1KHO 446: The Transformative Power of 10 Hours of Recess Each Week | Kensie Wiebe, Timbernook

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast – Episode 1KHO 446

Title: The Transformative Power of 10 Hours of Recess Each Week | Kenzie Wiebe, Timbernook
Host: Jenny Urch
Guest: Kenzie Wiebe, Timbernook
Release Date: March 17, 2025

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Introduction to Timbernook and Guest Background

Jenny Urch opens the episode by introducing her guest, Kenzie Wiebe, whom she met at the Timbernook conference the previous November. Jenny highlights Timbernook's role in facilitating autonomous, outdoor play for children, referencing Angela Hanscom's influential book Balanced and Barefoot, which underscores the critical importance of unrestricted outdoor play in childhood development.

Implementing Timbernook in a Traditional School Setting

Kenzie shares her journey of integrating Timbernook into a traditional Christian school in New Hampshire. She explains how a board member, inspired by Hanscom's research, advocated for the program. Proximity to Angela Hanscom allowed the school to adopt a well-supported, prepackaged curriculum without reinventing the wheel.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [01:57]:
"Our school really felt like it was a good fit because Timbernook does a great job offering prepackaged methods and professional development, making the transition so much easier."

Reasons for Choosing Timbernook

When asked why Timbernook was the best fit among other nature programs, Kenzie emphasizes the comprehensive support Timbernook provides, including a set curriculum and extensive professional development. The quick adoption from exploration in 2019 to implementation by fall showcased the program's effectiveness.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [03:50]:
"Timbernook was what fit best for us because it came with a set curriculum and lots of professional development, setting us up well for rolling it out quickly."

Parental and Administrative Buy-In

Introducing the program was a challenge as it was initiated by the board and administration rather than parental demand. Kenzie describes the efforts to educate and reassure parents through direct communication and by having Angela Hanscom speak at the school. Over time, parents have come to love and expect the outdoor playtime, even attracting new families to the school.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [06:48]:
"We sent out loads of information and educated our parents. Despite some pushback, it didn’t derail the implementation and now it’s something our parents know and love."

Logistics of the Outdoor Program

Initially managed solely by Kenzie, the program has expanded to include three trained Timbernook providers to accommodate growth and extend services to middle school students. The program dedicates two and a half hours twice a week for Timbernook activities, supplemented by daily recess, totaling 10 hours of outdoor time weekly.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [09:20]:
"Our kids have an hour of recess every day and a two and a half-hour block of Timbernook time twice a week, totaling ten hours outside each week."

Benefits of Extended Outdoor Play

Kenzie elaborates on the multifaceted benefits of extended outdoor play. She references Angela Hanscom’s concept that traditional 20-minute recesses are insufficient for meaningful play and highlights research indicating that longer play periods aid in regulating children's arousal levels.

Notable Quotes:
Kenzie Wiebe [10:41]:
"Twenty minutes isn’t playtime. It’s not anything. For kids, it’s nothing. It’s actually kind of cruel because they’re super excited and then it ends abruptly."

Kenzie Wiebe [12:03]:
"After twenty minutes, kids are at the top of the arousal bell curve. They’re excited and dysregulated, only to calm down after about forty-five minutes."

Impact on Academic Performance and Child Development

The school maintains that academic performance has remained consistent despite the reallocation of time from traditional classroom activities to outdoor play. Kenzie points out that while test scores have stayed the same, significant improvements are seen in children's social, emotional, and physical well-being.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [26:02]:
"Our test scores have remained about the same, but our kids' soft skills, social skills, and physical well-being have improved significantly."

Teacher Satisfaction and Mental Health

Introducing Timbernook has also positively impacted teacher satisfaction. Teachers report reduced burnout and greater job satisfaction, as the program allows them to observe their students in new, unstructured environments and decompress outside the traditional classroom setting.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [14:26]:
"Timbernook has paired up with the University of New Hampshire to research teacher satisfaction. Teachers have expressed being glad to step outside for their own mental health benefits."

Extending the Program to Middle School

Recognizing that older students also benefit from unstructured play, the school has piloted a middle school program incorporating Timbernook elements. This includes outdoor skills like fire building and hiking, providing autonomy and fostering socialization among adolescents.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [22:03]:
"Our middle school program is experimental but incorporates numerous Timbernook components, giving students unstructured time to socialize and develop autonomy."

Challenges and Overcoming Resistance

Kenzie acknowledges the challenges of reducing screen time and the cultural shift required to prioritize outdoor play. She advocates for reducing technology use to create space for play, emphasizing patience and encouragement as children adapt to less structured environments.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [37:04]:
"Technology is robbing our kids of playtime. Reducing or eliminating technology can be painful, but once overcome, children will naturally find ways to play."

Advice for Schools Considering Timbernook

For schools interested in adopting similar programs, Kenzie recommends gathering quantitative data to present to administrators, demonstrating that academic benchmarks remain met while enhancing overall child well-being. Partnering with institutions like the University of New Hampshire can provide the necessary research support.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [29:40]:
"Educators make decisions based on data. Partnering with universities to gather quantitative data can help convince administrators to adopt outdoor play programs."

Incorporating Outdoor Play into Family Life

Beyond school, Kenzie shares her experience implementing a technology fast at home to encourage family and peer interactions. She highlights the benefits of increased connection and physical activity, despite initial resistance from both children and parents.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [44:01]:
"By reducing technology use, we've increased opportunities for family connection and unstructured play, which are immensely beneficial for children's development."

Closing Reflections and Childhood Memories

The episode concludes with Kenzie reminiscing about her childhood adventures exploring wooded areas, underscoring the lifelong impact of outdoor play on her personal development and empowerment.

Notable Quote:
Kenzie Wiebe [51:02]:
"Exploring the ravine with my brother felt so empowering. It was an amazing opportunity to be out there, exploring new places on our own."

Conclusion

Jenny Urch and Kenzie Wiebe emphasize the transformative power of dedicated outdoor playtime in schools. By prioritizing unstructured, nature-based activities, schools can foster children's holistic development without compromising academic standards. The Timbernook model serves as an inspiring blueprint for educational institutions seeking to enhance student well-being and teacher satisfaction through meaningful outdoor engagement.

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Key Takeaways:

• Timbernook Integration: Successfully implemented in a traditional school setting through comprehensive support and professional development.

• Extended Play Benefits: Significant improvements in social, emotional, and physical development; consistent academic performance.

• Teacher Well-Being: Enhanced teacher satisfaction and reduced burnout through outdoor engagement.

• Parental Support: Effective communication and education strategies can garner parental buy-in and attract new families.

• Scalability: Programs like Timbernook can be adapted to different educational levels, including middle and high schools.

• Cultural Shift Needed: Reducing screen time and prioritizing unstructured play requires patience and systemic change.

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For More Information:

• Timbernook: Consider visiting a local Timbernook location or arranging a field trip to experience the program firsthand.

• Angela Hanscom’s Work: Balanced and Barefoot is a foundational resource on the importance of outdoor play in child development.

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This episode is a compelling exploration of how structured outdoor play can harmoniously coexist with academic rigor, ultimately fostering well-rounded, resilient, and socially adept children.

Transcript

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[Jenny Urch]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch, I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a guest on today that I got to meet in person at the Timbernook conference that happened last November. Kenzie Weave. Welcome.

[Kenzie Weave]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Jenny Urch]

Okay, you are doing this super, super unique thing. If people have listened before, they've heard about Timber Nook. Timbernook often is a program that meets in a certain location and it's a drop off program where parents drop their kids off in a multi age environment and the kids get an extended time to play in the woods. Maybe there's a creek bed, there's different, some different small parts type things that people can, that the kids can use and the adults stay back in the background, they step in if there's safety concerns. But for the most part these kids are getting some autonomous self directed play. And so I learned about it because a formative book in my life is called Balanced and Barefoot by Angela Hanscom, pediatric occupational therapist and she started Timber Nook. So we've had a couple Timber Nook people on the podcast. We've had on Cassie Butters who has a program in Jackson, Michigan. We have had on Libby Palmer who has a program in Chittingfold and also Angela Hanscom and her daughter has come on too. So we've had all of this. But you have a very, very, very unique situation because you have brought Timbernook into a school and everybody wants to know about this. What's happening, how did it happen?

[Kenzie Weave]

Just kind of go, yeah, well I was actually living in Canada when the school I'm working at now, which is located in New Hampshire, was looking into incorporating an outdoor program into their school. So Angela Hanscom's book actually ended up in the hands of one of our board members. She actually, her kids don't go to our school. She lives in Tennessee. But she had her kids enrolled in a forest school program down there and was really seeing the benefits of outdoor time in her kids lives. And so she got a Hold of Angela's book, which just highlights the need for outdoor time and how because kids haven't been getting it is as much, you know, in the last several decades, we're seeing all kinds of deficits in their development. So she read this book. She was on fire about it. There's so much good research in there. And she shared it with the rest of our board members at school and with our head of school. And so they were excited about it. And being located in New Hampshire, Angela Hanscom's program is just an hour away from us. So they were able to visit and really fell in love with the program. The program itself provides a lot of support as far as training and offering professional development. So our school really felt like it was. It was a good fit because as educators know and administrators, when you want to implement something new in your school, you don't want to have to reinvent the wheel. You don't have to create it all on your own. If there's like a prepackaged method for doing that, that just makes that transition so much easier. So Timbernook does a great job offering that. So we actually looked into the forest school program. We looked into a couple of other nature programs, but Timbernook was what fit best for us.

[Jenny Urch]

Can you tell us why?

[Kenzie Weave]

Why it fit best for us?

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kenzie Weave]

Well, that's what really originally attracted them to the program was that it came with a set curriculum that we could just roll out. It came with lots of professional development. All of our teachers who were going to be implementing the program had to go through a week long training. So lots of really great training on the philosophy and how to implement this. So it really set us up well for rolling this thing out. They, I think, looked into the program in the spring of that would have been 2019, and then rolled it out in the fall 2019. So it was a pretty quick turnaround. We went from being a very traditional Christian school to now all of a sudden getting kids outside for 10 hours a week. Wow. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

10 hours a week. I went and spoke at a school board meeting not that long ago. It's the school district that I grew up at, and our kids don't go there, but we've got friends and family that are in the district and they were all upset because the kids recess had gotten shortened. They tried to be really screwy about it and say it was always this and some people were taking liberties, but basically they were saying that recess was 30 minutes and it's supposed to be 20. And then they'd had. That was it. They had one 20 minute recess in the afternoon and then they had a lunch period that was 45 minutes. That was their time to eat and go outside. So you know how that is. You have to line up, you have to walk to the cafeteria, you have to stand in the line. So you know, these kids are getting outside for maybe, maybe 40 minutes a day. This is two hours a day on average.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Throughout the week. Yeah. So we've 10 hours.

[Jenny Urch]

I mean, what an investment in the kids. But this is, this is a hard sell. I got a message just last week from some parents that are in our area that are also at a small Christian school, like desperate. They were like, you know, we want to send our kids here, but we are so lost in terms of it being so over indexed on academic things, cognition. And can you please come and speak to our administrators or heads of school? That type of thing will fundraise serving you in. But it's like local, so it wouldn't matter. But I mean. Okay, I interrupted, but I have so many questions. So this is pretty impressive that a school, a traditional school would make that leap, especially in a situation where people are paying to come.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, for sure. And we did. It was not voted upon by our parents to bring this in, and it wasn't brought in by parents at all. You know, it was brought in by our board and our administration saying, you know, looking at the research and saying, it's pretty clear that this is what kids need. It's pretty clear that this is best practice and we're going to take the leap of faith and we're going to take this risk and we're going to do it and we're going to see what happens. And six years later, here we are, we're still doing it and our kids are still meeting the benchmarks that they need to meet each year. But we did have to sell it to our parents.

[Jenny Urch]

Tell us about that part.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah. So we actually had Angela Hanscom come and speak at our school, which I realize not everybody can do that because they don't live an hour away from her, but that was really helpful. And then, you know, our administration spent some time informing parents, showing them the research. And then that first year of rolling it out, we had to do quite a bit of communication, weekly communication, actually. So as we were running programming, we would send home at first it was daily. You know, we'd give a recap. Here's what we did out here. Here's what we noticed, here's all of the benefits that the kids are getting out of this particular curriculum out there. And so we sent out just loads of information and just. Just educated our parents. And we had some pushback, but not enough that it, you know, derailed things or hindered the implementation of the program. And now it's what our parents know and love and expect. And we even have, you know, lots of families seeking us out specifically.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Kenzie Weave]

For the reason that we are providing kids with 10 hours of outside time a week.

[Jenny Urch]

Yes. Prioritizing play. I could see that because when I went and spoke at that school board meeting, some of the parents that came, you know, they give you like three minutes, and it's at the very, very end, you have to sit through all this boring stuff. And at the end of this, like, several hour thing, you get up, you get three minutes. They put a timer on the thing. But several parents said, I'm a parent of a preschooler, and this is my deciding factor of whether to send my kid to your district or not. Because this. The play time was so small. So I could see how that. That now especially people know more. It becomes an attractor. Yes. It becomes like, this sets you apart in a good way, that you are prioritizing play. Talk to us about the logistics. So you run this.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah. So when I first started, it actually was just me running the program, and then teachers would come down with their classes. We now have three trained timbernook providers. So there's three of me, essentially now because the program's grown. We now have a middle school program as well, outdoor program. So I know we loved it so much. We're like, our big kids need this too. And we're hoping then to even extend more outdoor time to our high school kids as well. So there's three of us now who are running it on different days. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And logistically, it's 10 hours a week. Logistically. How does that sort of play out over the course of a Monday to Friday?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah. So that 10 hours actually incorporates our recess time, too. So our kids have an hour of recess every day and then have a two and a half hour block of timber duck time on top of that twice a week. Oh, yeah. So some of them are getting, you know, like three, three and a half hours of outside time per day on the days that they have timber nook when it's combined with recess. So, yeah, we're sold out on this play thing, and we've seen lots of amazing benefits, so we're doing it.

[Jenny Urch]

So that is like, more than, you know. I know school days Vary. Right. But they're like six hours, seven hours. That's more on those days where they have the timber time and the recess. That's half the day.

[Kenzie Weave]

It is.

[Jenny Urch]

Or more than half the day.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yep. We bought into it. And like I said, we've been doing this for six years and we have every reason to continue doing it.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow. So for people who haven't heard the other episodes, can you talk about the benefits of extended play outside? This is like one of the things that Angela talks about and really did change my life too, because it's in our culture. You definitely see a lot of drop in, in and out, in and out. Everything is 45 minutes or 30 minutes. We're not used to settling in to a longer period of time. How is that helpful?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, well, it's interesting. We've had some really cold weather here this winter, as I'm sure you guys have too. It's been cold across the country and I think we had a day the wind chill was maybe in the single digits and we had a lot of wind, but we decided we were at least going to go out for recess and. And we decided to shorten it, you know, because it was really cold out. So we shortened it to 20 minutes. And the kids came back in and they were like, what was that? Like, what was that? We didn't even, like, we didn't even start playing, you know, because they're so used to having an extended period of time to play, that 20 minutes was just like. That was not playtime. That was us, like just setting up and getting ready for playtime. But yeah, Angela talks about this and we certainly see it too, that it really takes 20 minutes for kids just to even figure out who am I going to play with, what am I going to play? And if recess is only 20 minutes long, that's as far as they get every time. And then they got to come back inside and they never get into that deep, meaningful play where we see all of the benefits. The other thing that goes along with that, that Angela talks about too, an occupational therapist are well versed in this. When kids go out to play, there's like this arousal bell curve. And so kids actually after 20 minutes are at the top of this arousal bell curve. So, like, their bodies are just getting going and excited and fired up. And if we bring them into the class and teachers know this, you bring them into the classroom after a 20 minute recess and they're, they've got more energy and they're more dysregulated and excited than they were before they went outside. So we see then them actually that, that it comes back down at about 45 minutes. That's when all of a sudden now they're regulated again. That excitement comes down, that arousal comes down. So that's, I think that's research based. They can, they can actually track that and see that, you know, across, across children.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow. And that's why she says it can take up to 45 minutes to develop a play scheme to where you're in the spot where you're super excited and now you've sorted it out and now you're gonna play.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

It was quite a big sentence for you to say, Kenzie, 20 minutes is not playtime. I mean, I think you could say like 20 minutes isn't recess. It's not recess. It's not anything. It's nothing. For kids in terms of, for their development, it's nothing. What a waste to just throw that at them. It's actually kind of cruel because they're, they're super excited about what they're going to do and who they're going to connect with. And then it ends. I have always thought this is the, like, the odd thing to me and I guess, you know, reading Angela's books, I've read a lot of books at this point. This helps with cognition. Dr. Carla Hannaford has one called Smart Moves. Why learning is not all in your head. So when kids play, it helps their social skills. It's in, it's enhancing all the wiring.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And I just talked to this lady who said the competency of the future is relational. She said if everything you do is standardized, machines will just take that over. So all these things that make us human in the relationship piece and like that is the key. And so I've always thought this is such a win, win, win. If we let kids spend more time outside, this is going to help with their development and it's going to help with their cognition. It's not going to affect the test scores. It's going to maybe even make them better. And also this is a win for the teachers because teaching is so unbelievably exhausting and you have to do it every single day and you don't get a day off, you don't have a second to breathe. And it's, it's like often a 10 because you have to be with the kids all day and then I'm going off. But this was my experience with teachers. Being a teacher, you're with the kids all day and then you have to prep for the next day. And then you have to assess them and you have to do report cards and then you have to respond to the parents emails. It is such a heavy load.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And so if the kids have more time to play, that also seems like it would be a win for the teachers.

[Kenzie Weave]

Oh, totally. Yeah. And actually Timbernook has paired up with the University of New Hampshire. They're planning to do a bunch of research. They've started research, though. And the first topic they're researching is like, teacher satisfaction.

[Jenny Urch]

Yes. This is important.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

They're burning out. We are asking too much of them. And a lot of times they have their own families and you go home and you're so exhausted. I think a teacher should have time built into the workday to figure out the next day, but it's not really there.

[Kenzie Weave]

Mm, totally. We actually have our teachers come down to Timber Nook with their kids. We've debated over this. Should we have let them use it as a prep period or should we have them come down into the woods with us? And we actually have opted to have them come down.

[Jenny Urch]

That's wonderful too, isn't it? Because then they get to decompress. So no matter how it goes, whether it goes to prep or whether it goes to, I've got a chance where I can catch my breath because that doesn't happen during the school day. I think that's wonderful. They're getting out. All the adults are getting the benefits of full spectrum sunlight, breathing in the tree air, the photon signs or whatever they're called. So I think no matter how you do it, this is a benefit to the teacher. I love that they're doing this teacher satisfaction survey.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, we're really excited to see what they what they find.

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[Jenny Urch]

What are you Hearing.

[Kenzie Weave]

Well, I know our teachers have, I mean, just come out and said, in some ways, I'm actually glad that I'm forced to go outside without anything to work on because for their own mental health, it's beneficial. They're sitting outside in nature. Sometimes it's cold, you know, and sometimes it can be a little uncomfortable. But for the most part, you know, our, our sites out in the woods. We've got 150 acres. It is beautiful. It is peaceful. And they're seeing their kids in a different light as well, doing things and showing their teachers things that they, they can do that they, they don't see in the classroom. So a lot of teachers have said as well, I didn't, I didn't know this about this child because I would have never seen this in the classroom. This is only something, you know, that I, I would see out here. So it's got a lot of benefits, for sure. Having them down there.

[Jenny Urch]

It's really powerful. I think that is a huge benefit because. Because on the other hand, then if you were going to work, there's always more work to do. So I like, I like that model. It's investing into the mental and emotional health of the teacher as well. Now, you've been doing this for six years. Have there been other schools, other districts that have reached out to you to learn more?

[Kenzie Weave]

I have talked to quite a few, actually, other schools who have been interested in Timbernook, some of which who have ended up adopting the model. Yeah, so there's definitely other schools looking into this. And Timbernook has had several large public schools adopt their program. And we've seen more success with it in some of the smaller schools because logistically it's just easier to roll out with the larger schools. That's something I think. I mean, large public schools were just never set up for this. So there are logistical and structural things I think that are going to have to change or we're just going to have to start getting more creative with looking at how can we implement this into a setting that has never had this before, at least to this extent. So.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, and what about. So is it like when you do it and the kids get the two and a half hours, a couple days a week, Is it one grade that goes out? Do you mix and match? How does that work?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, so we do. Do we intentionally send two or three grades out at a time? Because we want that mixed age layer. So, yeah, we've got, you know, our pre K and kindergarten go out together, our first and second grade Go out together, and then our third, fourth, and fifth go out together in one big group. Because we know. We know the benefits from that too. Yeah, Mixed. Mixed playgroups. It's a much more natural setting for play. It's kind of giving that village playgroup culture to it all. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And you can find, you know, and I know Angela's talked about this, but, you know, if developmentally or maybe a little bit struggling with this, that or the other thing you can lay down, you know, you can find someone that is more at your skill level or opposite. So there's a lot of advantages to having those different ages out there. What does it look like for a middle schooler?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah. So our. So our middle school program is an outdoor program. It is not specifically. We're not specifically running timbernook for them, but it has a lot of timber nook components to it. With that program, it's been kind of experimental. We've only been doing it the last three years. But it incorporates playtime because we have recognized that even those big kids need play and unstructured socialization time. I think that was kind of actually the first or one of the reasons we were. We had kind of experimented with doing just timber nook for them. And then we're like, oh, man. All they're doing is just like getting in little huddles and talking to each other, not realizing that, like, for their stage of development. Now we know that for their stage of development, having unstructured time to socialize is actually what they need. So with our middle school kids. Yeah, they get some unstructured. We try and keep it unstructured to give them that autonomy, to give them that unstructured socialization time and play. And then we usually incorporate then some sort of skill learning and outdoor skill, like fire building or that's fun. Camping. Yeah. Hiking, that kind of stuff.

[Jenny Urch]

I remember that switch happening with our own kids, and I was actually kind of surprised by it. Where it was like, you went from. Everyone's kind of romping in the woods and trying to build forts out of sticks. And then right around middle school, it was like you would go to the park, and then they would all just sit around the picnic table, and they're like, well, what's going on over there? But that is a kind of play. That banter of conversation is a kind of play. So they have an opportunity to do that away from phones and what a valuable thing for them. Okay, So I love that. Wow. So much going on. When I went to that school board meeting, they had the day mapped out down to the minute. I mean, it was like social, emotional, learning. 12 minutes. I was trying to find it on my phone, but I can't. I can't find the actual document. But someone had sent it to me. They have. It broke down by the minute. Oh, I did find it. Okay, here we go. Morning. Nothing was 12 minutes. Everything's even. So they did a nice job with that morning. SEL meeting. 20 minutes. Language comprehension. 30 to 40 minutes. English Language Arts, small group. 30 minutes. Writing, 35 minutes. Math, solvent share. 15 to 20. Math, visual learning. Math, small groups, Science. It's kind of blurry, but anyways, it goes through the whole day, Right? Writing, closing circle. This, that and the other thing. How do you shave 10 hours? Well, I know you said some of it's recess, but even an hour recess is longer than most are getting.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

How do you shave off that amount of time? Where did they pull it from?

[Kenzie Weave]

So we did have to cut down a bit on academic time. But our teachers would say that their kids are more productive in the classroom when they've had that outside time. So they're able to be more efficient with their teaching in a shorter amount of time. So they've noticed that that's the big thing. I think. I think that's really the big reason why we've been able to do it and to stay meeting those benchmarks that, that we've needed to make. So class times have been shortened a bit.

[Jenny Urch]

That sounds great. Yeah, I mean, I think that sounds great. I just think we over index on the academics. And so you have to have faith to take that risk and to say, I believe the research, because the research is clear. You know, kids are getting more oxygen to their brains and they're, you know, they're more ready to learn who no one can sit for, you know, four, five, six hours in a row and learn, learn, learn. Even Angela Hanscom, she has that story, I'll never forget it, where she was like, you know, I'm just gonna go sit and see what it's like. So she went to some middle school and she said she couldn't make it through. One day she left at lunch. She was like, this is so awful. Just to sit, sit, sit and sit. And she was like, I had to leave. And she says, you know, we should ask adults to sit through what we expect of kids in a day and to see what they think about it. So what has happened with scores? They've just sort of remained the same. What kind of scores are people looking at?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, so we use NIWA testing or MAP testing, which is a pretty common form of assessment, standardized assessment. You know, we've only been doing this for six years. We're a small school, so we don't have a huge sample size, but with our own analysis of our test scores. Because we've been curious too, you know, if our test scores started going down, we would reevaluate what we're doing. What we've seen is that our test scores have, have remained about the same. Yeah. So we've not seen, you know, I think people want to hear, oh, we saw like huge improvement in our test scores. They've stayed about the same, but they have not gone down, which is what, you know, we wanted to look into. And I think, you know, the important part to mention to that is sure, our test scores, it would have been great had they gotten lots and lots better. But the truth of the matter is our kids soft skills, social skills, their physical well being, that has all gotten so much better. So if we can get keep our academic achievement where it was before we started and we can see huge improvements here with their social, emotional, learning and their physical competence, I think that's, that's a huge win.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow. That is so that their scores have gone up but we can't measure everything, Right?

[Kenzie Weave]

Right. Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Those skills, you can't measure all of those things. I mean, I think it's incredible that it's remained the same that over the course of a month you have taken 4, 40 hours, 40 hours of time out of it and it didn't matter. It didn't matter. And instead it's investing in the kids and the things that they need, they need to play. Angela says play is the work of childhood. How about kids that come and they haven't had much experience playing?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

So I know that happens. How do they adjust to it?

[Kenzie Weave]

I would say for the most part they adjust quickly, which is good. You know, we'll have kids who come in who may have a hard time for a couple of days, maybe for a couple of weeks, but eventually they get into it. The rest of the kids are so experienced with play, you know, especially our older kids that have been in the program for years. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Their whole child, their whole school. Like if they're in, if it's been around for six years and you have someone who's in the fifth grade that has been a part of their entire school experience.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yes.

[Jenny Urch]

How cool.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yes. Yeah. So I mean truly play. It's within every child. There's no doubt there's there's no kids that are just like broken and don't have play within them. You know, once you get them out there, it may take them a little bit, a bit of time to kind of figure things out, but. But they do, especially when they're surrounded by a bunch of kids who are already really great at playing. So. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Have they noticed any differences in behavioral problems or things like that?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, and that I think plays into what I was saying earlier about how our time in the classroom can be more focused and more concentrated. We do, I think we experience truly very few behavioral problems. Not that it's totally wiped everything out and our kids are all perfect angels sitting in desks and ready to learn. But overall, I think it has, it's made a huge difference. And our teachers, when they really see the big difference are on weeks when we've had these, you know, cold weather snaps where we can't send kids outside because we have wind chills below zero, that they're like, oh my goodness, you know, our kids are crazy. They need to get outside. They need timbernook time. So they do. They do notice that on days when they have timber nook versus days when they don't have timbernook, there's a difference.

[Jenny Urch]

But let's say somebody's listening in. And I know that there are people listening in because I just got this email last week that they're feeling this. Like I really would want to bring this to my school. What would be your advice on the steps that they should take?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, I actually had some information. I kind of wrote down about this because I was anticipating this might be a question. The truth of the matter is, you know, educators and educational leaders are making decisions usually based on data, information. That's what they want. Which is why I'm glad that we partnered up with University of New Hampshire and there's other timber duck schools that have, have as well. I'm hoping we can get more information and, you know, quantitative data gathered that we can take to other schools and say, you know, this does work. Look at our test scores, look at the other things that we've been able.

[Jenny Urch]

To measure or the mental health, I mean even that. I talked to this man earlier today who wrote a book called I Hate Myself and he is a psychiatrist, spoken all over the world. I mean, he's written 20 books. One of the things that he was talking about was when people self loathe that, it's a, it can be a very big problem that first of all is not being addressed. But also that there really aren't measures that people can take to fix it. Like, nobody really knows how to fix it. There's not enough studies and that it just impacts everything if you loathe yourself and you have this really poor view of yourself. And he said a lot of times it starts in childhood. People can't really kind of pinpoint when they started to feel this way. But one of the things. And he had this list of. I mean, not that many things, maybe like eight to 10 things that really help. And one of them was autonomy. And that sometimes that. Well, one person had said, because he had people like have. Give testimonials and things. And this one person has said, my parents mean the best. They're not trying to be mean, but they have made every decision for me. And it makes me feel like I'm incompetent and not worth anything. And so when a child has two and a half hours to play, what you're saying to them is, I trust you. I trust your body. I trust your decisions and those things. So we talk about, like, the mental health epidemic for kids. I think that data is first and foremost above the test scores. How are they doing as an overall human being?

[Kenzie Weave]

Right. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

But anyway, I don't know. I don't know if that's the stuff that they're including in, but it's like, I'm sick of it being like, what's the data? How. How good can they read? It's like, well, that doesn't matter. Some people don't learn to read till they're 10. Who cares? It's like, I want to know the data of, like, do they like life and do they like themselves? And do they know how to find their interests and passions? And I don't even know how you measure that stuff.

[Kenzie Weave]

Absolutely. Well, no, I completely agree. And it's hard to know, you know, where change. Where we can make the most change, because the school leaders and administrators are getting this pressure from, you know, above them. I mean, this is a systemic problem, you know, way above us, you know. You know, within even just not just like our culture, but our government. I mean, everything. There's so much pressure on schools, especially the public school, to perform. So can we change that? I hope eventually we can, and I'm hoping there's people that are making changes at that level. But, you know, in terms of making a difference in your own school district, I think, you know, if we have. If we have data that can at least get administrators to that point to say, okay, I feel like there's Enough research that I can, I can make this leap of faith here and it's going to be okay. My test scores aren't going to go down because it didn't go down for these other schools that have already tried this out and then, you know, connecting to their goals and their priorities. If the, if the goal and the priority of school districts is still that we've got to meet these benchmarks in math and reading, providing them with information to show that like, well, hey, play is actually supporting all of these things. Play is the other, the other half of the puzzle. You know, it's laying the groundwork for kids to come into the classroom ready to learn so they're actually going to do better at learning. You're going to have more success at teaching reading and math if kids have had a sufficient amount of outdoor time to move their bodies, to do all the things that their little bodies were created to do, you know.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, so it's really just an education piece, if you wanted to bring it. I think that the idea of even giving Angela Hanscom's book to an administrator, you know, if they would be willing to read it, I think would be an amazing first start. I've always felt like that should be required reading, like handed out at the hospital, you know, or have the midwives handed out at the home births. Like, I mean, this is a foundational piece and it starts in infancy. So I mean it really should be like in the baby shower basket or whatever. And what an amazing thing that your administration and your school board read it and accepted it. It's an amazing thing because then you're able to ripple out to these other districts who are now coming to you as the model. Yeah. And it's affecting so many kids and it has a generational impact. So what an incredible thing. Kenzie, I love this.

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[Kenzie Weave]

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[Jenny Urch]

The way I see running is a gift, especially when you have stage four cancer. I'm Ann. I'm running the Boston Marathon presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance to thrive in life even with cancer. Join bank of America and helping Anne's cause. Give if you can@b of a.com support Ann, what would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not endorsement by bank of America Corporation Copyright 2025 okay, let's just move out of the school setting and just talk about during family time. So school takes up X amount of the day and then we go home and When I was a kid, you had very minimal homework. Really? Probably until 7th ish grade, maybe none. I mean I kind of think we probably had none. I mean maybe like a little project here or there. Yeah, until 7th ish grade. Then it got a little bit more hefty as those years came. What are some things that families can do to incorporate outdoor play into their lives outside of the school day?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, well, I, I guess the first thing I would say is that it can be simple. You know, kids, if given enough time, will naturally play. It's what they're designed to do. I think one thing I found as I'm a parent, I've got three little boys and I'm navigating this world of technology and it is all around us and it's hard to avoid. And actually just recently we went on technology fast and part of that was I also teach middle school. I've got a middle school class that I teach one class to science class to each week and we've been doing a unit on mental health and technology, social media. It's been really interesting and I've gotten a lot of feedback from those kids. It was really eye opening to see where these kids are at in middle school and how technology has really shaped and formed them. A lot of these kids actually didn't grow up in our Timber Nook program, they transferred in. So it's been really interesting. Yeah. Just to see how that's impacted them. So it motivated me to do this technology fast with my own kids and really opened my eyes to how much technology gets in the way of play. And sure, you can argue that, well, kids are still playing, you know, their game on technology. Oh, but they're missing out on so many of the benefits that come through play in real life. You know, the physical component, the emotional component, the, you know, there's so many, so many different benefits that kids get out of playing with other children face to face. Anyways, I think that's a big, a big hurdle that maybe parents are facing is, you know, technology is robbing our kids of playtime. It's replacing playtime. So I think that's the first maybe hurdle that some parents need to address is how can I reduce or eliminate some of that technology? Time just to open up space for kids to play. And they'll probably enter into that space maybe kicking or screaming as we know, taking that technology away. It's a painful process for parents and kids. But once you get over that, you know, 45 minutes or an hour of I'm bored, what am I going to do? There's nothing to do. I would say, say I tell my kids like I'm, I'm confident you will find something to do. I know you will. You guys are going to find something to do. Keep encouraging them that way. And then, and then they do. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

What are the middle school kids saying? Because I think this is a piece of the puzzle that we're really missing. I don't actually think we're listening to the kids. And I don't know why. I've only read. Of all the things I've read, I've only read one book that really addresses what the kids are saying. It's a very sobering book. I think every parent should read it. It's called American Girls. Social media and the Secret Lives of Teenage Teenagers. Or teenage, I can't exactly remember, but it's called American Girls by Nancy Jo Sales and it also includes stuff for boys. So you would read it. I mean, if you have any kid that's like preteen, you read it because it is heart wrenching. What's expected, you know, what they're dealing with, what they're seeing for boys and for girls. And it really makes you stop and think, what were your middle schoolers saying?

[Kenzie Weave]

Well, it was interesting. I feel like some of this information that we're getting, as parents is getting out to kids now. You know, they're sort of learning about or at least hearing about, like, oh, okay, the water we're swimming in isn't good in some ways. So a lot of them have heard bits and pieces of information about, oh, why is social media bad? Or what are the, you know, the negative parts of that? What do I need to be careful about those sorts of things? But at the same time, they're still young and they still, They've been swimming in this water their whole lives, like they were born into this, so they don't know any different. So what, you know, one of the things actually that was. That really stood out to me. I asked my kids, you know, what are you. What are you going to do this weekend? What are you guys up to? And some of them said, well, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to FaceTime, a friend. I'm probably going to be on my phone for most of the day. I'm just going to be at home. And I said, is anybody going to have, like a sleepover? Does anybody have anybody over to hang out to play? Because that's what we did as kids, right? Like every Friday it was like, who am I going to call up, you know, to have over to watch a movie? Because there was, you know, nothing else to do. Not one of them raised their hands. Nobody was getting together with anybody. They might be getting together online, but they weren't getting together in person. And then I asked them, how many of you would like to get together with somebody else? And almost all of them raised their hands. Yeah. So they're wanting to do that. I don't know if it's. It's just not so much like cultural norm that it's. It's almost intimidating or scary or, you know, and I asked some of them that too, like, well, why, why don't you. Why don't you just call somebody up and have them over? And some of the feedback I got was interesting. One of the kids said, well, I'm afraid of other people's parents.

[Jenny Urch]

Oh, okay. That's a really interesting thing, Kenzie, because actually we've talked about this a few times in terms of this concept of promise versus peril, which is that technology promises a lot, but oftentimes we don't talk about the downsides. And there's a lot of examples of it. But one specific example that we have talked about is when you have your own individual phone, you don't have to call the house and so like, you and I would have had a lot of experience as a 10 year old or as a 9 year old calling a number, not knowing who's going to answer.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And then having to say, you know, Mrs. Jones, whatever, is Becky there? Or whatever, you know.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

So you build up that muscle. But these kids have not ever had to do that.

[Kenzie Weave]

Right? Yeah. And it seems like maybe haven't had a lot of experience just being in somebody else's house, you know, and having to follow somebody else's rules and other ways of doing things, customs or whatever in their house. And so that's intimidating to them.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. And I also think from the parental perspective, we try and have friends over quite a bit. But also I. It does make me feel on edge. I'm like, are they having a good time? Do they like our food? You know, what if they hate it here? So, you know, there's a little bit of anxiety, I think, on both levels, like for the kid and the parent. And so I think it can be a lot easier just to like not deal with it. And if no one else is doing it, then you kind of just go with that current. But what a difference, what a difference for these kids that that's what their weekends are like. So if your kids are young, you could start now by having them call because they maybe they don't have their own phone. So you could have them use your phone to call the parent.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And say, can Chloe come over? Or whatever. Interesting stuff. How did your technology fast go?

[Kenzie Weave]

It's going well. I've actually been.

[Jenny Urch]

Oh, it's going on right now. It.

[Kenzie Weave]

Well, it is. It still is. Yep. We're still in it. I am kind of doing it as an experiment to just kind of see how long we can make it, you know. So I've been journaling along the way actually, and writing down all of the good things that I've seen coming out of it. And I think one of the biggest things, because my kids play a lot. They do. You know, I make sure that they're, they're doing a lot of that while they're at home. But we do. My kids love to watch movies, they love to watch their favorite show and things like that. And it's easy at the end of a work day when I'm trying to get dinner made to just be like, we're going to pop the show on. And so I've noticed by not doing it, and we had a long talk, I prefaced it with the long talk with them, a conversation we had Just about why we're doing it, to try and get them on board to buy into it. So it's not just mean mommy saying no more tv, but we have had so many more opportunities for connection with each other. Even if it's, you know, my nine year old instead of being in the other room watching TV while I'm making dinner, coming in and just sitting at the countertop and talking to me while I'm making dinner. So connection time with me, but then connection time with each other too, you know, rather than all sitting in front of the tv. They're playing, they're talking, they're doing a lot of wrestling. I have three boys, they're just like a ball of wrestling all over my house. So you know, with taking technology away, you got to be kind of ready for that too and just, you know, accept that's going to be part of it. But know that it's so good for them.

[Jenny Urch]

Wrestling is so good for them. All of that touch and they're learning self control. Oh my gosh, that's so good. Yeah. But as a, as a parent you have to be willing to, you know, let that sort of messier side of life in. This is inspiring. Let me ask you one last question. I spoke at the school district to, there was like a parent night in our area and this mom raised her hand at the end and she was crying and she was talking about how they had given her five year old an iPad for school assignments but there's, there appears to be like no blocks on them. And so the other five year old parents were letting their kids play Minecraft on the tablet and she didn't want him to play Minecraft but that was causing all this contention because her kid left out, got left out and she didn't, she didn't know what to do and I didn't really know what to do. You know, people ask you these questions and I don't really have, I mean my answer would be to stick to your guns. I mean that would be my answer. Like, you know, you're the gatekeeper, you have to think long term. I mean that is my answer, but my answer really is like, I'm so sorry, what an awful situation to put a child and a parent in and all the kids, right. Because then it just, it changes the whole dynamic. Do you think that if you have a culture that values play and you start to see over the years that this really helps the child's well being, do you think that that would help with these decisions of like, at what age Are we giving kids screens and technology to do their work?

[Kenzie Weave]

Oh, to do their work, even. So are you asking, like, if there's a cultural shift this way? Do I think it's going to impact. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Do you think, like. So it was just an interesting, like they brought me in to talk about play and yet at the same time they're giving five year old iPads from, you know, for to use in the classroom and then not blocking it so that they can only do schoolwork. They can do all sorts of other things on it. And so I just wondered if that trickles, like if that emphasis on play and bringing a Timbernook program in, and it may not, but I was like, does that trickle into those other types of decisions in terms of prioritizing child development?

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah, well, I can, I can speak to. Our school has specifically. We took out all technology essentially out of our elementary school classrooms when we adopted this program. So it did. So yes, yes, it did, definitely. And I think it's not to say that all technology is bad. You know, there is some technology and educational programs, you know, that work that are not bad, that are, you know, effective. But I think traditional forms of education are effective too. And so we decided we were going to stick to righty. Our kids still learn cursive at our school. We're kind of old school, you know, so we stuck to more traditional ways, at least, you know, that way in terms of what, what we have in our classroom and have intentionally left the technology out because we know that outside of school there's tons of it. They're getting all of it there. So if we could have a time period during the day where they don't have access to that. Yeah, we see the benefit in that actually, even with our high school kids, our high school kids do have access to Chromebooks, but we have a very strict no cell phone policy. So cell phones are collected before kids come onto campus. They don't get cell phones at basketball games. They don't get cell phones on field trips. They don't get cell phones on retreats. We try.

[Jenny Urch]

What a gift. What a gift to those kids. Because if you read that American Girls book, you know what she's talking about is like, you know, you have to spend two hours getting ready in the morning because someone might take your picture and you never know who it's gonna be. And like the amount of pressure that girls are under and boys are under to get certain types of pictures from the girls, I mean, it's just, it's gut wrenching. And so These are protective measures, protective measures around childhood. And I'm so thankful that you came on to talk about it. I love the Timbernook programs that are happening in the communities, but what a cool thing to hear that you could bring this to your school. And another option would be, if you're interested, you can even take a field trip to a Timber nook location. So if there's one near you, that's an option too. You could even try it out that way and go and have a field trip. And I think that that would be a unique way for teachers to see which kids kind of rise to the occasion, maybe the ones that are a little more high energy. And you can. You can celebrate that. You can celebrate those things. They become leaders outside often. So. What an impactful thing. Kenzie, did you know when you started that the ripple effect would be so large?

[Kenzie Weave]

No, no. I thought it was a neat job opportunity, but I was a traditional high school science teacher before taking this job, and this has completely transformed my own educational philosophy. And it's. Yeah, it's been really incredible to see how the whole Timber Duck program has. I mean, it's. It's not just in the United States, it's in Canada, it's in Europe. So it's been really neat to see how that movement is truly, hopefully, changing, changing our culture, changing the world. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow, Kenzie, this is so cool. We got to meet in person now. We're getting this time together. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[Kenzie Weave]

Oh, that's a good question. I actually, I grew up in Illinois, but I was blessed to live in a kind of a wooded area with a ravine. And my brother and I. And I think my cousin was with us, and our cat, we went down into. We went down in the ravine all the time. But we decided to venture further than we had ever ventured before. And we were gone for hours and found what we thought was just like, you know, new land, new. It was like, you know, going out into the wild, wild west. We thought it was amazing. And we got. We got in so much trouble by our babysitter when we got home because we had been gone for hours. She had been calling us. We didn't respond. But we decided it was so worth it because it was. Yeah, it was. It was. It's something I even remember today. It was just such a neat opportunity to be out there on our own, exploring new places. It was so empowering. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

In some ways, that's like the best babysitting job because, like, the kids aren't around, except that you're freaked out that they're not going to come back. And this is like, your one job is to keep your eye on them. Oh, I love that. And I love that. And this is very similar to what's going on. The adults are in the background. Kids are able to make their own decisions and be autonomous. What a gift. I think that this is changing our world because it is giving a model that helps us to protect those important spaces of childhood. So thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and explaining what you're doing and how other people can get involved and why it matters.

[Kenzie Weave]

Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. It was great.