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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 457: Kids are Play-Deprived and Paying the Price | Angela Hanscom, TimberNook
00:59:26
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- [00:00]
Ginny Urich
I was never really a runner.
- [00:02]
Angela Hanscom
The way I see running is a.
- [00:04]
Ginny Urich
Gift, especially when you have stage four cancer.
- [00:08]
Ann
I'm Ann.
- [00:09]
Ginny Urich
I'm running the Boston Marathon, presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance to thrive in life, even with cancer. Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause.
- [00:21]
Ann
Give if you can@b of a.comSupportAnn what would you like the power to do?
- [00:26]
Ginny Urich
References to charitable organizations is not endorsement.
- [00:28]
Ann
By bank of America Corporation.
- [00:29]
Ginny Urich
Copyright 2025 welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich and Angela Hanscom is back for the fourth time. Welcome.
- [00:39]
Angela Hanscom
Thank you for having me.
- [00:41]
Ginny Urich
People are probably like, why are you screaming in my ear? But I'm screaming because I never thought I would ever get a chance to talk to you one time. And we've even met in person and we've spent a fair amount of time together because a timber Nook program launched here near we live in Michigan and I've been out to your wonderful conference where you do trainings for your timber Nook providers. And so this is like such a joy, Angie.
- [01:04]
Angela Hanscom
I know it was like a long time coming. I'm super excited about it.
- [01:08]
Ginny Urich
Well, you didn't have any idea who I was, but I like read your book and it changed my life. So I was chasing you down for a long time and now here we are. It's been really such a blessing. You've been strengthening in my faith amongst many, many other things. I've learned so much from you, but also includes faith in God and you have been encouraging to me in times that have been low. And I'm so grateful that God has brought us together. I truly believe that in this mission of giving kids their childhood back and having these therapeutic benefits of getting out into creation and all of the things that nature provides kids. So let's just kick it off with a very brief for people who don't know what Timbernook is and what the opportunities are for possibly work options or also for places that people can take their kids to have this wonderful outdoor experiences.
- [01:56]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, of course. So Timbernook is outdoor play experiences for children. And we are in four countries currently where we have locations throughout, mostly throughout the United States. I would say that's our biggest influence. But also we have some in Canada, UK and Australia and we're also. So we have private timber providers that come and train with us and bring this concept they license in the program and they bring community programming to their location and that could be in the form of forest programming in the shape of Timber Nook. It could be timbernick birthday parties, Timbernook night experiences, Timber summer camps, field trips for schools, that sort of thing. And then the other opportunity is that we train and license schools to do Timbernook during the day. So they get Timbernook while they're at school, which is really exciting because they're now they're providing for children and they're development while they're at school. So that's always nice.
- [03:01]
Ginny Urich
I've always been impressed, Angie, with the breadth of the options. And you look at different people's programs and they're, you know, in a way they're able to take it and work it around their own life and they're able to offer the programming that works with their life. And I think that's a wonderful opportunity, especially let's say if you're a mother and you want this experience for your kids. You want to make sure that they're getting outside with multi age play experiences and having a large amount of time to be with friends. And maybe you need to have a small side career or a large side career. It's like it can scale up, it can scale down, it can be the day you pick, it can be the timeframe you pick. It can be in the school, it can be out of the school, there can be birthday parties. I mean all of these different things are just such wonderful, wonderful options. And I have been so impressed. It was really cool to see one of the Timber Nook locations kicked off here in Jackson, Michigan with Cassie Butters. Her program had just been smashing success from the very beginning. They're adding a day next year. I mean already the growth is phenomenal. And then coming to your trainings and getting to hear about all of these different wonderful components. We're going to be talking about the trainings here in a bit, how you really support these providers in continuing education. But I wanted to kick off with, you know, you and I talked about there is a big social component that's happening when kids are having their Timber Nook time or when kids are outdoors playing in a space where adults are not intervening and they have enough time to dive into their play. Jerry Kaplan is a guru on artificial intelligence and especially generative artificial intelligence, which is what's happening now where the artificial intelligence is basically learning and is able to do all of these different types of things that no one could have ever really predicted. And so he says the future of jobs is more human than less. That human touch is going to be a huge component of the jobs of now and the jobs of the future. And so we have kids whose lives are fairly structured and a lot of times on screens. What are the differences you see socially between kids who have Timber Nook time, who are playing outside in groups of multi age kids who have a lot of time for that, versus kids who don't have much time to do those things?
- [05:12]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, that's a really great question. I actually have a good, interesting story that happened recently that kind of shows that difference. So my, my own children grew up doing Timbernook. You actually had Joelle, my oldest daughter, come on your podcast before and you know, they grew up out in the woods creating societies, having clans, having to defend their forts, and getting really deep into some complex social play that is becoming more and more rare. And it really helped form them to be able to find their voice when they don't like something or stand up for someone else or, you know, negotiate trade with other people. What's interesting is my daughter, who's 16 now, so my middle daughter is working for her first job, she's working at Market Basket and she was, she's at the cashier register and she was having a conversation with the boy that was bagging. And she's very friendly and she was just like, she likes to keep herself busy and talk to people while she's working. So she's like, what do you do for fun? And he was like, oh, well, I go to work. And he goes, and to be honest, I like to, I, I go straight home and I don't like to go out of my house. And she was like, oh, well, that, you know, that doesn't sound, she goes, well, to be honest, she's like, that sounds kind of boring. And I was like, you know, Charlie, why do you say. But she's like, well, I, you know, it's the first thing that came out of my mouth, so. But he said, yeah. He goes, I don't even like to go hiking. He goes, because it hurts my legs when I'm hiking. And he goes, and I get, when they get a little dirty, he's like, it's really gross. And here my daughter, who did Timber nook and grew up like playing in mud puddles and, you know, climbing trees, was just totally blown away by that. She's like, wow. She's like, a little dirt doesn't hurt, you know, so she was just really, you know, and then she was asking more questions like, do you, you know, what else do you like to do? Do you like to Go fishing? Do you like to go on boats? And he's like, no, I don't like boats. I don't like the wind. Like, so it was really interesting, all these fears and also, like, not wanting to get out of your comfort zone is this theme that keeps coming up over and over again.
- [07:16]
Ginny Urich
And it's interesting, actually, those specific examples you brought up, because before you started Timbernook, you were a pediatric occupational therapist, and that's where our lives intersected, because I was this huge fan. I read the book Balanced and Barefoot when our kids were young and we were getting outside and I was noticing that everyone was thriving, but I didn't really know why. And so I get this book, and you put into words all of the things that I was seeing and then more. And your experience was these kids come into therapy and I'm going to blow a fan in their face. So they're used to having wind, or I'm going to have a little sandbox, you know, that they can play within their fingers. And to the point of now, this teen, you know, who's grown up in that type of a world where we're not immersed in it, you start to see the ramification show up.
- [08:02]
Angela Hanscom
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And it's like, you know, just talking a little bit more about that. Like, for instance, we'll. We'll let kids play in giant mud puddles out here. Actually, today they were doing that. So they were outside and there's like a little bit of the snow is starting to melt and it turned into a little pool of water. And they experienced. They put a pallet there and they just took one plank and they put the plank down. And two boys were like, oh, this is cool. It's making a splash. And then they started walking on it. And more kids were watching them and came over and they putting more planks down and adding to it. And we're creating like a hot lava section. And then the kids were purposely jumping into. I mean, it's kind of cold still, so they're jumping into the water, getting wet, you know, becoming more and more resilient. But I thought they did it for like over an hour and it's. It's still kind of cold. So it was really surprising what they're willing to do when it's in play. But it's a whole body sensory experience versus what you were talking about, like in a clinic setting, you know, a little box of sand is not going to do the same thing as kids playing in giant mud puddles. If you think about it like we're supposed to be sensory experts, occupational therapists, like we're supposed to help organize the senses and provide opportunities to foster that. But if you say, you know, if you bring in a little box of sand, you know, it's pretty shallow, you're restricted on how much space you have and you compare that to kids playing in giant mud puddles looking for real frogs. Now a couple things to think about is first of all, you're not going to worry about the mess as much, right? Because it doesn't matter if dirt gets out of the mud puddle versus like in a little box of sand. You might get some sand outside and you might need an adult to go in and say watch out, like keep the sand in the box. Also, like you can have more children in there, right? So that now you're getting communication skills and you're being inspired by watching other children play. The other thing is like it's whole body, right? Whole body, sensory, head to toe, muddy. They're navigating uneven terrain. I'm sure it's not even under there. I'm sure there's certain smells like it might stink a little bit. You know, the mud smells, you have wind in your face, you have multiple sensations coming at you. So your chances for that sensory integration are going to be higher outdoors. The other thing is like a lot of kids don't want to get dirty anymore, right? They don't want glue on their fingers, they don't want to get messy. The way to override that is through deep pressure. And so you'll hear occupational therapists talk about brushing programs. They take a surgical brush and they will brush a child over and over, like deeply to help override that light touch sense that can feel really aversive. Again, getting dirty can feel yucky to some people. Kind of like what that 15 year old boy was saying. Like it feels gross when I get dirty. And so the way we do that is we brought, we brush children with a surgery, surgical brush. Well, I was thinking about this one day watching kids outdoors. And if you think about it, if you are, let's say playing on the beach where you have a bigger area of sand and you're starting to build a sand castle, while you're getting that light touch sensation, you're also digging in the dirt. And so you're getting that deep pressure that helps to override that light touch sense and actually create change the senses. The same is true when you climb trees. You might feel SAP, which can feel gross. But as climbing the tree, that deep pressure you're getting as you climb helps to override that light touch sense and create change the senses. So we really want to provide opportunities where they're getting big body sensory play that they're getting heavy work at the same time. That deep pressure. Another example would be like building forts, let's say. So if you're picking up a stick, it's dirty, but you're getting that heavy input helps to override and create change to the senses. So going back to the little box of sand, the problem with that is you're getting that tactile touch sensation. You're playing the sand, the little sandbox. But the problem is they're usually very shallow. Those sensory bins are super popular too. If you go on Pinterest, everyone's saying, oh, this is a great sensory experience. However, you're not getting the pressure. You can't dig in the dirt and get that heavy work that helps to override and create change in the senses. If we truly want to create changes senses, we really need to rethink what we call a sensory experience.
- [12:44]
Ginny Urich
Isn't it interesting how God made it so that each season provides different opportunities and that nature innately. I mean, when we went and joined in for Cassie in Jackson, Michigan for the first week of Timber Nook, she brought in a few things, like there was some different props and the kids are playing three little pigs. So there, you know, there was like different fake flowers the kids could use to decorate their home of sticks or whatever. But for the most part it's mostly just nature. Like you said, it's snow melting and now there's a muddy puddle. We might bring over a pallet or two, or we might bring over some logs or things like that, but it's mostly just nature. And every single season, if you're planting in your garden, like you're gonna, you're digging, you're planting a tree, you're shoveling snow, you're pushing the big ball of snow to make a snowman, then you're lifting up the next one to go on top. So it's a never ending opportunity of options that you don't really have to put much work into.
- [13:43]
Angela Hanscom
Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's really the ultimate sensory experience when you step outdoors. You know, one thing to keep in mind too is like, in order to get what we call sensory integration, which is again, organization of the senses and that lays the foundation for learning, you want to think about the environment that kids are in most of the time. So often when I do speaking engagements, I talk about like Think about the room you're in right now, and then think about being on the beach or in the woods. And I'll ask them, like, what sensations are you getting when you step outdoors? And people will often say, like, wind, temperature changes. Another one, like having to regulate the temperature. Uneven ground. You know, indoors, it's all flat, right? You don't have to think about it much, and it's easy. You step outdoors, you're having to constantly adjust your body to the uneven terrain. You have bird sounds. That's another big one. Different smells. Certain smells of trees even actually reduce cortisol levels in the brain. And it's very calming stimuli. When you step outdoors, multiple synapses are firing in the brain, and so your chances for that integration is going to be higher. Then we want to think about also, like, the ideal state for sensory integration to happen. If you look in our OT books, it will say, being in a calm but alert state of mind. So if you look at colors outdoors, you'll often see, like, what, Blues, browns, greens. And those are a calming stimuli. So we'll print, we'll paint our preschools those colors. And, you know, you go for a massage and you hear crashing waves, bird sounds, nature sounds. And so there's a reason why doctors say, bring your babies outside. It's very calming. However, we're still alert because we have to pay attention. The ground is uneven. An animal might run by. So you're really in this calm, alert state of mind. And we want to think about what percentage of time are kids in an environment that's conducive to that organization of the brain, and then what percentage of time are they in an environment that could be disruptive or disorganizing? I often think about our classrooms in this way. Like, in a traditional classroom environment, you'll often see so many posters on the wall, and it can be very visually stimulating or disruptive. Another thing is just getting away from other children. Like, in classrooms, kids are really close to one another, and so that can be really disruptive to kids being so close to each other. But if you go out in the woods, what you'll notice at Timbernook is they often will spread out and they'll play in clusters of small groups. And that can be very grounding for children. The other thing in schools is there's a lot of transitions. So we're constantly. Every 45 minutes, we're like, okay, switch, switch. For kids that have sensory issues, having a lot of transitions can actually be very disorganizing for them. So for Timbernook we often have at least and this is why it's so long is at least two hours of outdoor playtime. Most of our like community type programming so not in the schools is at least like three plus hours but that is also very intentional so that they have less transitions throughout the day. There's a flow throughout the day.
- [17:12]
Ginny Urich
You just get to dive into it. I mean that's like what you love as being a kid is you just get to be and you get to dive into what you're interested in.
- [17:21]
Ann
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- [21:18]
Ginny Urich
One of the things that Kenzie talked about. Now Kenzie's one of your timber Nook providers. She does something unique where she is running a timber Nook program in a school. And so by the time you listen to this episode, you will have had the opportunity to listen to Kenzie talk about, I mean it was such a good episode. Just talk about all the benefits there and how they run it, the logistics. And I was thinking about one of the things that she told me was that the teachers go too. Yeah, the teachers go out as well. And this is a thing that is an all season thing except for, you know, in the summer there might be summer programming but obviously you know, you're doing it through the school year. So these kids are out in the winter, winter and in the fall and if it's rainy. And one of the things that you talked about is how refreshing it is for the adults as well. And I Think that's an important piece too. You know, we're talking about therapeutic benefits for kids and we're living in a really high stress world that this is also helpful for adults. I was actually surprised. I kind of was thinking that probably, and I'm sure schools can do it differently but like, oh, probably the teachers are going to use that for their prep time. But she said, nope, they're going out right alongside the kids.
- [22:26]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, yeah. She purposely, I think their school is in particular purposely tells them that they don't want them doing that. Which is great because she's like, it's part of their education and it actually helps them to be become better observers of development and what's typical development, what's not. But also they can really pull out strengths in children. Like I didn't know that child could be a leader. Like in a. In the traditional classroom it's going to look a lot different than what you could see them do in the woods. And so they'll see kids do things that they don't necessarily witness in the classroom environment.
- [23:02]
Ginny Urich
Yeah, what a great opportunity. And then, you know, in talking with Cassie and I've been, I've gotten to see the pictures throughout the year. The day that she runs her program is in conflict with our schedule. But we're hoping maybe to join in next year but just to be out in that all weather situation. And it would be easy to, you know, to say I'm not going to do that. But you have this group of kids that are depending and you have your own child that wants to go see their friends. So there's a built in good pressure I think to keep going. And even when the weather isn't the most ideal in the sense of being perfect, there's so many experiences to have out there. So once again just lots of opportunities to be involved in Timber Nook in different sorts of ways so people can learn more about that. And I'll make sure I'll put the link up if people are interested. There's this verse that says wisdom is proved right by her children. I don't know if I totally understand what it means, but what I think it means is that it takes a long time for wisdom to show through. That's what I think it means. Or I'm going to make it up. But basically like childhood is long and you see then once you have a child who hits 15 and is like, can't get dirty, I don't do anything, you start to see how that would affect quality of life in the long term. And so it's good to have a perspective. It's good to sort of look around and see.
- [24:21]
Ann
Yeah.
- [24:21]
Ginny Urich
You know, I, I want my kid to be able to be adventurous and a risk taker. And what are some of the steps to get them to be that type of person? And this is becoming more and more common. Kids are not leaving their rooms, they're not leaving their video games. I read a book just recently where it said they're urinating on themselves because they don't want to leave their video game. They're punching holes in the wall because their mom says it's time to turn it off. So this is become. And it's due to the manufacturing of it to make it very addictive. But there are two very distinct paths here that are showing up. One is the child who doesn't leave their home, and then the other is the kid who, because they got to play outside for just, you know, a little bit longer and you putting the time set aside for that, has a different take on life.
- [25:06]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [25:06]
Ginny Urich
Since that boy talked about, didn't want to get dirty. Can you talk about why is it so important that kids get messy?
- [25:13]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, absolutely. So it is like kind of what we talked about earlier, you know, like, it. The more exposure they get to it at an early age, and we can talk about babies too, if we have time, the better off they're going to be because that's where they start to tolerate new situations and new sensations. And they start to. Their brain starts to think, okay, this is safe, like with risky play too. And like, that's part of it. Like, as they take more risks, they get more and more confident with their abilities. Like we often see kids do things out there that they've never done before because there's other children also doing it. And they're like, I did this, like building a fort, for example. Like, we did this all by ourselves. And so that, that confidence is huge. It's like, I am capable, I can be independent in my play and I don't have to rely on adults to do it for me. So I think just having those experiences over and over again in novel ways and that it really creates change to the brain too. Like, it rewires their brain. Like, I am confident, I can do this, I am worthy. You know, like, they start to learn their identity and get strength from that. And then they become models for other children. They become leaders. And so it has that ripple effect as well in their communities.
- [26:33]
Ginny Urich
And this is a little bit of a metaphor, but life is very messy.
- [26:36]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [26:37]
Ginny Urich
And I think, you know, people say you can't be afraid to get your hands dirty. Here you are, you're an entrepreneur. You had no idea your life was going to go this path. And now there's Timber Nook in four countries. You have to be willing to accept and deal with a mess in order to move forward in life. And it looks different, I think, when, you know, when you're an adult, but it's certainly not clean cut if you're going to go out and change the world. So these are really good things. Okay, we're heading into the summer. What about going barefoot?
- [27:04]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah. So barefoot is actually, it's just, I guess we should be doing it a lot more than we are, basically. I worked with a company called Vivobarefoot for a little bit and I remember them first showing me images of what feet should look like. And it kind of surprised me because I didn't realize that, you know, our, we shouldn't have such high arches. Our feet should spread out some. The toe should spread out. And they did research and they looked at those that wore barefoot shoes where you can really feel, as you walk on uneven terrain, you can feel little rocks pushing up on different parts of your feet. And they looked at those people that wore those shoes and I had some for some time. I need to get another pair. Those, they were amazing. And compared it to those that wore shoes all the time. And they found that the low muscles in the feet and ankles were a lot stronger than those that wore shoes all the time. Plus there was also more opportunities for foot deformities and foot pain because you're being overly restricted again. So we were really designed to be barefoot or at least like, you know, with like softer shoes where you can feel the ground as you walk. Sometimes I'll watch children out at Timber Nook where they're barefoot out outside and they, especially in the summertime and they're walking on a log and you can see them like just their ankle moving back and forth and having to compensate, I guess from that as they walk. And it just is really strength through strengthening their foot and their ankle as they walk. I actually worked with someone briefly. He wrote a book and I can't remember the name of it, but he was Dr. Tommy John Jr. I guess he wrote a book about how there was an increase in surgeries in young children because there was a lot of overuse injuries from kids being they were signing up for sports at a really early age. And so he saw a lot of kids doing ballet or like football or, you know, just but one sport over and over again. And what he talked about was certain muscles would get really strong and then certain muscles would remain weak, and then the chances for a break or an injury were a lot higher. And he was a big proponent of outdoor play, too. And so he would be. He was really happy about, you know, the work that you do, the work that Timbernock does and getting kids outdoors, because he said outdoor play is like cross training. And so I always talk about this too when I'm speaking, you know, how if you think about playing outdoors and comparing that to more traditional, like, you know, playground play, I guess this is a good analogy. Let's say a kid goes on a monkey bar and that's all they do. They go back and forth on the monkey bar. What happens is, you know, like, certain parts of your hand are going to get blisters on it because you're hitting the same part over and over again versus climbing a tree. Climbing a tree is different because it's going to hit different parts of your hand and strengthen all of the skin on the hand. And so your chances for a break are going to be a lot less in blisters. And also you're working in all the muscles of the upper body. And so it is like cross training. I do feel like those that play outdoors a lot are going to make better athletes. They're going to be more well rounded and, you know, they're going to be your leaders. Again with sports as well, we have.
- [30:31]
Ginny Urich
That book, it's called, yeah, Minimize Injury, Maximize Performance, A Sports Parents survival guide by Dr. Tommy John. Is that it?
- [30:40]
Angela Hanscom
Yes, that's it.
- [30:42]
Ginny Urich
We actually own that one. I haven't read it. We have a lot of books I haven't read, but I do own it. And I follow him. He's got really cool things. He's really into just like functional movement. He's like, I'm gonna go to the farmer's market, and while I go, I'm gonna carry this concrete. Or just like random, like humans are meant to carry things or just different things that are kind of intriguing. I know for me personally, you know, at this age, I'm in my 40s, and if we go anywhere where we're adventuring and I feel shaky on my feet. So like, we were in Moab, Utah, with this 1000 hours outside trip, and we went up on these big rocks and you had to kind of jump from rock to rock. I always take my shoes off. Yeah, always. I do not feel stable unless I take my shoes off. Because I need that feedback to make sure that I don't fall and I cannot do it unless my shoes are off. So I take them off and it's interesting. Then when you think about kids, it's like this is a, this is a feedback process that the body gives you. And so if you're, if they're in these thick soled shoes, you're not getting that. So, interesting thoughts for heading into the summer. Let's talk about babies. Since you brought up babies, there is sometimes a misconception of, oh well, my kid's a baby this year, so we're not, you know, we don't need to get outside until they're a little bit older. But you do such a wonderful job in balanced and barefoot talking about getting out the babies. And for us, we have, you know, several kids in a, in a short time span. And I felt like by six weeks, three months, it didn't matter what time of year, we would use a bunting in the winter, in the summer we would find a shady spot, we'd use the pack and carry them. They were fairly fine. And our kids, a lot of them, we didn't start going outside for some of them till they were toddler preschoolers, but a lot of them spent that first year with a ton of time outside. What message do you have for parents who are pregnant, for parents who haven't have a newborn or a new little one or four month old? What do babies need?
- [32:37]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, so babies, you know, the sooner you can get them outdoors, the better. I remember watching a three year old one time I was at the beach and a mother tried to take the three year old and put the baby, you know, the toddler sand and the, the feet went up like the, the toddler did not want to get dirty and she was having a little bit of a tantrum about it and there was a lot of fear. And so I always suggest that, you know, start early when they're not cognitively aware that they're going to get dirty, when there is no fear. And actually when I was finishing the last chapter or two of the book, I actually had my son Noah, who's now 9, which is so crazy. But I remember taking him when he was a young infant and putting him in the dirt, like when it out in the grass and he did not like it. And I was like, oh my gosh, like how that's so ironic, right? I'm like, make me proud, you know, like. But he was like, so I put him in the dirt, but I just kept doing it, you know, I kept exposing him to dirt. And what's interesting is once he started crawling, it really helped change things because with crawling again, you're getting that deep pressure that we talked about. You know, that heavy work as he was moving, he was touching that light touch dirt sense. I can feel aversive. But that, that heavy work from crawling helped to override that light touch sense and integrate it and create change. So. And the crawling on, on even ground is so much more beneficial than just crawling indoors where everything is sterile and it's, it's all flat, it's not going to challenge them as much. You take a baby and you put them outside and they're, they're constantly having to adjust their balance. They're getting different inputs, they're getting grass and then they're getting dirt, and they're integrating senses and starting to tolerate new, getting messy from an early age. And so they grow up out there. Plus they're getting all of the benefits we talked about earlier, right? So like having all the synapses firing in the brain, you know, integrating wind, you know, depth perception, they can see further, you know, bird sounds, different smells. And so all of that is helping to integrate the senses, have a well organized system. That's key. The other big one is, and this will talk a little bit about the vestibular sense, but this is key for babies. So in one of your podcasts, we talked a lot about how kids are sitting too much and you're sitting for an average of 9 hours a day is the most recent research I heard. And so that's a lot of seat time. And what really needs to happen is kids need to spin in circles and go upside down and really move in all different ways. So they have a really good, strong balance sense, like a, it's called the vestibular sense. And that sense is key to all the other senses. So if, if kids are walking around with that underdeveloped because they're not moving enough, it can affect everything. And what happens is babies actually when they are born that is fully functioning unless they are preemie, you know, it's not like with vision where babies, when they're born, they see in black and white, and that takes time for vision to develop. With the vestibular sense, that sense is fully functioning and there it's ready to go. However, if you take a baby and you overly restrict them and you keep them from moving enough, that can actually affect the balance sense. And so, you know, a lot of times babies will be put in containers like so you'll. You'll put them in a carrier, and then you're going to put them in the car seat, and then you're going keep them upright. And so what happens is in the inner ear, there's little hair cells in there, and there's fluid. And when I say they need to move in rapid ways, like they need to spin in circles, all of that stuff, like, you know, from an early eight. Well, babies are a little different. Older kids should be able to do that.
- [36:39]
Ginny Urich
No, actually, you bring up a good point, because I. I remember. It's like you'd be. I remember holding my baby less than a year, and they would fling their head back. That's what they wanted to do. And you hold them tight, and they fling back, and they. You pull them back up, and they want to do it over and over, a rapid motion where they're flinging their head out of an upright position. They're seven months, eight months. You know, they're little.
- [37:00]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah. They want you to, like, move them around, right? Yeah. So all of that, what that does is it moves the fluid back and forth in the inner ear, and that stimulates the hair cells and that develops the vestibular sense. Just to explain one aspect of that sense that's really important is that sense helps, you know where your body is in space. Right. So it helps you to get from point A to point B safely, to get on and off playground equipment effectively. It really helps them to navigate their environment without, like, falling off things. And so we really want kids to move a lot more so they can be really capable in their environments. And, you know, sometimes I'll see older kids spinning in circles for fun, and I'll hear an adult say, don't spin. You're going to get dizzy. Or, you know, get off that rock. You're going to get hurt. Hurt. But that's when we become the barrier to neurological development. So with babies, it's the same thing we do want them to be. We want to move them around in different directions. We want to allow them to fall and get back up again, because all of those experiences help them to develop that vestibular sense, which is going to help them navigate their environment safely and not be so clumsy and help integrate the. A lot of the reflexes that are really important for development.
- [38:18]
Ginny Urich
I remember with our babies, you know, we would often bring, like, a big picnic blanket because that's where we were going to have lunch. So we get to somewhere, we'd lay out the picnic blanket. We're going to be there from 9 in the morning till 1 in the afternoon or 10 to 2 or whatever. And you know, you, once they're sitting, maybe you set them on the blanket or they're laying on the blanket or whatever. And I just distinctly remember it's like as soon as they can move at all, they're going for the grass because they're curious. And so also it just gives them an opportunity to like, dive into their own curiosity as a baby. I've got videos of our kids crawling after turtles. I mean, what, you know, you can buy things like that, these like little robotic things, but take them outside. All that stuff is there. You know, they see the squirrel, they, they get to decide which direction they're going to go. And there's this wide open space, you know, for a baby, you know, like that must seem like so huge. You know, if you're at a little park and there's grass and they get, they get to go, they get to find sticks and you can just see, it actually gives them a little bit of agency.
- [39:15]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [39:16]
Ginny Urich
Even as a very, very young child.
- [39:19]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [39:20]
Ginny Urich
We loved getting outside with our babies and there always was ways to work around heat and cold and all those types of things.
- [39:26]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [39:29]
Ann
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- [43:30]
Angela Hanscom
Another thing that people are concerned about for babies is they're Always worried about them putting stuff in their mouth. And that's another thing too. You know, you obviously want to create environment where, like, you try to eliminate as many hazards as possible. Like if there's broken glass, like, obviously you want to watch out for that. If there's like animal feces or whatever, like, you know, don't put them right there. But if it's just rocks and dirt and sticks and stuff, like all of that is, it's okay to eat a little bit of dirt. Like, it's actually good for their immune system if they put a stick in their mouth. Like, the way babies try to figure out things is putting stuff in their mouth. That's how they orally try to figure out what. What they're holding and taking information about it. So, like, if they're chewing on a stick, like those are. That's actually good for them. And that's very normal.
- [44:20]
Ginny Urich
Yeah, I remember it tricky because you don't want them to choke, Right. People talk about that.
- [44:25]
Angela Hanscom
Small rocks, right?
- [44:26]
Ginny Urich
Yeah. The smart. They talk about that quite a bit. But I always say it's a very short season and it is very hard, and you've got to keep your eye on them the whole time. However, it does end quickly, and like you said, they're learning things through those different sensory experiences. So grab the book balanced and barefoot. If you need a little bit more information, there's a whole section there about babies and getting your babies out. Also, you talk a lot about, and this happens in Timbernook, about what seems irresponsible in this day and age, but the adults stepping back. What does that look like and why is it important?
- [44:57]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, this is actually really key and probably one of the hardest things for adults to do when they come out to timber for the first time. But it's really, really important. We can't actually do timber nook if the adults don't do their part. Part. So even when we have a field trip come out, the first thing we do is we have to educate the adults on their role. So we'll. We'll talk about the two rules. For the kids, there's two rules of Timber Duck, but we also have the rule for the adults. And we'll say, and your job is to allow the children to come up with their own play ideas and dive deep into the play schemes without any help from you. And so we ask them to step back and we'll actually go and sit with them to make sure that they step back enough, because you can tell adults to step back, but it's really hard to fully understand what we mean until they go out there, because we're talking like 20ft away, not like 2ft away, and, you know, getting down low. So you're reducing adult presence out there. And the reason why we have them do that is because we have to get the adults out of the way in order to inspire independent play. So when we launch a new Timber Nook location, it's. It's even more important that adults kind of hide. Because what happens is kids are not used to playing independently. They're used to adults directing activities for them. And often the first thing they do is they go try to find an adult. Like, what do I do now? What? Like, they're so used to the adult being the idea giver. And an example of this is over the. Like, in the beginning years, when we first started Timberland Nook, we noticed that if we were too close to the kids while they're playing, let's say they're building a fort, that they would start seeking constant adult reassurance, like, is this okay? Or can you do this for me? Or they would tattle on each other. But if we step back, you know, 10, 20ft and got down low, they would start turning to each other to come up with their own play ideas, execute those play schemes, and also to solve some of their own problems, you know, to learn conflict resolution through play, which is something that we're not allowing them to do enough. And it's really a safe place for them to practice those skills. So it is very key that we have the adults step back, even when it's a field trip. And then knowing when to go in is the other thing. When we train people, we have to really train them like you. We don't want Lord of the Flies. So like, sometimes timber, when people think of timbernook in societies and clans, they think of Lord of the Flies. But we don't want that. We don't want extreme. There are two rules of Timber Nook and that we train them on when. When to go in. Like, when is it important to go in?
- [47:41]
Ginny Urich
And it's interesting to think about it, you know, in generations gone by, I mean, this is typical to what was happening with neighborhood play. The kids were not wandering miles from home. They were somewhat in the area. Lots of kids and adults that was. Or maybe on the porch or indoors making a meal. And if people are screaming or, you know, someone runs in and says so and so got hurt, they. That they're available. Yeah, but they're not. They're not following behind. Right. They're not, you know, right there in it. And it's giving kids so many opportunities to grow. So there's an adult training piece, an adult training component here, which is really cool. I mean, that's life changing too, the way that. That permeates out this part where the adult structured experiences are not happening. This is what makes Timber Nook unique from different other four school programs.
- [48:32]
Angela Hanscom
Yes. Yeah. So we. We do offer pretty intense training. So when a. Let's say an organization wants to become licensed in the program, like we have nonprofit organizations that will license someone to come and train and offer this for the community. Or it could be like you've interviewed something. Some individuals that are private, like, they're like, I need to do this for my community because no one else is doing it or school. If a school wants to do it, they come for five days here at their original location. Unless they're from Australia and they. We have a site in Australia they can go to because it's quite the trek to come here. But they come for five days at the original location where this all started. In my backyard, there's about 12 acres of woodland, and they basically witness the program in action because it's one of those things you don't fully understand till you see it in person. And so every morning they are watching the program, and the first day, it's usually a field trip coming. And so they can see what that looks like and how we set up the envir. The environment to prepare for the day. We do something unique called staging. We stage and do a setup. It's. There's an art form to it to inspire play because adults can't tell them what to do. So we use environment to inspire. And then in the afternoons we're talking about, what is Timbernook? How is it different than other forest programming? Why is this needed more than ever? How is this authentic occupation? Why is it so therapeutic? And then the next day we go to Laconia Christian Academy, who, you know, you talked with Kenzie over there, and they get to see it at the school and sit in the woods with the teachers and ask. Ask questions, hear from them themselves. Like it's a very real experience. It's totally immersive. And then by the end of the week, they're practicing running the program. You know, it like doing the welcome circle, reading the book. Like, you know, how do you stage? What does it look like? They see toddler programming, they see private pro homeschool programming, they see field trips. And so they get to see a variety of different types of programs. And then the second part of the training is we fly someone out to their location and we're there for their very first three days. Because it's one thing doing it in New Hampshire woods, and it's a whole different thing with their own clients and doing it in their woods. So we're there to help them, to give them advice, to like, you know, just be there hands on, you know, to make sure that they have assistance, distance. Then after that's ongoing training. So we have training modules that takes. Take them deeper. We just did one on the mission of Timbernook and Authentic Occupation. What does that mean? You know what? Why is Authentic occupation has to be child directed, it has to be the child's choice, all that stuff. We did one in advocacy. How do you advocate for this to stakeholders when everyone's saying the whole, especially schools, it can be really hard. It's very complicated, counter, Countercultural. To let them play like this for hours at school. And how do you defend that?
- [51:43]
Ginny Urich
Wow. I want to pause there because actually that's really, really cool. I think advocacy is very important. We're currently involved in a situation in our community where I feel like we've become advocates, but also something completely different. But also I have gone to school board meeting and, you know, tried to be an advocate for what matters, but they give you three minutes and I have had people reach out to me and say, we're really struggling in our private school. They don't value this. Can you come speak? You know, what are some of the options here? So that isn't. I think that the advocacy piece is huge because often the parents know. And one of the coolest things that Kenzie said and I just was floored, Angie, by how much. How much percentage of the day was going to Timbernook time, you know, several days a week, it's like two out of the six hours or something like that. Or going to Timbernook time time, which is how schools used to be. Generations passed. So it's not anything that's new. But she said the test scores haven't changed at all. So that's kind of what I've always said. If all things considered stay the same, we don't. Who cares? It doesn't have to get better. It might get better. But if all things considered stay the same and you, your kid could spend 10 hours outside every week through Timber Nook at school. Why that?
- [52:56]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [52:58]
Ginny Urich
So the advocacy, I think that's amazing that you're doing something on advocacy. And I interrupted. But you said you've got all these training modules.
- [53:04]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, yeah. So they. To keep their license, just like being a teacher or a therapist, you. You have to keep doing continuing education. And so we want to arm them with the skills to be able to create change in their communities. Because you're kind of going against the grain and you're sometimes you're starting a business. So. And being an entrepreneur, as you know, Jenny, is not easy. And so like. Yeah, and creating community, like knowing you're not alone in this, like, there's a whole team of us. But.
- [53:34]
Ginny Urich
Yeah.
- [53:34]
Angela Hanscom
And then we have like a lot of chats and speakers come to our group. You. You came one time. Yeah, you came to our conference. We have a conference every year where we have a keynote speaker and yeah. Round table discussions was a chance for Tim providers and schools to come together to talk about some of the hot topics. Topics out there.
- [53:53]
Ginny Urich
The things I loved about the conference was that you're hearing from all of these different Timber Nook programs from around the world. So it's like, well, what is it like in Florida? Yeah, maybe they have different kinds of snakes or, you know, to be able to come together and say, these are the challenges I have in my geographical location. What are other people's ideas? And everybody's place is different. And that's really neat, Angie, to see it, how it plays out in different parts of the country and in different parts of the world. And I got the wonderful chance to talk with Libby Palmer from Timbernook Chitting Folds. And I adore her. And she was talking about how where she lives. It's very much a pushback against the culture of basically taking childhood and making it into, you know, a resume for college that they don't value play in the area that she lives. I mean, I think that's common in a lot of places. But she said, you know, it's very much like that where she lives. And so she's had had a lot of challenges of just spreading the word and getting the information out. So this group of people who have a similar mission, a similar worldview, a similar care for children and a generational impact on children come together.
- [55:03]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [55:04]
Ginny Urich
And there is so, so much power in that. It's wonderful.
- [55:07]
Angela Hanscom
Yes, thank you.
- [55:09]
Ginny Urich
Yes, I love that. Why does this matter now more than ever?
- [55:13]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, it's. Well, well, it's interesting because I recently I was talking to an organization that is going into schools, and these are actually. These are private schools. So they have probably more funding for different special Resources. And they are still seeing a huge increase in behaviors. And the teachers are at the point where they're like, we can't manage this. We don't know what to do. And I remember her saying, like, I can't, can't stop thinking about Timber Duck. She goes after you present. She's like, we desperately need this for our schools now. And she's like, you know, and I was thinking about it like, it's only getting worse, unfortunately, because we know the research is there, but a lot of schools are not doing anything about it. And so if we do nothing, it. It will continue to get worse. And so it's needed more than ever. It's very timely. It's almost a desperate need at this point. We're starting to actually see field trips come, especially with public schools where the kids are play deprived in extreme ways. I've never seen it before. This year has been the worst where it's like the sense of urgency. They know, they're so excited to be at Timbernook and it's like this sense of urgency. We got to get into our play real quick because we only have one field trip once a year for three hours, right? So they're really feeling like, I don't know, is it like the sense of urgency?
- [56:37]
Ginny Urich
I can't get over like panic. It's like panic, like, this is my only chance. And you. And you feel that like when their recess is 120 minutes. That's a school I went and spoke at. It was like they had a lunch combined thing with recess. But that I'm like, that doesn't even count. Kids have to stand in line like, you know, they're trying to say that that counts. But they get one 20, 20 minute recess in the afternoon. That's basically it for age four, all the way through elementary school. School. And you can see that a kid would be panicked because they, their bodies need that. I have a good friend who substitute. Substitute taught in a district near us and she pulled her kids out after a year of substitute teaching because she said in the kindergarten class where she substitute taught and her daughter was in there, she said some of the kids were so out of control with their behaviors at 5 that they're throwing chairs against the wall and they're banging things on the wall. And she said the. The final straw for her was at. She went down to the principal. This, this girl is dangerous to herself. She's dangerous to others. So the girl goes to the principal's office and she said she was there for six minutes. And the principal brought her back and said, I, she's throwing everything off my desk. I can't keep her in here. And she brought one of those like, zip up tents, you know, those like, small tents, and threw a bunch of toys in there and tried to put the little girl in the tent and then left. And my friend who's a substitute teacher was like, that's not gonna work. You know, and also, that's just odd. But that's not the kid's fault. I mean, you have so much compassion for these kids who are put in these situations that are not designed to be in line with their bodies. And so then they're freaking out. And rightfully so, rightfully so. And then it becomes possibly even dangerous to them or to the other kids in the classroom. And yes, the solution is simple.
- [58:19]
Angela Hanscom
Oh, yeah. Well, the other thing we were noticing is kids are like, they were jumping off of the big giant boulders, like, and, and like, and not paying attention to their risk assessment is not there. And I've never seen that many children do it where they were not even. Like, usually what happens is kids know their bodies pretty well and they can, they can really regulate that. This is a, the first time I was really concerned, like, oh my gosh, like, one kid was literally going off of a giant rock trying to go towards a fort with sticks. And I had to go over and be like, what, you know, are you, are you really paying attention to what's happening right now? Like, and having to talk him through it? But yeah, so the risk assessment is not quite there. And like, you talked about, like, much more. Appears to be aggressive behavior, all sorts of interesting things going on.
- [59:10]
Ginny Urich
Because their bodies are speaking. Yeah, their bodies are speaking and saying, you know, you, you've said some things in the past. Like, it really stuck with me. And I know we need to wrap it up here, but you had talked about you went to a middle school school. This story really stuck with me. You went to a middle school once. You're like, I just want to see what it's like for these kids, you know, to sit through day. And you were like, you got to lunch and you were like, I'm out. I can't do it. And you have said. One of these quotes I share a lot is you're like, if the decision makers, the decision makers should have to sit through it, they should have to go to a full day of school for five days a week and only get a 20 minute break in the afternoon, you know, before they're allowed to make these decisions. How do their bodies feel? You know, what does this do to them when they're crowded in? I mean, how often are you with adults in a crowded situation like that now? You know, hardly. You have mostly your own space. You've got your own cubicle or whatever the situation is. And so there does appear to be a somewhat of a lack of empathy there and just more so maybe just a lack of information, but you're changing the world. You're changing the world, Angie. And I'm so grateful that we're connected. I mean, truly, it means so much to me and I always love being around you and your people. Your people are wonderful. And so a huge, huge thank you to you for being on today. I'll make sure I put in all the links. If people are interested in becoming a timber nook provider, in bringing timber nook to their schools, I'll put all of those links on there. People speak about it with the highest regard. They say, oh, I'm so, so glad I did it. And they, they. I don't even know what the word is. They glow about it. That's not it. But, like, you know, they're just so thankful that they did it and so, like, flowery in their language, talking about their experience. So, Angie, really, really appreciate what you're doing and your time with us today.
- [60:49]
Angela Hanscom
Thank you. Thanks so much. It's always a pleasure talking to you.
- [60:56]
Ginny Urich
What if more important than being right.
- [60:58]
Angela Hanscom
Is how we handle being wrong?
- [61:00]
Ginny Urich
Holding tightly to ideas that can't adapt with new information is not a virtue, it's a vice. I'm Heather Thompson Day, and I'm inviting.
- [61:09]
Angela Hanscom
You to join me over on my podcast, what if I'm Wrong?
- [61:11]
Ginny Urich
Where I'll be your guide through real life questions.
- [61:15]
Angela Hanscom
Okay, today we have a submission story, and it is wild.
- [61:19]
Ginny Urich
Subscribe to what if I'm Wrong? Available wherever you listen to podcasts. Let's be real. Talking about intimacy can be awkward, even with your spouse. But it doesn't have to be. We are Alana, Kyle, and Tia, hosts.
- [61:39]
Angela Hanscom
Of the Kingdom Sexuality Pod podcast, and.
- [61:41]
Ginny Urich
We'Re all about keeping it real and.
- [61:42]
Angela Hanscom
Helping you add some spice and deeper connection into your marriage. Specifically, when it comes to what happens in the bedroom, we don't shy away from the tough conversations that often get missed in Christian circles. With us, you'll get laughs, tips, fresh ideas, and challenges to strengthen your relationship and bring it to the next level.
- [61:59]
Ginny Urich
Because, let's face it, navigating intimacy as a Christian can be confusing, and finding safe, wholesome resources can be tough. So subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week on the Kingdom Sexuality Podcast.