1KHO 480: The Skills Kids Actually Need to Navigate Life | David Thomas and Sissy Goff, Raising Boys & Girls

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 480: The Skills Kids Actually Need to Navigate Life | David Thomas and Sissy Goff, Raising Boys & Girls
Release Date: May 14, 2025
Hosts: Jenny Urich, David Thomas, and Cindy Goff

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Introduction to Guests and Their Work

The episode features David Thomas and Cindy Goff from Daystar Counseling Services, authors of the bestselling book "Are My Kids on Track?" They discuss their impactful work in childhood development, focusing on emotional, social, and spiritual milestones essential for navigating life.

The Daystar Dogs Series

David and Cindy introduce their new series, Daystar Dogs, designed for younger children aged 4 to 7. These books aim to teach essential life skills through engaging stories featuring lovable dogs.

• Notable Quote:
  David Thomas [04:17]: "We think about them as great tools for teaching kids independence and responsibility."

Emotional and Social Milestones for Children

The conversation delves into the importance of emotional and social milestones in child development. Cindy emphasizes the role of pets in building relational skills and emotional awareness.

• Notable Quote:
  Cindy Goff [04:31]: "Pets build relational skills. They also build confidence and a lot of love to the life of your son or daughter."

Reciprocity in Relationships

David and Cindy explore the concept of reciprocity—the back-and-forth nature of healthy relationships. They discuss practical methods to teach children the importance of listening and balanced communication.

• Notable Quote:
  Cindy Goff [07:28]: "Understanding every healthy relationship is a two-way street. And what does it look like for me to build awareness?"

Courage and Resilience in Children

The discussion highlights the critical skills of courage and resilience. Cindy shares personal anecdotes illustrating how these traits can be nurtured from a young age, helping children handle anxiety and fear.

• Notable Quote:
  Cindy Goff [25:07]: "You can do hard things because of how much I love you and how much God loves you, too."

Parenting Skills and Emotional Literacy

Cindy and David emphasize the necessity for parents to develop their own emotional literacy to effectively support their children. They provide strategies for parents to manage their emotions and model healthy behaviors.

• Notable Quote:
  David Thomas [35:16]: "Anxiety travels down the leash, but being calm is contagious too."

The Role of Play in Child Development

Play is identified as a foundational element for emotional and social growth. The hosts discuss how outdoor play fosters creativity, empathy, and spiritual awareness in children.

• Notable Quote:
  David Thomas [41:09]: "Play is not only foundational to kids developing emotionally and socially, but also invites us into experiencing creation."

Personal Stories and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, David and Cindy share heartfelt personal stories that illustrate the practical application of their teachings. These narratives underscore the real-world impact of their methods on children's lives.

• Notable Quote:
  Cindy Goff [26:25]: "I was watching little Henry's face and he was getting more and more afraid with every turn going down the tunnel."

Conclusion and Future Work

As the episode wraps up, David and Cindy reflect on their long-standing friendship and collaborative efforts. They hint at future projects, including upcoming titles in the Daystar Dogs series that will continue to address essential life skills for children.

• Notable Quote:
  David Thomas [62:16]: "The Daystar Dogs books are incredible, and I highly recommend having your summer reading be 'Are My Kids on Track?' It will change your life."

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Key Takeaways

• Pets Enhance Development: Incorporating pets into a child's life can significantly bolster emotional and social skills.
• Reciprocity is Fundamental: Teaching children to engage in balanced, reciprocal relationships fosters better communication and empathy.
• Emotional Literacy Starts at Home: Parents must cultivate their own emotional intelligence to effectively guide their children.
• Play is Essential: Outdoor and imaginative play are crucial for holistic child development, including spiritual growth.
• Building Resilience Early: Instilling courage and resilience from a young age prepares children to face life's challenges confidently.

Recommendations

• Book Reading: Parents are encouraged to incorporate the Daystar Dogs series and "Are My Kids on Track?" into their summer reading plans to support their children's emotional and social development.
• Parental Involvement: Actively practicing and modeling emotional literacy and reciprocity in daily interactions can significantly impact a child's ability to navigate relationships and challenges.

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This episode provides invaluable insights into the skills children need to navigate life effectively, emphasizing the roles of pets, play, and parental emotional literacy. David Thomas and Cindy Goff offer practical tools and heartfelt stories that resonate with parents seeking to foster well-rounded, resilient children.

Transcript

[Jenny Urich]

Hey there friend.

[David Thomas]

It is so good to hang out with you today.

[Jenny Urich]

Before we dive in today's topic, I want to share something exciting you may have heard or you may not have heard, but my brand new book, Homeschooling.

[David Thomas]

You'Re Doing It Right Just by Doing.

[Jenny Urich]

It is coming out on May 20th.

[David Thomas]

In less than a week and I am beyond excited.

[Jenny Urich]

If you have been enjoying the podcast or anything I've created, it would mean.

[David Thomas]

A lot to me if you would pre order a copy or grab it when it's out.

[Jenny Urich]

Maybe even snag an extra copy or two for a friend or your homeschool co op. These early purchases make a huge difference.

[Cindy Goff]

In how well a book does.

[David Thomas]

They help help spread the word about.

[Jenny Urich]

Homeschooling and show my publisher that our community is strong, which helps keep me writing even more for you all.

[David Thomas]

Also, reviews are like gold. If you get the book, please let.

[Jenny Urich]

Me know what you think by leaving.

[David Thomas]

A quick review or leaving a review.

[Jenny Urich]

On until the street lights come on. And if you haven't reviewed the podcast.

[Cindy Goff]

Yet, I'd love to hear your feedback there too.

[David Thomas]

I read everyone and they truly make my day. Unless they're awful and I guess whether they're good or bad, more reviews help.

[Jenny Urich]

Other families find the podcast. No pressure, but thank you so so if you do.

[David Thomas]

All right, thanks for letting me share. And now on with the show.

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[David Thomas]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and boy do I have a treat for you today because both David Thomas and Cindy Goff from daystar. How do you say it? Daystar Counseling Services, daystar, the wonderful Daystar in Tennessee and they have an amazing podcast and they've sold over half a books. They're here. Welcome to the both of you.

[Cindy Goff]

Jenny, what a delight to be with you.

[David Thomas]

What a delight. We got to be with you in person in our city just a few days ago and we lost our minds.

Oh, it was so fun. So we went to the red carpet premiere of this wonderful new movie from Angel Studios about the life of Jesus. It's called the King of Kings. Go see it with your kids. It is wonderful.

[Cindy Goff]

It is wonderful.

[David Thomas]

Yes, Wonderful.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

They spent 10 years on that. We got to go to the premiere, and then there was a party.

[Cindy Goff]

We got to meet the voice of Winnie the Pooh. That was a life changing moment for me.

[David Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. And our kids met Kristin Chenoweth, and she's been in so many different things. It was just an absolute. What a treat.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

Those are the times when you're like, wow, life is really cool. Has these really cool parts to it. So it's wonderful to see you here. And I've been down today, star. And that was a really huge treat, too. We had lunch together there. And one of the things that you notice right off the bat is that there are a lot of dogs. A lot of dogs. I mean, it's one of the first things you notice. You notice that it has a really homey ambiance. There's dollhouses everywhere. There's a kitchen. It is. It's a home. You know, you walk up. It was. When we came, it was decorated for fall. There's pumpkin stacks now. It was really hot, so it didn't feel like fall, but it was decor.

[Cindy Goff]

Welcome to Nashville.

[David Thomas]

And it was just really homey. And there was a lot of dogs. And you have this new book series coming out. The main characters are these dogs. And you have these books. They're meant for younger children. And they are wonderful. Two are coming out in May. Lucy learns to be brave, a lesson in courage. And Owen learns he has what it takes, a lesson in resilience. Those come out this May and then two more that are coming out in November. So I was just curious about the pets. I mean, you talk about the pets in Are my kids on track. You talk about how the pets, they can. They have a little bit of an intuition there. They can sense, you know, the girl that sad, the boy that's struggling. Can you just talk about where the dogs. Always part of the picture?

[Cindy Goff]

No, it kind of happened by accident, which is interesting. We have six. I need to count officially. David, is it six or seven dogs on staff right now?

[David Thomas]

Well, why don't we say five and a half? Because the verdict still out on whether my dog is going to graduate from therapy dog school or not. I call it five and a half.

True.

[Cindy Goff]

Okay, that's good. Well, so I. It was my first two years at daystar, so way back before we had all this beautiful research about the difference dogs can make, even biochemically, I mean, there's so many good things that they do for us in terms of cortisol, the stress hormone that they regulate, that they lower our blood pressure. It's fascinating. They can prevent or slow down cognitive decline. It's amazing. So anyway, I, I think I had some people doing work at my house and so I asked Melissa, who you have met, our founding director of daystar, if I could bring my dog at the time, Noel, to the office that day. And I did. And you know, the worst thing that happens in a parent's world, the worst thing that happens in a therapist's world, is when a child says, I want to take my own life. And so that day I was meeting with, I think she was 14 and she said those words. And so I needed to step out of the room and go call her mom and talk with her mom about it and take her to the hospital. And when I did, I left Noel in there with her so she wouldn't have to be alone. Walked out, walked back in 10 minutes later and Noel was in her lap, licking her tears. And I relayed the story later to Melissa and she said, can you bring Noel every day? And that was the beginning of us having these amazing daystar dogs. And I can't count the amount of times, I mean, yesterday I was sitting on the floor with a 12 year old girl in my office and she was so nervous to be there and petting my dog the whole time. And it changed the game for her, it changed her experience. And they have this amazing ability to do that and to innately, like you said, the intuition. They know what we need, know when we need them to be closer, know when we need to play, when we need to laugh, all of those things.

[David Thomas]

Ah. And so you have the daystar dogs and this is the series of books that are coming out this year. Yes, I want to talk about the books. We're going to talk about another book. You have, you have a lot of books, sold over half a million copies, but this is one by both of you as well as Melissa. It's called Are My Kids on Track? Which is a question that every parent asks themselves. And it starts really young when you go in for those, well, child visits. And they're like, your kids should be doing all of these things. But this is about emotional, social and spiritual milestones. It's a fantastic book. And in there you talk about the pets. I just wanted to read this. I thought this was so good. Pets build relational skills. They also build confidence and a lot of love to the life of your son or daughter. They give tremendous opportunity to care and be cared for in a way that truly does build awareness and ripples over into the lives of others. So I never read anything about that in any other parenting book. The Power of Pets. And so you have this Day Star Dogs series. So David, can you talk about, I mean, this is meant for younger kids ages 4 to 7. Why that young?

Yes. We had the opportunity, Jenny, several years ago to write some workbooks for elementary age kids. This he has an amazing one called Braver, Strong or Smarter. Did I say that right, Sissy?

[Cindy Goff]

You did.

[David Thomas]

All of a sudden I thought, did I make those words up? And then I have a workbook for elementary age boys called Strong and Smart. And we love the idea of equipping elementary, early middle school age kids with these important skills. But then begin thinking, how could we be helping kids even younger? What about toddlers? What about preschool age kids? And that's really where the idea for these books came about. In addition to Cissy's great story of just knowing, we have witnessed so much ev evidence of where these dogs teach so much to kids and to us and how it brings about change and how much more open I think kids are to learning new skills. Jenny, if I had a quarter for every time I had been in the office with a young boy who as is true with a lot of elementary age boys, I think in preschool age boys they tend to stand too close, talk too loud, they struggle with volume, space, proximity, and how my dogs have been great teaching tools because I own have owned a series of Labrador retrievers and they inevitably stand too close and lick too long and get in your personal space and so we can talk about what's it like when you've asked Owen to stop licking and he keeps licking. What's it like when you want him to move back a little bit and he just keeps getting closer? So they're great in so many ways. We think about them as great tools for teaching kids independence and responsibility. And they certainly are. But there are a range of other things that we have witnessed that they teach kids and the stories we've heard over the years of how many kids talk to their dogs when they're struggling, when they feel lonely, when they feel overwhelmed. And so it's fascinating to me the benefits, and I would only last say that in Owen's book I tell a story of he and I volunteered for three years at our local children's hospital and we were on the oncology hematology unit, where many kids have been newly diagnosed with cancer. And we were invited to be a part of a study that took place with several children's hospitals across the country where they were trying to identify the health benefits of kids interacting with dogs in hospital settings so that more children's hospitals could have them as a part of the work. And, gee, I mean, it was overwhelming to read, as Cissy was reporting all the scientific evidence. And what was interesting was they would swab the child and the dog before we started our appointment. You know, they would take saliva on a swab. And what they discovered and what science has continued to confirm is that when kids pet dogs, their oxytocin levels increase, which is the nurturing hormone, and it increases in dogs when kids pet them. And so it's like we're just all winning by being in the company of dogs. Like, everybody's experiencing good benefits. And so that was so much the mission for us of using these dogs as ways to teach kids new skills, and how could we get a lot of benefit.

I just love it. And it's just called the Daystar Dogs. I mean, what an amazing name for a series of children's books. I was curious about the topics. So there's four topics coming out this year, and I'm sure in time, I mean, there could be so many, we hope. Yes, but you started off with Courage, Resilience, Self control will be out in November. And jealousy. Was it hard to narrow down to those first four?

[Cindy Goff]

I feel like they came pretty quick, don't you think, David?

[David Thomas]

I do.

[Cindy Goff]

I mean, when we thought about those four dogs in particular and the needs that we're seeing so much, and we try to layer in as many counseling tools as we can, too. So, I mean, everything we know about for kids, that early intervention makes such a difference. And so we. We're trying to do that, really, from an emotional and spiritual standpoint. I mean, it's speaking to both and social, really.

[David Thomas]

It was interesting to me what four topics you picked out. So I really get, out of all of the books that I've read of yours, the excitement of the training ground. I think that parenting can seem very overwhelming. But when I read what you have written from both of you, I read both of your books. You know, this is. When you wrote together, it's like you.

[Cindy Goff]

Have read 4 trillion books. So it is a compliment. Anything you pull out of.

[David Thomas]

Indeed.

I love yours. And I. It makes me. When I close it at the end, I'm like, it's a reminder that this is A training ground, but also exciting. You do a really good job of not making it feel overwhelming or burdensome. It's like, oh, oh, I get to train my kids about that. Oh, well, I'm going to try that. And oh, I get to grow in the process. So one of the things that you talked about in this book are my kids on track. I thought this was good. Some days I wish grownups were required. I was like, okay, some days I wish grownups are required to demonstrate two or three skills before getting their marriage license or birth certificate for their child. I think, okay, that's good. I mean, you always sort of preface it that we have to do our own emotional work if we expect our kids to do emotional work. Can you talk about just from what you've seen, you've had a lot of people come through. What's a skill or two that would really behoove a parent to have?

Oh, great question.

[Cindy Goff]

Wow, that was a great question.

[David Thomas]

And you know, I would to hearing you extract that content say, it is kind of fascinating when you think about how much is required to get a driver's license or how much effort is involved in getting a passport, but anybody can take a baby home from a hospital. It's just overwhelming to think about how easy that process is.

[Cindy Goff]

Just have to be able to get the car in the car seat. That's right, car seat in the car.

[David Thomas]

Exactly. And these foundational relationships that are what form and shape us as human beings and how. Jenny, I so appreciated what you said a few minutes ago. It's the highest compliment for you to say that the content feels accessible and that we put these practical tools in because I think every one of us has read a nonfiction work that we think, oh, I love that idea. How in the world do I implement that? And sissy and I feel so passionate about making sure that parents could feel a strong sense of. I have some really practical, concrete things I could do. And it's why even in these children's books, we're putting a concrete tool in each of those so that this skill development that you identified feels manageable. And so I would say to your question, the first one that comes to mind for me is one of the social milestones we talk about in Are My Kids on Track? Is reciprocity, which is just the back and forth of relationship. You know, understanding every healthy relationship is a two way street. And we both make contributions and we both have faults and we both have strengths and we both have struggles. And what does it look like for me to build awareness which is one of the other social milestones. So that within the give and take and back and forth of relationship, I'm remembering just even in conversation that listening is every bit as important as talking. Sometimes I'd argue even more important. We've all been in conversation or relationship with an adult who didn't get the listening part down. They do a lot of talking at people or talking over people, but not talking with people, which involves listening. And one of the ways we teach that skill set to kids who struggle in our office is he keeps a tennis ball nearby. I have a little nerve football. And we will throw that back and forth with kids and try to get down the rhythm and pacing of how long should I be talking about a subject that I'm interested in before I pass the ball and ask the other person about something they're interested in? How do I learn to ask open ended questions so that I can carry a conversation forward? And again, how many adults we know who didn't get some of those mechanics down on the front side that make relationships like marriage and co worker relationships and friendships all the more complicated because they don't have that foundation in play?

I wouldn't have expected that that's what you were going to say. It's really interesting because relationships, they carry you through and this is a foundational thing about relationships. One of the things that you wrote in this book is listening. This I think is really counterintuitive. It made me stop in my tracks. Listening is what makes us interesting people. I don't think anybody would think that what makes me interesting. Well, you know, that I can have this skill and I can do this thing and I've got this fashion. Isn't that what makes me interesting? You are listening is what makes interesting people.

[Cindy Goff]

It's certainly where we learn and grow.

[David Thomas]

And I think too it's where we honor the dignity in other people. You know, this acknowledgment that every person is someone who is created by God and therefore they have a story and I have something I could learn from their story and their life. And so what would it look like for me to listen and be curious in a way to just honor the inherent goodness and who they are as people. And I think we all three would argue that that's become a harder thing to do in this moment in our world than ever before? Just listening and learning.

[Cindy Goff]

It's so good, David.

Sometimes I catch myself staring at my kids and wondering what their futures will look like. And then bam, one of them yells, they're starving and just like that, I'm snapped right back into reality. But seriously, what will their futures look like if I'm not here? It's a hard question, but one we all need to consider.

[David Thomas]

That's right.

[Cindy Goff]

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[David Thomas]

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[David Thomas]

One of the things that you had said, Cissy, which I thought was so interesting, was you were talking about. So in this book, and I love it, you do with all your things. Your podcast is called Raising Boys and Girls. And in this book in particular, are my kids on track? You go through these different milestones, and David primarily is talking to the boys and Cissy is primarily talking to the girls. And how do these things show up differently? And these are things we're teaching our kids, too. I mean, there's differences in the way that girls hear and smell than boys. And so all of this stuff, like in our home, I mean, I can smell all of it. I can smell all the things. But that's so that you don't kill your babies. You know, I mean, like, it's. It's meant that way. Right. So there's these differences and I love that you go through that. So, David, you were talking about, with the reciprocity, you were talking about having boys have some questions, like have a couple questions in your back pocket that you're ready to ask. I thought that was a great idea. Sissy, you talked about how you can't be too much. Like, when you're talking about reciprocity, there's also the other side of it where you have to wait until that person texts you back. Yes, this is what I'm talking about with a training ground. Yeah. Because you're reminded then as a parent, oh, I should be explicitly teaching that. So could you talk about that part of reciprocity how sometimes girls can almost appear desperate if they're not waiting for that ping pong back and forth.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes. It's funny because when we first wrote that chapter, I think David thought more conversationally reciprocity and I thought more time reciprocity. Because I do see both. I mean, I certainly see girls who wait for others to approach them, but I often will see girls thinking about tennis back and forth, who are like a ball machine. Just keep throwing the ball and throwing the ball and throwing the ball, inviting someone to get together with them or texting and texting and texting. I had a friend one time who said you should never double text. And I thought, well, that's super practical and insightful. And I think we know a lot of girls who quadruple text of like, I'm going to ask and I'm going to ask because that's so long. And we do, girls do, women do, all of us do, really. But I think girls define themselves against this backdrop of relationship. And so it's easy with all that excitement and exuberance and longing to end up inadvertently being too much and so to say, hey, you know what, we invited them over last time, let's wait and let them invite you back and let's pick somebody else maybe you haven't spent as much time with lately. And so we're teaching them that back and forth and forth and that pacing of relationship, which feels really important for girls. I went to a seminar a long time ago called Frenemies, which feels important when you're thinking about the world of girls. And one of the things she said is girls place best friend expectations on acquaintances. And I think there's that sense of we don't know the pacing and we become desperate. And desperate is not as attractive, sadly. And obviously I don't mean physically attractive, but I just mean I think it. Kids can dismiss someone who looks desperate and so helping them learn that sense of what it looks like to gradually develop relationships, which I think is more challenging than it has ever been in a world that's so technology driven. We don't know that natural pacing. And so what does it look like to wade in gradually to the waters of friendship and relationship in a way that's healthy and appropriate? I think it's never been more important to talk about that with girls.

[David Thomas]

Wouldn't this be a wonderful thing? Like you invest in yourself with this book, are my kids on track, all of these different milestones. And then you invest in these books for the kids, the day star dogs. And you're both learning at the same time. You wrote, trying too hard is a turnoff. It somehow gives the recipient power. And that power can create disdain. It's highly important for us to help girls who desperately long for a relationship not to look desperate. That is so, so practical. It's so practical. Kindness can look like desperation. Real relationships are always reciprocal. So, so interesting how you take both paths of that for the boy, for the girl, obviously there can be some cross over there, but it's so helpful. Let's talk about one of the topics that goes along with the kids book, Lucy Learns to be Brave, A Lesson in Courage. So courage is something that you're talking about a lot. And in are my kids on track? There's a lot about how the parents are sort of paving the way and they're not allowing for kids to experience these different types of situations and to a degree that can hold them back. So you call them pavers.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

Can you elaborate on that?

[Cindy Goff]

Yes. That whole adage about my job isn't to prepare the road for my child, but to prepare my child for the road a paver parent is setting up, creating this smooth, easy road for their kids and we are not teaching them the skills in that that are required to navigate life and all the things that we know that life brings. And so yes, that Lucy book, I talk so much about courage because we're seeing, you know, more anxiety than we've ever seen in kids. One in four kids, the average age of onset used to be eight. We're seeing it drop to six with signs as young as four and five. And so we can't start early enough with some important messages for kids of you can do hard things and you can do hard things because you're loved and when we can communicate those truths. And I think one of the things, one of the statements I make in the book came from my own experience with my oldest nephew Henry, who you got to meet, which is so fun at the movie. And Jenny, we were at Disney for the first time. We took him for the first time to Disney and he was 3. And I just didn't think through how scary Disney really can be for a three year old. And we were going on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride and you know, have you been there and done that?

[David Thomas]

I haven't been on the ride. I get motion sick. So. Okay, I have been there though.

[Cindy Goff]

Well, you go down these tunnels and every turn of the tunnel it gets a little bit darker. And I was watching little Henry's face and he was getting more and more afraid with every turn of going down the tunnel. And so I got down on Henry's level and said, henry, a little bit scared, A whole lot of fun. A little bit scared, a whole lot of fun. And that became what we said all over Disney. And it has become a mantra in our family that we say that over and over. And I think on the flip side of that, as you're talking about paver parents, you know, we have this little summer retreat program called Hopetown, and it is at most seven days long. And I could immediately recount for you multiple parents dropping off their kids, sobbing. So rather than a little bit scared, a whole lot of fun, this camp experience is so distressing that you might not just be nervous, but it's making me fall apart. I'm so scared for what the experience is going to be like for you is what the child is getting in that moment, not what the parent is intending to. They're just nervous and sad and will miss their kids. And to your great point of us doing our own work, we've got to be able to say, a little bit scared, a whole lot of fun. We're both scared, but you're gonna do awesome. And I'm so excited for you. And that's really the message in some ways to both books. I mean, it's, you can do hard things. You've got what it takes. We believe in you, and you're capable. And in Lucy, all of that is encapsulated in. And you can do hard things. Things because of how much I love you and how much God loves you, too.

[David Thomas]

This is a really different time.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

I mean, kids are not doing much, and it's showing up. I talked to this woman who runs a program called Timbernook, where the kids are allowed to have a long recess. I mean, quite a long recess within their school day. And she was saying how she also taught a middle school class. She was like, what's everybody doing this week? And they were like, nothing. We're hanging out in our rooms. We're going to be on our phones. And she was like, I mean, is anybody getting together? And they were like, nope. She was like, well, why not? Well, we're scared to call. We're scared to ask. And I think even the small things that have changed where you used to have to be okay to call someone's home and say, hello, you know, Mr. Thomas, is your size whatever. Yes, this is so and so. So what. What types of things are you having families do kids do parents do to help increase a Little bit of that bravery.

Jenny, I love even the story you just told, I think is evidence of something we talk a lot about, which is healthy risk. And it's risky to pick up the phone and call a friend because they might say no. Or for the three of us, we remember knocking on doors and saying, Mr. Yates, can Jimmy play tonight? And they might say, nobody, we got this going on. But how helpful the exchange and the practice was. And we are seeing greater evidence than any other time in three decades of doing this work of where kids are moving away from risk, not toward risk, and where I think parents are in their own fear many times not supporting kids experiencing risk. And I tell a funny story in the Owen book about bravery because here I'd gone through all of this training with this dog, which is. Takes a long time to train a dog to be a therapy dog. It's a lengthy, expensive process. And on day one of being at the children's hospital, we're walking down the hallway and Owen is encountering all of these doctors and nurses with white coats and they're pushing machinery up and down the hallways and there are a lot of sounds going off. And it overwhelmed him to the point that he was afraid to walk into one of the rooms. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my goodness, I spent all this time and money and he won't even go in the room. And so I picked this 65 pound dog up and carried him into the room because what I knew would happen would be that he would miss the magic of being with this brave little boy who was so excited to pet him and interact with him. And he wanted to be with him. Owen wanted desperately to be with him, but he was struggling to take that risk of just moving into all these sounds and unfamiliar spaces. And we're seeing a lot of evidence of where that's happening with kids, whether it's signing up for a new activity or a new sports team or. I've commented before that I have never in three decades of doing this work seen as many adolescent boys who are not interested, not willing to get their driver's license, who are not interested, not willing to ask a girl to a homecoming dance, who are not willing, not interested in taking the act which is necessary to apply to college. Like all of these risks that I think can start small on the front side of development and get bigger over time that you know, to the example in the book are going to limit really amazing opportunities. That's not to say college is the end all be all for every kid. But I'm so sad for a kid not to try simply because they were too overwhelmed by the idea of taking the act. So they just closed that door of opportunity or the independence that all three of us know we develop in the resilience in driving and having our first fender bender and all the things that happen through that experience. That healthy risk feels so necessary. And I don't think there is a person in this world who champions that more than you, Jenny.

[Cindy Goff]

Like, amen.

[David Thomas]

Everything you are about and why we. One of the many reasons we love what you're doing and why we can't turn enough people in your direction.

Thank you. We're part of the same podcast network, which is like a thrill of my life. We're all part of that sounds fun, which is so wonderful. I talked to Dr. Nicholas Carderis, who wrote Glow Kids and Digital Madness, some of my favorite books about screens and how they affect kids. And he said that they're seeing a lot of adolescent and post adolescent. So, you know, heading into those college age young men, he said they're uninterested and uninteresting. Wow. Yeah, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. Like how do you make it in life if you're both uninterested and uninteresting? And he works with addiction, so pornography addiction in video game addiction, social media addiction, all of these different screen addictions play. And you talk about screens and emotional literacy in your book Are my Kids on Track? How do we deal with this? So I just talked to this man, Ethan Cross. He's here in Michigan with us. He's at the University of Michigan. He has a whole lab about emotions. And he just came out with a book called Shift and it's about dealing with your emotions. And he says emotions are contagious. Like wildfire fire. Within seconds, your emotions are contagious. So one of the things I think that's happening is that the kids are trepidatious, they're nervous to take these risks. No one's hanging out on the weekend, so it's not part of the common culture. And so they're trepidatious or nervous or they've got some anxiety and emotions are contagious. And I've been with my kids where I'm starting to take on their emotions. And yes, because you're kind of like, well, why wouldn't the parent just say, call your friend, have somebody over. But you do you start to feel that too? So can you talk about the emotional literacy of the parent? Like, what Are some things that the parent can do to be on maybe a little bit firmer foundation so they can weather the anxieties of their children.

[Cindy Goff]

One of my favorite statements in the therapy world is if it's hysterical, it's historical. And to your point, Jenny, as you're telling that story, and why doesn't the parent just say, call your friend? My guess is that child's in seventh grade and when that mother or that father was in seventh grade, they put themselves out there and felt a whole lot of rejection. And so now the cost of being rejected feels more significant than the risk of putting themselves out there. And I think as we keep going back, I mean, it is the importance of doing our own work so that we can get out of the way and get whatever of our unprocessed emotions are out of the way that's hindering them from taking healthy, age appropriate risks.

[David Thomas]

I was thinking too, Jenny, as you were asking that question, even thinking back to the experience of training Owen, who I wrote the book about, when we finished the training, right before we were ready to start visits, I will never forget the instructor saying, okay, as you're thinking on all the things you've learned, maybe the single most important thing you could remember, and we're all like leaning in, okay, of the four dozen things we've learned, which one's the most important, he said, is that anxiety travels down the leash. I will never forget him saying that anxiety travels down the leash, which was, you know, his way of reminding us, like, whatever's going on with you, your dog is going to pick up on that. And I was remember thinking, oh my goodness, if that's true from pet owner to pet, how much more true is that from parent to child? And that our kids are picking up on everything.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

We're experiencing. And you know, the, the bad news being that anxiety is contagious. The good news, being calm is contagious too. So if we're doing our work as parents, we can offer as much calm as we're offering anxiety. But that requires us to do our work.

Yeah, yeah. Because it also travels up the leash.

Indeed, both directions.

[Cindy Goff]

Right.

[David Thomas]

You can start to take on those feelings from your children. They're anxious or they. And you're a little bit anxious and you second guess yourself. And so I love that this book, I mean, even in this one, are my kids on track? There are a list of coping skills and parents could use them too. I mean, I think that's where it's weight right there. It's on page 62. And one of the things it said was I've recently heard of several inpatient hospitalization programs that won't allow kids to leave the hospital until they come up with 100 coping skills. Yes, we all need them.

[Cindy Goff]

We all need them. And you're right. I mean, Jenny, I feel like one of the most common conversations I'm having in my office right now, and David, I feel confident you are too, is a child starts to get anxious, we know their blood flow shifts in that moment, goes to the amygdala. So they're in fight or flight. And I don't know the science behind it, but I do think there's something about. It's a little bit like if you as a female ever lived in a door dorm or a sorority house and one person started their period and then all of a sudden everybody's on their period. I think amygdalas do the same thing. And the child's amygdala gets flipped and then all of a sudden everybody in the family's amygdala is flipped and nobody's being reasonable or rational. And that's where. I love that you pointed that out. Because in those moments, coping skills are what are going to enable all of us to get back to a place where we not only can have a rational conversation, but we can be who we long to be with the kids that we love. Because when we're operating out of our amygdala, that is not who we're being.

[David Thomas]

And it can switch back pretty quick.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

I mean, you have all these ideas in here. John Acuff calls them turn down techniques. Just turn the dial. And I think that that is really, really helpful to have. Print it out, put it on your fridge.

[Cindy Goff]

Amen.

[Jenny Urich]

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[Cindy Goff]

Okay, can we just be honest for a second? Health insurance is a mess. I mean, since 2000, wages have gone up up 54%. But insurance premiums? They're up 200%. That's four times faster. And even when you have coverage, one in five in network claims still get denied. What even is the point? So if you're out there without health insurance, I see you.

[Jenny Urich]

Seriously.

[Cindy Goff]

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[David Thomas]

Books for kids ages 4 to 7. The Daystar Dogs and you also talk a lot about play. So when you talk about things starting young, I mean, this is another place where things start young. Can you talk about the importance of play in terms of emotional literacy and social literacy?

Yes. I think play is not only foundational to kids developing emotionally and socially, but I think too, besides all the great benefits we know from just kids moving their bodies, experiencing boredom, which Jenny, you talk about beautifully, experiencing healthy risks which happens in an accelerated way in the outdoors, experiencing opportunity for back to reciprocity negotiating, when my friend says, I don't want to play that anymore and I've got to switch gears and play what they want to play or what to do. I can remember a dozen experiences of playing some game of kickball and somebody cheated. How do I navigate cheaters? And so all the different opportunities that I think arise for kids in that context, for so much growth and development happening.

Yes.

[Cindy Goff]

Conflict resolution, leading and following. Yes. So many good things, regulating my emotions because if I fall apart on the ball field, no one's going to want to play with me. I mean, there's so many great opportunities in play. Love that you brought that up.

[David Thomas]

And you talk about how play is so many things. Helping to cook a meal, picking blueberries, throwing the ball for a dog, building a fort, just being spontaneous. It's all of these different things. These are play. Taking a walk in the rain. You say get down on the floor. Play with your children, play dolls, play school. I was interesting because we were just at that movie premiere together. It was in the middle of spring break. So we had been in this place called Paulie's island in South Carolina with another family who has the same amount of kids at similar ages. And we left for one day. I mean, we drove and then we drove back home through the night to go back to the beach. And our youngest kids from Both families are 8 years old, a boy and a girl. And the other mom told me while you were gone, the little boy was like, oh, well, now I can Play this because your daughter wouldn't have wanted to play that. And so the day that she's not here, I'm gonna play this. And then when she comes back, and I just thought those are pretty good social skills right there, you know, to have the awareness of like, oh, well, that friend doesn't really want to do that, so I won't. And when she's gone, I'm gonna do this other thing. And I thought, eight years old, like that's sort of what they're learning. Like they really know each other. That's sort of an intimate knowing of like, oh yeah, that friend doesn't really like this. I was pretty impressed. How about this play creates space for the spiritual lives of children to awaken.

I wholeheartedly agree with that. And I, I would invite every person listening to. Just think about your own experience of encountering God differently in the outdoors.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

Like, I don't have a lot of encounters with God when I'm scrolling on social media, but I have a lot of encounters with God when I'm hiking. You know, it's just fascinating how it just opens me up to experiencing creation. It opens me up to wonder and awe and noticing things and looking up rather than looking down. So I wholeheartedly believe that play, and particularly outdoor play invites us into that.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes, Yes. I feel like play makes us more open handed too. You know, I just think so many of us live our lives in this intensity of trying to micromanage so many things. And to your point, I think, David, that that sense of wonder and awe that we have when we get outside, when we're experiencing play, makes us live in a more open handed posture where we experience more gratitude, more hope, more wonder, more intimacy with God in so many ways.

[David Thomas]

It's all throughout this book. And I just thought that was such a wonderful thing for people to read. And Dr. Meg Meeker talks about how kids need God as she says it, like fact, like this is like what the science says. Kids need God. And so it's just part of your, your parenting journey is to help your kids in those areas. How about this? I loved this. I like, I loved, loved, loved this. This is what I'm saying. We're training. Go for it. You know, this is your training ground. This is your time. You get these books. Your kids are young, ages 4 to 7, you know, age 3, get the Daystar Dogs books. And you're starting early with this training about resilience and courage and jealousy. Actually, that's a really big one. I think that's a great one to come out near the holidays, especially in this age of social media where you see a lot more of what people are doing. I mean, these are just incredible, incredible topics. But we're training. And so David, you talked about. Okay, this is a couple really, really amazing nuggets. First of all, you talked about your own mother quite a bit. And she was a trainer. She was a trainer. So there was two things that really stuck out to me. One was she was able to train non verbally. And so then you're paying attention to non verbal cues. Can you talk about that?

I'd love to. My mom was a rock star trainer and she did it with this beautiful combination of strength and love. Like she was always really loving. And I never questioned that. She didn't want my greater good, but she had a lot of strength for the moments when I was frustrated and not following through. And so my mom would start with the basics of touching her lips at the table if I was chewing with my mouth open, which is a necessary skill set that I have used all throughout five decades of my life. And I'm thankful I learned it, but was frustrated at the time in the training. And my mom would also do that a little later down the road. In my adolescence, if I was talking too long, which I had a tendency to do, and missing that reciprocity we were talking about of. Of doing as much listening as I was talking, or she would tug on her ear at times if my tone got disrespectful, which I love, the creativity in that rather than just calling that out with words. But it gave me an opportunity to kind of autocorrect in that moment. And I knew that if I didn't, I could blow right past that visual cue and I was probably going to get some Atari time taken away. I aged myself in telling that, didn't I? Or I could honor that cue and course correct in that moment. And I think how often I have fallen back on that training. And I think the other thing I would say, Jenny, I love that you keep bringing up that word. Because the other thing that the three of us know is that training is long and slow. Like we think about training in the context of a sport that a kid loves, you know, or to play on a professional level. Like that's something you do for years and years and years. And sometimes training is really hot outdoors and sometimes training doesn't yield immediate results and we can't see evidence of growth, which I think is so the journey of parenting. And so any parent listening I think we all need that reminder that there just are going to be seasons where kids are going to plateau not just in their physical growth, but their emotional and social growth as well. And sometimes we're going to labor long and hard with the training and we won't see as much evidence of the fruit, but we stay the course knowing that sometimes they're going to be my age when they recognize all the good that came from those cues that my mom would give me with consistency.

That's really good. I mean, it's such practical advice. Instead of saying stop chewing with your mouth open, which is grating and embarrassing and, you know, just a little cue. And then you said that she would role play with you. I vividly remember rehearsing prom night with my mother, opening the car and restaurant doors and greeting my date's mother and father before pictures. I also, this is huge because my mom used to say, like, you want to get invited back? How should you act if you want to get invited back? Yes, you say. I also remember role playing the practice of gratitude with my mom. Before I'd spend time in a friend's home, my mother would wisely remind me how much went in to making a meal, how much time to prepare this meal, and required me to practice finding the mother and thanking her for feeding you. You said it used to drive you crazy, but what a mom to say. No, no. Like you have to go find the mom. She might be in the kitchen, she might be doing dishes. You go find her and you tell her thank you. And then what's going to happen is your kid's going to get invited back. That's so good.

[Cindy Goff]

And I want to add to that David though, because I feel like as you say, all that Jenny, it lands so differently on me because I knew David's mom and she did every bit of that. Yes. We just have been friends for 30 something years. So I had the privilege of knowing Barbara and she was so kind and so relational and so present and so connected in the midst of giving really helpful direction. And I think we can get more. I just met with a mom last week who is giving a lot of helpful direction. I would say even correction, but prioritizing correction over connection and both feel equally important. And sometimes those of us who can lean towards doing a lot of correcting can miss the connecting piece of it. And Barbara Thomas hit both out of the park, which is why I think David a huge part. He's got a really amazing dad too. But I think it's so much of why David's who he is in the world.

[David Thomas]

And you can just see it, the mom that role plays, you know. Open the door for me.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes. Amazing. Yes.

[David Thomas]

All the way through high school.

Oh, Jenny, she made me go stand outside on the front porch of our house, like, not just practicing in the kitchen, but like go outside, ring the doorbell. The entire exchange, which, you know, as obnoxious as that seemed in the moment, was what made me feel more prepared when I, I was in the actual situation because I practice every part of that experience. So yes, I think it's again, goes back to the training and just where we want parents to hear us cheering them on in the harder, labor intensive, eye rolling ish moments of the training.

[Cindy Goff]

Amen.

[David Thomas]

It bears fruit.

Yeah. I think what you do is you, you cast a vision for it to be creative and fun and also you get permission to do it.

It.

Yeah. And yes, and playful, but the permission to do it. Because I think as a parent sometimes like, so we have these five kids and sometimes there's a certain one where like you don't. We say it nicer than this, but like, he doesn't come across well. He comes across bored or uninterested. He kind of, you know, and so as a parent, you're like, well, how much do I train or how much do I. Because that kind of, I think that matters, you know, like, how do people first perceive you in their first impressions? And those types of things matter. And so the book beyond giving you tools, it also gives you permission, like, oh, we should be doing this. And also here's a fun way to do it and be creative, you know, do the touching thing, you know, like, you know, they're looking kind of, you know, you could, I don't know, like you could have all sorts of little things you do. And so I don't know how you do that. However you do that in the book, you're. You're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I want to try that. One of them was, who was it? Maybe it was you, David or your dad. Like, ask your mother about her day.

Yes.

And then it'll be like, no, no, no. Like, ask her. So they'd be like, well, how was your day? And you're like, no, no, you have to ask so she knows that you genuinely care. And what would that look like? Yes, I love that.

Practice that at the dinner table when my kids were growing up too. And you know, it's interesting as we're having this conversation, one of my sons is one of the most caring individuals I know. Like Deeply caring, deeply loving, but is quiet. And so I think you wouldn't necessarily find your way to that immediately. And I was thinking about when you were telling that story about your son, how he could get missed or what's really going on inside of him could get missed just because of the exterior presentation, so to speak. And you know what would be true about me, back to my mom's practice with gratitude, is I don't think I'm an instinctive, grateful person at all. Like, that's not my hardwiring, but I think people could experience that with me because my mom made me practice it so much. Like I'm a one on the Enneagram. My default setting is criticism. That's what I could go to that just like that. But I think having practiced gratitude long enough, I can access that even though it's non instinctive or a default setting. And I think my dad having practiced that with me for so long, me having practiced that with my sons, I was practicing myself of just what does it look like to ask other people questions? Back to that listening and learning piece that honors the inherent goodness in people.

[Cindy Goff]

Yeah.

[David Thomas]

And in a lot of your books you talk about like you just kind of, you wait it out. You're like that, you know, that doesn't quite hit the bill. So you're gonna try again or in that type of thing. And this is really good. I mean, isn't it interesting? In a parenting book, asking questions is a way to battle entitlement. Asking questions sets the stage for the practice of empathy.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

So interesting. Like everything from the pets to the asking questions. I mean, there is so much in here, the non verbal cues. Let's hit one more thing because this book with Owen, this is about resilience and self control is coming down the road, right? That's coming out. Yes. Toward the end of the year. Okay. And have you figured out what's coming next?

[Cindy Goff]

We've had some fun conversations.

[David Thomas]

Yeah.

Okay. All right. So I'm excited about this whole series, but when you talk about resilience and learning that you have what it takes. One of the things that you had talked about Sissy, that you're seeing more and more is that you're starting to see preschool girls. Preschool who are dealing with perfectionism.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

And I know that this is a really hard thing that can span the entirety of life. We can freeze. We don't move forward because it's not going to be perfect. And so I know that the books can be like, oh, this one's maybe a little bit more for girls and this one's more for boys. But these two books, really talking about having what it takes and being brave, they really go so well together. How do we deal with these perfectionist tendencies and even in these really young age of kids?

[Cindy Goff]

I think I had three conversations about that yesterday. I mean, I am talking with parents about it all the time. And I think on one hand, for them, for young girls in particular, and David, I would be curious if you would say the same is true for boys. But I think when they haven't yet developed other coping strategies, control becomes their primary coping strategy. And so they develop all this rigidity around. I think I know what's going to happen next. This is how this is you're supposed to act in this moment. This is what you're supposed to do for me. And they just lose it and go to 10. As you said, we have these tools in the books and I have a little thermometer in the Lucy book on helping kids learn to regulate their emotions. And so I talk with parents a lot about calling it the control monster. The control monster is telling you right now you're not going to be okay if your brother comes in and messes up your room or whatever the thing is that's tipping them off in that moment and so helping them learn to fight that with tools like deep breathing and having things that they can say over and over to themselves, like, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. You know, any statement they can go back to, that becomes kind of a mantra for them. And then I would say on the parents end, and I said this exactly yesterday, I want every parent to be talking with their kids about their own failure because you're their heroes. And so I want you to be saying at the dinner table, oh, I cannot believe how much I blew it when X happened or when Y happened. Because then they're going to feel like, oh, it's not that something's wrong with me, that I messed up. My parents, who are my heroes, make mistakes too, so I'm okay. And so I think coming at it from both ends can be really helpful and even deepen that understanding of you're okay because you're loved, even though you're making mistakes, even though you feel anxious, even though you don't feel like you have what it takes. You can have courage and security in how deeply loved you are by us and by God.

[David Thomas]

That's so good. I mean, you have so much empathy for, for a preschooler who's dealing with perfectionism. And maybe anger sort of combined with control and all of those things kind of going on at the same time. You're a perfectionist often. It often looks like anger. And yes, kids are trying to live up to insurmountable expectations. You had told a story about a girl was sobbing, she got a 94% on an exam, you know, and you're hearing stories like that all over the.

[Cindy Goff]

Place all the time.

[David Thomas]

And especially in college, there's no experience with dealing with frustration and the, you know, the girl doesn't like you, and the, you know, you didn't get the grade that you wanted. And so kids are really, really struggling. What a book. What a set of books. I mean, all of them. I've never picked up one that I haven't been like, well, this is one of my favorites. You pick it up. And of course, I saw in the. When I got sent the documents about. About the Daystar Dogs books, it was like, they've sold over 500,000 copies of books. And I was like, oh, yes, of course. Of course they have. Of course they have, because they're wonderful. I want to talk about a couple other topics that are in this one, just so people know. This one's called Are My Kids on Track? I really think, get the little series for the summer. Get the series for the summer. And like, you read with your kids, they're going to have their books, and you've got your books. You talk about narcissism. You're talking about screens and how they affect emotional literacy. You're talking about building empathy. You're talking about, I can't turn my page here. I'm stuck. Oh, a whole page. I didn't even talk about any of this. The mask you live in documentary, all the questions that you should ask yourself. You talk about the Love and Logic books, which. Those changed my life. Those were the first parenting books I read.

[Cindy Goff]

Wow.

[David Thomas]

And I actually read them as a teacher. I read Teaching with Love and Logic. And I feel like I got a head start on parenting from those books. They were life changing. David, you talked about these study circles that you did where you had to practice being kind rather than being right. And those are one of the top 10 richest experiences. That. That was one of the top 10 richest experiences you've ever had. You talk about the back door, front door with teens, like, you know, trying to, like, not be so predictable. You talk about what girls need to hear. Top 10 Social Skills for school. It's so good. I'm like, how did they get so much in here? You are.

[Cindy Goff]

So, Jenny, it's time for you to.

[David Thomas]

Come back to Nashville right now.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes.

[David Thomas]

You are so deeply encouraging.

[Cindy Goff]

Yes. Amen.

[David Thomas]

Faith is foundational. Your child's spiritual life is what matters most of all. I just. For my last question, I would love to know then, how did the two of you meet? I didn't know that you've known each other for that long.

[Cindy Goff]

We have a really funny. Yes. And it was in our past career lives that we met. I was writing for a music magazine called CCM magazine back when we held real magazines in our hands. And I was interviewing new and upcoming artists, and David was working for this artist and dear friend of both of ours named Andy Landis. And I interviewed Andy for the magazine and met David, and we became fast friends. And then, get this, Jenny. Then I quickly stopped doing that and was at daystar. David went to grad school. I mean, barely behind me. We have been doing this very similar amounts of time, but enough so that when he was finishing up grad school and I was already at daystar, we went to lunch, and he said, I'd really like a job at daystar maybe. I think what y' all are doing is amazing. And I said, oh, we're not hiring.

[David Thomas]

Shot me right down.

[Cindy Goff]

Thank goodness Melissa Trevathan had the foresight to know and God prompted her that, yes, we were, in fact hiring because it was David. And so I'm emotional.

[David Thomas]

This makes me emotional. And here you are half a million books later. Wow, that's a really cool story. David and Cissy. This has just been such an honor.

Oh, friend. The gift of this work having meant that all of our past would intersect and we would have these beautiful opportunities to be with you in town, in person, and today on a screen. Jenny, any chance to be with you is a gift.

[Cindy Goff]

Amen.

[David Thomas]

Thank you. I mean, you could never have thought. I mean, that in 97, you. You just don't know. Like, you have statistics in this book about how bad anxiety's gotten. And, like, you know, that day star, it's just, you know, it's continued to grow. And, like, you walk in the door and it just, like, keeps going. You can go either direction, and you can just. Just keep going. There's, like, more rooms and more rooms and more dogs and more dollhouses. 10 to 15% of children and teenagers are depressed at any given time. Anxiety is now considered a childhood epidemic in America, affecting one in eight kids. Teenagers are five to eight times more likely to fit the criteria for anxiety or major depression than half a century ago. Kids are experiencing greater difficulty with their emotions and less perspective or less of an ability to self regulate. So what a time. This was your time and it needed to happen so what a beautiful story. The Daystar Books the first two will be out by the time this podcast goes live. I highly recommend having your summer reading be Are My Kids on Track? It will change your life. The 12 emotional, social and spiritual milestones your child needs to reach and any book, any book by David and Sissy, any of their podcast episodes. Thank you to the both of you so much for being here.

[Cindy Goff]

Jenny thank you. It is a delight to be with you.

[David Thomas]

You always.

[Dr. Edie Wadsworth]

Hi dear one. I'm Dr. Edie Wadsworth, your new favorite Christian life coach, and I want to invite you to the House of Joy podcast. If you're a woman over 40 or the daughter of one who wants to build a positive mindset, healthier habits and thriving relationships, this is the show for you. We talk about personal growth, faith resilience and creating a life you're obsessed with. So if you're tired of feeling stuck and ready to step into into more joy and purpose, come join us. Listen now wherever you get your podcast.

[Trey Tucker]

Are you hungry for guidance about mindset, relationships, health, finances, career decisions and dealing with your past? I'm Trey Tucker, licensed therapist and speaker and host of Rugged, a podcast where I help young men and women navigate life's challenges and find solutions to help them live lives of so many service and meaning. In this podcast, you'll learn mindset strategies to harness your thoughts and emotions in ways that help you achieve your goals. I bring a blend of straight talk and empathy, and I'm open to addressing any topic and treating it and the people connected to it with respect and curiosity. Come join us. We have a space for you. Search for Rugged with Trey Tucker wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to hit the Follow button so new weekly episodes will be delivered to straight to your personal podcast feed. My hope is that this podcast will leave you feeling encouraged and empowered to take charge of your life and close the gap between who you are and who you want to be.