1KHO 474: Using Psychology as a Weapon Against Children | Dr. Richard Freed, Better Than Real Life

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast: Episode 1KHO 474 Summary

Title: Using Psychology as a Weapon Against Children
Guest: Dr. Richard Freed, Author of Better Than Real Life
Release Date: May 5, 2025
Host: Ginny Urich, Founder of 1000 Hours Outside

---

Introduction

In the inaugural episode of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, host Ginny Urich engages in a profound conversation with Dr. Richard Freed, a seasoned psychologist and author of the influential book Better Than Real Life. The discussion delves deep into the pervasive impact of persuasive design in technology on children's development and the ensuing ethical dilemmas.

---

The Hidden Science of Persuasive Design

Dr. Richard Freed initiates the conversation by highlighting a significant shift observed over his 25+ years in clinical practice. He notes a "dramatic and profound change in childhood," attributing this transformation to the "hidden Silicon Valley secret science of persuasive design" (03:10). Persuasive design refers to the strategic creation of digital environments that manipulate users' behaviors by fulfilling their innate human drives. This manipulation operates at a "deception at the deepest DNA level," making it a potent tool for industries aiming to maximize screen time and user engagement.

Notable Quote:
"It's deception at the deepest DNA level." — Dr. Richard Freed [04:28]

---

Understanding BJ Fogg's Behavior Model (B=MAT)

A central theme in Dr. Freed's discourse is BJ Fogg's Behavior Model, encapsulated in the equation B = MAT, where:

• B (Behavior): The desired action, primarily "time on device."
• M (Motivation): Leveraging primal human instincts such as aggression in boys or social comparison in girls.
• A (Ability): Simplifying actions to make engagement effortless, often referred to as "brain dead easy."
• T (Trigger): Constant prompts like notifications that lure users back into digital environments.

Dr. Freed criticizes Fogg's approach, expressing concerns over accountability and the ethical ramifications of manipulating children's instinctual behaviors for commercial gain.

Notable Quote:
"The B that Silicon Valley wants is time on device." — Dr. Richard Freed [07:35]

---

Impact on Children’s Behavior and Development

Dr. Freed provides alarming insights into how persuasive design affects children:

• Displacement of Real Life Activities: Children are increasingly choosing screen time over outdoor play, family interactions, and educational pursuits. This displacement leads to a lack of resilience and essential life skills.

• Behavioral Issues: Instances such as children refusing to relinquish devices, leading to extreme behaviors like self-harm or aggression, are becoming commonplace. Dr. Freed shares anecdotes where asking children to reduce screen time resulted in suicidal ideations or physical aggression.

Notable Quote:
"Boys give up on real life and preteen gamers will urinate on themselves rather than take the trouble to get up to use the bathroom." — Dr. Richard Freed [11:47]

---

The Role of Artificial Intelligence and Deep Learning

The conversation shifts to the burgeoning role of AI and deep neural networks in enhancing persuasive design. Dr. Freed warns that AI's capability to model human behavior on a granular level exacerbates the manipulation, making digital environments even more addictive and intrusive. He references quantum computing's role in accelerating these capabilities, leading to hyper-personalized and unrelenting persuasive tactics.

Notable Quote:
"AI turns everything up, turns persuasive design, much, much stronger." — Dr. Richard Freed [27:48]

---

Ethical Implications and Corporate Responsibility

Dr. Freed passionately argues that the utilization of persuasive design, especially when amplified by AI, is ethically questionable. He emphasizes that:

• Manipulation vs. Autonomy: Children are deprived of making autonomous choices as their behaviors are covertly influenced by technology designed to maximize engagement.

• Responsibility of Corporations: Corporations leveraging persuasive design for profit are prioritizing wealth over children's well-being, leading to generational suffering.

• Lack of Awareness: Parents and guardians are often oblivious to these manipulative tactics, leaving them ill-equipped to protect their children.

Notable Quote:
"Nothing for children or teens should be scientifically and experimentally built to be predictably better than real life." — Dr. Richard Freed [47:37]

---

Failures of Institutional Guidelines and Media Influence

Dr. Freed criticizes organizations like Common Sense Media and the American Academy of Pediatrics for shifting their stances on screen time, often aligning with industry interests. He points out that funding from major tech companies like Mark Zuckerberg has compromised the integrity of these institutions, leading to misleading guidelines that downplay the risks of excessive screen exposure.

Notable Quote:
"Common Sense Media is a member of what I call the Silicon Valley propaganda machine." — Dr. Richard Freed [49:13]

---

Global Perspectives and Regulatory Responses

Drawing parallels with international responses, Dr. Freed references China's stringent regulations on video game usage among youth as a corrective measure to curb the adverse effects of persuasive design. He contrasts this with the laissez-faire approach in the United States, where burden largely falls on parents without institutional support.

Notable Quote:
"China stepped in and said no social media till you're 16." — Dr. Richard Freed [23:43]

---

Proposed Solutions and Parental Strategies

In advocating for reclaiming childhood, Dr. Freed suggests practical strategies for parents:

• Setting Boundaries: Emulating models like China's by restricting screen time and promoting outdoor activities.

• Educational Advocacy: Encouraging schools to limit technology use and prioritize interpersonal interactions and physical activities.

• Awareness and Education: Empowering parents with knowledge about persuasive design to make informed decisions regarding their children's technology usage.

Notable Quote:
"We need to get back to the basics of what it means to raise kids. If we can't take care of our kids, what can we do?" — Dr. Richard Freed [32:53]

---

Conclusion

The episode underscores a critical examination of how modern technology, driven by persuasive design and augmented by AI, is systematically eroding the essence of childhood. Dr. Richard Freed's insights serve as a clarion call for parents, educators, and policymakers to recognize and combat these hidden manipulative forces. His book, Better Than Real Life, emerges as an essential guide for those striving to safeguard children's developmental sanctity in an increasingly digitized world.

---

Key Takeaways

1. Persuasive Design Exploits Human Instincts: Industries leverage deep psychological tactics to maximize screen time, often at the expense of children's holistic development.

2. AI Amplifies Manipulative Capabilities: Advanced technologies like AI and deep learning enhance the effectiveness and persistence of persuasive design, making them formidable adversaries in the battle for children's attention.

3. Ethical Dilemmas in Technology: The intentional manipulation of children's behaviors for commercial gain raises profound ethical concerns, necessitating immediate attention and corrective measures.

4. Institutional Complicity: Reputable organizations have, to varying degrees, compromised their guidelines on screen time due to industry influence, misleading parents and caregivers.

5. Global Lessons and Local Actions: While some countries take decisive regulatory actions to protect youth, there's an urgent need for similar initiatives elsewhere, coupled with empowering parents through education and advocacy.

---

Final Thought:
Dr. Richard Freed poignantly encapsulates the gravity of the situation:
"If we can't take care of our kids, what can we do?"
This rhetorical question serves as a moral imperative for all stakeholders to prioritize children's well-being over technological advancements and commercial interests.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker A]

If you're a Christian, imagine what life would be like if you didn't have access to or had never even seen a Bible in your own language. For many people around the world, that is their reality. CREW has missionaries in almost every country and they're seeing people's lives changed. Thousands of men, women and children are coming to faith, but simply don't have access to a Bible of their own. In parts of Africa, CREW missionaries have to share one Bible between several people. In Europe, teens are asking for more Bibles than we can provide. In enclosed nations, this good news is spreading at an astonishing rate, but they need more physical Bibles to keep up with the growth. People are searching for truth and finding answers in God's word. That's why I love partnering with Crew. With just $24 a month, you can give three people the gift of God's word every month. And as a thank you, crew will provide 12 meals to those in need. And you'll receive a free copy of my book until the street lights come on. To Give, text our HOU to 71326 or visit give crew.org our H that's hour to 71326 message and data rates may apply US addresses only. Your monthly gift can truly make a massive impact.

[Ginny Urich]

Here we go. Welcome to the One. Okay. Welcome to the One. I'm going to leave that in because it's funny. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have just read a phenomenally good book. Phenomenal. I took notes after notes after notes. It is called Better than Real Life. The author, Dr. Richard Freed, is here. Welcome, Jenny.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Thank you so much. It's an honor to talk with you and your community. So thank you.

[Ginny Urich]

You are a psychologist and author and I. And so many other things. Colette. A national campaign. I mean, you have done all of these things. You have all of these relationships. And in fact, so many of the people that you talked about in this book, I've had the privilege of having conversations with. So Dr. Susan Lynn. And I mean, it was just person after person. I was like, I know them. I know them. Dr. Nicholas Carderis. So I love this book. I think every parent should read it. I've had on the woman from wait until 8th. I mean, just person after person. We are so aligned. I would love to kick it off with the changes. The dramatic. This is what you call them, dramatic changes in the problems of children and teens who come to your clinical practice. That you've seen over a period of time.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Sure, I am showing my age, but I have been in clinical practice for a little bit more than 25 years, and I've watched a dramatic and profound change in childhood. Like something's happened. And I think parents out there understand that something has happened. And we don't quite have our finger on it. And a lot of it has to do with this hidden Silicon Valley secret science of persuasive design that industry does its best to keep hidden behind the screen. And there's all these top neuroscientists working away back there. They don't want to show that. And I do my best to reveal it.

[Ginny Urich]

It's incredible. You wrote this? My clinical psychology practice in Antioch, California, is a daily parade of kids who turn away from family, school, and the outdoors to live their lives inside on digital screens. So here's what's interesting. I told you I've talked to so many of the people that you talked about in this book. I actually had not really heard. I've talked with a woman from Tristan Harris. I can't remember what their thing is called, but, you know, like, I've seen his documentary and the Social Dilemma. Yeah. And then he's got a. He's got a whole nonprofit. I talked to a woman from there. I mean, I have, you know, talked and read these people's books. Truly though, Richard, I had not really heard of the phrase persuasive design. And you talk about how this exploits our DNA. This is not about building, because this is what I think every parent thinks. This is what I thought. This is not about building consumer technologies that are simply more entertaining than real experiences. Instead, applied by psychologists and neuroscientists, persuasive design achieves its power by developing digital environments that users believe fulfill their base human drives. It is deception at the deepest DNA level. Tell us more.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Well, firstly, I will go talk to large groups of pediatricians and mental health professionals, and I'll say, who here knows what persuasive design is? And not a single hand goes up like, this is a truly hidden, secret science. Like, I go down and talk in Silicon Valley to probably some of the folks are what I would refer to as tech elite. And then they're. A few hands will go up like they're back behind the scenes. They really understand what's happening. But yes, this is a science that is designed to go. It kind of had me shake a little bit almost at sometimes when I was reading it, like, I didn't really know that much. About persuasive design back in 20, let's say 17, when I really started pulling on the strings of this. It is a hidden science. And then you hear what is going on, and then you see what's happening in your clinical practice, and you're like, that's why my kids. You know, that's why. Asking a girl to give up her smartphone and social media will quickly lead to her oftentimes saying, I'm going to cut, or I have cut on myself or I'm suicidal, or she'll end up in the hospital. I was just talking to a person the other day, like, we're going to invest in drywall. You don't know how many boys have put their hands through a wall when you ask them to step away from a video game. And there is a science that explains this stuff.

[Ginny Urich]

And this is persuasive design. Now, you talk about this BJ Fog, who appears to still be alive, and I had not heard of him. I've heard of Skinner. I think most people have heard of Skinner, but I have not heard of BJ Fogg. And there is this Fog behavior model. Can you talk us through it? It's like an equation.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yeah. If we're, you know, when we walk into an airport, when we walk into a restaurant, and kids and parents are on their devices a lot at the expense of one another. And when kids say, I don't want to go outside. I think if we're looking for one element of this really complicated science, but this is the one that really underpins so much of what is happening. And it's. And Dr. Fogg, who's not my biggest fan because I've raised concerns about what he's doing to childhood. And I don't feel like he's taking accountability whatsoever. I feel like he literally has run away from the science that he largely, I would say he's the key father of. But his behavior model is essentially going straight after our, let's say, kids, Stone Age brains. We have these Stone Age hunter gatherer brains. And his formula of B equals mat. You know, I'm kind of doing for myself, doing the Cliff Notes version, because I can't even pretend, you know, I'm a psychologist. I could not go work at Silicon Valley and pull this off. You need profound training. So. But this is the Cliff Notes version for me and perhaps for you and your listeners, but because, you know, you have to understand there's thousands of, like, neuroscientists behind pushing little AI buttons to make all this work. But the B that Silicon Valley wants is time on device.

[Ginny Urich]

That stands for behavior. Is B behavior?

[Dr. Richard Freed]

B is behavior.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Okay, so that's the key one. They'll call it engagement, but it's essentially time on device. When somebody was leaving Instagram or when they say like, what does Instagram want? The executives there, it's, they will refer to it as teen time spent. And what we need to realize is time on a screen is not time in childhood, it's not time and outdoors it is, it's a displacement. So that's B. And the way you make that happen is make sure you do M, A and T together simultaneously. And essentially that's inundating people with motivation and that's both. And that's like primal. Like Dr. Fogg will say, we're going to take these basic human instincts for reproduction or for social contact and we want Silicon Valley to use that to pull people on. Or for kids, for boys, Like a lot of that would be, you know, boys have, have needed to be aggressive and fight and take down game animals for all of time. So we're going to use all that for motivation. We're also going to make that part of. There's punishment in there. Fomo.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah, like social and like social comparison. Right. So yes, like that's a thing for girls, right? You're like trying to find your, you know, how do I measure up against this person or that person? So for the boys you're talking about this motivation to hunt and to, I mean it's, it's actually stealing their motivation to conquer, you know, to get the girl. And then for girls it's like this motivation to see how do I stack up. How many people like me, like girls have this motivation of being noticed. So social media is like feeding that.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yes. So that's M A is just a really key one. A stands for ability. And when we think of typically ability, we're like, oh, you need to have like really great ability. No, this is actually better known, as Dr. Fogg says, as simplicity. We want to make this as brain dead easy for you as possible. So, and that worked well when you were a hunter, gatherer and during times of scarcity, if you could run three antelope off of a cliff rather than try to chase one down all day and break your ankle, you're winning. If you could get tons of easy rewards. And that's what this is, motivation. That's the reward and a simplicity. We want to give you easy rewards. And the last one is T for trigger. We want to trigger you incessantly to access these easy rewards online for a boy rather than do the hard work of actually running outside or learning to throw a ball. I mean, it's not hard, but comparatively to just kids roll over in their bed or sit up in their gaming chair and click a button that tricks the human brain. And if you constantly trigger, you know, why is he on a screen all the time? Or why is she on a phone in the back room? It's so easy to do that, to gain, you know, the motivation is oftentimes put on a, like a, a slot machine schedule. It's, it's made essentially to be addictive. And then if you trigger people, and then eventually people develop their own internal triggers. And triggers are notifications and pings and, and so forth. But eventually, as Dr. Fogg says, people develop their own internal triggers. So that B equals mat underpins essentially, I would say all of, or nearly all of the consumer technologies that are pulling kids away. That formula, which goes right after our DNA. And there's other ones too, that go after our DNA, but that one explains so much of why kids are disappearing from outside and ending up on a screen.

[Ginny Urich]

You write in my practice now, you've been in practice for 25 years. I have never met a parent who knows a fog of the science of persuasive design. And yet this man has been working on this since the 1990s. He predicted someday computers would be designed to influence humans. And by 2010 was saying, the web is not about information, it's about influence. So when you're having these kids come in and you're talking to them, let's hit this motivation piece a little bit more. You wrote, boys give up on real life and preteen gamers will urinate on themselves rather than take the trouble to get up to use the bathroom. What are the long term ramifications of this? And how can parents prevent a child that's urinating on themselves because they don't want to leave their game?

[Dr. Richard Freed]

This is, I know, I live this, but to hear you say it is just so profound. And then you're right. Dr. Fogg, back in the heady days of persuasive design, back when he essentially was bragging about it on his website. His website declared what persuasive design is. It says machines. This is his Stanford website. He is a, he's probably a genius. He's a really smart person behind the scenes that has done what no one has done before. And he said, I'm going to invent it. But his website says machines designed to change humans and they use this powerful psychology. But like these machines that we hand kids, this smartphone, this video game player, it is designed to alter your kid's life. That formula of B equals mat. We're also going to use supernormal stimuli invented by Nicholas Tenbergen, who won the Nobel prize for understanding you can create artificial man made hyped up stimuli, things that alter human behavior. And because you're going after their DNA.

[Ginny Urich]

I loved your examples. You had really cool examples. It was like someone might put an Easter egg in a bird's nest and it was the super normal version of their egg, but it was a bigger one. It's like an Easter plastic Easter egg and the bird would try over and over again to sit on it. This happens with animals too. It's a trickery.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Exactly. And you can do that with humans too. And by creating this artificial supernormal stimulus of like. Because boys, to be able to procreate for essentially all of human history as a hunter gatherer, you need to demonstrate effectiveness. You need to be a really good hunter and fighter and you need to really be able to build shelter and sort of protect yourself. So these video games develop this hyped up supernormal stimuli where kids just roll out of bed. It's really easy and you just click away. To be a real world hunter or fighter, you need years of training and it's really dangerous and you can get killed in about a day. Like life is really hard, but we're going to make it brain dead easy and you don't have to move a muscle and you just click, click, click. And it's going right after your stone age genes. And to some extent way back in this boy's DNA. You're like, this is what I need to do to procreate. This is what I need to do to do what I'm supposed to be doing on this earth. So you know, if you're, if, if you're a real world soldier and people are shooting at you, you have to pee in your pants. But like, okay, so that's real world true hard stuff where you're fighting and boys get into that, they're tricked by industry and they get into that same mentality that I can't move from this artificial fake status filled fight and I'm just going to sit here and pee on myself.

[Ginny Urich]

Wow. You even had a quote from Fog about the video games. He said video games, better than anything else in our culture, deliver rewards to people, especially teenage boys. Teenage boys are, are wired to see, competency to master our world and get better at stuff. Video games, in dishing out rewards, can convey to people that their competency is growing. You can get better at something second by second. You talk about, they play these multiplayer games, they feel good, and in the long run, they're giving up on real life. And they're also not learning grit because none of this demands hard work. And you can just displace. It's easy to displace the hard work. It's easy to remove all of the frustrations and be in this fairy tale world.

[Unknown Speaker A]

This episode is brought to you by Better Help. You know, over the years, we've made some big strides in talking about mental health, but there's still work to do. A recent survey found that 26% of Americans avoid getting help because they're afraid of being judged. And that just breaks my heart because when someone is struggling and doesn't reach out, it doesn't just affect them. It touches their kids, their marriage, their work, everything. Mental health isn't just about major trauma. It's about learning how to set boundaries, how to cope in healthy ways, how to show up as the best version of yourself. That's something we all need, especially in the world we live in today. That's why I love what BetterHelp is doing. With over 30,000 licensed therapists and more than 10 years of experience, they're helping over 5 million people worldwide connect with support in a way that's easy, affordable, and completely online. And if it's not a great fit, you can switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.comsl1000hours to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp hlp.com 1000hours let's keep breaking the stigma together, okay? Can we just be honest for a second? Health insurance is a mess. I mean, since 2000, wages have gone up 54%. But insurance premiums, they're up 200%. That's four times faster. And even when you have coverage, one in five in network claims still get denied. What even is the point? So if you're out there without health insurance, I see you. Seriously, You've managed to dodge the premiums, the paperwork, the we regret to inform you letters. That's not lazy, that's savvy. But as a mom, I also know how fast things can go sideways. A car accident, a weird test result. One moment and suddenly you're buried in bills with no way out. That's why I want to tell you about crowd health. It's not insurance. It's something completely different. Crowd health is a community of health conscious people who help each other when it counts. No networks, no premiums, no fine print, just people supporting people. You've made it this far on your own. Now here's your off ramp before things go wrong. Get started today for just $99 per month for your first three months by using code [e-mail] Crowd health is not insurance. Learn more at joincrowdhealth.com that's joincrowdhealth.com and use code 1000hours. You know, one of the most grounding things in our busy modern world is being able to turn to Scripture. Not just for comfort, but for clarity. And that's why I am loving the NIV Application Bible. It's more than just a Bible. It's like having a personal guide by your side. With thousands of study notes pulled from the best selling NIV Application Commentary series. This Bible helps you not only understand what the scriptures mean in their original context, but how they apply right now in your life. Inside you'll find original meaning notes that unpack the historical and cultural context, application notes that connect those truths to your everyday questions for growth, that invite deeper reflection and beautiful features like people to know and character of God. Articles that help Scripture come alive. If you are someone who's looking to deepen your faith and live it more fully, this is a resource you'll keep coming back to. You can save an additional 10% on any NIV Application Bible and NIV Application Commentary resources by visiting faithgateway.com NIVAB and using promo code outside. That's faithgateway.com N I V A B and promo code outside for an extra 10% off.

[Ginny Urich]

So you wrote this? I thought this was so good. This was so good because everybody relates. Okay, you're walking through the airport, everyone's on their phone. You get on the airplane in every. I mean, you don't see hardly anybody with a book anymore. You know, you're walking through the halls of the school, everyone says everyone's on the phone. The lunchroom is quiet. And you wrote we should question how much of this is really by choice. What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Richard Freed]

If you really understood I mean, if you hear these persuasive designers, if you hear these extremely high level brain scientists, they will tell you my job is to take every single hobby or activity a person has and replace it with my video game. Or you can put social media, they're doing this on purpose. If you talk to. When game designers or people go to a conference and they're kind of in a room by themselves, they will literally talk about how their game. You know, we tell parents it's an entertainment vehicle for your kid and just a little bit of fun. No, no, no. In the conference they literally say, this is a Skinner box for kids, which is a behavioral conditioning chamber. If you've ever seen the little mouse or the pigeon go click, click, click, and the bell rings and the they go after the little pellet. Today's video games are in social media, are essentially a skinner box for kids. Everything that they do is under the minute by minute control of extremely high level brain scientists who are now able to sort of like push little buttons and say, AI, get to work on this kid. Like the world's biggest supercomputer that takes up a building and weighs tens of thousands of tons. Like, get to work on this kid.

[Ginny Urich]

Wow. Okay. So then you say it is unethical to suggest that kids should be mostly responsible for defending themselves against the Valley's creation of psychological manipulation methods specifically targeted at their instinctual vulnerabilities. Okay, so you're talking about like, whose fault is this? And then you start talking about the parents. The parents are saying, we're not emotionally equipped to deal with this. And you throw out this super interesting part, Richard, which I haven't really thought about too much, and talk about it. Sometimes I'm like, nobody's advertising the outdoors, but every single day there's 1 million things that are new that I could watch on a screen. But you wrote, and this is what's happening. Digital technologies never give up. They never stop trying to persuade. And people just get tired. They get tired of saying no, because no human can be as persistent as a machine. Computers don't get tired, discouraged, or frustrated. They don't need to eat or sleep. They can work around the clock in active efforts to persuade or wait and watch for the right moment to intervene. They have the advantage of scale. It's not a fair fight. Nobody's really talking about that part. They're like, we're up against something that never sleeps.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yeah. Again, all this information about persuasive design is not in popular culture. Pop culture sources about kids health oftentimes are funded by industry and oftentimes align with industry. And they won't talk about this stuff. They won't tell you the truth. And then so you do exactly what the pop culture sources say. You get your kids those devices and they say, you can control it. And then to a parent they say, I've lost control of my kid. My kid no longer wants to go outside. My kid no longer wants to do all this thing, all these things like, please, no one is talking about the power of this. And I was astonished by the power of this. Like all this is. I really had to go down deep in some rabbit holes to make sense of this. And I'm a psychologist by training. I wasn't trained about this stuff. No one told me about it. I had to go find it. And no parents. I don't expect any parent. It's impossible for a parent to understand what is happening. And it's the responsibility of a lot of those who are responsible for healthcare and schools and so forth, who do represent science to help parents out with this government, honestly, to like, Australia's recently stepped in and said no social media till you're 16. China doesn't allow. China watched its kids disappear, especially boys, to video games. And they have a national rule that kids can't play video games except for on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights between 8 and 9pm like they see what's happening. It's changing a generation. They're acting and so. Oh. But in the United States, it's just up to you, mom and dad.

[Ginny Urich]

Wow. And the tech is in schools. And I've shared this story before, Richard, and I'm sure you've heard so many stories like it, but I spoke at a local school district just a couple months ago and there was a time for Q and A at the end. And they brought me in, they brought me in to speak about getting outside and real world experiences. And the same school district was giving iPads to the kindergarteners. And this mom began to cry and she said, what am I supposed to do? My kindergarten son wants to play Minecraft on his iPad from the school. And he says all the other boys in class get to play Minecraft on the iPad. Like, why is Minecraft on the iPad from the school? Why? I mean, you talk about this in this book like it's just a whole rigamarole that the people who are benefiting off it, getting the tax dollars are the ones who are funding the studies. It's like what's going on with food and all the things.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yes. I think I'm hoping this is starting to change. I'm hoping, you know what, what parents have been sold is the next best thing. Your kid is going to thrive. It's a privilege for your kid to be on a, on a device. No, no, no, and no, as I talk about in my book, the schools where people go to that have resources unlike anything that, that I've ever seen in my life or just about anybody else's. But like I talk about Phillips Exeter, where, which is a school in New Hampshire. New Hampshire. I want to say New Hampshire because I, I'm, I love it. I, I lived in Boston, so I, I start talking like everyone wants to hear it.

[Ginny Urich]

I want to hear it.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

New Hampshire. So they, but that, that's Phillips Exeter. So like, you know, that's where Mark Zuckerberg went. And that is a school built around the harkness method, where 12 students sit around a wooden table and they talk.

[Ginny Urich]

Wow.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

There's limited technology. Sure, they have access to 3D printers or if you need to like find some high level computing thing, sure, they've got that. But the foundation of their school and what in many ways we need to understand is the luxury and actually what teaches kids the best is a small classroom size. You having access to a teacher. Bill Gates, who went to Lakeside School, also a school I can't afford to send my kids to, and he went there, he talks about this small class size inspired him. And Jenny, I love in your book until the Streetlights Come on, you know all this stuff, you know how the tech elite are. You knew what sort of made them who they are and it wasn't screens. So I love that about your book. Thank you. And you understand all so much of this stuff anyway. All of it anyway. But like, so just to see Bill Gates say, like, this is what inspired me, the small classroom size and these teachers and these relationships. It's not about sitting in front of a screen all day.

[Ginny Urich]

Right. And they're peddling their goods though to all of these other people and making so much money off of it. Okay, so then, then the next thing is AI. Now I have had a couple episodes about AI because I'm very interested as a parent. People sometimes get a little funny about it. They're like, why are you talking about that? But I feel like we missed the boat. We missed the boat on these screens. And AI is already here and there's already AI girlfriends and there's already AI chat bots and there's already AI that is being put into kids toys. It's already here. So like we have to be a little bit more out in front of it than we were with the iPhones. Here's what you say. You talk about deep neural networks and deep learning. I have had a couple weird things happen and these might Just be coincidence. But they're really weirding me out. I've had a couple times where I've thought, you know, I haven't seen that person. I've thought it. I haven't really seen that person on whatever in a while in Instagram. And then they come up. It's probably coincidence, but I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. What's going on with this AI? Like, are they in my brain? But. And that's probably way out. But what is the deep neural networks? And how does AI play into this? What should we be aware of?

[Dr. Richard Freed]

You're not old enough, or. I don't think you think your audience is old enough. But there's an old movie called this is Spinal Tap, which is about. It's a mockumentary about a band. And he just talks about, like, on his amplifier, he says, like, most people's amps only go up to 10, but ours go up to 11. That's what this does. AI turns everything up, turns persuasive design, much, much stronger. And then what you have with is just as you said, is deep neural networks. That is taking a technology like online videos. And it used to be that, oh, the algorithm would be like, oh, if you like cat videos, we'll send you more cat videos. That was like, okay, this got. This is going to get old. What we're going to do is we are going to build a technology that models the human brain with its billions of neurons and its trillions of connections. We are literally going to build our algorithm to duplicate your brain. And we're going to take. We're going to measure what you say. So when you come across that happenstance, like your brain came across that happenstance. But understand, on the other side of that screen is a computer that is modeling your brain. And it probably knows that that was about time in many ways, for that to potentially come around.

[Ginny Urich]

It was like, you know, I don't know, five years ago when it was like, maybe seven. I don't know where you would say something. You would say, I needed a new belt. And then you would get an ad for a belt. You said out loud, your phone is listening. But I. I've noticed it within the past maybe half a year where I was like, I was only thinking about that. I didn't actually say it out loud. And I have been super weirded out. I want to re read what you wrote. I believe AI bots will learn to become sociopathic in their efforts to pull children online by playing the long game. Start slowly and Build trust and once this is established, begin to shift kids connections away from the real world and into the virtual. Here's the part that I was like, oh, this is so freaky. Richie or Richard, do you ever. Did anybody ever call you Richie?

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ginny Urich]

You're like, no, I did not call me that.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

And a lot worse.

[Ginny Urich]

All right.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

No, I. Richie is good. It makes me feel young.

[Ginny Urich]

Okay, here's the thing you're talking about. This is the crazy part when AI starts to create the persuasive design, right?

[Dr. Richard Freed]

And Dr. Fogg, who is so prescient about this and knew where things were going and fathered this science, he said quite a long time ago, you know, there's going to come a day when computers are going to take, take this over because they are better able to measure. What they do is they measure millions of inputs of every little thing a kid has done since the beginning of time and that's registered online. And then AI sets to loose to make connections that no human could ever, ever come up with. AI will figure that out, right?

[Ginny Urich]

And now we're in this age of quantum computing. And so I've read about certain quantum computers that it would take like what it could take quantum computer a couple seconds, what it would take a normal computer. Like these computers that we're on now are already like sort of becoming obsolete. They seem so fast. But it says what would take a normal computer years to figure out. The quantum computer will figure it out in a millisecond or half a second. So all of these data points and I just talked to this man who was saying, you know, these little kids, they come into the office and they're watching a screen while they're getting their diaper changed. I mean, the inputs are starting, like you said, in infancy and it's able to remember all of them and pull them all together and then that is going to start to create even more persuasive design. This is a lot. So I really liked what you said about China. This is how my parents parented. They gave me a boundary. You're allowed to watch three cartoons. That's it, you know, or whatever it is. You're allowed to play video games from 8 to 9pm on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I mean, I actually think that those are very, very practical solutions to this problem. You wrote this. And I think this is so important because you're talking about the ethics. A lot of this book is about ethics. I don't hear anybody talking about the ethics really. Very, very rarely.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Because you can't do this to kids. Like we're so removed from. You know, I start the book off with the story in Finland of the Stone Age culture and how they took care of their. They found a kid that was buried in a. And swathed and like a feathered cloak or buried and down. Like this was a community struggling to survive, yet they loved their kid. So, you know, 8,000 years ago in Finland, if some group decided to move into that tribe and started to take your kids and make them less successful or make them less happy, what would happen to that group? Not good things. That at best case they'd be run off.

[Ginny Urich]

Right.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

So now in this supposed modern day culture, parents and the community are just supposed to accept this exploitation of kids that there's nothing we can do about it? No, don't be tricked by that. We need to get back to the basics of what it means to, to raise kids. If we can't take care of our kids, what can we do?

[Ginny Urich]

Oh, it's so good. You wrote, why hasn't there been a large scale rebellion? And part of it is because nobody knows totally what's going on. So when you're talking about the ethical things, you wrote, Silicone Valley will not stop unless they're compelled to. And that doesn't seem to be happening. And you wrote, nothing for children or teens should be scientifically and experimentally built to be predictably better than real life. What a statement. That's it right there. Nothing should be. And yet you had all of these quotes of kids that you've met that have come in through your practice that are saying things like, I don't ride my bike or scooter because I don't really want to go outside. Don't really like books or school either. The only thing I like is video games. Age 12. Another one from a mom talking about her daughter. She's just in her room on her phone all day. Sometimes she'll come out for dinner, but it's a fight. And then in five or ten minutes she's back on her phone. You talk about how this is stealing childhood. This is like a war on childhood.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

I feel like, yeah, it really is. And you know, when we put a person into an MRI machine and have them play video games, even these old fashioned video games, it triggers dopamine at the same level, which is a reward based neurotransmitter that drives us forward. You need it every day to focus, to do well in school. But like it triggers dopamine at the same level as an intravenous shot of Amphetamine. That's the old school crappy video game. Today we've kind of moved from pot like stimulation to crack like stimulation for video games. So I think that's just really dumping dopamine into kids for very little effort. And that's a really scary thing to do to childhood. You can't do that, just sit there, don't move and be remarkably stimulated down deep in your DNA that this is what you're supposed to be doing to be successful. So it's not surprising that, that so many parents are finding and I really like in your book again until the street lights come on, you talk about like no wonder like what we need to do to build success, to not have what's happening now, which is a generation of especially young men about girls are getting really depressed. It's really broken down a lot by gender and suicidal. And boys are struggling to go to college or let's say if they don't want to go to college to get a job and to move forward. This is conditioning our boys and girls to take tons of rewards but just by laying on your bed. And that is a scary thing to do to a child because so many parents expect like oh my kid magically turned 18. It's time for them to kind of grow up and no, that same kid will be living in your home. We don't really have basements so much in California. I grew up in Kansas, we had a basement but like that's where the boys are going to be down in the basement or in a back room here in California.

[Ginny Urich]

It's time to stop pretending that it's a mystery why this generation of children is leaving behind spending time with family, playing outside, engaging in school related tasks and a host of other health giving real world activities. Hidden forces are at work. This is by design. Oh, this book is so good. It is called Better than Real Life. Every parent to pick up a copy of it. It is incredibly important.

[Unknown Speaker A]

You know her, the one who always shows up, who gives endlessly. Whether it's your wife, your mom, your sister, or maybe it's you. Moms have this incredible ability to pour out love and energy day after day. But sometimes that energy runs low. And the truth is we can't keep giving from an empty well. That's where Javiti comes in. Giviti makes it easy for moms to take charge of their health without adding more to their plate with a simple at home blood draw. Measuring over 100 biomarkers, Giviti gives a full picture of her health from There, experts build a personalized plan to support her energy, nutrition, stress and more. She'll get targeted supplements like the Longevity Blend plus advanced therapies, all delivered to her door and updated every six months to meet her evolving needs. This Mother's Day, give the gift that says I see you. I care about your health too. Use code outside for 20% off your first three months of membership. Just visit goviti.com that's G O G E V I T I to learn more about how you can start optimizing your health without leaving home today. Location based restrictions apply. This episode is brought to you by a company I genuinely love so much. Active Skin Repair. As a mom of five and someone who spends a lot of time outside, bumps, scrapes and the occasional odd rash come with the territory. That's why I'm so grateful for Active Skin Repair, an all natural, non toxic solution that helps our skin do what it was made to do heal. Whether it's a skin knee, a bug bite, a rash, or just a little bit too much sun, this one product does it all. It mimics your body's natural healing process to soothe irritation, reduce inflammation and support recovery without any harsh chemicals. Safe for kids, safe for adults, and even safe for sensitive skin. And here's what makes me love it more. Active Skin Repair is a proud 1% for the planet member. That means 1% of every sale goes to grassroots organizations protecting wildlands and restoring marine ecosystems through partners like the Conservation alliance and ctrees. So if you're spending more time outdoors, and I hope you are, check them out. Visit activeskinrepair.com to learn more about Active Skin Repair and their commitment to 1% for the planet and use code 1000hours to save 20% on all active Skin Repair products. Let's heal ourselves and the planet together. Sometimes I catch myself staring at my kids and wondering what their futures will look like. And then bam. One of them yells they're starving. And just like that, I'm snapped right back into reality. But seriously, what will their futures look like if I'm not here? It's a hard question, but one we all need to consider. That's right. I want to tell you about Select Quote they make finding life insurance simple, fast and affordable. Select Quote is one of America's leading insurance brokers with nearly 40 years of experience helping over 2 million families find the right coverage in just 15 minutes. A licensed Select Quote agent can match you with a policy tailored to your family's needs and budget. And get this, some policies cost less than a dollar a day with no medical exam required for those in good health. So if life has felt too busy to think about insurance, or if you've been putting it off because of the cost, don't wait. Get the right life insurance for your family for less. @SelectQuote.com 1000 hours. Go to SelectQuote.com/1000 hours today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com 1000hours Select Quote. They shop, you save.

[Ginny Urich]

Even you talked about, you know, these kids are like, I don't want to go outside. It's too hot. It's too cold. I just want to be on my game. It's too rainy. Like, you're not developing any resilience. That's what you're talking about, though. B equals M a T. They're making it as easy as possible. And then the whole dopamine receptors are a mess. So this is a really, really important thing that every parent has to know about. You have to know about persuasive design. All right, Richard. I was so excited about this. I am a huge Neil Postman fan. Huge, huge. I mean, I've got all of his books, technopoly. I have the disappearance of Childhood. I have Amusing Ourselves to Death. I am so bummed that he has died. I like, if there's anyone I would want to talk to, it's him because he talked about how we were amusing ourselves to death in 1985, when there was hardly any kids programming. I've even tried to get a hold of his son Andrew. I'm like, how do I get a hold? I want to talk to this postman lineage. Because what would he say today that's.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

So amazing that you have that connection. And Ginny, you understand all this stuff. Maybe you say you didn't know persuasive. You understand persuasive design. Maybe you didn't have that word. You totally understand everything about it. And I think parents out there, even if they don't hear the term persuasive design, they know what these screens are doing. They know that there's something different about that screen today than the TV show that I watch.

[Ginny Urich]

Okay, then Full House or whatever. Yes.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yeah. Watch a show with your family. Watch a show with your sister. Okay, that's fine. You guys watch a movie together. That's entertainment. But it's not experimentally, scientifically designed to pull your kid away from the real world and using AI. But Neil Postman totally got it. What he really told us is that we're all expecting George orwell light control. Whether these Nazi jackbooted thugs come to you and hold a gun to you and say, you're doing this, or we're shooting you or sending you to watch this screen and you're going to go to jail. And. And instead, Neil Postman understood that, like, the way that best. The better way to gain control of a population and childhood is as Aldous Huxley talked about in Brave New World, which is inundate people with pleasure so much that they lose touch with reality. So that's why I have a chapter called Brave New Childhood. That's why I call out Neil Postman and say, yes, that's interesting. I would love to talk with him as well. You know, these people that see the future, like, that's a smart person.

[Ginny Urich]

Well, and that's what you're doing. You're, you know, you're taking up that torch and moving it forward. And there has to be someone who is extrapolating, I think, into the future to say, please beware. And one of the things that he talked about was that no technology is. And I can't remember the exact wording, but it was like, no technology is all that powerful if people know what's going on. That's one of the things he said, and it's right at the end. And I thought that was such a big thing, because that is the whole problem. Like, this whole book is like, you're like, nobody knows what is going on. I mean, you say it again and again and again that these parents come in and they're like, never heard of it? I have no idea. You know, I just thought I'd give my kid an Xbox. I had an Atari when I was growing up. What's the big deal? Neil Postman also said, it is inconceivable that a culture will forget it needs children. But we are halfway to forgetting that children need childhood.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Wow.

[Ginny Urich]

He says, those who insist on remembering shall perform a noble service.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

I remember that, like, noble service part. Like, let's. There are a few people who sort of are able to see behind the curtain, and they gain power. So, Ginny, I guess I'm again, so impressed. And then just to hear Bill Gates. Because it's a Microsoft Xbox, and to hear Bill Gates say, my kids really aren't using that stuff much or kind of at all. Like, to hear Bill Gates say that and Melinda, when they were together, saying, like, no, not really for my kids. And we're sending them to a school that emphasizes people, not machines. Like, okay, they're pointing the way forward. Steve Jobs, the same way. Do not be sold on this whole idea that the way of the future is devices and kids need to learn to do this stuff. As you say, Jenny, in your book, these tech elite, these tech wizards who invented this stuff didn't grow up with screens. Bill Gates came up with this stuff. He talked, he had a, an outdoor, outdoorsy childhood.

[Ginny Urich]

They were boy Scouts. They didn't touch a computer Till they were 13 years old. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, I mean, a whole lot of them. And so, yeah, I feel like it's so important to know those things. And I really think it's very important that people do read up about things like Huxley and Postman. We're missing so much, right? Because we're on screen so much. You talk about the amount of time kids are on screens, like eight hours, like, what the heck? And that doesn't even include texting. And so they're, they're certainly like not reading. We're not reading. We're missing this, these big pieces. But if you read about Hugsley, then you wrote it. People will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think. Oh, come on. That's like exactly what's happening.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urich]

Right now.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

I, I think that might be a postman or a Huxley quote. I'm not that. And I want to say, like, if thinking about helping boys study, like when I think I, they. I read Brave New World when I was in high school and I'm like, I have a boy hunter gatherer brain. I, you know, the career for me would be to be a professional athlete. I just, somebody forgot to give me size, speed and size, speed and talent. I'd love to be a football player, but I just don't have any size, speed or talent. So it's a small problem. In other words, I don't have any ability to do that. And I'm. Or a rock star or a race car driver. But like, so I wasn't like, why am I reading Brave New World? But I think, like, it stuck with me enough. Like, if I had a video game system growing up and got to be that hunter gatherer fighting without effort, I really probably don't think I would have, I'd be here today. I think I'd just like kind of be in a back room. That would have got me. I needed time to find myself and to be able to learn how to focus my hunter gatherer brain on school, which is actually quite important right now. We have a generation of kids, like, if you and I Visited a random or a typical college. We would go there and we'd count nearly 60% women and only 40% man. I would have been probably, you know, not everybody has to go to college. You can do a trade, but there's a lot of guys that, okay, I'm not going to college. But I'm also just, I'm just in my parents back room for when I'm 30. Like so yeah, I needed that space in my brain to find that. And I and all kids need that today to find themselves without this powerful science of persuasive design, determined to reorient their life towards a screen.

[Ginny Urich]

Right. The technologies that undo our capacity to think. Oh gosh, he was so right on. I think Huxley wrote that. But Postman talked, I mean everybody talked about it, Postman talked about it. And I just think everybody should pick up all of those books. They're very important. They're like philosophical, it's like about the philosophy and the ethics of technology that someone thought about even just in terms of television. And I think you're going to get people, if they read them, they'll get so much out of it. Talk to us about the money. Corporations use persuasive design to create better than real life technologies that generate enormous wealth for a few which causes terrible suffering for a generation of children. So you're talking about money and control.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yeah, please don't be. You're fed by pop culture sources. Look behind the screen. Those, the people who are dominate our pop culture discussion about screens are typically industry funded. And then if you actually look behind how they raise their kids, they raise their kids in the outdoors with very little screen time, focused on school, focused on family. Don't believe the messages that you're hearing. Look behind and see who's actually funding the messages that you are hearing. And you just see this small handful of people of what I call the tech elite who are at the top of industry, who are at the top of what I call the Silicon Valley propaganda machine, and who are at the top of health care. Say I'm protecting my own kids. I'm remarkably limiting their access to consumer technologies. But their organizations turn around and say that's where your kids should be. And that's in my mind. The word just comes to my mind. Evil. You can't do that.

[Ginny Urich]

Yes, evil, unethical. So you did a phenomenal job. Now I haven't read these things in other books, Richard, where you talk about like, so here's an example. Common Sense Media or the American Psychological association or The American Academy of Pediatrics and how they have these like, standards and then they change them and they're not science backed. They changed it to something that is not science backed and also not good for kids. So there's all these screwy things going on. I had no idea. You know, you hear Common Sense Media all the time. Like, that's great. I can get on, see if this book or that movie is appropriate for my kids. But what else is going on?

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yeah, Common Sense Media, they really, you know, I. My kids are a little bit older now, but when they were younger, I would look them up like, and they still do that. They rate movies and, you know, I don't think their ratings are that helpful, but you could see the content. We do want to find sources that just tell us the content. And Common Sense Media used to be really aligned with health. They used to talk about that stuff. In 2012, something happened. Being funded by millions of dollars from Mark Zuckerberg, being a lobbying organization to put technology into schools, taking millions from edtech companies. They changed their messaging, their old messaging. If you hear how the CEO and founder Jim Steyer raised his kids, he's saying, my kids aren't coming anywhere near this stuff. I strictly limit screen time. And then Common Sense Media comes out. It now says screen time is not really a problem. Social media is a really good thing for your kid. It's truly. This is really hard, I imagine, for parents to hear. But Common Sense Media is. I encourage them to. I know this is, again, really hard for some parents to hear, but if I really do my best to lay out the facts and show that they are a member of what I call the Silicon Valley propaganda machine, trying to. Again, this very duplicitous message, I match up Jim Steyer's message with, this is how I raise my kids. With Common Sense media saying, your kid. I'm throwing your kid in front of it. You can't do that.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah, we're all bought and paid for. And you're talking about that. There used to be screen time guidelines. Like the American Academy of Pediatrics gave screen time guidelines and then they got rid of them.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Yes. This. You can't do this. Like, I call it the Silicon Valley exception. Like dietary guidelines. Cannot. They're coming from the American Academy of Pediatrics. Cannot come from someone who's funded by McDonald's. But Dr. Megan Moreno, who's. Who's like, I believe the top person at the American Academy of Pediatrics who gives us screen time guidelines has been funded by Facebook. You can't do that. It's a Silicon Valley exception. Oh, social media corporations are different somehow or like that's this mythology. Like no, it's absolutely tragically unethical. And the American Academy of Pediatrics used to be the word and the science based guardian that parents could latch onto and now it is a industry aligned with Dr. Megan Moreno industry funded organization working I believe unethically. And what's remarkable is that's just a rogue small group within the American Academy of Pediatrics. The American Academy of Pediatrics is filled with lots of pediatricians who are concerned about kids screen time. There are, there's the science based group of the American Academy of Pediatrics who says kids screen time puts their children's health at risk. But no, unethically you have, and I believe this could get the American Academy of Pediatrics and ethical hot water. But like you have this small group saying screen time doesn't really matter. And we are aligning with Common sense Media who's funded by Mark Zuckerberg. You can't do this stuff. It's laughable. It's ridiculous. But it's true.

[Ginny Urich]

But it's true and it's happening. And if parents don't have a book like yours better than Real life, how are they supposed to know? How are they supposed to know? I mean if that those are the recommendations coming from sort of the highest positions about children and teens, how are parents supposed to know? So what a book. What a book. Richard. Better than Real Life. How Silicon Valleys see Secret Science of Persuasive Design is Stealing Childhood. You talk about how the typical US youth now spends an incredible 8 hours and 39 minutes each day using consumer entertainment non educationally and that does not include time spent texting. The habit forming technologies are like switching from marijuana to methamphetamines. This is so, so important for kids and for parents to know because these computers aren't sleeping and so we have to know what's going on. What a. What a book. It was phenomenal. I learned so much. It's super interesting. Like I said, I have all these notes and I'm so thankful that you came and spent your time with us today. We always end our show with the same question. What is a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

I'm going to say that. But I. Ginny, I have to say I'm putting you in the Neil Postman Aldous Huxley category because I consider you to be prescient Aldus of you saw this stuff a long time ago. Like you, you're you're well aware of this. A favorite memory of my, of me being outside in childhood. I, too was a Boy Scout in Kansas. And I remember going to bed at 9 o'clock and there was one of those arctic dips and it was 9 degrees below zero at 9 o'clock at night. And I'm like. And there were some kids that understandably had to like, go find the bus and sleep in that because kids did get frostbite. But somehow I made it through. And I think, like, I, like, that was kind of crazy. And I woke up and I'm like, all right, like, really cold. But like, I think that kind of grit, as you say. Yeah. You know, and like, made me feel like, okay, that's something that when life gets tough, I can go do that. I could. I. You know, so that, that's a special memory for me. Thank you for asking that, Richard.

[Ginny Urich]

This has been such an honor, such an honor. I was so looking forward to this. It's wonderful. Thank you for being here, Jenny.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

You're amazing. And thank you to you and your community.

[Dr. Edie Wadsworth]

Hi, dear one, I'm Dr. Edie Wadsworth, your new favorite Christian life coach, and I want to invite you to the House of Joy podcast. If you're a woman over 40 or the daughter of one who wants to build a positive mindset, healthier habits, and thriving relationships, this is the show for you. We talk about personal growth, faith resilience, and creating a life you're obsessed with. So if you're tired of feeling stuck and ready to step into more joy and purpose, come join us. Listen now, wherever you get your podcast.

[Trey Tucker]

Are you hungry for guidance about mindset, relationships, health, finances, career decisions, and dealing with your past? I'm Trey Tucker, licensed therapist and speaker and host of Rugged, a podcast where I help young men and women navigate life's challenges and find solutions to help them live lives of service and meaning. In this podcast, you'll learn mindset strategies to harness your thoughts and emotions in ways that help you achieve your goals. I bring a blend of straight talk and empathy, and I'm open to addressing anytime topic and treating it and the people connected to it with respect and curiosity. Come join us. We have a space for you. Search for Rugged with Trey Tucker wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to hit the follow button. So new weekly episodes will be delivered straight to your personal podcast feed. My hope is that this podcast will leave you feeling encouraged and empowered to take charge of your life and close the gap between who you are and.

[Dr. Richard Freed]

Who you want to be?