1KHO 467: Flavor Is the Original Craving | Mark Schatzker, The Dorito Effect

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Episode 1KHO 467: Flavor Is the Original Craving | Mark Schatzker, The Dorito Effect
Release Date: April 22, 2025
Host: Jenny Urich
Guest: Mark Schatzker, Author of The Dorito Effect

---

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, host Jenny Urich sits down with Mark Schatzker, the author of The Dorito Effect: The Surprising New Truth About Food and Flavor. Released in 2015, Schatzker’s book delves deep into the transformation of our food landscape, particularly focusing on how flavor technology has altered the way we eat and perceive food. Schatzker’s insights are particularly resonant for parents and health enthusiasts striving to navigate the modern food environment.

The Decline of Natural Flavor and Its Impacts

Timestamp: [01:41]

Jenny Urich:
"I had no idea all these products still contained natural flavors. Your book highlights that not only has our food become blander, but flavor technology has surged, negatively impacting our eating habits and cravings."

Mark Schatzker:
"You’ve accurately captured the essence. The book emphasizes that while our food has become less flavorful due to the Green Revolution, which prioritized quantity over quality, flavor technology has stepped in to mask this blandness. This combination is detrimental to our health and our relationship with food."

Key Points:

• Green Revolution's Role:
  The Green Revolution enabled the production of more food on less land, addressing hunger but at the cost of nutritional and flavor quality. Crops like strawberries and tomatoes have become less dense in vitamins and minerals due to increased yield demands, leading to the "dilution effect."

• Blandness vs. Flavor Technology:
  As natural flavors diminished, the food industry introduced artificial flavorings to compensate. This shift has led to foods that are not only nutritionally lacking but also manipulated to trigger excessive cravings.

• Impact on Natural Foods vs. Processed Foods:
  Naturally flavorful foods like fruits and vegetables contain secondary plant compounds that naturally regulate consumption. In contrast, processed foods with added flavors disrupt this balance, leading to overconsumption and health issues.

Notable Quote:
"Eating should be a joyful occasion, not a superficial, abstract discussion about chemicals and nutrients." – Mark Schatzker [02:40]

The Origin and Power of Artificial Flavors

Timestamp: [14:08]

Jenny Urich:
"Your discussion about the industrialization of flavor, like Doritos evolving from simple corn chips to complex flavor profiles, was eye-opening. Why does fast food taste the same everywhere?"

Mark Schatzker:
"Industrialized food treats flavor as a commodity. Using tools like the gas chromatograph, flavor compounds are isolated and replicated, ensuring uniform taste across locations. This consistency is economically driven but at the expense of genuine, varied flavor experiences."

Key Points:

• Doritos Case Study:
  Arch West’s creation of Doritos involved adding flavor compounds to standardize taste, transforming unappealing chips into addictive snacks. This practice exemplifies how artificial flavors enhance product appeal without improving nutritional value.

• Economic Drivers:
  The use of artificial flavors is cost-effective, often costing less than five cents to flavor large batches of products. This affordability encourages widespread use, perpetuating the cycle of processed, flavor-enhanced foods.

• Uniformity in Fast Food:
  Chains like McDonald’s utilize standardized flavor formulations to maintain consistency across locations, sacrificing unique taste experiences for brand uniformity.

Notable Quote:
"Flavor is the original language for all animals, including humans. When used artificially, it tricks our brains into consuming more than we need." – Mark Schatzker [14:08]

Cravings, Obesity, and the Psychology of Eating

Timestamp: [28:30]

Jenny Urich:
"Your explanation of 'need states' and how flavoring technologies target our emotional and physical needs was fascinating. How does this contribute to obesity and overeating?"

Mark Schatzker:
"Artificial flavors create uncertainty in our brain’s prediction of what the food contains. This uncertainty drives a craving for more, as our brains are wired to seek additional energy reserves when faced with unpredictability in energy sources. This mechanism is a significant contributor to the obesity epidemic."

Key Points:

• Sweetness and Uncertainty:
  Artificial sweeteners provide sweetness without consistent calories, confusing the brain’s energy expectations. This leads to increased consumption as the brain anticipates the missing energy.

• Blunted Pleasure Response:
  Chronic exposure to artificially flavored foods dulls the brain’s pleasure response, making natural foods less satisfying and perpetuating the cycle of overeating.

• Psychological Impact:
  The manipulated flavors drive behaviors akin to gambling, where uncertainty and the potential for reward lead to compulsive consumption.

Notable Quote:
"We suffer from an epidemic of craving. People want food too much, and the food we eat never truly satisfies us—it’s a miserable cycle." – Mark Schatzker [28:30]

Nutritional Wisdom and the Human Palate

Timestamp: [36:30]

Jenny Urich:
"You liken humans to livestock in terms of how we process food with added flavors. Could you elaborate on how artificial sweeteners contribute to metabolic issues?"

Mark Schatzker:
"Artificial sweeteners, much like palatants in animal feed, distort the body's natural hunger signals. While some studies suggest they may aid in weight loss by reducing calorie intake, the broader cultural and neurological impacts—like increased cravings and metabolic mismatches—are concerning."

Key Points:

• Comparison to Livestock Feeding:
  Just as animals are fed additives to maximize growth efficiency, humans are consuming flavor-enhanced foods that promote overconsumption and metabolic dysregulation.

• Artificial Sweeteners Debate:
  While they offer calorie reduction, the long-term effects on brain chemistry and eating behavior may undermine their intended benefits.

• Metabolic Derangements:
  The inconsistency in sweetness levels from artificial additives leads to metabolic confusion, reducing the body’s ability to regulate hunger and energy use effectively.

Notable Quote:
"We have created food that fundamentally lies to our brains about what it contains, leading to a deep, terrible cycle of maladjusted eating." – Mark Schatzker [28:30]

Cultivating a Healthy Relationship with Food

Timestamp: [40:36]

Jenny Urich:
"Your insights into how changing our palate by removing artificial flavors can alleviate cravings are empowering. What changes can listeners expect when they start cutting out these additives?"

Mark Schatzker:
"As you eliminate artificial flavors, your palate begins to recalibrate. Foods begin to taste as they naturally should, leading to greater satisfaction with less consumption. Over time, your cravings for manipulated flavors diminish, and your preference shifts toward genuine, nutritious foods."

Key Points:

• Palate Recalibration:
  Removing flavor additives allows natural flavors to emerge, enhancing satisfaction and reducing the urge to overeat.

• Long-Term Investment:
  Developing a refined palate is a lifelong process that yields sustained health benefits and a more enjoyable eating experience.

• Modeling Healthy Behavior:
  Parents and caregivers play a crucial role in shaping children’s palates by modeling and introducing natural, flavorful foods from a young age.

Notable Quote:
"Your palate is a growing living thing. It can and will change. As you remove artificial flavorings, your desire for real, nutritious food increases." – Mark Schatzker [41:23]

Hope and Empowerment for a Better Food Future

Timestamp: [49:42]

Jenny Urich:
"Despite the challenges, your book offers hope. How can individuals empower themselves to create a healthier relationship with food?"

Mark Schatzker:
"Embracing real, unprocessed foods is key. By understanding how flavors work and how they affect our brains, we can make informed choices that prioritize our health and well-being. Cultural shifts towards valuing natural flavors and nutritional integrity are essential for lasting change."

Key Points:

• Cultural Shift:
  Advocating for a societal change in how we value and understand food can lead to widespread health improvements.

• Personal Empowerment:
  Individuals have the power to choose foods that support their nutritional needs and enhance their natural palate, breaking free from the cycle of cravings driven by artificial flavors.

• Positive Relationship with Food:
  Focusing on the joy of eating and the natural satisfaction derived from wholesome foods can transform our daily experiences with food.

Notable Quote:
"We can have an amazing relationship with food without paying a terrible price. There is reason to be hopeful." – Mark Schatzker [54:35]

Conclusion

Mark Schatzker’s The Dorito Effect sheds light on the intricate relationship between food flavoring and our health. By understanding the mechanisms behind artificial flavors and their impact on our cravings and eating habits, listeners are empowered to make healthier food choices. This episode emphasizes the importance of returning to natural, flavorful foods to restore our innate nutritional wisdom and foster a positive, sustainable relationship with what we eat.

Final Thoughts:
"Eating is wonderful if you eat the right food. We just have to change our values and start understanding food the way nature created it and how we were created." – Mark Schatzker [54:35]

---

Recommended for Listeners:
For those inspired by this episode, The Dorito Effect is a must-read for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of food science and its implications on health. Additionally, Schatzker's follow-up book, The End of Craving: The Lost Art of Eating Well, further explores the science of cravings and provides actionable strategies for overcoming them.

---

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, promos, and non-content segments to focus solely on the insightful discussion between Jenny Urich and Mark Schatzker.

Transcript

[Jenny Urich]

You know that feeling when your kids are asking for another snack and you're thinking I just fed you, but you're also trying to avoid giving them junk? Yeah, same. That's why I love Thrive Market. My go to online grocery store for getting all of my healthy essentials delivered right to my door. No crowds, no label reading marathons in the snack aisle. Just real food that I trust. I don't know about you, but I want to pronounce the ingredients on my kids snack labels. Thrive market bans over 100,000 harmful ingredients so I know I'm in good hands. Their team does the research and I just click add to cart. Right now my kids are obsessed with the simple mills crackers, perfect for lunch boxes. And I love that Thrive remembers what we liked last time with their Buy It Again feature. I also stocked up on Primal Kitchen sauces using their high protein filter, which is such a time saver. Plus, Thrive Market gives back. They accept Snap EBT and offer free memberships for low income families through their Thrive Gives program. So when I shop, I know I'm supporting a brand with heart. Healthy groceries simplified. Ready to make the switch? Go to thrivemarket.com 1000hours for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T H R I V E market.com 1000hours thrivemarket.com 1000hours welcome to the 1000hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have just recently read a book that's been around for a decade, but I it's new to and it has changed my life. It is called the Dorito the Surprising New Truth About Food and Flavor. And the author, Mark Schatzker is here. Welcome, Mark.

[Mark Schatzker]

Thank you so much for having me. Great to be here.

[Jenny Urich]

So I found your book through Vani Hari. When I read a book, I often give myself permission to buy one other book because in a book, you know, there's always information from other books and it could easily spiral very quickly. But I give myself permission to get one other book and yours was the one that I was like, oh, I want to read this book, the Dorito Effect. And it is the missing piece for me. It's the missing piece. We have been on this path of health and people who have listened to our podcast have heard. I talked to this woman, Dr. Kate Shanahan about seed oils. So okay, we're trying to pull those out and obviously, you know, we've known for a long time about aspartame so we don't do that. And then we've been pulling out food coloring, and you're looking at these labels. And what I didn't realize is that all these things still had natural flavors in them. The chicken from Costco, it doesn't have seed oils in the little packets, but it has natural flavors. I mean, it's in everything.

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah, it really is.

[Jenny Urich]

I had no idea. So the book is about so many things, but really about the fact that two things have happened sort of simultaneously. Our food has gotten blander and flavor technology has increased, and the combination of these two things is wreaking havoc on the way that we feel and the way that we eat and cravings and all of that. And I didn't know this. I didn't know about it. So could you give a little bit of the history mark about. Let's start with this blandness piece. So you start talking about how people who are older are like, the food doesn't taste the same anymore. You talk about diluteness, what has happened in our food supply in general.

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah. I mean, you've keyed onto the central points, and thank you for that. The one thing I want to say even before that is I think what was so important to me about this book is that we just start thinking about flavor. Our discussion about food is so incredibly abstract. It's like we're all wearing lab coats. And we talk about chemicals and protein and carbohydrates as though we all have PhDs and we just imagine chemical reactions in our body. And we never stop to think about the fact that at least three times a day we sit down to eat. And eating should be a joyful occasion. It's very often a social occasion. It should be. I don't think it's good to eat alone often. And eating is a time where you prepare yourself for the indulgence, the pleasure of eating. Food tastes good. And we tend to be afraid of that. We never start to think, why does food taste good? Why does some food taste bad? Why does it have flavor? We think we can somehow just put it in this little black box and avoid it and be these super powerful thinking scientists and speak in totally abstract terms. But the truth is, we are all slaves to our urges and to our pleasures. And we have to understand why food delights us, what has gone so terribly wrong? And this book was the first step in what's really kind of a life journey to get to the bottom of what's going on. And so let's start with blandness, because there's nothing. Well, I guess something tasting disgusting or awful is worse than something tasting bland. But bland food really is not fun. And this is what's happening to so much of the food we grow. And the reason is because of the green revolution, we have gotten very good at growing a lot of food from a small amount of land. Now, this isn't all bad on some level. This is actually incredibly important because our population over the last several decades has ballooned and we have less farmland than ever to grow food on because our suburbs just keep getting bigger and bigger. And we tend to like to, you know, have big lawns. And we tend to want to build our homes on land that's really good for growing food. So we gotten really good at growing more food from less land. Mouths are being fed. People generally aren't dying of starvation. But that has come at a cost. There's often a trade off between quantity and quality. And so much of the food that we're growing is just losing its sort of depth, its richness. What makes it food. I talked in the book about the work of a scientist named Don Davis, who he talked about something called the dilution effect. He'd seen an article, I think it was, in the British Journal of Nutrition that said that fruits and vegetables were getting less nutritionally dense. And he thought, this is interesting, but he thought they made a few methodological errors. So he sat down to do a very rigorous scientific study looking at older versions of fruits and vegetables, measurements from the past versus measurements from the future. And he found this really is happening. He called it the dilution effect. And the micronutrient density, the vitamins and the minerals of the crops that we grow, you know, carrots, lettuce, celery, strawberries, you name it. It's getting less nutritionally dense because we're just getting more of it. So it's almost kind of like we're filling it with air or water or something. And this gets to part of the problem. But an even deeper problem is that these foods are losing flavor. And that's even the bigger problem. Because let's say if Your Apple has 15% less, who knows, calcium or whatever, well, just take another bite of that apple. But if that apple's bland, you're in no position to take another bite. And even worse, you're going to do something to make it more tasty. Like you might put sugar on it or whipped cream or do something like that, or maybe eat an apple flavored dessert from a fast food restaurant. And so flavor is also becoming Diluted for the very simple reason that we don't think about flavor as a population. Food growers are not paid for flavor. If you grow apples or strawberries, you sell them by the pound. No one ever says, hey, I'm going to pay you more for last week's shipment of strawberries, because they just tasted fantastic. And when breeders, you know, how do we get more? How do we get these larger crop sizes? By breeding. We breed for what are called the agronomic traits. We want better shelf life. We don't want it to rot on the shelves. Well, that's a good thing. You don't want your tomato to turn to mush in two days. We breed for disease resistance and we breed for yield. We want more. We never breed for flavor. And if you don't select a trait, it's the same as reverse evolutionary pressure. Because if you don't select a trait, if you don't put pressure for that trait to remain or become stronger, that trait goes away. The examples I talk about from the plant world is strawberries, what a great example, and tomatoes. They're both red. We always have this expectation. When you see that red, juicy looking tomato, you imagine popping a slice in your mouth, maybe just a little hint of salt, and you imagine this sort of burst of tomato flavor. And you put it in your mouth and it's just a big letdown. You're just like, oh, that sucked. And the same thing happens so often with strawberries. They're just sort of running at 40%. There's a hint of strawberryness, but you're left wanting for more. So what do you do? With the tomato, you dump ranch dressing on it. With the strawberry, you maybe put like whipping cream or sugar. You do something to make it nutritionally worse because you're trying to make it taste better. But what we've really done is stripped it of its not only its nutrition, but its flavor potential. It doesn't taste like what it ought to taste like. It's not the best, most fulsome version of itself. This is also happening with meat. And the best example once again is one we always talk about being flavorless chicken. When you say something has no flavor, you say it tastes like chicken. But it hasn't always been this way. Now there's very few people alive who can still remember what chicken once tasted like. But if you talk to real old timer about what chicken used to taste like, they'll kind of fall into a reverie of remembering just how wonderful chicken was. And it's so interesting. I love to look at old cookbooks, you know, pre 1950s, 1940s, and the recipes are just stunningly simple. For fried chicken, it says to season it with salt and pepper. For roast chicken, it says to season it with salt and pepper. And we have this tendency to look back and think, you know, these people were just unsophisticated morons. They were living on their farm. They didn't have this incredible knowledge that we have all the cookbooks and all the spices and stuff that we have access to. But the truth is, they did. If you look in those cookbooks, you can see they had curries, they had all the herbs, they had spices. They chose not to use them for chicken because chicken had its own flavor. It didn't need help. The flavor of chicken, it's not like, knock you in the face like a really good steak. It has a gentle but wonderful flavor. And this is what they so enjoy. But we have robbed chicken of its flavor. And so now you have to work so hard to make a chicken flavorfully. You have to brine it. Then we deep fry it, then we put a sauce on it, and you blitz it with some kind of a spice rubber. Funnily enough, we're not exactly adding to the healthfulness of chicken because so many of these sauces have lots of sugar in them, or you're deep frying it, putting in lots of fat. Now, I'm not one of these people who's afraid of lives in fear of food, but it's just to say when you subtract from the wholesomeness of food, you just go down. You're taking a very bad direction that leads to all sorts of terrible outcomes. And if you can grow food that tastes richly and deeply of what it actually is, eating well is easy, cooking is easy, and you feel great after you eat.

[Jenny Urich]

There's one question that's at the very end of the book that is a life changing question you wrote. This is, like, life changing for me because I'm on a health journey and I feel like this was the missing piece for me, Marc, because you cut out these other things, but there's still these natural flavors and so much. In fact, someone had given me an electrolyte from a company that I would have thought was, like, pretty legit. And, you know, I'm trying to cut these things out, and I've, you know, I have issues with overeating. Like, people have heard my story on here before, but, you know, I'm trying to make these changes. And so this electrolyte says, no sugar, no Calories. I mean, it made the water taste so sweet. I was like, this is odd. And then I, you know, I was trying to, you know, I'm trying to become a little healthier, lose a little bit more weight. And I started taking these electrolytes. Weight loss stops. And I was like, well, what is this? It says zero. Zero. You know, And I, and I took it to someone and they said it says, contains coconut right on the bag. And also it says, natural flavors. Like, you don't know what's in that. And so, I mean, it has really been the missing piece for me. The life changing question. No morsel of food should pass your lips before. You have asked the following question. Where did the flavor come from? Never thought about it. And so you say, like, this is a piece of the puzzle that no one is really talking about. They're talking about, like, all of these other things that you said. When they did this competition for making the best chicken, you know, how can we grow the best chicken? It was called the Chicken of Tomorrow contest. And it was in the maybe the 1940s or 1950s that there's this contest. And they were scored for uniformity and hatchability and feed efficiency and average weight, but nothing about flavor. And so it, it got these people to start thinking, well, if I let them go outside, that's going to waste some of their energy and they're not going to grow as fast. And it just changed everything. And I didn't know about any of this. I had no idea that there was this history. And I like that you talked about the cookbook because you did say that those same cookbooks will have like 11 types of ketchup. They were really good in the kitchen, but they only needed the salt and pepper. And the chicken took care of the rest. You wrote, the chicken situation is dire. So can we talk about how then? So there's this concept of blandness. And I watched this really fantastic documentary called the Garden of Eden a long time ago. It's really the only thing I've ever seen that talked about flavor. And they talked about how these different gardening practices made the food taste better. And they were like, people will come from miles to taste our fennel. I'm like, I don't know if I've ever even had fennel. I wouldn't even know what it looks like. But that the gardening practices contributed, at least to a degree, to the different flavor. And they talked about that, but that's the only other time I've heard of it. So we've got this Bland food. And then all of a sudden we have these chemicals. It started with Doritos with this original Dorito flavor. And now you wrote that there are 14 flavors. It went from 11 ingredients to 34 ingredients. They don't spoil. Doritos are never overdone. They always taste the same. They don't need to be cooked. They're cheap. So here's something I've never thought about. If you go to McDonald's, we're in Michigan. Or if you go to one in California, everything tastes exactly the same. I've never thought about that. And that is kind of odd. Why does everything taste exactly the same?

[Mark Schatzker]

Because we have industrialized food, and in industry, you talk about widgets. A widget is what you produce, whether it's a running shoe or an elastic band or a car tire or food. And we live in a world where foods taste exactly the same. A bag of Doritos, I live in Toronto, tastes the same here as it does where you live. It's not meant to be that way. The reason we have this ability to taste is because we're getting. It's your brain's way of getting a reading on what's coming in. And there's an incredible diversity of flavor. No two apples taste exactly the same. There's always these fine gradations. And your brain is like this amazing computer assessing exactly what's coming in. And so I talked, we just talked about how bland everything is getting. But you might be sitting there going, well, it's not like everything I eat is bland. No. And that's because we've made up for this blandness with this complementary trend that goes right in the other direction. And that is what I call fake flavor. It is flavor that's created by humans. And this all goes back. You have to turn back the clock several decades. It's interesting if you look at some cookbooks from the 1940s, it's really amazing how much they knew about nutrition. You'll find in the back some very, very in depth discussions about vitamins, about minerals, about how they interact, about what our needs are. But back then, they knew almost nothing about flavor. What made an orange taste like an orange, or what made coffee taste like coffee or chicken taste like chicken was an absolute mystery. And it's because the compounds, the chemicals that give flavor to food, they're there in tiny, tiny quantities measured in parts per million, sometimes parts per billion, even some parts per trillion. So you're talking like minute amounts. And it was the invention of a device called the gas chromatograph. That changed this. Because the gas chromatograph, what it does is it volatiles these compounds. It just sort of turns them into a vapor and puts them through this big tube and where they all separate. And they just kind of march out the other end one by one. Then you can grab them and you can put them in a different device and identify what they are. So around the early 1960s, we started to do this. And we start to identify. Like, one of the things they did is they identified what are some of the compounds. The chemicals in butter that make butter taste like butter. And they started adding those to margarine. But the big story, and this is why I called the book the Dorito Effect, is because of the story of Doritos. And it starts with a guy named Arch West. And Arch west, he could have walked off that show Mad Men. He was like a Madison Avenue ad guy. He worked in, like, Campbell's Soup account, Jello puddings. And he gets this call from the Frito company down. I can't remember if it was Frito or lay's. I get them confused. Because, of course, they merged to become Frito Lay. But right before they merged, he gets this job offer. Will you come down and be our VP of sales and marketing? And he says, sure. So he goes down, he moves his family to Texas. And shortly after he gets there, they merge, become Frito Lay, which at the time was kind of this tiny little company doing potato chips and doing corn chips or Fritos. And he takes his kids, loads the family on a trip out to California. Interestingly enough, he went to his favorite restaurant. It's in Newport Beach. It's still there. It's called the Four Crowns. And he loved steak, and he loved having the cream spinach, all that sort of thing. And one day he actually. He was leaving the restaurant, and this tall stranger came up to him and congratulated him on his daughter's beautiful hair. And they got to talking, and this guy said, have you ever been to my restaurant? And Arch hadn't heard of it, but he one day would, because it was Ray Kroc, the guy behind McDonald's. So these two seminal figures in what would be the history of North American food, worldwide food, had this chance meeting. And like ships in the night they passed. You'd think that would be the moment that changed Arch West's life, but it didn't. It's something that happened a couple days later. They were driving south towards San Diego. And his daughter recounted the story to me. They passed what Looked like this little Mexican shack. And Arch west, the kind of guy is like, I just got to check this out. So he pulls over, and he gets what would have been his first ever experience of tortilla chips, which just these little, you know, triangles of the previous day's tortillas. You cut them into triangles, you deep fry them. And he tasted them, and he had this vision. This is going to be the next big thing for my company, Frito Lay. So he goes back to Dallas, and he presents his amazing new idea to his fellow executives. And they just look at him. They're like, what are you talking about? Like, we already sell Fritos. Those are kind of the same thing. And they just nix it. And he's like, you're wrong. And he was so confident that he took these discretionary funds. He took money he was not supposed to use for his tortilla chip idea. And he invested in his tortilla chip idea. And he developed them. And he figured out how to make them and how to cook them. And he gave them a little sort of name that, in a sort of bastard Mexican pigeon. Means little pieces of gold. And he comes back to his executives. He says, gentlemen, I present you Doritos. And he gets the green light. And Frito Lay starts selling Doritos. And it's a disaster. They're not selling. The complaint is, this snack sounds Mexican, but it doesn't taste Mexican. So Arch west has to face these executives that once he'd lied to. He'd taken this money to develop the thing he wasn't supposed to do. And they're like, what are you going to do? And he says, let's make them taste like taco. And there's laughter in the room. And one guy goes, our Yankee friend from the north doesn't understand the difference between a thing and a flavor. And up until that point in time, that was an astute judgment. Because different things had different flavors. If you wanted the flavor of a grapefruit, you gotta get a grapefruit. If you want the flavor of a hot dog, you gotta get a hot dog. If you want the flavor of tomato, you have to get a tomato. But Arch west knew, probably because of his favorite steak restaurant. Which was owned by the guy who invented Lawry's Sea and Salt, that the world of flavor was changing. That there was this device called the gas chromatograph. That meant you could figure out what made stuff taste like, what it was. And you could take those flavor compounds and put them in whatever you wanted. And shortly after that, Frito Lay came out with taco flavored Doritos. Now, let's remember something really important. Nutritionally, they were exactly the same. Same amount of carbs, same amount of fat, same amount of salt. It was this dusting of flavor compounds that turned a chip, a tortilla chip that nobody wanted to eat into a tortilla chip that is now famously like, you cannot stop eating it. That is the power of flavor. That is how the world changed. That is why Doritos are so successful. But Doritos aren't a problem. We're doing this to everything. Like you say, there was natural flavors in that electrolyte drink you had. They're even putting natural flavors in chicken because chicken is so bland. And they call them natural. They used to call them artificial flavors. They're basically the same thing. Natural flavors is just this term the industry came up with to make it sound like it's like, from the forest and it's healthy, but it's just all natural means is that they used it using, quote, natural methods like evaporation or a centrifuge or fermentation. But these are flavor compounds. What's important to remember is they are out of context. Strawberry flavor within the context of a strawberry is your brain's way of knowing this is a strawberry. When you take that strawberry flavor and you put it in a soda and you load it up with sugar, your brain thinks it's getting strawberry and it's getting something else. And this is the story of what we've done to food. So much of what we eat in the moment, it has this pleasing quality, but it's telling your brain a lie.

[Jenny Urich]

And it's so inexpensive. One of the things that you had written was it takes. Cause you talked about this dusting of flavor, and you wrote it takes so little flavor to flavor a drink, a granola bar, a serving of yogurt, or even a bag of Doritos that the cost is often measured in fractions of pennies. It costs less than 5 cents to flavor 24 cans of Coke. So this is now just getting added to everything because of how inexpensive it is and because things are bland. And then, because obviously then you're eating more. And that's a big deal. You're eating more because your brain is tricked. And so these food companies are making a lot more money. And you wrote about how basically we're just eating food from labs. The real kitchens are factories. The real cooks are companies like Griffith Laboratories. And even at restaurants, it's like you're ordering off a menu, you think you're ordering this thing that's being cooked, but a lot of these kitchens, they're just ordering off of menus as well, from these different laboratories. This is one of the reasons why fast food can taste the same thousands of miles away at a different place as it does right where you live. Vacation season is nearly upon us. We are actually spending a week at the ocean in South Carolina soon, and I can't wait. This year I'm treating myself to the luxe upgrades with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices. There are super cute lightweight European linen styles from $30, washable silk tops and comfy lounge sets, and they even have premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. The best part? All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. I can't wait to slip on their 100% organic cotton crew sweater and slide into their Italian leather platform sandals for those cool evening walks on the beach. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quince.com outside for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com outside this episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado. When it's time for you to ditch.

[Mark Schatzker]

The blacktop and head off road, do it in a truck that says no to nothing. The Chevy Silverado Trail Boss get the rugged capability of its Z71 suspension and 2 inch factory lift, plus impressive torque and towing capacity thanks to an available Duramax 3.0 liter turbo diesel engine. Where other trucks call it quits, you'll just be getting started.

[Jenny Urich]

Visit chevy.com to learn more. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Ebglis. After an initial dosing phase of 16 weeks, about 4 in 10 people taking EVGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

[Mark Schatzker]

EBGLIS Lebricizumab LBKZ a 250mg injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapy. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Eglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebglis. Before starting ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief.

[Jenny Urich]

Ask your doctor about eglis and visit ebgliss.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979. I want to talk about the health impacts, but before we get there, can we just quickly talk about. So the flavoring thing. Vanilla was a big push to vanillin. Is that how you pronounce it?

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah. So that was one of the origins of the flavor industry, was the search to figure out what made vanilla taste like vanilla. Because vanilla, it's expensive to make. It comes from the vanilla orchid. The orchid produces this pod that you ferment and then you dry out. And then you soak it in alcohol and you take that extract and you have this vanilla extract. It's wonderful. Everyone loves the flavor of vanilla, but it's really expensive. So eventually a German guy figured out how to make it. He made it, I think it was from the inner lining of a pine tree, from the inner bark. And he got this white, powdery substance. It's called vanillin and is what's called the character impact compound that's in vanilla now. It's kind of like a cartoon version of vanilla. It doesn't have the subtlety or the complexity, but you taste. You're like, wow, that's vanilla. And it was super cheap to make. Eventually we started to make it and still make it from, you know, the byproduct of the forestry industry. And that's how we make so many of our flavors. It's cheaper to make it industrially than it is to go and, you know, harvest vanilla orchids or harvest strawberries or apples or. Or any of these things. That's how it works. You can. You can make them on a mass scale incredibly cheaply. And then you can take this substrate of like corn or wheat or whatever your kind of deep fried carb is and just lay it on or your sugary soda. And you make what really isn't food. It's just sort of barely food. You make it seem much more like food than it actually is.

[Jenny Urich]

Right. So this is. I mean, I think this would be a fantastic book to read as a family if you've got kids that are later elementary school for them to read and to learn the history of this so that they have a good sense of what's going on. And you talk about there was this.

[Mark Schatzker]

They.

[Jenny Urich]

They find the mystery thing and the parts per trillion and then it's all secret. Nobody knows. It's like they're proprietary formulas. And so that's why it just says natural flavors. Cause it' their secret thing. And they're not letting people know what's in there. So let's talk about how then this relates to cravings. I mean, this is a situation with my own self, which is that I would be one that would tend to overeat these types of things. I can remember even back to being maybe even like a middle schooler. And I had a brother that was really thin. And so my mom would buy oatmeal cream pies, which are like a Little Debbie thing. And I wasn't really supposed to have them because I was like a huskier kid. And I had this really thin brother. And you know, they were mainly for him. But I mean, I craved those. I don't know. These are like weird childhood experiences. My grandma would do the same thing. She would let that brother have stuff and I wasn't allowed to. So anyway, I don't know if that really matters, but I remember having these cravings and you talk about what's called need states. N E E D Need states. This isn't just about the flavor. It's about basically like these companies swooping in and trying to. I mean, it's so like, it's so tricky. They're actually like going for your emotional need state at the time and trying to fulfill it with their flavoring technologies. Can you talk about how this is contributing to obesity and overeating and how it really doesn't have to do a ton with willpower?

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah, well, on the. On just the most superficial, simplistic level, I like to talk, you know, we talk about Doritos, but let's talk about soft drinks because we always say these are sugary drinks. And it's the sugar that makes you gain weight and it's the sugar that Causes insulin insensitivity and it's the sugar that's driving diabetes. None of that's wrong. But is it the sugar that's making you drink it? And I say no, because if you, if you just imagine that, that sort of soda pop aisle in the grocery store, let's say you've got Coke, Pepsi, 7up, Dr. Pepper, they're all sort of, on a very basic level, just sugary soda water. Like the main, big, big ingredients is sugar and water and then it's carbonated. And then everything else that's in there is just tiny, tiny little amounts. Would you drink any of those things if it was just sugary soda water? I've made sugary soda water. It's not delicious at all. I mean, you have like two sips, you're like, what? Just forget it. It's the flavorings that make it seem like a drink. And these flavorings are drawn from nature. The flavorings in cola, it's cinnamon, vanilla and citrus. I can't tell you exactly what it is, that's a secret, but that's what it's based on. So the flavor companies are always going into places like the jungle and trying to find new flavor compounds in fruit. Because all these flavorings are basically simulations of something natural. So just on the most simple level, you wouldn't eat all these potato chips and drink all these soda drinks if not for the flavorings. That's what makes it seem like food. But the same thing's happening on a deeper level with so many of the, let's say the frozen or the prepared meals we have, they dump in lots of flavorings there because it makes them seem fresher, makes them seem more food like than they actually are. But then this gets even more sinister on a deeper level. This is something I get into in much more detail in the follow up book, which is called the End of Craving, which is what is the role of flavor. We never ask the question, why does food have flavor? Why does an apple taste like an apple? Why does an orange taste like an orange? Why don't they just sort of taste the same? They're just sort of like vitamin C. Fruits, right? Why does chicken taste like chicken? Well, your brain is a prediction machine. It's trying to figure out what it's getting so it can figure out what to do next. And we start to gather information about food even before we eat it. Just the sight and smell of food. Start what's called a cephalic phase, which is to say you start to secrete insulin in the Blood. Because your brain is expecting food to come. It wants to be ready for it. And what we think of as taste and flavor is essentially just information. Your brain is getting information on what's coming in. So let's talk about one. Sweetness. Now, we've all been made to live in dire fear of sugar. I'm not afraid of sugar. Now, I think a lot of people consume way too much sugar, but I think sugar and fruit is absolutely fine. There's a reason you have sweet taste receptors on your tongue, and they go to this pleasure center in the brain, because sugar is a form of energy. And let's think in a state of nature. How does this work? Well, if something has sugar in it, it tastes sweet. If something has more sugar, it tastes sweeter. If something has less sugar, if it tastes less sweet, has less sugar, has less energy. So sugar is an indication of simple carbohydrates coming in. And for 99.9% of our existence on this planet, sweetness was a good indication of that simple carbohydrate. The sweeter something was, the more energy it had. Well, now, let's look at the world we live in today. We have these things called artificial sweeteners. We have things like sugar, alcohols that are, let's say, one quarter the calories of sugar, but just as sweet. So now we live in a world where sweetness, the same level of sweetness, let's just call it sweetness level nine. On a Monday, that could mean lots of sugar. On a Tuesday, that could mean a little bit of sugar. On a Wednesday, that could mean no sugar. On a Thursday, you're back to a bit of sugar. On Friday, it's a lot of sugar again. How does your brain deal with this? Psychologists call this uncertainty. And there's a vast body of psychological literature on how the brain deals with uncertainty. And it's by becoming motivated for more. This is why we gamble. Because a gamble, a prospect of playing blackjack or betting on the football game is an invitation to uncertainty. This is why we go to professional sports events. And the more uncertain, which is, say, the tighter the odds, the better. Nobody wants to see LeBron James play me in one on one. That would be totally boring, right? There's just nothing to watch there. It's when it's uncertain that we become gripped. Well, this is what happens with food. It's now become uncertain. The brain doesn't know what it's getting, so the response is to eat more. Because if something's uncertain if that fruit tastes sweet, but it might not have energy that Might be a loss, you might be out of luck. And the more that happens, the greater the potential. You might not reproduce. You might die. So evolution did not design us just to stuff our faces. That makes no sense. But evolution did design us to respond to uncertainty by seeking more. And this is what we see when we look at the neuroscience of obesity. We don't see that people with obesity are just indulging in pleasure and just having this amazing time, just going, oh, my God, all this food. It tastes so delicious. What we see actually is there's a blunted pleasure response. They enjoy food, if anything less. The problem is they crave it too much. We suffer from an epidemic of craving. People want food too much, so it's a miserable state of affairs. People want food, and then the food that we eat never truly satisfies us. It's sort of this fake experience in the moment. And we all know there's that feeling. Half an hour later, you feel kind of gross, and yet you're hungry again. And you go back at it. It's a miserable cycle because we have created food that fundamentally lies to our brains about what it contains, and it's gotten to this deep, terrible cycle of maladjusted eating.

[Jenny Urich]

Wow. And for the parents, I thought that this was. I mean, this was so eye opening. You talked about Kellogg's now. I went and spoke with Vani Hari at Kellogg's. We did this whole march there, and at that point, they're talking about pulling out the food dyes. I mean, there's so many things that could be pulled out. But what you wrote about was. And I thought this was so interesting, and we'll talk about this in a minute. But you're talking about how the food gives information, flavor gives information. So it's tricking the brain. Like it might trick your kids if they're having Fruit Loops and it tastes really sweet, like sugar. It's tricking the brain. This is a good thing because this gives you energy. And so then your mind has all of these wrong pieces of information moving forward. You wrote, it gives a stronger flavor preference to a child, like the Froot Loops would. And then you related this to animals, like animals and feedlots. I was like, mark, this is so good, because you don't come out right and say it at the top, but you start reading and you're like, wait a minute. This is what's happening to us as people. You're talking about the animals and how animals have nutritional wisdom, but when they throw these palatans on there, which I don't know if I pronounced that right, but they're throwing these, you know, just little bags of chemicals so that these animals will eat more and gain more weight quickly so that they can make more money. Their pig or whatever. They throw these paladins on and you're like, well, guess what's happening to our food? It's not called a palatant or concentrate. It's just called natural flavors.

[Mark Schatzker]

Yes, that's it. So palatants, they put palatan in pig feed when they're especially young. They put a palatant in that makes it taste like mother's milk. One of the reasons the livestock industry is so interesting to look at is they'll only use something if it makes them money. The margins are so, so razor thin that if it costs something like pennies per ton and it's not making you money, they stop doing it. So they would not be using these things if they didn't work. And what paladins do with pigs is they improve the feed efficiency. It means they get fatter on less food. This is great if you're a pig farmer. I mean, it's not great for good pork. But if you're just a cynical farmer just trying to make money, that's wonderful. But let's think, for humans, the worst thing, I mean, we have an obesity epidemic. The worst thing imaginable, if you're someone trying to lose weight, is like, oh my God, gaining more weight on less food. What a total disaster. And yet the formula, so much of the formula for the livestock industry is kind of what we've done to our own food. It's just bizarre and demented when you think about it. But we're very much unaware of it.

[Jenny Urich]

You wrote this. Humans look just like livestock now. We achieve a state of buttery plumpness before we've even reached sexual maturity. We experience powerful cravings for food that is slowly making us sick. The rise in obesity is the predictable result of the rise in manufactured deliciousness. And so you're talking about how all of these different concentrates that they're putting on, they can fool the sheep and they fool the pigs. And that when you gave a calf, I mean, a baby cow, if they had free range choice to eat whatever they wanted, they were healthier than even the PhDs who are trying to make them the healthiest that they can be. So you talk about how flavor is this original language for all animals, including humans. What about artificial sweeteners? So you talk about how they lead to, or can lead to metabolic Derangements.

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah. Artificial sweeteners. I mean, this is a very divisive issue. A lot of disagreements on it. There's some studies, for example, that show people with obesity, if they switch from drinking soda to the diet version, they'll lose weight. And I'm not saying those are wrong, but what I'm concerned with is what effect is this happening on, on our brains as, as we develop as a culture, as you're growing up, what effect do all these things have? And I talked about uncertainty and I talked about the fact that your brain doesn't know what it's getting. This is why I'm concerned with the fidelity of what you'd call the signal that your brain is getting. Because so much of what it's getting is just false and fake.

[Jenny Urich]

Out here, there's no one way of doing things, no unwritten rules, and no shortage of adventure. Because out here, the only requirement is having fun. Bank of America invites kids 6 to 18 to golf with us for a limited time. Sign them up for a free one year membership, giving them access to discounted Tetons at thousands of courses. Learn [e-mail] golf with us what would you like the power to do? Bank of America restrictions apply. See BFA.com golf with us for complete details. Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to rem. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. To the salon owners, the spa experts, the med spa mavens, those who make every cut, massage and facial feel like a small miracle. Boulevard sees you. You transform days, lift spirits. You help people become the best versions of themselves. At Boulevard, they see you. That's why they built the first and only complete client experience platform that works.

[Mark Schatzker]

As beautifully as you do.

[Jenny Urich]

See for [e-mail] Spotify Boulevard software for self care businesses.

[Mark Schatzker]

One thing I want to talk about is deliciousness because it's a really complex word. You know, we can say a strawberry is delicious, but it's delicious in a different way than a steak is or that a pizza is. Let's take the example of A soft drink. When you add the chemicals that makes sugary soda water taste like Coca Cola, you make it more delicious. But that, to me, is kind of a superficial, in the moment deliciousness that's very different from the deliciousness of eating a truly wonderful meal or of eating, like, a great piece of fruit, which is delicious in the moment when it's in your mouth. But then there's also the way you feel afterwards. And this is something we never talk about. We sometimes even glorify this idea of like a food hangover. Like, oh, my God, it's really cool. I went with my friends and we ate pizza and got these massive steaks and we had this total food hangover. Food's not supposed to make you feel awful. Food should make you feel replete and satisfied and ready to move on with your day. And that is so rare now. So often we're seized by these cravings. You stuff your face and then you feel kind of nauseated and regretful afterwards. And this is just not the way food is supposed to make you feel.

[Jenny Urich]

So you talk about then your palate. And this is something that similar to a lot of the themes in the book, no one really seems to be talking about, you know, no one's really talking about flavor. They're not really talking about your palate. And you wrote, because this is the hope. The hope is that if you're answering the question of where does the flavor come from and you start to make these shifts, that this will be easier in the long run, that it won't be such a fight that you won't have to use all of this willpower that there, you know, maybe you won't feel quite so addicted. You wrote, your palate is a growing living thing. It can and will change. So if someone were listening to this, and this is, I picked up your book and I'm like, okay, I'm going to start. I would have never paid attention to it. Natural flavors, what's the big deal? But now I'm going to pay attention to it when I start to pull those things out.

[Mark Schatzker]

What happens when you start to pull flavorings out?

[Jenny Urich]

Yeah, like, if I start to say, I'm not going to have that electrolyte or I'm not going to buy that. Those packets of chicken from Costco, even though they have high protein and they don't have seed oils, but it says artificial flavor or natural flavor, once I start to remove those from what I'm eating on a regular basis, what happens to the palate?

[Mark Schatzker]

Oh, I see. Like, when you start to eat real food. It doesn't happen overnight, but you find that the foods that you desire and crave and the things that taste good start to change. Now, I used to drink. I was never like a. Like a Coke addict, but I used to drink Coca Cola. I was like a teenager. And it's amazing what you can do as a teenage boy. You can annihilate a large pizza and a 2 liter bottle of Coke and you're fine. But I don't recommend it. But now I find if I get a bottle of Coke or can, the first sip is kind of like, okay. Second sip, I'm like, yeah. And then by the third sip, I'm like, this is just like syrup. It's gross. I do not enjoy it anymore. Your palate adjusts now. I think McDonald's has changed. I think when I was a little kid, McDonald's was actually better, but I don't enjoy McDonald's at all. To me, it is just salty grease, mush. It's gross. A meal at McDonald's. And I, like, I can't remember the last time I had one, but I remember going. I think, like, I was trapped in an airport and starving, and it was the only option. And I was like, wow. It took me about 3 minutes to consume a ton of calories. And I feel gross. And somehow I want it again. Even though I didn't like it. It's just. It's just really, really weird. And you find you start to crave different things. The other thing to remember, and this is really important, you talk about being a parent. Children have different palates than adults. And a lot of moms, they're like, why don't my kids love vegetables? And they give their kids, like, a plate of green pepper and the kids don't eat it. And they're like, what's wrong with my kids? I'm like, nobody eats a plate of green pepper. We tie ourselves into knots of anxiety because our kids don't love vegetables. Well, it's important to remember that vegetables have some toxins in them, but we have to understand what toxicity means, because the dose, it's all about the dose. And growing things are more sensitive to toxins than grown things. This is why we worry about pregnant moms smoking. We're not nearly as worried about the health of the mom as we are the fetus, because that fetus is growing and the toxins coming out of those cigarettes. We're worried about what it'll do to the fetus. Well, one reason that it could be that little boys and girls don't like vegetables so much is because they're more sensitive to some of those plant compounds. But that changes as you get older. Now I'm just in my early 50s. I remember as a teenager, like I wanted the meat lover's pizza. I wanted double cheese. Like I was growing, I was playing a lot of sports. Now I eat pizzas that at the time made me mad. Like, I love putting arugula on pizza. I couldn't eat arugula as a teenager, but I had a different palate. It's also important with regard to vegetables. We cook with vegetables. That's how we use vegetables. You put them in a pasta sauce, you make a salad with them, you put other things with them. You might mix them with nuts or lettuce or little bits of dried fruit. So don't freak out if your kid isn't sitting there eating vegetables the way a rabbit would. Because we're not rabbits and we're omnivores and we eat lots of things. I think the important thing to do as a parent is to model good behavior. Don't get in a fight with your kid and force them to eat. I think you plant these seeds. If your kid at the age of eight watches you as parents eating vegetables, then this little light bulb goes off 10 years later and maybe they try them and maybe their palate changes. There's evidence that when fetus is exposed to flavors in the mother's milk of what the mother's been eating. So this is a really, really long game. It's not a fight, it's not a battle, it's a journey. If you think about what would you serve at a 45 year old's dinner versus a 4 year old's dinner, completely different. You're not going to serve a four year old pate and olives and like a strong cheese or something. The same way you're not going to serve like Kraft dinner or macaroni and cheese or pasta with butter to a bunch of 40 year olds. Our palates change. So we should embrace that and realize that as your kids are. You know, one of the reasons kids don't like food to touch is because their brain, they're just extracting information. So they're like, I got to keep this information, the signal, clean and strong so that they can learn the nutritional wisdom. So don't get mad at your kids. Don't freak out. It's the long game. Be gentle, model good behavior. And with time, if exposed to the right foods, their nutritional wisdom will Assert itself. Now, keep in mind, we're also in a food environment that's doing so much to try and turn the wrong way. So you can only do your best as a parent.

[Jenny Urich]

Well, you brought up the toxins, which I thought was a really interesting part of the book as well. And we don't have time to dive into all of the details. And so people can pick this one up. They can also pick up the End of Craving, which is, as a subtitle, the Lost Art of Eating well, and then you have a book about your pursuit of the best steak. So fantastic books. They all really work well together. But you talk about that these secondary plant compounds, and we're talking about getting outside. So we've learned about a lot of these types of things, about how trees can communicate. And they put off these different chemicals so that they don't get eaten by all of the giraffes. You know, the leaves don't get eaten by the giraffes. They'll put off these chemicals so that the giraffe will move to a different spot and the chemicals will go downwind and the other trees can smell it, and their leaves start putting off these different chemicals. And so there's a lot going on with, like, invasions of bugs. And a plant's defense is the set of chemicals that they can release. And so you talk about that in terms of toxicity and explaining. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but explaining this helped me understand why I could eat an entire bag of Doritos, no problem, but I could not eat a whole bushel of apples. You know, you eat one or two, and you're done.

[Mark Schatzker]

You.

[Jenny Urich]

You just can't eat anymore. And so what's going on with these processed foods is that you feel like, you know, you could eat it forever. Can't stop eating it. You can't. You're not deeply satisfied. You want more after every bite. But also, there's a difference between that and actual plants. Because your body naturally wants you to stop.

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah. So a lot of. So there's these compounds that plants produce. They're called secondary compounds. The reason they're called secondary is for a long time, scientists had no clue what they were doing. There's the primary compounds that were important for growth and reproduction. You know, that'd be like, sugar for energy and maybe, you know, something involved in reproduction. But there's all these other compounds and, like, what he's doing. And then they finally realized it had to do with strategy. So a lot of them were put there to get animals to not eat them, they put poison. A lot of plants are poisonous. We always talk about we want things to be natural because, you know, nature is safe. Nature's not safe. If you don't know what you're doing in the forest, you'll eat something, you will die. A lot of plants do not want to be eaten. In fact, this is what's so interesting about vegetables. Vegetables like an onion only tastes like an onion when you eat it. What do I mean by that? I mean, the flavor compounds in an onion only come into existence when the cell wall has been broken. This is an onion saying, don't eat me. The taste of an onion is the taste of an onion screaming. But interestingly enough, there's been this chemical arms race. So over the eons, we've learned to use these chemicals. So what started as a poison, we realized, well, actually, it kind of has a use. I can use it for something. We have to remember, it's the dose that makes the poison. And anything can be poisonous. If you have too much sugar, it's poisonous. You can drink too much water. You can die from drinking too much water. So it's the dose that makes the poison. And in a lot of natural foods, something like bitter greens. As a kid, I could. There's just no way I was going to eat a bitter green salad. That's something I like now as an O. But am I going to eat, like, a huge, massive portion? No, because that would just. That would be too much. It might even make my stomach upset. But just having the right amount. There's some delicate dance going on that we don't even understand. But on a deep level, our brain knows this is good.

[Jenny Urich]

And it's just a completely different experience than something you could just eat and eat and eat.

[Mark Schatzker]

That's right.

[Jenny Urich]

And I think that's the hope. The hope in this book is that if you are struggling with cravings and willpower, that you can make this shift. And your palate is a lifelong investment. You write. And it's. And it will change. Like, for us, we have been off of, like, aspartame sucralose for a very long time. That's like, one of the ones to me that's kind of easy. You just don't buy something that says diet. The kids know to look at the bottle. And then I had a cough drop, of all things, and I'd already had that brand of cough drop, but this was a different flavor. And you can taste it immediately. This is fake.

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urich]

It tastes like chemicals. And so to me, I thought, this is great news for someone like myself who maybe struggles with willpower or cravings that in time things can change. Because you talk about the diets, and you had this list. You say starting in the 1960s, which is pretty interesting, Mark. Right. This is like similar timeframe to the Chicken of Tomorrow contest. And all of these chemicals changing. Starting in the 1960s, people were getting fatter. The pace of diets and dieting was starting to pick up. And you write the Pritikin Principle, the Scarsdale Medical Diet, Slim Fast, the Atkins Diet, the South Beach Diet, the Zone nutrisystem, Jenny Craig the Blood Type Diet, the Mediterranean Diet, the Master Cleanse, the Dash Diet, the Cabbage Soup diet, the Paleo diet, the Raw diet. And you just go through all of these different things and how Americans spent more than a trillion dollars on weight loss between 1989 and 2012. And it has all been a terrible, amazing failure. The key problem is that we just want to eat the wrong food. This changes lives.

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah, listen, it's a big insight, and my hope is that people can start to get a deeper sense of how they work, how their brain works, why they eat, why they want, what they want. Until you understand how it's kind of all worked on a deeper level. I don't say you're doomed to being a victim, but it's a lot kind of harder to break out of the shackles, so to speak.

[Jenny Urich]

It's interesting to me that this book is from 2015. It's a decade old, and even still in the last 10 years, I've heard nothing else about it. Are you seeing that it's starting to come up more, or is it similar to my experience where it's just still sort of under the surface?

[Mark Schatzker]

I think it's still a bit under the surface. I think it might have been a bit early, but it's had a long. It's got a very strong underground following. I think the challenge for a book like this to break the mainstream is that everybody wants really simple answers. And I think the. The insight here is simple in the sense of looking at real flavor versus fake flavor, but it's not some really, really simple thing, like it's. It's all carbs or something like that. So I think we. We live in a time where we just want a simple, simple answer. It's all black and white, and this really gets into the nuance, and I think sometimes we struggle with that. But the truth is we have to be comfortable dealing with complexity if we want to solve issues as complicated and serious as these issues.

[Jenny Urich]

Well, and I think the tricky part is that when you start to pull out just these few things, like if you were to pull out seed oils, natural flavors, sucralose, aspartame, and food dye, you've pretty much limited yourself to actual food.

[Mark Schatzker]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urich]

And people will say, well, how. Like, how are you doing that? Or. But to me, actually, that's kind of a simple answer, which is like, well, it's not coming out of a box anymore. Or there's very limited things coming out of a box that are going to work. You say that the government doesn't even know how much flavor the typical American eats.

[Mark Schatzker]

It's. No one's keeping track of it.

[Jenny Urich]

Right. So. And no one's really monitoring because like you said, there are these, like, proprietary formulas and that there are so many chemicals. Like, you talked about how, you know, it used to be maybe that there was X amount of hundreds in the night in 1965. So this is really a thing. Like, if you follow that trajectory of diets and weight loss, in 1965, there's 700 chemicals, and today there are more than 2,200. Are you able to avoid it almost exclusively.

[Mark Schatzker]

I think if you eat real food, you're going to avoid it. You know, one thing I'll stress is, like, I'm not a chemophobe. I'm not afraid of chemicals. Like, the problem with. With these flavorings, they're not going to give you brain cancer. The problem is they make you want to eat too much food. That's the problem. But it's very difficult to keep track of. You know, there's no master sort of database of who's using what and how much. It's just sort of the Wild West.

[Jenny Urich]

Wow. Mark, this book has changed my life. I want to thank you. I know it's a decade old for you, and so it's got to be odd when things pop up that you're.

[Mark Schatzker]

Like, oh, no, listen, I keep talking about it. In some ways, I think the content is as fresh as ever because we still haven't understood this as a culture.

[Jenny Urich]

Yeah.

[Mark Schatzker]

So I'm glad you're interested in it, and I hope more people do because it's incredibly important.

[Jenny Urich]

Yeah. I mean, it's the. It was the linchpin for me. So I'm. I'm really seeing changes in my health from cutting out these few things. And to me, you know, it's not been that laborious or that difficult. And also, it's kind of exciting. It's kind of exciting to be able to say I'm using the flavor as information. And you talk. You talk about even our nose and our retro nasal olfaction. Like, I learned so much about how we can smell a trillion different aromas and all of that. And it's empowering, Mark. It's empowering to say, you know, I can use the nutritional wisdom that my body has. I can use all of these cool things you said, like, no one can recreate the nose. It's so powerful that no one can recreate it.

[Mark Schatzker]

It's amazing. We talked about all these reasons to be worried and upset and scared, and those are legit. But let's also be excited. I just got back from a trip to Japan, and the food was incredible. Every meal was amazing. I came back having lost two pounds, but nobody there is obese. No one's even fat. Like, it's remarkable how trim they are. And I don't want to get fat phobic or something like that. But all of this is to say we can have an amazing relationship with food and not pay a terrible price. There is reason to be hopeful, and there's nothing better. I love food. I love the taste of a great peach, of a great steak. Eating is wonderful if you eat the right food, if you eat real food, we just have to. We have to change our values. We have to start valuing and start understanding food the way nature created it and how we were created. So, anyway, I'm so glad you enjoyed the book. Thank you so much for having me.

[Jenny Urich]

Yes, I recommend it without reservation. The Dorito Effect to the Surprising New Truth About Food and Flavor, one of three books by Mark. Real Flavor, the authentic version produced by nature, is our only road to salvation. Mark, we always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.

[Mark Schatzker]

That was outside. I remember going on a camping trip with my family, and I remember catching fish and having one of those shore lunches. Maybe that's a really Canadian thing. And I remember one of the fishes we cooked was catfish. And. And he wasn't a real uncle, but we called him an uncle, and he refused to eat catfish. And I remember my brother said, oh, you should try this fish. It's really delicious. And he ate it and he loved it. He said it was catfish, but, yeah, there's nothing as good as, like, a great shore lunch after a day of fishing. That. That's a lot of fun.

[Jenny Urich]

So cool. Mark, I really, really, truly appreciate your time. Thank you for writing this book. It is really helping our family to make changes that we didn't know we needed to make, and we're already seeing the effects of them. Thank you so much for being here.

[Mark Schatzker]

Thank you. It was My pleasure.

[Jenny Urich]

Hi dear one, I'm Dr. Edie Wadsworth, your new favorite Christian life coach, and I want to invite you to the House of Joy podcast.

[Mark Schatzker]

If you're a woman over 40 or the daughter of one who wants to.

[Jenny Urich]

Build a positive mindset, healthier habits, and thriving relationships, this is the show for you. We talk about personal growth, faith resilience, and creating a life you're obsessed with. So if you're tired of feeling stuck and ready to step into more joy and purpose, come join us. Listen now wherever you get your podcast. Are you looking for your new favorite podcast that's both entertaining and will challenge you in your walk with Jesus? Hey, we're Macaquenz from the for the Girl podcast. Every Tuesday we break down everything that we wish someone had told us in our 20s. From faith and relationships to wild career transitions. We're getting real about all of our mess ups and the things God has taught us along the way. Think of us as your hilarious weekly dose of honest conversation with your Internet besties who've been exactly where you currently are. So come check out for the girl on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen to podcasts. And make sure to click Follow on our show so that each new episode is dropped right into your personal feed.