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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 482: Big Tech Is Profiting from Your Child’s Imagination | Susie Spikol, Forest Magic for Kids
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- [00:00]
Jenny Ersin
Out here, there's no one way of doing things, no unwritten rules, and no shortage of adventure. Because out here, the only requirement is having fun. Bank of America invites kids 618 to golf with us for a limited time. Sign them up for a free one year membership, giving them access to discounted Tetons at thousands of courses. Learn more@bankofamerica.com golf with us what would you like the power to do? Bank of America restrictions apply. See BFA.com golf with us for complete details. Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ersin, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I love return guests. Return guests are such a treat. Susie Spickle is back. She came on before. It's been a couple years, but we talked about your wonderful book called Animal Adventures Guide, which was just such like a touching. It was like enticing. It was like the type of book that compels you to go out and find more of the simple things out there. And I love it. And you're back today. Welcome. Hi.
- [00:59]
Susie Spickle
So good to be back. I'm so excited. I love everything that you're doing and I love how you really encourage people, families, kids to get outside. So keep it up. Jenny, awesome work.
- [01:11]
Jenny Ersin
Well, thanks for that. And you've got such a background. You've loved being outside ever since you were a little kid. You talk about fireflies in Brooklyn and woolly bear caterpillars. It's like the little things meant a lot to you when you were young. And you are continuing to inspire families. That's what I felt about Animal Adventurer's Guide. And then you have a new book called Forest Magic for Kids. It is delightful. This is a delightful book. Forest Magic for Kids. How to find fairies, Make a secret fort and cook up an elfin Picnic. Give us just a little bit of your, of your backstory in terms of your childhood. But then you ended up going into a career as a naturalist.
- [01:47]
Susie Spickle
I know, right? Who would think a girl from Brooklyn would end up as a naturalist? But maybe it was growing up in Brooklyn that really fed my imagination. I was always one of those kids that was looking in the sidewalk cracks and kind of finding the secret green places in a city. I was really fortunate. My parents were school teachers and they had the summers off and we had a little tiny cabin in Vermont, a little house. And that's kind of where I felt most free and felt even more in love with the natural world. And I became a naturalist and I've been teaching people of all ages about the natural world for over 35 years now in southwestern New Hampshire. And in my spare time, I love to write. And so I've been so fortunate. I've had the Animal Adventurer's Guide. And then this April, Forest Magic for Kids. And then coming in September, I have my first fiction book called the Book of Fairies.
- [02:45]
Jenny Ersin
Tell us about the Book of Fairies that's coming.
- [02:47]
Susie Spickle
Oh my gosh, I can hardly wait. It is so charming. It's the same artist that did the artwork for Forest Magic. It's sort of a companion to that Forest Magic. And the Book of Fairies is all about the imaginative space of nature. How when you're outside, you can kind of let your mind wander and imagine. Imagine the magical things that kind of fill childhood. Fairies, gnomes, little mice that have adventures, that kind of thing. So the Book of Fairies is just. It's actually. This sounds crazy, but it's a book I started when I was 8, Ginny. I had a little notebook. And you know when you're a kid and you see something and you try to make sense of it and you have magical thinking. So I would see bubbles and notice there were rainbows inside the bubbles. And I would imagine there were little fairies inside the bubbles making the rainbows. And I kind of kept this book and oh my gosh, 40 something years later I've had the chance to write it. So it's a book that's got folklore and mythology from mostly Western Europe and then my own imagination from when I was 8 and now my imagination as an adult as well. Working with kids outside, it's a big year.
- [03:55]
Jenny Ersin
It's a big year to have two books released six months from each other. I know, that's incredible. What an accomplishment.
- [04:01]
Susie Spickle
Thank you.
- [04:02]
Jenny Ersin
So the Forest Magic for Kids is out already in the book. And the Book of Fairies comes out this September. Can you talk about. And this is something that is woven through all of your books. You know, when we talk about getting outside, a lot of times people think of the grand things. They think of the waterfalls and the Grand Canyons and places like that. But you really highlight that there is wonder everywhere. And you talk about, you know, this meteor shower where you're outside with your son who is 11. I mean, you think about 11 year old boys now, it's like they're on screens, they all have cell phones by the time they're 11. For the most part, that's what the statistics are showing. So he's outside and you see this meteor shower and it just Sparks, imagination, like, oh, those look like they're dragons. And you know, it's something that we really appear to have lost quite a bit, especially in childhood. So can you talk about how nature that's like, seems like it's one of your goals is to remind kids and parents and teachers and adults that wonder is kind of everywhere.
- [04:57]
Susie Spickle
Oh yeah. I am a huge advocate for what I like to call everyday wonder, which is just like what is right by you, where no matter where you are, no matter what you're doing, if you just slow down for a minute and pay attention to the natural world. We have a saying where I work at the Harris center in Hancock, New Hampshire, we say nature delivers and it really does. Like you don't need anything, you don't need to go anywhere special to find nature. You just need to take a moment and be open to it and let your senses kind of absorb it. So, you know, I think we have a sense in our mind as adults of what something wild is. And that might be like an eagle or a whale breaching or you know, like this massive sunset, but if we just look at the world through beginners eyes, our children's eyes, you know, a caterpillar is spectacular as a wolf for a child and maybe for us as adults if we reset kind of our ideas. And that's what I've really been working on my whole career is helping people find those connections to the everyday wild.
- [06:05]
Jenny Ersin
And one of the things that you talk about in this one is just dandelions. They have, you have so many activities of things that you can do with dandelions. You know, you go into, you're talking about foraging and I think when people think about foraging, they're like those morel mushrooms or you know, you're trying to find like something really, you know, you open it up, you're like foraging and you're thinking it's going to be like, you're like dandelions.
- [06:27]
Susie Spickle
Oh my gosh. I think, you know, dandelions are going to take over the world, right? Everybody's always trying to get rid of them, but instead of trying to get rid of them, let's just embrace them. I mean, think about how, how thrilled children are when they find a dandelion seed head and they blow it. And that's just so thrilling. And dandelions are amazing plants for so many pollinators. They're an important part of our, of our fabric, even though they're non native to the United States. So I like to eat them, I like to make tea with them. When I'm working with children, I like to, of course, pop their heads off, which everybody likes to do. Like to blow the seeds when they're full. These are all things you can do with kids. And the dandelion stem is hollow, so you can actually dip it in bubble water and use it as a. You can blow bubbles through it, which is really cool. And they tell time. Dandelions follow the sun. So if you go out early in the morning, before the sun's up, they're closed. And as the sun comes up, they open and open and open, and they'll be fully open at the height of the day, and then they'll close up again. And that's. They used to be called fairy clocks, which I just love. So that's a really great example of an everyday, very ordinary. Some might even consider a weed where there's still so much pleasure and so much magic and so much to be discovered. And it's just the right scale for kids. Plus, you know, we're always telling kids, don't pick those flowers. Don't pick those flowers. Like, that might be your neighbor's flowers or your flowers. You can pick as many dandelions as you want. Nobody's gonna care.
- [08:00]
Jenny Ersin
My youngest daughter brought me a bouquet.
- [08:02]
Susie Spickle
Exactly.
- [08:02]
Jenny Ersin
Just last week, she brought me a bouquet. And so we put them in. I mean, she was so excited about it. And they are so pretty. It's such a vibrant yellow. So she brings me these bouquet of dandel and we put them in a jar and they just went to seed. And she was so excited about that. You know, we had some water in there, and she was like, oh, my goodness. They went to seed. And to see that change in just a couple days was so wonderful. So that's what's in this book. I want to read it. So the book is called Forest Magic. You wrote dandelions because I didn't know this at all. Susie. Dandelions are also known as fairy clocks. It's because the dandelion opens with the sun and closes up when the sun goes down. Many folk tales say that the fairies keep track of time using these dandelion clocks. So if you're reading fairy tales to your kids, I mean, all of this is going to come together. And dandelions used to be used to predict the weather.
- [08:50]
Susie Spickle
Yeah, right. If it was going to be raining, they close up because they don't want their. You know, that it's like nature saying, oh, close up, the rain's coming. Could get her lose your petals. So, yeah, I know, right? I mean, who would think the kind of everyday dandelion, the thing that people spend, you know, trying to get out of their lawn, trying to get rid of, off of it. It's a great teaching opportunity and a great way for children to connect. And I love a forest. Magic, for me is also a celebration of fairy tales and folklore and literature. I've always been with my own family, really big on reading out loud and then having adventures based on that. So reading something like Stuart Little and then going outside and, you know, imagining the world through Stuart Little's eyes, building his little boat, you know, maybe even having a little mouse figure that you make and you bring around and make the world of Stuart Little. So using literature and storybooks and connecting that to the outdoors with your children, I think it's a win. Win for everybody.
- [09:56]
Jenny Ersin
Yeah, there's a lot there. There's a lot there. Okay, so you say some might consider it a weed. And I think a lot of people consider it a weed. And because you. If you look at people's lawns, it's like some are just total green and some are green, dad. With lots of dandelions. So some people think it's a weed and some people don't. But I had this man on named Douglas Tallamy.
- [10:16]
Susie Spickle
I love that guy. I'm crazy about him.
- [10:19]
Jenny Ersin
Yeah, it's wonderful. And he talks about when you spray your lawn. He says that that is on there the whole summer.
- [10:26]
Susie Spickle
Yeah.
- [10:26]
Jenny Ersin
You know, like, I guess you're used to seeing those little flags that's like, stay off the lawn. Cause it got sprayed today. But he said that's basically on there for the whole summer. So if you've got your kids out there running around barefoot and. And then he also talked about, like, bringing life to your yard and how it just helps with everything. And so if you keep those dandelions, there's lots of activities that you can do with them. You entice people to do it. You're like, well, I. What if you don't have dandelions? Then you can't do any of this.
- [10:50]
Susie Spickle
Stuff you do with any flower. Well, you can't eat. You can't eat every flower, but you can find the magic of every flower.
- [10:58]
Jenny Ersin
Right. But if you get rid of them, I guess it just reminds you that if you get rid of them, it's like you're getting rid of something that's really special with a hollow stem. How do you make a tea out of dandelions?
- [11:08]
Susie Spickle
Oh, my gosh, it's so fun. It's the dandelion leaves, really. And it was used during, like, colonial times for different things. It's supposedly good if you had a belly ache and everything like that, but you can buy it in the store. They sell dandelion tea, but I like to collect the fresh green leaves. And again.
- [11:26]
Jenny Ersin
Okay, so just to clarify, when I think of a dandelion, I don't think of leaves.
- [11:31]
Susie Spickle
I know. Well, the name dandelion. A lot of us think about the dandelion looking maybe like a lion. It looks like it has, like, a yellow fringe around it, but it's actually not named for that. Like, it's named after the leaf. The leaf is sort of got this tooth. It's long and toothy. So if you go to a dandelion, you follow the stem down to the base, you're going to find these teethy leaves. And they were named. They were named after the tooth of the lion. They have, like, these jagged, long teeth.
- [11:58]
Jenny Ersin
So that's the leaf. It's the part that's close to the grass.
- [12:01]
Susie Spickle
Yes.
- [12:01]
Jenny Ersin
See, I would have thought that the leaf was like that little. The little bit of green that's kind of like around the outside of the yellow part. But no. Okay, the leaves, that's by the grass. Okay. That's the.
- [12:10]
Susie Spickle
That's the sepal. The part that's sort of like right under the beautiful flower is this kind of green thing that holds it and closes it. But the long leaves, that's what you're really after. And people make dandelion salads when they're fresh and coming out and just tender. You can put them in a salad. They're sort of tangy, but I like to brew them up in a tea. With my students, I use a Kelly kettle. Have you ever used a Kelly kettle?
- [12:33]
Jenny Ersin
I don't think so.
- [12:34]
Susie Spickle
Oh, my gosh. You got to get a Kelly kettle. I love making fires outside with kids and cooking things on them. But the Kelly kettle is fast. It's got this little, like, chamber where you build this tiny little fire. And then you put this kettle right on top of it. And you fill the kettle up with water, and it heats up really fast. It's like a chimney, and it's hollow inside. And then you can make a tea out of it. And you put the dandelion leaves into a teapot. You let it seep for a while. So if you're really feeling ambitious, you can let it seep in the sunlight just in a big jug of water. If it's really hot, live and just let it make a sun tea. And in my book Forest Magic for Kids, I talk about Phoenix Tea. That's really a sun tea where you put leaves in. In a big jug of glass jug and let it steep in the sun. And then you serve. It tastes really good with a little bit of honey. And just back to the idea of kind of trying to kill something like a dandelion on your lawn and. And being aware that your children might be running on the lawn or playing on the lawn or picking up grass and putting it in their mouth. I mean, I love Doug Tallamy because he talks about the national park for caterpillars. Did he talk about that on your show?
- [13:48]
Jenny Ersin
Yes, Homegrown national park, basically.
- [13:51]
Susie Spickle
I love that.
- [13:52]
Jenny Ersin
I had no idea, Susie, how many caterpillars a bird will eat. I mean, it was in the tens of thousands a bird will use to raise their clutch. I don't know the words. But you also say it's okay to not know the words. You actually specifically say that.
- [14:05]
Susie Spickle
Yeah.
- [14:06]
Jenny Ersin
When it comes to fostering deep connection to nature, it isn't just about knowing the names or understanding the food web. It's also about imagination and creativity. So you say that so I feel better about it in Forest Magic for Kids. But, yes, it's Homegrown national park, where he says if we were to use our lawns to attract wildlife, that it would be bigger than all of the national parks combined or something like that.
- [14:27]
Susie Spickle
I love it.
- [14:28]
Jenny Ersin
So it's very, very, very motivating. So you might want to keep your dandelions. You're going to pick up Forest Magic for Kids and be like, oh, there's a lot of things I can do with these dandelions. And if you don't have dandelions, you also can use. You have other flowers that you can use. Red or white clover, you say wild violet, wild mint, chamomile. This is just showing the point, though, that dandelions are everywhere.
- [14:49]
Susie Spickle
That's right. That's right.
- [14:50]
Jenny Ersin
Wild clover, like these things that are just so simple are probably going to be close by. You're going to be able to find some. And then you talk about all of these different things that you can do and even to stretch into the other seasons, because if you dry them, then you might have that taste of summer in the middle of the winter.
- [15:06]
Susie Spickle
That's the best. That is the best. I just finished up my mint tea with my. I have a. I have a homeschool group that I work with every week, and we just drank the last of my mint Tea from that I saved over the summer. And as I was out this morning, I noticed my mint is coming back up. So more mint tea to come. But, yeah, you can pick stuff and dry stuff, and it's such a great activity with kids. I love all those little fragrant handson plants like wild thyme and mint and even the dandelion, and having kids touch it and smell it and crush it in their fingers and kind of. Kind of feel like they're getting that smell and essence of the plant inside of them. I mean, I just feel like everybody has something in their yard, in their community, in a local park that could be used for this.
- [16:00]
Jenny Ersin
Yes. And you just are going to learn so much from the book Forest Magic for Kids. Dandelion tea used to be common in many people's homes. Teas were made from almost every part of the plant, including roasting the root.
- [16:10]
Susie Spickle
Yeah. That would make like a coffee.
- [16:12]
Jenny Ersin
Yeah. All these interesting things to learn and that people used to use them to treat kidney and liver problems. And it just. Overall, it promoted good health. It's such a different. And this is just one small part of the book, but it's such a different. It's like a celebration of the dandelion.
- [16:27]
Susie Spickle
That's right. I love celebrating that common, everyday thing. The things that maybe as adults, we don't even look at anymore, but when we give our children a chance to connect to what's right in their neighborhood, that's what's really building those deep connections to the natural world. It's that sense of place. Like, this is my home. This is where the dandelions grow. This is where my mom and I made dandelion tea. This is where we found the frog. That's what goes into a child's sense of developing a feeling of place and environmental connection.
- [17:03]
Jenny Ersin
I talked to this woman, and it wasn't her idea, but she had this special little journal where she did a calendar of first and she sold one. And it's. It wasn't her idea, but she had sold this little calendar of firsts. And it was about, like, when does the first dandelion come up? When do you first see a butterfly? And so then you're also building in that sense of time and seasonality and those simple things, they come back on it, you know, on a. Generally on a similar time scale every year, but maybe within a week or two of variability. And so that would be a really fun thing to pay attention to and educational for kids.
- [17:35]
Susie Spickle
Yeah, yeah. There used to be. People used to know, like, when the first, you know, wildflower bloomed in their backyard, and that's how they would mark the season. Like, oh, we have a plant called shadbush in New England and. Or serviceberry. And when it would bloom, it's called serviceberry because that meant the ground was soft enough that the people who passed away over the winter when the ground was too hard to bury, you could bury them. When the service bush bloomed, it meant the ground was soft. And we are. We've lost those kind of place connections. Maybe we see them on our street signs where it says something like, you know, timber Doodle or Timberdoodle Lane, which is another name for the woodcock. Right. That's where the woodcocks used to live. Or Fox Run Ridge. That's where the foxes used to live. But it's like we're losing these connections. And I love when family really try to reconnect. Because just because we lost it doesn't mean it's not there anymore. It's just we have to make that effort.
- [18:36]
Jenny Ersin
There's a book called still where this woman, she does a little bit of nature photography every day. It's like a daily creative practice. Her name is Mary Jo, and she. Every single day, she did a little bit of found nature. She takes a photo. She's been doing it for ten years, almost exclusively. Then they had a crazy house fire. And so I think she took a couple days off, but other than that, she hadn't missed a day. And she was talking in her book about how every five days it changes just a little bit outside. And for sure, every two weeks, it's like these micro seasons. And so it can become something that you really notice, you know, like, I'm reading this book at the same time that my daughter brings me this little bouquet of dandelions. And you're like, there's seasons for these different things. And where we live in Michigan, there's this apple orchard. We have a lot of apple orchards here. And one of them you can do, you pick asparagus. And so we would go, we did. You pick asparagus. And then at the same time, it's when the apple blossoms are. So you can go get your phone, you know, your photos taken, because it's at the apple orchard and they have this. You pick asparagus field. And then. So, you know, it's neat to notice what things happen at the same time, like you said. Yeah, right.
- [19:40]
Susie Spickle
And that is how we mark our time passing in a way. And. And it's really good to be intentional and aware of it. In a. In a way. And to pass that on to your child so that they're making the. Those kind of natural connections and paying attention to it, and they can then pass that on to their own families. You know, got to keep it going, right?
- [20:01]
Jenny Ersin
Yes. Okay. I learned this new word, herbaria. Is that the word?
- [20:06]
Susie Spickle
Yes.
- [20:07]
Jenny Ersin
Okay. I didn't. I didn't know that word. It's a book of pressed plants. And you say people have been doing this for thousands of years, Pressed plants. Now we've done it. Just very few. Because sometimes I'm like, I don't have enough books. And I'm like, everything is smashed down. But the times that I have done it, it is so delightful. Oh, my gosh, those pressed flowers and they're so. And leaves, and there's so many things you can do with them. Inspire us this summer to press some plants. Some flowers or leaves.
- [20:36]
Susie Spickle
Sure. Yeah. Well, you don't really need anything that special. Maybe just a couple of heavy books. And I like to use some wax paper or parchment paper or newspaper. And you're just going to pick the prettiest blossoms that you can find of all sorts of. And kind of put it in the paper and then put the heavy stuff on top of it and leave it there. Just. You can leave it there for a while, forget about it for a few weeks, and then it will have dried out. And then you can take your dried flowers and you can. What I like to do with kids is I like to use them to make potions, like mixtures, which is such a huge thing for young children. They like to make concoctions. And the little bits of the dried flowers, you can crumble in there. I also have used them to put on beeswax candles. You melt a little bit of beeswax and kind of paint it right onto a candle. I've used it for making a crown, where you just take a piece of cardboard and put tape facing out around the outside of the cardboard and then stick the dried plants to it. You can make garlands if you want to get more complicated. And you have children that have really good fine motor skills or a little bit older, where they can kind of weave the dried flowers into a grape garland or something like that. Yeah. Get outside, pick the wild blossoms, put them in a heavy book. Do it with leaves in the autumn when they change color. I still have a few leaves from when I was a kid collected with my mom. We pressed it in a giant dictionary, and then we put it in contact paper, and it hangs up in my House. House still. And it's just, for me, a really dear memory of a time with my mom. So, yeah, put the press, flowers, and contact paper, too. That's another way to do it. So, yeah, so many things to do. I think what's great about nature is it's just full of all these loose parts. You don't really need to buy anything special, and you just need to go out and kind of be in it and explore and leave. Sticks, stones, flowers, grass, vines. It's all. It's all there for our imagination.
- [22:40]
Jenny Ersin
And you talk about making art with it. A Japanese word is oshibana.
- [22:46]
Susie Spickle
Yeah. They would use the dried flowers to make these really beautiful actual, like, portraits or pictures. And you can go online and look it up. They're stunning. Like, you. You can't even believe that they're made out of flowers. And I've seen some really beautiful collages made with dried flowers. You can also use them if you don't want to dry them. Another cool thing to do is sort of dip them in ink and use a brayer and then roll it or something like a dandelion. I didn't put this in the book, but I love this. It's. It's smudge art. Have you ever done smudge art?
- [23:23]
Jenny Ersin
I don't think so.
- [23:23]
Susie Spickle
Okay. It's really fun. You just pick something like a dandelion and you get a hard piece of paper with maybe a clipboard, and you squish up the dandelion top and it actually squishes onto the paper and it leaves the pigment. So you can draw a whole p using nature's pigments, from dandelions to little bit of mud to grassy leaves to, you know, other types of plants that you might find. And sometimes the color you squish out of the plant isn't the same color as the plant. You know, pick an orange plant, but the color comes out green. It's just really fun. Again, it's so hands on. It's such a tactile thing for. For families to do together.
- [24:01]
Jenny Ersin
Yes. We've done the one where you hammer it. Yeah. And then out comes some of the color. I mean, that is. There are so many cool things and all the things that are right around you. You talked about with the contact paper that you can make bookmarks or sun catchers. And I really liked the idea of just sprinkling them on your picnic blanket.
- [24:17]
Susie Spickle
Oh, so pretty. To set the tone. I love picnics, and I wish that more people picnicked. It's just a wonderful way to Spend time outside. The number of people picnicking has declined, just like the number of people, you know spending time outside. So grab a picnic blanket. Don't worry about making anything fancy, but if you have some dried flowers, sprinkle them on your picnic blanket. It's very inviting, sets a magical tone, and it's a great way to spend time outside eating and sharing food together.
- [24:47]
Jenny Ersin
Tell us about the illustrations, because this is an enchanting, delightful book. Yeah, the illustrator just, like, take it and run with it. Did you have tons of conversations when you got it? Were you thrilled? Like, what was that whole process like?
- [25:00]
Susie Spickle
I honestly couldn't be more thrilled than Renia's artwork. It is so charming and whimsical and dreamy. And I feel so very fortunate that my publishing company, Gibbs Smith, worked with Renia and chose her to illustrate my book because she just got it. It's full of whimsy. When you write a children's book, they don't. You don't normally, as an author of the book, get to pick your illustrator. That's up to your publishing company. And I have just been so lucky that the publishing companies I've worked with, Gibbs Smith and Rhus Books, have had a really incredible aesthetic and a design team and Renia's artwork. She's also the illustrator for the Book of Fairies, so you'll see a continued kind of pairing of us together. I've never talked with her. She actually lives in Greece. When they chose her and I saw her Instagram account, I was like, I pinched myself. I couldn't believe it. And the artwork really delivers. It's so charming. It's so magical. I cried when I opened the book and saw it for the first time. I was like, oh, I can't believe this is my book. So, yeah, it's. It's magical.
- [26:11]
Jenny Ersin
I could see that. I mean, it would be so. It brings it to life.
- [26:15]
Susie Spickle
Yeah. You know, you see it through the process. I see it on the computer. They send you, like, this is what it's going to look like. But then when you actually hold it, it's so much more vibrant in the book form than it was on the screen. It's just. Just so beautiful.
- [26:30]
Jenny Ersin
Yeah, it's delightful. And a kid. There's a lot of little things that you can pick out and notice. It's one of those types where, you know, you could. You could spend a lot of time looking at a page and noticing, oh, there's a couple little gnomes back behind that tree and a couple little fairies and that person Has a fairy crown, and here's a little butterfly. And there's just a lot. There's a lot of little things to notice. Just like how it is when you go outside. I feel like.
- [26:51]
Susie Spickle
Exactly.
- [26:51]
Jenny Ersin
That was really captured.
- [26:53]
Susie Spickle
Yeah.
- [26:53]
Jenny Ersin
Okay. I have a riddle. I have a riddle for you. It actually comes from your book, so you're going to know the answer. But as people are listening, they can try and solve the riddle. What is alive but not a plant or an animal? What can grow without soil or sunlight and either give you a fancy topping for your pizza or poison you and make you sick to your stomach?
- [27:13]
Susie Spickle
Yeah, that's the answer to that has to be mushrooms.
- [27:19]
Jenny Ersin
They're all over the place.
- [27:20]
Susie Spickle
They are all over the place. And a lot of times we have a little bit of anxiety about mushrooms and children, and we should. Because eating unidentified mushrooms is very dangerous. And this book is not about eating them. I am actually not a mushroom eater. I'm not a big fan of how they taste or the texture of them. But I love everything else about mushrooms. If you came to my house, you would see I have a lot of mushroom decor. I'm super into them. They're such an incredible organism. A mushroom is neither in the plant or animal kingdom. It's its own thing. It's part of the fungi kingdom. And that is fascinating to me. And the fact that they can be poisonous is a little bit thrilling. If you handle a mushroom that is poisonous, it doesn't mean that you can absorb it into your skin. You actually have to ingest it. And so if you have children that are past the age of poison, putting stuff in their mouth. Exploring mushrooms is a really interesting thing to do because mushrooms are so diverse. They are so complex, and they come in so many wild shapes and colors, and they have crazy names like Dryad Saddle or Dead Man's Finger or Wolf's Milk Slime or Jack O' Lanterns or Foxfire. And there's so much folklore and mystery around them. Like, if you ever find a circle of. Of mushrooms growing in a circle, it's a fairy ring where fairies had danced the night before, and everywhere their foot touched grew a mushroom.
- [28:50]
Jenny Ersin
I saw that in the book, and I was like, I've never seen that. So I was like, is this something that actually happens? Like, have you ever seen there's mushrooms growing in a circle? In a ring shape.
- [29:00]
Susie Spickle
In a ring shape, yes. And it's not that uncommon. And what it really is, it's. It's what it'll be. One species of mushroom and a mushroom is just the fruiting body of the fungus. So when you see a mushroom, it's not the organism itself. So if you can. That's the other thing that's great about mushrooms, is you can pick them, and it does not kill the fungus. It is like if you picked an apple off a tree, you're not killing the apple tree. You're just taking the fruit. The mushroom is the fruiting body. So collecting a mushroom is not. Not going to be any kind of damage to the environment. And then what happens is the mycelium, that's the underground, underground fungi, kind of is growing in a circle. And when the conditions are right, the fruit pops up in a circle and. And it makes a fairy ring. And sometimes they might not be a complete circle, they might be a half circle, but if you find something like that, it's. It's really exciting. It's where fairies dance the night before. Some people used to believe that where mushrooms grew, where was where the lightning struck the day before or the night before? Because mushrooms often come up what seems like overnight, like it might rain, and then the ground is soft enough for the mushroom, the fruiting body, to push up through the earth. So, yeah, I mean, you can go crazy with mushrooms. And some of my favorite things to do with mushrooms is to make spore prints. So you collect the mushroom, you pop off the stem, you put the cap of the mushroom down on black paper, you cover it with an old bowl or an old can, leave it overnight, come back and check the next morning, and it will have dropped its spores. That's sort of the part of the reproductive process of the mushrooms that'll have dropped it in a circle in the shape of the. Of the cap. And it's so beautiful. And you could do a whole collection.
- [30:51]
Jenny Ersin
Wow.
- [30:51]
Susie Spickle
Yeah.
- [30:52]
Jenny Ersin
Because you wrote mushrooms can produce up to 30,000 spores per second. That's about 2.7 billion spores per day. And then you also talk about that there are glow in the dark mushrooms. And this is what I'm talking about. Your books, they're so compelling. You read it and you're like, well, I didn't know about that. And I want to go do that now. I want to find a fairy ring. And I didn't know that there was glow in the dark mushrooms. And they have enchanting names like fox fire, Fairy fire.
- [31:17]
Susie Spickle
Yeah.
- [31:17]
Jenny Ersin
Jack O Lantern. So there's a hundred thousand known mushrooms. Only 80 can glow. They're bioluminescent. So I didn't know about that. I want to read a little bit about this Fairy ring. I was like, this is now my life goal, find a fairy ring. Have you ever come across mushrooms growing in a circle? If so, you found a fairy ring. I've never found one. Never even thought to look. World legend says that the fairy folk come to dance and make merry at twilight. Pixies and elves and fairies, all the tiny woodland magical beings have been dancing in this ring all night long. I mean, this is just delightful. So then you give some tips. A good place to search is in a meadow or on a lawn. You can see them in the forest, but they're easier to see in the grass. The best time of year to search, you know, these particular times, it might not be a perfect circle, but if it's a ring, like group of mushrooms, you have found a fairy ring. And then you talk about how certain types, many different types, can form it, but usually it'll be the same type all the way around in the ring. And then you just have these great ideas about how to explore it once you find one. Can you hear a tiny village under the ground? You know, where do you think the fairy tales were and what story? You know, what story can you make of it? Some people believe it's where a dragon, dragon's tail touch down. And others think it's a doorway to another realm. So, you know, your kids that love imagination and love stories, I mean, these are just really special activities, things I haven't heard of before. And they are very enticing. You think right now I want to.
- [32:40]
Susie Spickle
Go, well, thank you. I mean, I spend as a naturalist who works. I work a lot in the realm of science. I mean, I'm a big nature nerd. I know, like the nitty gritty, geeky stuff about nature, but. But the thing that really captivates me about nature is where nature and story intersect and where as humans, we've let our imagination come up with a reason. And those reasons are just so magical and spectacular. And they say a lot about us as humans, that we have this creativity. And I think in a world where children are given right now this small little screen that is just full of this kind of, of visual pressure to get sucked into it and not looked up, it's good to put down the screen, go outside and reconnect with those stories and the magic of the natural world. And as parents, what's great about it is you don't have to be an expert on what tree is growing in your backyard or what birds are singing. You can just enter that space with the same magic as your children. And make up a name or make up a story or name it what you want and follow it to a story that you're making up. So I'm all about that. And I think we need more of that in our life. It's freeing. Yeah.
- [34:00]
Jenny Ersin
Yes. And the screens, they give you the story.
- [34:03]
Susie Spickle
Yeah.
- [34:04]
Jenny Ersin
You know, or video game, it gives you the story. And so in this case, you're making up your own story.
- [34:09]
Susie Spickle
Yeah.
- [34:11]
Jenny Ersin
It'S hit. There's a couple more things that are in here that are super common. I ever. We've actually never talked about moss. Moss ever.
- [34:17]
Susie Spickle
Oh, what moss? It's so awesome. Who doesn't love moss? It's so squishy and green and carpety and you just kind of want to lay your head down in it and you imagine, you know, little gnomes living in it or little pixies on it. So I think spending time exploring moss is great. A little simple hand lens. You can look at it. You can make a little moss garden and bring it in inside on a, you know, a little tray or a terrarium. And it's very inviting. And I think for children, it's really scaled for their size. You know, there's like. For a kid to look up at a tree, that's a lot to take in. It's so big. Look up and you as a child can feel overwhelmed by a tree. But to look at a whole little mossy world, that's a really perfect scale for a young child. Child to look at. And again, a little hand lens can help make it look even more enticing.
- [35:13]
Jenny Ersin
Yes. So there's a lot in this book about moss. It's all about just things that are right around you. Forest magic for kids. But, you know, not in the forest. It's. It can be in the forest, but it can be anywhere. And all of these things that, you know, you see, but sometimes you overlook. And you could be more enchanted by it, I think, than you are. And another one of the ideas that I really loved going along with the picnic was making elfin bread.
- [35:37]
Susie Spickle
Yeah.
- [35:37]
Jenny Ersin
So, you know, so many families, like, they're reading the Lord of the Rings, you know, they. They love these stories in their home. And so it's called Lembas.
- [35:45]
Susie Spickle
Yeah, Lembas bread. It's. It's actually mentioned in the Lord of the Rings. So of course, then people, you know that that's actually a book that I've read out loud to my family. The Hobbit, more than the Lord of the Rings. We haven't made it through the Lord of the Rings. But we did make it through the Hobbit together. And just to get into that world and to think that you're eating something that might have been fed to, you know, on the journey the elves gave them to take on their journey, it's a very simple bread. It's sort of like a bannock and you can make it over the fire and. Yeah, I think everybody should make a little bit of lambes and, and enjoy it on a picnic.
- [36:22]
Jenny Ersin
So.
- [36:23]
Susie Spickle
Yeah. And again, connecting the, the natural world to the litter, kind of the literature of storytelling, I think those are just two combinations that go so well together.
- [36:35]
Jenny Ersin
Yes. And then you talk about, you know, the other little different types of picnic things that you can bring along that feel like, like the little elf magical fairy type things. The nuts and the seeds and, you know, the edible flowers and the woodland fruits and you talk about like, those are elfin foods. It just, I guess, I think you said nature delivers. Nature delivers. But if as a parent or as a teacher, you can add in those little extra elements, you know, like making the little fairy door. And it's just a really, I think, good investment in a world that serves our kids stories, even in their video games. I mean, that is a really surprising thing. Like video games just used to be like video games and you're Mario and you're jumping from thing to thing and you're going down a tube and whatever, but now it's like, like there's a whole story element to the video games.
- [37:24]
Susie Spickle
Yeah, I know. I think a lot about that. There's a really big part of farce. Magic is about small world making. It's making little gnome homes or fairy homes or mice villages or little people villages, like small scale worlds. And if you think about what's really compelling for kids in video games is this, this world making. So something like Minecraft or Fortnite, where there's these worlds and these things, or Mario Kart, any of that. But I. Those worlds are created by adults. Children are playing in them, but they're conceived by adults and they kind of are what adults are thinking kids might like. And they're really designed to sell something to you.
- [38:06]
Jenny Ersin
Yeah. And I would say they're pretty accurate. Right, so you say it's what they're thinking kids might like and. But there is a lot of science behind it to like almost ensure that they like it so much that they're not going to go do anything else.
- [38:19]
Susie Spickle
Exactly, exactly. I mean, it is a science. It's. It is a money maker. It's a pro there. People are profiting from the worlds of our children's imagination, but they are limited. Those worlds are limited by what an adult can imagine and what is available in those worlds. Plus, those worlds are on a screen. But if a child goes outside and they. And they build a little world of their own with a little home, it's those fine motor skills where their hands are making stuff. It's problem solving, it's communicating to the other children. This is what I'm doing. This is how I'm building it. It's coming directly out of their mind, out of their own imagination. It might have started with a book they read. It might even start with a video game that they play. They're going to make their own Mario Kart world or whatever, right? But it's then defined and created by the children themselves. And I think that's a lot more powerful than something that a child can experience on a screen. And it's. I' tell you, it's not going to be easy. The first step of getting your kid out there to do it, because those video games are designed to create an addiction and it are so visually accurate for what a child wants to see. But shut it off, go outside and let your child's imagination kind of go with it. And you might have to help them to start, but then it should really become the child's world and it. And that's really empowering for a child.
- [39:47]
Jenny Ersin
I think that's maybe one of the deepest things anyone's ever said on this podcast, that they're profiting from the world of our children's imagination. Yeah, that's really deep because it reminds you that this is a special world and a really unique, powerful, wonderful thing that kids can imagine, like how they imagine. And so it's taking that deep part of childhood, that creativity, and twisting it into a profitable thing in the market and then stealing that, stealing it from them.
- [40:18]
Susie Spickle
And I think in a way it's sort of then, I mean, what are kids, what are kids experiencing on a video game? What's the difference between, like playing in a small world outside versus playing in a video game? You know, they are both going to be entertaining for their child and they're both these kind of overlapping elements. But the outside game, where they're really outside, is truly authentically from a child. It's also multi sensory. When you're outside everything, all of your senses are on fire. When you're inside in a room playing on a little screen with your sticks, just your eyes, your hands kind of like, and your ears. But, you know, outside, they're feeling the. The wind on their skin. They're smelling what's around them. They're discovering surprise discoveries.
- [41:07]
Jenny Ersin
They're.
- [41:07]
Susie Spickle
That's actually, Ginny, how I got into nature, it wasn't from the science. Like, I wasn't a science kid. I actually didn't really like science. I like story. I liked books like the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, or the Rescuers or the Borrowers. I like these small little worlds where you could kind of imagine. And that's what brought me outside. I read those books and thought, wow, all this magic stuff happens in outside. I better get outside and search for it. And in the process of doing that, that's when I would come across a woolly bear caterpillar and be like, what's this? And then. Then it just led me further and further into the natural world.
- [41:48]
Jenny Ersin
And what an interesting thing to. To take it back. To take it back to how it used to be and also to really look at almost like that, the switch out, you know. So instead of Minecraft, go make a little moss. A little moss garden, you know, a little. Make it actually, like, actually make it.
- [42:06]
Susie Spickle
Actually make it, actually do it. Yeah. I work a lot in schools, and I also work a lot in homeschool situations. And I will say, when kids are given the chance to make a little outside world together, they are so excited and it becomes like. Like something they want to go back to and go back to and go back to. And I think we just, as adults need to make sure we're giving them those opportunities and encouraging them to do it. So get outside with your small world makers.
- [42:39]
Jenny Ersin
Yes. And so in this book, on page 37, you have a way to do it with moss. So it's a little mini magical moss garden. And you talk about how to do it and how to make it and, you know, how much to take and what do you put in there? Then what can you add, like, little sand and small pebbles and little bits of dirt and how to, you know, use the spray bottle and you. It says, be creative with your little moss world. Use small rocks to build ledges and cliffs and mix up the different types of mosses to blend the colors and textures. Add some special features to your garden, like small crystals or shells, a special rock, sea glass, even a homemade tiny figure that looks like one of the wild folks. When you're finished, you give it a little squirt of water and this is how you take care of it. That's a beautiful depiction of, of capturing the child's imagination in a way that honors their development.
- [43:29]
Susie Spickle
Yeah, right. And that is so true. I don't, I think sometimes it can feel like we want to rush childhood. You know, we, we have these like mile markers. Oh, they're going to get to here and they're going to do this and I'll do that. But really I can look back now, my kids, I have three kids and my oldest is 25. My youngest is actually 14 tomorrow. But you know, from the perspective of having a 25 year old, you see how fast it goes and then all of a sudden they're not in this magical world of childhood. Like especially from like preschool or a little before, like 2 and 3 years old, all the way up to about 11 or 12 year old. I mean that's just such a, such magical time in life where they are unencumbered by a lot of times of what people think they have. They're still, they're making sense of the world. And sometimes how they make sense of the world is they imagine there's a fairy inside a bubble and it's all okay. They have their whole entire life to learn how the world works. Right. So childhood should really be about childhood and not rushing through it, but taking the time to really kind of celebrate it and enjoy it. And as parents, it can give us back that feeling too where we can feel like, oh my gosh, I remember this or I never did this, but I'm doing it now and I love it. So more power to the child.
- [44:55]
Jenny Ersin
We found something a few summers back called ghost pipes.
- [44:59]
Susie Spickle
Oh, I love those things.
- [45:01]
Jenny Ersin
One time. I've only ever seen them one time. And then I think what your book also does is it shows that not it shows that path toward like this, like this place based education piece of. When you're out there and you find things that bring wonder and spark your imagination, you naturally want to learn more. So we found these ghost pipes. I don't know, it's sort of similar. Like they're not a flower, you know more than I do, but they're clear and white. They're so striking. And apparently I think they only bloom for a day. And everyone was like, what is this? I know it leads to learning.
- [45:38]
Susie Spickle
And the thing that's so cool about that is when you find something you don't know in nature, which could happen every single day, if you slow down and look around you, you don't have to even figure it out. You can make it, make it whatever it is that you want to. Like I do this with insects all the time. The world of insects is overwhelming. There are so many of them and they're so amazing and they're crazy looking and it's really hard to identify them. So I kind of group them in my mind by things that have the same kind of qualities that I've seen throughout. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's that little wood, the one that eats the wood. It's in the wood, you know, and it, it's like these other ones. So, you know, freeing ourselves from having to know everything as a parent and know all the answers. Nature is such a great teacher of that. You know, you are a co learner, a co investigator with your child as they're going along this world.
- [46:35]
Jenny Ersin
And this woman, she, her name is Linda Flanagan, she wrote a book called Take Back the Game about youth sports and sort of our over indulgence in youth sports. And one of the things that she talks about is how we present adulthood. This really stuck with me. She says, do we present adulthood like it's a big bore and all you do is sit on the sidelines in this manicured field and you know, game after game. And so it's interesting like when you bring up things like a fairy garden or fairy ring or the moss and learning about the moss, like I didn't know you talked about how meet the mosses. Green plants with some extraordinary powers and characteristics. Mosses are often small and compact and they grow super slowly. Some grow only one inch every 25 years. So you're learning all this stuff. But to be able to show a child that you can be in your 30s and in your 40s and in your 50s and in your 60s and come across things in everyday nature that you've never seen before.
- [47:36]
Susie Spickle
Yeah, I know their grandmother moss. Right. It's just so, such, so interesting. I want to go back to you said about the, the games and the, the sort of like structured world that we are giving our children. And I think it's such a loss of childhood for them where, I mean, when I grew up we played a lot of sports, but very little of it was supervised by adults. Right. There was nobody telling us the rules. We made the rules work for us. We kind of got into fights, we yelled about it. We had the general idea this is sort of how baseball's played. And then we would make up our own rules. Like I grew up on 1420 East 22nd street in Brooklyn, New York. We had our own rules that might be different on East 22nd street than the kids on East 26th street, you know, but we played it, we figured it out, we got into fights, we managed it. It is not really like that anymore. You know, kids spend time playing soccer and they've got coaches and they've got assistant coaches and they've got parents yellow from the sidelines and they never get to kind of mix it up with each other and figure out that wasn't fair or this didn't feel right. There's always somebody intervening. And I just think, what is that teaching our children to do in the future? Who's going to solve the problems for them when they're an adult? Are you going to look for a coach? I mean, grown ups don't have coaches, right? Or, or we do. But you know, you gotta pay. I don't know, you gotta pay. You gotta pay for your life coach.
- [49:06]
Jenny Ersin
And here's the thing, thing, here is the thing about coaches that I didn't know. I've never done coaching, but my cousin is a coach, so she's a coach and she's been certified as a coach. And so we have this situation and I went to her for advice knowing that you're going to think this is kind of funny, Susie, knowing that she's a coach. So I went and I was like, here's the whole situation. And then she basically said, well, what do you think you should do? And then she said, and I was like, what is this? Like that's not what I thought would happen. And she said that actually is the role of the coach is to try and like coax it out of you. So it, it has to come from you no matter what.
- [49:42]
Susie Spickle
Fascinating.
- [49:42]
Jenny Ersin
If there's nothing there, what do you have to draw on? And I just thought that when you said that they are taking the. They're profiting from the world of our children's imagination. That's the key.
- [49:55]
Susie Spickle
And also like, you know, what are they teaching our children in that? Like they, you know what I mean? It's sort of, I don't know, I'm just not a fan of it and I struggle with it. Like my 14 year old son, he would prefer probably to play on his video game than to go hiking with me, but I don't let him. I mean we have very clear boundaries and rules and, and it is hard work. It is hard work to always be policing that, but it is really important.
- [50:24]
Jenny Ersin
Work and you're always policing it. I just read a book that was talking about how they never sleep. The computer never sleep. It's always waiting for its chance to Pull you in and with all the algorithms, and it knows how your eyes move and what engages you. So, you know, the parent sleeps. The parent has a ton of things that they have to do, and they have to work and they have to help. You know, there's all of these things. And with the computer, it's like, it's one goal. It's one goal is to take your time and to take your imagination. And so it is hard work. But I always remind people of that quote by Kim John Payne, the end of simplicity, parenting, where he says, when you rescue your kid's childhood from stress, you remarkably inevitably, day by day, rescue yourself in return. It's something along those lines. And that's it, right? Because then you're out and you see the fairy ring and you're out and you're learning about the moss. And the moss, it's like, what did you say about the moss? It. Like, I Hear I've had 475. We've probably recorded 500 episodes, Susie, of this podcast. I didn't know about the moss. I didn't know that they eat from the air and can stay green all winter. They reproduce without flowers or seeds, have no stems. They can grow in dark, shady, wet places or on a stone or on a shoe or even on the back of a turtle shell.
- [51:30]
Susie Spickle
I know, right? And, like, that's just full, to me of amazing science and also remarkable opportunity for story. Right. So have your child write about the moss, interview the moss. You know, name the moss, give it a. Give it its character that's based on some of these characteristics that you just talked about. Yeah. I just think nature is an amazing kind of palette for our imagination. And Forest Magic for kids is really about how to kind of open the paint box and go outside. And again, it doesn't require that you have any special knowledge. It is just you and your family going outside and engaging. And I really want to encourage families to let the child be the leader, to be the. The. The pointer, the outer. You know, the somebody who's. Who's noticing the things and take the child's lead.
- [52:28]
Jenny Ersin
Oh, it's wonderful. The book is called Forest Magic for Kids. How to Find Fairies, Make a Secret Fort, and Cook up an Elfin Picnic. It's out now. Be a great one to add to your home for the summer. In the fall, you can get the Book of Fairies. Like you said, nature is a. Is a palette. It's a catalyst. It delivers, it delivers, it delivers. You don't need special knowledge, and you don't need special tools you don't need. It doesn't care cost. It's a very, very minimal cost. And it's everywhere and it happens everywhere.
- [52:55]
Susie Spickle
Right? And it's important. I mean, it's actually a human need. It is deeply embedded in our humanity. To spend time outside and doing it with our families is a really fabulous way to experience it and recharge yourselves.
- [53:12]
Jenny Ersin
Susie what a wonderful opportunity to spend this time together again. Hopefully we'll be back together and in September. Thank you for being here.
- [53:19]
Susie Spickle
Thanks Jenny so much. I'm so excited to be on your podcast.
- [53:25]
Trey Tucker
Are you hungry for guidance about mindset, relationships, health, finances, career decisions and dealing with your past? I'm Trey Tucker, licensed therapist and speaker and host of Rugged, a podcast where I help young men and women navigate life's challenges and find solutions to help them live life lives of service and meaning. In this podcast, you'll learn mindset strategies to harness your thoughts and emotions in ways that help you achieve your goals. I bring a blend of straight talk and empathy, and I'm open to addressing any topic and treating it and the people connected to it with respect and curiosity. Come join us. We have a space for you. Search for Rugged with Trey Tucker wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to hit the follow button. So new weekly episodes are will be delivered straight to your personal podcast feed. My hope is that this podcast will leave you feeling encouraged and empowered to take charge of your life and close the gap between who you are and who you want to be.