1KHO 468: 5 Powerful Prescriptions You Won’t Find at the Pharmacy | Julia Hotz, The Connection Cure

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast: Episode 1KHO 468 Summary

Title: 5 Powerful Prescriptions You Won’t Find at the Pharmacy
Guest: Julia Hotz, Author of The Connection Cure
Release Date: April 23, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 468 of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, host Jenny Urch engages in a profound conversation with Julia Hotz, the insightful author behind The Connection Cure: The Prescriptive Power of Movement, Nature, Art, Service, and Belonging. This episode delves deep into the transformative concept of social prescribing—a revolutionary approach in healthcare that leverages community-based activities to enhance personal well-being. Through compelling stories and scientific insights, Hotz elucidates how integrating movement, nature, art, service, and belonging can serve as powerful alternatives or complements to traditional pharmaceutical interventions.

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Social Prescribing: Definition and Significance

Social prescribing is defined by Julia Hotz as "a non-medical resource or activity that aims to improve a person's health and strengthen their community connections" ([08:08]). This innovative approach shifts the healthcare narrative from focusing solely on medical treatments to addressing the broader social determinants of health. By integrating community activities like orchestra practice, gardening, or art classes into healthcare plans, social prescribing targets the root causes of various health issues, fostering holistic well-being.

Julia Hotz: "If 80% of our health is socially determined, our medicine should be too." ([05:54])

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The Five Powerful Prescriptions

Hotz's book categorizes social prescribing into five key areas: Movement, Nature, Art, Service, and Belonging. Each category serves as a prescription aimed at different aspects of health and well-being.

1. Movement

Movement prescriptions involve engaging in physical activities tailored to individual preferences and abilities. A poignant example shared is the story of Frank, a truck driver diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. Traditional medical advice deemed his condition irreversible, relegating him to lifelong insulin use. However, a social prescription led him to join a 10-week cycling course tailored for his demographic.

Julia Hotz: "Frank has lost 40 pounds, come off his insulin, feeling healthier than ever, and has all these friends." ([12:32])

Through consistent cycling, Frank not only reversed his diabetes but also regained a sense of community and purpose, illustrating the multifaceted benefits of movement-based social prescriptions.

2. Nature

Connecting with nature serves as a therapeutic intervention for various mental health challenges. Dave, an individual struggling with alcohol addiction, found solace and strength through fishing. Engaging in this solitary yet peaceful activity allowed him to rebuild his attention span and foster meaningful relationships within the fishing community.

Julia Hotz: "Fishing is this very like solitary thing, but also kind of a shoulder to shoulder, you know, parallel play thing as well." ([27:12])

Dave’s involvement with the Tackling Minds group, supported by England’s NHS, showcases how nature-based activities can be integral to recovery and mental health maintenance.

3. Art

Art prescriptions encourage creative expression as a means to process emotions and reduce stress. While not extensively detailed in the conversation, art serves as a vital component in fostering creativity and emotional resilience.

4. Service

Service prescriptions involve contributing to the community, which in turn enhances personal well-being. The Impulse Center in Norway exemplifies this by integrating dementia care with farm work, allowing patients to engage in meaningful activities like feeding cows and watering plants.

Julia Hotz: "When you have dementia and so much of your life is ruled by what's the matter with you, all the things you can't do, being reminded of the things you can do... it's one of the best things that you can do for somebody." ([28:56])

5. Belonging

A sense of belonging is crucial for mental and emotional health. Social prescriptions that foster community connections can significantly improve longevity and quality of life, as evidenced by the Harvard Study of Adult Development.

Julia Hotz: "The number one predictor of people's health later in life and their longevity was the strength of their social relationships." ([42:19])

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Case Studies and Real-life Applications

The conversation highlights several real-life implementations of social prescribing:

• Frank’s Cycling Journey: Demonstrates the profound impact of personalized movement prescriptions on chronic health conditions and mental well-being.

• Dave’s Fishing Community: Illustrates how engaging in nature-based activities can aid in addiction recovery and foster a supportive community.

• Impulse Center in Norway: Showcases an innovative approach to dementia care, emphasizing active participation and connection with nature.

These stories underscore the versatility and effectiveness of social prescribing across various health challenges.

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Social Determinants of Health

Hotz emphasizes that up to 80% of our health is determined by social determinants, which include access to green spaces, community support, and a sense of purpose, while only 20% is influenced by direct medical interventions.

Julia Hotz: "Only 20% of it comes down to what happens in the doctor's office." ([05:54])

This paradigm shift encourages a holistic approach to health, recognizing the profound impact of environmental and social factors.

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Overmedication and Cultural Shift

The United States faces a rampant issue of overmedication, with a significant reliance on pharmaceutical interventions for various health issues. Julia Hotz critiques this approach, advocating for a balanced integration of medical and social prescriptions.

Julia Hotz: "We're by far the most medicated, institutionalized nation in the world." ([45:53])

She advocates for reallocating resources from pharmaceutical advertising to investments in parks and nature reserves, aligning with the social determinants of health.

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Entrepreneurial Opportunities

The rise of social prescribing opens avenues for entrepreneurs to develop innovative solutions that cater to community-based health interventions. Programs like Pedal Ready and Come Alive Outside are prime examples of businesses that bridge the gap between healthcare and meaningful community activities.

Julia Hotz: "Pedal Ready is like this refresher course. It's meant for people who are a little bit older and who haven't maybe bicycled in a while." ([15:28])

These initiatives not only promote physical and mental health but also foster community engagement and support.

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Psychological Impact of Exclusion

The episode delves into the Frisbee experiment conducted by psychologist Kipling Williams, illustrating the profound effects of social exclusion on mental health. Exclusion, even in trivial forms, can lead to feelings of anger, reduced self-esteem, and increased stress, activating the same brain regions as physical pain.

Julia Hotz: "Researchers have found that exclusion oftentimes it's not a Frisbee experiment. But in the real world exclusion happens on all kinds of levels and it absolutely does have all these health consequences." ([40:12])

Understanding these impacts reinforces the importance of fostering inclusive communities as part of social prescribing.

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Personalization of Health Prescriptions

A recurring theme in the conversation is the necessity of personalizing health prescriptions based on individual interests and what matters most to each person. Jenny Urch shares her own experience with the 1000 Hours Outside philosophy, emphasizing the importance of aligning activities with personal passions to ensure commitment and enjoyment.

Jenny Urch: "Write yourself a prescription to do something that matters to you." ([42:19])

This personalized approach not only enhances adherence but also maximizes the therapeutic benefits of social prescriptions.

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Conclusion

Episode 468 of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast masterfully intertwines scientific research, personal narratives, and actionable insights to advocate for the integration of social prescribing into mainstream healthcare. Julia Hotz’s expertise and passionate storytelling illuminate the profound potential of movement, nature, art, service, and belonging in fostering holistic well-being. The episode serves as a compelling call to action for healthcare professionals, policymakers, and individuals alike to embrace and champion social prescriptions as vital components of a healthy, thriving society.

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Notable Quotes

• Julia Hotz: "If 80% of our health is socially determined, our medicine should be too." ([05:54])

• Julia Hotz: "Frank has lost 40 pounds, come off his insulin, feeling healthier than ever, and has all these friends." ([12:32])

• Julia Hotz: "The number one predictor of people's health later in life and their longevity was the strength of their social relationships." ([42:19])

• Jenny Urch: "Write yourself a prescription to do something that matters to you." ([42:19])

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Further Resources

• Julia Hotz’s Book: The Connection Cure: The Prescriptive Power of Movement, Nature, Art, Service, and Belonging
• Website: Julia Hotz's Official Site
• Social Prescribing USA: Social Prescribing USA Initiative

For those inspired by this episode, exploring these resources can provide deeper insights and practical steps to integrate social prescriptions into personal and community health strategies.

Transcript

[Jenny Urch]

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[Julia Hotz]

The 1000hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have an incredibly special guest for you today. Incredibly. We align on so many things. I just read her book. It came out last year. It's called the Connection Cure. The prescriptive power of movement, nature, Art, Service and belonging. I learned so much. It was a phenomenally inspiring Julia Hotz. I said there we go. I just ruined it.

I ruined it. It's perfect. It's perfect.

Julia Hotz, the author is here. Welcome, Julia.

Oh, Ginny, thank you so much. I was just saying I am the biggest fan of you. Thank you for all you've done to get the prescriptive power of nature in all of our lives. Big fan.

Oh, you are the sweetest. Okay, so here's the thing. You're a journalist and to me, I have learned over the years, I think journalists write the best books because they really do a deep dive. And you did the coolest things in this book. Like you went and talked to this organization and that person and this organization. And then also you took all the things that you learned and you implemented it into your own life and wrapped it up like that, like wrapped it up with a bow at the end. It is a fantastic book. I think most people have heard of just briefly, like very briefly, oh, the doctor prescribed going outside. You know, like you hear about it in a, in like, oh, in a news article someplace. No one's really had it happen to them, but you like hear that it has happened. Right, but you wrote a whole book about not only that, but sort of the prescriptive power of all sorts of things like belonging and connection and art. Can you give us the backstory of how you got interested in this?

Absolutely. I think first of all, you're absolutely right, like for all the work you've been doing and so many others, you know, it's, it's not a novel idea to say, yeah, being outside is good for us. And I'm sure all of us, you know, when we go to our doctors or therapists, they tell us, yeah, maybe if you got off your butt and stopped doom scrolling and actually like touched grass as the kids say, you know, you'd be feeling better. That's not new. What's new here is this idea that, that doctors are literally taking a prescription pad, writing people, getting insurers on board to cover a spot in some kind of community based activity. Now, as you mentioned, the book sort of covers five categories. Movement, nature, art, service and belonging. We could talk about why those five in a minute, but generally it's about anything in your community that reconnects you to what matters to you. Shifting the conversation from what's the matter with you to what matters to you. And for me, I got interested in this notion of social prescribing because I myself had been unknowingly not well. I mean, I think especially in the United States, we have these really neat diagnostic criteria of things like ADHD or depression or anxiety. And I think more accurately, all these things exist on a spectrum. And I had identified with a lot of symptoms, but I didn't quite meet all the criteria for needing a medical prescription, for necessarily needing to work things out in therapy. What I really needed and what turns out is true for a lot of people was a social prescription. So I became interested in this really from personal experience during the pandemic, feeling like, why is it that I just don't feel well at all? And also as a journalist who was really curious about, at a systems level, like, what is working to actually address this sort of chronic unwellness.

One of the things that I love that you did in the book was you took A lot of these issues that people are struggling with, they're struggling with depression, they're struggling with loneliness, they're struggling with anxiety. And you took those. I thought this was so brilliant, Julia, because you, you get from the book, like, if I implemented movement or if I implemented more art, creating art, then it would help with all of these different types of things. But you did such a good job of putting specific ones in specific chapters and then teaching about that specific thing like depression or like anxiety. And I was so impressed with the way that the book was organized and how much I got out of it. So let's just talk about this word, social prescription. You talk about the history of it, that it's a little bit unknown. And also it would almost be better if there were a better word for it. Yeah, but can you talk about, like, what is the definition, Definition of social prescription? You say, like, this is not the end all, be all. It should be sort of a compliment to all of your other healthcare.

Oh, well, first of all, absolutely back at you. I mean, it's just. Yeah, this, this. I was really had my mind blown too, by the way, that, huh. If we think of, you know, depression as a loss of a connection and what works to reconnect us, if we think of, you know, attention disorders, if we think of that instead of what works to restore our attention, hint, hint, its nature, you know, and telling it through stories of people who've been, for example, prescribed fishing for ADHD or sea swimming for depression. This, I think both helps to destigmatize it and also, like, help us widen our imagination of what medicine could look like. So that's how I tried to do it. I really tried to first steep people in like, okay, this thing called social prescribing, what does it look like? And then we get into the nerdy details of what does this term mean? How is it actually applied in healthcare? And you're absolutely right that it's not a perfect term. And it's confusing too, because people hear social prescription. They think, you're telling me I need more friends, like, you're prescribing me social connections. And for sure, like, that is in some ways part of it, because we know that the more connected we are, the healthier we are, we live longer. Social connection is highly correlated with all these kinds of health benefits. However, the name social prescribing actually comes from this fact that up to 80% 80 80% of our health is determined by our social environment. And that means, do you have access to green space do you have somebody you could call at 3am in a crisis? Do you feel a sense of purpose in your work? All of these things is what composes our health. Only 20% of it comes down to what happens in the doctor's office. And there's been a lot of literature in health care, this thing called the social determin determinants of health. And it's really important we continue to do that. It looks like, you know, helping people access nutritious food, helping people get into better housing. But what social prescribing does is it says, you know, let's also include community activities as part of that. If 80% of our health is socially determined, our medicine should be too.

Oh, it's so good. It's so good. I want to read what you wrote. Definition. A non medical resource or activity that aims to improve a person's health and strengthen their community connections. It can be anything from orchestra practice to fresh vegetables and treat things from everything from depression to poverty. And you talked about that. I never heard the phrase social determinants of health. So you talk about we're so focused on surviving. Like we need water and shelter and. But you were like, no, no. But we also need to thrive. And to thrive, we have to have sources of joy and meaning and relationships in our environment. We have to have a reason to wake up in the morning, things that make us feel healthy, connection to what matters to us. And that social determin of health are the marriage of those two. Surviving and thriving. You put them together and those are the social determinants of your health. So I would love to talk about a couple of the stories in here. It's really laid out so well, kept my interest from start to finish. And I, like I said I loved how you took different health, major health situations that people are facing and kind of plugged them into different chapters and gave a broader sort of background on those. But one of the stories I was really drawn to was this guy named Frank who is this truck driver and he has a health crisis. He's sitting so much he becomes diabetic. It's his type 2, not type 1, type 2. No one says that he can reverse it, but he, he joins his biking program. It's such a cool story. And I loved this. You wrote, Frank is not a doctor, but he is a different type of health expert. And I thought, oh my goodness, that's such good phrasing. Like there are different types of health experts. So I guess my question is, because I'm talking too much. Can you talk to us a little bit about Frank and the lifestyle choice that he changed and how that changed his life.

Absolutely. Yeah. I love Frank's story too. It always warms my heart. He's the first person that I met who really had their life changed by a social prescription. So as you mentioned, you know, Frank's story is he's this truck driver and it's actually true that truck drivers are much more likely to get type 2 diabetes than any other segment of the population because most of their days are sedentary. They're spending a lot of time alone in a truck. That's going to have a lot of health consequences for all the things you've talked about too. Like this is not how we evolved to live. So this is Frank's story. He's told he's going to be on insulin the rest of his life and he starts to dread the doctors because every time it's this sort of wagging finger thing of, you know, Frank, you need to eat better or you need to exercise more. How many of us have been to a doctor and they tell us we should exercise more. But what this new doctor did when Frank just happened to move to a new place, he finds this new doctor who, spoiler, is a big fan of social prescribing. And he says, Frank, I'm not going to give you the usual spiel. Tell me, what did you love to do as a kid? Like, when you think about your childhood, what was something you could spend hours doing and, you know, you totally lose track of time doing it, or what's something that you're curious about in your neighborhood? Like these kind of questions that get at the cardinal social prescribing question, what matters to you? And that's what Frank says. Well, I used to love riding my bike. But like most people in Frank's age demographic, you know, he's over 50 years old. He hasn't rode a bike in years. He doesn't have a bike. Where do you begin? So what does this doctor do? This doctor writes him a social prescription. He prescribes Frank a spot in this 10 week cycling course designed for people like him, over 50, trying to learn to bike again in this beautiful. This is in England, by the way, this beautiful park in North England. Annie prescribes him a bicycle.

Right.

And this is all done through sort of the nerdy back end of how social prescribing works. But the moral of the story here is that Frank goes to this. First of all, he meets people like him. It's the first time he's made a new friend in years. And by the end of this 10 week cycling course, Frank doesn't want it to end. So what does he do? He starts a WhatsApp group with the people in the course. He starts recruiting new people to join him on a bike ride. They keep the weekly time, Tuesdays, 10am they continue to meet. They call themselves the chain gang because, you know, every biker group needs a cool nickname. And now Frank has lost 40 pounds, come off his insulin feeling healthier than ever, and has all these friends. And that was all from just this one social prescription.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And, and there's other people's stories in this chapter about movement, but I just, I was really drawn to this one. And you're also talking about depression in this chapter two, but you talk about how, I mean, he came off his insulin.

He came off his insulin.

He said, I just want people to understand that you can reverse your type 2 diabetes and I'm proof of it. If I can do it, anybody can do it. And I thought that the pedal course that he took, which was called Pedal Ready, was really interesting. So let's talk a little bit more about that. I love the wording where he said, I tried to join other cycling groups, but it feels like everyone is in the Tour de France. You know, they want to go as fast as they can. And I thought, well, this is a really interesting thing about re entering into something that maybe you used to love but haven't done in a long time. And so like, you even talked about the word gym, timidation, which I thought was a great word. Like there was a time in my life where I was like super fit and could have done all the things and then you don't. I told a story once where I went to a gym. It's very local to me and I was just trying to get back into it. And so I didn't want to use the weight. I'm like, I just want to show up and make the commitment. And they were like, no, you have to hold these weights. And like, I don't want to hold the weights. Like, I don't, I don't want to hate it.

Yes.

So like, this thought of people who feel, maybe feel like they're too far gone, but this is a program that's meant just for them a hundred percent.

Oh, Ginny. I loved so much about what you shared there. And I think this is where our sort of movements really overlap. Like, let's build this movement around something positive, around what matters, rather than trying to treat A negative. I think that, you know, if Frank's doctor, like so many before had said, frank, you need to exercise and I'm going to time you on the treadmill, it becomes this, like, chore that people hate. But when you make it personalized about what matters to a person and you sort of anticipate all of the kind of barriers that they could come up with, whether it's feeling comfortable, are they going to be the oldest person in the room, are they going to have a bicycle? Like, anticipating all of those sort of barriers and making it. And here's where I think our movements really overlap, making it as easy and accessible as possible for people to opt in, making it fun. That's what this is all about. Our health doesn't have to be this chore. And the gym intimidation stuff, I mean, that's just one. Like, even the word fitness, I was so surprised to learn has its roots in, like, military training. A lot of our modern exercise culture does. But I'm so grateful for you and so many other people who are kind of taking it back and saying, let's make this about movement, let's make this about joy. Let's be outside and do this in an environment where we as children seem to love, why not in adulthood, too? So, yes, that's what social prescribing is all about.

I think having a company like Pedal Ready is a job of the future.

Yeah.

Because people are so disconnected with their health. And when you hit these older ages and you haven't biked in 20 or 30 years, you need a refresher. So Pedal Ready is like this refresher course. It's meant for people who are a little bit older and who haven't maybe bicycled in a while. And so what they wrote was. And you, what you wrote that they said was you don't have any spare mental capacity to enjoy biking if you haven't done it in a really long time because you're nervous.

That's right.

This is amazing.

Right?

They created this course for people to get back into the life that they loved.

Yes.

And I just thought, this is going to be a career of the future. I think for people who are entrepreneurs, this is a wonderful, wonderful thing. I loved reading about that.

[Unknown]

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[Jenny Urch]

And I can't wait.

[Unknown]

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[Julia Hotz]

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[Julia Hotz]

You talk in this chapter also about depression and you talk about cold water swimming and and some different ideas was interesting. You talked about how the cause of depression is unknown. Truly that a lot of things are placebo, that there's a trial that compare pharmaceutical antidepressants with exercise and found that they're equally effective in reducing symptoms of depression. But what I really loved Julia was that you did these things like the end of the book wraps it up with you trying the different things and I thought was so cool was you took the concepts but you made them personal to you. So you didn't do cold water swimming but you did do a 5:00am running group. Yeah, they both sound equally awful.

Yes. Well thank you so much Ginny that you know, that's right. Because I mean, look where we're at right now, especially in the us we're a long way away from having social prescriptions be mainstream. There's a group out there, Social Prescribing USA that's trying to make it mainstream by 2035. But in the meantime, and again, thanks to people like you who are sort of reviving the culture of how beautiful it is to be outside and to play and to create and to move, we could prescribe ourselves these things. And I really wanted to make sure that the book started with sort of the scientific literature. Like, yeah, it's not in your head that you feel good after moving. This increases your serotonin, your endorphins, your dopamine, nature. Oh my gosh, we could talk all about that. All the amazing physiological properties that come from being in nature. The way that it benefits your attention, the way that it reduces your cortisol production, the way that it's been linked to an increase in NK cells which are these anti cancer proteins. Amazing stuff. But in the meantime, it's good. Like we said, it's going to be a long way away before our insurance companies and our doctor's offices and our therapists start really integrating this. So we could prescribe ourselves these things by using the same kind of what matters to framework. And you're totally right. Like for a lot of people, a 5am running group sounds awful. And it's true that even for me it's like, oh, who wants to get up at 5:00am? You know, it's supposed to put you out of your comfort zone, but the amazing rush that you feel after doing that in the morning, it's a little chilly out, but here you are watching the sunrise with these amazing people running up Times Square when there's not a soul there. It's beautiful. Especially like, and this is also where we differ. I live in New York City, so the opportunities for green space are a little bit few. And in between, that said, there are incredible groups that are trying to make more of us live with nature more. So yeah, I think it's gotta come down to the person's choice for sure.

You did such a wonderful job of like opening the door to so many different ways to implement it. It gets your mind spinning. And I love that you showed at the end like your story, which is you're talking about cold water swimmin. That's not what you did. You did something different. And so it just very clearly shows that there's a lot of options out there. A lot of options depending on where you live and what stage of life you're in and what you love to do when you were a kid and what matters to you. You wrote, when my alarm blares at 5, 10 in the morning, my eyes feel like kettlebells. My first reaction, Annoyed. I'm annoyed at my ex, you know, talking about working through a breakup. I'm annoyed that I have to have this movement medicine in the first place. I'm annoyed at my accountability buddy. I'm annoyed at you, the reader, because I'm trying, because I wrote this book. But then you say, like, you just feel so good. And the cold water swimmers felt the same. They said it helped them with feelings of being stuck. There's a lot of options out there.

Yeah.

So so much in that chapter about movement. And the book also goes to, like, what's going on in different countries around the world. Let's talk about nature, obviously. Cause this is the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. Now, your movement can happen outside, just like the biking and the running club could happen inside too. But you talk about actually prescribing nature. And in this chapter, you're talking quite a bit about stress. So this is a very common problem. All of these things are very, very common problems. Depression, stress, attention deficit anxiety, all these different things. Diabetes. So when you talk about the stress, you talk about a fishing prescription. This is in that book. So also talking about attention things as well. But I thought, oh, my gosh, there's groups for all sorts of things. This group is called Tackling Minds. That's a brilliant name. So let's talk about not being able to access that nature in adulthood, because maybe it's not close by, but also maybe you don't think about it. This guy Dave says he grew up being outside, which a lot of people would say that I grew up being outside, but never thought to dedicate time to it in adulthood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Wait, I didn't ask you a question. Sorry, I just stopped talking.

Oh, I'll rip on that. That's great. That's great. Because. Yes, and. And that is where a thousand hours outside come in. Because he. I mean, I think that captures, I think both what social prescribing is about, what you're trying to do. Like, most of our environments are not conducive to us choosing outside. It's the norm to be inside. It's the norm to go to work, go to school, come home, watch tv, scroll on our screens, eat dinner, scroll some more, go to bed. And it almost feels like culturally we think of going outside as a nice to have. But what all this research suggests is that we should be thinking about nature and being outdoors as medicine, because it is. Why does it feel so good and restorative to be outside? Because it was actually very beneficial for our survivor to be able for our survival, to be able to like, pay attention to the birds and understand how to fish and understand the sun's patterns, things like this. So what researchers now know is, as we mentioned before, being outside has all these physiological benefits when it comes to stress reduction, when it comes to improved attention. One study found that giving kids Ritalin and prescribing them just a 30 minute dose of nature, the, the attention benefits you get from that 30 minute dose of nature is equal to, if not stronger than, the Ritalin. It's mind blowing. And there are groups, you know, in the US but particularly abroad, that are taking those facts and doing something about it. And tackling minds is one of them. So as you mentioned, this guy Dave, who is this amazing, charismatic, describes himself as an ex partier, really struggled with alcohol addiction. And when he was going through his sobriety journey, the one thing that he did that sort of brought him a new source of attention, as he calls it, was looking out his window and looking at this lake and finally being curious about what's inside. So he goes on this rabbit hole of learning all about fishing, watching these YouTube videos, and then finally he says, I'm gonna fish. And what he finds, gets this equipment and just starts sitting out there on the river and, you know, fishing is this very like solitary thing, but also kind of a shoulder to shoulder, you know, parallel play thing as well. What he finds is that he becomes addicted to the feeling of catching the fish, addicted to sort of the feeling of having to sit and wait and just be still with nature and wait for its natural reward to come. He finds that this more than anything else, he says this is what helped him through his sobriety journey. And then what Dave did to help others get those benefits is he starts this group, Tackling Minds, to kind of play on words that, you know, tackling or fishing can have all these mental health benefits. And he eventually gets support from England's NHS to be able to accept prescriptions for people who, whether they're dealing with addiction or ADHD or on the autism spectrum, get prescribed spots in this. And when I show up there, it's this beautiful thing where you've got people in their 70s who, you know, are recovering from complex trauma, who are now healing through fishing to 16 year old school children. And here they are together, fishing every Thursday. You know, no small talk, just fish and funny stories. And it's beautiful.

Unbelievable. I looked them up on social media. They've got like 10,000 followers. It was really cool. I learned so much from your book. I didn't know about these different things and I thought, what wonderful things people have going on. Dave wrote. I'm pretty sure it was Dave because. Yeah, it must have been Dave because you talked about he struggled with addiction. He says even 38 years in, I tell them I can still feel like I need a drink on the odd occasion. And when I do, I will deliberately take myself out for a couple hours of fishing, even in horrible weather. And I thought, oh, that's such a powerful thing because whatever it is for you, and that's what you talk about in this book so much. It's like, what is it for you? What matters to you? What are you doing to look after yourself? What makes you feel healthy? Whatever it is to you, then you choose that thing. And it's gonna help you with depression and diabetes and stress and attention and addiction and all of these different things that so many are struggling with. And like I said, it's just this constant reminder that there's a lot of opportunities out there. You talk about trauma, panic attacks, anxiety. All of this is covered in the book. You talk about even reading. Reading could be something that you turn to. When my brain is really overworked with something, I just can't let go. I'll crack open a book. Yeah, I want to talk about this. So you talk about service and you talk about this farm. It's called Impulse Center. Did I. I don't even know if I'm saying that right.

You got it. That's right.

Okay. It's spelled kind of interesting, Impulse Center. But it's a place where they have patients who have dementia. And you kind of just picture when people have dementia that they go to this nursing home and they just sit in their room all day and someone comes and takes care of them. And this place has completely changed that model. Can you tell us about it?

Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, I love this. Of all the. I mean, I. They're like children. I'm sure if I asked you to pick your favorite child, it'd be so hard. That's kind of how this feels, is like. I love all them. I can't pick a favorite. But this is the one that truly made me the most emotional because. Exactly for what you said, particularly in the United States, where rates of dementia are rising, rising, rising here more than anywhere else in the world, our de facto solution is to put people in some kind of home, some kind of care facility. Well, in Norway, which is where this impulse center care farm is, it's the opposite, because their government has invested in a national dementia care plan where every municipality has to offer daycare services for people with dementia. So I'm like, this is amazing. And effectively what you're doing is you're offering a social prescription to people with dementia. Dementia, as we know, there's no pharmaceutical cure and it's really more a set of symptoms. I mean, yes, there's Alzheimer's disease, but dementia, like most things, are on the spectrum. So what's happening in Norway is this beautiful farm looks like we're straight out of a painting, where three days a week you've got the farm owners pick people in the community up in a van. There's about 12 of them. Drop them off at the farm. First things first, they eat breakfast together. Then they're getting out there. They're doing a big lap around the farm property, which I tried to do and I literally fell on my butt. It is like, not for the faint of heart. They're coming back, you know, they're preparing lunch together. And then what they do in the afternoon is they actually do farm work. So they're clearing chicken eggs, they're feeding cows, they're watering plants, they're doing all this kind of farm work. And what the farm owner said to me is like, even the, the non glamorous tasks like cleaning up manure, people love it. Because when you have dementia and so much of your life is ruled by what's the matter with you, all the things you can't do, being reminded of the things you can do, in addition to all the knock on benefits of being in this beautiful natural environment and with other people, it's one of the best things that you can do for somebody.

Wow, Julia. Wow. Like I said, I mean, are there entrepreneurs listening? Do this in America? I mean, this is an incredible, incredible thing. One of the things I loved about it too was we just had a family member who had a, who fell, broke a bone and was in a rehab facility for a couple weeks. And we went to go visit. And it's like the most depressing place to go visit. It's not very enticing to go visit those places. And you do because you love your loved ones. But one of the things that was really interesting was if you're dealing with a family member who has dementia. I mean, that's so sad. Is it your mom? Is it your. Is it your wife? You know, is it your good friend? And this also offers opportunity for your social circle that loves you to interact with you in a way that's like, not in some drab room in a nursing home.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and it's funny you bring up. I mean, it's not funny, but it's powerful that you bring up that example. Because one thing that made me really hopeful while researching this chapter, like, it's true that in the US we're far away from having the government sponsor daycare farms for people with dementia. But what does exist here, thanks to this incredible geriatrician named Dr. Bill Thomas, who sort of got his roots in upstate New York, he created a nursing home, one of the first nursing homes that actually integrates the outdoors indoors. So that means literally having people in this nursing home take care of dogs, cats, there were like 100 parakeets on the first day. Plants, of course. And what he found, what so much research supports, is that the people who are in the sort of wild nursing home, as I call it, they took less pain medication, they were less agitated, they lived longer. And this actually saved the nursing home money. Fewer of them died, because, think about it, all those costs that were otherwise being spent on either pharmaceutical medications or other additional conditions were saved simply by having these people connect with service and connect with nature specifically. So I think there's so yes to the entrepreneurs out there. Copy that model. There's so much that we could improve in how we treat elders in this country.

You had talked about a woman, and I can't find it in my notes, but she had gone from something like 11 medications to two. You wrote, Helping feels good to the helper, but over time, it may make the helped feel incompetent. And even when we're at the end of our lives, and especially it says even, and especially at the end of our lives, it seems we still want to serve. And so I was thinking about this, Julia, in the context of they're trying to come up with, like, AI dogs. Like, you know, well, we'll give. And we'll give an AI dog to the person in the nursing home. It's less messy, that type of thing. And that may work to a degree. I'm not saying that it necessarily wouldn't work at all, but, like, what a nice thing to have it be real, a real life thing, and that the families can come and everybody can have a really good day together. And it gives residents something to care for while being cared for. I thought that was so powerful. Impulse center no ordinary farm.

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[Julia Hotz]

So much in this book. I want to talk about this. The science of Exclusion. Oh, wow. I've never heard of this experiment by Keller Williams. Did I say his name right?

Mm, that's great.

Keller Williams. Okay, this comes from a story where this guy, he's a psychologist, he's like out in some field and he gets hit by a Frisbee. So I feel like we've all had times in our life where you're like, you're just minding your own business and other people around, they're throwing stuff and it lands in your spot. You get hit by the ball. So he gets hit with this Frisbee and he starts throwing it back to this group of whoever's playing Frisbee. And then all of a sudden, without any warning, they just stop throwing it to him. And he felt awful and he was surprised about it. And he went on to do some studies about it. Can you talk about that?

Oh my gosh, yes. Even when I think about that, I. When I first read that study, my jaw literally dropped it is such a wild story. What happens next? So you sit by the Frisbee and you know if you're hit by a Frisbee, you're like, where did this Frisbee come from? I got to give it back. So he starts to engage in a game of Frisbee with the two original throwers. And what do you know, he's happy. He's there having this three way catch. And then all of a sudden, without any warning to Dr. Williams, they say, all right, that's enough. And just start throwing at the two of them again. They exclude him on the spot. And this guy who was a psychologist walks away feeling so angry. Not just even angry, but so rejected. And he feels his self esteem started to take a toll. And you know, anyone who's ever been sort of in a situation of exclusion like that, you're like, what did I do? Right? So he's a psychologist. He becomes really curious about this from a lab perspective. So he designs an experiment to replicate that study. Put people basically in a waiting room. Everyone is a plant except for one person who's going to be just like Kellen was, you know, excluded with no.

Okay, I'm stepping in because I said Keller Williams, That's a real estate company. That's why it was in my mind. His name is Kipling. I'm pretty sure.

Kipling. That's right.

I was like, no, you're like, Keller Williams. That sounds familiar. I'm like, it sounds familiar to me too. It's a real estate company. So his name is Kipling.

Okay.

Which is a very cool name, by the way. I really like that name.

Kipling.

Kipling Williams. We like your name.

Sorry. We're sorry.

I bet that Kipling has been called Keller Williams before.

Oh, I bet. I bet it's kind of great.

Okay, so Kibbling is designing the experiment.

Is designing the experiment. That's so funny. He's designing the experiment. And yeah, everyone's in on the experiment except for this one person who gets excluded. Well, he repeats this experiment and he eventually does it in a cyber ball on mindsetting too. And what does he find? Time and time again, the person who is excluded not only like, experiences the feelings of anger and annoyance that Kipling did, but they start to lower their self esteem. They have a lower sense of self worth. And this is all like, supported by FMRI scans too. And also research that shows the feelings of exclusion light up the same part of our brain as experiencing physical pain. And you think about it like from an evolutionary perspective, there's a lot of reason for that. Like being part of a group was advantageous to survival. And it makes sense that we evolved to have our bodies respond when we're excluded. We think that's a threat to our survival. And so what Kipling found is absolutely consistent with all this literature showing that exclusion oftentimes it's not a Frisbee experiment. But in the real world exclusion happens on all kinds of levels and it absolutely does have all these health consequences that you know, at least when we're talking about loneliness more generally, which is one often exclusion isolation is often one element of that. Researchers have found that it's equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. The effect of loneliness on our health. So it's no joke. Being excluded is physically mentally painful.

This would be a great thing to read with kids because it would help them to know, maybe to even feel a little bit more normal if they've had hard feelings. And also to remind them that it matters to include people. Because the Frisbee experiment and this ball experiment, these are actually really very small things like the ball doesn't get thrown to you. And he wrote Williams walked away amazed. He was dejected. He walked away amazed by how sad, embarrassed and angry he felt. And this is just like no, someone's not throwing you the Frisbee. So like I remember as a kid we played this game in school called, called 7up. And you put your head down on the table and people would walk around and they would tap your shoulder and you'd have to raise your hand and you're trying to figure out who touched you and like you know, you. What if you didn't get tapped? And that type like it's really such a small thing in the grand scheme of life. But the fact that those small things matter so much, it's so important to know about. So the results of the experiment show that the excluded person who didn't get to catch the ball had a surprisingly strong. And that's in quotes. So that's right out of the study. Had a surprisingly strong reaction to this seemingly trivial act of. It's trivial, this act of exclusion. Showing non verbal affection. I think I have a typo.

Yeah. All these non verbal signs of distress. I mean there were so many negative health consequences to come out of that it not. It surprised the researchers so much that they too. Even the people witnessing the experiment felt pain. Yes. Even just when I picture in my head I have this like gut stomach reaction how sad it is to be excluded like that.

Even when it's trivial Even when it's trivial. Questionnaires show that the ostracized tossers had lower levels of self esteem, belonging, control, and even meaningful existence. What? And even meaningful existence just by not getting the Frisbee tossed to them. Yeah, like this really matters. But then you talk about the opposite side then Julia. So this is about the social prescription for community because you said the opposite is just as true. A sense of belonging is healing.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and that's just it for all of these things. Depression, anxiety, adhd, chronic pain. There's something on the other side of that that we need to. We, of course, we need to talk about all of the conditions, but we also need to reimagine. What does it look like to be the opposite of depressed, the opposite of anxious, the opposite of lonely. And here again, so much research suggests that. I mean, my favorite study that demonstrates this is the one from the Harvard Study of Adult Development. They've been following the same group of people since 1938. It's the longest longitudinal study ever. And when they followed these people for over. No, not over almost 100 years, when they followed these people for 80 years, they found that the number one predictor of people's health later in life and their longevity was the strength of their social relationships. That was more important than income, iq, genetics, all of this in determining how well and how long you live. And, gosh, there's so many studies I could rattle off that show that. But I also think, like, intuitively, we know that. And there's this other thing I learned from this book of, you know, we tend to think about health conditions as very black and white. I have chronic pain. I have depression. And yet what I think some of the most skilled therapists do is they try to figure out, okay, you have some of these symptoms sometimes, and it might feel like all the time, but surely in your 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, there are some points at which you feel these symptoms more than others. So in those moments, what's happening? This is really big in chronic pain research. There's a researcher I love, Dr. Rachel Zopnis, who talks about chronic pain as a pain dial. Just as there are things that turn your chronic pain up, there are also things that can turn it down. And lo and behold, what's often in place when we're not feeling our symptoms, we're surrounded by other people. We're doing something we love. I mean, it's like you talk about, too, when you're spending time out outside you're more present with your loved ones. You're in a setting that our bodies have evolved to be in that other stuff that's plaguing you. It might still be there when you get back inside, but in that moment it's not. So how can we create more of those moments?

Goodness, what a powerful book. It's called the Connection Cure. I love it. Julia Hatz is the author. Okay, so you talk about then why would we not prescribe belonging? Prescribe belonging because it's a proven life extender. And when you're talking about loneliness, you have statistics from America where you talk about how there's a loneliness epidemic. A startling survey released showed that 25% 1 in 4Americans have no close confidant, which is up threefold from 1985. A whopping one in two. One in two American adults report experiencing loneliness. We now know that loneliness brings all sorts of health problems. So then you go through these different areas of the world, different countries, which was really interesting. Like, it was really interesting to learn about in Singapore how most a lot, I don't know if most, how in Singapore the government will subsidize the rent if adult kids live with their elderly parents. And so there's a lot more of that type of thing going on. But let's focus on America with the time we have here, because that's where we live.

Yeah, yeah.

And people said to you, this is never going to work in your country.

That's right, that's right. People said that. And honestly, I wrote this book because I believed them. Like, I started this book, you know, as a journalist, as somebody who, as we mentioned at the beginning, like, I didn't feel well. But when I thought about healthcare in the U.S. i didn't necessarily get excited about that as a solution for all the barriers that exist. There's, you know, what do all these insurance acronyms mean? How's my insurance company ever going to pay for this? In the United States, we're by far the most medicated, institutionalized nation in the world. So I understood the skeptics when they said, yeah, there's no way this is going to work here. And by the way, I should say at this point, you know, even though I talk so much about the power of nature prescriptions and art prescriptions, I am an advocate for all kinds of medicine. I don't think anyone should have their options taken away ever. I mean, I think that everyone's health is so unique. That's kind of the point of this whole thing. What works for one person Might not work for somebody else. I do think it's true that in the US we have a bias towards pharmaceutical medication. And imagine what it would be like if the same budget that we have for pharma advertising were given to parks and nature reserves.

1,000 hours outside. Right. I mean, even this talk about this, I'm like, yes, this has really changed our whole life, our whole family, the whole trajectory. Our kids have not needed one doctor's appointment for anything acute, except for one pink eye, which was related to all the weird Covid stuff. And I have five kids. We've been going outside since 2011. So it's 2025 is 14 years of being outside with our kids have not needed one. One doctor's appointment for an acute issue.

It's pretty amazing when you hear stories like that, that, I mean. And there you go, talk about a longitudinal study. What is that? 14 years?

Like that was five kids. So that, you know, you know, so it's like, well, how many years of life is represented there? I mean, some of them weren't born at the beginning, but it's, you know, it's something like 40, 50 years of life. It's decades of life of childhood. Kids get sick a lot. And so to your point, it's like there's no advertising for the forest or the, I mean, very little for the trees and that type of thing. But you wrote $6 billion a year goes toward marketing pharmaceutical pills.

That's right, yeah. And I think that's honestly a conservative estimate. And it's changed so much, particularly for kids. I mean, there were just two major lawsuits in the past year about telehealth companies, you know, aggressively marketing to kids, particularly for ADHD diagnoses and prescriptions. It's really, really shaped like they all rabbit hole about that. But you're absolutely right. And what's exciting about the promise of social prescribing for us healthcare. We are, as I mentioned, the most overmedicated. We're the only nation besides New Zealand that allows direct to consumer marketing.

I would say that again, I mean, because that was jaw dropping to me. I did not know that. Yeah, that. How many countries are there in the world? There are so many countries, I have no idea. I would fail at Jeopardy. I don't know any facts like that. But that there are only two countries in the whole world that allow prescription, direct prescription drug advertising to consumers. It's us and New Zealand.

That's right. That's right. Other nations, the eu, I mean, they've all like overturned it, right? And I mean, I talk about that in the book. Like that totally shaped my cultural understanding of health and wellness. Like I remember being a kid, being 8 years old, the first time I'd heard about depression, which was marketed on this commercial as feelings of sadness, was in an ad for an antidepressant. And as an 8 year old kid I'm like, yeah, I feel sad sometimes. Do I need this? You know, So I think that this has way more knock on health consequences than we'd like. But again, I also believe everyone's right to do the medication that works for them. I also believe in making our systems more inclusive of other kinds of medication, which includes time outdoors, which includes hiking, which includes art classes, which includes cooking workshops, sports lessons, all of this. And so what I think the opportunity is in the US is getting first, I think doctors getting on board. And I do believe that there are so many doctors, they say this to me all the time, like I believe in this stuff, stuff. I know that 80% of my patient's health is determined by what's in their environment, but I don't know what to do about it because I've got 15 minutes and then I've got a line out the door. And I don't know if my insurance is going to cover this. This is where social prescribing comes in. And in places like Vermont, you'll love this woman. I hope I can introduce you guys in real life at one point. Her name is Arwin Turner. She runs a local nonprofit called Come Alive Outside. Started as a community organization that, you know, hosted all kinds of local outdoor festivals. Really shares the thousand hours Outside ethos partnered with Rutland Community Health, this is in Vermont, to actually get doctors to prescribe people who dealt with mild anxiety, depression, stress. The story I tell my book is about this woman named Heather. Prescribe them a spot and come alive outside. Measure the before and after, lo and behold, not surprising. And you know, you could read Heather's story in my book the Connection Cure. But, but people are healthier, they are more physically active, they're less stressed, they have new coping mechanisms, they're more connected to their neighbors. And all of this, we know, prevents all kinds of costly health conditions down the line. It's why insurers have started, for example, to cover gym memberships. So our argument is if we're covering gym memberships because we believe that exercise in a gym is good for us, why not a pickleball league week? Why not hikes, why not art classes, why not all this other range of things that not only promote a healthy individual activity, but promote you doing it in a group that's going to have all these knock on lifestyle benefits. So that's, that's my little soapbox.

It's so good. The statistics were pretty jaw dropping. Two of the most commonly prescribed drugs are antidepressants and opioids. A 2013 study estimated at least one. At least one in six Americans take a psychiatric drug. And a lot of that goes into the water. That's an interesting thing that my midwife talks about because you don't absorb all of it and it ends up in the water supply. A recent report says Americans spend more on top selling drugs than the rest of the world combined. Another survey says 70% of us take at least one prescription medication per day and more than half take two. It's not shaming like what you said. Everyone should have the option to take what they need to take. But are you being given the alternatives? It's kind of like what we talk about here with the kids are on screens for four to seven hours, but they're outside for four to seven minutes in free play. So you're like, okay, we don't have to shame the screen users. We have screens in our home. It's not about that. It's about that there is this very crystal clear imbalance. Yeah, four to seven minutes and four to seven hours is an imbalance. And in this case, this appears to have an imbalance because like you said, you have these stories of people who were able to reverse their pharmaceutical needs through these social prescriptions. So one person gets off insulin. One person was on 11 medications and now is only on two. And so there are these paths to having less of a dependence on pharmaceuticals, though the pharmaceuticals are still available. Yeah, but maybe you might be able to change what your needs are. And you even talked about, in terms of the marketing, this phrase was so big, hungry for tranquilization. And you talked about this marketing ad. It was a full page ad from the 1960s that promised the tranquilizer. This is the wording they're using. The tranquilizer would help housewives focus during PTA meetings. This is like such a joke.

I know.

Stay calm under the pressure of busy, crowded supermarket shopping and enjoy. This is in quote, enjoy sustained tranquilization all day and night. Between 1969 and 1982, Valium was the most prescribed drug in America. You can just see that marketing. That's the marketing. Don't you want to be tranquilized?

Oh, your voice got so tranquil there.

It was so busy at the supermarket and so you're going to need this. But they marketed that and it became the most prescribed drug in America for a period of 13 years. Years.

It was unbelievable when I was like that section, I remember again, just jaw dropped the whole time. There's so much more I wish I could have included there. But I mean, I think that captures it beautifully. And it's really interesting to me that a lot of the stuff, a lot of the most commonly prescribed medications we see today, antidepressants, anti anxiety meds, stimulants, there's a wild story about that, like treating behaviorally disruptive school children in the 1930s. That's how we got to the ADHD sort of market we have today. But it all began in the mid 20th century. And I think, and lots of, you know, historians would agree with this is like that's when the world kind of stopped making sense to a lot of people. That so we became frayed from our communities. That's when we started living further and further apart. And I think that's where, you know, there was a major opportunity for drug makers to say this sort of not making sense of the world, this not knowing your neighbors, this loneliness, this anxiety, this depression, this stress. There's a market for that. And no, the solution isn't to reconnect, it's to prescribe. And so it's only continued since then. I mean, the 1950s and 60s was the beginning. And that chapter talks about a lot of the ways that the original drugs were, you know, turned out to be extremely dangerous, had to be pulled from the market. But I think even though we have safety precautions in place and there is a wider conversation now about the long term side effects of these drugs, I do still think ultimately we live in a nation where those forces are really powerful in the same way that the forces behind social media are really powerful. And I'm with you. It's not, not I, I'm not anti pills, just as you're not anti screens. We all need to come up with our health equation in a way that makes sense for us. But we should have forces making those other things more powerful and more appealing to us.

Julia. Wow. I love this book. I loved it. It's called the Connection Cure. The prescriptive power of movement, nature, art, service and belonging. I'll put the link in the show notes as well as the link to your website. I want to ask you two last questions real quickly before we wrap up. You worked with Sesame street historian Michael Davis. I just need like A teeny bit more about that.

Oh, my gosh, Michael Davis. I adore him. You should totally have him on this pod. He is a great friend to me. He's my colleague at the solution struggles of network. He's written the book of a lifetime. It's a book called Street Gang, all about the history of Sesame street that talks about a lot of these same themes, you know, so he's an icon. I love him.

I love the phrase Sesame street historian. I was like, whoa, do that. That even exists? A Sesame street historian. Phenomenal. Here's the last question. We always end with the same question on the show. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

I love that so much. Gosh, I love your podcast. Can I just say, Yeah, I said that a lot in the beginning, but I'll say it again at the end. This is a social prescription for me, is listening to you and hearing all. So many people answer this question for me. You know, I was fortunate enough to grow up on a lake that we shared with 10 neighbors with a big forest in my backyard. My happiest childhood memory, most of my childhood memories were spent literally sun up to sundown on the lake, making, like, mud structures with my brother, then later with my friends, swinging on the rope, going with my. My friend Taylor, hunting for train metal, digging through the ground. My parents still live there and I absolutely love going back to visit because I still feel this, like, childlike wonder whenever I'm back there.

It fits so well with this book because the question comes out through the whole book. What is it for you? Yeah, what is the thing for you? What matters to you? What makes you feel healthy? How are you looking after yourself? Write yourself a prescription to do something that matters to you. Julia, what an honor this has been. Thank you so much for being here.

Ginny, back at you. Such an honor to finally meet you. When you were starting to wrap up, I was like, that was an hour. I could talk to you literally all day. This has been one of my favorite conversations yet, so. And you. Oh, my gosh, you, like, really read the book. Some of the stuff I was like, oh, yeah, I did write that. Like, you really got in there. And that always means so much. So thank you for that.

[Dr. Edie Wadsworth]

Hi, Dear One, I'm Dr. Edie Wadsworth, your new favorite Christian life coach, and I want to invite you to the House of Joy podcast. If you're a woman over 40 or the daughter of one who wants to build a positive mindset, healthier habits and thriving relationships. This is the show for you. We talk about personal growth, faith, resilience, and creating a life you're obsessed with. So so if you're tired of feeling stuck and ready to step into more joy and purpose, come join us. Listen now wherever you get your podcast.

[Trey Tucker]

Are you hungry for guidance about mindset, relationships, health, finances, career decisions and dealing with your past? I'm Trey Tucker, licensed therapist and speaker and host of Rugged, a podcast where I help young men and women navigate life's challenges and find solutions to help them live lives of service and meaning. In this podcast, you'll learn mindset strategies to harness your thoughts and emotions in ways that help you achieve your goals. I bring a blend of straight talk and empathy, and I'm open to addressing any topic and treating it and the people connected to it with respect and curiosity. Come join us. We have a space for you. Search for Rugged with Trey Tucker wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to hit the follow button so new weekly episodes will be delivered straight to your personal podcast feed. My hope is that this podcast will leave you feeling encouraged and empowered to take charge of your life and close the gap between who you are and who you want to be.