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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 466: Why the Happiest Kids in the World Just Play | Jessica Joelle Alexander, The Danish Way of Parenting
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- [00:01]
Jenny Urch
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- [01:41]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Hi. Thank you.
- [01:43]
Jenny Urch
I read, you know, I never really considered that there were other ways of parenting. Michaeline Duclef has a book called Something that's Amazing. I really hunt. She has a book called Hunt Gather Parent. Yeah, Hunt Gather. Yeah, Hunt and Gather Parent. And I read it a few years back and it was really eye opening to me how different parenting can be from country to country, culture to culture. And it was very eye opening because sort of when you're swimming in the sea of what everyone else is doing, you don't even really consider that there are other options. And so you have this fantastic book. I love this concept of how do people parent in other places? So you have this really unique experience where you marry a Dane and not only do you marry a Dane, but you Get a lot of insight into that culture and how they raise kids there. Can you give us a little bit of the backstory?
- [02:32]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Yeah. I mean, so I'm. I'm American, and. And I started living abroad in my 20s. I guess my background is psychology, so I'm very interested in people. And. And. And I knew early on when I went to Europe and I was traveling around, wow, okay. Things are different and there's different cultural ways. And then I met my Danish husband and. And we went to Denmark. And I think one of the first things literally that struck me was how sort of well behaved and calm and serene the kids were. And I was in my 20s, and at that time, I wasn't sure I wanted to have kids. And I was sort of, like, terrified of the idea of being a mom. But then when I saw these. This sort of magical land where everybody seemed so respectful and serene, I thought, okay, if I can have a Danish child, you know, I'm. I'm down. Let's. Let's do this. I even said to my husband, I was like, I don't know what's going on here, but something is definitely special. So I began really sort of watching it and studying it and seeing that it was really. There was a really different approach to how they were with kids to anything that I had seen as an American. I also lived in different countries. For example, I lived in Italy for a long time. Also there they have a completely, totally different approach to parenting. And what I would find was that in every country, they were extremely dogmatic about it. So, you know, like, in Italy, it was like, this is what we put in our bottles. It's Parmesan cheese and a little pasta and olive oil, and this is what you do, you know? And then in England, it was like, but this is what you do. And I thought, wow, okay. So we all have a sort of way, without even realizing it, even really small things, we believe that this is the right way. But I could see the results. Like, I could see how kids were in Denmark. So I started. I started just naturally gravitating towards that. And then many years later, I read in the newspaper that Denmark had been voted as the happiest country in the world. And of course, you know, as an American, I'm like, wait, hold on. We have this in our Declaration of Independence. We are obsessed with happiness. Why don't I know more about this? I'm married to a Dane. I'm married into this culture. I've been following this way for so many years now. And then I found out it was every single year for over 40 years in a row. Over 40 years in a row. They are consecutively always in the top three. This year, they're number two. And so at that point, I just. Like, a light bulb went off in my head, and I thought it must be partly because of the parenting, because happy kids grow up to be happy adults, and it's a cycle. And, yeah, that was it. And so basically from that point on, I just conceptualized what they do here. And in fact, what's funny about it is that. So the book is in 32 countries now. It's not in Denmark, because for Danish people, they're like, why is this interesting for us? This is just what we do.
- [05:20]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, they already know it.
- [05:21]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Which. Which for me is a huge compliment. Right. This is just. Just like. Like, okay, so it really. It's totally a thing, you know, but, yeah, it's helped me enormously. I think it's helped a lot of parents. It's a very, you know, sort of. It's kind of basic. I mean, you've read it, but it's. I mean, it's. I mean, basic in the sense of, like, it's not re. It's. I remember when the. The woman who did the audio for the book, she said, God, I've done so many parenting books, but this was such common sense.
- [05:47]
Jenny Urch
But it's common sense that we're missing.
- [05:49]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Yeah, that's the funny thing. So me, as an American, I know that, you know, and I could. I could see that, like, it was so funny. It's like, I feel like we've so over complicated things in some ways that when I see this. This culture over and over voted as the happiest people in the world who are, like, protecting this really simple almost how we were maybe many years ago in some ways that I, you know, I really hope it comes back because definitely it changed the way I was parenting, and it.
- [06:18]
Jenny Urch
I'm.
- [06:19]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
You know, it made me a happier person. Parent. And I think we could. Yeah, I think we could learn a lot by maybe simplifying.
- [06:26]
Jenny Urch
So interesting when you said that all these different cultures are dogmatic about the way they do things, because I remember reading, it triggered my memory. I've only really read. Jessica, yours is probably. Maybe only the third book I've read about parenting in other cultures. So I read Hunt Gather Parent. I also read. And I wouldn't have remembered it until you said dogmatic, a book called French Kids Eat Everything. And one of the things they talked about in that book is how the French kids don't snack. It's part of the culture. There's no snacking. And what they said was, and this was another woman, I think, similar to you, who married a French man and then ended up living there for a while. And she's in the aisle at the grocery store and her kids are getting fussy so she gives them a bag of crackers or something and she says like, these complete strangers step in and like take it, where they're like, no, you can't give your child that because then they're not gonna eat their dinner. And they go into this whole diatribe about it, which you would never see that in America. No one is ever gonna step in on your parenting and tell you, don't do this, don't do that. So that, that reminded me when you talked about the dogmatic thing that, yeah, that would be an example of it. But you've got this statement about the happiness levels in the US So Danish voted happiest people in the world almost every year since 1973, but the US isn't in the top 10 and is barely in the top 20, despite having an entire field of psychology devoted to happiness and an endless sea of self help books. And so I love Jessica that what you did was you took this back to their upbringing. The Danish philosophy behind parenting and their way of raising children yields some pretty powerful results. Resilient, emotionally secure and happy kids who turn into resilient, emotionally secure, happy adults. So this book is called the Danish Way of Parenting. What the Happiest People in the World Know about Raising confident, capable Kids. You have a new book coming out. People could pre order it now, hoping you come back on to talk about it the Danish way every day. Which is going to some fantastic information about how the Danes handle screen time, which I know parents are going to be really interested in. But let's kick it off here. We are trying to get kids outside. That's it. It's basic. People are like, what is 1,000 hours outside about? I'm like, it is about getting outside for 1,000 hours every year. That's it. It's very, very basic. It is very, very life changing for a lot of the reasons you talk about in this book. But one of the big secrets of the Danish way of parenting is that they value play. Can you tell us about that?
- [08:57]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Yeah. So this was, this was one of the first things that I, as I was on my journey of sort of saying, okay, what's diff? Why, why is. What's so different here. And this was one of the things I might, my sister in law is actually a, they call it a pedagogue here. So it's like a, you know, a teacher of younger kids. I just started to see like the way they talked about play and the way the importance of play and you know, as an American or if I would, I would ask them, okay, what are your, what are your kids doing? And they would be like, what do you mean they play? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know, I get it. But what are they doing? You know, are they in gymnastics? Are they in baseball? Are they like. And I, and I would speak to danger and they just couldn't really understand what I, you know, why was I kind of. They were like, well, we hope they are getting along with other kids and we hope they're playing. So this was again something I was, it was a little strange for me. And then I as I had my own children and they were, and I was trying to uber educate them as a good amount American I was and you know, make sure that she could do her letters and numbers and everything had an educational twist to it. And my in laws are kind of like, you know, why don't you tone it down a little bit like let's get outside, let's let them play without these kinds of preconceived ideas of what I wanted them to learn from it. And then I found out that in Denmark, play is actually considered an educational theory. So Since I think 1876, it's considered how children learn best. It's part of their schooling system. They see it as the most important thing a child can engage in because they are learning so much from it. Which again as a paradigm shift for Americans, as this was for me when I started doing the research and discovering how much kids are actually learning from play, which you've talked about, I'm sure on here. And. But it's, it's kind of mind blowing. And the thing is that you can't measure a lot of what they're learning, which is what holds us back because we don't get a trophy, we don't agree, we don't get a percentage. But for Danes, they know so much that kids are learning empathy, they're learning resilience, they're learning, you know, intrinsic motivation. So, you know, what do I actually want in life? A lot of the things that they believe actually make you a more confident, secure person later in life. So that when you do learn things academically, you're actually more stable. You're actually more steady. You're less anxious. And so we talk about this, I think in America, we're talking more and more about play and the benefits to it. But when you actually see it in a culture where they've embraced it and they see it truly as the most important thing a child can engage in. And like, like every parent says, of course we have to let them play and play outside, because nature is a huge part of this learning. And you see the happiness results. That's when I said, okay, I stopped with all the over kind of programming for my daughter, and I started going outside more. And I started and I. And I let. Let her play. We got together with friends who also believed in the Danish way because I wasn't living in Denmark at that time. So people think, oh, I don't live in Denmark. This is nothing to do. You can actually do this anywhere. So we had a little group of friends who, they also believed in free play and being outside in nature and allowing our kids to just play and not feel like we were lazy, you know, and not feel like, you know, if they're not enrolled for the block building class for Harvard, I'm not. I'm being a bad parent. Ironically, you know, you will discover, I discovered it's like what kids want most is to just be with you and feel good. They want you to be happy. And so when you actually embrace free play, not only do I think it's so good for the child, but it's also good for your relationship and it's good for you as the parent because it's less stressful.
- [12:50]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, it's a. It's a win, win, win. It's such a win, win, win. And in fact, when we first started going outside and there's nobody outside, that's why I started writing about it. This has been over a decade ago. There's nobody else. You're not running into other kids. It was really just for me because, you know, when I had little kids, I just felt like I was, you know, losing my mind a little bit. I could hardly make it through the day. And we'd go outside for these long stretches and everyone was happy, including me, which matters. It matters. I think if your quality as a parent, quality of life as a parent is better, then that definitely trickles down to your family and to your children. I think maybe you answered this question, but I'm going to ask if you have anything extra to add. Obviously, the cultural pressure in America is not to give your time to free play. You wrote, we feel better as parents, by teaching something, having them involved in a sport, giving their little brain some input. As parents, we are comforted when our children are making visible signs of progress. It makes us feel like we are good parents. So this is a pretty big shift for your emotions. Like you talk about how parents feel this nagging sense of guilt if we're allowing for all of this free play. And instead of putting kids in this, that and the other thing. And you talked about having a small group of friends, that's what we did. Just a couple families, like four families. You're kind of insulated from that a little bit because everybody is going the same direction. But do you have any other advice for parents who are struggling with those strong emotions of guilt, of fear to do it differently?
- [14:22]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Yeah. So I just came back from the U.S. i was just visiting my family. It's always such an eye opening experience because I realize how hard it is to be in the US and not get caught up in all of this because it is what so many people are talking about. And it is hard to go against the grain in a way and not be able to contribute. Oh well, my son is also doing this and my daughter. There's always this kind of sensation that you're not doing enough. If your kids are just playing or you believe in this, this idea that they need this free time in nature, they need this, they need this time to process their days and they don't need every minute filled with activities. And one of the things I can say that will, I hope, help also put parents minds at ease about this way or implementing this more is how much our world is actually changing in terms of, of the future. You know, some of the things we know that play is teaching is creativity, critical thinking skills, again, internal locus of control, which basically that your sense of what you want is coming from within. You feel like you can control your world. Whereas when you have everything, when you have so many adult led activities, people tend to feel like, you know, they don't have control over their world, that it's coming from the outside. And with everything changing now with AI and with all the things that we just know are coming the future of education, the future of what is going to help our kids be successful. To be honest, are so much more now coming from play than they will come from any kind of education. I mean our education system is going to be outdated. I mean it already is in my opinion, but it's going to be outdated in no time. I think what we're going to find is all these educated choices we're making for our kids. I think the most educated choice in the future will actually be free play, you know, for all the competitive parents out there, the ones that want the best for their. Because we all just want our kids to have the best opportunities. You know, it's coming from a good place. Like, I understand it, I feel it so strongly whenever I'm in the US But I also so believe that actually, you know, to navigate the future opportunities, it's going to be far easier for our kids if they have more of a sense of self. They're able to collaborate, think critically, be creative. Because there's just so. It's so different, the opportunities.
- [16:43]
Jenny Urch
So Americans can still tap into that competitive nature.
- [16:47]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Well, this comes back to, you know, like, what I say in the book is, I'm not saying, oh, this is the way. I'm just saying there's a lot of different ways we as America. I have things I like about my American way, and I have things that I'm never going to give up. And I. I'm proud of a lot of those things that I bring to Denmark, that I bring to other countries. But I think if you're open to sort of realize that we are affected by our culture, it's like I always say, it's like a pair of glasses, right? So I have. These are my glasses. So when I have them on, I can see better, right? When I take them off, you know, I see a little bit. I could. But if you try on a Danish pair, you may see things differently. If there's anything that resonates from that culture, from the French culture that you think can make your life better, happier, your kids better adjusted, then it's worth it, right? And there's some things that I think it's very hard to change. Like, I mean, I am competitive by nature because of where I grew up, you know, So I don't think you have to completely, like, make that go away. However, you know, being aware and being aware of how this might affect our kids is always. I think it's always good to be self aware.
- [17:57]
Jenny Urch
You can, you can shift that a little bit. Even if it's just internal, you know, that you're like, well, I'm going to give my kid a competitive edge because they're going to be more creative and innovative and flexible and resilient and all of the. They're going to have superior social skills. All of these things that play provides for kids. Let's talk about a couple of them because obviously anxiety is on the rise. It's a big thing people are talking about all the time. Anxiety. We're talking a lot about phones and things like that. But there is an answer here or a piece of the puzzle that appears to be missing, which you've already been alluding to, which is free play. Free play is helping our kids be ready for the future. Obviously it's helping us in the present. Win, win, win. Kids are happier, Parents are happier. Vacation season is nearly upon us. We are actually spending a week at the ocean in South Carolina soon and I can't wait. This year I'm treating myself to the luxe upgrades with Quince's high quality Travel Essentials at fair prices. There are super cute lightweight European linen styles from $30, washable silk tops and comfy lounge sets. And they even have premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. The best part? All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. I can't wait to slip on their 100% organic cotton crew sweater and slide into their Italian leather platform sandals for those cool evening walks on the beach. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quint. Go to quint.com outside for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside.
- [20:01]
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- [21:00]
Jenny Urch
But there are some really significant things happening here. Free play teaches kids to be less anxious. Free play teaches children resilience. Free play is crucial for learning how to cope with stress and social situations that kids engage in. In free play require children to deal with their fear and their anger. These things seem to be like the utmost of importance, especially right now.
- [21:22]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Oh, 100%. I mean, and again, you know, how are they doing this? Well, like, we've, we've studied free play in animals to try to understand why they're playing. Because all animals play and what they think they're doing is, is testing their fear response. So they're seeing, you know, so that kids are doing the same. They're jumping on stones, swinging from branches. That's also why nature is so fantastic for them, because it's such a natural playground where they're able to see how much fear can I, how much, how far can I step on this log? And of course they're going to hurt themselves sometimes. We can't always protect them. And what the Danes say is that the more that you say, be careful, look out, it's more about your experience than it is about the child. So you're making them more worried about you than focusing on their experience. So their. So the. So this is also what I write in the next book. It's a little bit, you know, more how to practically, you know, approach it. So it's more about how to reframe their experience and maybe help them rather than always spout fear or worry, which of course I know, I'm a parent, I understand. But there it is, a big difference. And when you also realize that these stress coping mechanisms that they're learning is actually coming from. It's also coming from the danger that they're managing because the child, only the child knows how much they can handle in risky play. You don't know that they know it. And they're, and they're pushing their self and they can see that in the brain. This is actually helping them develop coping mechanisms. Yeah, it's really cool.
- [22:53]
Jenny Urch
Angela Hanscom, who wrote a book called Balanced and Barefoot, says kids don't want to get hurt. They're not flailing themselves in a way that is irresponsible. Like you said, they're taking calculated steps, calculated risks, and they may still get hurt to a degree. But you wrote that the parents in Denmark try not to intervene unless it's Absolutely necessary. And so they do intervene. Sometimes they do.
- [23:15]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
But can I just tell you, Sometimes in Denmark, I'm like, oh, my. Like, even for me, I write about this, but even sometimes for me, I'm like, oh, my God, help that toddler. I mean, I just had an experience the other day, actually. I'll give you two examples.
- [23:29]
Jenny Urch
Yeah.
- [23:29]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
I was in a doctor's office, and this toddler was, like, getting ready to crawl up on this table. I mean, it was okay. Cause it was. It was plastic. It was no big deal. But. But, you know, for me, I would have said, stop, get down or help. But the dad was just kind of like, scaffolding little. A little bit. Just. And calmly, and just, like, with the calmest. No stress, no breakdown. No. He just got up, checked it out, slowly, got. I was okay. And I remember when my son was little, and he would just start running down a hill. And this happened many times. And I would. I just. You know, I wanted to say, stop. Slow down. And my husband would say, little boys are gonna run. Like, he would be like, stop. Like, little boys are gonna run. That's what they're doing. And I mean, poof. Okay. I take a breath. I was like, all right. He's right. He's right. And, you know, and that. I don't know why it's changed so much. Because we're more involved or because we feel like we're better parents. I mean, Italy had, like, the exact opposite. Parents were so overprotective. Like, all you heard all the time was like, no, don't do that. Don't do that. So it was. It's different from place to place. But I. It is very powerful to let them handle their own limits.
- [24:44]
Jenny Urch
Yeah.
- [24:45]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Wow.
- [24:46]
Jenny Urch
Don't step in unless it's absolutely necessary. And that's a skill that you learn over time, I think, especially if you're listening and your kids are little, this is the time to start to learn how to let go. Because they're closer to the ground, there's less things that they can get up on. As they get older, it definitely gets a little more precarious. And so I just. You know, I highly recommend. Because then you grow as a parent while they grow as a child. I had this experience where we were. We live in Michigan. We were up north, like, Traverse City area. It's beautiful. It's like the summer, all that. And we were at this little spot where there was grass, and then there was maybe, like, a foot and a half drop down into water. And so our kids were Just like running the grass, you know, and the water was like, deep enough, so it was like. But not too deep. So they would like leap. And they were little, maybe five and under. They'd run the grass, leap into the water and land in the water. And I mean, they just thought it was the most fun thing. And they did it over and over and over again. And this little boy came over to play similar age to our. And his mom went and let him. And I just remember thinking, like, why? Why? You know, and, you know, are you trying. I'm like, trying not to judge this other mom. But I just thought that nothing can happen, you know, you're. You're jumping this foot and a half. It's into water. It's not over their head. And our kids just, you know, I mean, they probably got several hours of entertainment out of that one spot and had so much joy doing it. So it's just really an interesting. Is this interesting cultural pressure? Like, there's no one. That was like an internal thing that. That mom felt like her kid wasn' a lot. And he just kind of. They were there for like, a bit. So he just kind of glumly sat aside, was like, watching our kids do.
- [26:21]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
It, you know, and kids innately want to play. I mean, kids in war zones play. Kids, kids, they are born to play. It's such. That's where this. This idea of. Again, like in Denmark, it's. It's an educational theory because they believe it's such a. It's. It's part of the child. So neglecting. That is neglecting what is such a natural part of the child. And think about the difference with that little girl. And again, yeah. Not to judge because, I mean, I have a friend who's really uber protective of her daughter. She's an only child. She's got her reasons. But think about the difference between the kids that are allowed to roll around, play in that, test themselves, get creative, feel the sensations and be free. And the ones that can see that and have to be held back and are living their mother's fear.
- [27:05]
Jenny Urch
It felt just like that, right? Yeah. That's why your book is so important, because you can't. Like, in the moment, there was no way for me to really say to her, this is fine. It would just be too odd. And so I just felt, you know, I just felt. I guess I felt bad for both of them, really, because it was like something that was basic, like you talk about, that was sort of taken away from both of them. She lost the joy of watching her kid have all of this joy and anyway, so it's just interesting that one really stuck out to me when our kids were younger. Let's talk about school. So school is approached differently, especially for young kids. Like you talked about how for a lot of years Danish kids weren't even allowed to start school before they were seven, which. Such a big deal. It's such a big deal. We didn't do any formal school for our kids until they were seven. And this, this is Finland, this is Waldorf. I mean, there's a lot of philosophies here about that. And then what happens is they just learn the stuff. Like our daughter, she did the, you know, she still did the kindergarten math book, but she finished it in like two days. The whole thing, you know, when she was seven, because she was ready and she already kind of knew all this stuff because she's learned it through play. So this was. For a while. They're not even allowing kids to do formal education until 7. But even now for kids 10 and under, the school day ends at 2 and then they can go to play school if they want to.
- [28:22]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Yeah. And most of them do. So they have something called Schoole frietis Ordning, which is one more time, One more time.
- [28:28]
Jenny Urch
Because I had it written down.
- [28:29]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Schoole friedtis ordning.
- [28:31]
Jenny Urch
Nope, I wouldn't have gotten it. That's amazing.
- [28:34]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Don't worry. Danish. That's impossible.
- [28:36]
Jenny Urch
Free time school. It's translated as free time school.
- [28:39]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Yeah, it's basically free time school. You know, sometimes I say, I think it's funny because people haven't discovered this before the Danish way. And I. I sometimes think it's because one, they're not a commercial society and two, because who can understand this language? It's very special. I like unlocked so many secrets when I learned the language. Yeah. So it's called. It's basically free time school. And what it is, is, as I said, because they believe that it's. So it's the. It is the most important thing for a child and the whole society agrees. So after 2 o'clock they go to this place. Sometimes it's attached to the main school, sometimes it's a little bit away, but usually they're pretty close. And it's basically just this huge place where they have a choice of all these different things. They can play, they can go. There's some rooms where there is a teacher that maybe is like organizing bead making. So they can go join that if they want to, or they can go out and build A bonfire, you know. Yeah, that's a big thing, bonfire. Oh, they learn how to make fires at like kindergarten. It's a thing, you know, widdle with knives, tons of outdoor play, mud play, sand pits. They love sand. You know, they're big into their sand and dirt play. But yeah, it's, it's basically where the child can choose and learn how to be with others. Because I think that's something else they find very important is one of the big benefits of play. And you probably saw this with your group of friends. We saw it with ours as well. The other thing they're learning is how to negotiate. You know, kids want to play, it's innate, so they don't want to quit the game. So you might get a bossy kid, you might get a, you know, all kinds of situations, but they will work it out because they want to play. And this is also why they try not to intervene unless it's absolutely necessary because of what the children are learning. So that's not to say like we have values obviously as parents and we have. That's not like a free for all that there's no sort of, you know, we want kids to be nice to each other. We want them to learn how to. However, they're very, very capable of working these things out in play. So that's another place they kind of learn these things is in this, in this free play area. There's a funny story I want to tell you about. So forest kindergartens are a big deal here and there's tons of them in Denmark and very popular. And I remember there was, there was a story of a journalist, I think she was Australian journalist, who was just so shocked by what the kids were doing in the forest kindergarten. You know, they were playing near fjords, whittling with knives, climbing these tall trees. And she was just. This journalist was shocked. And she asked the teacher, has there ever been any accident? And the teacher said, you know, in 17 years we've never really had a big problem. Except one time when a parent drove over a kid's foot.
- [31:26]
Jenny Urch
Oh no.
- [31:27]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
But just to say like, yeah, yeah.
- [31:30]
Jenny Urch
You know, yeah, yeah, that would be a big problem.
- [31:35]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
But that was caused by a parent. It was not falling out of a tree. It was not.
- [31:39]
Jenny Urch
Which is a huge statement because here you've got. I mean, how many kids have come through a program like that in 17 years? And how many hours of play does that represent? I mean, thousands upon thousands of hours of play where kids get to self direct and in the long term it makes them Safer because they're learning what their bodies can and cannot do. So what an important book. It's called the Danish Way of Parenting. You also talk about pushing kids to read. But you know, the, the interesting thing about the school day is, and I truth be told, I don't totally know what the schools are hours are and I think they vary from state to state or I'm sure county to county. But when we were looking at kindergarten for our oldest, the bus came at 8:30, between 8 and 8:30 and then didn't come back till 4:30. So this is like a full work day. And currently, you know, most of these districts are giving one 20 minute recess and lunch, you know, something like that. So it's very small, overarching, it's not everywhere, but very small portions of the day are going to play. And so if the day ended at 2 and the kids until they're 10, if the day ended at 2 and then they could go, it's basically like recess for the rest of the day. I just think that would be so much healthier or the child. And I, I really love that.
- [32:52]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
So can I have a question? Because now just been in the U.S. this is something I was thinking about being there because of course I always think about these differences whenever I'm, whenever I'm there. And I sometimes wonder if I almost feel like. I don't know whether it's out of fear or I'm not sure what it's coming out of, but I feel like there's like more and more of a need to control in the US like when I'm, I feel like, so, so that's, let's, you know, we have to have every single minute accounted for, observed, watched over. And even though this is actually more detrimental for children because they, they so need this free time. They truly need the space, they need the unstructured free play. They need time. But I'm like, wow, it's, I feel like it's getting harder and harder to do that because people are getting, it's like getting more and more and more controlled.
- [33:46]
Jenny Urch
It is, it is very controlled because I went and spoke and I've talked about this several times on the podcast, but I went and spoke at a school board meeting at the school district that I grew up in. And it's, it's pretty close to where I live now, but they were talking about this 20 minute recess and this is for four year olds who you know, are in what they call pre K. I think it's called different Beginner Garden it's called different things, different places. But four year olds are coming in and they get lunch. Now, lunch is 45 minutes, but that includes walking to get your lunch and sitting down and standing in the line and all of those types of things. So I don't really know how much play they're getting in 45 minutes. When it's combined with lunch, nothing in the morning, and then the afternoon is 20 minutes. So I went and I got asked to speak at the school board meeting. You know, you only get three minutes. But I brought this massive stack of books. It was like, as tall as me. I carry this big stack of books up there. And I was like, the research says this is the wrong thing to do. And they went through, like you're saying, Jessica, they went minute by minute. It was like, there's 15 minutes for social emotional learning, and then there's 12 minutes for math manipulatives, and then there's. And it was very much like that. And I remember because I used to teach. As I was leaving. This was around 2010, as I was leaving the profession, it was really starting to become this standardized. It's very much like a machine. It used to be that teachers had autonomy and they kind of did their thing and hope to get their kid from point A to. Kids from point A to point B at the end of the year in a variety of methods. But what was happening was, Jessica, that it was like, okay, the third graders are all going to take the same science assessment on the same day, and it's going to be the exact same assessment from building to building to building across the whole district, and they're going to take the same math assessment. It was like they were trying to standardize and make every single classroom and every single teacher almost like this robotic thing. And I don't know what that comes from. I don't know if it comes from. You know, it seemed to come from like, well, then we get higher rankings and then we know what. Every single teacher there was like these administrators that were up above it that would be like, you know, these. Then you can get more people into your community. I don't know. But it was wild.
- [35:55]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Yeah. And it's really so bad for the child.
- [35:59]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. And for the teachers. I think these teachers are really good teachers. Like, they're good teachers and they, like, know what they're doing. And then all of a sudden they have. It's like the control is like dripping down, you know, from the top. Someone's controlling the teacher. So then the teachers have to control the kids and nobody wins in that situation.
- [36:16]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Oh, I just, it just ramps up anxiety across the board.
- [36:20]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, right.
- [36:20]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
I mean it ramps up, is guided for teachers ramps up. So it's just funny when you, when you realize it, I mean you, you've doing this and it's great to get this word out because hopefully there will be a wave where people will realize that like, like we can under complicate this and make it so much better. Reduce anxiety, improve well being, improve education scores in the long run. Yeah.
- [36:41]
Jenny Urch
It's all a win. It's all a win.
- [36:44]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
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Jenny Urch
You wrote when we're pushing kids with these academics, you wrote about David Elkind. I love his stuff. You say, you know, if we're pushing kids to read early and you know, Waldorf is like they are not ready until their adult teeth come in and their internal organs are formed. We're talking in some kids are going to read really early, but you know, the majority of kids are going to be 7, they're going to be 8, some of them are going to be 10, they're going to be 12. That's like their natural age to learn to read and it doesn't matter. And David Alkine says, yeah, you've got some kids, maybe that are going to read early because you push them. Well, within a few years, everyone's going to be at the same spot. And the ones who are pushed exhibit higher levels of anxiety and lower self esteem in the long run. So we're doing this at what cost? At what cost? And it doesn't matter. You know, if it's like, you've got older kids. I've got older kids. I say all the time, like, my son does an internship. He's there right now this morning, and he does video work. And I was like, no one asked him what age he learned to read when he went to apply for the internship. It doesn't matter. So, you know you wrote Just Drop the Guilt. It's a very, very fantastic book, especially if you're dealing with guilt and you want to learn more about this. You talk about kids outside as much as possible to play in nature, the woods, the park, the beach, wherever. Mix the kids of different age, let them be free and forget the guilt. They don't need an adult LED activity or specific toys. The more you let them be in control of their own play, using their imagination and doing it themselves, the better they will get at it. The skills they are learning are invaluable. So all of this encouragement in here, you even talk about playing alone, the value of that. So if someone's listening, they're like, I've got an only child. You know, they're alone a fair amount of the time. You're like, that's fine that, you know, you can get together with friends sometimes. But also they're developing their inner fantasy world. Younger and younger children are feeling a lack of control over their lives. They are feeling this sense of helplessness earlier and earlier. So fantastic things in the Danish way of parenting, all about play, which is so great for all of us to be reminded of. I think we need these consistent reminders, Jessica.
- [40:14]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Oh, for sure. And, and it's, and it's hard. That's what I mean. Like I, I said, I, I totally understand how it's hard for parents. If my son was a little bit later to read and he was in an American school, and it was really hard for me to embrace it like my daughter. It was, it's one thing to say it when you have a child that's like super early, but then when I'm actually living the experience of having, having one, that's, that's learning later but fortunately, I do believe in the research. It does make total sense, I think, when also just what we talked about with this over massively over scheduling of little kids and teachers, and if you just think about that for a second, what kind of pressure that puts on U.S. adults, which is obviously transferring over to little children. I sometimes feel like it's like the stance we have to make is to realize how precious childhood is, how short it is, how short. It's so short, ultimately in the scope of things. And yet I find that we tend to want to like, almost adultify our kids early because somehow this is showing to other parents that we're doing a good job if our kids are really smart, really early, whatever that means. Because in the scope of things, what is smart really mean? Right. There's a million ways to be smart. But in America, we have a very narrow idea of what being smart is. And again, just think about how the future is changing. If. I'm sorry, I mean, if. If you look at all these tech people and all these, like, billionaires and whatever, like, guess what they're doing with their kids. They're giving them free play. Just check what they're doing. Because the future is not going to be all this, like, regimented how we learned. Being really book smart is going to be much more important if you are creative, if you can be. Yeah. A critical thinker. I said this thing about internal locus of control. And why is that going to be important? Because the future is changing so much that the more that you believe that you first of all know what you want, know what you like, know what you enjoy and feel, that you can go after it because your whole world is not programmed, you know, from the time you're three, so you feel like you have no agency, right? Then you're not able to take advantage. You're not able to sort of, you know, take advantage of the world and, and how it's changing and go after what you want, and that's what genuinely makes you happy.
- [42:27]
Jenny Urch
And that's what all of these books are saying. So that's why I think we need these plugs of, like, a little bit. I read a lot because there's a lot of pressure. And so I just. I constantly need a little drip of that to remind me, like, no, like, you don't have to sign up for these things. People are saying things like. And these are like, all the current books, what you're saying. The competency of the future is relational. This man named Jerry Kaplan, who works with all this AI stuff, he Says the jobs are the future are human skill jobs because everyone's sick of the robots and they, they want someone that they can engage in. So you start to read these things and you're. And you're like, look, well, what makes sense? How do you learn your social skills when you're sitting at a desk doing worksheet? No, no. It's only when you're free playing and you're able to decide. It's not even when you're playing like kickball and in gym class where that's all prescribed for you. It's during these down periods where adults aren't telling you what to do. So, so much fabulous information in this book about play you wrote. Stop worrying about what others think of you. Look silly. Let the kids guide lots of just practical things. And I know your new book has a lot of practical things as well. Here's something interesting that I didn't know and would have never considered that I learned in the Danish way of parenting. You wrote Danish films often have dreary, sad or tragic endings. Oh, yeah, I had no idea. Why is that? And what does it do for the kids and for the adults?
- [43:49]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Also the children's books and the children's stories like, wow, I got some shocks when I got some books from my in laws. I was like, okay, we're going to read about that at 5. But the belief is in Denmark, if it's part of life, it should be part of education. And children have a right to ask any question and we should answer them in an age appropriate way because life isn't a fairy tale. And so if you pretend that it always has a happy ending, you're setting your kids up for unhappiness.
- [44:16]
Jenny Urch
Wow.
- [44:17]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Yeah. Oh, it's very profound. It's very profound. I'm telling you. I mean, I, I just moved back last year and I forgot how profound it is. So they really look, almost look for opportunities to not only teach their kids about the happy stuff, but all the other things that life encompasses. I wrote an article some time back about. I remember watching a Danish TV show with my daughter. She was seven. It was called like Wild Friends. And it's these two kids, nature kids, they go out and they like help animals and bring them back to a vet. And you know, so they go out and they find this bird and it's like they, they get called, you know, and they're like, oh, come help. The bird has a, you know, has a wound. And so they're like, come to the rescue. And then they bring it to the. And they're like, oh, no, it died. You know, it's got a too bad of a head wound. Let's make. Let's give it a funeral. But. But, you know, then they talked about, well, yeah, you know, like I did. It was a shock because it's like, this is for like 6, 7 year olds. This wasn't like, you know, Peppa Pig or whatever. This was kind of heavy. But, you know, head wounds can be very serious. And, you know, things die and, and their beliefs, like, we don't always have the answer to these. And that's okay. What's important is that we read stories about all different things that can happen in life. Emotions, they see a little bit more like colors on the color wheel. So, you know, if life was all yellow, it would be extremely boring. Colors make our life rich. So if you see sadness, frustration, anger, grief, all of these things that make up our. Make our world rich, then you actually help prepare your kids to be more resilient by being open to talking about it. And, you know, this example I give in the book is the Little Mermaid.
- [46:00]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, I had no idea. Yeah.
- [46:03]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Oh, she gets the prince. She's so happy. It's all la, la, la, la. That's what Disney wrote. Yeah, but. But it's actually a Danish fairy tale. Hans Christian Andersen, the most famous, probably most famous, ironically, fairy tale writer. And in the actual version, the mermaid doesn't get the prince. She dies of sadness and turns into seafoam. And I read both the versions.
- [46:27]
Jenny Urch
That is such a different version than Prince Eric, she turns into sea foam. But maybe like you said, that was the point. The point was to expose kids in these small doses to the hardships of life because life has a lot of hardships. So what an interesting thing to read about. There's so many cool things that came from Denmark. You've got more to say. Tell me.
- [46:51]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
No, so I just wanted to finish with that. So what was interesting is I read both versions with my daughter. The. The Disney version and the Danish version. And in the sad version, like, it was so much more connecting. She asked so many more questions. I started based on the Danish way. I started checking out books from the library that were more like. That were more talking about set like a dog dies or, you know, or God. They have one Danish book called Cry Heart Never Break. It's translated into English. It's very like. It's. It's quite.
- [47:18]
Jenny Urch
It's.
- [47:19]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
It's a sort of interesting take on death. It's for kids. What was so fascinating about it. And I say this for parents who may be afraid to talk about different subjects. What's fascinating about it is that it's very meaningful for the adult. So I kind of got teared up a couple of times talking to my kids. Like, you know, again, you don't have the answers. But just broaching some of these subjects, it creates a relationship, it creates an openness, it creates a sense of reality that is more real then, oh, and the princess gets the prince. And years later, when my husband's father died, we had already talked about this stuff. It was so helpful to deal with a very emotional moment. And this is just like death, but there's a lot of different emotions that you can talk about. And bringing it back to 1000 hours outside. Danes use nature as a huge place to educate on these things because nature is the ultimate reality. You find dead bugs, you find, you know, you see the life cycle, you see metamorphosis. And so they take these as, as opportunities. Rather than going ew, gross, they let children ask the questions.
- [48:30]
Jenny Urch
What a difference. Wow, is that interesting. So many cool things coming from Denmark. And I had no idea about the different endings to the Little Mermaid. And you can see was really interesting. What you said is it led to connection and conversation. A movie that has a feel good ending does not. My favorite movie is this movie called Gone Baby Gone. And if anyone's seen it, it ends with this very like existential question about if the main character did the right thing or did not do the right thing. And I mean it's a conversation piece. It doesn't wrap it up like a bow and with a bow at the end and it leaves it hanging. And you're, I mean it is the most powerful movie I've watched. I watched it years ago. And people ask, what's your favorite movie? It's that because it left hanging this like major question of what would you have done and what is the right thing to do in a certain situation. So I never really considered that at all. So you've got these fairy tales that don't have fairy tale endings. These are coming from Denmark. Lego came from Denmark created by a Danish carpenter in his wood shop in 1932. Means Playwell didn't know that Kompan, which are those really cool playgrounds, they just started popping up like in the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years where it's like the, they're open ended, These open ended playgrounds, those are coming from Denmark. They've become the number one playground supplier in the world. So lots of things to learn from what the Danes are doing. I want to hit one last topic before we run out of time. You always hear about hygge, which is spelled H, Y, G, G, E, and I hope I pronounced it right. You hear about that and there's different books that are written about that, but I don't think I really understood it until I. Your book, the Danish Way of Parenting. It means coziness together. And in America, we've got a lot of kids that are in their rooms or on their screens. But this is about. This is a way of life. It's creating a strong social network, which is one of the most important factors in our overall happiness. Coziness helps us give this powerful gift to our children. And I have not really prioritized coziness. So can you talk about that and what we can do and why it matters?
- [50:33]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
So huga is probably one of the most Danish words that there is. You cannot have a conversation with a Dane without hearing it in a sentence. I mean, it's got. It's like a verb, it's an adverb, it's a noun. And it's just such a huge part of who they are. It's like their DNA, and it doesn't exist in any other culture. Exactly, this word hygge. And, you know, obviously I was. Because of that and because I hear it so much, I was always like, what is this Hygge? Danes do it naturally because they grew up with it. So it's, you know, as anything you grew up with, it becomes part of your, you know, cultural fabric. And basically what it is is this idea that when you're together with family and friends, you carve out time where it's about we and not me. What do I mean? I mean, where you kind of put aside for a period of time, negativity, complaining about work, gossiping, bragging, anything that's subtly divisive, you put aside, and you sort of make these moments about the now being present, being connected. And again, maybe it sounds really easy, but I can tell you, as an American, it's not. Because we're so culturally, many families, like, we have these habits of when we get together, we're complaining about somebody else, or we're complaining about work, or somebody's talking about how awesome their job is, which subtly puts someone else on the. You know, and so what do they do instead? So things that are more connecting. So, for example, telling uplifting stories about your past. So every family has good memories. Most families have Some good memories from their past. It is amazing when you start talking about a positive memory and everybody chimes in how connecting it is, playing games together. This is something you connect in the moment. You know, making sure everybody helps in the kitchen, making sure it's a team effort. So I always say it's not. It's not like you'd have to give up me time, which is very American. I want me time, me, me, me, me, me. Right. For a period of time. It's about we time. And you shut off the me. And it is so recharging when you have these positive, connected moments with your family. You have no idea. It has changed my American family so tremendously. You know, they finally embraced it. The book had to become a bestseller before they finally embraced it. But, you know, there's something called the Hyga Oath for us non Danes. It kind of like outlined some of the things to do because it's a team effort. It takes everybody wanting it for it to happen. Yeah, I just spent time with my family in the US and like, because we kind of know, okay, this dinner is going to be about Hygge. So every other time, we can complain, every other time, we can gossip or be negative. It's not that it's like, you can never do that. It's just that for this dinner with my family, we are going to talk about the good times, enjoy the food. And it is so nice. And, and the, the way that I define it, this is kind of my American motto. But I, but, you know, people will understand when I say it. We talk so much about mindfulness and how being present in the moment, blocking everything else out, is so tied to, well, being right. Everybody's meditating. It's like really the hot topic. I think that the Danes like many things. I think they have evolved mindfulness. And it's Hygge is not mindfulness, it's wefulness.
- [53:59]
Jenny Urch
I love the sentence where you put, when you substitute we for I, illness becomes wellness. Oh. Oh, that's good. You did such an incredible job of narrowing it down, of figuring it out of what are the differences. Like when you said, don't say things that are subtly divisive. Like you were able to go in and just extract what the differences are. I love this Hygge Oath. This is on page 141. We try and turn off the phones and the iPads. We try and tell and retell the funny, lovely and uplifting stories. We play games that everyone can participate in. We light candles if we're inside, we leave the drama at the door. So what a wonderful thing to read. You talk about how there's an affection for singing. Singing together makes people happier, but also makes them feel like they're part of a group. Studies have found that groups of singers have actually been able to synchronize their heartbeats well singing. So they're going to be there's a lot of singing. You wrote with your American family. The goal is to be around each other for a limited amount of time. But with this hooga, it's about having a warm and lovely experience together. That is the ultimate end goal. And it's an example that they're passing on to their kids. One last thing is you talked about new moms that the midwives will give the new moms the names and contact details of all the other moms in the neighborhood who've just had babies and if it's their first or their second or their third. So the women can kind of be matched up and they can find friendships, which is such an important There is so much to learn in this book. And like you said, childhood is short. I remember when I read in Waldorf they talk about the wonder years that are birthed to eight and you got little kids and you think eight seems really far away. And then all of a sudden you're out of it and kids really change. Then they kind of start to pull away from that imaginative play. I was with a four year old yesterday, my friend's four year old. And I mean everything is a spider man. And you know, and you it ends. It ends. And it doesn't end when they're 18. It ends when they're 8 or 9 or 10. I mean, it's, it starts to at least morph. So it really is, like you said, such a short window of time. This book has over 3,000Amazon reviews. The Danish Way of what the Happiest People in the World Know About Raising Confident, Capable Kids. I recommend it highly. The new book is coming out on April 21st. You can order it now. It is called the Danish Way Every Day. This one includes raising digital citizens and how we're dealing with screen time. How the Danes are dealing with screen time based off of a very different philosophy of childhood. I cannot wait to read it and hopefully you'll be back. Jessica. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [56:36]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
My dad was a fisherman, so I have such fond memories of, of being on the boat and being out in the ocean and I think that that that freedom and and wide open space was very molding for creative mind.
- [56:54]
Jenny Urch
Danish way of parenting translated into 32 languages out in 32 different countries. What an impact you're having around the world on parenting. And it's a multi generational impact because these kids are going to impact their kids. It's just going to trickle on down. Thank you so so much for being here.
- [57:12]
Jessica Joelle Alexander
Thanks so much for having me, Jenny. So nice.
- [57:19]
Jenny Urch
Are you looking for your new favorite podcast that's both entertaining and will challenge you in your walk with Jesus? Hey, we're Mackie Kenz from the for the Girl podcast. Every Tuesday we break down everything that we wish someone had told us us in our 20s. From faith and relationships to wild career transition. We're getting real about all of our mess ups and the things God has taught us along the way. Think of us as your hilarious weekly dose of honest conversation with your Internet besties who've been exactly where you currently are. So come check out for the Girl on Apple, Spotify or wherever you love to listen to podcasts. And make sure to click Follow on our show so that each new episode is dropped right into your personal feed. Hi dear one, I'm Dr. Edie Wadsworth, your new favorite Christian life coach and.
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Jessica Joelle Alexander
I want to invite you to the House of Joy podcast.
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Jenny Urch
If you're a woman over 40 or.
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Jessica Joelle Alexander
The daughter of one who wants to.
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Jenny Urch
Build a positive mindset, healthier habits and thriving relationships, this is the show for you. We talk about personal growth, family, faith, resilience, and creating a life you're obsessed with. So if you're tired of feeling stuck and ready to step into more joy.
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Jessica Joelle Alexander
And purpose, come join us.
- [58:31]
Jenny Urch
Listen now wherever you get your podcast.