← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 448: Have We Removed the Greatest Teacher About How to Live? | Suzanne B. O'Brien, The Good Death
00:57:55
Loading summary
Transcript55 lines
- [00:01]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Any vehicle can take you places, but why stop there? The Alfa Romeo Tonale combines luxurious Italian design and electrifying performance to make every mile a masterpiece and every arrival unforgettable. When precision meets instinct and power moves with purpose, you never have to stay in a lane. Experience a world without limits in the Alfa Romeo Tonale Plug In Hybrid. Tap the banner to learn more. Alfa Romeo is a registered trademark of FCA Group Marketing SpA. Used with permission. All right, here we go.
- [00:32]
Jenny Yurch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Yurch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I had an inquiry come in recently about an author. And the topic is something that I actually haven't thought much about and certainly we've never talked about on this show. And I just felt drawn to it, like, this is probably something that's really important. It is something that's really important. The book is called the Good Death. The subtitle is a guide to supporting your loved one through the end of life. And the author, Suzanne B. O'Brien, is here. Welcome, Suzanne.
- [01:03]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:06]
Jenny Yurch
So I read this book, and actually a lot of it reminded me of birth. It was interesting. There's a lot of parallels, I felt like, with when you sort of step out of the medicalized birth realm and, you know, you have a birth plan and you think through the different. What happens for the first hour afterward, you start to think through those different things. And you even called these doulas, you know, this similar terminology, walking through the end of life. And I read the book, and I found that it inspired me to live better, to live in a. In a way that is a reminder that we have limited time here on Earth in our lives. And so I just found the book to be incredibly, incredibly valuable and wonderful. The Good Death. Can you start off, Suzanne, by talking about your career? So you're a nurse. Well, you talked about how it's sad. You have these elderly patients that are dying alone. You don't have enough time as a nurse to be with them. And then you're sort of moving into hospice care. But the biggest thing you said is none of the families have any training on this. So the families are coming in and they're helping care for their loved ones near the end of their life. And you say, well, we have maybe an hour, maybe to sort of teach them what to do in the situation. And that really changed your trajectory. So what was your sort of initial story heading into teaching people about the end of life?
- [02:22]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Yeah. Thank you, Ginny. This is amazing. This is such an important thing. So I want to just. First for your listeners is start off by saying, this is going to be a really inspirational healing and empowering conversation. So let's get that right out, because I understand the title of the book is called the Good Death. Yes, it has good in it, but it also has this word in it that is the number one fear in the world. So I want to share with you that this is going to be an amazing conversation to share with you. Yes, I am a registered nurse, and I was drawn. I was in the hospital setting, and I was really miserable. I thought going into nursing, I would find my purpose. I'd be in a helping profession, I'd make a difference every day. And I found that that really wasn't the case. And it was because of the structure that we're under right now and the fragmented health care system. And you actually have very little time with patients. You're running around, you're giving medication, you're doing documentation. And that's what I went into nursing for. And I think most people in the health care went in to make a difference and be with patients and families. And I heard this little voice that said, go to hospice. And it was so interesting because I remember exactly when I heard it. I was in the wing, I was tied to my med car. I was like, I'm never going to get fulfillment from this. What am I going to do? And I heard go to hospice. And when I heard that, I felt something I had never really felt before. I felt a peace, I felt an excitement. I felt an expansion. And it made no sense because I had no end of life experience. So I was like, why am I hearing this analytically? But I said, you know, I followed everyone, others, everyone's advice in the world. And I. I know there has to be more. And I'm just gonna. I don't know what this is, but I'm gonna see what this is. And I went and I became a hospice nurse. And that very first day, I knew I was in the exact place I was supposed to be in my life. And I've heard you talk about this following the inner voice. You have that you have that higher knowing. And I knew that that's how life works. And so I went into hospice care and I knew that that was. And even though I had no actual, in this lifetime bedside experience or end of life experience, there's something incredibly natural. It was like it had been there a thousand million times before. And I was calm in that situation. And I was able to make a big difference. And then I started to not. Most of our families and patients were not having good end of lives. And I said, what's happening here? This is the end of life provider. And, you know, we could talk for hours about this. But right now, as you've mentioned, the way that the hospice benefit is set up is that the hospice nurse myself is supposed to teach the family how to do the care. Medicare determined that 98% of hands on end of life care is done by family caregivers. They usually don't know the first thing about how to do that. People come on hospice services very late because the fear of death and because we're living in a society to live forever and all of that, by the time that somebody's put on hospice, they're usually, you know, within a few days, sometimes when it's good for six months or less. So as a hospice nurse, I'm there for one hour once a week. If that patient is what you call stable, how are you supposed to teach a family how to do this very important care? It doesn't work. And so like you said, one of the biggest gaps in this is that families, this is a skill that 100 years ago was handed down from a grandmother to a grandchild. Death is not a medical experience. It's a human one. We've lost touch with that. At the same time, we've lost touch of all of the sacred wisdom that comes in that space that teaches us about how to live. And right now, the end of lives are not going well for multiple reasons. And so for me, one of the biggest reasons for writing this book was to get that skill back in the hands of family caregivers, to reduce the fear and to also bring back the sacredness that the end of life journey really is. And this used to be how cultures and religions for thousands of years looked at it. And there are things that happen at that end of life that are so incredibly poignant and beautiful that will change your perspective about how you live every day from that moment forward.
- [06:25]
Jenny Yurch
Wow. I mean, it was such a good read. And it includes worksheets and different things for you to think about. You also offer free family caregiver trainings that are in 15 languages. And then you have professional courses for death doulas. I mean, the wording is remarkably similar to birth. Yeah, death is not a medical experience, it's a human one. Like we would say the same, the same thing about birth. My midwife would notice the signs, the signs that the baby is almost Here and at the end of life, you also talk about, you know, these are some things that happen almost every time and this is the timeframe that they happen so that I wanna read what you wrote. The truth is that most end of life care is provided by family members, but they aren't given instructions on what to do or how to handle the challenges they will face. Most home hospice nurses are given an average of 60 minutes per week to teach the family how to care. For someone who is on their way to dying. It isn't nearly enough. And like I said, this isn't something I had thought about much. And I picked up your book and I really, truly learned so much. You talked about an experience because you're a nurse and you know, you have these different situations where there's panic and crisis and fear, understandably in these end of life moments. And you had though this one particular experience where it was different and it really stuck out to you walk in and you said there was calm and it was peace through the final breath. Can you talk about the juxtaposition between how it normally was and then what happened when you saw this particular family?
- [07:48]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
I can. If you think about it, when we pretend as a society today that death is almost optional, right? That it's not going to happen when it does show up, and it's 100% guarantee that it will, it's a crisis, it's a, it's a very difficult thing. And then you couple that with most people not having any experience in this space and seeing the natural way that end of life occurs. So I also think, and I think it's a, it's a multi layered issue that we've created the dysfunction around here because we teach doctors how to extend life. And you know, in medical school we don't teach them anything about end of life. We treat them like they failed if their patient dies, Even if they're 101, we use verbiage like he lost his battle or you have to fight. And so this is what I was seeing over and over again is that people would come on and it was a crisis for the whole family and that person would die without those final conversations or how they wanted it. And there's just so much regret and trauma in that space. And then in this one hospital room as an oncology nurse, I walked in to check on my patient and there were four family members surrounding her bed in just quiet as she was transitioning out of this world, taking her last breaths in that actively dying state. And there was something and it Was so interesting being an oncology nurse because, you know, all the doors look the same, right? So you, you know, the numbers on the door are different. You go in and there's a different experience as you cross that threshold. And for this one, I walked into that room and there was just this serenity and peacefulness and love that was in that room. And I was watching these family members really stand in, holding a space for their loved one as they were taking their last breaths. Not panicking, not saying or doing anything but being. And I just. I didn't say anything. I gently removed myself from that room, shut the door, and I said to myself, if people. I literally had a tear come down my face from what I just experienced. I said if people could see that if they knew end of life could be like that, they'd never be afraid. So I'm going to tell them that was 2009, and it just changed everything that it could go like that. So now I went on my quest of what are the elements that help us to reach that place of acceptance and serenity? And there are elements that people can achieve that good death because we're all entitled to it, and we're all going to have that experience.
- [10:21]
Jenny Yurch
And that's what the book is about. It's about making the steps so that you can have a good death. And possibly people have never thought about this before, what that looks like and what are the things that you should think about ahead of time. So you talk about how, because, you know, you just brought this up, that the doctors are not trained in this. They're trained to extend life, that a couple different things can happen. First of all, they can offer false hope. And second of all, they can sometimes do more harm than good because of all of the interventions that they are pursuing. So can you talk about, I mean, I guess the opposite perspective of that, which, I mean, I would feel that it's like you do everything you can, but to your point, nobody lives forever. How do you find the balance there of acceptance when it's time?
- [11:05]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Yeah, I think that if we can have this conversation now, you and I, your listeners, about that one day, if I live with the awareness that one day the journey will not be as I know it today, I will tell you this, that you live with such a different, different level of gratitude, which is the key to a beautiful life, by the way. And I just want to say it's not even like the black and white of life or death. It's that sometimes our functioning changes, sometimes our situation changes. And so if you can learn to. Really, what I. What I try and do is live each day like it's one little lifetime. So I make sure that I don't miss it, because I just don't know how many days I have. I don't want to miss the joy in it. I don't want to miss the opportunity to connect with others. And I don't want to miss the opportunity to appreciate everything that I have in this moment. And I think that allows me. When I. I've studied people that got to the end of life, and there weren't many that organically had that acceptance. It was that they lived with the awareness that one day that would change, and they lived a very different level of appreciation. And so I think that it's really important for us to think about this. This is what I'll always say is the benchmark. We know that one day the journey will not be as we know it today. And that's okay. What's not okay is continuing to do futile and aggressive and painful treatments, hoping that it's going to reverse something when there's no chance at it. So what I would say for all of us is that the benchmark that I always teach is what quality of life means to you. And that's going to be something very unique to individuals. And so what that means is what brings your day joy. Think about what brings your day joy. Playing with your dog, taking a walk in the park, being able to communicate with your loved ones. When that is no longer attainable, you don't want to then go down rabbit holes of trying this and that and the other thing, when there's no reversing the process. Instead, you want to focus on what's called tight symptom management for the highest quality every single day. And that's a beautiful way to look at it because. And if I may, I want to tell a story about two men. Quickly there. And this is in the book. Two men, both 80 years old, were diagnosed with lung cancer within a month of each other. One was in New York, one was in Massachusetts and took very different routes. One went into the one in Boston, went into aggressive chemotherap therapy and radiation immediately. And there's no judgment here. It's just all about choice. The other one in New York said, you know, I've lived a good life. I'm just going to go home and, you know, go on hospice. That year. They both lasted a year and lived for another year. The one in Boston was very, very sick. He was, you know, from his Treatments, which is not always the correct word. I always kind of stop at that. But with the aggressive treatment and he ended up just a few days on hospice and dying with the family not being able, kind of scrambling at the end. The other gentleman was gardening, he was telling jokes, he was meeting with friends and he actually lived a month longer than the other person. And again, yeah. So I feel like the benchmark is very much quality of life. Now people can choose whatever they want. What I'm finding is not happening for people and families is that they're not given all the information to make a subjective, educated decision for themselves. So we have a tool, Ginny, that I'm actually going to send you the link, which is the top questions to ask when there is a serious illness. Illness that is a guide for families that they can ask and then they can take all of their information and decide what is the best pathway for them. It's a really beautiful one. So I'm going to make sure that you have that. But I want people to think about this. What is quality of life to you and what brings your day joy? And when that's not attainable anymore, when would that benchmark be? And then I always say base your decisions off of that.
- [14:45]
Jenny Yurch
I want to read a couple of these quotes so people can see how thought provoking and like, in my perspective, my life, I'm like, I haven't thought about a lot of these things. So how this book might fill in some gaps for you. And I know you had this story where you started to go public with it. You have your first class out in the community and you think, well, is anybody going to show up? And it was just like jam packed. So you just could see, like, this is a very big felt need that people need to be talking about. So you wrote, we expect actors to somehow fix the unfixable and defy the inevitable. There comes a moment when letting go and accepting the inevitable would be the most compassionate choice for the patient, the patient's loved ones, and also for the doctor. Efforts can sometimes do more harm than good. And then you wrote this. Medicine's primary focus is to keep people breathing at all costs. But those costs are great and not just financial. One of those costs is that concentrating on keeping people alive means we fail to provide the support that those transitioning out of this world truly need. So the end of life care can be dysfunctional. It's something to be aware of, something to learn about. And you start to talk about a good death. I've never heard that phrase but when I read your book, which is a wonderful book, I learned so much like what does it mean to have a good death?
- [16:00]
C
Who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury, it doesn't mean I can always afford it. Until I discovered Quince. Quince is my go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. I love the range of high quality items at prices that are within reach like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50 washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters and 14 karat gold jewelry. The best part? All Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings onto us. And Quince only works with factories that use safety, safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that the puffer jacket I got from Quince has been a go to companion during these cold Michigan winter days. It is super warm and also super cute. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N c-e.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside.
- [17:13]
D
Hey friends, I'm Annie F. Downs, author, speaker, podcaster and part of the that Sounds Fun Network, and I'm a big fan of seeing God move in our everyday lives. Can we talk for a second about what it really means to be a person of faith? It's waking up every day and choosing to trust him even when life feels uncertain. It's standing firm in truth, walking in grace, and knowing that God is always with us. But I know staying rooted in faith is not always easy. At least it isn't for me. And that's why I love Glorify, the number one Christian devotional app designed to help you start, grow and strengthen your relationship with God every single day. One of the things I love about Glorify is the amount of options available to me through the app every day. Not only does it help me kick off my time with God with their daily devotional, but there's a song of the day to listen to and a community of other users available to engage with. And it's really cool. With Glorify, you can begin your morning in Scripture, reflect with a daily devotional, and end the day with the daily walk with God, this immersive experience that quiets your heart and refocuses your spirit. It's one of my favorite hacks, something simple but powerful that keeps you anchored when life gets busy. And since we're shining a light on women this month, let's celebrate the strength, faith and stories of women who inspire us every day. And for the men listening, think about how you're uplifting the women of faith in your life. Join me and over 20 million believers who have found encouragement through Glorify. Download the app today@glorified app.com podcast and let's keep walking in faith together again. That's glorified-app.com podcast.
- [18:51]
C
A while back our daughter hurt her elbow and we had no idea what to do. We took her to the ER and they didn't know what the issue was either. Long story short, we fixed her up at home using YouTube but still had a thirteen hundred dollar bill for the ER visit after insurance kick victim. How insane is that? They didn't fix her and we still had to pay all that money. Insurance felt sort of useless at that point. The headache of health insurance is exactly why crowd health was created. It's not health insurance. It's a better way to pay for health care through crowdfunding. Stop sending money to big insurance companies who profit off of not paying your bills and check out crowd health. While the traditional health insurance process is confusing and can leave you feeling taken advantage of, crowd health is doing things differently. For $175 for an individual or $575 for a family of four or more, you'll get access to a community of people who are willing to help out in the event of an emergency. You'll get access to telemedicine, visits, discounted prescriptions, and so much more without doctors networks getting in the way. And of course you'll join the crowd, a group of members just like you who want to help pay for each other's unexpected medical events. Let crowd health help you with your healthcare needs. Get started today for just $99 per month for your first three months by using code 1000hours@joincrowdhealth.com Crowd health is not insurance. Learn more at joincrowdhealth.com that's joincrowdhealth.com code 1000hours.
- [20:16]
Jenny Yurch
Can we talk through My mom is also a nurse. She's not practicing at the moment, but she's talked here and there a little bit about this like energy surge that happens at the end. And so I had a little bit of knowledge that I'd heard of. But you go through like there are things that happen. And I think that takes some of the fear out of it. You know, if you don't know anything, you just think it maybe is this random thing and what happens. But you say there are actually phases. So could you walk us through a little bit of the couple of the phases, the signs that you know when someone is nearing the end of life?
- [20:48]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Yeah, absolutely. So first let me share with you that I have been blessed and honored to be with over a thousand people at the end of life. So I have a large pool to pick from. And it's been people in all different cultures, religions. I've worked around the world. World, which is a wonderful thing as well, because we're all tied to this thing called humanity, right. Life and death. And what started to strike me immediately is that people at the end of life started, there was common themes, they started saying the same things. I was seeing some of the same things. So from a practical standpoint, let's just identify the three phases, if we will. Because what happens is I think that most people are very afraid here. They're caring for their loved ones in their home, that's having their end of life. It's overwhelming and they don't understand that what they're actually seeing is a natural part of the end of life process and not to be afraid. And that knowledge alone can change everything. So I've identified three phases of end of life. It's the shock phase initially, it's the stabilization phase, and then there's the actual transition phase. And I've also given you interventions, it's in the book for what you can do in each one of those phases. There's also a three question technique that no matter what phase and where you are in your journey with your loved one, if you ask these three questions, you'll be a phenomenal support to them. You want to ask, are there any acute issues, are there any immediate needs that I'm seeing that could be pain, nausea, anything jumping out, Are there any safety issues? Because there's two major safety issues that will always appear with an end of life decline. One day that person will not be able to stand or walk and one day that person will not be able to swallow both natural occurring things. And then what is the support system? End of life should never and cannot be done by one person. So you want to ask those three questions. And if you do that, you'll be a phenomenal support and you'll make sure the highest quality. So you've got the three phases, you've got interventions, you've Got the three question techniques. Now let's go to the emotional and spiritual side of this, because within the training and within the book, I infuse bedside stories to bring home the education in point. That is where the healing comes in. Now, I think that people love, like, oh, that's a natural. This is a natural way that the body shuts down. But the bedside stories about what people will share and the common things that they say really opens up a part of our existence and mind to something that is so much greater than maybe what we've seen. So there are three common phenomena that happen at the end of life. One is that people will wait. They will wait for someone to come to the bedside. They will wait for a date. They will wait for something to be resolved or a birthday, a birth of a baby. Now, not always, by the way, but this is very common for them to have their end of life. And. And what I'm talking about is, I'm talking about people very close to end of life, maybe even in their coma, deep sleep, coma. How do they know that somebody got to the bedside? How do they know that the birth of the baby. How do they know that it's the birthday? Like, I'll tell you a story in a minute about a birthday. That's the common thing, number one. So it's almost like they can control the time that they die. Number two is that they talk about being visited by people who've died already. And this is 72%. It's reported that 72% of people at the end of life will talk about what they call bedside visions or visitations. Now, people will say, well, they're on, you know, medication. And I've had people that are on absolutely no medication, people with better oxygen saturations than I have, talking about seeing their mother in the room with them. Now, I'm told that people come to help cross them over, which is a beautiful thing. But I also want us to know this, that. But from an energetic standpoint, knowing that someone's saying that allows us to know as nurses and teaching families that that person's actually going to be leaving us soon from the physical body. And I want to. I want to share what I feel is happening. We're holistic beings, so we have a physical, mental, emotional and physical part of us, four parts, all of us. This is what I think is happening at the end of life. As the physical body is diminishing, their spiritual bodies growing. And I feel like at one point they have one foot in this world and one foot in the next why I feel this, and I just got chills and I do this all the time, is that their energetic frequency, and this is based on physics of science, is getting ready to leave. And I've been sitting bedside with people where they've literally said, I get it now, Suzanne. I know why all of that happened. And when they say all of it, they're talking about their life review. It all made sense. Because what they're doing is they're able. What I believe is that they're able to see it through that higher wisdom perspective, the one you talk about. We can access and do the work to try and listen to that voice. It takes a lot more lifting in this human experience, but it's the key. And to me, it's life mastery. At the end of life, it organically is happening, and they're able to now have a clear lens on why everything in their life, how everything was meant to support them for their growth. And it all starts to make sense. It is the most transformative experience when you see someone come to that place of peace, come to that place of enlightenment, not only for them, but for their families. Now when they're talking about, my dad was here last night, or they're talking to their loved one, or they're telling them this happens. I've had my patients say, I'm not ready just yet. I have. There's a couple more things I need to do, like telling them to hold on, that I'm not going just yet, because they want something to be here. The opening up of an awareness that most of us are not knowing. Now, if you take end of life right now, being the number one fear right, for all of us, and then if you share the truth about this, being invited into this space, what is 72% are talking about this, this common thing, would we be fearful or would we listen to the wisdom? Because they also impart some incredible wisdom. And this was very common, what they were saying, no matter where they were in the world, about what life was about. What they want you to know are we. And I pose this question to you and your listeners, are we? And have we removed the greatest teacher about how to live?
- [26:47]
Jenny Yurch
Wow. I mean, I think it's an incredible question. And you read the book and listening to you is like, can we let it be beautiful? You know, instead of scrambling and all of those types of things, it's like. And I think the only way to do that is to have more knowledge and to know, oh, my goodness, this can look different ways. Similar to birth. You Know, like, things can look very different and it's time. Yes, yes. So when you talk about these different phases and you talk about stabilization, this is what I'm thinking in my. In my heart, you talk about that. People do a life review. They go through this internal highlight reel of their life. These are just common things that happen not 100% of the time, but a lot of times. And you say, don't rush your loved ones through it. There's this time where you come on in one on one, and you get to have the time with your loved ones. Often there's forgiveness, there's talk of regret. There's talk of sort of letting things go. And then in the transition phase, you talk about this lens of love where, you know, like, you do, you start to see your life through this entirely different lens. You have this vigil period where the dying person is in a deep sleep coma, but they can still hear. And then there's this end of life rally that often happens. This is the thing I had learned about from my mom, where people get a surge of energy and they wake up and it can be clearer than they've been in 20 or 30 years. It's their final performance. You know, even talk about performers, and they say it lasts maybe 12 hours, maybe four, maybe a day or two, but they get to give these final goodbyes and expressions of love and all of that. It makes me think, what if we missed that? And so many people are, okay, so let's.
- [28:24]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Let's stop there for a minute. Because so many people are. And the reason they are is because we are, you know, going through this craziness of trying to try this, try that, reverse, reverse, reverse. And finally, when there's just like, almost like the person is, you know, in there actively dying, Dr. Will say, okay, go to hospice. There's no time for those phases anymore. There's no time for the stabilization phase anymore. And this is where people are dramatically being impacted with really difficult grief because they start to look back, oh, my gosh, I didn't get to say anything. Like, they don't have the opportunity to support their loved one, to love their loved one, to have final conversations with their loved one. And this is crazy. Critically important to the good death. Critically important. And I think that all of us look back on our lives and want to know that it meant something, that we made a difference. And then we also look back on our lives and want to make sense of things that we've probably been avoiding or carrying around with us. And that's where the forgiveness comes in not just forgiveness of others, but forgiveness of ourselves. And it's such an organic, beautiful thing. It's so important to have the ability to have a supported end of life. And we can't do that when we're pretending it doesn't exist.
- [29:41]
Jenny Yurch
And so by learning about those different phases, it helps you to protect them and to realize how important they are and how that's gonna affect for generations to come. I'm sure that obviously there's instances where people die suddenly in different accidents and things like that, but if there's the option to have this experience where you get to talk things through, then that's gonna leave a very. A lengthy impact on others and the things that you learn there in those end stages. So I was very grateful to learn about it. You talked about how everyone is afraid of dying. Let me read it. I know they say death is the number one fear in the world, but having been privileged to be with many, many people at the end of life, my experience has shown that the fear of death itself isn't the main issue for most, it's the regrets. So this is a conversation, like you said, we're kind of straddling both sides here. Here we're talking about providing and helping provide a good death experience for your loved ones. How do you create that environment? What are the things that you do? But on the flip side is, how do you create a good life? And so can you talk about the things that people often say that they regret?
- [30:48]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
I can. And so this is so important for all of us to hear. And my life completely changed the first day I started working with those at the end of life because my perspective on everything changed at the end of life. People think they have more time. So we put things off right, and we stay small in our journey, stay safe. And meanwhile, that's the most unsafe thing you could possibly do, is stay in that little container. I know I was supposed to do something, but I just, you know, I'll get to it later. I'll do that when and when the end of life comes up. And they do have a time limit given to them now. They say, oh, my gosh, I didn't live. And so this is the regret. And I want you to know that time is your most valuable commodity by far, and how you choose to spend it and who you choose to spend it with. Most important question and answer that you can ever ask yourself. I don't know how many days I have. I hope I have plenty. But that's up to a higher Something that I'm not going to worry about. I'm going to make sure that I live each day with again, following my heart, guidance and stepping out of my comfort zone and pursuing my passion and calling. Because we're all here for a reason. And so that's the regret that people have. It's not the death, it's that it's been over. And so one of the things that we want to take away is that you have a human part of you and a being part. If we can break it down, a human being. Right. And we see this at the end of life. We kind of talked about that, we touched about that. When that spiritual body of energy becomes the prominent before it leaves the physical body. And you have two directions. You have an ego that's going to direct you, usually based on fear and staying small. And you have a heart, guidance, wisdom, that's going to be directing you to your purpose, to your calling and to your contribution on something so much bigger when you can learn to listen to that. And then what I call inspired guidance, because we all get it. But then it's up to us to take inspired action. Your whole life will break open in the most miraculous ways that you could ever imagine. And one of the things we don't want to do is get to the end of this journey and regret that we haven't lived, which is most people are having right now.
- [32:53]
Jenny Yurch
And this is what you wrote and you talked about it earlier. We have lost the sacred connection to death, which can be our greatest teacher about life. And you said earlier you want to treat each day like one little lifetime. And if you were to do that, it means that you have the concept of death right there with you, knowing that your time is limited. And so you're more able to live and not have those regrets because of the perspective that you have about limited time here on earth. And I love that, I love that. I love how much I got out of the book. Because like you said, it's not just about the end of life. It's also about what's going on in your day to day life and how you're choosing to live.
- [33:37]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Yeah. I wanna share with you, if I can about the common things that people say at the end of life. Yes, this is really important, this wisdom. So, you know, one of the things I had already shared is that they say that everything happened for a reason. That and it makes sense now. All of those things they went through were opportunities for them to grow. They were for their growth not happening to them, but happening for them, which is a very different way to look at things. And by the way, growth is painful. So let's acknowledge that. And a lot of times we hang on to anger, resentment, and sometimes it takes us quite a long time to look at something differently because it's hard when we're in it, but they're able to look at it that way. The other thing they say is that we're all connected, which is so beautiful. They talk about how there's no judgment. They talk about how they're going home. They talk about this, I'm going home, like to somewhere that they've known before. As they get closer. And this is so incredibly peaceful and healing. And I want to also, because in the book it talks about the studies with psilocybin. So there's studies being done now working with real fear people, patients at the end of life, terminal patients who have a real fear of death. In the medical centers, they're using psilocybin, which known as magic mushrooms and some other ones that use that to break through the fear. And what people say when they have the psilocybin, what people have said with near death experiences and what I'm seeing with my patients at the end of life, they're saying the exact same things. We're all connected. It was all about learning unconditional love. Like, this is really important information because if I listen to people at the end of life, by the way, they're not trying to sell you anything. So it's very important. And when people are saying the same things, if they're saying that we're all connected, would I be wishing ill on someone? Would I be bombing someone? Would I be. And again, I'm not trying to get political or get into a fault finding scenario here. I'm trying to talk about would I show up with presence and with compassion and love, not just to people, but to this beautiful planet, to the animals? Would I practice more of the presence of the. Of the moment? What about our children? And I'd love to talk a little bit about the children and end of life because they are our little masters. And what we. One of, in my opinion, one of the greatest things we could possibly do is let them know that end of life is a natural part of the life cycle. Age appropriately early on. Because what we're seeing today is the children that were shielded, tried to be protected, you know, told the wrong things and inadvertently set them up with a very fearful relationship with end of life that is cellular and grained. That is a very traumatic thing. For them. Yeah.
- [36:21]
Jenny Yurch
And you have resources in the book. I wanted to talk about that. In the appendix. You talk about prolonged grief disorder, what to say to someone who's grieving, which is incredibly valuable. I think a lot of times we just don't even know what to do or say. You have a checklist, a loving reminder checklist to heal from grief and then how to talk to kids about death. We have five kids, and one of the five in particular ask more questions than the others. And she has asked, if I die first, will you be there? You know, these are the types of things that's actually a really deep question like, will you be there already? Is that kind of an emotional question? You know that kids, they do, they have these thoughts and I think partly, like you're saying, because of the way that the society is set up, like we're uncomfortable with these conversations, we don't know what to say. And a book like yours, the Good Death, is just a really incredible set of tools and also a good jumping off point to start to learn about some of these things that we don't talk about as a society. So I really appreciated what was in the appendix.
- [37:24]
C
Some people just know they could save.
- [37:26]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to check the Jumbotron.
- [37:31]
C
First before attempting to eat a stack.
- [37:33]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Of supreme nachos in one bite.
- [37:35]
C
Now you're just a meme that everyone.
- [37:37]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Shares on game day. Checking first is smart, so check Allstate.
- [37:40]
C
First for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate.
- [37:44]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Northbrook, Illinois Imagine what's possible when.
- [37:52]
C
Learning doesn't get in the way of life at Capella University. Our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace.
- [38:01]
Jenny Yurch
That works for you.
- [38:02]
C
It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
- [38:21]
Jenny Yurch
This episode is brought to you by.
- [38:23]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Indeed, when your computer breaks, you don't wait for it to magically start working again.
- [38:28]
Jenny Yurch
You fix the problem. So why wait to hire the people.
- [38:32]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Your company desperately needs? Use indeed sponsored jobs to hire top talent fast. And even better, you only pay for results. There's no need to wait. Speed up your hiring with a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply.
- [38:51]
Jenny Yurch
I appreciated this questions list. And it was for. I can't even remember what the purpose was. I wrote down, it's on page 187. It's kind of like almost a quality conversation, sort of near the end life review. Get a notebook. And it's this list of, I don't know, maybe 20 questions or so. Tell me about your wedding. What's your favorite memory from your career? What or who was the hardest loss of your life? What makes you last last laugh the most? Where have you traveled? And I thought, my goodness, even just this to take and go ask the grandparents, make a little book together like before. They're further down the path, you know, take it now and use that. Get you thinking too about your own life.
- [39:32]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
It really does. It's, it's prompting. It has multiple benefits to doing it. What I would suggest, especially with children, is let the children ask the grandparents these questions and videotape it. I mean, how sweet is that? And don't wait for them to be at the end of their life lives. Do it now. And it's just so interesting how we've lost the storytelling. Like, you know, my dad, he. He's one of, you know, he's a very, very smart man and he's very well read. And then when Google came along, I would ask him questions I remember asking, and he'd say, ask Google. It's like, you know, we've. We've kind of replaced the elders, their value. And it's. And it's really very sad. They're still all there. They're wisdom keepers. But we've kind of lost the storytelling. And sometimes we don't even know a lot about their journey. So that's a great way. It also really helps them to realize, wow, what a full journey this has been. And if there's anything, oh, I wanted to do that thing or I wanted to write that, let me get to that. Let me make sure I put that on the list and make sure it's done. But it's something that you can keep in your family forever, and that's really incredibly valuable.
- [40:39]
Jenny Yurch
Now, what I found from this book, Suzanne, the Good Death, is that there were layered benefits. You know, you're learning about the phases, but then you're, you're also thinking about your own life, but then you're also thinking about your children and how should we be teaching them? And you're thinking about your parents or other generations and so it's interesting, it was interesting how layered and deep that the book takes you.
- [41:01]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
I feel this. If I may, Jen Ginny. I feel like there's three sections or three really main things. I think it's an empowering book with the information again you just shared. I think it's a healing book. So many people have told me that this book has helped heal their grief. Grief they've been holding on, which I didn't. I didn't expect that. I didn't expect that people that have had children have their end of life, have had held onto grief with parents for 30, 40 years, that this learning healed their grief, shifted it, which is incredibly beautiful. And then it's inspiring about learning how to live. So I feel like it's, it's that. And you're right, it. There's so much in there. And one of the things that just from, if, if we have people that just from a very practical standpoint, I want to point out that the peace of mind planner in that last section of that book, just the financial piece of Planner, has so many easy things that you can do to secure your assets, that your family doesn't go into a scavenger hunt and that it doesn't get dragged through other systems that are very easy things that you can do. Again, if we don't have knowledge in this space space. What I have found right now is that we don't talk about end of life. It shows up for families and then the person dies and the family has to go into the next whole crazy set of trying to figure out where things are and they don't have time to grieve and lots of money spent and it's just families are fighting make sure. I think it's all of our responsibilities to make sure that, you know, we secure and there's easy ways to do it. This is not big lift everybody. Easy as far as, you know, just some of the pearls in there. The book has so much value on so many levels. And I think, I think one of the most important things is learning how to live. Because at the end of the day, a good death is a good life. And then what does that really mean? You know, this one patient of mine, he was 80 years old and he had five children and he. I met him and he just the first day he had acceptance. And I said, what is this? How does this man have acceptance? He didn't have a lot of material things, but he had a sweet home and a lot of love. A wealthy, wealthy home. He had the wherewithal to know that one day that journey would come to an end. And he had lived connected and loved his family and had friends and enjoyed his time that when the day showed up, he was able to say, okay.
- [43:24]
Jenny Yurch
It is incredible how layered the book is and how much you get out of it. It. I have heard many, many, many stories where people say, I don't talk to my sibling anymore after my father died, after our father died, or, you know, because something happened. I just talked to this man. His name is Levi Lesko. He's a pastor. He's got a book coming out soon called Blessed Are the Spiraling. They lost a daughter, suddenly, just very tragic. And then Levi's dad passed away in the last year or so, and he had the statistic that the Average person spends 300 hours sorting through estate and paperwork and that type of thing. And who wants to do that when you're grieving? 300 hours. That's so much time. So I do. We haven't talked about this at all, but part of the book is a workbook where you actually go through and what you've done is you have helped people understand the different phases. And what do you want your care to look like? What do you want your funeral to look like? Some people call it a funeral. How do you want to be remembered after, you know, you've passed away? Is there any music? All of these different things and the financial piece, it's all of it. So there is this workbook book that's right in the book that would get you to start to think about all of these different questions. And it's like the types of things that you don't consider. Like when you go to get married and, you know, I. I play the piano. So people will be like, can you play the piano for the wedding? And so then I would come to them and I say, well, you know, this. What do you want the music for? To be the prelude, you know, before the ceremony starts. And then when the bridal party walks down the aisle. And then you need a song for when the bride walks. And what's the song for when everybody leaves? And what's the song for when you're dismissing your guests? And they don't know because they've not gotten married before, so they don't know that you have to fill in all the blanks of the worksheet. And that's obviously a very simple example, but I think this is similar to where you don't know. So you go through all of these different questions and you would fill them Out. So it's incredible that you were able to put the workbook actually right in the book along with all of the information as well.
- [45:20]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Yeah, it's a step by step planner. And it really came from. There's five different categories what prevented my patients from having a good death. These are the things that kept them up at night, prevented them from having ease at that last phase because they weren't done. And so I was able to categorize them in five categories and then literally give you step by step questions to answer. I want to tell you a story, if I may. A doula giver, certified doula giver, was working with a patient with end stage liver cancer recently. And she said, you know, let's have a conversation, let's talk about. And this man was like, you know, I'm at the end of my journey. And she sat down and she started sharing with him all of the choices that he had. And all of a sudden this session went from, wow, I feel like I'm losing control of my life and depressed and end of life to wow. I can choose where I want to be. I can choose my life celebration. I can choose the music that's going to be played. I can choose the food that's going to be there. I can choose how I want to be. Like, he lightened up. And this is amazing. It's also one of the greatest gifts you can give your family. They are going to be going through a very difficult time saying goodbye to your physical being that you are. When you give them a blueprint and a roadmap how to support you and what they can do, it gives them a channel to put that energy that goes. You said that people fight at the end of life when anger gets misdirected and when we have end of life show up and it doesn't go well because how can it if it just is coming from left field? You fight with your siblings, you fight with different people. There's lots of stress involved. And people sometimes times their families break apart. This should never, ever be. And again, if I do my due diligence by making sure I have, you know, all of my assets. And it doesn't take a lot, by the way, guys, it does not take a lot. Then it is so much easier on my family and it's my responsibility to do that so that they don't have to go into that scavenger hunt. One of the greatest gifts.
- [47:12]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah, I want to read one section of these questions so people can get a sense of what it. It is. So These are. You go through the choices for these different. These different stages. So this is choices for the sacred vigil period. The vigil period is the time right before someone dies. It usually lasts anywhere from three days to just a few hours. During this time, the dying person is usually in a deep sleep coma, but they can still hear. And these are some of the questions. Who do you want to be present with you at the time of your death? How do you want your surroundings to look? How do you want your surroundings to smell? Smell? How do you want your surroundings to sound? How do you want your environment to feel? Do you have any special rituals you want to implement at the time of death? Are there any special readings or prayers you would like to be shared during the vigil period? Would you like family and loved ones to share stories of how you touch their lives throughout your lifetime? What are the most important things you want people to know about this moment? Do you have any special requests? And then choices for immediately after death? You know, how do you want to look? You know, do you want to have your hair done, your makeup done on your nails? Do you want to smell a certain way? How would you like to be dressed? All of these different things. And it would, it would be such a gift to your loved ones to have these decisions made. And then obviously, like you said, it gives that person some agency in a shaky time.
- [48:29]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
It is a shaky time and they usually don't know what to do. And you're actually lovingly giving them how to support you. This is my favorite dress. This is the scent I would like on. This is. I'd like you to share the stories. In fact, there's. If we want to go even further, writing love letters, what I call love letters, and letting people read things. You can even have something for after you're not. This is such an important moment. And I know that we're talking about a lot of things in this book, but I also want to stress the fact that when that person has their end of life, there's an imprinting that happens. And I think this is really important for people to hear. It's almost like when the ducks imprint when they're born immediately after that person is not in that body anymore. That directly is going to affect how that grief and bereavement period goes. Right now it's not going well. They have proven in multiple studies and this has been known by ancient cultures that slowing that time down. And there's something about a three day wake and home funeral. But we don't have to go that far, if you don't want to, even for a few hours, is so important for you to really get grounded in this moment. But here's what. What I think is happening because it's so healing. I think that many of my family said that when their mom is not breathing anymore in that body and they're in that room and they're slowing it down, they feel her. And sometimes they talk about feeling her love more powerfully than ever before. And there's something that I think in your mind, your soul and your body says, wow, she's here. And there's something incredibly important about that, that time period. So slowing it down, bringing ritual back in and. Yeah. Do we even talk about. Yes. Would you like your hairbrush? Would you like a certain outfit? It gives them a roadmap on how to support you and how to channel their grief that they're going through in one of the most beautiful ways. And if you want to leave them a note or write a eulogy in first person. I've never heard anything, anything that's more impactful than listening to somebody's words addressing their loved ones when they're not physically here. It is unbelievably gorgeous. So it's something you can consider as well, because they will be hurting and you can share with them whatever you want to say.
- [50:45]
Jenny Yurch
I'd never heard of that, a eulogy written in first person. And that was one of the most striking parts of the book, in my opinion. You can see how when you talked about the three layers of this book, that it's empowering, that it's healing, that it's inspiring. It's also, obviously teaching you so much as well. But that healing part, because for so many, it's been rushed or it's been frantic in all of the different ways that you've talked about. And so they haven't gotten this. And so you could see how someone, maybe someone passed decades ago, that they read the book, and it is very healing for them. Like, you have this one. One spot where the little girl goes in and her grandma says, honey, it's okay. It's so beautiful. Don't be afraid. You know, those things are very healing. And you have the spot where the one person was in her deep sleep coma. And I don't. I might get the details wrong, and we're sort of running out of time, but it was something like, you know, she'd sort of stopped eating and drinking, and you think usually it's a couple days, but she wanted to make sure that she was there till her 100th birthday. So you read these stories and it. It does. It takes away some of the fear and the unknown. But I did want to talk about this. Eulogies written in first person. It's where the dying person writes their own eulogy in the first person prior to their death so that it can be read by a loved one at their funeral. I've never heard of this, but I just found it to be so powerful. I want to read just a teeny bit of this person's. This example. As for regrets, I've had a few. As the song lyrics said, I regret losing my temper, not reaching out as often as I could have, not telling people I love them as much as I should have. As most of you know, I could be really stubborn and I had a temperature temper sometimes. I was unyielding. And I could be unforgiving at times too. I regret wasting time with pride and lack of forgiveness. If I'm going to offer you any advice, it would be to put your ego aside and just love everything and everyone as much as you can. It would be to enjoy every moment you can to the fullest. In the midst of whatever brings you pain, don't forget to notice all the beauty that exists. There's a lot of it if you just look. I've also regretted not doing some of the things I always wanted to do. But from my perspective now, as I sit and write this in my last days, what I didn't do no longer matters much. From this vantage point, I really did live a full life. And my bucket list is complete. All my previous complaints are in the past. I let them go like balloons in the sky. Besides, what I did get to do was a lot. I got to have a career that went beyond what I ever thought I'd accomplish. And I got to travel to some beautiful places. I got to express myself through my paintings, and I got to appreciate the art that others created. All of that was wonderful. But nothing compares to the extraordinary family I got to be a part of. In all the moments I got to spend with the people in my life. That's what I'm carrying with me the most. And it goes on, you know, and he goes to each specific person. To my wife, to my son, to my daughter, to my brother, to my best friend, Phil. And I thought, I didn't even know this was a thing, you know, death.
- [53:38]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Is having a rebirth. And because we're opening up the conversation, I think that, you know, everything kind of cycles sometimes. But because we're so far Dysfunctional with end of life is that when we're opening this up now, we're not only opening up, okay, let's talk about it. It's, you know, empowering what it looks like, but we're opening up all of these other choices, like dying to be green options like funerals, like eulogies in first person. And that is incredible because there has been been no probably more powerful energy than hearing the words from somebody's. Imagine people just say goodbye to somebody they love. They're in that grief, they're thick in that moment. And now somebody is addressing, reading their words to them. It's like, wow, you're right. Like, I've never experienced really anything like that. And I'll also say is that I think even your best of best friends will probably not describe you and say exactly what you would about you. So I think it's very important for you to use your moment of your words to address people and how you want to.
- [54:41]
Jenny Yurch
You wrote the very first training that you gave. There wasn't an empty seat in the room that day. I realized people were hungry for this information, and that's how I felt. We got the inquiry about, you know, this book comes out in March. We're recording it in March. By the time this podcast goes live, the book will be available. But like, you know, you talk about going outside for your health and for when you're a caregiver and these different things you talk about green funeral options and different types of things. So there are some parallels there. But more than anything, I thought, huh, I haven't really learned much about this. And maybe people listening, they haven't really learned much about it either. And then when I got the book, I was like, this is so good. It's so good. So deeply layered in terms of how it will impact your life. And so, Suzanne, this has been such an honor. The book is called the Good Depth Death by Suzanne B. O'Brien, registered nurse. A guide for supporting your loved one through the end of life. You could also take the free training. It comes in 15 languages and I'll make sure I put the links there. It is a free family caregivers training. You have a professional death doula course as well. What an honor. Thank you for coming on and talking about this topic that many people have not heard of. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [55:55]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
That was outside. Ah, I have to tell you something. I love the outside. I. I can't. And I love Central Park. It's one of my favorite places. I feel like watching the sun go down and it still is as a child. I think it puts everything in awe in. It all makes sense to me. It's almost like that metaphor of living life in one little lifetime. The beauty is there there. The awe is there, the sun going down. About how much this is a gift, this life's journey. And I think I knew it from a young age that it's, you know, impermanence but beautiful and all of it at the same time. And I still am out there watching the sunsets.
- [56:40]
Jenny Yurch
A daily reminder.
- [56:42]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Daily reminder.
- [56:43]
Jenny Yurch
Chapters close and books end. And.
- [56:45]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
And. And the beauty and the love is. Is always there. There comes. Yeah. Always there.
- [56:50]
Jenny Yurch
Suzanne, this has been very wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time to put this information in a book. And thank you so much for taking the time to come and talk about it with this audience and with me. I know that everyone will really, really appreciate it.
- [57:03]
Suzanne B. O'Brien
Thank you so much for having me.