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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 449: An Adventure Doesn’t Occur Until There’s a Flop | Thom Barrett, Living While Dying
00:54:57
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- [00:00]
Andrew Hawk
Do you want your teenager to go on the adventure of a lifetime, all the while learning the ability to know God's truth, discern wisely and take godly action in the world? My name is Andrew Hawk and I'm the Camp Director at the Excel Summer Leadership Camp. Every summer we take teenagers on two week adventures to help them grow in their leadership, discernment and Christlike character. Between camping, rock climbing, hiking and whitewater rafting, campers build lifelong friendships while also training in Excel College's game changing critical thinking method. They'll learn to filter through the cultural messages of the day with Godly wisdom and to learn how to apply those in the method in real life context through wilderness first aid and CPR training. A few months ago I received a message from Melissa, one of our past campers, when her mom and her were overseas. Her mother got injured and she used her training to make a huge difference, according to doctors, to be able to get help when it was needed. We love to hear stories like this. Not only do campers lead with practical skills, but also with a deeper faith in Jesus and lifelong community. I want to personally invite your teenager to join us this summer by going to theexcelcamp.org to learn more. That's theexcelcamp.org welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast.
- [01:07]
Jenny Urich
My name is Jenny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have read a book and then I have another book about a man who is a wonderful adventurer and who really gives us perspective on how to live the life we want to live. The book I read is called Living While My Cancer Journey. The author, Tom Barrett is with us. Welcome Tom.
- [01:25]
Tom Barrett
Hey, thank you very much. I'm so excited to be part of.
- [01:28]
Jenny Urich
The show here, so I would love to just kick it off because you are such an adventurer. I survived an avalanche in Alaska while helicopter skiing. Never heard of that. Falling off a 20 foot cliff while ski mountaineering in Colorado, Almost being drowned off the coast of Cape Cod when a riptide unexpectedly took me out to sea. Wrist capsizing while solo kayaking off the coast of Newfoundland while trying to navigate 18 foot waves hanging perilously on the side of a mountain at the base of matterhorn. Rafting Class 4 rapids out of South America, sea kayaking in Alaska, living out of a truck, camper, a Jeep. You made these? You made your own campers and you're a craftsman. You know, you do all this woodworking, so kicking it off. Most of us are just on our phones. Where did this sense of Adventure start. I mean, these are huge adventures tomorrow.
- [02:18]
Tom Barrett
That's a great question. And actually, I. I know the point in time when. When my. The penny dropped, right? When the switch was flipped, so to speak. 1996, turned 40 years old. I'm. I'm a successful business person. I was a partner at Price Waterhouse Coopers. Two daughters, teaching them, coaching them, doing all kinds of things that, you know, parents do, loving every moment of it. But I needed to find a way where I could recharge myself, because we all need, you know, we work hard and, you know, our children, we. We give all we can whenever we can, but I felt myself starting to drag, and I needed to be recharged. And I'm a go big or go home kind of guy. So I didn't just, you know, go to the beach where I could. I just. I have to go to places that are remote, where no one can get me. They can't find me, they can't call me. Technology doesn't come. And so it's funny that since 96 to now, my definition of remoteness has changed as the technology's changed. Right before, I could go up to Maine, you know, and just go up there, and that's sufficient. But now I have to go to Antarctica or the Polars to find that remoteness. But that's what instigated it. And then being an active person, I always wanted to find something where I could be doing a new event, whether it's biking from Prague to Budapest or diving in the cenotes. So everything was always about an activity, remoteness. And then as my children got older, engaging them with me to do that as well. So I've had this passion going on now for, oh, close to 30 years.
- [03:57]
Jenny Urich
Okay, Tom. I actually think this is very intriguing because I would say that most people who would do these types of grand adventures, you know, you're in the Galapagos. I mean, I don't even know where that is. I know how to say it, but you were on a catamaran for a week, sailing and diving around the Galapagos Islands. You've canoed the Amazon River. You've swam with piranhas. You've stayed at an Eagle Lodge in the Ecuador jungle. You've done a lot of this with especially one of your daughters you say is a little more adventurous and one is a little less. And you're like, it's totally fine however adventurous you are. But you've done a lot of these with. With your kids. And to me, you know, people start that when they're 19. It's very interesting to me for someone to sort of hit what most people would consider midlife and jump into that unknown.
- [04:42]
Tom Barrett
Ah, I know, I, and, and it's funny, when I went from high school to college, I didn't, When I was a junior in college, junior in high school, I had no interest in going to college. You know, my dad's a musician, so it was a hand to mouth existence, which is cool, and that's what we lived. But someone turned me on to the fact that you seem to be a smart guy, go to college. Right. And so I did, and I've lost my train of thought. I'm sorry.
- [05:08]
Jenny Urich
So you go to college and then, you know, you sort of, it seems like you sort of entered into this life that most people enter into, which is a professional career.
- [05:16]
Tom Barrett
Yeah. So. So from, from the very beginning, yeah, this is adventure, believe it or not, has been critical to me even when I was working, because I grew up in the 70s. And so when I graduated from college in 1978, technology is nothing like it was today. And I decided, for whatever reason that I wanted to be on that edge of technology. So I wanted to be an adventurer in that context. But I didn't want to have both feet in there. So I said, what is the most practical thing I could do? Oh, be an accountant. Everyone needs an accountant, right? Everyone needs someone who understands their business. And I merged the two. And boy, I had to tell you the ride I took through the 80s and 90s, helping companies understand how technology can benefit them. And mostly it was in the business side of most companies where it was embraced in their general ledger, their accounting systems, et cetera. And then as technology got better, it became more adventuresome in terms of the Internet and, you know, having disintermediation take place. And I was all part of that. I was part of, of going over to India, helping the data center, the companies over there, understand the mindset of Americans in terms of what do we really need here in terms of control. So I guess adventuring has been in my blood from a very early, early stage. And so when I turned midlife age 40, I wanted to continue to embrace that, but embrace it in a different way. And that was like, let's be outside, let's experience Mother Nature in ways that I hadn't before. And I consider myself an everyday Joe, right. I'm not, I'm not climbing a mountain for the first time, right. I'm not venturing off like, you know, the Shackleton down to the Antarctica for the first time, though, I have done those things and to me, they're my first time. And so I still get to experience, because I'm doing it, you know, with minimal support. I get to experience what they experience in my own way. And so that to me, a very invigorating thing. Or you see a sunrise that not too many people can see in a place that not too many people visit. So I've tried to approach things in a very everyday joke kind of mindset, but doing things that are a little bit tougher than what most people would accept as a tolerant vacation.
- [07:42]
Jenny Urich
Well, I think people are going to find your story so inspiring because not only did you sort of kick off these outdoor adventures at 40, which I think a lot of people, when they get to 40, they think maybe I've wasted the last couple decades just at work or, you know, doing these sort of non adventurous things. But like you said, there's a lot of life left to live. So that's inspiring. And also you've done it while having cancer. And so that's another piece of the puzzle too. You've actually had cancer several times. We'll get there. This is also part of the story. You have still gone out and really fought for quality of life. So your professional life, you call it an adventure. And I think that's cool that you did that. Risk and controls consultant and then you hit 40 and you're like, I'm going to take these adventures and twist them into something different. What's intriguing to me. And you talked about this, you say you like the planning. How did you even find this stuff?
- [08:32]
Tom Barrett
Wow, that's, you know, something I never even thought about that question, I guess. Well, I do. In 96, I sat down and wrote myself a bucket list of over 100 items. You know, simple things. Sunset, to see the sunset on every continent, to at least, you know, kayak these following rivers or to experience these kind of things. And so that bucket list I have used to drive what I do. So now, as you're starting to think about this, my game plan starting to get a little more focused. A I need to be remote and I need to be doing something different in terms of my bucket list items. And so that's what drove me to do what I do. I think my first, first trip that was of a venture kind and I had no right doing it because I had zero qualifications to do it. And that is there is this particular route, hiking route in Europe called the Haute Route H A U T E rote that goes from Chamonix to Zermatt. Most people do it during the summertime when it's a nice, leisurely hike through the mountains. And there is a tremendous hut system that exists within Europe. Well, I found that there was a man who was a guide, a skier guide, ski mountaineering guide, who did in the wintertime. So I went on this trip. And the funny part to this story is that I. I con my brother to join me. He's a younger brother. And I told him, we're going skiing in Europe. And he was like, thumbs up. This is good, right? And I knew in the back of his head he was going, yeah. I mean, we're going to have some glue vine, and we're going to have, you know, Racquelette, and we're going to be eating like kings and skiing and then maybe chase a few, you know, young ladies along the way. And I didn't tell him that he needed to work on his avalanche skills, that we're going to be climbing mountains, repelling mountains. But when I did that, I realized that I learned so much about myself from that trip. And that became my mantra, right, in terms of I want to do trips where I can really extend myself so I can really understand better who I am, what I can't do, and when I can do it. And I didn't realize at the time that that was my beginning of my understanding of my limitations. But in those days, I didn't have any. It's like, I'm going to give as much I can. But I learned a lot in that first trip. And then since then, it's been. It's been crazy.
- [11:02]
Jenny Urich
Okay, Well, I would think that. I mean, personally, it's like, okay, if you adventure and you go camping at the local campground, you take your kids camping, and it's a flop. Sometimes things are flops. It's like, Well, I spent $30 a night. We bought a tent. It was a hundred bucks. Okay. You know, we come home, it was a flop. These are huge adventures. And so were you ever nervous? Like, you're investing a lot of time, maybe a lot of resources. I'm going to the Galapagos Islands on a catamaran. Were you ever scared? Like, what if it's a flop?
- [11:35]
Tom Barrett
Oh, you know what? It's interesting, Jenny. The worry of a flop wasn't a worry. You know, I was. I was fearful of other things. You know, was I in shape for it? Did I have the skill set for it? Things that I could correct if I did my homework enough right, which I usually did. But I have this attitude of an adventure doesn't occur until there's a flop. Because before that it's just a trip. And so, yeah, I took a trip to the Galapagos. Now if there was an issue like, you know, air tank fouled up or, you know, we had a difficult time in terms of there was a tremendous windstorm that caused us to be offshore, you know, to be off, off route, ah, we've just gone from a trip to an adventure. And that's what it's about, isn't it? Seeing how you respond and how you accept it. And the other thing, this is important because, and I'll tell you why in a second, I also have a rating system. To me, fun can be categorized in four levels. Fun one, we all know what it is. Someone tells a joke, you laugh, that's funny, it's immediate. Fun two is, all right, I'm in the midst of a walk. We're going up a pretty steep hill. I'm sweating like a son of a gun. I'm not really enjoying the moment. But as soon as you hit that, that summit, that saddle, that pass where you look out and say, ah, ah. Okay, that's fun too because there was a reason for it right now sometimes like this whole trout trip where day after day after day of doing that, sweating, not having that much fun, being exhausted, it's like, really, why am I doing this? But then when you get home and you start telling the stories to your friends, you say, ah, that's fun three, it's not immediate. And then fun four. I can use my daughter Alice as an example where we took a trip down to Belize. Summertime, beautiful weather. She suffered hyperthermia twice. How do you suffer hyperthermia in the summer in the tropics? Well, one of our challenges was to figure out where this river actually started. So we're in the jungle, we're hiking along this river and I had a guide and we're hiking the river and then the river comes to a mountain, big old cave and we take our stuff off, jump into the water and then swim with our headlamps to where it started. Well, I thought, I was thinking maybe at most is going to be a 15 minute swim. Oh no. Two hours in, two hours out. So here's my 16 year old daughter who is, she's tall but skinny, zero body fat, great condition, but she was hyperthermic during that and then she got hyperthermic next day because it was lingering. She would not go on a vacation with me again for years. But now after about 10 years, she said, you know, that was pretty fun. That's Fun four, where it takes a long time for it to get through.
- [14:37]
Jenny Urich
But anyhow, Fun four is a decade. A decade later she's just now she's.
- [14:42]
Tom Barrett
39 and now she's entertaining about doing travel with that again because she thinks she's strong enough that it took that long for it to go out. So yeah, so a flop, not a worry because that transformed from a trip to an adventure for me. And you know, it's a positive mindset, right? How do you deal with it? How do you respond to it? How do you react to it? It doesn't matter. Even miss flights. It's all part of the flopping, which is all part of the adventure.
- [15:04]
Jenny Urich
It's so inspiring then to just go for things and to not have that fear.
- [15:08]
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- [16:21]
Christy Wright
Hey friends, I'm Annie F. Downs, author, speaker, podcaster and part of the that Sounds Fun Network. And I'm a big fan of seeing God move in our everyday lives. Can we talk for a second about what it really means to be a person of faith? It's waking up every day and choosing to trust him even when life feels uncertain. It's standing firm in truth, walking in grace and knowing that God is always with us. But I know staying rooted in faith is not always easy. At least it isn't for me. And that's why I love Glorify, the number one Christian devotional app designed to help you start, grow and strengthen your relationship with God every single day. One of the things I love about Glorify is the amount of options available to me through the app every day. Not only does it help me kick off my time with God with their daily devotional, but there's a song of the day to listen to and a community of other users available to engage with. It's really cool. With Glorify, you can begin your morning in scripture, reflect with the daily devotional, and end the day with the daily walk with God. This immersive experience that quiets your heart and refocuses your spirit. It's one of my favorite hacks. Something simple but powerful that keeps you anchored when life gets busy. And since we're shining a light on women this month, let's celebrate the strength, faith, and stories of women who inspire us every day. And for the men listening, think about how you're uplifting the women of faith in your life. Join me and over 20 million believers who have found encouragement through Glorify. Download the app today@glorifi-app.com podcast and let's keep walking in faith together again. That's glorifi-app.com podcast.
- [18:02]
Jenny Urich
You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns.
- [18:10]
Tom Barrett
McDonald's breakfast comes first.
- [18:15]
Jenny Urich
So many people are wanting to live out of their, their car, camper, their, you know, they're going to drag along a camper, they're going to take a bus and they're going to renovate it. Because in this day and age, there's a lot more opportunities to work remotely, right? You did this, you did a three month bill. Talk to us all about your DIY car camper.
- [18:32]
Tom Barrett
All right, so it's important to put this in context. So in 2015, I was diagnosed with cancer and again, being a go big, go home kind of guy, I said, all right, stage one, I, I got this, I can beat it. And so we had, so I had it removed, right, Figuring, okay, if that's the problem, let's get rid of that, no more problem. And it worked. But in the truth. And so I had the, I had the surgery in 2016, the summer thereof, and I had to rehab and fortunately, I'm a woodworker. And so I said to myself, I said, all right, what can I do with my time? I decided to build the camper I hadn't thought about it beforehand, but I said, why not? Right? And at the same time, I wanted to be a ski mom. So when I turned 60, which is right around this time, I wanted to be a ski bum. And so I built the camper so I could exactly do that, where I would venture off in winter time. So it had to have a heater in it. It had to have, you know, certain amenities, and I had them all. It had a heater, it had stove, it had running water, had a, you know, bed over the cab, insulated. It worked out super. And if you were to look at it, you would say, oh, that's a, that's a pretty, it didn't look like a dirt yourself, right? It looked professional. And I, I, I had a blast on it. I lived in three months, did it for three, three years, four years living out of that thing. Had some great experience going through, you know, Wyoming and, and Colorado and Utah in the middle of wintertime. It was super. Nothing better than opening up the back of your door and seeing the snow come down, drinking your little cup of coffee, and seeing buffalo hanging out right next to you.
- [20:15]
Jenny Urich
Freaking unbelievable, this nomadic life that you did. And you, you said you had to have, you had to especially figure out where to put all your skis because you had a bunch of different kinds of skis, right?
- [20:28]
Tom Barrett
Well, we just didn't, I just didn't go with one pair. I had to go with cross country skis. I've got my rock skis, I've got my backcountry skis, I've got my downhill skis. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a, there's an art, art to it. There's a, there's a whole different gear when you are backcountry skiing. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but you can ski up mountains, right? So that you can ski down the other side, believe it or not.
- [20:52]
Jenny Urich
Okay, so explain. I, I've actually never, I've never skied except for a teeny bit of cross country skiing when I was like a kid, right?
- [21:00]
Tom Barrett
So, you know, this is, so you know what the ski of a cross country ski looks like. And if it's, if it's the, and there's scales on the bottom of those skis if you ever really took a close look at it. And the reason why those scales exist, so as you move up, up on the snow, it'll go nice and smooth. But when you put your weight down to try to take the next step, those scales stop the ski from Sliding. All right, now when you cross country ski, you're not going up this kind of terrain. You're usually this way. So to help in that regard, you put on the bottom of your skis this thing called the skin, which is mohair. And mohair has a unique property where when it goes forward, it's nice and smooth, but if there's any resistance, starts going back. It's like those scales in the bottom of the cross country ski where they become abrupt like this and stop you from sliding backwards.
- [21:49]
Jenny Urich
Oh, you know what it reminds me of? Whenever you get a rental car and you like are going to go to return it and you go over those like really scary spikes and if you're like, like don't back up.
- [22:00]
Tom Barrett
Right.
- [22:00]
Jenny Urich
Like that.
- [22:01]
Tom Barrett
Right, that's exactly the thing. That's a great, that's a great analogy. So that you don't, you can't back up and so you can just ski up. Right? Yeah. So that requires a whole different setup. But it's a, it's an immense fun where you work hard getting up to the spot, see the beautiful vista, and then you've got virgin snow in front of you and you can cut your own trails. And it's a very rewarding experience.
- [22:22]
Jenny Urich
Okay, here's my practical question. I. I hiked in Colorado once in the winter. One time in the winter, I hiked a Emerald Lake. I thought I was going to die because of the elevation. I couldn't catch my breath. And we did this, whatever, however many elevation change. We did this three mile hike and on the way back down, there was this group of skiers who must have had what you're talking about because they were like hiking up the same mountain with skis on and they were going to go a thousand feet higher. And then, and I was like that. You people are remarkable. And they didn't really act like it was a big deal at all. But then they were just going to come skiing down and I was sort of like, well, how do you know where the edges are? How does that even work?
- [23:03]
Tom Barrett
Yeah, well, and that's why I fell off a 20 foot cliff in all Colorado, because I didn't gauge where the edge was. That's a real fear you just identified. And in fact, that story, I was out with two other guys and they had went down before me. So they had carved their tracks and I wanted to carve my own track. I didn't want to follow in anyone else's footsteps, so I carved my own track. And then I was going to stop below them. And I should have stopped in front of them because that would be the smart thing. These guys are here. Even if there is an edge there, if I stop in front of them, I'm not going to go anywhere. Well, I stopped behind them, and they were standing right on the edge of a cliff, and I went over the edge.
- [23:45]
Jenny Urich
Okay, we need more information than this. So what exactly does that moment feel like? And then, I mean, 20ft is very far.
- [23:53]
Tom Barrett
Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you can probably appreciate, there's a mixed set of emotions that occur. There's a first of a Holy Toledo. What did I just do? And then as you're falling, you think you've got it right. You're in control. And then when I did hit the ground, I had both my feet in front of me, and so I landed and I was ready to take off. Right. So I didn't fall flat in my face. Yeah.
- [24:18]
Jenny Urich
Oh.
- [24:19]
Tom Barrett
What I failed to appreciate was I was carrying a 65 pound pack. And so when I hit the ground and I was leaning forward to get the. The brace with my knees absorbing it, that 65 pound pack momentum just continued. And pretty soon I had my face between my skis in front of me flat, and I was stuck. And the guys above were looking down at me going like, are you okay? And then they started laughing because I was ticked off. No injuries.
- [24:49]
Jenny Urich
No injuries.
- [24:50]
Tom Barrett
No wow. About drunks and fools.
- [24:54]
Jenny Urich
No injuries. It's almost like you were ready to, like, land it. Like it's some trick, you know, like in the Olympics, I'm gonna land it and keep going.
- [25:02]
Tom Barrett
That's how I felt. And when I initially hit, I was like, okay, that's pretty cool, Barrett. You just did it. And then that nanosecond later, when my face is being planted in the snow and I said myself, oh, you're an idiot. Yeah.
- [25:15]
Jenny Urich
Okay. Well. Okay. I have so many questions. Well, then what?
- [25:18]
Tom Barrett
Oh, then the guy ski down, and they had literally, believe it or not, extract me out of the snow because it was pretty deep snow, you know?
- [25:24]
Jenny Urich
Yeah.
- [25:25]
Tom Barrett
Crack me out of the snow because my. I was contorted. Think of this. You're, you know, you're standing up and then you're not in terms of your legs are now in the. In the snow and your body's now in front of you and your heads between your skis. Yeah, it was not. I didn't. Yeah, it wasn't good. But then they came down. They helped, and they extracted me out, and we got all dusted up again. And then.
- [25:45]
Jenny Urich
And then you go. You Go further. You have some sort of a map or.
- [25:49]
Tom Barrett
Oh, of course. Everything is.
- [25:50]
Jenny Urich
So you have. You have an idea of where you're going?
- [25:53]
Tom Barrett
Yes.
- [25:54]
Jenny Urich
Okay.
- [25:54]
Tom Barrett
Wow. Yeah. Not exact in terms of the cliffs and the like. And that gave me a different appreciation for really checking out the topple map and understanding where, as you pointed out, where the cliffs were.
- [26:05]
Jenny Urich
Yeah. Wow. So interesting. Those are all the questions I've always had and never had anybody to ask. So you've done all of these cool things you talk about, even really cool dining experiences. One of your daughters has a knack for finding different dining experiences. The Montana dinner yurt you talked about doing a lot in the Upper peninsula of Michigan, which is where we. We are in Michigan. And the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is absolutely stunning. So I was really excited to see that in the book. But we haven't even gotten to this point where you get diagnosed with cancer. Now. This is for the third time. You had had skin cancer and colon cancer, and then now it's prostate cancer. And you talk a lot in the book about prostate cancer and how it affects men and how it affects their families. And so, you know, if anyone is dealing with that, you can check out Living While Dying, My Cancer Journey. It has a lot of information in there, and you go through sort of these different situations that families might be experiencing. But the. One of the biggest things that you talk about is quality of life. And what do you do when, let's say you're asymptomatic? How do you decide? Am I going to take this medication that makes me feel lethargic and gain weight, or am I not going to try and have a better quality of life while I'm still living? Now here you are. You're still very much alive. You have a new book coming out called the Edge of Now. It should be out by the time this podcast goes live. So I have Living While Dying. I've embraced in the Cold, which is about a guide to solo winter travel and back country expedition. You also have a book called Chasing My Northern Lights. When you get diagnosed with cancer for the third time, how do you make the decision of I'm still gonna go, really use my days well instead of sometimes people like a hundred percent focus on getting rid of it.
- [27:42]
Tom Barrett
Right. So, you know, it's a. It's an interesting question, and I'll have to couch it in terms of this is my third kind of cancer I've had, but within the prostate space I've had it relapsed twice beyond my first. Right. So the first time I was diagnosed with cancer, I had this attitude of I can beat it. And research since then has told me that stage one, stage two cancer, folks, 100% survivability. So it's like it's not the end of the world. It's a blip in terms of what you're going to experience and you know, depending on your treatments, that would have an adverse effect in terms of side effects and so on. And that's why I, I opted for the surgery because it was one and done. It wasn't going to go for months and months of treatment because it affected my quality of life. And, and you know, so think of this for a second. 2015 is my exact diagnosis. I retired in 2012. I retired at age 55. When I was working, I always had the goal. I don't care how successful I was, where I was in my career. That age 55, I'm locking that down and starting a new, new chapter. However you want to define that newness of life. And I wanted to do it while I'm still young in terms of physically able to do what I want to do. And in fact, I wanted to be a outdoor guide. Well, I know I'm taking off away from your question. I think it's important because you raised something earlier about someone make a decision at 40 years old to start doing things that most decided 20 to do that, not 40. Well, here's no one for you. So at age 56, August of 2012, I decided to spend a semester with a program called Knowles. Knowles is a school. It's called the National Outdoor Leadership School. And their intent is to help people come to grips and understand the outdoors, teaching them leadership skills in terms of how to lead expeditions or even just to navigate being outdoors. And I said, oh, this is perfect. I want to be a guide. What better way immerse yourself right? Live in a tent for 90 days. What I didn't ask myself at the time was what would that really be like and who will I be with? So I arrived at the branch it happens to be in just outside of Seattle, Washington. And I arrive at the branch and I look around and there's two groups starting at the same time. And I'm looking around and I don't see any gray hair. I see a lot of wisps of people trying to grow hair in their face. No real beards. I come to realize the average the age was 18 and under. And here I am, 56 year old with these kids.
- [30:27]
Jenny Urich
That's cool though.
- [30:28]
Tom Barrett
Well, it's cool. And it's also like, what the heck am I gonna talk to them about? I mean, they're younger than my kids. I mean, I have no Idea what a 16 or 18 year old talks about aside from south park at that time or I don't know, whatever was going on that not my vernacular. But anyhow, I spent 90 days living in a tent with these young individuals. I learned so much from them. There was this one kid, I don't think he understood the term fear, had no clue. He was the most fearless person I have ever come to grips with. But I learned a lot from him in terms of how can you harness that fearlessness. Right. In terms of how you approach whatever you're trying to do, it was great.
- [31:08]
Jenny Urich
That's incredible that you did that. So. Okay, and we'll swing back to the other question in a second. But how did they embrace you?
- [31:14]
Tom Barrett
Well, you know what, that's interesting. I was at first fearful that they would exclude me from everything.
- [31:21]
Jenny Urich
Yeah.
- [31:21]
Tom Barrett
Second, that I would get treated like, quote the old man. But that didn't happen. And in fact we just went about, I mean, what I realized that sounds odd. We just, we hung out like a bunch of guys where guys don't get too deep in terms of so let's talk about your love life or let's talk about the things that are troubling you. He's like, what do you feel? It's like, nah, it's all about the hike we're going to do today or tomorrow. It's about the food we're going to make tonight. And so we talked about the things in front of us. And that leads me into a different, different story of. So in, in 1996, when I started doing these adventures, there was a fella who had embraced the same notions that I did in terms of wanting to envelope. He had a very, very interesting life to this point. He started off as being an Air Force pilot, went to Top Gun, got bounced from Top Gun because he was too methodical. He thought about stuff before reacting and they, they bounced him. Right. And then he went and got his PhD in, I don't know, molecular biological engineering or something like that. So smart man. Love the outdoors. And so we, we literally spent 20 years together doing these trips.
- [32:34]
Jenny Urich
Wow.
- [32:35]
Tom Barrett
Well, hold on. Here's the thing. When the trip stopped, our common venue stopped and our relationship stopped because we hadn't fostered any connection building.
- [32:47]
Jenny Urich
Interesting.
- [32:48]
Tom Barrett
Yeah. And it didn't take me until the last few years to appreciate and understand what had transpired.
- [32:54]
Jenny Urich
Yeah. Would you do it differently if you had to go back.
- [32:57]
Tom Barrett
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I mean, I was a guy. I mean, so, you know, part of this cancer journey has really, you know, some people say it's a gift when you get diagnosed. And, you know, most people look at you like, what are you, an idiot? I mean, how can that be a gift? Well, I'm again, one of those guys who said it was a gift because to be honest with you, my emotional intelligence was not very high. I was a guy. I mean, I'm a guy. And during this journey, I have realized where it was and it needed to change. And I think my, my EI is very high now. And so knowing that in order to foster relationships, it needs to be beyond just the activity because that's not sufficient enough to really connect. So back to, back to the kids, we didn't connect either. So, you know, it's been 12 years later and I started reaching out to them, but I don't, I don't have anything to reach out to anymore because I didn't know them. That was my fault. I didn't do that.
- [33:52]
Jenny Urich
Those are good reminders to do both things, you know, to adventure together, but also to build your relationship at the same time. The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit Strayer. Edu Jack Welchmba to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.
- [34:28]
Tom Barrett
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- [35:28]
Jenny Urich
So you've already decided going to retire at 55? I'm interested in doing these other things, which. That's really cool. I mean, I would say, like, for me, I say this a lot. I'm like, I'm interested in baking cakes at Costco. That looks really fun. I would love to build the games on the Survivor set in Fiji. You know, like, you do have these sort of things where you're kind of like, that might be fun to try that. So you kind of already had this idea in mind that at 55, I'm interested in being an outdoor guide. I'm going to go try this different thing. But within very fairly short period of time, you get diagnosed with cancer and, you know, the question is, is, do you take the bulk of your existence fighting that, or if your quality of life is still fine? Do you? I mean, that's a. I think that's a decision that a lot of people end up having to try and make and wrestle with.
- [36:15]
Tom Barrett
Yeah. Jenny, thanks for bringing this back. Right, so quality of life is the question that was being posed. And for me, it's very important. That's why I decided to have the epidectomy. I mean, I'm sorry, the prostatectomy. Figuring I got it behind me, I can focus back on living. Because for me, living is critical. And I know. What do you mean? We're all living, but are we? Most of us are existing. Most of us get up in the morning time. They do their job, either willingly or unwillingly, but then, you know, but they have this. They exist. They're going through the motions of making certain they're doing what they need to do, providing for, protecting for all the great stuff that is important in one's life. But are you living? Are you living with purpose? Are you enjoying what you're doing? You know, is it. Are you living life fully? And that, to me, is what the quality of life's about, is if you are doing those things, then it's a good quality of life. And I don't need to be. I'm not popping champagne. I mean, that's not my definition of quality of life. My quality of life is like, can I be outside? Can I enjoy a few hours just sitting on the bank of a river watching it? Yes. All right, good. As opposed to being in an iv, stuck in your bed, existing and just wishing this wasn't going on. As I said earlier, when you're in stage one, stage two, you will have 100% survival rate. But it's when you get to stage three, stage four, that that changes. And for me, that occurred in September, in May, in January of 2023, when I found out at stage four. And I'm going through this because I'm gonna. I'm gonna say something in terms of quality of life. So beforehand, I thought, I can beat it. And I did everything I could, did the. Did whatever treatments I needed to do, and I still lived and did everything I wanted to do. Hiking, flying, whatever. But then when I got the. That. That. That diagnosis, it states, you can no longer beat this, that you have to be on medicine. You have got to do that. I was like, whoa, that. That really. That. That caused me to stop. I mean, it did more than that. It paralyzed me for the longest time. And because I was asymptomatic, I said, well, then, all right, I didn't do any treatments because I had big plans. I was going to go, and I did go and spend four months traveling in South America. I went down to Antarctica kayaking, right? Even though I knew I was stage four because I felt the need to do that. And if I had to go on treatment and that stopped my ability to do that, what's the point? When I did come back, I had to stop my trip because I was ill, but it wasn't because I was sick from the disease, because I was stupid. I went to Bolivia, hung out at 18, at 17 to 18,000ft, and not getting fully acclimated and not fully appreciating the fact that I have heart issues. And so when I came home, I had to go through a battery of tests. And that's when they told me that your disease has gotten worse. You've got more tumors, and we need to start treatment now. And it's like, okay, I don't want to, but if it's going to give me another couple of years of life that I. And that's what I did. So last this past year, from May of last year, May 24 to now 25, I've been on CRAN. I've been on treatment, ADT and deprivation therapy, which has its own tons of side effects which are not good, and the quality of life has not been as good as it could be. But that's what I've been using this time, that I can't go out. I've been writing. I've been writing books, writing articles, giving speeches, doing podcasts, trying to pursue my adventuring and quality of life in A different, in a different manner.
- [39:50]
Jenny Urich
Yes.
- [39:51]
Tom Barrett
This is where acceptance comes into play. Accepting your moment and understanding your limitations, but not understanding, in a way, we come to a screeching halt. You find a different way to funnel your energies.
- [40:04]
Jenny Urich
How can I adventure in this moment?
- [40:06]
Tom Barrett
Exactly. And that's, that's another, another change. This. You know, I always thought that the notions of gratitude, intention and being present were for a different generation, not me. And now I embraced it. They're my anchor. Being present is so darn important. I can't express enough to my children and the people that are in my circle of embracing your moment. Because around you there's all kinds of awesome things happening. You don't need to go to a top of a mountain to experience it, the highs that are associated with it. You just go in your backyard, if you sit for long enough, you start seeing the chipmunks coming out and the squirrels coming out and the birds flying by. It's like, wait a minute, isn't that an owl? I didn't know we had owls around here. But you would never know that if you didn't go out and sit for a minute and be president. So the last year has been still been good, Quality of life has been good. I've been sicker than a dog, but at least in a different way. Now. Am I still traveling? Absolutely. Come May, I'm heading to, I think I mentioned to Scotland because I'm on an expedition where we are exploring the all the islands off of, off of Scotland and I'm hopefully going to do a photography book about that. And then in August I'm doing a polar expedition where I start in Iceland, venture about that for a while, head over to Greenland, venture around that for a while and then take a ship through the Northwest Passage, up to Baffin, up to the polar region, seeing polar bears and then ending in some little fishing village in the Northwest Territories. Now in years past, I would be all excited about hiking right now, working out, trying to get ready and carrying that 65 pound pack so I could do my venturing. And instead I know I can't do the trucking. I had been focusing on my photography skills. I went out and I just bought myself a brand new and I'm like, okay, I'm going to take photography to a whole different level than I've done before. No more, you know, iPhone for me. So I'm reorientating my mindset so that I can still embrace, still be part of, still enjoy, but in a different way.
- [42:14]
Jenny Urich
It's interesting that you bring that up because that was one of the things that I got out of your book Living While Dying. You talked about these different therapeutic outlets and I thought about, I just had a conversation recently with this man who wrote a book called Better than Real Life. His name is Dr. Richard Freed. And he was talking about how the screen manufacturers are trying to make the screen apps and games better than real life. And their goal is that no one has hobbies that kids have no hobbies, that they spend every waking moment that they have of free time on a screen because the more eyes that are on the screen, the more money these companies are making. And so I really stuck out to me in your book Living While Dying that you had all these therapeutic outlets. Now you've added on more, right? You've added on photography, you've added on writing. But you were talking about like, you know, you threw in reading enjoyment, reading. Not just reading to learn, but I'm throwing in novels. I'm going to put in a garden that's enjoyable. And then you talked a lot about woodworking. Now, your dad was a carpenter. Did you learn from your dad?
- [43:15]
Tom Barrett
Absolutely. I mean that's what, when I was in high school, that's what I was going to do. He's a musician and a carpenter. I figured this is a good life. You work hard during the daytime. Right. And then you have a few beers at the end of the day. You know, this is good. And I live in Cape Cod, so it's got its own attraction to it. A little different than Michigan. But you know what's funny? I was born in Windsor, Ontario and I lived in Detroit up until 1968. Yeah, so we actually, in terms of being a Michiganer.
- [43:40]
Jenny Urich
Yes, absolutely. Okay, so your dad's a carpenter and that was one of your therapists, therapeutic outlets was building these boxes. And it sounds like your shop is so cool. You built yourself a shop. It's like got a basement.
- [43:53]
Tom Barrett
Yes. Well, you've done your reading, it's great. So again, go big or go home. I just didn't take a room and convert it into a shop. I made my own. I built it from scratch. I mean, I built it a two story structure with a full basement, 12 foot ceilings. A car can go through the garage because when I built it, I built it. When I retired in 2012, I still had the mindset where I was going to be a guide. My guiding was going to be through the form of using kayaks as our venue to get outdoors. I was going to build kayaks and sell them on the Side. And so I built this thing so I can purposely build kayaks. And I did that for a while and I realized that I am not a retail person. I mean, I've been customer facing my most of my life, but dealing with someone who's on vacation, I concluded that I think they leave their brains at home because when they're on vacation, they're like, okay, you do everything for me, right? Because I'm on vacation, I don't want to carry this or do that. And it's like, really? This is about, you know, experiencing, which means being engaged, which means doing your own stuff. Right. Anyhow, I didn't last doing that. I stopped and instead I turned to making furniture. So now I have this shop that's a great furniture making place and I've built some beautiful stuff so far.
- [45:12]
Jenny Urich
The thing that I kind of took out of it when we started talking about, like, did you learn from your father? And talking about the really cool shop, you're. My shop is about 75 steps from my home. I built it in 2012 as a retirement gift to myself. It is rather unique. A full basement, a garage level that can hold three cars, and upstairs that's meant to be an office or an apartment. It affords me beautiful and tranquil views. And you wrote, the smell of the wood in the shop is almost intoxicating and it helps me stay grounded during this journey. So what I was thinking about, Tom, was it's like no one can predict which direction their life is going to go. No one can really predict, like, I might have cancer at this age or I might have these different situations. I might be on these treatments and not able to adventure in the way that I wanted to. And so it felt almost like you had created yourself a safety net by having these different outlets. And you could see how today there may be a whole generation of kids who the majority of them do not have therapeutic outlets. And as a parent, you're not really thinking like, oh, my 12 year old in 50 years might really need to have some skills just to sort of keep his mind off of things or so that he can adventure in a way that's fulfilling to him, even if he can't, you know, travel or do things like that. So that's really what stuck out to me. And you had this sentence that said, finding your way to a more fulfilling life is not simple even when things are going great, let alone when you have health or other issues. So to me, I like that you had laid a foundation and you probably didn't even do it for that reason. But you had already laid a foundation of things that brought you fulfillment, and now you're continuing to add on to them.
- [46:48]
Tom Barrett
Well, you brought up a great point, and it's unfortunate, but I got a friend of mine who has cancer. He's the same age I am, but he's two years further along the. The journey. And so his. His tumors are in his bones and he's going through a lot of pain and he's having a difficult time. And it dawned on me, and I'll bring it back to your point, because I think it's a very important point, not just for youth, but even for individuals of my age, and that is living with purpose. So I said I worked for an accounting firm. At our firm, you're forced to retire at a certain age, right? 60 years old, you got to be out because they want new blood in there, new ideas, and if, you know, go do something else. But they have found that, unfortunately, guys in our profession just focused on being good at what they do. They're great accountants, good tax people, good consultants, etc. But they had no time beyond their family for anything that was a hobby, therapeutic, otherwise. And so the year before you retire, they help you go through a bunch of programs to spark some purpose, spark some passion, spark some interest. And in fact, instead of giving you, you know, a gold watch when you retire, they said, listen, we're going to give you a check, but only after you purchase whatever you need to pursue your hobbies. So in my case, that's why I built the shop in 2012, is that they paid for half of my equipment, right. And stuff I would never buy because it's too expensive. So I'm going to go back. Purpose is important. Even when you're a teenager, having purpose, something that's passionate, that something that is passionate to you is very important because it will carry you through those times when you're uncertain. I mean, and there's so many times in our life when we're uncertain. We go from college to working. That's a period of uncertainty. And how do you. How do you really get engaged? Well, you get engaged because you like your job, hopefully, but you also get engaged because you have other passions that forces you to be with other people of like mind. And that's how you develop your networks. That's how you develop your contacts. And so having purpose is something to me, and I tried to instill in my daughters is extremely important. And I use the word purpose as opposed to hobby, because it does have a different Context, it did have a different motivation behind it and a different level of passion. I mean a hobby. That's cool. Yeah, I like to paint. All right, well if it's not a passion, you're going to do it every so often. You know, I have a passion of, of giving back to society. So I volunteer with Habitat, I volunteer with our local food pantry, I volunteer now with cancer support groups. All right. Because now I'm dovetailing a passion with another passion and it's nice hand to glove kind of fit. So having passion and purpose from a very get go is critical and I think it really helps you live a better life.
- [49:53]
Jenny Urich
And I think your book really does a fantastic job of portraying that. So the book is called Living While Dying My Cancer Journey by Tom Barrett. If you are interested in going on a solo winter travel and backcountry expedition, Tom has written a guide for you. It's called Embracing the Cold. You can also check out Chasing My Northern Lights which has a topic of resiliency and the importance of that. And coming out very soon, the Edge of Now, which is about just the transformations you've had in your life. And I think people would get a lot out of reading them as a trilogy, those three books together. And then go on your solo winter travel and back country expedition and report back. Let us know how it was. John, this has been wonderful. What you are doing is so inspiring. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [50:39]
Tom Barrett
My favorite memory of my childhood that was outside is playing with my 16 foot Lyman latch strike boat that I purchased when I was 14 years old with a 40 horse Evinrude Johnson. Evinrude because we lived on a lake and we would spend it all, you know, daytime water skiing and then most important at nighttime just sitting on the boat in the middle of the lake, laying back as kids can only do, looking up at the sky and just dreaming of what could be. But I did that quite a bit.
- [51:20]
Jenny Urich
I love that is so cool because you had written in this book Living While Dying that you worked in your family business. You know, you said your dad was a musician at night and he's doing this jazz music. And you wrote your mom was in the hospitality business and you wrote you worked with him. Some of the times were boring, but some were really cool. And Dr. Peter Gray is this man who's talked about how we've actually stolen that from kids. Like now you kids can't work as young as they used to. Kids Used to be able to work young and it gave them opportunity to do things like that. To be 14 years old and to buy your own boat.
- [51:52]
Tom Barrett
Right.
- [51:52]
Jenny Urich
Wow.
- [51:53]
Tom Barrett
I don't know how to do it today. Right. Yeah. I mean, unless the parents buy it for them. And if they, if your parents do, that takes away something.
- [52:01]
Jenny Urich
Yeah.
- [52:01]
Tom Barrett
About owning. Because you earned the right to have it. Right. You earn. And the effort that takes, it puts on a whole different context. You protect that thing you just invested in. Right. There's a whole different level of ownership. All right. As opposed to when someone gives you something. That's nice. Thank you very much. And you, you do respect it, but not the same degree as if you had to acquire it yourself. Right. Whole different level.
- [52:28]
Jenny Urich
You had a gleam in your eye. I mean, even the way you talked about it, I didn't even know what words you were saying, but you were like, the horsepower, this. And you know, I mean, how many, how many decades has it been? Both you had pride in that boat because you were given the opportunity to earn it. And, you know, like I said, that's something that teens often don't get anymore. So, Tommy, just a lot of thought provoking things in this conversation and in your books and I so, so appreciate you being here.
- [52:53]
Tom Barrett
Oh, the pleasure is all mine, Jenny. Pleasure's all mine. This has been a very enjoyable discussion. Hey, you are great. I gotta tell you, that was. I was so. Talk about being afraid. Are you ever afraid? You do. I was afraid about this conversation because I had no idea where we were going with it. And boy, you were admirable in terms of good questions, well thought out questions. You did your homework. Thank you very much for doing that. I mean, that was impressive. Thank you.
- [53:20]
Jenny Urich
Well, thank you so much for saying that. That means a lot. When does the Edge of Now come out?
- [53:23]
Tom Barrett
It's due at the March 28th.
- [53:25]
Jenny Urich
Like it literally comes out this month.
- [53:27]
Tom Barrett
Yeah.
- [53:28]
Jenny Urich
What an honor. What an honor. Super nice to meet you. Yes.
- [53:31]
Tom Barrett
Keep doing what you're doing. You're doing a great job.
- [53:33]
Jenny Urich
Thank you for being here and huge congrats on your new book.
- [53:37]
Heather Thompson Day
You know, over time, life can get you down. Discouragement starts to creep in, and eventually we just stop letting ourselves hope for more. We say things like, I'll believe it when I see it and don't get your hopes up. Sounds like good grown up advice, right? Actually, it's not. Hey, I'm Christy Wright. Number one national best selling author, speaker, business coach and mom of three. Oh, and I have a podcast called get yout hopes up, which is what I want to tell you about. Romans 15:13 says, May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by power of the Holy Spirit. And that is exactly what my show is about. Whether I'm telling one of my latest crazy God stories or giving you practical advice to live out your faith, I love hanging out with you every Monday to help you get to know God, get closer to him, and get your hopes up again. Listen to get your hopes up wherever you get your podcasts and you can learn more at get your hopes up. That's getyourhopesup.com what if more important than.
- [54:40]
Christy Wright
Being right is how we handle being wrong? Holding tightly to ideas that can't adapt.
- [54:46]
Tom Barrett
With new information is not a virtue, it's a vice.
- [54:49]
Christy Wright
I'm Heather Thompson Day and I'm inviting.
- [54:51]
Jenny Urich
You to join me over on my.
- [54:53]
Christy Wright
Podcast what if I'm Wrong?
- [54:54]
Tom Barrett
Where I'll be your guide through real life questions. Okay, today we have a submission story.
- [55:00]
Heather Thompson Day
And it is wild.
- [55:02]
Christy Wright
Subscribe to what if I'm Wrong?
- [55:04]
Jenny Urich
Available wherever you listen to podcasts.