Free judgment, free conversations and insights into what it looks like to raise kind, empathetic, emotionally intelligent humans. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I have a master's degree in early childhood education. I'm a mom of two, and I am walking this journey right alongside you doing. Doing this work. Come hang out with me at Voices of your village and we can dive into real conversations with actionable tips.
- [42:42]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
So my boys, one in particular, love to tie knots on things and have use ropes in play. So I tried not to freak out and think, like, what does this mean? Is he gonna, like, you know, is this scary? Like, practicing to be a kidnapper? I don't know. But he would tie a knot on a doorknob, and then he would tie a knot on the top of a castle or a ship or something, you know, and he would hand me action figures. He loved super guys, and I could easily. He'd be like, mom, get this guy. Here's this guy. He's got to get down to the ship, right? So I'm tired, you know, and I could easily just put the guy on there and be like, and that's great. I'm following his lead. I'm using my voice, you know, whatever. But it's also an opportunity for me to be like, I'm so scared.
- [43:22]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
I don't know.
- [43:23]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I've never done it before. How do I get down there, I don't know if I can do it right. So all I'm doing is introducing emotions to the character of the situation. And what's amazing in that moment is my 4 year old will say, I'll send a guy to get you. You can do it. Come on, there's a guy's waiting down here for you too, right? So he comes up with a solution that is relational, right? And all about like, how do you, how are, like what's happening underneath the surface is like, how are you brave? You got to rely on other people, right? And even though you've not done it before, someone's going to be there for you. Like all of those themes are there. And what's happening is I'm also giving left brain language. I'm afraid I don't know if I can do it. I've never done it before. So then when my kid is in an experience where he's like, oh, I don't know, I've never done this before, all of these things are kind of getting layered in. And it gives our kids exactly what you just said, the opportunity to kind of really like sink into the emotional experiences of life. And we can do that through play. I want to just say one other thing about the nature thing. You know, play is if it's not. Not fun, it's not really. If it's not fun enough, it's not really play. So by its very nature it's fun. One of the reasons the experience of being in nature and all the discomfort that comes with it is they're having enough fun that they're willing to tolerate all of the discomfort. Physical, emotional, maybe even relational, maybe they're even conflicting with a sibling over, no, we're using this rock. We're not building it that high. We're going the other direction, right? So even the conflict that may be happening relationally, it's fun enough. So that's exactly what we've been talking about, is it gives them reps of building and stretching their ability to tolerate frustration or having someone want to do things a different way than they want to do it. And how do you navigate that? So they're building all those skills. My three boys are now 24, 21 and 18, and they, we live in Los Angeles, they've all played sports and that's great adversity, kind of resilience, building. But every summer since they were nine, they've gone to the northwoods of Minnesota, to abortion boys camp, called Camp Chippewa for Boys, where I typically have gone and done the staff training, so I felt really especially comfortable sending them there. But it's a tripping camp where they're out in the, like, north, north parts of Canada in the wilderness for 17 days. It doesn't start when they're. When you're nine, you. You canoe across the lake and camp overnight one night. But it builds to this trip before their senior year of high school, where they are literally like, like, like maybe polar bears and beluga. Like, my son, my eldest just had his final trip last summer, and he's actually writing, wrote his college essays on this, that the best day of his life and the worst day of his life were the same. And it was the day where they had, like, torrential downpours and like, potential hypothermia and. And it was like, so frustrating they didn't get to the camp. Like, it was all this stuff, but they were all in the rain, drenched, exhausted, singing together. And then the next day they went into Hudson Bay and saw all these beluga whales and stuff. What's amazing about this experience is they now know they have these experiences. Like, that was the hardest day, and I totally did it. And so that's kind of a more extreme version. But I think whether it's a super guy going down a rope or it's playing outside where you're muddy and dirty and there's sand in your shoe and something, you know, you're wet and your brother won't play with you the way you want want, or something really, really challenging in nature, these are all the experiences that build emotional resilience, relational competence, all of these things.
- [46:48]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Can I just add something to this? Because I think we're not just talking about building resilience in our kids, but we're building our own resilience too. When we learn how to join our kids playfully and creatively and we let them take a few more risks, especially when we're taking it outdoors. Right? So piggybacking off of what Tina was saying about her boys going to this amazing camp where they're outside and they're braving the wilderness. I had to put my money where my mouth is because I decided after the pandemic, we were homeschooling my 10 year old. Well, he's 10 now, much younger then. But I decided I'm going to send him to school. But I found a farm to send him to school on. And when you sign your kid up to go to school, he's not like day labor.
- [47:33]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
No one worried. John, call Child Protective Services on Georgia.
- [47:36]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
It's a home. It's a homeschool enrichment program based at a farm. And when you sign your kid up to go to school on this farm, you have to sign a waiver that says your child will be traipsing across 250 acres of farmland. Your child will come into contact with large livestock. Your child will be handling compost and cow poop and all sorts of things. Your child may climb trees. And I'm like, wow, in today's day and age, we have to sign a waiver to give people permission to lead our kids in the thing. You know, this is what you talk about, Jenny, all the time, I'm sure. But I was like, am I ready for this? Am I ready to let him do all of these things? You know, he was kind of bubble wrapped at home over the pandemic for a few years, and I was like, like, yeah, I guess I'm gonna have to do this. And he comes home just jubilant, telling me things like, guess what, Mom? I learned how to make preparation 500. You pack cow poop into a cow horn and you bury it in the ground, and it's supposed to make plants grow like 100 times better. Things like that. Just the joy that comes out of these experiences then stretch my ability as a parent to want him to have my more experiences like that and even let him, you know, go outside and play in the neighborhood with other kids and go bike riding and all those things that we want to get our kids out and maybe even off screens or whatever that looks like for your family or something that I feel more resilient to. Also make creative choices in my parenting, like, how am I going to respond in this moment? Am I going to let my emotions get the better of me? Am I going to get angry and come down on him and say, I told you not to scratch the dining room table while you were fidgeting with that pencil that you were scraping around when you were doing X, Y or Z. Or am I going to use a playful pivot? Which is another kind of a tip we talk about in the book when you really want to get your kids cooperation and you want to shift the moment. And it could be a power struggle. You know, we're talking about struggles and challenges, but it could be a power struggle where they're like, no, I don't want to get in the bath, or no, I want to play this way and you're not letting me kind of thing that you could playfully pivot that situation. And it opens up more options for Parents to choose. The playful pathway is choosing. You know, it is a primitive part of the brain to go with play, but it's also a really sophisticated skill for a parent to be able to hold on to their own emotion and then be able to say, okay, look, look, look, I know you don't want to clean up your toys, but if I cover my eyes and, you know, you take four toys and put them away, let's see if I can remember which four toys you just cleaned up or something like that. Like, you can twist things in a really positive way that will gain your kids cooperation, and their motivation will be switched on in that moment to also get them to do things that they wouldn't ordinarily would want to do. Maybe they still don't want to do it, but when you add in play as an ingredient, sometimes we can get our kids to do things that they would never willingly do before, which is kind of nice. And it builds our resilience in our parenting as well.
- [50:51]
Ginny Urch
I thought that was beautiful. Georgie Kim Jong Payne. He ended his book Simplicity Parenting, and I've never forgotten this little phraseology that he used. And he said, when we rescue our kids childhood, we inevitably, remarkably, day by day, rescue ourselves back. And that's what I hear you saying, Georgie, is like, you know, in this book, the way of play, it's serving our kids, and it's helping them to grow so that they're not stunted, but also it's helping us as well. And like you're talking about, it's like this passing of the baton that we're becoming more resilient parents, allowing our kids to go do more things. And, Tina, with your boys being those ages, like, we're right there. Our oldest is 16. So it's coming where they're gonna drive and you're. They're gonna be out in the world, and you have to have had times when you've passed the baton to them so that you have your own resilience to allow them to continue to grow and to thrive. It comes sooner than you think. I also liked this where you talked about. For our own. You know, you're talking about our own selves, Georgie. That we have to also model how we handle failure. I loved. This is one of my favorite parts. We want to model handling failures with levity, with an eye toward learning from setbacks. So we have to be doing things that we could fail at. This example was I burned the bread again. Oh, well, we'll cut off the edges and use extra butter. And now I know to set my timer for less than the recipe suggests. Our oven is full of surprises.
- [52:18]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I love that I burn the bread all the time, every time. My kids will now say, like, mom, do you think you should just stand there? Like, if I have it on broil, like, do you need to stand there with your hand on the stuff? And I'm like, that probably still won't help because I'll be talking to you about something else. Yeah, I mean, I. Children. The two main ways children learn are, number one, and this is Allison Gopnik's work yet again. Number one, by doing it themselves. That's the primary way they learn. Number two is by what is modeled for them. Right? So again, back to, like, giving them opportunities to face failures themselves and navigate it. And number two, by how we handle our failures. And I want to say one other thing related to this, and that is this. We are meaning makers for our children. They look to us to understand the meaning of things, and we see this all the time. Right? You've seen those viral videos that have been going around where the parent is holding their infant, and they don't actually hit their child's head on the door, on a. The door jam, but they make a noise as if they did. And then they're like, oh, no, I'm so sorry I bumped your head. And then the baby. Babies will start crying as if they were hurt. I don't know if you've seen these. Or our child falls and they look at us, and if we go, they have a totally different response than if we go, oh, ouch, come here. You know, and that was so the way we respond to things that are unfolding in the world creates meaning for them. And actually, this is a huge responsibility, and it's something we need to really be thoughtful of, because one of the things that I think is a huge part of children's mental health challenges right now is skyrocket levels of parental anxiety. And what happens is when we walk around the world being afraid or being reactive all the time or being really anxious all the time, we are creating meaning for our children, verbally and non verbally, that the world is dangerous, it's full of threats, or we need to freak out about this or whatever. So I think we really need to mind our own regulation, number one. But the way we respond to our own failures, our own challenges, our own stress, we are literally creating meaning for our children in those moments about how their brains map how they should handle failure. So if we are fun and playful, like, oh, gosh, I just the, the. I'm always in a battle with our oven and dang it, I lost again. You know, and if you're just fine about things, and especially this is a way we can be playful as our kids. Kids move into their adolescent years where they're not going to let us sit on the floor with them and play pirate. This is so crucial. And I'll just say one other thing on this point, and that is that play and playfulness like we're talking about is incompatible neurophysiologically. So my emotions, my bodily states with threat states. So threat states are reactive states, right? Afraid, angry, etc. Play and playfulness creates receptivity and curiosity, and it's literally incompatible with those states. So the more play and playful we are, more, more we bring in play and playfulness, the more we are arming our children against reactivity and anxiety and reactivity.
- [55:30]
Ginny Urch
Amazing. Amazing. We have to scaffold and stretch ourselves too, so we have those opportunities to model for them. I went to a book signing. No one showed up. It was like so awful and my kids were there and I was so embarrassed and I was like lamenting. But, you know, I mean, that's the situation, right, where like they see that and how do you react? So I love that it gives us a little push to push ourselves for the sake of modeling to our kids. If your child has a perfectionistic and anxious bend, it's even more important to give them opportunities to bounce back after setbacks. So much in this wonderful book, the Way of Play. My favorite cartoon was the one trying to get a kid back inside. Because sometimes we can't get them out, but then once they're out, we can't get them back in. It's like wanting to look at the bugs. And so you talk about having an ending ritual. Just very practical ideas. In the way of play, we always wrap with the same question. I'm going to ask you to do it real quick. You can give maybe your social media tag too, where people can find you. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [56:31]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
That's a good one.
- [56:32]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I'll start. Yeah, from the time, Starting at age 5, we lived across the street from this big hill, this big slope. I grew up in Orange County, California, and we used to get cardboard and slide down the hill. But we also would build forts and create whole worlds in these up in the. The hills and the trees next to my house. And there are still smells when I'm. I still live in Southern California that like Remind me. It's like this maple syrupy kind of plant and when I smell it, it reminds me of those times up in those, up in those bushes and, and you can find me on Instagram or many other social media places. My handle is Tina Payne Bryson.
- [57:12]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Oh, that's so nice. So I grew up with a sister. I'm the older sister. I have a four year age gap with my younger sister. So I was always the. I'm going to tell. Tell you what we're playing and, and I'm going to be the mommy in the, in the play, which Tina was joking the other day that you can see a lot of the patterns of her play and who she's become and what she does now. Professionally, I think my sister would probably say that's pretty. That's stayed the same in me over, over time. But like when my parents were busy on the weekends and cleaning the house or whatever, my sister and I would go out to the avocado, the big blanket avocado tree in the backyard that almost was so big it had like different rooms in it where different sections. We turn it into our playhouse and we'd just be climbing branches of it or we'd be setting up our dolls and stuff underneath the, the different branches of this avocado tree and we'd be playing families and, you know, kind of mimicking and figuring out like what it was like to be in our family and what would it be like if we had our own family and how many kids do we want one day and things like that. So it's really a projection of who we're going to become in our futures. You can see a little model for who your kid is becoming as they play too. So just don't be afraid to join that world or open up that world with your child because you're going to see a lot of that not only memory persist, but also those ideas of who they are coming through in a really authentic and genuine way. And you can find me on Instagram at Georgie Wisson Vincent right there.
- [58:45]
Ginny Urch
This has been so wonderful. Thank you so much for encouraging parents. It's wonderful book. Dr. Tina has sold more than 3 million copies of books, so what an honor. I'll put all sorts of links. There's a Center for Connection, there's the Play Strong Institute. Lots of deep dives that you can do to learn more. Thank you so much for being here.
- [59:02]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Thank you, Jenny.
- [59:03]
Georgie Wissen Vincent
Thanks, Jenny.