1KHO 427: There is So Little Time For Kids to Be Kids | Libbie Palmer, TimberNook Chiddingfold

Summary

Summary of Episode 427: "There is So Little Time For Kids to Be Kids" featuring Libbie Palmer

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast hosted by Ginny Yurich delves into the crucial topic of unstructured outdoor play for children in its 427th episode. This episode features Libbie Palmer from TimberNook Chiddingfold, UK, who shares her inspiring journey as a mother of six and the founder of the TimberNook program. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from their conversation.

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1. Introduction to Libbie Palmer

Ginny Urch warmly welcomes Libbie Palmer, highlighting their connection through the TimberNook conference attended alongside Angela Hanscom. Ginny emphasizes Libbie's dedication and previews the enriching discussion ahead.

Notable Quote:

• Ginny Urch [00:29]: "I have such a special, special guest today... Libbie Palmer, welcome."

2. Libbie’s Background and Parenting Philosophy

Libbie introduces herself as a mother of six, residing in Chiddingfold, UK. She reflects on her upbringing on a farm, emphasizing the natural, outdoorsy lifestyle her parents provided. Libbie expresses concern over the increasing necessity to consciously ensure children spend ample time outdoors, noting a cultural shift towards over-scheduled activities.

Notable Quotes:

• Libbie Palmer [01:54]: "...they have romped and climbed and adventured and that all came very naturally to us."
• Libbie Palmer [03:34]: "There's so little time for boredom, there's so little time for unsupervised play."

3. Evolution of Parenting and Increased Scheduling

Over her 25-year parenting journey, Libbie has observed a significant increase in structured activities for children. She discusses societal pressures for children to excel in multiple areas, which often comes at the expense of free play and spontaneous adventures.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [03:34]: "I think parents are under pressure to work and therefore their kids are in school and then after school clubs perhaps."

4. Foundation and Vision of TimberNook

Libbie elaborates on TimberNook as an outdoor play experience that allows children to engage in self-directed play within a supervised yet non-intrusive environment. Located near her home, TimberNook offers a natural woodland setting where children can explore, create, and interact freely.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [12:58]: "It's basically an outdoor play experience in nature that gives children time in a supervised but not micromanaged way."

5. Challenges in Promoting TimberNook

Operating in an affluent commuter village, Libbie discusses the unexpected challenges in attracting participants to TimberNook. Despite the community’s resources, explaining TimberNook’s unique, unstructured approach proved difficult amidst numerous similar options.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [23:43]: "It's difficult to explain the kind of unique elements of TimberNook... social media and tech is not my forte at all."

6. Benefits of Unstructured Outdoor Play

Libbie highlights the profound benefits of unstructured play, including enhanced creativity, self-regulation, and social skills. She shares a memorable instance where children collaboratively built a pulley system to forage water, demonstrating teamwork and problem-solving without adult intervention.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [19:38]: "It's to see that progress. Those that may have been hesitant initially, watch their confidence build."

7. Personal Challenges and Growth

Libbie opens up about her personal challenges, including her ex-husband’s traumatic brain injury, which led her to become a single mother. She credits The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast for providing inspiration and guidance during this tumultuous period, ultimately leading to the creation of TimberNook.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [11:35]: "That's when I discovered you and your podcast. And that's opened up a whole new future."

8. Impact on Children and Family Dynamics

TimberNook fosters strong, lasting friendships among children of varying ages, promoting a sense of community and mutual support. Libbie observes that children become more confident, creative, and comfortable in their own skin through consistent outdoor play.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [49:45]: "To watch you literally watch them grow and develop and just blossom week by week by week."

9. Advice for Large Families and Aspiring Providers

Libbie offers heartfelt advice for parents of large families and those interested in starting their own TimberNook programs. She emphasizes simplicity, bravery, and leveraging community support as key components for success.

Notable Quotes:

• Libbie Palmer [06:55]: "Don't sweat the small stuff. Keep it simple."
• Libbie Palmer [45:41]: "If I can do it, you can do it."

10. Overcoming Weather Challenges

Acknowledging the unpredictable UK weather, Libbie underscores the importance of resilience and commitment. She shares how children gain grit and satisfaction from enduring various weather conditions, enhancing their overall outdoor experience.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [35:29]: "It teaches kids grit. You wouldn't necessarily choose to go out in it, but you've signed up, you've made a commitment."

11. Facilitating Parent Relationships and Community Building

TimberNook not only benefits children but also provides parents with much-needed time and opportunities to build relationships. Libbie highlights how the program fosters a supportive community among mothers, offering a safe space for relaxation and connection.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [46:29]: "I've watched amazing relationships unfold from that."

12. Conclusion and Final Reflections

The episode concludes with Ginny and Libbie reflecting on the extensive benefits of TimberNook for children, parents, and the community. Libbie shares a cherished childhood memory of sheep shearing, reinforcing her lifelong connection to nature. Ginny expresses gratitude for Libbie's contributions and encourages listeners to support or start TimberNook programs.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [53:38]: "We used to go and round up the sheep on our ponies... that was a big day. And quite possibly one of my best childhood memories."

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Key Takeaways

• Importance of Unstructured Play: Allowing children time and space to engage in self-directed outdoor play is crucial for their development.

• Community and Support: Building a supportive community around outdoor programs like TimberNook enhances their success and impact.

• Parenting Shifts: There’s a growing need to reduce scheduled activities for children, enabling more natural and spontaneous play experiences.

• Resilience and Adaptability: Teaching children to navigate various weather conditions builds resilience and a deeper connection to nature.

• Personal Growth: Initiatives like TimberNook not only benefit children but also facilitate personal growth and community building among parents.

How to Support TimberNook

Libbie encourages listeners to spread the word about TimberNook through social media and community networks. For those interested in starting their own programs, she offers support and guidance, emphasizing that anyone can make a positive impact by providing children with the invaluable gift of outdoor play.

Notable Quote:

• Libbie Palmer [52:18]: "My advice would be, if I can do it, you can do it."

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This episode underscores the transformative power of outdoor play and the profound benefits it offers to children and their communities. Libbie Palmer's dedication to fostering an environment where children can thrive naturally serves as an inspiring model for parents and educators alike.

Transcript

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[Ginny Urch]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have such a special, special guest today. We've met in person, we've spent time together. I adore her and I know you're gonna love her too. Libby Palmer, welcome.

[Libby Palmer]

Thank you so much, Ginny. It's an absolute privilege to be here.

[Ginny Urch]

Oh, I'm so excited about this. You run a Timber Nook program in the UK and, and we met at the Timbernook conference with Angela Hanscom, I think that's what she calls it is a conference. And all of the providers come in from around the world. And it was such a delight to meet you there and to learn more about what you're doing with Timbernook in the uk. But also what's it like to be a kid in the area that you live. And this whole thing is that kids, they all sort of need the same stuff to grow up. They need time and space to play and they self educate and all of these things, no matter where you live, are so important when you're a child. So it was really interesting to me, Libby, to hear you talk about, I guess, the culture of childhood in your area. So let's just kick it off by talking about you. You're a mom with six kids. A mum, that's what you would say. A mom with six. Six kids and you live on a farm. You've started this Timbernook program. But I would love to hear just going back a little further than that. When you became a mom, can you remember back, what were your thoughts on how you wanted to parent and did that shift over the years?

[Libby Palmer]

Yes, I, I am a mom of six kids. My eldest is 25 and my youngest is nine. I've been privileged to live in Chidding Pole for pretty much my whole life. My parents live on a farm, literally the other side of the village from us. And my father literally lives in the house that he was born in. So very much kind of local, born and bred and still here. My kids were incredibly privileged that without really thinking about it, they had a very outdoorsy lifestyle. They have romped and climbed and adventured and that all came very naturally to us. And it kind of saddens me now that we have to make such a conscious effort for that to have to happen. It's kind of tricky to think it through. We do naturally spend a lot of time outside, but that is not necessarily normal. And I think we face a lot of the same issues that you guys do, that kids are scheduled from dawn till dusk. There's so little time for boredom, there's so little time for unsupervised play, kind of naturally occurring adventures. So I think it is pretty similar to you guys. And I so wish that I had known way back in the beginning of my parenting journey all the things I've learned from you over the last few years, because there are things I would do differently. But yeah, from an outdoorsy perspective, my kids have always had a lot of fun and a lot of freedom.

[Ginny Urch]

So tell us more about the scheduling because that is definitely a thing here in the States too. There's a lot of good programs. Have you noticed any changes? I mean, you've been a mom for two and a half decades. Have you noticed changes over those two and a half decades, those 25 years? Or was it sort of like that 25 years ago too, where there was all of this scheduling?

[Libby Palmer]

I have definitely noticed that a change for sure. I think for my older kids there were after school clubs and activities, but not to the extent that there are these days. And I think a lot of parents are under pressure to work and therefore their kids are in school and then after school clubs perhaps. But I also think that parents want their children to be an expert in everything. And it's always played on my mind that in an interview in your 20s, perhaps you are not going to be asked at what age you learnt your times tables or at what age you learned to read. Those things are irrelevant. They will happen in good time. I think it's unrealistic to expect our children to be phenomenal at tennis and cricket and football and whatever else it might be. And whilst these skills are all great skills to have, there is so little time for kids to be kids.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah. I think one of the things that parents would love to hear from you, Libby, is. And you talked about this, you're in this. You call it a village.

[Libby Palmer]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

What's population? Ish. Do a lot of people know each other? You said your father's in the home that he was born in.

[Libby Palmer]

Yeah, it's we are about an hour south of London, so it's quite a popular commuter village. I would have no idea of the population. I'm absolutely hopeless of things like that. There is a great community. There's. There's a lot on offer in the village, but it is an affluent area and it's an area where, yeah, a lot of kids are able to do a lot of extracurricular activities, et cetera.

[Ginny Urch]

So the question is, and this is a big question of our day, we're very influenced by other people. There's peer pressure, but there's also parental peer pressure. So I think parents would love to know from you, how have you stood your ground there in an area where people are signing their kids up for all sorts of classes and you're not doing it to the extent that they are?

[Libby Palmer]

Gosh, I have certainly had moments that I have questioned and wobbled and considered whether my kids are doing enough. And I would credit you for a huge amount. Over the last few years, I have listened to 413 episodes of your podcast. I have over 50 books because of your podcast. And I just think you have to. You have to choose. You have to be brave and you have to choose a different way. And I know having been a mum for 25 years, I know how quickly that time flies and you don't get that time back. The more I've journeyed, the more courage I've had and the more conviction I've had that kids need time. And to the point that I actually took my two youngest, I took them out of school three and a half years ago. I've been home educating for the last three and a half years, and I am absolutely loving it. One of the greatest gifts in that is time. And it's knowing your children, it's being with your children. And yes, there's tricky moments, and yes, they do drive me mad when they're bored, but equally, I know to value that and ride it out and it comes. Good.

[Ginny Urch]

I love that you said, the more I've journeyed, the more courage I have. And that's what happens. You have to walk it out, you have to take those steps, and then the courage comes. It doesn't happen the opposite way. And then you look back and you're really glad for the choices that you've made. So talk to us about being a mom of six. That's incredible. What advice do you have for the large families? What advice do you have for the moms who are considering having a large family?

[Libby Palmer]

Wow. Don't sweat the small stuff. Would be my, one of my greatest pieces of advice. Keep it simple. It's not easy, for sure, but it is phenomenally rewarding. And my journey has not been what I imagined it would be. Life threw us a massive curveball and as Sean would say in one of your recent episodes, we've had some pretty hefty severing moments. And so I'm actually a single mum of six kids now. But I love it, I feel passionately about it and it's always been my dream. Large families here are rare, very rare. I think it would probably be way more normal in perhaps America, Canada, other places. So, yeah, we are not considered normal here in any way, shape or form. But it is a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing to watch your children choose as they grow older to be friends with one another. My older kids have been on holiday together recently. It's a privilege, it's an honor and it's beautiful. But it is hard. But hard doesn't necessarily mean bad.

[Ginny Urch]

True. ND Wilson is an author who wrote this book called Death by Living. And they came, and it wasn't to the uk, but they came over to Europe with their family, which I think he maybe had four kids, but he came with his brother or something and they also had four kids. So there was eight kids.

[Libby Palmer]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And they're talking about how they went into this one restaurant and because it's just so rare to have kids in there or certainly large families, every kid got this moose stuffed animal and he said they like, you know, they used all of them. They had to go to the back to get more. And we have friends who have five kids and they came over for a vacation last year and they said everyone just looked at them, you know, with all these kids walking around because it's just more rare. So you really are fine to do things that other people are not doing.

[Libby Palmer]

I am, I am the second eldest of six kids myself, so it's, it's pretty familiar. And we, we very much live in community. So I have five of my siblings still local to me and I think there's 20 something grandchildren now. And we, we live in community, we hang out together a lot. So when we go to a coffee shop or a cafe or a restaurant, we are very used to having to move and combine tables and we try and arrive calmly and quietly. It doesn't always go that way, but yeah, we, we stand out for sure.

[Ginny Urch]

Talk to us about the transition to adult children because I know this is one that everyone's always wondering about. You say that your kids are still friends, they're still going on holiday together. What's your advice there?

[Libby Palmer]

Gosh, what is my advice? To do the very best you can every day and to take opportunities, to share adventures, to talk, to face the hard things together. And I think for us, my ex husband had a traumatic brain injury eight years ago, and that was a clattering moment in each of our lives. And each of these life experiences, they make you bitter or better. And you have a choice every day. It's not an overall decision, but we. We've journeyed that together. It has not been easy. And there's times it's still not easy. My older kids don't live at home anymore, but we always made family meal times a massive feature. We still gather with extended family for meal times. We've never had screens and devices at the table. Yeah, to share adventures, to do life together, to hang out. And it's the simplest things. It's a walk on the beach, it's a fire pit in the woods. They're not extravagant or expensive adventures, but it's time and investing in them, knowing them, riding out the periods of time where they do withdraw. They don't particularly want to talk. You're certainly not cool to be with, but they. They come through that. And I can assure you I have some more tricky characters and some more straightforward characters, but they are all absolutely phenomenal. And I'm so pleased that I've invested all that I have and I've had the privilege of investing in each of them.

[Ginny Urch]

So you talked about a severing. Several severings, which is a really interesting thing. I never heard anyone use that word. It came from Dr. Edith Eager, who went through the Holocaust at age 16. She wrote two phenomenal books. Really? There's three. One's called the Choice, one's called the Gift. And then she wrote a kid's version of her memoir. It's called the Ballerina of Auschwitz. And she had this moment she called the Severing, where she was separated from her mother in line and that was the last time she saw her. And then I had spoken to this Shawn Diederich, who I love. He's a phenomenal author. I read his book Will the Circle Be Unbroken? And gave it to some friends for Christmas. And he had a Severing. His father took his life when Sean was in seventh grade. And Sean didn't really go back to school after that. And it was just a complete turning point. Is the traumatic brain injury, was that the severing?

[Libby Palmer]

Yeah, that was One of several. Nothing prepares you for that moment. Nothing prepares you for facing that moment. We had just left our home to live with my parents temporarily while we extended our home. We were running a business and then a traumatic brain injury. And it certainly makes you hunker down and go into survival mode. But again, I have so much to thank you for because as I came out of that crazy period of time wondering what was next, thinking what was next, praying about what was next, that's when I discovered you and your podcast. And that's opened up a whole new future. That's how I found about Timbernook was through Angela Hansen's original interview with you. So yeah, you have been the kind of what comes next and so much part of that journey.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow, what a thing. Oh, I'm so glad that we've connected. That's really, really cool to hear because you never know. You know, you put your voice out into the ether and you have no idea who hears it. You have a little bit of an idea because, you know, people write sometimes, but for the most part you really don't. And Angela was so transformative in my own journey as a mom and our kids journey. And I just love what she's built with Timbernook. So I would love for you to tell families what Timbernook is and what you have going on in Chittingfold with your program.

[Libby Palmer]

Timbernook is incredible. It's really difficult to sum up kind of briefly. It's basically an outdoor play experience in nature that gives children time in a supervised but not micromanaged way. We have it literally a couple of fields away from our our home. It's in the woodland. The woods are beautiful. They're mainly beech trees. We have access to a stream at the bottom of our site and it's phenomenally beautiful just to be out there. The bird song's incredible. We have wild garlic and bluebells in the spring. It's absolutely glorious. It's amazing and a privilege and honor to share that with as many families and small children as possible. We have term time preschooler sessions, we have home ed sessions, we have holiday camps for children that attend school and homemade kids if they want to come. We have all sorts on offer and are trying to look and grow that kind of reassess and grow that all the time.

[Ginny Urch]

So you're several years in. I think it's really brave to step out and try a brand new program. Were you nervous at the beginning?

[Libby Palmer]

When I first heard Angela's interview, I did spend a lot of time thinking of all those that I know that could set up Timbernook here in the uk. And then had quite a moment of conviction when I thought, hang on a minute, why? Why not me? And that was early on in my home educating journey with my boys. And yeah, there was quite a moment. And then I of course doubted myself and came up with 101 reasons why I couldn't. None of which were true. I was nervous. I trained here in the UK with Austra who was running Timbernook London at the time on Wimbledon Common. She's actually just finished this last summer. So it's slightly daunting and scary now that I'm flying solo here in the.

[Ginny Urch]

Uk which is incredible though it wouldn't be there if not for you.

[Libby Palmer]

It's certainly a privilege, an absolute honor. And I think for me it was made even more exciting being at conference for the first time, meeting so many like minded people and knowing that although I'm here alone, we are on a collective mission for sure.

[Ginny Urch]

I think it would be wonderful. In the States there's counties. Not sure how it is where you live, but a county might be like two or three cities combined. I guess it depends. I don't really even know how they figure it out. Honestly, I've never thought about it until right at this moment. But these different counties and I think it would be so wonderful if there were a Timber Nook program in every one of those counties. It would be so utilized because this isn't facilitated in the neighborhoods too much anymore because kids are at supervised activities so they don't get a chance to just run around and be kids and have their own adventures and make their own decisions. I love when there's new ones that pop up. I just love hearing about them. One popped up near us in Jackson, Michigan with, with Cassie Butters and we all were at the conference together and I got to go, I got to go to the launch week. It was so cool. Libby. I got to meet Angela. That was the first time I met her in person. Was the first time that you met her at this conference. It was okay.

[Libby Palmer]

Nope, it was the first time I met her. And yeah, just incredible to, to be together and to meet people that are as genuine face to face as they are on Zoom or online or. Yeah, it was incredible to meet the team.

[Ginny Urch]

So you start a Timbernook program. This is outdoor nature play. It's a drop off program where families are going to drop their children off in a mixed age setting, which is phenomenal. I know there's like in yours you have the tiny tots, which might be a year and a half to four. And then you have another program where I think I wrote it down. Ages 4 to 11. This is a big range of kids. So these kids come, they get mixed age play, which Peter Gray talks about so much in Free to Learn. But you're doing it in an area where this is not common. How have people responded?

[Libby Palmer]

So our tiny ones is for 18 months to four years and that is a stay in place. So that's alongside their parents, caregivers. The older ones, 4 to 11, they are drop off sessions. We have quite a few forest schools in this area, but they are much more structured. They have quite an intended educational outcome. There is an element of free play, but not that like there is at Timbernook. One of the greatest gifts and one of the most beautiful things is to watch that mixed age group play. And like I said earlier, we live in community with my children's cousins and my siblings. So the youngest cousin is only just over a year and the eldest is late 20s. So they mix a lot and it's really natural and normal for them. But again, that's something I've had to consider that that's not natural and normal for many people. So to watch the older kids and the more capable kids, the stronger kids help the younger ones. It's beautiful, it's amazing and it doesn't have to be spoken, it doesn't have to be suggested. They find their way. And one of my favorite memories from last summer was the older kids foraging water from the stream up to. They dug a massive pit and they'd chosen to line it with a shower curtain that we actually had hanging in the trees for painting. But they'd taken it down, they'd like. They dug this pit, they lined this pit and then they hung a bucket on a long piece of wood and they marched up and down the hill. So there was an older kid in the stream foraging for water. They had a pulley system and it was just amazing to see what they could achieve. And they stuck at it for hours. Ages, hours potentially. There's definitely photos on the Timbernook Chilling Fold Facebook page for anybody that wants to see that. But it, it is absolutely amazing. And those little ones of four, yes, they, they are tired, they're exhausted by the end of the session, but they get stuck in. They're moving pallets, they're moving bricks, they're moving tires. They go and go and go. It's amazing.

[Ginny Urch]

I love that story because I think it really illustrates well, this is not a structured adult program. Adult structured program. It's not an adult structured program. There's no curriculum. We're not saying do this, do that. But what could a child be learning from creating a pulley system and working together as a team with all different ages?

[Libby Palmer]

Absolutely. It's so much just the delight in themselves by the end of a session and you watch them reach a whole new level of play each session. So for those that sign up and come back perhaps several days in a row, again, it's to see that progress. Those that may have been hesitant initially, watch their confidence build, see them challenge their bodies, challenge their minds. It's awesome.

[Ginny Urch]

And it can happen in just a few days. You see the change in them.

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[Ginny Urch]

Has it been hard then to get people to join in? Given the fact that it's an affluent area and a lot of kids? Maybe the parents are working and they're doing after school structured activities?

[Libby Palmer]

Yeah, it has been a challenge and more so than I anticipated. I'm trying to spread the word, not just in social media, but I've this morning I've just packed 50 files that I'm gonna planning to drop off in local clinics or the dentist or surgeries or whatever it might be, just to spread the word. I thought more people would pick up on it quickly but I think there are quite a few similar options but not the same. So it's difficult to explain the kind of unique elements of Timbernook and it has been difficult to draw people in and social media and tech is not my forte at all. So that has stretched me and pushed me and continues to do so. But I am absolutely determined to promote Timbernook to the very best of my ability always.

[Ginny Urch]

So the unique thing is that it is self structured. It's structured by the child completely and the adults. Because I'm so glad I got a chance to go to Cassie's. I went for the whole first week and the adults sort of are in the background. You're there in case somebody gets hurt or you're there to monitor and make sure that everyone is safe, but you're really in the background. Like you're almost trying to sort of hide a little bit behind the trees or kind of just not be noticed. Similar to probably how things used to be decades ago when kids would run in the neighborhoods and the parents would, maybe the moms would be around but they're not monitoring. Maybe they're in the kitchen or they're on the porch or whatever, but they're not in the middle of it. So this is one of the things that's going on. And also it's a, it's a fairly long period of time. Like when you talk about kids in the pulley system and they're moving water from one spot to the next and then they take that whole adventure into the next day and into the next day. Can you talk about how much time they get to figure out their play and why that's important?

[Libby Palmer]

Our sessions for the 4 to 11 year olds are from 9:30 to 1:30. Generally speaking, I have now offered an extended date of 3:30. So we meet and greet, we walk over to the woods, which is not a huge distance. We gather, we quite often start off with a story which kind of sets a theme for the day. And then literally, like you say, we step back and they're good to go. There's two Timbernick rules. One is to be kind to nature and each other and the others to always be able to see an adult. But like you said, we try and make ourselves scarce. We try and tuck out the way, tuck down. So we always have, at Timberland, at Chillingfold, we always have three members of staff at least. So we will be strategically placed so that we can see that the area that the chin children have access to. But the whole idea is that we have as little input and involvement from that moment onwards as possible. Of course, we step in if a child's in danger, but it is amazing to see kids work things out for themselves. So we would then gather around a fire pit towards the end of our session and perhaps toast marshmallows and then we'd walk back over. So children have a huge amount of time within that session. For example, from, I would say from before 10am, if they're finishing at 1:30, they're flying solo till 10 past 1 at least. So, yeah, several hours.

[Ginny Urch]

I would imagine that there are parents listening that really couldn't even picture that, because I couldn't picture it. When I first was made aware that playing outside for extended periods of time is really good for children, I just remember thinking, what in the world would they do? So for the parent that's thinking six hours, if they come for the extended time, 9:30 to 3:30, with very little adult input, what do they do?

[Libby Palmer]

They certainly don't ever say, I'm bored. There's a few that will, after our circle time, that will kind of look around and clearly be really unfamiliar with finding something to do. And they. They may wander temporarily, they may sit and watch temporarily. From our circle time, they can see a fair amount of what's available. So there's always pallets, woods, wood piles, bricks. There may be straw bales, there may be pipes and pulleys, There may be buckets, shovels, hammer and nails, depending on the age group. So they'll wander and explore. We've got a fantastic fallen tree at the top of our site, which is a really popular den base. So they often tramp up through the woods and check that out. Then they literally amuse themselves. There's some that love to climb, there's some that never want to climb. Gosh. They occasionally will check in with an adult, but equally, the less you say, the less they check in. And they will romp. They will romp. They may play tag. There's quite often a couple of dens and there'll be den invasions and interesting conversations about what kit goes with what den. And can other people have that palette? Can they have that pile of bricks? And they fathom it out, they work it out. Stream is always popular. It's sort of a combination of patches of clay and sand and that will amuse them for hours. We've got a couple of different swings and it's interesting. Those that are perhaps overstimulated at times will come and take some time out. They'll swing, they'll quite often, it's a hammock swing, so quite often they'll swing on their tummy or kind of not in a sitting position and they'll just take some time. You can see they may spin, they may just swim quietly, they self regulate and then they're good to go again. There's a trapeze line that we sometimes have up. There's all sorts available.

[Ginny Urch]

These are all simple things. In some ways it would be something that a parent could emulate. Could you have some straw in your yard? Different building materials, bricks, sticks, whatever. I loved what you said is that they amuse themselves. And this is a really interesting diversion that we have here in society, Libby, where we have some kids who are growing up and they maybe hardly ever amuse themselves because they're in adult directed activities. And then there's screens and screens are a manufactured amusement. And then you have these kids that are three, four, six hours maybe where they are amusing themselves, especially as a mom with older kids and having, you know, some of that hindsight, what are some of the benefits that you see? Because I think a parent could be maybe not confused but just sort of like, well, who cares? Why does that matter? If a child is able to amuse themselves, what benefits do you see long term from a kid that's able to play for four hours in a row, coming up with their own ideas?

[Libby Palmer]

I think the more time they have, the more they can play, the more comfortable they are in themselves, the less they need to be entertained. And I have a beautiful memory of my eldest sitting on a compost, on a pallet of bags of compost out in our yard. He may have been whistle, learning to whistle, learning to whittle. He was always really happy and content in his own company. And now at 25, he is great in a crowd of people, but he's equally at peace with himself. And screens destroy creativity because they're so highly addictive. As you well know. Kids never choose to come off of the screen to go and do something creative. You have to allow the time. And creativity doesn't come quick necessarily. So in allowing your children time, giving them space, perhaps providing basic materials, they have that in them. They have that fundamentally within them. But it's, it's so often hidden now because of amusing themselves. And like you've said before, where are the kids that are going to play a musical instrument or be artists or all those kind of elements of creativity if they are never allowed to be bored and never need to find something to do? So my older kids, I actually bought a TV for our house a couple of years ago. We never ever had a tv. And the reason I bought it was because I don't want my kids on screens that I don't know what they're looking at, what they're watching. If it's a reasonable size screen on my sitting room wall, I know where they are. I and I know what they're watching. And they have very limited access to that, but it's for all to see. And my older kids didn't have exposure to iPhones and technology. My middle two more so did they had iPhones when they went to secondary school. And I very quickly took those off and they had really basic handsets in case of an emergency. And my younger two have very little screen time and a lot of time to create, to build. They have access to a log store and they can amuse themselves, they can be creative, they try things, they fail, which is also a fantastic part of learning. If they never try and never fail, how are they going to modify their ideas? How are they going to progress? I can't even remember what your original question was.

[Ginny Urch]

Well, we were talking about the screens, but talking about the fact that when kids are able to amuse themselves, it gives them a leg up in a lot of different ways. Like you talk about with your older son. He just is comfortable in his own skin and then they're able to come up with something out of nothing. They have that creativity in them. Tell us why you took away the iPhones for the middle two.

[Libby Palmer]

I think at that point I was aware of the damage it was doing, the impact it was having, the fact that they could not self regulate, they would never choose to put them down. We did have strict rules. They were left downstairs on the worktop at a certain time of night, but it was just, it was stealing their time. It gives you a false impression of relationships. It affects your ability to communicate with adults. Other kids, I just didn't see that they were bringing anything positive at all. And therefore I made a very unpopular decision in my home to remove them. But I think they would now thank me. I think they can see things differently. They're aware of the dangers and ultimately at a certain age, they then have to make those decisions for themselves. But, yeah, there was very little positive coming from it and a lot of negative.

[Ginny Urch]

It's good reminders. Okay, so, Libby, let's talk about the weather. We're in Michigan and it's dreary out. It's snowy and cold and cloudy and just kind of yucky. Sometimes when there's fresh snow, it's really pretty, but that gets kind of gross fairly quickly. And where you're at, you say dreary, dark, wet, pouring with rain.

[Libby Palmer]

Right now it's. Yeah, it's cold, but probably not cold by your standards. It's probably 2 or 3 degrees today. It's lashing with rain. I have the wood burner blazing behind me. It's not very inspiring. But even on a day like today, we would still wrap up and get out, at least for some time.

[Ginny Urch]

And I think that that's a really cool part of Timbernook, that there is this commitment that you're going to go, rain or shine, to this location and take your kids. And I know for Cassie, whose location is here in Jackson, Michigan, hers meets on Thursdays. And there would be a lot of times in life where you would say, nah, not today because of the weather, but because you have this commitment. You go, and the adults go, who are in charge, and the kids show up. How do the kids deal with the weather? Days that are more inclement, that are not the beautiful sunny sky, warm days.

[Libby Palmer]

I have to say, we've been phenomenally blessed with all the Timbernook sessions we've run so far. We've had very, very few, what I would call a grotty day, but again, it teaches kids grit. You wouldn't necessarily choose to go out in it, but like you say, you've signed up, you've made a commitment, you've paid your money, and I don't think you ever feel worse for being in nature. The only time we would cancel if we had dangerously high winds, which again, is pretty rare here. And my boys would certainly say one of their favorite things is being out in all weathers and that satisfying feeling when you come back in. You've got rosy cheeks. You just feel nourished to the core. It's so satisfying. So, yeah, we have tramps cross on a few soggy days. I have to say, the. The woodland offers great shelter. So it may be bleak in the field, but it's always better in the woods. And I swear, you always feel better for it.

[Ginny Urch]

What a thing to teach your kids. I think. I think that's wonderful. I love that part of it and I love hearing the adults talk about it. I've heard some of the other leaders that they would say the same thing, like well, I probably wouldn't have gone out today but I have to be there because now I've signed up for this. This is my job. I mean I feel the same way.

[Quince Ad]

I wouldn't go out at all except.

[Ginny Urch]

That, you know, I'm like, well I'm trying to get outside for a thousand hours and I'm not just telling other people to do it. It's how we're living. So I mean in the mornings I'm like, you know, sometimes I'm annoyed, like oh, I don't really want to, it's so cold. But then you, you do it and then you just feel like revived.

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[Ginny Urch]

It's, it's pretty incredible. And in fact I think there's something really special about those inclement weather days because you feel triumphant. There's something different about it. You come back in and you've done it, you've accomplished something. It's different than going out when it's sunny and beautiful and you know, the middle of the best season. So I think that's a really, really unique and special part of Timbernook. There's all sorts of different sessions. I know there's in the summer there's different types of week long sessions you can do. I'm sure it's different from location to location but this part of going throughout the school year and coming week after week and seeing the same kids I just think is such a really, really unique and special thing that's offered. And then it seems as though it's a good fit for a mother. Cassie, who I keep talking about because I went to hers but she is an occupational therapist. But you don't have to be. You can be a mother and start a location. And Angela had her kids involved the whole way through. It's like a place you could take your child to work and they're getting all sorts of benefits from that. Can you talk about that as a good fit for moms? And I know if you don't have a location, I've talked to a couple different timber nook providers and there's all sorts of options for using different land tracts. I can't even quite remember. Church land, your own land. A friend has land, public land. So you don't even have to have necessarily your own land to make it happen. You just have to be able to show up and Help facilitate these groups of kids. Talk to us about being a mom and having this as your career.

[Libby Palmer]

This is an absolute ideal fit for me because my two youngest are always around. They're with me, we do life together. They've watched the entire Timberland journey unfold for me and they are out there every session, whether it be with the tiny ones or for the kids of their own age group. It's been brilliant. They are extra muscle power when I'm shifting kit backwards and forwards, which is always fantastic. I don't think they've ever suggested that they wouldn't want to be out there with me. It's my thing, but it's also their thing and I can't think which interview it would have been. Like you've mentioned in the past about doing hard things and learning new things in front of our kids and I've been really open with my kids for this entire Timbernook journey. They've seen the, the initial hesitation, they've seen the excitement, they've seen the anticipation, they've seen the fear, they've seen it all. And I, I hope it demonstrates to them that they too can do hard things and step out of their comfort zone. So, yeah, I would highly recommend it to any, any mum because you get to hang out in the woods or in the countryside when with your kids and have a great adventure and hopefully earn some money while you're doing it.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah. What a perfect thing. What a perfect thing because so many people need care for their children and it's wonderful care for your children because they're out there and they are pulling on that biological predisposition to self educate. They're having these multi age experiences which kids are rarely getting. They're out with the natural elements. I mean, it's phenomenal. It reminds me, Libby, that like you're pulling from your insides, you're amusing yourself, you're going out and trying something new. It's, it's really what the kids are doing, but in an adult form, failing learning as you go. I mean, you're kind of in some ways doing the same thing as an entrepreneur, as someone who is now flying solo in the UK with this program. I mean, it's a really big deal. I have, I have changed my tune over the years to think that parenting is mainly modeling and that's what we're doing for our kids and when we do things like this. So if someone were interested, they could get in touch with Angela. You get in touch with Angela Hanscom. That's the person you go to so you would look on the Timbernook site and if you're interested in coming to the cheating fold location, I'll put that link in the show notes as well. And you've got your Instagram and your Facebook.

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[Ginny Urch]

Really cool things. You've got a lot of mushrooms in your area. You guys are foraging a lot.

[Libby Palmer]

The fungi has been fantastic this last autumn. Just literally all those photos are within our Timbernick site and there's some, yeah, beautiful, beautiful fungi out there. We have wild garlic, we have the bluebells, we have primroses. It is absolutely stunning out there.

[Ginny Urch]

You said you'd watched a BBC documentary, the Magic of Mushrooms. Yeah, I haven't seen that one. Tell us about it.

[Libby Palmer]

There was the magic of mushrooms and I haven't seen it, but I believe there's the magic of moths, perhaps. And, yeah, that explores the whole underground communication network that's in the woodland. Absolutely fascinating. Yeah, I highly recommend that. We've got several books on fungi. I love taking pictures of it. Rarely brave enough to eat any, but we have, we have eaten some. But, yeah, that's probably one of my favorite seasons is, well, early, early spring and, and autumn for the fungi for sure.

[Ginny Urch]

So if someone were interested, they could find your actual location and I'll make sure I'll put that in the show notes. Or if they were interested in opening their own, they could reach out to Angela. What advice would you have for someone who is interested? There's gotta be so many people who are listening, I think, Libby, so many who are like, just like you. I would love that for my kids. I would love that for my kids, but there isn't one where I am. And then they would think, well, this person or this friend could open it or that. And. And then like you said, you have that little conviction that you're like, well, what if I do it? But if I'm the one that opens up a location in one day a week or a couple weeks in the summer, I'm offering this play experience for our community. And also it is a job. What advice would you have for someone?

[Libby Palmer]

My advice would be, if I can do it, you can do it. And break it down. Timbernook is an amazing community and there is so much support along the way. So despite the fact that it's been a little different doing it here in the uk, because obviously not everything is exactly as it would be for you guys, I've had Austria to guide me. If there's anybody in the UK that's tempted, my email is there, my phone Number is there. I'm happy to speak to anybody, but it's nowhere near as challenging, kind of from a setup perspective as I thought it might be. Just be brave, go for it. And you can be a blessing to so many kids and so many lives can be changed because of you.

[Ginny Urch]

And that's the truth. That's the truth. Because these experiences are going to be generationally impactful in that child's life and also it's going to branch out into whoever those kids are friends with in their day to day life because they're going to be better players and our world needs that. Our world needs more kids at play and have a depth to them. It matters a lot. It matters a lot for friendships both now and for long term. The other win, the other huge win that I see, Libby, which is such a wonderful part of Timbernook, are these little ones programs that you're doing, Tiny tots or whatever they're called, where the parent comes and stays. Is that helping these parents to form strong bonds in those early years? Those early years are so hard.

[Libby Palmer]

Yeah. It is beautiful to watch the parents step back, the little ones play and the, the parents just having time. And I think when you're sleep deprived, when you're exhausted, when you're on such a steep learning curve to, to be in the woods, even that alone without doing anything helps you self regulate. There's time for conversation, you meet like minded people and yeah, that's a great opportunity. I've got groups of mums that will sign up as a group and I've got mums that meet each other for the first time and I have watched amazing relationships unfold from that. Friends still meet up for coffee now that even though their kids might be at school age and they're no longer coming to Timbernook. But yeah, there have been some fantastic friendships and relationships and just time for mums to particularly to heave a sigh of relief, catch their breath and be in a safe space.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow. I mean the wins are really extensive. So it's a win for the children that come, it's a win for the parents who might be building relationships through it or who have an opportunity to work or get their meals prepped or whatever the situation is for their kid to have this wonderful experience in the woods and it gives the parents time. It's a win for the provider, It's a win for the provider's kids. It's a win for the community. It's a huge win for the community. And I've heard that in a Lot of areas, not every single one, but I'm sure in a lot of areas there's a lot of community support and a lot of people who are backing up these programs because it's so great for the community as a whole, for those kids. So a lot of wins if you step out and try it. If you feel like you could use one in your area or join in one that's already available. I think a lot of people would be confused too about 18 months. I was interacting with a 2 year old just the other day. Gosh, they're so fun, you know, they're so fun. But the two year old, I just kept dropping her doll and then picking.

[Quince Ad]

It back up and dropping the doll.

[Ginny Urch]

And picking it back up and it was just over and over again. You know, they're learning through rep, through repetition. Some people would probably think, well, 18 months, that's got to be too young. What are the little toddlers doing out in the woods?

[Libby Palmer]

You'd be amazed. They're so capable and I've had tiny ones arrive in the most giddy, cute little wellies and they, they stomp over there. They're so game and they, they may play with sticks and leaves. They might play. We have little PlayStations set up so it could be sand, it could be soil. There may be diggers and dumpers, there may be simple craft activities. We've got a beautiful setup we do in the autumn with pumpkins and they have tiny little hammers and golf tees that they can use for, for bashing into the pumpkins. They explore the site. We've got a fairly steep slope and when they initially come, watching them navigate down that is, is quite interesting. But within a few weeks they, they're so much more short footed, they're so much more adventurous. They'll explore further. Yeah. To watch you literally watch them grow and develop and just blossom week by week by week.

[Ginny Urch]

I think that's also a win if you are a timber nook provider or you're someone who works with timber nook. If you're one of the adults. I just found that it was so endearing to sort of be in the background and watch. I mean it's, it's kind of how we've done childhood, but it's, it's that reminder that kids are capable, that we don't have to be quite so worried that this is really fun, that there's some wonderful elements to childhood. So it's just a time where you can calm yourself down a little bit and be fascinated with the Inner workings of a child. I mean, that's gotta be cool. I'm sure you've seen like you talked about the pulley system. They came up with it out of nothing, moving these buckets of water. I mean, I'm sure you've just seen some of the most elaborate cool things that just remind you, remind you of the amazing capacity of a child to.

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Learn and to grow.

[Ginny Urch]

And so that's another win too. I think we need those reminders in a world that's filled with technology, that our kids have it, they have what it takes. And if you have a big fulfilling day, that's going to carry them in to the next day. And I think it's a good reminder too that the little kids, because Angela talks about in her book, even the first year of life is really important. I think there's a whole chapter dedicated to year one, you know, for the, for the baby. Because a lot of times people think that they should wait. They're waiting until the kid is three or four or five to start playing outside. But it's going to benefit them starting at a really young age in infancy and that the 18 month old, you know, is going to come stomping in their boots and join in and it gives a parent a chance to, like you said, catch their breath, maybe have a full conversation. When you've got a toddler around, you don't hardly ever finish a conversation. So what a wonderful, wonderful thing to help moms. That's a really big thing that you're doing, Libby, is to help facilitate those relationships in those community. I just think it's so wonderful. How can we support you? I think what you're doing is so important. How can we support you? How can we support your location? What could people listening do to help support Timbernook?

[Libby Palmer]

I think if everybody could just spread the word in whatever way they can with whatever contacts they have, social media. I think everybody that's got kids of any age need to know about you and they need to know about Timbernook. And yeah, I just ask anybody listening if you've got contacts or you're perhaps not local to me in the uk, but you know people that are, yeah, put my name out there, put it out there for the world to see and to hear.

[Ginny Urch]

Well Libby, this has been such a treat. I was so delighted to meet you. You are delightful. It was so fun to spend that time together. The conference was fantastic. There was all sorts of speakers and activities for everyone to connect and to share ideas. So like you talk about, there's a lot of support there. Angela is wonderful. It really was. It was such a treat to meet you in person and I'm so thankful that you came on to share all of this. You know how it ends. It always ends with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[Libby Palmer]

Gosh, I have thought this through a million times over, and my kids and I talk about it all the time. Having listened to your podcast together, it's a hard one because I spent most of my childhood outside. But I think for me, one of the greatest memories was we used to be allowed to take time off school when we were sheep shearing on the farm, and we used to go and round up the sheep on our ponies, bring them in, and we were very much part of the sheep shearing process. There was always like an afternoon tea. We'd have groups of generally guys, but sometimes girls too, from New Zealand that would come in as a team to shear the sheep. And yeah, that was a big day. Day each year, and quite possibly one of my best childhood memories.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow, that's really unique. You rode ponies.

[Libby Palmer]

Yep.

[Ginny Urch]

And rounded up sheep and then you would have tea.

[Libby Palmer]

Yep.

[Ginny Urch]

What a cool family.

[Libby Palmer]

We. I am very, very blessed. I've had incredible opportunities, privileges, most of which have been outside.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow. Wow, Libby, this has been such a wonderful conversation and I'm so glad that we had it and I'm sure that we'll stay in touch. Thank you so, so much for being here.

[Libby Palmer]

We have done two. I've written it down here, 21, 31 and a half hours outside last year, so.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow.

[Libby Palmer]

I know. Absolutely amazing. Three years ago, we did it for the first time and we did way over a thousand. I didn't clock it up last year, and then this year, just gone. I said to the boys, let's aim for 1500 and, yeah, done 21, 31.

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And a half hours.

[Libby Palmer]

And I. Honestly, my mum listens to your podcast, my sisters listen to your podcast, and you have no idea the impact you have. You are truly amazing and you've totally changed my. My day to day life, my future. I. I have so much to thank you for, Libby. I. I love your passion for Jesus. I love the fact you're brave. I love the fact you put it out there. You. Yeah. In 213 episodes, there's been one or two that have not been so relevant to me, but I have. I have learned so much. And if I had one wish, I'd. I'd love to go back to the very beginning and parent. All of my kids, knowing what I know now. You are an absolute godsend, Libby.

[Ginny Urch]

Thank you. Aww. Well, I'm so, so honored that we've connected. What a treat. Please tell your whole family that I said hello. Do they know that you're gonna have an episode? Did you keep your surprise or do they know?

[Libby Palmer]

My sister has got my boys. In fact, they're out in the woods on. On the other farm, the other side of the village. And I did tell my mum earlier because I wanted her to pray for me. Oh, yes. Yeah, my mom and my sisters know, but I haven't told anybody else and I'm. I'm not going to tell the boys. I'm just gonna. We listen to you a lot in the car. Yeah. So I'm just gonna put the episode on and see how long it takes them to register. But it's me.

[Ginny Urch]

I'm so excited about this. Libby. What an honor. It's an honor to know you and thank you. Thank you for taking your time. I mean, people are going to be really, really impacted by this. And I know that it's getting everyone's wheel spinning on the part that they play because I think it matters, the part that we play for protecting play for kids. So thank you. Thank you to everyone. I said hi.

[Libby Palmer]

I will. Thank you. It's an absolute pinch me moment and a life dream and such a privilege to speak to you. Thank you so much.