1KHO 443: I Want to Exercise But... | Katy Bowman and Diana Hill

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Episode: 1KHO 443: I Want to Exercise But... | Katy Bowman and Diana Hill
Release Date: March 10, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Connection

In the inaugural moments of Episode 443, host Jenny Urch warmly welcomes returning guest Katie Bowman and introduces new guest Diana Hill. Jenny expresses her admiration for both Katie and Diana, highlighting their extensive contributions to movement and psychology through their numerous books. The camaraderie among the guests sets a collaborative tone for the episode.

Notable Quote:
Jenny Urch [00:48]: "Katie, I think I've told you this before, but you were the first podcast guest I ever had on that, like, made me seem really cool to my friends."

Overview of the Book: "I Know I Should Exercise, but..."

The heart of the episode revolves around the collaborative book "I Know I Should Exercise, but: 44 Reasons We Don't Move and How to Get Over Them" by Katie Bowman and Diana Hill. Jenny introduces the book, emphasizing its relevance in addressing common barriers to movement and exercise.

Notable Quote:
Jenny Urch [03:18]: "The book is called I Know I Should Exercise, but: 44 Reasons We Don't Move and How to Get Over Them. Obviously, there's so many things that you could write books about, and the two of you have written so many things over the years."

Personal Stories and Barriers to Exercise

Jenny shares her personal struggles with maintaining an exercise routine amidst a busy household. She highlights specific challenges, including a sedentary husband, limited space, and the demands of raising three young children.

Jenny's Struggles Include:

• Limited Space: Only one small living room makes it difficult to set up exercise equipment.
• Spousal Influence: Her husband's preference for lounging and watching TV creates a conflicting environment.
• Parental Responsibilities: Managing clingy toddlers and finding time for personal movement.

Notable Quotes:
Jenny Urch [05:47]: "My husband is sitting on the couch, and that's all I want to do, too."
Jenny Urch [10:08]: "It was a very big marital struggle and still to this day is definitely something that we're not super aligned on."

Psychological Barriers and Solutions

Katie Bowman and Diana Hill delve into the psychological aspects that hinder exercise. They discuss how environmental cues, personal motivations, and self-perception play crucial roles in one's ability to stay active.

Key Points Discussed:

• Understanding Motivations: Exploring why movement is important beyond just physical benefits.
• Overcoming Psychological Blocks: Addressing feelings of embarrassment and the desire to align with a partner's habits.
• Flexibility in Approach: Encouraging adaptable movement routines that fit individual lifestyles.

Notable Quote:
Katie Bowman [07:45]: "There's something deeper in there, which is your care for your husband and wanting to also be aligned with him."

The "So What" Muscle Concept

A significant portion of the conversation introduces the concept of the "so what" muscle, a mental tool to counteract feelings of embarrassment or self-consciousness during movement.

Concept Explanation:

• So What Muscle: A mental prompt to dismiss negative self-judgments or fears of others' perceptions.
• Application: Using this muscle to push through discomfort and maintain a consistent movement routine.

Notable Quotes:
Jenny Urch [49:30]: "Flex a so what muscle."
Diana Hill [52:17]: "I just say, so what? Who cares if I don't match everyone else? It's fine."

Perception of Time and Exercise Benefits

Katie Bowman references research from UCLA by Cassie Holmes, explaining how exercise can alter one's perception of time, making individuals feel more affluent with their time.

Research Insights:

• Time Affluence: Exercising can lead to the feeling of having more spare time rather than less.
• Neuroscience Perspective: Increased blood flow to the brain during exercise expands perceptual experiences.

Notable Quote:
Jenny Urch [31:10]: "When research participants spent time exercising, they end up feeling like they have more spare time, not less."

Overcoming Embarrassment and Modeling Movement

The guests discuss the social pressures and embarrassment associated with exercising in public or unconventional settings, such as sports games. They emphasize the importance of modeling active behavior despite potential judgments.

Strategies Shared:

• Public Movement: Encouraging movement during events, like walking laps at sports games.
• Healthy Deviance: Embracing behaviors that deviate from the norm to promote personal well-being.
• Positive Reinforcement: Demonstrating movement to inspire others, especially children, to stay active.

Notable Quotes:
Katie Bowman [46:12]: "There is no one that's ever died of embarrassment."
Diana Hill [43:24]: "There's no reason you have to take your game sitting down in a chair."

Conclusion and Future Collaborations

As the discussion winds down, Jenny reflects on the profound impact of the book on her personal life and expresses her enthusiasm for future collaborations with Katie and Diana. The guests also contemplate a potential series of books addressing various aspects of intentional movement and overcoming barriers in different life contexts.

Notable Quote:
Jenny Urch [57:14]: "These are all things that people had sent into you over the years. These are the common ones. And I really appreciate it. This is a book that really is helping me."

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Final Thoughts:

Episode 443 of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast provides a deep dive into the multifaceted barriers that prevent individuals from engaging in regular movement and exercise. Through personal anecdotes, psychological insights, and practical strategies, hosts and guests offer a comprehensive guide to overcoming these challenges. The collaborative effort between Katie Bowman and Diana Hill underscores the importance of aligning movement with personal values and fostering an adaptable, flexible approach to maintaining an active lifestyle.

Transcript

[Jenny Urch]

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[Katie Bowman]

Here we go.

[Jenny Urch]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and super cool Katie Bowman is back with us. Woohoo. And a new friend, Diana Hill. Welcome to you both.

[Diana Hill]

Thanks for having me back and for my friend Diana too.

[Katie Bowman]

Thank you.

[Jenny Urch]

Yes, I'd love to hear how you two connected and met. But before I say that, I just want to say that Katie, I think I've told you this before, but you were the first podcast guest I ever had on that, like, made me seem really cool to my friends.

[Diana Hill]

Where are these friends?

[Jenny Urch]

They're here in Michigan. And they were like, you had Katie Bowman.

[Diana Hill]

You made it.

[Jenny Urch]

Yes.

[Diana Hill]

You finally made it.

[Jenny Urch]

Yes, I have. So it has been such an honor to get, to get to know you. I love all your books. I have a huge stack of them. I've read many, many of them. You have ones about foot pain, you have ones about raising kids and getting them outside. And Diana, you've got so many things that you've done. So I mean, just book after book after book. And it just says, I mean, I have days where I'm like getting up and down off the ground. My kids are like, what are you doing? I was like, the ground is the most underutilized piece of exercise equipment. When I walk under door frames, I raise my arms. I mean, it's all the things I've learned. So much. So anyway, just really, really honored to have you back and Diana to meet you. Where did the two of you connect?

[Katie Bowman]

Well, we connected in the same way, Ginny, that I think you connected with Katie, which was my love of Katie's work. I started listening to Katie's podcast when I had a toddler and a little baby and everything was kind of thrown, you know, out in terms of the way I was moving my body and she introduced my husband and I started crawling on the floor with our toddler. We started, you know, lifting our toddler and passing back and forth and figuring out ways to move our bodies that didn't involve us having to leave and go to the gym for an hour and then come back and feel like I was away from my baby, which I really didn't want to be, and also a way to connect with my husband. So I followed Katie for a long time, and then she came on my podcast, and we became friends, and then we started engaging more in this way of talking about this intersection of our minds and our movement and how our biomechanics influence our psychology and our psychology influences our biomechanics. So. So it was in a similar way of. Katie made me cooler, I guess, but she influenced my life first.

[Diana Hill]

More moved. Anyway. More moved. I don't know about cooler, but yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

So does this mean that there is a chance that I could write a book with you?

[Diana Hill]

Katie, you never know. Like, I don't really know how the Internet works, but I have just met people through the Internet, and then all of a sudden, they're at my house. So it's an amazing tool.

[Jenny Urch]

But, yeah, just that would raise my status even more.

[Diana Hill]

I'm texting you from Katie's bathroom right now.

[Jenny Urch]

There we go. There we go. Well, Diane, but you're also. Diana, you're also PhD, so I am a little bit. Not quite at that spot yet. Clinical psychologist and an internationally recognized expert in acceptance and commitment, therapy and compassion. And so you weave all of that through this book, too. Just that compassionate side and how we talk to ourself. And so the way that the two of you wove this together is fantastic. So here's what the book is called. It's called I Know I Should Exercise, but, oh, it grabs you. Because everyone says that. Everyone says that. 44 reasons we don't Move and How to Get Over Them. Obviously, there's so many things that you could write books about, and the two of you have written so many things over the years. What made you decide on this one?

[Diana Hill]

Well, like Diana was saying, she had come into my life, and I had had her on my podcast a couple of times because I've written a lot of books about the nuts and bolts of movement, but never the thought patterns behind movement. And so I wanted to pick her brain about. I think originally it was, how can I get my kids moving more? That's something that I get quite often. And then just in talking about it, I ask her another question, like, well, what about this? Or what about that? Things that weren't about where arms and legs should be. Things that weren't about pain or injury, but they were the. Maybe the most important things going on with our body. I think of the mind as part of the body that keep us from moving. So I had just asked her, after watching her beautifully, she had done a really great podcast about getting kids, teens moving work. She had helped me through my own barrier. And I was like, I pitched this book idea to her, like, what if we did a book breaking down a lot of barriers in the way that you're. So Diana's very fluent and fast and friendly in her hearing and response to what someone is saying about why they can't move. So we just put it into book form.

[Jenny Urch]

I love the idea. I mean, it's one of the ones in, you know, when you're a podcaster, you get a lot of books in the mail. And so, like, you put them on yourself or when the person's gonna come on and, you know, read it. But when I got this one, I was like, oh, like, this is really intriguing to me now. It's a very pertinent thing that people think. And so you talk about this is. I wanna walk you through my story of. I know I should exercise, but. And then we can talk about some specifics. There was one. You know, it's like 44 reasons to help you move through them. And there was one in particular that really stuck out to me that was very intriguing. But what you talk about, basically, is that exercise, the word exercise, is relatively new, that people just used to move. And so we didn't have to exercise and carve this hour out or 45 minutes out of the day. And so it becomes this situation where there's a lot of barriers. So I'm going to walk through mine. You can kind of maybe give me some advice. And the things that I found were in your book. So I grew up exercising. We did Richard Simmons Sweating to the Oldies, and I loved it. I like the dance. That's still my thing. I like the dance movements and just moving to the music. I did it with my mom and we had one of those ski machines, a Nordic track. So I grew up, you know, starting in about middle school, moving my body. Then when I got older, there was a lifetime fitness gym, which. Those are incredible. You feel like you could never leave. I mean, there's like, you can get your haircut and you can buy your food, and I'm like, I could just stay here my whole life, you know. So it was, you know, end of high school, going into college, I was able to afford it. It was just me. I was still living at home. And then I got married and my husband Bless him. Didn't move, so he didn't grow. I don't know. I'm. I won't throw out any judgments, but his sort of M.O. was that he would work from 7 to 3, and we both had the same shift as he worked at the sheriff's department and I was as a teacher. And when we came home from work at about the same time, he would sit on the couch and watch Seinfeld reruns like, the whole rest of the day. And I really struggled with moving when someone else isn't. I could not get over that barrier because all I wanted to do was sit on the couch as well. And so I know I should exercise, but my husband is sitting on the couch, and that's all I want to do, too. And there's no spot for me to do my Richard Simmons sweating with the oldies because we're in this small house and there's only one tv. How do I get over that?

[Diana Hill]

I love that. I love that. Well, Diana, do you want to start with that? Because I can see your twinkle in your eye.

[Katie Bowman]

Well, I love that in so many different ways because it's such a common experience, right, for people. And there's. There's environmental, contextual stuff, and then there's psychological stuff. And our instinct is to go straight to the. Why don't you bring the machine into your living room and do that next to him, and that will make it easier for you to move. But I hear something deeper in there, which is your care for your husband and wanting to also be aligned with him and wanting to, you know, maybe this is like, okay, you're really sweet.

[Jenny Urch]

I was just lazy.

[Katie Bowman]

I don't know. Okay, so there's another thing, and it.

[Jenny Urch]

Was a really small room. So it's like, I tried. I tried so many things. Like, I got a rebounder, and then it broke, and it, like, flung one of the things against the wall. This feels dangerous. It could, you know, and it was awkward because it's really hard to move when other people. Maybe this sounds like a huge excuse or very lazy. It's hard to move when someone else is sitting. I think you're just. Because that's really what you want to do. Anyway. So, anyway, you're very nice to say that it was concern for my husband.

[Katie Bowman]

I was giving you too much.

[Jenny Urch]

You were giving me an out.

[Katie Bowman]

You wanted to connect your husband. But what I'm hearing there then is something else, which is you are having certain thoughts about moving while somebody else is moving. There's sort of a. It's really hard. So is it really hard? Because tell me more why it's really hard. Like, is it that hard?

[Jenny Urch]

Because I think that our bent is to sit and veg out. Like I think that, you know, when you come home from a day at work and I was a teacher so I was exhausted and I, you know, there's always other things you have to do and there's emails you have to answer and papers you have to grade and so I'm tired already and I, you know, that's life, right? Like I was tired when I went to school but I would come home and move when, you know, I would come home. We have this small house. It's just one little living room that's the only space to be and he's sitting on the couch with a, you know, a bowl of chips and some salsa watching television. And I mean like I could have gone outside and walked or I could have. I. But I couldn't like get over it because so then what I did, it was like I just fell into the sitting on the couch as well and so maybe I would grade papers or maybe I would whatever but I mean it was a, it was a very big marital struggle and still to this day is definitely something that we're not super aligned on. Here's all my personal business I know so I'll have more after this.

[Diana Hill]

Well, I have a couple of thoughts. Is one, it seems like maybe you took his habit as a permission to sit down where in a house where there's more movers or other people doing moving. Maybe you didn't have permission to not be moving. So it was maybe your own internal motivation to move hadn't been developed yet because your family had been holding your motivation to move and then you go into a spot where you don't have that external pressure to move because that's not the habit of the house. And then also you're transitioning to becoming a full time worker. Did you get married and start your job kind of around the same?

[Jenny Urch]

No, I mean that's the thing. Like I had worked. I love the book. I know I should exercise but I had worked a full year as a teacher and I stayed home. I was like living with my parents so I still went to the gym and then, you know, you get married and I guess it's, it's an interesting thing. I think it's something that probably we should have talked about ahead of time which is what is our life going to look like from 3 to 9? Alistair Humphreys talks about that like Those are hours that are important, and we hadn't talked them through. And he came from a family where he. You just turn the TV on. Like, as soon as you get home, the TV's on. And I did not come from a family like that. And, you know, I. We. You know, everybody has their marital things. You know, I try. I try to work through it, and it just. It was too big of a hill, I feel like, for me to climb over. And so it just defaulted into his habits instead of mine, partially because I think that the habit to move is a harder habit.

[Diana Hill]

Mm.

[Jenny Urch]

Have I stumped you?

[Katie Bowman]

I think there's. I think this is a complex one. So the way that I would organize this when I'm. If I were working with you, like you were a client in my office is I would want to look at six different things in terms of your psychology. So I'd want to look at your. Why do you want to move? Because I'm hearing in there, I like to dance. I have done it as a thing that I've done my whole life. But the sort of. The. What does movement actually give you?

[Diana Hill]

Deep.

[Katie Bowman]

Especially as a teacher, you know, how does movement benefit you on a deep level of being a teacher or being a partner or being, you know, sound like you didn't have kids at that time. That would be one question. Like, your deeper motivation.

[Jenny Urch]

I love it. I mean, I really like that. Like, put on Bye Bye Bye, and I'm going to dance that whole song. I mean, I am. I know the moves, I like it, and I feel really good. And there's a lot of cool dance things out there. But, like, it's embarrassed. This is part of your book. It's embarrassing to do that in front of someone who's trying to watch Seinfeld.

[Katie Bowman]

Right, Right. So then the other five things have to do with. Okay, what gets in the way with you doing that thing that you love. And one of them may be it's embarrassing. So that kind of sort of the thought process around what do people think? Right. Or what does he think? Or what is he. You know, he's your. All the thoughts that are going on in your head while you're doing your dancing to Bye Bye Bye. That could be a barrier. Another barrier is that I heard in. There is. And I'm married to a teacher, too, so I know teachers are on their feet all day. So he's like. He's out. Like, you're just. You are. You actually are moving a lot in your day when you're a teacher. And at the end of your day, you may need a different type of movement than being on your feet. And the couch looks really good because you're, you know. So there may be also like a physical discomfort that your body was calling for or needing at the end of the day. And maybe. I don't know if dancing would be. Maybe it is it, but maybe be also something else to explore some creativity around that. And then the other aspects of it are things like your own ideas and sense of self around what is it, what counts to move. Right. So Katie has all of this great work around ways in which maybe you could be interacting, interacting with your husband and doing Seinfeld. Maybe it's not on the couch, but maybe it would be on the floor or maybe in other ways to move your body that we just don't think about when the couch is available. So that kind of flexibility as well as. So we think about our values, we think about our thoughts, we think about our feelings, we think about our sense of self and our identity. And we also have to think about just the here and now, like kind of getting present with movement in itself. What would sort of that. I listened to your episode on the Left Brain, Right Brain Guy. It was so good. And like that kind of tuning in with the body rather than the head. And like in the here and now, what is my body asking in terms of movement? And then actually making a committed action plan around it, planning ahead of time as opposed to deciding in the moment. So those are some of the things we talk about in the book as these different psychological things that go into that decision. And it's not. It's not so simple as just coming home and dancing.

[Jenny Urch]

I really liked the phrase that you used, Katie, habit of the household. Actually, that really makes me think about my own kids and like, what is the habit of the household? And for my parents, it included movement. And to this day, I think my dad walks like 20,000 steps a day. I'm like, who are you? You know, it's like there's sometimes it's more. I'm like, what are you doing? And he's retired. So, you know, they. My parents have built a life of movement and have really given that example and did when we were kids and it was just kind of fun and something that we did. And so. But I've never really thought about it in terms of my own household. And I also think that I would probably give advice to my kids that before they got married or moved in with a roommate or something like that, to have a plan for that. Like how you kind of think like, oh, this has been a really easy thing for me. I've been doing it for, you know, seven, eight, nine years in a row or whatever. And then you get into a different environment and it can really squash whatever motivation you have or sort of the habits that you had. And so anyway, that's this is really good.

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[Jenny Urch]

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[Diana Hill]

Well, I had something sort of. Sort of similar. And a lot of like, there's 44 reasons in this book. But the last question that you gave is really a blend of four different reasons, aspects of four different reasons. And I would say this one is similar in that way. So for me, I had to figure out how to get my exercise time, the movement time that I really wanted to myself to do what I wanted to do, to do the things that I couldn't do with kids before they.

[Jenny Urch]

Woke up, but they're up all night. Well, okay, so it's a period of time where you're like, there is no before or after.

[Diana Hill]

Well, like, really, really, truly, like, not even a half an hour.

[Jenny Urch]

I had one that didn't sleep through the night till she was four.

[Diana Hill]

Yeah, right.

[Jenny Urch]

That would be me.

[Diana Hill]

So you were exhausted. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And you know what? Here's the thing. I mean, if the advice that I would tell myself, probably I can answer my own question in retrospect.

[Diana Hill]

That's great.

[Jenny Urch]

The advice I would tell myself, first of all, is I wish I would have known more about rucking. I think that we did a ton of getting outside with our babies, but, like, I would check if I tracked my steps. It was like we'd gone 600ft I mean, I've been outside all day. You know, I think I'm getting in all my movement. But mostly little kids are like grabbing bugs and they're super slow. And so they loved being in the pack. And so if I knew then, like, I learned from Michael Easter and from you, if I knew then how good rucking was, I would have made a habit to do that more. And also, it really is just a season. It does end. When you're in the middle of it, you feel like it's not gonna end. So, you know the part where you're not sleeping or. I mean, it may be years and years long, but it does end at some point.

[Diana Hill]

Yeah. Walking with kids is excellent exercise, and I think that we maybe overly focus on kids being in their crib or laying down to take their nap, but there's no reason that they cannot take their nap on you while you're moving. You know, if you have a rigid sort of thought process around what their nap time looks, needs to look like, you could let that go. That would be some flexibility there. And just. Yeah, you're the rocking queen. Pack them up. Pack all three kids up and go for a walk and feel really good about it.

[Jenny Urch]

Now I'm doing it with a backpack that costs $100 and I buy the $20 plate. I'm like, can I borrow someone's baby? Like, why didn't I do this? I wish I would have known that. Because they did love to be in the carrier and I did front and back. You know, I'm fine to do that. And they would. They were happy as a clam. Is that a saying? I don't know. But they were so happy to be in there. Okay, I'm on to my next one. I know I should exercise, but now this is one that's current. Obviously, I have so many things to do, so I have an issue. I like to walk and sometimes my kids walk with me and they talk about things I'm not interested in. So I just. Here comes all my secrets. So I. My. Ideally, I would love to walk and, like, listen to music or listen to a podcast or something, audiobook. But I'm fine. I find a walk and they're going to talk to me about their things or occasionally. Now I can scoot away. They're a little. They're older. Like, they're way older. They're like teens. So I, you know, I can scoot away, but while I'm walking. And I didn't feel this when I was like a teenager myself or, you Know, when I was exercising, all I'm thinking about is all the things that I'm not getting done, and it's like, really stresses me out, and so I have a hard time with that. So I know I should exercise, but it's taking away time from all these other things I need to be doing.

[Diana Hill]

Diana, you want to jump into that one? Because I feel like there's some values work maybe, or actually where my mind.

[Katie Bowman]

Went to in that is that I think that walking can be one of the most restful experiences that we can take, especially if we allow our mind to focus on our walk. You know, when. If we can see the plants and we can find a little blooming, things are just starting to bloom right this spring, find a little new bloom, or there's certain trees that I want to go towards and walk around, because I love that tree. And when you're in your head thinking about all the things that you have to do, you're missing out on not only the benefit of the walk, right? Just getting the chance to get out and walk, but the mental benefit and the restorative benefit of letting your mind be with what's here, including your kids. You know, and so this is just the nature of the human mind is it loves to, like, go into all this. It loves to. It's really good at problem solving. It has huge swaths of the brain that are devoted to creating images and problem and mental forecasting and doing all of this kind of work. But it is work. It's effortful. And then it sounds like your walk is now becoming effortful because you're in your head while you're on your walk. And it could be as simple as making a commitment to yourself that this walk is my mental rest. And so in my mental rest, I get to. I mean, where do you like to walk? What's your. Do you have a.

[Jenny Urch]

Do you have. Yeah, this is the most interesting podcast ever. Okay, maybe not only to me. Okay. There is a subdivision, so we're on a little hobby farm. So there's no really place good to walk here. But like, across the street there's this. It's a one mile loop. It's so perfect. But also it says it's private. There's like a big sign that says private road. The people are nice and they wave. But I'm always kind of worried about that, too. I'm like, am I allowed to be here? I've tried to Google it. I don't really know.

[Diana Hill]

Ask someone.

[Katie Bowman]

Yeah, I would ask.

[Diana Hill]

You know what I mean? Like, if this is, if this is something that's sitting in your mind all the time that's really stressing you out about your walk, I would just take a second to go ask someone.

[Jenny Urch]

That's a good idea. You know, and you're so smart.

[Diana Hill]

Free yourself up of that stress of every time you take that walk. Just ask someone.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. So anyways, it's a one mile loop. It's great. I mean, I, I would love to. You know, I'll do it sometimes I'll do three loops or four loops and it's great. But I mean, I do feel like then sometimes I'm up late finishing the things that I didn't get done because I took that time to do the walk. So, I mean, that is something that I definitely struggle with.

[Diana Hill]

When you finish your work, do you feel like, like if, if you had done your work during that time, would you just be saying, man, I got my work done and. But I didn't get the walk done that I needed to get done. Like, do you have the same hierarchy around work? Right. So. So one to you is a need to, and one is sort of like a birthday party. It's like extra.

[Jenny Urch]

Well, I feel like what I'm choosing is between that and sleep.

[Diana Hill]

Well, I guess I'm just saying you have an hour and you either choose to do work or you choose to move. They're equally necessary, but you would feel bad about taking the walk and not doing the work, but not bad about doing the work and not taking the walk. So to me, I hear that you don't have them in the same category of need.

[Jenny Urch]

That's true. I would say that's true.

[Diana Hill]

You feel justified letting one go, but not the other. So I, I would invite you to look at how you. Your hierarchy of needs, I guess, in your mind and why they are that way.

[Jenny Urch]

Well, and that's really tricky. I actually think that's a really good point, Katie, because I, I mean, at this point, you know, we've got five kids, so I'm like, work is above my walk. I mean. But I also hear what you're saying too, and it's in the book, which is like taking care of yourself is taking care of others. But in the, in today, as today goes, that's a tricky toss up.

[Katie Bowman]

So here's, here's the question that I would add to that is how does your walk impact your work? I find that if I'm trying to push through a day of eight hours of work, somewhere in that day my mind is going to Become less focused. I'm going to find myself all of a sudden I'm supposed to be working right now, but I'm scrolling right now. Or I'm supposed to be working right now, but I'm getting up and back to the refrigerator 10 times. What is that about? And it's because I probably need to move my body and I probably need a mental break. And if I were to do that one mile loop and come back, I may get more done in the next hour, maybe even double done in the next hour than I would have done if I had just kept on pushing through. So I also think if work is a high value like that, you being focused and being productive at work and you have five kids and sleep sounds like it's really important too. And we know there's a connection between movement and sleep. You're going to sleep better, not only fall asleep better, you're going to have deeper sleep, you're going to have more restorative sleep if you move. So you can have sort of like this poor sleep, you know, interrupted sleep. Or you could have really high quality sleep, maybe need less sleep if you go for that mile. So I would connect it to the thing that's important to you rather than us saying, well, movement's good for you. Because that's actually something Katie and I were trying to not do. Because that's what everyone is saying, is movements good.

[Diana Hill]

We know, we know it. We know.

[Katie Bowman]

If, if for you, Jenny, work is like super important to you right now, like it's really important, then I would want to know. I would, I would almost do like a self assessment. Self test.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Katie Bowman]

Ab, A, B design. On day A, don't go for that walk. See how creative, how efficient I am at my work. And then on day B, go for the walk and compare and test for yourself.

[Jenny Urch]

I love that you put that in the book because you were like, if saying it's good for you hasn't worked already, it's probably not going to work anyway.

[Diana Hill]

It's something that's not your reason.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, it's not your reason. That's good. Okay, enough about me. Now that everybody knows all of my deep dark secrets. Actually, the thing that. So this book goes through motivation and it goes through time and it goes through if you're embarrassed and if you're uncomfortable, you don't like to sweat, you don't. If you are feel stuck to the screen, if there's environment challenges, all these different types of things. So you go through these 44 reasons and they are very Very relatable. The sentence says, if the data on exercise hasn't motivated you yet, it never will. So that's a good reframe. I really like that, Diana. How does it connect to the thing that's important to you? So here's the one that really stuck out to me. When research participants spent time exercising, they end up feeling like they have more spare time, not less. Yeah, that doesn't really make sense.

[Katie Bowman]

This comes from work at UCLA by Cassie Holmes, who studies time and our perception of time. That really. Our perception of time is malleable. And when you. When there's all sorts of things. Actually, when people are generous, they feel like they have more time as well. It's kind of interesting. So when you're generous, when you are exercising, you feel like you have more time. And it kind of makes sense probably from like a neuroscience brain perspective as well, because when you're exercising, you're changing. You're actually changing your brain. You're putting more blood, you know, more blood flow into your brain. So you probably are having a more expanded experience or perception of what's happening. And I find that just from a. I don't know, just a personal experience of movement. I don't know if you feel that too, Katie, but sometimes I feel my time gets really constricted when I'm in front of a screen for a really long time and working for a long time on something really close up. And when we're out and we're moving our bodies, our perception of things expands. And we may feel more free and spacious in our lives, feel like we have more time.

[Diana Hill]

Well, you know, I just did. I walked across England. I did this hundred mile trek that took a week. And I could feel my perception of time is a sense. It's a sense that we have. We've got more than five senses. And when I was physically paying attention to things, moving past my eyes to the light, changing over the course of the day, when I was sort of liberated from transitions, transitions of thought. That's sort of Cal Newport's work. When you're doing a lot of, you know, tasks, you're doing these micro transitions and there's time lost. There's time lost in the transition. Especially when you're trying to multitask and do a bunch of things. There is time where there's very little doing except switching between the different. Maybe in front of the computer or at your desk tasks. So I could not believe how long the days were when I was on this walk. I could feel like it felt Like a day was three times as long. And that's what I was saying as I was doing it. I'm like, I can't believe it's only been this period of time because I'm pretty good at predicting the passage of time when I'm working. But there, when I was in a different container, there was more time. It felt like there was more time. And then if we go back to Cal Newport stuff, I was filling all of my time with doing rather than filling a lot of my time with transitioning between tasks. Sort of like driving. But in your brain, you're like, I'm driving here, I'm driving there. But there was no task actually being worked on.

[Jenny Urch]

I really like that. I would say that for me, in my particular stage of life, I was like, I want that. I want to feel like there's more spare time, not less. You wrote 30 minutes a day. Increased feelings of time, affluence. I've never even heard that phrase. So to me, that was like something I really grabbed out because it's counterintuitive. And if it does work, and obviously, like you said, Diana, there's these studies on it, then that would actually be something that would tie into my work or the things I have to get done very, very nicely. So I like that. So it's like you go through all of these different excuses that people would have, and then you bring up all of these different counterpoints or things that maybe people haven't thought about to help them find the motivation. Besides, this is good for you. So it's a very, very valuable book. I know I should exercise, but.

[Unknown]

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[Katie Bowman]

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[Jenny Urch]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. I loved this. Katie, you have rules for your studio. I thought this was huge, that you could come late or leave early as long as you're not disruptive. And there's like this allowance for that. And I thought, okay, so here's another thing I did. I've tried all sorts of things, so this is great. I love the book. There is a little gym. We live in a little town, but in the little. There's like a teeny little downtown. There's a gym like it's called, it's like a crossfitty type thing. And I joined mainly more for the sake of. It's really close and I just want to get back into the habit of setting aside time for this. I don't care how well I do. I don't care how well I sweat. If people go and run 16 laps around the building, I'm okay if I walk 10. You know, it was just. It was about like I'd fallen out of the habit. I just want to get back into the habit. And they were kind of picky. Like, you know, you'd be doing these punches and like some people are holding weights and I'm like, I don't want to hold a weight. You know, I haven't spent time doing this in a long time and I just want to. But they'd be like, here's. And they put it in your hand. Anyway. I quit because I was annoyed. They were so. I feel like they were bossing me and I wasn't ready to be boss. And it wasn't my. It wasn't my intention. My. Like my. My goal was just to like, start to sort of hold the space for it and slowly. Because also I was. This is in your book too. I was like, annoyed because I used to be more fit. There's like a lot of things going on. So I love that in your studio you talk about how there's flexibility and that the whole book talks about psychological flexibility, but that it doesn't have to be like what everyone else says. It has to be like you have to hold a 1 pound weight. It has to be 55 minutes and all of that. So can you sort of give an overview of that? It's a different perspective, I think, than a lot of people hold.

[Diana Hill]

Well, in that section of the book, we were really trying to help people. It's very much like you're feeling worried about going to a space because you don't know if you're okay. It's like to ask or to communicate to get rid of that hesitancy. It sounds like you're taking the walk anyway. But for many people, they're not going into movement spaces because, I mean, one, because they're afraid of exactly what you just said, that I am going to be forced. No one wants to be forced to do anything, which Diana is really excellent at explaining in the book. We're adults, we don't want to be told what we have to do. And if you're new to a movement space, the idea that you want guidance. But of course, there's a variety of levels. And we could say that the variety of levels is some people hold a 10 pound weight and some people hold a five, and some people hold a one. And also a level is, and I don't hold any weight. And I apologize that that wasn't an option for you. But at my studio, yes, I am very flexible because I know there are so many hurdles to movement. So if someone's like, man, I would really like to take that class, but I know I couldn't get there till 10 minutes after, or I can take this amount of work off, but my work, lunch, shifts, whatever it is, personally for you, there's no way we can make it available to everyone in exactly the same way. So I'm flexible on my end so that my class fits more people. And we both encourage in that section of the book to ask your studio if this is a barrier for you that you ask, like, is there possible to take half a class? Is it possible to come late or leave early and you'll never know until you ask. But we just wanted to empower people to say, you know, there's, there's often flexibility. It sounds like in some cases they're not. But the worst, they, worst thing is they could say no and you can find some other place that has more flexibility.

[Katie Bowman]

Juni, I loved that you said no, I'm not going to hold those weights and do the punches. I mean that sounds just like it would be painful for my back to do some kind of punching with weights. But that you. In doing that. I think there's another aspect to this is you're modeling it to other people. We have to be a little bit kind of like doing the stuff that other people aren't doing. A little weird in the area of exercise. Because actually the thing that is I think contributing to a lot of people not exercising is all the rigidity and rules around what exercise should look like. And I need to be punching with the weights, but my back doesn't, doesn't support that or I'm trying to come in and I want this to be fun and I want to do half a loop. And it's sort of, I kind of equate it. My husband often says, he says they're going to school the smarts right out of you. Is his PhD in education. He's like, they're going to school the smarts right out of our kids. It's that same kind of thing, exercise. Right. Like they're going to like. If we believe some of the messaging around exercise, then we may never actually exercise because it becomes so rigid and overwhelming. And what we're trying to do is open up these boxes here and be advocates for ourselves about what works for us in our lives. Be flexible, maybe approach exercise in a way that we've never. Or actually more movement than exercise than we never have before. And exactly what you did, Jenny, is I want to go in and make it small and have like just get back into this. You're more likely to be successful and be a long time mover like your dad. Right. And especially if you tie it to things like joy because it's something you want to do. You, you, you crave, you like you love. Then you're even more likely to do it. Cause you're getting positive reactions positively reinforced by it. So that it's a. We need to challenge some of those, I think internal belief systems, but also some of the external stuff as well.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. I wanted to not hate it. I think that was like My whole purpose is I want to go, and I don't care about. You know, some of these people at these crossfits are, like, so buff, and I'm like, all I care about is not hating it and getting back into this habit of movement. And so actually, Katie, what I didn't do, because it wasn't that big of a place, I should have just said to whoever owns it or whenever I signed up, this is my purpose, or this is what I'm looking to get out of this. And I wasn't. I wasn't forthright about any of it. I just assumed I could just come in and do what I wanted. So I really like the part where you talk about flexibility. You talked about the history of it, how these workouts started in the 1960s, and now people feel like, well, if I can't fit in this full workout, I'm not gonna do anything. So a ton of this book is about movement minutes and exercise, snacking. And so one of the things that we've been trying is we go to sports games. And this is sort of back to the embarrassment bit, but you go to sports games, and I'm like, I could stand. I could stand on my tippy toes and do some calf things. I could do a quick loop around the school during, you know, in between quarters. And. No, but nobody else is doing that.

[Diana Hill]

Yeah. I wrote a whole article about that on my website of what to do when you're watching your kids at sports games, because it is a massive amount of time, and I think that parents are overwhelmed with all the have to's. And you made it like you're showing up for the game, but there's no reason you have to take your game sitting down in a chair. There are so many exercises. And then, like Diana said, like, you're often standing out because you are. You're going against the grain a little bit. So there's. There's an actual question. There's a reason in that book, too, of, like, I want to do more public movement, but I'm embarrassed. So it's how to deal with that embarrassment. And I find that the more you do it, the more people. Or like, I'm gonna walk laps. I walk laps around the soccer field a lot, and I just ask people, do you want to watch and walk with me? And then when you invite, sometimes you're like, oh, sure, I. There's. So they don't want to. They're embarrassed to join you because they're not sure if that means that they're copying you. Or that would make you uncomfortable now. So people are just unsure and I think tend to stay still so they don't have to deal with the physical discomfort of not knowing what the reaction's gonna be.

[Katie Bowman]

My experience of sports games as well is there's sort of like the family flow of it, because you take your kid to the sports game and they're running around for an hour and a half, and you're sitting for an hour and a half, and then you all get back in the car and you're on these different pathways. Like, now your kidneys wants to go home and do, like, restful, quiet stuff, and you're like, I've been sitting here watching this game for an hour. I want to go move. So. So if we're moving together and I just. I've just embraced. I don't know. There was a certain point in I think maybe having teenagers, too, where I just. I'm just embarrassing. I'm just a walking embarrassment to my children. So I'm going to be embarrassing. I'm like, I am that embarrassing, Mom. I don't bring the. I don't have the chair with the cup holders. I'm like. There's standing, walking, squatting, sometimes stretching, holding onto the baseball fence. And I think it's also sort of being that model that someone's got to do it to break the weirdness of it. And then maybe other people. It's like a lot of things that we do as parents of what works for us. And then other people may try it or may feel like you're opening the door to somebody else to try it, too, and it will be embarrassing. I mean, I think that's the embracing the emotion with it. Like, yeah, this is embarrassing. And I've never met anyone that's died of embarrassment. There's a lot of people that are physically not well, from not moving their bodies, but there's no one that's ever died of embarrassment. What happens with embarrassment is you start to feel embarrassed and you feel more and more embarrassed, and then you feel like, I'm going to die of embarrassment. And then you don't die. And then the embarrassment comes back down again.

[Jenny Urch]

It is a big feeling, though. I like that you said that. It does. It grows and it grows. Yes. Enough to sometimes put you back into your seat or whatever the situation is. I talked to this mom who's all about light, and just very recently. And so she turned.

[Unknown]

She.

[Jenny Urch]

I like this. She puts on the blue light blockers as soon as the sun goes down so that she's in tune with nature and the sun. And then she says even if there's events at her kids school at night, she wears them. So she'd gone to like some parrot night or some band concert and she's got her blue light bloggers, you know, because it's after the sun goes down and her kids are like, mom. She's like, well, whatever. My circadian rhythm is important, so it's good.

[Diana Hill]

Well, we talk about healthy deviants in the book too. It's based on the book, not our book. And there's another book, Healthy Deviant of just that space. Of like when you've found something that works for, for your body or you're trying to take those steps, the opposition is massive. And it's not like anyone is upset with you for wearing the light blockers, except maybe your teenage children, but it's just the feeling that when no one else is doing it, for you to do it is to be passing judgment on other people. Or it's like, what, It's a statement that you're making that maybe feels secret or you don't want to disrupt what other. Like we're so concerned about how everyone else is is perceiving us. Or maybe it's more softer than that where we just don't want to make other people feel bad. Either way, a lot of how we choose to behave has to do with other people who aren't us, who probably don't even care.

[Jenny Urch]

Right. Let me read this. This is really good. This is like right in the spot where you talked about the healthy deviant, which is by Peter something. I don't know. I've got a name written down here, but I think I wrote it down wrong.

[Katie Bowman]

Pilar Gerasimo.

[Diana Hill]

Yeah, Polari.

[Jenny Urch]

I wrote Peter Polar Gerasimo. Most of our spaces are designed, but this is from your part in the book. Most of our spaces are designed to favor sitting. Airport schools, sports venues and meeting rooms cue us to be sedentary. That's really interesting. See, that's what I'm talking about. Like even at the beginning of my marriage, it was like I felt there's a cue. Like the cue is sit and watch the show with me. You know, they cue us to be centered. So people might see you as weird when you choose to pace, stand, stretch, squat, or fidget in these spaces simply because you're behaving differently from how everyone was expecting. But if you follow the default path, it will likely result in a decline in your health and happiness over time. So the fact that stepping Away from the norm can cause anxiety for many of us, this is, you know, contributing to your long term health and happiness over time. And I really like this from the psychology standpoint, Diana, flex the so what muscle. That's good. That's a good little statement to have inside your mind because it's going along with this, but it's also going along with a comparison. Like you talked about this in terms of. I think it actually fits with a lot of it. You know, those people think it's weird because I'm dancing or that whatever. Those people think it's weird that I'm standing at this game. Flex a so what muscle. But you also were talking about this in terms of. There's often a lot of comparison, especially at a gym, in a gym situation, you know, where like, well, there's someone who's faster and someone who's stronger and someone who looks way better and all of these things. I've never heard this before. Flex the so what muscle.

[Katie Bowman]

That was Katie's line, the so what muscle.

[Diana Hill]

Because it doesn't exist. You haven't heard it before Because I. Cause it's. I don't even know if it's accurate. But it's a. What is it actually? What is the so what muscle?

[Katie Bowman]

Yeah, well, I mean, I also. I think of it as. There is principles in psychology of the more that you do something that's uncomfortable, the more comfortable you become with it. And we actually have something in that. I think it was in the healthy deviant section where we. I had people set up a hierarchy of fears. This is a very classic psychological approach to exposure. So if people have an anxiety disorder, like a fear of spiders, you'd set up a hierarchy. Like looking at a picture of a spider, having a spider in the room, holding a spider, having the spider crawl across your chest. Right. That would be the hierarchy. And you would actually, as a therapist, work people through that hierarchy. So what we had people do here is make a hierarchy of fears of moving in public spaces. So it'd be like standing at the back of my meeting, you know, with your. With your husband, you know, just squatting while we watch a show instead of sitting on the couch. And then eventually it may be doing something like jumping jacks in the airport. Like that would be maybe super embarrassing or. But you can create this hierarchy and then you move through it and you actually feel stronger because of it. When I work with folks that have anxiety, approaching the thing that you fear and actually doing it makes you. It's like motivating it's like, wow, I did something hard. Especially if it's aligned with your values and what you care about. So people could create a little hierarchy of fears around being a healthy deviant or being weird with their movement in public spaces. And start as you were doing, Jenny, like being in the exercise class and not using the weights. It's a little, you know, you're a little deviant there. Try it. And then start to move your way up so that it becomes more comfortable for you to move. And it's uncomfortable because we live in a sedentary culture where people aren't moving and it's the norm to not move in this part of this small space. But that's not how it is across our planet, right? So, so moving up that hierarchy of fears.

[Diana Hill]

And I would say the so what is this a tool that I use to maybe stop thought? I'm like a big fan of stopping thoughts. So when that thought comes in, if you're in that, you start to see yourself going to comparison. It's like, oh, look at, look at how I mean, whatever it is about yourself to them. I'm the only one that, you know these big grand statements that you make. I'm the worst. Then it's just like, I just say, so what? You know, we're not gonna die. I'm not gonna die because I'm missing the yoga uniform that I came in. My, you know, I don't have. I don't have the. I don't got the yoga uniform. I. I have the clothes that I want to wear to this. It's all the same moves. So what? Who cares if I don't match everyone else? It's fine.

[Jenny Urch]

Big. Isn't it wild that as an adult, like, you still have all this social pressure and even comparing yourself now to another time, like, that's something that I've struggled with talk about in the book. Oh, my goodness. I used to be able to, you know, do this many stair steps. Or you just say, so what? So what even. And then you talk about even in the fastest group of humans, someone will be the slowest. Even amongst the most coordinated humans, someone. This is like talking. It's all about me. Someone will be the least coordinated, even in the best dressed group. This is the worst one for me. There's going to be a person. I have a typo. I don't even know. Like the worst dressed one, you know, so it's like true. Check, check.

[Katie Bowman]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Why, why wouldn't it be used sometimes actually, then it made me think, well, that's kind of a gift. My gift is that someone else doesn't have to be the slowest. We're stressing coordinated person.

[Diana Hill]

Exactly.

[Jenny Urch]

I'll do it. I'll take the role. So it's good. I like that. I'm using that so what?

[Diana Hill]

So what?

[Jenny Urch]

So what? I'm flexing my so what muscle. Okay. What. Let's say one more topic. This is a fantastic book. It is called I know I should Exercise but by Diana Hill. Katie Bowman. This is gonna be a lot of people. A lot of people who are picking this book up are going to be people who are out of the habit of moving. But they know they wanna move. It makes them feel good. One of the things that you talked about is how it can take. It's sort of like this, predictive. There was a word for it, effective forecasting error. So we generally expect workouts to be less pleasant and more exhausting than they actually are. And then you said it can take about 20 minutes for the feel good chemicals to kick in. But if we haven't been active in a while, it can take a few weeks before moving starts to feel rewarding. And I thought this was really important to know because it might take a while before you. You feel good about it.

[Katie Bowman]

Yeah, there's a lot of things that take a while before we feel good about them. That's actually probably a good thing for us to get better at, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Katie Bowman]

Takes a while before you feel good about saving money or it takes a while before you, you know, your bank account, you have enough to buy the car. It takes a while before you feel good about cleaning out your closet. There's that huge mess on your, you know, pile on your bed that you have to deal with. And movement is the same thing. So we need to have the capacity to be with that discomfort of it, to remember the reason why we're doing it and bring that up closer to us. And there's value in being uncomfortable and doing things that are uncomfortable. I actually think that movement is one of the places that builds a lot of our capacity with discomfort so that then we can have that capacity in other areas of our life. Right. The capacity to be with the discomfort of being with a teenager or, you know, the capacity to be with all sorts of things. And there's benefit in that in itself. But yes, we do need to remind ourselves not everything feels good right away. And sometimes the things that feel good right away aren't the best things for us. So this is a good skill to develop.

[Jenny Urch]

Well, that's good. It's good. There's just a lot of misconceptions in this book that you clarify. Believing that movement only counts if it's linear or unerupted guarantees you're going to fall off the wagon. If you want to stay physically active throughout your life, you have to adapt. You have to adapt to your current age, your stage, whatever's going on in your life. You talk about grief. Lots of different. It's actually a really overarching book, like rigid beliefs about what constitutes success and failure. So it has to do a ton with movement, but it also just has to do a ton with life. And I liked this part. Trying to avoid unpleasant experiences is a big motivator for not exercising. That's huge, right? I mean, you're trying to avoid being embarrassed. You're trying to avoid sweating. You're trying to avoid, you know, all of these sort of things. The anxiety about the amount of time you have. But you wrote the next question is, is avoiding things that make you sweat or avoiding things that make you feel uncomfortable, narrowing your life in other ways? What a book. What a book. I was so excited to get it, and it is phenomenal, and I got so much out of it. I know I should exercise, but. 44 reasons we don't Move and How to Get Over Them. Diana. We always end our show with the same question. Katie's done it before. Quite a long time ago, when I became a very cool podcaster because I had Katie on my show. The question is, what is a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.

[Katie Bowman]

I gotta do a movement memory. That's outside. We lived right up against a creek. Creek bed. And right after school, we'd go down to the creek bed, and all the kids would run down the side of the concrete. It was a concrete crate. Run down the side, and they would practice running up and down it. But that was too scary risky for me. So I would go wander up and try and find flowers and miners, lettuce and look for pollywogs. It's a good memory.

[Jenny Urch]

And you advocated for your own self then.

[Katie Bowman]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

That's actually amazing. Yeah. You did what your body felt comfortable with. Katie, what book are we gonna write together?

[Diana Hill]

I know. What is the topic gonna have to be?

[Jenny Urch]

I'm gonna think about it.

[Diana Hill]

Think about it and let me know.

[Jenny Urch]

I'll send you a proposal. I really, really think that this is one of the most important things that is out there currently, just given the fact that people are not moving. And you wrote, moving is one of the kindest things you can do for yourself. It gave me a lot to think about, a lot to reflect on, but also a lot that helped me understand all of. Because I had a lot of these, you know, I could go through and be check. Felt that. I felt that. I felt that, I felt that. And there really isn't any other place that drills down so deeply into those specific reasons why people aren't moving. And these were all things that people had sent into you over the years. These are the common ones. And I really appreciate it. This is a book that really is. Is helping me. And Katie, you have been really helping me for years as I know like Diana said, she found you and you, you helped her as well. So I appreciate all you put out. I love every Christmas when you do the Advent Christmas moves. I mean just all of it's creative, it's fun and you talk about doing things with kids and without kids and really tremendous, tremendous work to the both of you. I don't even know if that made sense.

[Diana Hill]

It was beautiful. Thank you. And likewise. Likewise. Maybe it's. Maybe it's 44 reasons we don't go outside.

[Jenny Urch]

Ooh, it feels kind of like copying. But it could be a series.

[Diana Hill]

Exactly.

[Jenny Urch]

I know I should go outside, but.

[Diana Hill]

I know I should. But the I know I should but series. I've already been working on that in my mind.

[Jenny Urch]

Oh yeah. I know I should eat. I know I should eat healthier, but.

[Diana Hill]

And Diana would have to co write all of them.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. Because she knows all the psychology. Yes. I love it. Well, I really appreciate it. Like I said, it's impactful for me just in my day to day life already a lot of things that I've thought about and change. Change some little things as well. So really appreciate you taking the time to be here and huge congrats on your new book.

[Diana Hill]

Thank you.