Ginny Urich (3:28)

And I think, you know, you read a book like this, and I've read some different books where. And sometimes it's like a friend has written it, and you read the thing and you're like, oh, I didn't know that. It's very brave to put it into the world. But also it's one of those things that people can grasp onto and say, well, I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one. Like, you talked about this. You talked about.

Kyle (3:49)

You have this path.

Ginny Urich (3:50)

A lot of parents have this path that they expect for their child. Like, what is the path? It's like prom and graduation and the ceremony, and you have this idea of it's sleepovers and the little League and. And you say we were off the path. And I think so many parents could relate to that and say, I thought it was going to be like this, but it's not. And you're talking about, well, can I find joy on this other path? Can my child find joy on this alternate path? So I just think that that bravery, it connects with people where they need to be connected with so that they realize that they're not alone. Can you give us a little background? So you have two adopted children, two beautiful adopted children, and your wife struggles some with. It's called complex ptsd, Struggling, getting out of bed, even, and sort of all of these factors at play that make home life feel chaotic. I mean, you're really honest about it. Like, you say you feel like you're in triage.

Will Acuff (4:43)

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, so. So to kind of paint the picture, right. I've Got two different things happening simultaneously, right? High highs, low lows. So in the outside world, you know, my wife and I had started a non profit where we help, you know, neighbors from historically low income communities start and then grow their own small businesses so they can get out and stay out of poverty, right? So like we've got all of that happening.

Ginny Urich (5:09)

Tell us a little bit more. Well, while we're here, tell us a little bit more about that. It's called corner to corner. You talked about one specific sit was about a notary. I mean, there was like these really cool examples.

Will Acuff (5:19)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that that story was, you know, my wife and I, coming from a faith background, realized that we didn't really have what I would describe as a theology of neighbor. Like how do you love neighbor as self, not as like a one time event, but as a lifestyle, right. And so 18 years ago, we moved into a low income neighborhood to start to do life and learn what we needed to learn, right? And, and the neighbors were so gracious, so loving. Loving enough to be like, hey, will, you' idiot again. And your foot's in your mouth, right? That kind of like real relational love. And in the after five years of living that, you know, community life, we just saw over and over again that economic opportunity was like this, you know, linchpin that could send an individual or a family spiraling. And so that's why we started to wrestle with what does it look like to give amazing neighbors a bridge of opportunity to bring their, you know, creativity and passion and drive into the marketplace, right? So that's why entrepreneurship and you know, we share that story. That's Adrian Bowling. I'll be with her later today. She was a mom in the neighborhood who was like, you can never find a notary when you need one, right? I think they work like every third Tuesday for nine minutes. She's like, I'm going to be the mobile notary. I'm going to be the uber of notary services, right? And she did that. Hit 35,000 in revenue. But then her growth stalled out. She didn't really have a business plan past that. She came to our program held at local rec centers, you know, where she lived. And following that, she did 85,000 in revenue and was able to make radically different choices for her family. I say all that to say that was our life, like outside of our, of the four walls of our house, right? Something that started on your front porch ends up, you know, launching 1400 entrepreneurs. And everyone's like, look at this, it's amazing. And you're like, and I'm dying inside, right? And I think a lot of people can relate to that, where they've got maybe one part of their life that feels like it's really going and another part that feels like it's stuck. And for us, the journey of that kind of stuckness, if you will, was my wife and I, we always wanted to grow our family through adoption. It was part of our kind of. Even we talked about it when we were dating, you know what I mean? And when we adopted our son, both, both kids at birth and we brought him home, everything was just like the typical path, right? We're hitting all the milestones, the doctor's appointments are the way that you want them to go, all the things. And then we had this T bone moment, right, where I think you're going on your path and then you get T boned. And for us, that was. Our son stopped sleeping. And not just like a couple nights here and there, but it was nights that turned into weeks, that turned into months, that turned into years. You know, sleep studies, Vanderbilt University here in Nashville. Surgeries to open up airways, right? All the different things. And we initially, you know, you think, oh, we're going to go and we're going to learn what the thing is, and then somebody will hand us the playbook, right? And then you're talking to the doctor who is like the best in the region, the Southeast, and they're like, yeah, I don't know how to go further than this. Good luck. Right? And. And we had that moment over and over and over again. And eventually we, you know, several different diagnoses. And our daily life was so intense, right? And we're talking, you know, neurodiversity kind of stuff, right? As well as social, emotional stuff, as well as even rare disease categories where, like, if our son runs the 40 yard dash halfway through his muscles, they can't process glycogen well, and starts to shut down his kidneys, right? Like things that you just. I didn't know any of that existed, right? So that's happening. And then my, my wife, Tiffany, through her own, you know, journey of, of trauma and her own background, gets into this place of, of, you know, clinical depression. And I realized in that season that I had only ever learned to approach life with a problem and solve mentality, right? Like, see a problem, fix a problem. And I'm approaching my son out of love, like, hey, I really want to help you, but I'm trying to solve. And that is no way to engage with a Human that you love, right. No one wants to be a problem you're trying to fix. They want to be a human that you know and enjoy. Right? And so I'm in this negative spiral where I'm just like, why won't you let me fix you? Right? To my son and to my wife. And finally, my wife found this amazing trauma intensive retreat center in our family. We call it trauma camp. Right? Yeah. And it's this beautiful outdoor place. Like, you know, it's gorgeous setting. And she comes back from that, she goes, hey, you need to go. And I was like, do I though, Right? Like, my. I think my actual words were, haven't we been therapized enough as a family? Never a good sign if you're making up words to debate your spouse, Right? Like, that's not a good direction. And. But my wife's an enneagram 8. If you know that world, you know, the fighter, challenger role. And she gives me that look that says, like, this is not a discussion. This is a decision that has already been made. And so I, I, I go to this trauma camp, and day one, I've got a chip on my shoulder. I'm here to get language to fix you. Right? I'm to fix my wife. And by the end of day two, I am cracked open and I'm just weeping. And I'm connected with myself. Right. In a beautiful way and realize that in addition to treating everybody else as a problem to solve, that's how I was approaching myself. Right. I was not a person to be known and enjoyed. And that began this radical shift in my life that, that has led to this book and this, this experience.

Ginny Urich (11:41)

No elevator to Everest. And so what you're talking about then is how to get out of this survival state. And I thought we could maybe frame it in this context of dreading summer, because I think there's a lot of people that dread summer. And you know that because when school goes back in the fall, then people are very excited. So you're coming up into this part where you dread summer. But before we. I just want to say this because of the notary thing and the 1400 entrepreneurs. There's this man named Chip Layton, and he, like, totally did a career shift where all he talks about now are the silly texts and things that teenagers send their parents.

Will Acuff (12:18)

Oh, you have seen this.

Ginny Urich (12:19)

It's great. The book is called what Time Is Noon? And he said one of the best parts with teens is when they have to start filling out forms for different types of things. And he says one of the top questions that kids ask their parents is, am I a notary? He said, they also ask, am I a member of clergy? So anyways, an amazing thing that you're doing with Corner to Corner nonprofit, if people want to find out more about that, where can they find that?

Will Acuff (12:46)

Yeah, they can go to corner to corner.org or just at Corner to Corner on Instagram. Those are two great places to check that out.

Ginny Urich (12:53)

Okay, so people want to learn more about that. That's fantastic. So let's talk about this dreading summer. You talk about this thing called the default future.

Will Acuff (13:02)

Yeah, yeah.

Ginny Urich (13:03)

Can you explain what that is?

Will Acuff (13:05)

Yeah. So this is like a psychological, you know, term. Like, you'll hear counselors maybe use it, right? Where it's. You automatically expect the future to look exactly like the present, even though if we're honest and look back at our past, it is always changing. But for some reason, the human brain has gotten so good at going, well, things will always be like the last 10 months. And so our brain can get into this loop of expecting kind of similar pain maybe, or similar disappointment or it's especially potent with negative thoughts. And so we would, you know, the. The summers when services got canceled for our son or the schedule shifted and school wasn't in session in the same way, right? All these things meant that we were in a free fall, right? And it felt like the walls were closing in. And by, you know, August, when he's about to go back, we're like, oh, my gosh, will we make it right? Like, that was the emotional experience. And, you know, meanwhile, for him, like, my son is amazing, and he's like, let's just go to the pool again. Like, let's do that, right? But we're, like, so tired. And we got to this point after, you know, experiencing trauma camp, where I was like, do we have to do that kind of summer? Right? And my default future would have said, yes, that is the only summer that exists for you forever. Right? And I was like, wait, I don't think that's true. And so my wife and I, we started dreaming together, going, wait a minute, what would it look like? And. And we came up with this idea, the big Leap summer, right? Like, instead of being in Nashville, we're going to be gone the whole summer, right? And. And we started with this cornerstone trip idea, which was through a friend of a friend, we found a little casit Costa Rica in a mud Road Surf Village, 45 minutes from a gas station, right? Because, you know, with our son's unique challenges, we can't do hotel rooms very easily, right? So it needed to be like, let's get a place with a couple acres and a house, you know, out in the middle of nowhere. And so we're, we were there for a month, you know, for, for the, the cost of one week in Florida. But it was, it connected. I mean we're in the jungle, there's howler monkeys above our heads there. There are, I'll never forget my daughter, my amazing nine year old daughter. She's like walking back from helping load the car to go to the beach that day and she's like, I was like, but what happened? Knowing how many scorpions there are in the area, right? And she sits down, we take off her little water shoe and shake out and there's a dead scorpion. And I had this moment. I was like, oh, this is a formative moment. This could go either way on the trauma scale, right? Like that parent awareness you get sometimes, right? And I said, penelope, you are so tough that I think you just killed a scorpion with your bare foot. And meanwhile, I'm texting Tiffany and I'm going, please send me photos of what it looks like, you know, if you get stung by a terrible scorpion. And that day we actually, I went to a beach about an hour away that I knew was 10 minutes from the local clinic. So if her foot did start swelling, like I knew where to get help. But it, it was great and her foot was fine and we spent an amazing day at the beach. And my son like with his sensory needs, right, he has, he wants high input sensory. He would just go out into the ocean and get rocked by the waves, right? And it was wild and it was slightly dangerous, but it was, you know, I, I, I know kid directed, right? Is a big theme. And, and this was a kid directed. We are coloring outside the lines. What will we find together as a family, right? And how will it start to rewrite the future so that we're never stepping into a default future again.

Ginny Urich (17:02)

It's a really hope filled book.

Kyle (17:05)

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Ginny Urich (21:01)

You brought up this sort of type of question quite a bit. What if we decided?

Will Acuff (21:05)

Yeah.

Ginny Urich (21:06)

So you talked about it in terms of a lot of things. It was like, what if I decided to have a better morning? What would that look like? What if we decided that we're going to have an incredible summer?

Kyle (21:15)

What?

Ginny Urich (21:16)

I mean, people listening to this, it's, you know, it's April. This book just came out on April 1st and maybe they're dreading the summer. And the question is, what if you decided? And I think the questions for me, like when I read them and then thought about them in my own life, but also thought about them in the context of what you were writing, it's a very sort of like playful question, inquisitive, it's exciting. It opens up this door to possibility. What would that look like? And you talked about even like when you go to Costa Rica for a month, this is a different path. So you're talking about what's the typical path? Well, it might be like sports camp. How boring is that? Sorry. To all the people that do sports camp, but like, it's so boring. I, we did a little bit of it last summer because our kids, we had a shakeup situation with church and community. So we're like trying to help our kids build new relationships. I was like, this is kind of awful. I'm like sitting inside of a gym for hours. But that's sort of like your typical thing, right? And you go off the path. Well, you're in Costa Rica. And I love how you say, well, it's not like it was perfect.

Will Acuff (22:19)

No.

Ginny Urich (22:19)

Penelope broke her arm.

Tira (22:21)

Yes.

Ginny Urich (22:21)

I mean that's thrown in there with the howler monkeys and the mangoes and standing in the ocean. She also broke her arm on the playground. So it's not like it's without challenges. But it was so out of the box of. You can just feel it like where you're like dreading it so much and then you're like. Or at the ocean.

Will Acuff (22:40)

Yeah.

Ginny Urich (22:40)

And what you said was by far the best part was that our family began to believe that we could do new things. There was no default future. We could actually have a new life. Can you talk about the other times when you took this question of what if I decided to have a different morning? What if we decided to not complain and blame each other? You talked about that with your wife.

Will Acuff (23:03)

Yeah.

Ginny Urich (23:03)

And sort of this you talk about almost like a spiritual imagination.

Will Acuff (23:07)

Yeah, yeah. No, thank you for, for picking up on that. I think play is at the heart of this book, Right. I think so many times when we come at, oh, my life needs a new direction. We start with task, right? And we start with kind of this muscular. I'm gonna change me, right? And it has this kind of like, I almost think of a fist that's clenched, right? And coming out of, you know, my, my, my experience and my shift, I, I had done my life that way. I had had plenty of tight fist life and it hadn't given me joy. Right. And I would prefer life giving, loving relationships and joyful play than maybe certain outcomes, right? And so the, the, the question that you're getting to is like, what would it look like to decide and then to explore into that decision, right? So it's playful, it's hopeful. And then I made it really specific, right? So Costa Rica is an example, but another one would be what would it look like to start my mornings with joy, right. And with a child with a sleep disorder, right? Like my day last night started at 12:30. That was the first time he woke up last night, Right? Like the first day, the day before was almost not over. And my new day started, right? But I, I said, well, I'm gonna have to go to bed earlier. Am I willing to make that commitment? Right? So I get a decent chunk of sleep and then I'm gonna have to wake up before he wakes up.

Ginny Urich (24:46)

I mean, you're talking about early, early because we were talking before we started that you live in East Nashville area and there's some really cool restaurants there. We came and stayed one time and I was like, wow, there's a lot of cool restaurants. You were like, I hardly go because I'm in bed by 7:45.

Will Acuff (25:00)

Yeah, that's right, Right. Like, I joke that, like, it would take a big payday to get me out of the house past 8pm you know, so much so that I haven't ever seen it, right? So, like, yeah, it's go to bed early. And then it was, well, where. How am I going to set the stage for this kind of morning? And so, like, I moved a coffee maker, like a little single K cup next to my bed so that I wouldn't accidentally wake up my son in the kitchen, right. I moved a chair by a window, right. So that I could sit there, get still, connect with myself, right. And do the kinds of things that I never gave myself permission before because I was just trying to solve a problem, not trying to create a landscape of joy, right? And so that's the. There's a practicality to this. Like, where are you going to meet yourself? Right. I mean, you talk a lot about being outside. And for me, it is critical that I get to our local park and be in the forest at least four or five times a week, right. Like, that is a part of my rhythm. There's this tiny little side trail, you know, in downtown Nashville that not very many people know about, that takes you by this little beaver dam, and there's like two ambitious deep beaver trying to flood my part of Nashville, right. And I just love sitting there, there and waiting for the moment where they might come out at dusk. You know, like, I. I started to look for those opportunities that rewired everything about my life.

Ginny Urich (26:37)

I think it's a very, very powerful question because you're talking about taking 100% responsibility. That's part of the book, too, where you're like, I'm not going to be a victim. And even if you take the role of a hero, you're also still a victim. Like, if you're the hero, the villain, or victim, you're all. Those are all technically victims.

Will Acuff (26:54)

Yeah, that's right.

Ginny Urich (26:54)

Because of the way that you're relating with each other. So you say, I'm going to take responsibility. And so the question, I think, could be extrapolated into so many different situations. What would it look like? You know, you talk about your whole day approaching a day with joy. What would it look like approaching my job? What would it look like with these relationships? What would it look like? I mean, there's just so many ways that you can go with that. It sparks something inside of you. Like, for me, I'm like, okay, well, what would it look like if I. I always get my work done, but I feel quite overwhelmed about it. Like, for example, you were up at 12:30. So was I. I was finishing reading your book. I was like, if I don't I was like, I don't quite know what I'm gonna do if I don't quite finish it. And then I like, I'm up at 7:30, I took my notes and I did finish it, but I felt overwhelmed about it. So I'm like, well, there's no point in feeling overwhelmed if I always finish anyway, it doesn't really matter. And what an awesome opportunity to have this. So I don't know, there's just so many ways you could take it.

Will Acuff (27:52)

Yeah.

Ginny Urich (27:52)

What would it look like if.

Will Acuff (27:54)

Yeah, I mean like let's, let's use that example, right? One of the big shifts is to meet yourself with compassion and curiosity, right? Versus like the default mode is meet yourself with pressure, meet yourself with deadlines, meet yourself with a list of other people's judgments about your choices and about the way you're raising your kids, right? Like every parent knows when you step out the door, you never step out the door. Just you and your kids. You've also got, you know, grandparents voices and a hundred other people's voices judging your every little move, right? And I think we've gotten so used to that as the way we do life that the shift and it's radical, right, is to first go, wait, what would it look like to meet myself every morning with a little compassion and a little curiosity and then walk that out, right? So, so, you know, like, let's take your example of the pressure you felt finishing the book. You're. I'm imagining that somewhere behind there is a story of this is what it means to be prepared, right? This is what it means to come to the table. And with my best, right? There's these things, right? And inviting yourself to go, wait a minute, what if today I did 80% okay?

Ginny Urich (29:17)

And I did think about that because I was like, well, what would it look like if instead of taking notes, I just had dog eared the pages where I'd really start things or different things like that. And I didn't have to worry about it because I did end up getting it done. And so it's like, what if I looked at, you know, a certain day with, you know, what would it look like to approach the day without having feelings of overwhelm?

Will Acuff (29:38)

Yeah. Is that even possible? Right? Because this is, you know, most of us don't even believe that that is a possibility. We've gotten so used to going, no, no, no, this is just the way it is. Right? And so even giving ourselves permission to start to dream like this, right? It gives you just that little Bit of space where you go, oh, man, my chest doesn't feel so tight. Right. Because you feel it in your body. This is not just like a game. This is a whole integrated person. Right? Mind, body, spirit, that, that can really open up some, some different avenues for you.

Ginny Urich (30:19)

And you see how powerful it's been for you. I liked how you wrote Will that these are practical ideas you wrote. I was at a place where I was a drowning man grasping onto anything that might get him one more breath. The drowning man has no time for theory. Either it works or it doesn't work. And so you say, like, you're starting to come undone every day. Every single day you're flooded with stress. And you talk about that your childhood was kind of like that too. So you, you're living this life and then this question of, what if it were different really starts to shift things and you have these different dreams. One of the situations, and I think a lot of people would relate with this, is what would it look like if my needs were met? You talk a lot about scarcity in the book, and that comes from some religious upbringing in being a pastor's kid, which my husband is a pastor's kid, so he totally relates to, like, you know, just like, he didn't have the shoes that everyone else had and all the things. It's a thing.

Will Acuff (31:17)

Yeah, it's such a thing. And, you know, when we're kids, most of us don't learn. Kind of a well thought out, you know, guide to engaging with resources as a human. Right. Like, that's a, that's a tricky topic. And I think a lot of us gather what we, what we end up believing through kind of osmosis. Right. What's the vibe with mom and dad in the kitchen when they're talking about that unexpected Bill? What are the stories my family tells about other people? You know, like, oh, they took that trip. Wouldn't that be nice? Right? Like you, you, we say those things and our kids are like, oh, okay, now I'm starting to get the boundaries right. And I think for me, you know, I had so many of those beliefs that set me off in scarcity, such that I knew I wanted more. Right. But I wouldn't give myself permission. And it inherently, if I did get more, I'd figure out some kind of subconscious way to make it less, to go back to where I was comfortable. Right. And I think a lot of us have those kind of patterns. But, you know, I, I, I share in the book there is a moment because I truly believe and not just coming from a faith background, but for in general, right? Like there's. There is hunger all over the world, and yet there is enough food in the world to feed everyone two and a half times over. I think proficiency and sufficiency is the reality of the world, right? But it's not necessarily how we live. And I had this moment where we got a, you know, a couple unexpected medical bills, which is the story if you're a family with disability. Like that is. That is the jam, right? Like you are just gonna get that. That envelope which is always thicker than you want it to be. And we were having some of those moments. And then also we live in like a 1910 old, you know, house that has been kind of flipped, you know what I mean? But like, not all the way. And we're the only house that has a dirt subfloor, right, like in our little area. And so whenever they would redo some old house in the neighborhood and, you know, tear it down, build a new one, all the rats in the neighborhood knew, oh, that's the house that we can tunnel under because they don't have a cement basement, right? So we're. These medical bills were invaded by rats. I'm working in a non profit, downwardly mobile. My car is zip tied together, right? Like, true story. And our roof starts leaking, right, From a little bit of a tornado. Because Nashville, we get tornadoes. And an act like a bullet hole, right, had come through the roof over the kitchen. So that was, you know, this is the, the what's happening? And I'm going, how in the world, right, are we gonna. We gonna get out of this? And now believing in sufficiency and, and you know, the providence in my background, the providence of God. I go out to the mailbox and there's a check from my third grade Sunday school teacher that covers us building essentially a rat moat, right? Which is, you don't want to live in a house that requires a rat moat, right? And then another person was like, hey, what are you going to do about your car? And I said, oh yeah, think I'll buy a used one for my older brother or my younger brother. He's in the car industry. And this guy was like, hey, I don't want you to do that. I see what you guys are doing in the nonprofit world, and I love that. Here's a check for the car. I didn't ask for it, it just came. And then another guy brought his, his own mentor to our coffee. I'd never met his, his mentor. And he said, hey, man, this is a guy who just loves me really well. And I think you benefit from, from his wisdom. And we start talking and getting to know each other and he hears about the roof and he just goes, hey, I don't want you guys to ever see a bill for that. Send me the name of your contractor. And this happened in the span of two weeks. So if we live in a world where that's possible, why would I get stuck in scarcity? And so it's, it's that invitation to go, oh, if I'm not going to live out of that old story, what's the new story that I'm willing to try on? Right. And am I, am I willing to explore into that?

Ginny Urich (35:27)

The rat thing is a thing because my parents had it.

Will Acuff (35:30)

Yeah.

Ginny Urich (35:31)

It was such a thing. I mean, the person, they had to come so many times, it was in their backyard. I mean, it was like I'd never heard of it, but I mean, it is like, I want to read it. What Mike, the rat guy, what he recommended was to dig a trench around the entire house, bury some chicken wire, cover the chicken wire with cement, and then install traps everywhere else. This is a multi week. I mean, I remember this, my dad was telling me, like, they keep coming back, they keep coming back. They had to tear out all of this landscaping stuff. Like it's a really big deal. And it reminded me about, you know, the, because these are huge stories and you say they happen within a two week period of time. But the, the Bible, it says the Lord is close to the brokenhearted and he saves those who are crushed in spirit. And so you are in this spot where you have all this turmoil going on and all of these different layers of your life and God promises to save. And so in this. And so it changes the default future. You wrote. I gotten so good at catastrophic thinking, yet time after time, God had proven himself faithful to me. So it's like you have to change that default future setting. Because you talk about like if you have a loved one with a disability or you feel like you're almost always out of money, there's never enough. What little is there will be gone faster than we can replace it. And so you talk about the birds. What does it say in the Bible about the birds?

Will Acuff (36:52)

Yeah. So this idea, right? Jesus is either really onto something or he's never, he could never read an audience, right? Like, let's talk about the people he's talking to. Where this is an agrarian society. These are folks who are one bad harvest away from starvation. And he's looking at these folks and he says, guys, don't worry. Look at the birds of the air. They don't sow, they don't reap, and yet they are taken care of. Right? And I love that notion because. Because there's this idea of, like, the. The most responsible thing that you can do as someone in our society is work yourself to death. We approve of that choice, right? That's what safety looks like. That's what responsibility looks like. You know, in Christian circles, that's what stewardship looks like, right? And here we have the author. I've saying, y'all, actually, you don't have to worry, even if you don't know what the next harvest looks like. Oh, my gosh, how challenging, right? And I mean that in the most loving way because my. My worry has never added anything to my life is only ever taken away. It has not made me more creative. It has not made me more driven, Right? It has, like, it hasn't done those things. It's made me more frantic. It's made my chest tighter. It's probably contributed to all this gray hair that none of your audience could see, but it's very gray, right? And so this idea of, like, what would it look like to believe that you are okay now, no matter the context, right?

Ginny Urich (38:33)

Because that's how it is. And so if you have all of that worry, you didn't need to. In retrospect, in hindsight, the worry wasn't needed because God provided. And I think, what a fun God. How much more fun is it that you get the random check from your third grade Sunday school teacher and it's fun for you and him. It's fun for that person because they send it. They think they're supposed to send it, right? And then they're like, oh, the rats. We didn't even know about the rats.

Will Acuff (39:02)

The rats was not in the memo line, right? Like, but. But I think this is. This is true for all of us, right? We know there's an internal call going, hey, this is the way I want you to be. This is the way I want you to live your life. Right? And even when we think about our kids, we can be so motivated in worry and fear for the choices we're making with our kids and for our kids that we're never present with them. We're never actually being still enough, right? What is it? So what does it look like to. To learn to. Not in one fell swoop, right? Our brains. Neuroplastic things, right? You've wired your brain for decades of worry. This will take time and practice, right? But why not start today? Why not make that tiny little shift to start to unclench a little?

Ginny Urich (39:52)

Yeah, what would it look like if I believed that my needs were met? Or I believe that I have enough time or that type of thing Vacation.

Kyle (40:00)

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Heather Thompson Day (41:16)

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Kyle (42:47)

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Ginny Urich (44:02)

When you talked about the Big Leap, is that coming from Gay Hendricks? Yeah, the Big.

Will Acuff (44:05)

I love that book so much. It's why we named it the Big Leap Summer.

Ginny Urich (44:10)

Yeah, I wondered. Okay. Because then you brought up too like sometimes we self sabotage ourselves back down. He's been on our show twice so I. I love that. Yeah, he's fantastic. Gay Hendricks, the Big Leap. That's a life changing book. I think so. I just want to read what you wrote. The birds neither sow nor reap. They don't store into barns. The birds are not busting their tail feathers to produce and store away. Yet the birds have peace. We might say it another way. The bird's peace comes from the absolute trust that his maker is for him and will provide. His trust is not grounded in his own efforts, but on the providence of the Most High. If God Owns the cattle on a thousand hills. We don't have to.

Will Acuff (44:49)

Oh, it's good.

Ginny Urich (44:50)

It's good. Okay, so this is in this book. No elevator to Everest. Talking about scarcity and just sort of really working through your mindset and imagination and things like that. Tell us about your front porch 50k friendship run.

Will Acuff (45:04)

Yeah. So this was, it was my birthday and in the past when I had been kind of in, you know, that stuck mode, right. I would have looked at my birthday as an opportunity to get alone somewhere and lick my wounds. And I wouldn't have said that. I would have just said something like, hey, can I have some me time? But it was like that me time that feels desperate. Do you know what I mean? Where you're not even totally sure what you should do with your meantime. You're just like, I need to get away. Well, fast forward, you know, all this, you know, years of kind of developing this daily practice and being compassionate with myself and not having to get it. It Right, Right. But to explore with hope and love and compassion. It's my birthday and I was like, man, what would give me the most joy on my birthday? Well, I love running and I love especially like running in the forest and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I was like, all right, I'm going to invite all my friends, just whoever can come to do a front porch friendship 50K. We're going to start on my front porch. And no one can know the route but me because today is not about speed. It's about relationship and conversation. And so you don't know where we're going. So we have to stay together. Right. And. And my brother John was willing to be out there at the crack of dawn, which I was very grateful for. But there are about seven or eight of us who started out, so.

Ginny Urich (46:28)

But did you know the route? You knew the route?

Will Acuff (46:30)

I, I knew the route.

Ginny Urich (46:31)

How far is 50k? 30 miles.

Will Acuff (46:34)

Like 32ish miles. Right in there. Yeah.

Ginny Urich (46:37)

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that. You're just going to be out running. People are going to join in.

Will Acuff (46:45)

Yep, yep. And, and no spreadsheet, no, like sign up form. And so people would text me and be like, hey, man, I just, whatever. I just got done with church. It was a Sunday. Just got done with church. Where are you? And I'd be like, meet me at this intersection on the forest trail. You know, and people would show up. And at no point that day did I run alone. And, and finally the weather got a little shifty late in the day, in the last couple miles, I am in extreme pain, and the last guy I was with has to go home. And I was like, okay, I guess I'm ending this by myself. And right then, a friend pulls up, and he's like, let's go. And when we finished, he was kind enough to drive me to our grocery store and buy me, like, a gallon bag of Epsom salts. Yeah. And that's how the birthday ended. And it was such a beautiful day of connection with people I love.

Ginny Urich (47:37)

Wow. And they're always remember that what a different thing than licking your wounds and just being alone.

Will Acuff (47:44)

Wow.

Ginny Urich (47:45)

It's interesting because I didn't know what to expect talking with you. Like, I'm. I was. You know, you read your book, and it's heavy. It's heavy. And so I was thinking, like, is this guy gonna seem really heavy? And I don't really think about that too much, but because the book was so heavy, I just thought, you know, is he gonna seem kind of down and out? Did the book really work, that type of thing? And the art is, like, so buoyant. And so it's really cool to have this conversation and to, like, sort of see it in real time that you did have this huge transformation. I think a lot of people can relate at least to maybe having a season in their life where they feel like they were totally drowning. And it's like you have. You have been able to shift that, which. That's the subtitle of the book called Shift. Even though your circumstances didn't change, even though the diagnoses didn't change, you know, none of that changed. It was like you were able to change. Can we wrap it up with this beautiful story of the prodigal son?

Will Acuff (48:43)

Yeah.

Ginny Urich (48:44)

You talked about how you read that for a year in a row.

Will Acuff (48:47)

Yeah.

Ginny Urich (48:48)

And it really reminded you about performance.

Will Acuff (48:51)

Yeah. I think, you know, part of my background is I've got, like, a master's in biblical theology, and I. You know, I could read the New Testament in Greek at one point. I can't anymore. I forgot it in, like, nine minutes. But I had come at my faith in the way that, like, a scientist studies a butterfly. Right. They. They capture it, they kill it, and they pin it down. It's very intellectual. It's very head. Knowledge was kind of my approach. And when I was tiptoeing back into my faith experience, I didn't want to go down that path again. Right. I knew that was not where life was. I knew. I, like, I had to figure out how to just watch the butterfly fly. And I was like, I don't totally know how to do that. And so the, the. I. I read the Bible looking for the places that would spark joy, right? Like, very organic, very, like, heart centered. And the Prodigal Son was the first story that sang to me, right? And so I was like, okay, I'm. I'm gonna camp out here. And so every day for a year, that was the only story I read. But I, I didn't read it from kind of this enlightenment perspective, like, let's get the words nailed down. Instead, it was much more like I stepped into, like, what does a son feel like when they go to a father and say, hey, it's not working for me at home to such a level that I want to pretend that you're dead so I can get my inheritance because I have to leave? Right? Oh, man. What does that feel like? Oh, that feels hard and desperate, you know? And I'd always been in context where I was like, no, that guy was a jerk. You know what I mean? And suddenly it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I. I'm. I'm coming at this in a different way. And fast forward you get to this moment with the Prodigal Son where he went out to. To create his own way in his dreams, right? And he's failed miserably. All the money is gone, all his good time friends are gone. He's alone. He has not performed, and he ends up feeding pigs and getting jealous of pigs. That's a tough place to be. And it says in the text, no one will give him anything. Ah, just the utter isolation of that, right? But then it says in the text that when he returned to himself and, And I love that phrase almost as in, like, when he came back to his true self, when he remembered who he was made to be, he had this moment where he was like, oh, I. I've got to be home with my dad. That's the place. But he gets caught up in the shame spiral, right? Which so many of us, we have a moment of realization and then the shame spiral jumps on our back and he's having that moment and he's walking home and he's practicing the shame speech. I don't get to be the son, right? Only I can hope for is to be this servant. And. And the dad comes rushing out, wraps him in his arms and cuts him off, doesn't let him finish the talk, right? Like, I know your. Your shame wants to have this big moment, but that's not what we're going to do instead, I, I want you to know that the band is warming up. The party is for you. Would you step in that story? Sitting in it day after day after day and trying on. What does it feel like to be the younger brother? What does it feel like to be the older brother? Like, who's pissed about the party? I was like, dad, notice all the hard work I'm doing. Like, what does it feel like? And as, as I stepped into my faith in an utterly different way, what I kept connecting with was the God of the universe is not saying, how have you performed up to this standard. The spirit of God is saying, oh man, I love you so much. Would you just come into the party? This is what you were made for. This rejoicing, this being with. And it, yeah, it changed my spiritual life, but it also changed my family life. That kind of change shifts how you do homework with your nine year old daughter. Right. I'm not like, hey, I'm feeling a lot of pressure that you do your math correctly in this right now moment because I have this bigger story about what math means for your future. Instead I'm able to connect with her heart and see when she's struggling and when she's putting on a performance story and inviting her to let it go and be with her.

Ginny Urich (53:24)

It's so many of these same questions. What would it look like if. What would it look like if I went home? What would it look like if I looked at the people around me not as a problem to solve, but as people to know and to enjoy. I interviewed this man named Ian Cron who wrote a book about Enneagram. It's a really popular one. It's called the Road back to you.

Will Acuff (53:40)

Yeah.

Ginny Urich (53:40)

And then he wrote a book recently called the Fix, which is about AA and how it can help with all sorts of addictions like the 12 steps. And he, he thought the parable should be called the parable of the older son. The older one's the one that stayed, right?

Will Acuff (53:55)

Yeah. He stayed and was like addicted to his good works. 100 right. And, and so much of my. I go back to that like the butterfly. Pin it down and study it. That was from the older brother's perspective. Right. I am going to get God. Right? Because God is a problem to solve. You have this heartbreaking moment. The older brother is so pissed he won't go into the party. And the dad in his love for his. Both of his kids. Right. He goes out and finds him outside. Right. And I think we know this moment as parents. Where we have one kid who's like, oh, I just. I'm gonna stew in my anger, right? And this loving dad goes out there and goes, wait a minute, what's going on? And he says, well, you throw this party for this worthless son while meanwhile I've slaved away for you and you've not noticed. He says, I. I've never even had a minor party, right? You're throwing the big bash, the 10 out of 10. I wanted the two out of 10 and you wouldn't give me that. And the dad says this crazy paradigm shifting thing. He goes, wait a minute, you've gotten it all wrong. All that I have is yours, right? In other words, the 10 out of 10 party is yours every single night. Come on. You've misunderstood my love, you know, and I. And I think that's where I was coming from. Wow.

Ginny Urich (55:17)

It's so good. There is no performance in the prodigal son's story. I have come to believe that this parable encompasses the great emotional truth of the gospel. We are fully known and fully loved by the God who lovingly made us. What a book. What a book. Will you put it out? You put your deep, dark secrets.

Will Acuff (55:38)

Oh, man, it's all out there. That is for sure.

Ginny Urich (55:43)

No elevator to Everest. But a book that gives you so much hope and it gives you so many, like you said, practical ideas to take your situation and to have some agency to make the changes that you can. You can't change everything. Some things won't ever be fixed, you know, or be like you talked about, like the, the path that everyone else is on it. You know, we're in our situations and it's hard and it can be very intense. But in some ways you do have some different agency and you can have imagination and spiritual imagination to start to change things in your life. And so if you feel hopeless, if you feel like you are lacking joy, this is such a wonderful, wonderful book to read. It's called no Elevator to Everest. Shift from survive to thrive through spirit led self awareness. Well, what an honor. This has been so fantastic.

Will Acuff (56:33)

Thank you so much.

Ginny Urich (56:35)

We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.

Will Acuff (56:41)

Oh, man. Yeah. So mine would be. When we were little, we moved from Durham, North Carolina up to the North Shore in Massachusetts and like introduced to winters, right? Like that kind of shift. But when I was four years old, my dad found this place out on the rocks, the big boulders overlooking the Atlantic, right? And I don't think this was like a park or an official place you could go to. But he used to let me and my brothers just run wild, where we're, like, climbing, jumping, getting scraped up and bruised, and there's some danger, right? Like, the ocean's nearby, and it's the North Atlantic. You know, it's cold, but there's also some safety because my dad's kind of watching, and I can still smell that place. Right. It was such a gift to me.

Ginny Urich (57:32)

Wow. That sensory power. And you talked about it with Raylan, too, with your son. The sensory power of the ocean and what that can do for you as a child and how it can be healing, and it can do so much for your soul. Well, thank you so, so much for writing this book, for the hope that you're giving, for the ideas that you're spreading, not just theory, but in practical, that you can look at your different things in life. It definitely affected me to say, what would it look like if. Or what would. What would it look like? What could I do? And so I will take that with me. Thank you for being here.

Will Acuff (58:04)

Yeah, thank you, Jenny. This has been, like, a tremendous blessing, and I personally have benefited from your podcast. Like, I think what you're doing is really important for parents who are just struggling with so much pressure and need to have hope that they can color outside the lines and do something different with their kids.

Ginny Urich (58:23)

Well, thank you for saying that.

Will Acuff (58:24)

Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for the important work you're doing. Like, let's get outside more. Come on, y'all.

Ginny Urich (58:36)

What if more important than being right.

Heather Thompson Day (58:38)

Is how we handle being wrong? Holding tightly to ideas that can't adapt with new information is not a virtue.

Ginny Urich (58:45)

It's a vice.

Heather Thompson Day (58:46)

I'm Heather Thompson Day, and I'm inviting you to join me over on my podcast, what if I'm Wrong? Where I'll be your guide through real life questions.

Will Acuff (58:54)

Okay, today we have a submission story, and it is wild.

Heather Thompson Day (58:59)

Subscribe to what if I'm Wrong?

Ginny Urich (59:01)

Available wherever you listen to podcasts.

Tira (59:11)

Are you looking for your new favorite podcast that's both entertaining and will challenge you in your walk with Jesus? Hey, we're Macaquenz from the for the Girl podcast. Every Tuesday, we break down everything that we wish someone had told us in our 20s, from faith and relationships to wild career transitions. We're getting real about all of our mess ups and the things God has taught us along the way. Think of us as your hilarious weekly dose of honest conversation with your Internet besties. Who've been exactly where you currently are. So come check out for the girl on Apple, Spotify or wherever you love to listen to podcasts. And make sure to click Follow on our show so that each new episode is dropped right into your personal feed.