1KHO 450: There is Good News Even in Sad Stories | Annie F. Downs, Where Did TJ Go?

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast Episode 1KHO 450: There is Good News Even in Sad Stories | Annie F. Downs, Where Did TJ Go?
Release Date: March 24, 2025
Host/Author: That Sounds Fun Network

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Introduction to Annie F. Downs and Her Journey

In this heartfelt episode, Ginny Ert welcomes renowned author Annie F. Downs to The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast. Downs shares her inspiring journey as an author, speaker, and podcaster, delving into profound themes of grief, perseverance, and faith.

Creating "Where Did TJ Go?" – A Story of Grief and Loss

Annie F. Downs discusses the deeply personal experience that led her to co-author "Where Did TJ Go?", a poignant children's book addressing grief and loss. She recounts the heartbreaking story of her sister Tatum's pregnancy with TJ, who received a life-limiting diagnosis. Faced with impending loss, Downs felt compelled to create a resource that offered a gospel-centric perspective to help children navigate their emotions.

"Nobody had a book that is like gospel centric in the mainstream that helps with the loss of a sibling. There were a couple recommended, but they didn't tell a gospel story. And that's what we wanted for Sam."
[03:30]

Downs details the book's inception as a personal gift to her family, which eventually found a wider audience after partnering with publisher Ravel. The book aims to provide comfort and understanding to children experiencing similar losses, encapsulating the message that "there is good news even in sad stories."

Overcoming the Tendency to Quit – Personal Stories and Lessons

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Downs' lifelong struggle with quitting and how she transformed this habit into one of perseverance. Reflecting on a pivotal moment from high school, Downs shares how she once gave up during a rigorous running drill, questioning what might have happened if she had pushed through.

"Yesterday's quit does not determine tomorrow's run. There is this opportunity."
[11:38]

Through introspection and faith, Downs learned that mental exhaustion often masquerades as physical limits. This realization empowered her to adopt a mindset of persistence, illustrated by her experience completing her fastest 5K later in life despite past tendencies to give up.

The Power of Community and Hobbies in Building Perseverance

Downs emphasizes the importance of community support in overcoming the urge to quit. She advocates for seeking confirmation from others before making significant decisions to quit, transforming solitary quitting into a supported pause.

"If you're thinking you're going to quit a relationship, ask someone else if they agree you should quit."
[16:45]

The discussion extends to the role of hobbies, like Zumba and cross-stitching, in fostering perseverance. Downs highlights how engaging in enjoyable activities provides a sustainable way to practice resilience without the burnout associated with more strenuous commitments.

Embracing Growth and Change Through Writing

Reflecting on her body of work, Downs acknowledges the evolution of her beliefs and perspectives over time. She views each book as a snapshot of her spiritual and personal growth, celebrating the ability to adapt and change.

"I'm allowed to grow and change. The good news in that is it also marks who I was."
[34:36]

This acceptance of growth underscores her message that personal development is an ongoing journey, enriched by the narratives she shares through her writing.

Spiritual Insights: Sowing with Tears and Reaping with Joy

A central theme of the episode revolves around Psalm 126:5-6, which Downs interprets as a metaphor for sowing seeds through one's hardships and reaping joy in return. She connects this to her experiences of grief and the creation of resources like her children's book, emphasizing the transformative power of faith.

"Those who sow in tears will reap with songs of joy."
[37:15]

Downs shares a poignant conversation with her pastor about how specific places, like Central Park's reservoir, hold spiritual significance in her healing process, reinforcing the idea that God orchestrates moments of redemption.

Finding Joy in the Sunrise and Nature

Downs expresses her deep appreciation for nature, particularly sunrises, as daily reminders of God's mercies and faithfulness. She contrasts her experiences in Nashville and New York, highlighting how her environment shapes her connection to the outdoors.

"Every day it's different. Every day it's unique. Every day God just keeps doing it."
[53:13]

This reverence for nature underscores her belief in finding spiritual nourishment through everyday natural phenomena, reinforcing the podcast's overarching theme of valuing time spent outside.

Reflections on Childhood Memories and Outdoor Play

Concluding the episode, Downs reminisces about her childhood spent on 18 acres outside Atlanta, Georgia. She fondly recalls riding her bike around a pond, surrounded by the farm life of her grandparents. These memories encapsulate the essence of the podcast's mission: valuing unrestricted outdoor play as a cornerstone of childhood development.

"I loved everything about... we had goats, and I mean, we just had this tiny little cute mini farm situation."
[57:20]

Downs emphasizes how these formative experiences fostered a deep connection to nature, which continues to influence her work and advocacy for children spending ample time outdoors.

Conclusion: Planting Seeds for a Brighter Future

Throughout the episode, Downs interweaves personal anecdotes with spiritual lessons, illustrating how sorrow can lead to profound growth and joy. Her story serves as a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the enduring power of faith.

"This is a seed I planted. When you plant a seed, you don't get a seed. You get a tree with fruit for years to come."
[40:00]

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast offers listeners a compelling narrative of overcoming adversity, the importance of community, and the transformative power of nature and faith. Annie F. Downs' candid reflections and uplifting messages provide valuable insights for anyone navigating the complexities of grief, perseverance, and personal growth.

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Notable Quotes

• Annie F. Downs
  "Yesterday's quit does not determine tomorrow's run. There is this opportunity."
  [11:38]

• Annie F. Downs
  "If you're thinking you're going to quit a relationship, ask someone else if they agree you should quit."
  [16:45]

• Annie F. Downs
  "Those who sow in tears will reap with songs of joy."
  [37:15]

• Annie F. Downs
  "Every day it's different. Every day it's unique. Every day God just keeps doing it."
  [53:13]

• Annie F. Downs
  "This is a seed I planted. When you plant a seed, you don't get a seed. You get a tree with fruit for years to come."
  [40:00]

---

Key Takeaways

1. Embracing Grief Through Faith: "Where Did TJ Go?" serves as a comforting resource for children dealing with loss, emphasizing that even in sorrow, there is hope rooted in faith.

2. Perseverance Over Quitting: Overcoming the instinct to give up involves mental resilience and community support, transforming challenges into opportunities for growth.

3. The Role of Community and Hobbies: Engaging in enjoyable activities and seeking support from others can cultivate perseverance without leading to burnout.

4. Spiritual Growth and Change: Personal development is ongoing, and evolving beliefs and perspectives are natural and necessary for growth.

5. Nature as a Spiritual Anchor: Daily interactions with nature, such as watching a sunrise, can reinforce spiritual faith and provide solace.

6. Value of Outdoor Play in Childhood: Unrestricted outdoor activities are vital for holistic childhood development, fostering connections to nature and building lifelong skills.

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About That Sounds Fun Network

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast is part of the That Sounds Fun Network, which aims to provide podcasters with community support, advertising opportunities, and educational resources as the industry continues to grow. Partnering with creators like Annie F. Downs, the network fosters the creation and distribution of meaningful and impactful content.

For more information about Annie F. Downs and her work, visit theexcelcamp.org and explore her books, including "Where Did TJ Go?" which offers solace and understanding to families navigating the complexities of grief and loss.

Transcript

[Annie F. Downs]

Do you want your teenager to go on the adventure of a lifetime, all the while learning the ability to know God's truth, discern wisely and take godly action in the world? My name is Andrew Hawk and I'm the Camp Director at the Excel Summer Leadership Camp. Every summer we take teenagers on two week adventures to help them grow in their leadership, discernment and Christlike character. Between camping, rock climbing, hiking and whitewater rafting, campers build lifelong friendships while also training in Excel College's game changing critical thinking method. They'll learn to filter through the cultural messages of the day with Godly wisdom and to learn how to apply those in the method in real life context through wilderness first aid and CPR training. A few months ago I received a message from Melissa, one of our past campers. When her mom and her were overseas, her mother got injured and she used her training to make a huge difference, according to doctors, to be able to get help when it was needed. We love to hear stories like this. Not only do campers lead with practical skills, but also with a deeper faith in Jesus and lifelong community. I want to personally invite your teenager to join us this summer by going to theexcelcamp.org to learn more.

[Ginny Ert]

That's theexcelcamp.org welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Ert and you're never gonna believe it, but Annie F. Downs is here. Welcome Jenny.

[Annie F. Downs]

You should believe it. Of course we're getting to do this together. I feel so lucky to be on here with you.

[Ginny Ert]

Yes. I just joined your network, the that Sounds Fun Network, in February, which is such an honor. And I've been bragging about it, I have to be honest.

[Annie F. Downs]

Great. I love it. Well, I mean, it's just such a gift to us, to the team at that Sounds Fun Network because we really started this network because we wanted podcasters to have community and to have advertising and to get educated more and more as this industry grows. And so every show that agrees to partner with us and feels like we're a good, safe, healthy partner for you is just a real. We're really honored by that. So thank you for trusting us with those parts of your business and of your creativity. And we're just really thankful the team.

[Ginny Ert]

Is wonderful and other shows in the network are wonderful and people can check those out. And I know there's going to be some cross episodes coming and so just super, super honored to be a part.

[Annie F. Downs]

Thanks.

[Ginny Ert]

My sister in law Jenny and my cousin Julie are just huge, huge fans. So I Mean, I was. They're going to be so freaked out that you're even on. So you're helping me get really big, big cool points with my family. So huge, huge. Thank you to you.

[Annie F. Downs]

With pleasure. With pleasure. Just be like, Annie is my friend and it's normal. So everybody chill out. It's very normal. It gets more disappointing the longer you know me. So don't worry. You're having the. Your cousin and sister having the best experience possible.

[Ginny Ert]

So I want to come on and say I'm a super fan.

[Annie F. Downs]

Oh, it's so kind.

[Ginny Ert]

But I also feel like maybe that's kind of lame because I don't have every single book, but I do have four of them.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

Plus your newest book called Where Did TJ Go? That you wrote with your sister Tatum, a book for kids on grief and loss. And this is such a wonderful book to put out into the world. It just came out.

[Annie F. Downs]

Thank you. Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

And life is filled with different moments of grief and loss. And this one is very personal to you and to your sister, to your family. But it has such a beautiful message. There is good news even in sad stories.

[Annie F. Downs]

What?

[Ginny Ert]

What a message.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

What a message for a child to take throughout the rest of their life. There is good news even in sad stories. You know, this is such a sad story. Your sister, she lost a baby and you're trying to talk to the older brother about what's going on. At what point did you and your sister Tatum say we should probably put a book out into the world for children?

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah. So when Tatum was pregnant with tj, she and my brother in law found out really early at like 12 weeks that TJ was sick and like life limiting diagnosis kind of sick. And so we spent their entire pregnancy asking God to do a miracle and preparing for the loss of TJ as it got closer to his birth, probably about two weeks before he was born, my sister Tatum's counselor said, I think what you should do is read a book to Sam about loss that will help Sam as an older brother. As a two year old older brother, kind of start processing this. So Tatum called me and said, hey, as the author in the family, what book is it like, tell me what the book is that we should read. And I was like, I don't know, I've never been through anything like this. So I called counselors and I called pastors and I called two moms who were also parents that were grieving as they were raising grieving children around the loss of a sibling. And Jenny, nobody had a book There was no book. And I was like, how is this possible? Like, how has there not been a book that is like gospel centric in the mainstream dream that helps with the loss of a sibling? There were a couple recommended, but they didn't tell a gospel story. And that's what we wanted for Sam. And so I wrote it. And honestly, when I first wrote it, I've done this two other times. There are two stories that exist in the world that were gifts to family. I don't, like, make casseroles, but I will tell a story. And so I've written stories for families as gifts. And so that, that is what I thought I was doing. I thought I was writing a book for Sam. I printed it, I told it to myself in my phone. And when I was driving from Franklin, Tennessee to Nashville, like a 25 minute drive, I'm just sobbing in the car. About two weeks before TJ's birth, we thought TJ would not live past the hospital. And so I'm telling Sam this story in my phone to kind of prepare him for what will happen to tj. And so then I get home and I type it up. I listen to myself and I type it up. I put it on 8 and a half by 11. I steal clip art from the Internet and I go and I print it at the local print shop, laminate and spiral bound and do a copy for my parents and a copy for my sister and her husband. And I am telling you, I thought that was the end of it. And TJ is born. And through the kindness of God and medical assistance, he ended up living 56 days. So he was three weeks in the NICU, five weeks at my brother in law and sister's house in hospice care. And so we had a very different experience than we thought we would have. But as Tatum started reading the book to Sam, a few months after TJ died, she would call me and say, hey, this Sam gets really bored in the middle. There's too many words. And I was like, okay. Like, I was kind of like, all right. And she'd be like, so this page needs to say this and this needs it. And I was like, okay. And in my head I'm like, I just honestly, Jenny, I thought it was like part of her grieving process to like work on a book. And I was like, okay, let me make that edit to a document I'll never use again. Then a couple of months after that, we kind of talked about, like, do I just send it to my agent and just say, hey, we really needed this Will you ask the publisher if this is something they could use and that they would partner with us? And they. The publisher, Ravel was like, this is a felt need that we haven't had an answer for. And so with all humility, Jenny, I say, my sister and I wrote the book. Like, the book. When people say, what is the book? We wrote the book because there has not been one. And there is good news even in sad stories is the gospel. So now when families are looking for forever past February of 2025, when they say, what's the book we read to our kids as their siblings have passed away? This is the book.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah. Or for any child who needs the message.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

That there is good news even in sad stories.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

And it really is just a wonderful book. You know, like, there's talk of, well, what might he be doing in heaven? Is he climbing trees? Is he riding a bike?

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

Like those types of things. And it. It gives a child something to hold on to. You have a wonderful page of resources. You have information at the back from David Thomas, who is one of our very, very favorite people.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

From the daystar Counseling Clinic. I think that's what they call it. And then they have a show on your network, too.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's right.

[Ginny Ert]

Raising Boys and Girls. So David Thomas and Sissy Goff were huge fans. So it is just a wonderful book. It is there. People can know, where did TJ Go?

[Annie F. Downs]

Thanks, friend.

[Ginny Ert]

By Annie F. Downs and your sister, Tatum Green, with just beautiful illustrations. A book for kids on grief and loss.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

And then I thought maybe we could talk about. It's going to come back from a while ago.

[Annie F. Downs]

Oh, I love Looking for Lovely.

[Ginny Ert]

Looking for Lovely. Collecting the Moments that Matter. You know what I thought, Annie, is that there's a lot of same themes in Looking for Lovely as there is in this book about good news and sad stories. So I felt like it fit with the message of the kids book. It will fit with this audience. Cause you talk a lot about nature. You talk about Radnor Lake, Radner Lake, the sunrise, hiking. And actually, it fit with my life because I struggle with food addiction as well. So I was like, yeah, check, check, check. I thought this would be a perfect one to kind of tie in to this episode. This is called Looking for Lovely. Collecting the Moments that Matter. You'd already written a bunch of books before it and have written a bunch of books since, but I just found that message of there is good news and sad stories woven throughout this book. So I thought, you know, I'm gonna take you back.

[Annie F. Downs]

Well, you know, the truth is, I'm only one person, and my life has a theme. Yeah, right. Like, all of our lives have a theme. And so every one of my books has a. That. Whether that thread is every third color or whether that thread is once in a book, the thread of there is hope here is just part of my story, and so that's gonna be absolutely everywhere. But, girl, I love talking about being outside. So whatever. I mean, we can do. We do. Do you per chance. It's fine if you don't. Do you, per chance, have let's All Be Brave sitting there, too? I do. Okay. So I wanted to tell you something cool about the covers. Let's All Be Brave is supposed to look like the daytime, and looking for lovely is supposed to look like the night. They were meant to look like day and night together. Because looking for lovely has a darker feel to it. Let's All Be brave is exactly what it sounds like. Come on, there's hope here. Let's go. And looking for lovely as. Hey, there's hope here. Let's go. Yeah, you're all right. You're all right. And the other little Easter egg, I'll tell you before we get to your questions on it, on the COVID I said to the illustrator, I want it to look like July 4th, but I technically want it to look like the color, the blue color of, like, July 3rd, the night before. And then he sends us that covered with what looks like fireworks all over it. And I was like, this is perfect. This is exactly the shade of blue I wanted. This is 100% it. I love all the fireworks. He said, those aren't fireworks. Those are emotions. Oh, those are all the emotions on the COVID of the book. Get out of here. Matt Layman, best cover designer in the game. Matt Layman.

[Ginny Ert]

Wow.

[Annie F. Downs]

Isn't that wild?

[Ginny Ert]

That is incredible.

[Annie F. Downs]

I know.

[Ginny Ert]

I love Easter eggs.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We put Easter eggs everywhere.

[Ginny Ert]

All right, I want to put out a couple of your sad stories.

[Annie F. Downs]

Oh, great.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah, Perfect, right? Aren't you glad you're here?

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

Okay, here's one. So you struggle with quitting. You feel like you quit everything. You quit everything except for hating yourself. That's what you're talking about in this book. Now, this book is about a decade old at this point.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

But you talked about when you quit this running drill.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah. In high school.

[Ginny Ert]

Yes.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

And you have this question about, like, what if I hadn't quit? Which I just think is everybody's question. What if I would have done that differently? And yet here you sit.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

Like, you are an accomplished author, and this is a part of your story that you had to grapple with quitting. And you're sharing with other people, you know, how you got over these situations where you were prone to quit.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

So can you just talk about the first time that you really remember quitting and you say, I wish I hadn't quit. But, like, sometimes we're in those spots in life where we just can't. We can't run the next lap, and we can't run to the front, and we just can't. And then we regret it.

[Annie F. Downs]

Well, I'll never know if I could, because I quit sometimes when we say we can't, what has been true for me is when I say I can't, I actually don't know if I couldn't because I didn't actually go to exhaustion. I went to mental exhaustion. And I'll tell you the beautiful thing about that story is I was 14, I'm 44, and this summer, I ran the fastest 5k of my life, faster than any 5k I ran in my 20s or 30s. It's such a good reminder that yesterday's quit does not determine tomorrow's run. And so there is this opportunity. What I think about when I think about that first quitting story, when our soccer team was doing this drill where everyone kind of jogs slowly in a straight line, and then the person in the back has to sprint to the front and then lead the team and keep running. And I gave up on it in the middle, and I quit. My knee was hurt. My knee did hurt. I could have made. I don't ever. I'll never know could I have kept going? But I didn't. And it set me up to walk away when things felt hard in my mind. My. What is actually true is our bodies can go farther than our minds think we can. If you've ever done the spiritual discipline of fasting or intermittent fasting, you know that your mind tells you you can do less than your body actually can do. And so it is a constant mental battle. But what I think about now, when it comes to quitting, I mean, I have the per. The. This just happened to me on New Year's. I was in Montana speaking at a friend's church, and I was doing a cold plunge at their house. 33 degree water and minus 20 degree weather. I mean, it was a real cold plunge. I'd never done one before. And the pastor had said over and over, it's three minutes. It's three minutes. And right before I get in, he says, you know, you can do one minute if you want. And I said, no, I cannot. I do three minutes. That stance right now in my life is a direct result of what happened when I was 14, of going like, no, you're right, I could do one minute and you could call it successful. I will always wonder what would have happened if I stayed for three. And so now I am probably more prone to be the person that other people have to be like, hey, slow down. Hey, you can quit now. Hey, you should be done. Hey. You know, in some ways it's an over adjustment from being a quitter. But the, I mean, scripture says ask, seek and knock and, and nobody knocks once. If, even if someone came to my door right now, they're not knocking once. They are going. In fact, I'm in my apartment. I live part time in Nashville, part time in New York, and here in New York, there's a buzzer. And I'll tell you what, if that Amazon guy needs anybody in the building, if he has a package for anybody in my building, but he can't, he just pushes all the buttons till someone lets him in. He doesn't say, no one answered. I'm walking away. It could be for someone two floors below me. And he is going to keep holding down the buzzer at my apartment until I let him in. I want to be like that in every way. The Bible says to ask, seek and knock, and it doesn't say to stop. Right.

[Ginny Ert]

And the door will be opened.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's right. That's right.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah. So I just thought it gave my heart in my soul just something so much comfort because I have those things. You know, I quit this or I quit that. What if. You know, the Midnight Library is a book that goes through the what ifs and, and it's just such a life changing book because you're like, well, you don't really know that that would have necessarily been the better thing. But what you do know is that there is good news in sad stories.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

And it's sad that you quit. It's sad that you can't go back and redo it and know what would have happened. But people can look and see. There's a lot of good news here. You just ran your fastest time and that is incredible. You've redeemed that.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah. An important thing for our friends listening to remember or to know is that now when it comes to big things, I do not quit alone. If I'm choosing to quit, I'm Getting confirmation from other people. If it's a business quit, I have my business coach or my business partner or my manager, my agent speaking into it. If it's a personal quit, my counselor or my pastor, my mentor speaking into it. My lean toward is, if you're going to keep going, you don't need any help keeping going. If you're thinking you're going to quit a relationship, your relationship with God, a workout regimen, anything. If you think you're going to quit, ask someone else if they agree you should quit. And if they. Even if you just send a text, hey, I. I've been doing. I've been running every morning. My knees are really sore today. I'll get back into it Monday. Would you confirm with me that it makes sense for me to not run today? And your friend goes, yeah, stay home. You go, great. I'm not quit. I'm not quitting. I'm just taking a break today. And so very often I think if we can change that language and have someone else step in with us, it helps us to build the character. Suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance builds our character, and character is what gives us hope. And so I don't want to give up when the perseverance is being built because I don't get hope in the end. That's why I have other people step in. Even now with just about every single decision where I'm quitting something, I do not decide that alone.

[Ginny Ert]

I love that advice. And you talked about, you had talked with different athletes, and they took the path of, I might pause, yes, but I'm not going to quit.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's exactly right.

[Ginny Ert]

And I thought that, that, that was something that you could grab onto, to pause. You pause for a couple of days, pause for a week. Just, you know, sometimes you need a break from something, get some counseling about it.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah, pause for a whole season. I mean, winter is meant to be wintry. Like, if you stay inside, you won't. You don't want to hear me say that. If you don't work out as much as you, I mean, win is meant to be wintry. And so it is okay if you pause for a season. I feel that in my body where I'm like, getting ready to be back to Nashville. And I'm like, this will be different than New York because the temperature is different. I am ready to unpause. I tend to work out inside in the winter and outside in the spring, summer, fall. And so I'm ready. But I also had a pause, but I didn't quit. I just paused for the winter Little pause.

[Ginny Ert]

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[Annie F. Downs]

Hey friends, I'm Annie F. Downs, author, speaker, podcaster and part of the that Sounds Fun Network, and I'm a big fan of seeing God move in our everyday lives. Can we talk for a second about what it really means to be a person of faith? It's waking up every day and choosing to trust him even when life feels uncertain. It's standing firm in truth, walking in grace, and knowing that God is always with us. But I know staying rooted in faith is not always easy. At least it isn't for me. And that's why I love Glorify, the number one Christian devotional app designed to help you start, grow and strengthen your relationship with God every single day. One of the things I love about Glorifi is the amount of options available to me through the app every day. Not only does it help me kick off my time with God with their daily devotional, but there's a song of the day to listen to and a community of other users available to engage with. It's really cool. With Glorify, you can begin your morning in scripture, reflect with a daily devotional, and end the day with the daily walk with God, this immersive experience that quiets your heart and refocuses your spirit. It's one of my favorite hacks, something simple but powerful that keeps you anchored when life gets busy. And since we're shining a light on women this month, let's celebrate the strength, faith, and stories of women who inspire us every day. And for the men listening, think about how you're uplifting the women of faith in your life. Join me and over 20 million believers who have found encouragement through Glorify. Download the app [e-mail] podcast and let's keep walking in faith together again. That's glorified D APP.com podcast.

[Ginny Ert]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. Okay, here is a sad story. And I felt this in my heart.

[Annie F. Downs]

Okay.

[Ginny Ert]

Okay. Well, a couple things. First of all, I had a similar experience to you in the sixth grade where I must have been at a doctor's or something and I had to get weighed. I don't think the numbers are super important. There's kids that listen. But I remember getting on a scale in the sixth grade and being rather devastated at the number I saw. And I had, you know, friends that were like gymnasts and they were just little. So I just really related to your story there of, you know, change and dealing with looks in that time of life. And also just using food as an emotional salve.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

And feeling that addictive part of that. So I related to all of that. I just talked to Ian Cron, who wrote a book called the Fix, all about the 12 steps and addiction and that we can have addictions to so many different things. So there's a lot of things that I related. And so you, you're talking about, you know, food. And food is your friend, but it's also your enemy. And you're struggling with these different things. I relate to all of it. And then you wrote, I had an adult onset allergy to dairy.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

And in my heart, I was like, oh, no. That's how I felt.

[Annie F. Downs]

Like, I felt you'd be like, lucky you.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah, well, I kind of felt it for you where you, like, panic because you're like, no, like, this is what I'm using to get by in life. And all of a sudden I'm allergic.

[Annie F. Downs]

And.

[Ginny Ert]

And you, I mean, the writing is fantastic. These types of foods were central to my stuffing down of feelings and smothering of pain. And you wrote, I, you had to quit drowning your sorrows in milk. I was like, this is fantastic writing. You're never going to read another sentence like that in another book. But there is good News in sad stories. So it's a sad story. You love ice cream and cheese and all of these different things, and you develop this allergy. It's a sad story. But the good news that came out of it is you really started to work on your emotional self. Can you talk about that?

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah. That was really important to me. And you know, the other wild thing is it only took about, I don't know, 48 hours of not having dairy for me to feel like a different person. And that there was a grief in that because I thought, well, even if I wasn't allergic, this feels so much better that I would choose this. That's really sad that I'm not even going to choose to bring back this medicine that I had that I thought made me feel better. I remember being, I don't know, almost a decade ago, I remember a friend saying she was 80, 20, gluten free and dairy free. And I thought I could never. And now that is. That has been my whole life for 10 years, 15 years and 10 years. And the growth in me that has changed from this. Now this could be true for anybody with any type of food or with other things in their lives is once you really see how much healthier you are without your addiction, it is way less attractive. Not every day, but six out of seven days, it is way less attractive because you are seeing and feeling so different. So, perfect example, Today is my last day in New York. And so I. My whole subway ride home. This morning I got up and went to a thing already this morning, my whole subway ride home, do I get a gluten free breakfast or do I get a bagel? Because it's my last day and it's my last time for a couple of months to have a New York bagel. And I usually only do it on Saturdays because that's my Sabbath. And it's okay if I feel bad on my, like, because gluten just kind of makes me like a tranquilized bear cub. It just kind of like. And so I don't do it on work days because it doesn't make me my best at my job. And this morning, what I. The compromise I made is I only ate the top of the bagel with the bacon, egg and cheese. And I was like, I'll still be able to talk to Jenny. I'll still feel good enough. I go to the airport in a couple of hours. And so the gift of it, the loss of dairy and gluten in my life was a loss of an addiction or the loss of the drug connected to the addiction. It has been 10 years now. The difference when food is the drug, when drugs are the drug, or when alcohol is the drug, even when sugar is the drug, you can full on quit those. Those don't ever have to be in your life again. You can walk away. If sex is the drug, you can walk away. You can be celibate the rest of your life. When it is food, that's the drug and you have to eat every day. That is challenging in a different way than it is. There's other challenges to alcohol that don't. That aren't a challenge to food. But that's a problem with food is your thing. Because I still have to eat breakfast at lunch and dinner every day, hopefully. So my drug has to still exist in my life. How do you deal with the addiction when the drug isn't allowed to be all the way gone is the thing. The same would be true with someone who's addicted to working out. You don't want to suddenly sit on the couch every day.

[Ginny Ert]

Right.

[Annie F. Downs]

You've got to keep the activity, the thing in your life and get a balanced relationship. And so that's what I've probably spent the back half of this decade, probably the last four years. Well, probably since COVID so five years since I was stuck at my house and cooking for myself was how do I get a balanced relationship with food since it can't be a drug that I. I can't leave the drug and therefore lose the addiction. So I need to get a balanced relationship with the drug so that there is no more addiction. Sure.

[Ginny Ert]

Like if you're addicted to people pleasing. I mean, Ian Crown went through this incredibly long.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah, his book's incredible. Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

You can't not be around people. I mean there are all these different things. And so you really. You have to learn to deal with your emotions and that's what you're doing there. And so I felt like, yes, I went through this. Oh no. Oh no, she has a dairy allergy. 2. There was good news there.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah, that's right.

[Ginny Ert]

It changed things for you for the better man.

[Annie F. Downs]

I am so better for it.

[Ginny Ert]

How about this one? And I think this is one that a lot of people would relate to our looks. And I thought this was like a. Just a really, really hard story. But like I said, one that a lot of people will relate to. You're watching a home video and someone says out of nowhere. It's like from last year. Right. You know, you're in fifth grade and this is a video from Fourth grade. And you're just watching it.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's exactly right.

[Ginny Ert]

Great video.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yep.

[Ginny Ert]

And someone says out of the blue, you were a lot smaller then.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

Do you see the difference?

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

And you said I hadn't, but I did. Now suddenly, in a sentence and in a blink, everything changed for me. There was apparently a size I was supposed to be and I wasn't it.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

So this is a moment that changes. I mean, things are changed forever.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yep.

[Ginny Ert]

You even wrote ugly chased me. You start talking about I couldn't just be Annie. Now I have to fix Annie. Which that takes a large capacity to try and fix yourself to change into something else.

[Annie F. Downs]

Especially as a fifth grader. My gosh, can you imagine now that I'm a grown up who has fifth and fourth graders in my life? I think something my counselor said to me a long time ago is it's never the child's fault. And I was like, well, but I. I hadn't eaten right. She was like, it's never the child's fault. It's never the child's fault. It's never the child's fault. I mean, just over and over because that I need to fix me. That was not my fault that all that happened. My neighbor making this observation out of turn. That's on that neighbor. That's not on me, you know, so.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah, so that's a very sad story. You read it? Yeah, it's a sad story.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

And like I said, I think a lot of people can relate to a moment in time when they got made fun of or they just realize that, I mean, like now I'm in the husky size of these different things and you're just a kid. Yeah, but the theme of all of this is that there's always good news and sad stories. And one of the pieces of good news is that you can start to share that with others and talk about the struggle. You wrote. I often thank God my soul wasn't overtaken by the ugly. You have this time to grow your soul. And God looks at the heart. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart for someone who's listening in old, young, all sorts of different ages, and they're just feeling a little bummed about the way they look. You are ugly. Chase me. What's the good news in that story?

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah, the good news is you're wrong. I mean, that's the good news, is you're wrong.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah.

[Annie F. Downs]

You know, one of the gifts, Jenny of 2025, when you're online compared to when I was 19 and looking at Seventeen magazine or YM or, you know, I mean, that's all we had were magazines that showed us one woman on the front. And now there are so many role models and models and I mean, one of my favorite groups of people to follow on Instagram are mid sized influencers and mid size clothing bloggers and whatever. You know, the reason I'm saying all this, the good news is we actually live in a time where what is being fed, fed as much to us now as ever, is you can take the raw materials you have and do something really lovely with them. Here's four other people who actually look like you. You don't have to change the raw materials. You can do something with the raw materials that you have. And I think I grew up thinking, here's the pair of jeans, I need to fit into them. What I was taught as a teenager is, here's the jeans, fit into them. Whatever size it is, fit into them. And now the stronger now that is still being said. I'm not like, it's all good. The louder voices right now, if you're looking in the right places, are saying, here's what the style looks like. Here's what those jeans look like on your body. You can wear those jeans. And so I think there's the, the good news in this sad story of feeling unlovely or that God made you wrong, or that your body is unattractive, or that your face is unattractive, is the raw materials that God has given you are not wrong. We just get to do something with them if you want to. But it has to start internally. It can't. Well, actually, I take that back. It doesn't have to start internally. If the first thing you need to do is buy expensive makeup and learn how to do it so that you can sell see what everybody else sees so that your spirit and your heart can catch up, that you're beautiful. I'm very fine. If it starts with the outside and work, it works its way inward. Because for my whole life, people told me my identity was in Christ and that the beauty should start on the inside and work its way out. And I never really got there in that way. I had to start believing that I could wear what other people were wearing. I could try what other people were trying with their hair. I could wear makeup like other people were wearing it. And then I started seeing what everybody else saw. I was like, oh, I look just like everyone else. I'm not this like troll like I thought I was as a kid. I look Just like everyone else. We are all beautiful. And so the good news and the sad story of I think I'm an ugly person is you need more time on the Internet because there are a lot of people who wear your size, who have your skin issue, who have your hair color, your hair issue, that look like you in some form or fashion. Find them and follow them, and you will see that God. I think God uses those women in my life to remind me that I have the opportunity to feel beautiful, too. If I believe what God says about me and if I try.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah. And you even talked about. You were looking back at old photos, like when you were on this athletic team, this soccer team, and you're feeling like. But when you look back on old photos, you're like, I look like everybody else.

[Annie F. Downs]

What I would give to have those legs again that ran every day for soccer. Right.

[Ginny Ert]

Of course.

[Annie F. Downs]

I mean, I think everybody does that. But I think the gift is the good news, even in that of looking back at pictures. I can do that right now. Of pictures where I think I was healthier than I am now or pictures where I was not healthier than I am now. Either way does not serve us. We're not meant to compare at all. What used to happen is we constantly compared ourselves to others. What happens now at 44, is I compare myself to younger versions of myself. And that's also not serving me at all. It doesn't serve me at all because it gives me either false pride or false pain. Neither of them are true because I have no idea what happens in my body tomorrow. And so we just go forward, follow some fun people on the Internet, learn what you can. And when your brain says, there is no one as ugly as me, there is no one my size, there is no one like me, you need to say out loud, God made me on purpose. I'm beautiful this way, and I have some agency improving that.

[Ginny Ert]

And I just love that you talked about the other things, too. You talked about your personality. You talk about your friends.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

There's more to us than our looks.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's right. All of that matters.

[Ginny Ert]

Yes.

[Annie F. Downs]

All of that matters.

[Ginny Ert]

The beautiful book Looking for Lovely. It's been around for a little bit.

[Annie F. Downs]

Thanks. I love that one, too. I love that one. They're all like yearbooks to my life. Right. Like, they're all. All my memoirs. Are these, like, snapshots of what God was really doing in that season? So the good news, the sad story is there's a lot of ways I've grown since I've written books 10, eight, six years ago. And so some of it makes me cringe sometimes. Nothing you've said today, but sometimes you go, oh, I'm not sure I totally believe that anymore. And that's in print forever. All right. We're allowed to grow and change. The good news in that is it also is a marking of that is who I was. And I wrote the best book I good on that day in my life. And I'm so proud of it, even if I'm different now in some ways.

[Ginny Ert]

And isn't it wild how it intersects with people? You never know when.

[Annie F. Downs]

Right when it's meant to. That's right.

[Ginny Ert]

You know, 10 years down the road, you can't even really imagine it.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

That 10 years down the road someone's going to pick this book up and they're struggling with feeling ugly, or they're struggling with their weight, or they're struggling with these different things. And they can have this message of good news and sad stories. Yes, the Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack WelchMBA to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.

[Annie F. Downs]

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[Ginny Ert]

For real this time.

[Annie F. Downs]

A little supreme, some Gucci.

[Ginny Ert]

I even have that vintage Prada on my watch list.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's why ebay's my go to for all my go tos. Yeah, ebay. The place for new pre loved, vintage and rare fashion. EBay. Things people love.

[Ginny Ert]

You wrote about a verse. I don't know if I've ever really thought about this one. And talking about nature like, you know, there's this hiking and Radnor Lake and sunrises in the morning and this Verse is about sewing, which I just think is such a wonderful thing to do with children and with your family and for yourself, put some seeds in the ground, because it's just a reminder that God uses small things and creates miracles. And you're talking about watermelon seeds. You know, you're like, this one seed is gonna make a whole vine with a bunch of watermelons. With thousands of seeds.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

So this is the verse. Those who sow with tears will reap with songs of joy. Those who go out weeping, carrying seed to sow will return with songs of joy, carrying sheaves with them.

[Annie F. Downs]

Armloads. Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

You talk about how tears are seeds.

[Annie F. Downs]

You know what's really funny is I just had this conversation with my pastor here in New York because I said, there's this one place in Central Park. Jenny, have you done a lot of time in Central park yet?

[Ginny Ert]

Just a very little.

[Annie F. Downs]

Okay. I need you to come do some of your hours in Central Park. I mean, it is. It is such a beautiful gift in New York. But my pastor and I talked about this because I said, tell me. That is the exact verse we talked about last week. And I said, I have walked this same path at Central park and just cried over a broken relationship, over what I want hope God is doing, over making big decisions. I said, what happens when you pray and cry in the exact same place over and over? Is that where you reap? Like, because where you actually sow tears is where you actually sow seeds. Is where you reap the seeds, where you sow tears, do you actually reap there? And he said, I think someday you'll be on a walk around that exact same part. It's the reservoir, the Jackie Kennedy Onassis reservoir at the top of the park. He said, I think someday you'll be on a path and you'll be having a conversation, and you will realize you are reaping, and you will go, this is. I had to do this walk right here. And so I think that's why place matters so much. And paying attention to important places and being outside of where you do your garden matters so much. That verse, one of the versions says, you come home with armloads of blessings. I'm like, that is it. That's it, right? But also, Jenny, it makes me think of, where did TJ Go? Because a very kind person on the. On their podcast said, I'm sure you agree with this, which I always love when people do that. I do that, too. I'm sure you agree with this. If this just helps One family. I said, nope. Sorry, I don't agree with that. I said, if it was meant to help one family, I'm supposed to get coffee with them. But this is a seed I planted. Where did TJ go? The seed I planted. And when you plant a seed, you don't get a seed. When you plant a seed, you get a tree with fruit for years to come. So I hope this helps a million families, because I want multiplication of the seeds we have sown in tears. I want it. I want a seed. Seed to be an armload. Right. So an armload of seeds versus a seed. And so now that's kind of my new prayer for every book I write, but particularly for tj, is like, I'm planting one seed. And if it's meant to help one family, God let me have a conversation about it. If it's meant to multiply like a seed multiplies, send it out. That's why podcasts are beautiful, Jenny. That's why we love partnering with you, is this is one seed we're planting that goes into a lot of lives and multiplies. If this was just supposed to be a conversation between you and me, we'd have done it at the network offices. But it didn't, right? It's. It's meant to multiply.

[Ginny Ert]

I want to read what you wrote. The multiplication of tears. When things didn't go well for me professionally, when I got the repeated no's from publishers, when I've had to part ways with people who worked with me, when someone writes a cruel review on my writing on the Internet, those tears have always seemed so large. But when I really think about it, the Bible is right. These joys are much greater than the sadness.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

And even that you're talking about, you got an armload of podcasts in your network. I mean, so many. And it's growing. Just the other day, there was a new one. I was like, that's so cool. But it wouldn't be there unless you had been willing to not quit and to work through the really, really hard things, the things that bring all of the tears. I mean, what a verse. Reap with songs of joy.

[Annie F. Downs]

What a verse, right?

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah.

[Annie F. Downs]

I mean, that whole. I think it's. Did you write it down? Is it Psalm 121?

[Ginny Ert]

I wrote it down. Psalm 126. 5 and 6.

[Annie F. Downs]

126. Yeah. So hold on. I want to pull it up real quick, if you don't mind. Hold on just a second, because I'm glad you know where it Is because I am the queen of, like, somewhere. I mean, I've been quoting Psalm 16:7 for like two weeks in conversations that I'm recording. And it's Psalm 16:4 that I've been doing. So great. Great, great, great, great. 126. Because what it says right above that. Well, let me. Can I just read the whole. The whole 126 real quick? This is in the NIV. When the Lord restored the fortunes of Zion, we were like those who dreamed. Our mouths were filled with laughter, our tongues with songs of joy. Then it was said, among the nations, the Lord has done great things for them. The Lord has done great things for us, and we are filled with joy. Restore our fortunes, Lord, like streams and then the give. And then it says, those who sow in tears will reap with songs of joy. Those who go out weeping, carrying seed to sow, will return with songs of joy, carrying sheaves with them. I mean, the Lord has done great things for us. We are filled with joy is right before we're so in tears. I love that. I just love that. Thank you for letting me read that.

[Ginny Ert]

It's so powerful. It's. One of my favorite qualities of God is that he is a redeemer.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah, that's right.

[Ginny Ert]

He redeems these sad stories and he does not forget.

[Annie F. Downs]

I mean, the Lord answered a long ago prayer of mine recently that I have not even thought about in years. And as it was happening, I was going, what is going on? And super clearly, Jenny, the Lord with the Holy Spirit worshiped my heart. I don't forget anything you pray. And I just started sobbing. I was like, oh, you answered a prayer in 2025 from like 2010. As he's answering, I'm going, oh, I don't forget a single thing you've ever prayed. I was like, our God is a redeemer and a restorer.

[Ginny Ert]

He is. Let's talk about another scripture.

[Annie F. Downs]

Okay.

[Ginny Ert]

It's mine for this year. I just have been thinking about it so much.

[Annie F. Downs]

My.

[Ginny Ert]

Our kids do this homeschool co op thing and it was actually on the wall in the gym. They had made some kids that made this huge poster. And I was like, that's my verse for the year, maybe for my life. And it reminded me of your book because you have this story. You start hiking because you didn't hike, because you're like, my hair sweats when I exercise. And hiking feels like it's exercise. And then you go do it and you're like, no, this is actually really fun. And really restorative. And you get faster.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

You go on the medium trail, and you're getting a little lost.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah. Radnor Lake changed my life. Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

Yes. Nature, I mean, it does a lot. You get out there and you really can connect with God. Isaiah 30, 31. Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you saying, this is the way. Walk in it.

[Annie F. Downs]

Walk in it. Walk in it. That's right.

[Ginny Ert]

And you talk about Peter.

[Annie F. Downs]

How about that one?

[Ginny Ert]

Like, Peter just trusted. He didn't know which way he's gonna go.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

You know, and. And that happened a lot with Jesus. Said, follow me, follow me. And they just win.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah. But you know the best thing about the disciples? They never left their country. Do you know what's great about Peter? I don't know if you've seen the episode of the Chosen where Peter walks on water, but it is, like, so moving. It's, like, so beautiful to watch. If you haven't watched the Chosen, it's such a gift to put some visuals to these scriptures we've read so long. But Peter walked on water at the place he went to work every day. Right. Like, he didn't walk on water and somewhere he didn't know. For us to walk on the Sea of Galilee sounds insane. But for Peter, Jesus said, hey, in this place, you know really well, will you do something you've never done before? And that is whether you turn to the right or the left. Right. You'll hear a voice behind you saying, this is the way. Walk in it. It is very rarely in my life, Jesus asking me to do something in a foreign place in a foreign way. More often than not, it is Jesus asking me to do brave thing in a familiar place. Obedience looks like that nine out of ten times for me.

[Ginny Ert]

You talked about how Radner Lake helped you quit quitting. You have this amazing story about. Okay, this is another one. A marathon. You didn't. Mine is not about a marathon, but it's similar. I had a friend that I worked with, and she was like, I loved her. She was wonderful. And she was super into running. She was running like she have a baby. And it was like, in four days, she's back to. She did 5Ks. I think she'd run cross country.

[Annie F. Downs]

Wow.

[Ginny Ert]

I was not a runner. You say your hair sweats. My teeth hurt, so I don't know what that is.

[Annie F. Downs]

Okay, great.

[Ginny Ert]

It's not a thing for me.

[Annie F. Downs]

Made us like this on purpose.

[Ginny Ert]

So this friend was like, you should do a 5k with me. I was like, I probably should not, but I signed up as a good friend and we go out to do this thing. Now she does her 5k in 20 minutes. I was like, that's like one mile. I mean, I'll be a third done at 20 minutes. And so she finished. I was at the very back. It was like through the woods on this trail. I was behind a child, like a young child. I was at the very back. I was like, I don't really care. I'm just gonna finish. And then she finished and came back. And you said you had a friend that did the same thing.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes, my friend Katie did the same thing.

[Ginny Ert]

She ran behind me the whole time and was like, don't stop. Don't stop running. It turned out to be one of the worst experiences of my life. But it's sweet, very sweet when a friend comes back and they push you to finish. And so you have this whole theme about, you know, you felt like you were a quitter, and then all of a sudden, now you're into all these experiences where you're finishing. Community is helping you finish.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

And then you find the Zumbathon.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes. I loved it. Okay, well, let me maybe. I just want to make one thing clear about the story you retold of mine. It was not a marathon. It was a half. It was a half marathon. I've never done a marathon.

[Ginny Ert]

I mean, to me, it's the same.

[Annie F. Downs]

To me, it's the same. And you know who? It's not the same too, as marathoners. So I just wanted to be clear to marathoner. I have decided as a grown person that 10Ks are my max. 10Ks are my max. 5Ks are my sweet spot. I enjoy them like you. It's 45 minutes to an hour. Maybe I'm not going to be uber fast, but I will use half an hour, 45 minutes an hour to do a 5K. Great, great, great. And I will enjoy learning how to do a 10K. Never again shall I. Half or full. Not. Not my ministry, not my use of time, but the Zumba. Thon. I love Zumba. My group of friends and I found Zumba about the same time in Nashville. And it was so fun because it was like a. I think it was all day Saturday. I should ask one of my co workers because hilariously, now, I mean, that was 10 years ago. Ish. And now she works with me, which is so funny. But back then we did not work together, but now we work together. I love hiring my friends. I'm Like Taylor Swift in that way of like. Yeah. If you're my friend and you need a job, I would love to eat lunch with you every day. So come here. We'll figure it out. When you can fall in love with a thing like Zumba or like cross stitching, Any kind of hobby. I talk about this in the book. That sounds fun. The power of a hobby is that it is something you love. That something that you create. Something. Yes. Something that you build, something that you make that keeps you off your phone, usually, unless you're a photographer. And it does exactly. What you talk about with the zoom. A thon did is it lets you practice perseverance because it's actually a thing you really love doing, but you get to practice perseverance in doing it. And that's way better than, like, persevering to a marathon. You and I are not going to do that. And so if we told ourselves, I mean, if you decide to do a marathon someday, I support you, but I'm not going to. I'm not. Your teeth hurt. My hair, so it's uninterested. And so if I decided to train for that, I'm going to be miserable the whole time, because I know me, but the gift of hobbies and the gift of Zumba was I just kept on dancing. Just kept on dancing. And we had. We had a ball.

[Ginny Ert]

I love it. Because you related it to, like, a gift from God. Yeah, this was a gift from God. We want to move our bodies.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

And I think I did so growing up, I did Richard. Richard Simmons sweating to the oldies.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

Middle school. I was like, this is my thing, you know? I mean, that's right.

[Annie F. Downs]

I was like, this is exercise. Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

Put me on Justin Bieber. Bye, bye, bye. And I want to do that dance. And you wrote Suddenly I found an activity that someone else was categorizing as exercise. But I was calling it fun. It was like I had located and captured a unicorn. Because you value fun and you value. And you can do it with your friends. And you wrote this. I felt God in that class.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes. I remember I was spinning around. I think I may have written this book, but if I didn't, here's what it was. Shakira's song, this is Africa. And we were spinning around with our arms like birds. And I thought, this feels like the Holy Spirit. Like, this feels like God is here. I mean, it. It was wild. It was in the basement of one of the YMCAs in Nashville. I mean, I. I remember, like, it was yesterday, but I'LL also tell you that the growth point in this for me, Jenny, is that revelation that happened that I wrote about in looking for Lovely. I can find exercise that actually is fun for me. I have never thought that my whole life the growth point has been. And you don't have to do that exact exercise forever. You get. And so what I've learned about myself is I've got like an 18 month commitment to a certain workout regimen so I can do 18 months of Zumba. And what I would have told you back then is, oh, am I a quitter because I don't want to do this anymore. But now that I've done the process five or six times since then of going like, hey, no, I just actually am really good at doing a set of exercising, whether it's running, which now I've even figured out if I do it when it's warm outside, but not when it's cold outside. I crave it in the summer and the fall and I'm happy to let it go in the winter and go to weight training. And so I have learned the rhythm by being a person and just being getting older. But I just want to set our friends free that are listening about exercise. Like, you don't have to love the same thing for the rest of your life. You can do Zumba for a while and then you can ride a bike for a while and then you can swim for. I mean, I did water aerobics for a while, which is a ball. If you've not done water aerobics with all your senior citizen neighbors, you are not living. Your YMCA offers it. I promise they do. Go figure out what it is. I'll tell you what it is. It's probably 10 o'clock on a Tuesday, which is so inconvenient for those of us with jobs, but it is a blast and everybody's so lovely and you're sweating in the pool. So. So give yourself freedom that if you decide today after hearing Jenny and I talk about this, yeah, I want to find exercise that's fun. You don't have to mentally commit the next 50 years of your life to this particular exercise. Commit the next month to it and see what you think and then commit the next month and see what. How long is your rhythm of how long you want to hang on to a certain expression of exercise.

[Ginny Ert]

And it's so inspiring because it's a reminder that there's a lot of different things out there. You might have a season where you really love hiking in a certain spot. These different Things and that our world is filled with things that sound fun filled with them.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

[Ginny Ert]

And all these different things that you can try. What a gift from God that there's so many things you can try in your life.

[Annie F. Downs]

And I'm with you. The more outside, the better.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah.

[Annie F. Downs]

One of the things I miss so much when I'm in Nashville is in New York. You are outside all the time because you don't have a choice. It is a six minute walk to the subway for me. Rain, snow, sleet, hail, it doesn't matter. It's a six minute walk for me. But I am outside all the time here and I am so thankful for it. It's one of the gifts of the city.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah. It's amazing. All right, two last topics real quick here as we're wrapping up. You love the sunrise. So talking about getting outside. His mercies are new every morning.

[Annie F. Downs]

Great.

[Ginny Ert]

Is your faithfulness. I mean, all of this is in the Bible. And I think it's a wonderful thing that God did was to take his earth in his creation and embed all of these spiritual principles.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

But you talk about, you just love the everyday sunrise and the normalcy of it. Can you talk about that?

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of people are sunset people. And probably in my most romantic moments, I do enjoy a sunset scene. But the one that gets me is the sunrise. I just. It blows my mind whether it's in. I've seen it a few times when I've been at a speaking event in Hawaii. Because your body isn't adjusted to the time zone. For me, living in central and Eastern time and then going all the way to Hawaii, you wake up before the sun the first few days of your trip. And so always I try to go one or two days before I start speaking so that I can be ish adjusted. But man, watching the sun come up over the water is unbelievable. I mean, every day it's different. Every day it's unique. Every day God just keeps doing it. He just keeps doing it. And so I do my best to see, even if it is in my apartment in New York, doesn't allow for it because I. Well, here's the downside of New York is there's buildings everywhere. So I can't see the sun from my apartment. I can't see the sunrise.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah.

[Annie F. Downs]

But at my little condo in Nashville, my chair I sit in every morning from 6 to 7. It is. The room does not look right. Like if you were trying to be as Aesthetically pleasing. You're like, this shouldn't be here. But the reason the chair is where it is is I look out the window to the sunrise every morning. And so I want to be sitting there and I want to see it. It is just. I know it takes going to bed earlier so you can get up earlier, but every time I get to see it, I am not sorry God orchestrates it.

[Ginny Ert]

I know he does. Something like that doesn't happen without a conductor.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

And yet it cannot be timed. It's not predictable. It's not the same every day. It is an incredible artistic gesture by God for lots of people, but it often feels particularly for me. Oh, I love it. I love it. What a reminder.

[Annie F. Downs]

Thanks.

[Ginny Ert]

The power of that daily sunrise.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

Every single day.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

Up it comes. And it's something that you can watch and that can remind you that his mercies are new every morning.

[Annie F. Downs]

For anyone who thinks the sunrise isn't for me, like Annie thinks the sunrise is just for her. I've never. Next time you get up and watch one, start wondering, which part of this is God doing just for me, and you will see the part that is just for you. You will absolutely know, no question. And then you will realize that God, every morning that you see the sunrise does a part just for you.

[Ginny Ert]

That's very powerful. You talked about songs.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

You sow with tears and reap with.

[Annie F. Downs]

Songs, reap with songs.

[Ginny Ert]

Lots about songs. You talked about the rhyming. You talk about a song, the song for your season. You end it with, this is my story. This is my song. Praising my savior all the day long. I was in the Salty play, too.

[Annie F. Downs]

You were.

[Ginny Ert]

I was not salty because I can't sing, but so, I mean, we were born, like, the same year, I'm pretty sure.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

So, like, this is like. I mean, it's all just right in tandem.

[Annie F. Downs]

I'd love that. You knew Salty, though.

[Ginny Ert]

Yes. And we did it. I didn't get the part because I can't sing.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah. I was a little salty. It was not. I sang just that one little part.

[Ginny Ert]

But you thanked Justin Bieber.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

Got to the end and the acknowledgments, and I was, like, so entertained by all these musical artists. So if you're looking for new music to listen to, people definitely have to follow you along. And I just love that. That ran the whole book about music and songs. And then you go through, like, people are like, I thank my agent. And you're like, I'm deeply grateful to Justin bieber and andrew rip and you know. And yeah, the soundtrack to saving Mr. Banks. And I love musicals and Ben Rector and Mumford and Sons. And you talked about this concert you win where he was throwing up and you. So then you went again. So anyway, just a fantastic book. Fantastic book.

[Annie F. Downs]

Thank you.

[Ginny Ert]

Looking for lovely. If you haven't read it now, Annie has got so many books, so you want to grab them all.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's so kind, Jenny.

[Ginny Ert]

But looking for lovely. Collecting the Moments that Matter. The newest one that just came out, which is you would read with your children. Where Did TJ Go? A book for kids on grief and loss with these themes that run through them. That God makes things new and that there is good news even in sad stories.

[Annie F. Downs]

That's right.

[Ginny Ert]

Annie, what an honor. What an honor. Thank you so much for coming on. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yeah, I. You are gonna love this so much because of the job we do. I grew up on 18 acres outside of Atlanta, Georgia. My grandparents were across the driveway and there's a pond and it's all still there. It's actually now a community park. And so, like, my childhood home is like a. Like where the park rangers hang out. It is very bizarre. But the lake is there, and I used to. To ride my bike around the lake, interviewing myself. Can you believe as like a five and six year old, I would ride my bike around interviewing myself? But I just loved. I mean, I loved everything about. I think I loved. Now that I look back on my youngest years, I underestimated how much I loved being outside because I was a teenager who wanted to watch tv. I mean, aren't they all? But I mean, we just had this Christopher Robin esque hundred acre wood in our little 18 acres. We had goats, and I mean, we just had this tiny little cute mini farm situation. And growing up with your grandparents who were farmers across the driveway just made for a really beautiful connection to that land that I still feel. And now that it's a park in Marietta, Georgia, it's so fun that it just, like, exists that people can go to.

[Ginny Ert]

Okay. We just did a tour stop in Marietta, Georgia, and I wish I would have known I could have gone back.

[Annie F. Downs]

To where y'all were when you went to Marietta.

[Ginny Ert]

Well, that's where the tour was. It was at a church in Mary. It was like in Marietta.

[Annie F. Downs]

I couldn't remember what church. Yeah.

[Ginny Ert]

Yeah.

[Annie F. Downs]

And I can't either.

[Ginny Ert]

It wasn't that. And I actually, I mean, I can't.

[Annie F. Downs]

I remember saying it. Sorry, sorry.

[Ginny Ert]

I remember saying, oh, how cool.

[Annie F. Downs]

I know. I wish you could have gone. I know. Sorry.

[Ginny Ert]

What a thing that God places those seeds in young children. You hear people say that a lot. You know, this was a passion of mine when I was a kid.

[Annie F. Downs]

Yes.

[Ginny Ert]

And then, you know, you see decades down the road that it was an. It was a thing. So I love that. I love that you were interviewing yourself. That's wonderful.

[Annie F. Downs]

Interviewing myself. Ridiculous.

[Ginny Ert]

Annie, thank you so much for being here.

[Annie F. Downs]

Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so grateful for y'all and what you do. You plant a lot of seeds that bears fruit, far more than you could imagine. So thanks be to God that we get to do this kind of work with him.

[Ginny Ert]

Yes. And thank you for all your bravery and for doing it, because here I sit, part of the network. Part of the network.

[Annie F. Downs]

It's such a blessing. So glad.

[Ginny Ert]

Oh, thank you. Any safe travels back to you, Tennessee.

[Annie F. Downs]

Thanks, friend.

[Ginny Ert]

What if more important than being right.

[Annie F. Downs]

Is how we handle being wrong? Holding tightly to ideas that can't adapt with new information is not a virtue, it's a vice. I'm Heather Thompson Day, and I'm inviting you to join me over on my podcast, what if I'm Wrong?

[Ginny Ert]

Where I'll be your guide through real life questions.

[Annie F. Downs]

Okay, today we have a submission story, and it is wild. Subscribe to what if I'm Wrong?

[Ginny Ert]

Available wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Annie F. Downs]

Let's be real. Talking about intimacy can be awkward, even with your spouse. But it doesn't have to to be. We are Alana, Kyle, and Tia, hosts of the Kingdom Sexuality Podcast, and we're all about keeping it real and helping you add some spice and deeper connection into your marriage. Specifically, when it comes to what happens in the bedroom, we don't shy away from the tough conversations that often get missed in Christian circles. With us, you'll get laughs, tips, fresh ideas, and challenges to strengthen your relationship and bring it to the next level.

[Ginny Ert]

Because, let's face it, navigating intimacy as a Christian can be confusing, and finding safe, wholesome resources can be tough. So subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week on the Kingdom Sexuality Podcast.