← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 485: Allow Childhood to Go Slow | Maggie Dent, Parental as Anything
01:01:08
Loading summary
Transcript50 lines
- [00:01]
Ginny Urich
Hello friends. If parenting has ever felt too fast, too pressured or too noisy, this episode is for you. I am sitting down with the incredible Maggie Dent, Australia's queen of common sense parenting, and this conversation is gold. We talk about going slow, letting kids bloom in their own time and reclaiming what childhood is supposed to be. Maggie doesn't just have the credentials, she has the lived experience and she speaks with clarity, humor and deep conviction. Now, if you've been around here for a while, you know this message. Slow childhood, real connection, individual timelines is at the heart of everything we do. It is also the heartbeat of my brand new book that just came out yesterday, Homeschooling. You're doing it right just by doing it. This isn't just a book for homeschoolers. It's for any parent who wonders, am I doing enough? If you felt the world is rushing your child before they're ready, this book is a big exhale. And it is permission to trust your instincts. Let me step out of the broader conversation for one minute to say this. Publishing is weird. You can pour your heart into a book. Years of experience, stories, research, truth. But whether it makes an impact, that depends almost entirely on how it does in week one. So if you've ever thought, you know what? I should grab Jenny's book, this is the time Early Momentum tells bookstores to stock it, tells publishers the message is worth investing in and helps it land in the hands of more families who need it. It is called homeschooling. You're doing it right just by doing it. Yes, it's for homeschoolers, but also for any parent who's ever worried they were behind or doing it wrong or not doing enough. It is the reset we all need. The quickest way to find it is to type Ginny Urich into your favorite bookshop's search bar. And if you've already got it, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. If you want to go above and beyond, share it, post it, leave a short review. That little bit of effort on your end is a domino and it matters more than you know it. Let's get into it. Here is queen of common sense parenting Maggie Dent.
- [02:02]
Advertisement Speaker
First is Guys Wear that Guys Wear the modern man's clothing brand that makes you feel good to be a guy. Whether you're dropping controversial hot takes in a group chat or trying not to pull a hammy in a pickup game, Verst keeps you cool and comfortable in any situation. That's vrst versed Shop Guys wear now.
- [02:21]
Ginny Urich
Only at Dick's welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich, I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have such a treat for you today. I am a long, long, long time fan of Maggie Dent and she is here with us today. Welcome, Maggie.
- [02:38]
Maggie Dent
Hi, Ginny. That's absolutely so sweet. You know, I keep forgetting that it's a global world we have now. You can find people at the bottom of the earth because I'm in the furthest away you could be from anyone. So I live in New South Wales now, but I grew up on the Wheat button, Western Australia, which is the least populated state in Australia, on a farm with lots of siblings and 10,000 sheep and lots of bush and nature. So the very fact that you even know about me, Denny, just blows my cotton pick in mind, to be honest.
- [03:09]
Ginny Urich
Well, you have, you have been so influential for so many people in the world of parenting. You have 10 major books. The one I have read most recently is called Parental As Anything. You have a six season award winning podcast with the same title. You're also the host of the Good Enough dad podcast. And these books, you know, you're talking about mothering boys. You talk about being a boy champion, from boys to men and real kids in an unreal world. You have all this experience working with kids and with teens and sort of seeing this increase in anxiety and how to deal with it. So I'm really excited to talk with you about so many of these topics today and I know that the audience will be so grateful. You say that you have two really big pieces of advice, especially for new parents and one of them is allow childhood to go slow. Go slow.
- [04:00]
Maggie Dent
I can't stress that enough, Ginny. And also, you know, look, babies and child development, especially in the first five years, is gotta go at the pace of the baby and the child, not at the pace that the world thinks they need to go at. And I've been growling a lot about the fact that we keep on pushing formalised learning in school, schooling done and making the purpose of those first few years to get ready for school. And that only focuses on the fact that there's a brain on a seat and we're raising whole children. So I've been really blessed that I've got now eight grandchildren. So I've been able to go back into toddlerhood and observe it through the lens of an older woman. Although as a mum myself, because I'd grown up on a farm, there was not a lot of hurry. So I think the pressure for parents Today is so much harder. And I want to really acknowledge it up front. It's like there's too much information. There might not have been enough when I was raising mine, but now there's way too much. And a lot of it is not based on the science of child development. It's based on quick fixes or influencers who don't really understand child development. It's focused on consumerism, forcing you to buy stuff to make it easier to be with your kids. Where we know that the number one thing if we want to raise healthy, happy, resilient children is secure attachment in the first five years of life. And that means we've got to spend time with them and we've got to be around them. And we need them to have this beautiful thing called autonomy, which is where they navigate the world around them. Their job from the time they open those eyes is to use all their senses to go, what the heck is that? And that's why one of the things I often say to seminar is if you have a toddler who's taken off the lid of your face cream and is smearing it on the wall and smearing on the carpet and smearing it on the dog and smearing on a. On their face, that is actually like a scientific experiment, and their brain is just popping like, oh, it's different when you put it on the dog to my face. It is not a child being naughty. And I think when we reframe that, you react very differently to when those things happen. When they have their meltdowns, that's a sign that their autonomy is growing and they're developing. Well, it's not a sign that you're a lousy parent. And I think it's the reassurance. I think over the years, as an older, wiser woman, I've come to be a voice of common sense, you know? And the other one that I think will land with anyone who's got toddlers, particularly mums, is how slow the toddler daughter is. You know, from the car to your front door, you know, 20 minutes. That's a little toddler exploring the world with fascination. He's not. He or she is not trying to be annoying because you want to get dinner cooked. And I think when we reframe that. And that's why I so love the work you're doing, because it's very similar to that. It says, give them the time, give them the outside environment. Give them stuff that's so they can start wiring that brain into being a curious brain. But also A clever brain down the.
- [07:07]
Ginny Urich
Track, go slow, a slower timeline. You talk about how these are all one off miracles. So parenting is never a perfect art. You let them develop naturally. So you do talk about. And you, you talk very succinctly, very clear about this formalized learning being pushed into the younger years. You wrote, we must stop stealing childhood in the name of education. And you told this really funny, but relatable. It was such a relatable story, Magg, where you, you're sending your oldest, your oldest is, is going to go to school. And you grew up on the farm, right? You've got four boys. So you've got a lot of probably chaos at home and kids and loud. And so this is your oldest one showing up at school at the beginning. And you wrote he could only write the shortened version of his name, like, okay, it's fine. But then he sits down next to a girl and she's reading Charlotte's Web. And I thought, it's such a funny story, Maggie, because I think everybody can relate to that. It's not like she's Even just reading Dr. Seuss or Brown Bear. Brown Bear. What do you see when she's reading Charlotte's Web? You know, a chapter book. How do we deal with that pressure? There's a lot of pressure, right? You don't want your kid to be embarrassed. You don't want to be embarrassed the other kid. You know, it seems way further beyond. It's a lot to deal with.
- [08:32]
Maggie Dent
There's another layer to that as well, Jenny, is that I was a high school English teacher, so I have actually taught illiterate boys, you know, so you can imagine how I panic then going, oh my God, I've failed my son. I think one of the things, you know, you touched on that other statement. I say that every single child is a one off, unique miracle. And unfortunately we can't see the epigenetics, we can't see the ancestry that's flowing through them. We can't see the personality, the temperament. It all evolves. The tendency and predisposition to be able to decode language can happen in about 1% of children, mainly girls, but very rarely a boy. And we also know that boys are cognitively well behind our girls at birth. So they are going to. If I'd known that, I probably wouldn't have panicked quite as much. But I think what we've done is in Australia, we stole the age of five. So five year olds used to do possibly two and a half days and it was play based. They were Mainly outside. So that particular boy had gone to a beautiful, what I call a community kindergarten which was not linked to a school. So it was really just beautiful. And I, I don't even know, you know that they came in out of the sand pit or the cubby house or the. Anyway and beautiful actually she was a Montessori trained German woman who was very, very firm and strong. And I said to her like about towards the end of the school, you know, the year, I said look, I've just noticed my son doesn't come into the story very often to listen. Is that a problem like? And she said he's not ready, Maggie. And I'm thinking, well hello, you've only got a couple more months and then he's off to school. She said. Then she came over to me about two or three weeks later and said, guess who came and joined us on the mat. Right. Because what it is is emergent development, not forced like mergent independence and readiness rather than what we're doing now is forced to. And I've had people reach out just recently thinking they need to get tutoring for their four year olds and that just. There's a part of my heart that almost breaks in that space. So what the education system does, it just is a one size fits all, okay? It's going to give you the curriculum. Everyone is expected to be able to handle that. So we know that there's that cognitive difference with our boys. But we also know children who haven't been read to will come with less language which makes it also harder for the teacher to treat them as one size fits all. Then we have our neurodivergent children who are got all sorts of different challenges while they're trying to navigate the school environment. And then the children have experienced trauma. You know, all of those things mean that how that child turns up is very, very different. Which is also why in Australia we've had a huge swing back towards homeschooling because so many children are finding that environment just far too stressful to navigate and that when they feel safer they learn more. See that we've got to remember happy, calm children learn best. And so that's the environment. I think we've got so much stress they're not learning as well. And I think we've both got really big concerns around the pace of results for Australia. And we used to be really high on the list. But since we've stolen the age of five, which many children are only just over four, then we've actually created a system that's causing more children to dislike learning and dislike school and struggle and then have poor self belief. So we're actually really not letting them having what I call that emergent opportunity to stretch and grow and become, you know, their own person in their own time. So it's a biggie. And there's nothing easy about it. We've got teachers leaving in droves for the very same reason that we're not recognizing we have to change what we're doing. We're still very much based on behaviorism in our schools, which still means that you have to punish the child who can't sit still. And we know, we know that that's actually a stress response now. And so what do you do when you punish a child who's already distressed and stressed? You make it worse. You don't make it easier for them. So I'm blessed to have a very loud voice because teachers are not allowed to speak up, neither early childhood educators. So they contact me and I'll be their voice because I know that we can do it better. Ginny and I know that if we could just recognize that play, especially in free autonomous play with other children, is what we really need our children to be doing more in those early years before they even get into any, you know, fixed environment. It actually is what builds the social and emotional learning. And that's why we're now having to run programs, you know, in year three, four and five for children who, who lack in those areas. And I go, no, we stole play out of their childhood as well, right? We give them a screen to keep them quiet. And so now we've got another layer that's harder for teachers to connect with and that we've got digital natives who have not moved their bodies enough. So not only does that mean their brain is not as clever, it means that their balance is not as good. Their gross motor control and fine motor control is not as gross. You've got to swing out of trees and hang off things to actually be able to pick up a pencil. And I think I love the fact many OTs say to me, sometimes occupational therapists, you sure you didn't do ot, Maggie? And I said, no, it's common sense that the way the brain is learning actually needs movement of the physical body in space within all the senses being activated. For a child to be able to grow in a way that's healthy, that will mean they could possibly transition into, you know, school at an age appropriate time for that child.
- [14:05]
Ginny Urich
It's really interesting that you said we've Stolen the age of five. I spoke last year at a school board meeting in the school district that I grew up in, that my brother is a teacher at. And they are giving kids one 20 minute recess in the afternoon. This is for elementary school. And then a small recess that was combined with lunch. They didn't, they couldn't really see how long it was because it was combined with lunch. But this one 20 minute recess starting at age 4, like you said for the young fives program, who's making the decisions? Maybe it's somebody in their 30s, maybe it's somebody in their 50s in the teachers, just like you said, even here in America now. I went and spoke at the school board meeting. I'm not a part of the district. I brought a big stack of books with me. I was given three minutes of time. But the teachers there were scared too. They were sending anonymous comments in with retired teachers who would get up and speak and say, anonymous teacher from this building. And they wouldn't even give their names. They're so scared to say anything. But the people who are making the decisions, let's say they're 37. There is not a big difference between 37 and 38 or 36 or even 32. So I think there's this thought of like, well, who cares if they're five or six or four? But you say we've stolen the age of five. Can you talk about why that matters so much?
- [15:18]
Maggie Dent
Oh, golly. Just is so, so big. Because there are stages in child development where our children, you know, have to learn, you know, that they're separate from us and that their own being and that in that place they also. The ability to socialize doesn't kick into over three, which is kind of. So many people want to put their children into early childhood so they'll be social. They're not actually capable, they're not really capable of sharing cognitively until towards 5. So we keep having expectations that are developmentally actually inappropriate and possibly harmful. So that year of five was when a lot of things started to happen in those shorter timeframes. Early childhood educators could identify those children who needed some more support in certain areas and were able to build that in through a largely play based activity. And then that child, when we start formalised learning, has got more lights on, ready to go. And that's a really big part of it. That last year is where the play will shift into much more sophisticated play. And I keep on singing from the rooftops that if you want to raise a healthy child, what you need to focus on is where can they play with multi age children of all genders for as long as possible in the outside world with complete autonomy, probably within a screaming distance of one safe adult, you will have a child who will be unbelievably prepared for life. And why is that? Is that when you remove the adult, older children are biologically wired to then become those responsible. You don't even have to tell them. They immediately become the one that's keeping an eye on younger children. Younger children then follow the lead of older children in how they stretch with their play, the language used, resolving conflict. They become a mini teaching environment and we've just decided they're not capable of that and they are just so much smarter. And then by five so many of these things are now overlapping into a place of I'm ready to be able to be away from my key safe caregiver without necessarily being frightened.
- [17:28]
Ginny Urich
You know that feeling when you're standing in the snack aisle squinting at a label that says Natural Flavors but gives you zero clue what that actually means? Yeah, I was so over that. That is why I love Thrive Market. My go to online grocery store for getting all of my healthy essentials delivered right to my door. No crowds, no label confusion, and no junk. Thrive market bans over 1,000 harmful ingredients, so I know I'm getting clean products without having to turn into a nutritionist. Their Healthy Swaps scanner is a game changer. I just scan a product I used to buy and it recommends a cleaner version instantly. I've swapped out sugary snacks for simple meals, crackers, chomps, beef sticks, and lesser evil popcorn. And guess what? My kids don't even know the difference. In fact, they love the products from Thrive Market even more. Plus I love their Buy it Again feature. It makes reordering our favorite items super easy. And since I can't always find the things I want locally, Thrive makes it stress free with auto ship. Go check them out. You're going to be hooked. Ready to make the switch? Go to thrive market.com 1000hours for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T H R I V E market.com 1000hours thrivemarket.com 1000hours.
- [18:45]
Okay, true story.
- [18:47]
Once the temps started rising, I realized I was right back in my same old rotation. You know the one that worn out tank top and those overworked shorts. So I finally gave my daily uniform a little upgrade with Quince. Let me tell you, this brand gets it. Quince has pieces that are simple, elevated and somehow make you feel totally put together without even trying. I've been absolutely loving the 100 European linen shorts and dress I got, which I paired up with their super cute Italian leather platform sandals for some of my speaking engagements this spring. It is all beautiful, breathable and built for real life. And here's the best part. Quince costs 50 to 80% less than similar brands. How they work directly with top artisans and cut out the middlemen so you get luxury without the crazy markup. Plus, everything is made in safe, ethical factories using premium fabrics and finishes. Feel good, look good. It's a win win. Treat your closet to a little summer glow up with quince. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside go ahead. Your summer self.
- [19:58]
Advertisement Speaker
Well, thank you Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Ebglis. After an initial dosing phase of 16 weeks, about 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.
- [20:17]
EBGLIS Lebricizumab LBKZ, a 250mg 2ml injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults in children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. Ebglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Ebglis. Before starting ebglis. Tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief.
- [20:52]
Ask your doctor about epglis and visit epglis.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979.
- [21:00]
Maggie Dent
You know, like I said, I actually in 2013, oh my God, that's 12 years ago. I got so fired up I I asked for feedback from parents, teachers and allied health professionals, including pediatricians, around your concerns, around what I'm saying. This is what's happening with five year olds now. It's full time, shorten playtime, shorten lunchtime. Anyway, I got a massive lot of them so I put them all together and put a submission. I flew to Canberra, which is where our federal government is, to see the federal minister. He didn't even give me the time of day, so one of his office staff took it and probably I never heard a breath from it then. So the same thing is it's not being recognized at the place where we make decisions. And you're quite right. So who makes the decisions around curriculum in our countries? Have they actually been in a classroom now? I was in a classroom for up to 15 years. I know the ins and outs of engagement with children, you know, at all sorts of levels and I'm looking at that. So we're delivering more content of a more boring nature with more structure, with less autonomy, less fun, less movement, less play. And you're expecting better results.
- [22:14]
Ginny Urich
Yeah.
- [22:14]
Maggie Dent
So you're right. Who makes the decisions? Have they ever been in a classroom? Because just recently in Western Australia, the government was, it was an election, you know, thing. And so one of his, the premier decided that we'll make full time for 4 year olds at school. So instead of those being it's usually two and a half days spread over a week, we're going to make it full time because that'll help more working parents. Well, I mean, and then it's in a school environment that's not in an environment with early childhood educators who know some of those four year olds are not going to be toilet trained. Some of them are still needing help with, you know, we need a nap. So they know how to navigate that age group in their environments because it's suited for that environment. You put them in a school environment, they only have one teacher, possibly one aide, and now we're going to have them for five full days. Whereas our five year olds are struggling in the first six months of five year. And I was just so grateful. Yeah, I might have jumped up and down and got really cross because all the academics in early childhood reached out to me, the associations in early childhood reached out to me and said, Maggie, can you please start the ball rolling while we get all our statements ready? But this will be detrimental to children because this is where anxiety comes from, pushing them too much too soon for the reason to save money. And I'm going, no. Child development cannot be let at the mercy of Economic sustainability. And then of course, for those parents who work long hours, what happens at 3 o' clock when the school finishes? You've now got to find after school care, which means another grown up. So that means they've got to become securely attached to at least two other adults at 3 1/2 to 4 years of age. Ridiculous.
- [23:57]
Ginny Urich
And then like you said, their bodies are filled with stress hormones all day long. And then, you know, they get home and then your connection there is going to be strained way harder.
- [24:06]
Way, way harder.
- [24:08]
I want to read what you wrote. This book is phenomenal. Parental as anything. One of just 10 incredible books by Maggie. First of all, you say your son went on to get two degrees at university and is now a successful lawyer, so it did not matter that he was not reading Charlotte's Web. But you wrote a significant number of 4 year olds have already decided yes, whether they are smart or dumb, good or bad, and that these mindsets are difficult to shift.
- [24:33]
Maggie Dent
That came from Carol Dweck's research in her mindset book. When I read that, I went, that is so true. Because what is the word? They're basing their new beliefs on their experience. So if I'm unable to do these things, like if boys are unable because they're fine motor control is well behind girls, unable to color within the lines and unable to write their name, then over a period of time that will translate into I must be dumb. And that mindset becomes a filter for future learning. That was just mind blowing. Right? And at the end of the day, it's very difficult to change a negative mindset in a child. You know, I worked in counseling a lot and when a child's decided that is it, it's very, very difficult. And it'd be heartbreaking for parents because if their readiness to decode language kicks in at say seven, but they've already had such a negative experience around learning to read, then they won't actually have a go. So therefore they can't master something they possibly can master because they've given up.
- [25:31]
Ginny Urich
We didn't start any formal learning until our kids were seven. Then what happens is all the kids, every single one, as soon as they hit about that seven, eight, you know, and some kids, friends of ours, maybe even nine, 10, then they got a book with them everywhere they go. You don't see them without a book.
- [25:46]
Maggie Dent
No, I know.
- [25:47]
Ginny Urich
Whatever it is that they like, do you just wait? And it is hard because people do judge you. But then it ends. Nobody cares. No one's asking your son who's a successful lawyer. If he could read Charlotte's Web when he was five. No one's ever asked him that.
- [26:01]
Maggie Dent
No matter. And it's really interesting because even in high school, classic boy, you know, really not interested in English. You know, math's great. Love that. Social studies, because it was a surfing, you know, teacher English, like, you know, and every now and then I am still teaching and I'm going, you've got to read the text, you know, because there'll be assignments, basically. So no, no, I'll go and ask the girls what it's about. Right. Like he just coast. He just scraped through. I have no idea how he did it. But what's really funny is a lawyer, his level of English is just way beyond mine. And if I write anything, he'll correct it for me. And I'm thinking, what a joke this is. The boy that hardly read anything. The only thing he read were books about football or something. He didn't. He's never read fiction. But because in his law, he's forever reading bucket loads of text. His actual understanding. It just blows me away. Blows me away.
- [26:54]
Ginny Urich
And I think if, as a parent, you could look to the future and think, well, if, if I knew. That's the problem is you don't know. You know, if you knew, like, okay, my son is going to turn out to be this person, then you could expel all your worries. But you have to try and make that choice in the moment to expel your worries and to enjoy them as they are today. A significant message. Allow childhood to go slow. And number two, so two most significant messages for new parents. Slow childhood. And number two, prioritize play. Can you talk about what's happening? It's a global thing.
- [27:26]
Maggie Dent
Yeah.
- [27:27]
Ginny Urich
We have pushed out play to the detriment of the child.
- [27:31]
Maggie Dent
Yeah. Oh, it just so makes me kind of sad because, you know, I, you know, as a girl on a country school, our recess was half an hour and our lunch was an hour. And now, you know, you're really lucky if they get 20 minutes and they have to fit their feeding into that too. And then what we did is we in Australia, we followed the American lead that decided that your playgrounds that we'd had forever were too dangerous. So the monkey bars and those sorts of things that you could hide, you know, swing on and seesaws, all got ripped out. So therefore we put all these plastic fantastic playgrounds in to keep children safe. And really what then happened is that the play was contained into a structured environment that was very predictable. And unfortunately, life is not predictable. And so the very fact that every single playground had exactly the same height and the steps to go up to the slide, you might not think that's a big thing, but what we know is that the brain needs uneven surfaces, it needs wobbly surfaces because that's how the cerebellum gets to be better. And that's the tumbling, balancing and spinning and rolling, all the things that you, you can't do that in a plastic fantastic playground. And so we took, you know, we'd started to really get worried too, that children shouldn't get hurt and shouldn't, shouldn't get dirty and those two things. Then this is the number one reason why our children are so less resilient than previous generations is that is exactly how their body learns how to make a better choice next time. And I love it that we, we started to identify that. The science started to come through from play that shows that our children's early warning system is very powerful and actually very accurate. But when a parent's fear overrides the child's early warning system, we terrorize them about things that they actually were not frightened of and probably could handle. Even though you can watch them go up steps sometimes and their little foot will go up and down and it look not quite ready for the next step, Right. And if you leave them instead of saying, oh, you need to get down, that's too high for you, then that child will come back to that next time and go to the next step and then its foot will do that at the next step. They are wired to assess risk, but we don't believe them. And then there are times, you know, that they'll go too fast or they misjudge something, there will be a discomfort, they will hurt themselves. And unfortunately, many parents feel that's a sign I'm a lousy parent. And unfortunately, it's actually the sign you're a really good enough parent. Because every time a child does that, they also learn how it feels to hurt themselves, how it feels to recover from it, how it feels to go back and be brave a bit more. And all of those things don't happen if they never have those opportunities. You know, I'm a really firm believer in the long monkey bars, Ginny, because no child can conquer them for ages. Why? Because they don't have strong enough grip, their wrists aren't strong enough, their shoulder girdles aren't strong enough. So every time they do it, they get a little bit stronger. And every time they will have to fall down because I cannot hold it anymore. But you know what? You don't have to have a prize or a sticker waiting for them because the motivation comes from within. And this is what we want from all children. We've over rewarded them, over praise them. And so now they don't want to do anything unless they get something. And so that's the big message. And that motivation, where does that come from? In the monkey bar. My sibling can do it. That's a great one, isn't it? Or a kid you don't like, man, you can. You want to sneak out at night and practice on that one. And then the third one is a kid that's smaller than you, Right. And so what happens is a child's motivations from within and when they conquer it. Now this is a really important message for all parents. There's a peak moment of success that does not need rewarding and it shifts the way they see themselves. It's the same as riding a bike without trainer wheels that first time. Peak moment of success. And I think what we've done is we've over parented, we've removed those peak moments of success, right? Because we're still too fearful that they will hurt themselves. Because I actually was part of the Nature Play movement in Western Australia before I moved over here. And there were three very loud advocates who we became good friends. One's a president of the Nature Play Movement. Another one is Kids safewa, and that's the organization that assesses playgrounds for safety. Anyway, she took me aside one day and she said, oh, she's a country person. And she said, oh, look, I just want to tell you, Maggie, as you go forward, you know how we want to put more logs and more big rocks and things around everything. So when I assess a playground that's not assessed because that landscaping, she gave me a wink. So what we started to do is put logs and big rocks around the plastic fantastic playgrounds. And what were kids doing? They were climbing on that. They weren't on the plastic playground anymore. And then we also gave this really important message is that whenever you do a playground, where's the opportunity for autonomous play where they can move stuff around? So the good news is we use a lot of wood chips and a lot of sand. So before you know it, you've got kids who are actually playing in the wood chip in the sand, creating pathways or tunnels. And so we started to recognize that it's not just building the material out of nature, it was the unexpected nature of how it turned up and that they needed things like hills. Little hills is where the tumbling and balancing and rolling happens. Sitting on top of a hill for a toddler, it's a peak moment of success and it's been amazing. Western Australia led the whole of Australia. Our most fantastic playgrounds. They would shock most Americans. And I have been beside some on holiday going, is that legal? And we're going, yeah, yeah, well, that is legal. And also schools. So now all our schools have gone into the same thing. So what also happened, which I love, is that school reluctance and absenteeism dropped dramatically the more exciting the playground. So the kids who can't achieve as well academically couldn't wait to get to play on the play equipment. That was now exciting. So you were getting reluctant boys turning up back at school because you can't teach them if they don't turn up. And then what happened is the consequence the, the increase in confidence in the classroom. Right. The all those sorts of things that in actual fact the learning outcomes improve because we gave them more interesting play opportunities where they, yes, they could, you know, sometimes hurt themselves. So it's been so exciting.
- [34:01]
Advertisement Speaker
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent to today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.
- [34:26]
Ginny Urich
The Starbucks summer Berry Refresher is officially back. Bold notes of raspberry, blueberry and BlackBerry shaken with ice and poured over raspberry flavored pearls. Try it with lemonade or coconut milk. Available for a limited time. Your summer berry refresher is ready at Starbucks.
- [34:41]
Advertisement Speaker
This mailchimp for rific jingle is brought to you by mailchimp mailchimp your marketing with AI and more advanced automations to.
- [34:49]
Maggie Dent
Connect to your store.
- [34:51]
Advertisement Speaker
Mailchimp your marketing and boost your clicks Multi channel campaigns now with SMS light slit mailchimp your marketing today with the number one AI powered email marketing and automation platform Intuit. Mailchimp number one based on publicly available data on competitors customers plans vary. SMS available as add on visit mailchimp.com.
- [35:12]
Maggie Dent
And I think one of the other things that excites the heck out of me because I've now got little ones again is being able to watch the capacity of toddlers with their autonomous opportunities for play. I think a lot of parents Feel I've got to be with them and I've got to keep asking them questions and I've got to keep structuring the play. And you don't. Sometimes they just want you nearby while they do whatever they do. And every now and then they look up all they want to smile. They don't necessarily need to be drowned in anything. So I went one day with my. He was just not quite too. So probably 19, 20 months old. We were going to the playground with the pram and it bucketed down with rain. So I hid under a giant Norfolk island pine tree. And when it stopped raining, my little grandson came, started coming out and picked up those fronds, you know, those long fronds from the pines. And. And he picked up one and then he picked up one in the other hand. And then he. Then he realized he could put two, two of them in each hand. And I'm watching him like, whoa, I got two. And then he picked up one more and he got three, like. And I'm looking at him and then. So he went over to the path and he put them across each other like it looked like a picture. And then he went and got more and brought them over. And then in, like, I think it was nearly 40 minutes, he was starting to line them up in different ways on the footpath. And I have not said a word. He was fully engaged in play that he created out of what he found on the ground. And my heart could have almost. God, I was there, like, nearly happy tears because he was modeling everything I keep on saying about children in nature. You know, they don't always need the shiny plastic equipment, they just find something else and the, the gathering of sticks and conky nuts and nuts off trees and stones. Oh, my God. All of my children say go, you know, when mum's been around, because there's more treasures under the bed. And the very fact that they can use nature as a treasure. Yeah, that makes me. That makes me pretty happy, Jenny.
- [37:10]
Ginny Urich
And what a thing as a parent. You know, when you have a one and a half year old, 19 months, 20 months, you're exhausted. And so if there is something that will keep their attention for 40 minutes, where maybe you could read a little book or you could just sit and take some deep breaths and look up at the clouds. Like, this is all what we're clamoring for, right, is a little bit of reprieve and nature offers it to. To the parent while also engaging with the child and in a way that they're not on a screen or they're not on some AI device. And it really is such a win win. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing. When you talk about just decline, you've seen the decline in skills. You talked about how in the last 20 years that physical passivity. So here's the last 20 years. An Australian study from 2019 found that there has been an, an 80% drop in children's capacities to jump, hop, skip and slide in just 20 years, just two decades. Physical passivity does not only impact physical well being, but it also impacts our brain's capacity to integrate complex sensory and spatial information. And so you're talking about displacement in terms of how technology is taking up a lot of the time that kids used to spend playing. And you also Talked about how 3 year olds are having back problems because they're not hanging from the monkey bars and they're not climbing trees and they're not developing that stronger shoulder girdle, so they're starting to have back pain and that the physical movement helps the emotional brain discharge cortisol. There are so many benefits here that kids are missing out on when they don't play. And you talk about how it's just become, it's like an accessory, like if we can get to it, fine, but.
- [38:54]
Maggie Dent
If we can't, it's what kids do when they're not doing anything valuable and they go, no, no, this is the bit that's a value. And I guess because you can't, you can't measure, can't measure those things, but I can tell. So obviously I take my grandkids to the playgrounds a lot. Fortunately, now I've got a couple of tweens, so that's probably not going to happen as much. But when we go on weekends, particularly in Sydney, which is a big city, you know, on the weekends, this is another shift that's happened in our society is there's no women there anymore, they're dads. And dads are turning up with babies tied on their tummy and prams and toddlers and they're just racing around, they're just, they're doing their bit and I'm, I'm watching them because they actually allow our children usually to stretch a little bit further than our mums. Right. And so in actual fact, that was always a part of childhood. Dad was the one who would throw you up or rough and tumble or whatever you call that play and roughhousing is this. And so if you don't have those little opportunities, your childhood doesn't get to the edge. Of their fear and then realize they were okay. So the increase in anxiety, the anxiety is sometimes fed by an over anxious parent trying to be the perfect parent, trying to make sure their child is always dressed well and is, you know, never hurt. And in resilience, their capacity to adapt to things that are challenging comes from having met some of those things. When they were younger, there was a school that was going to ban handstands because a child hurt themselves. And I, I said, why don't we just cancel breathing? You know, like it could, you know, they could anyway. So once again, let's not have chasing as a game in school. Well, where we have it isn't on the basketball court, it's over on the lawn. And then we need to acknowledge that sometimes children are going to run into each other. They always have. And our job is to be able to go back and apologize and go, so sorry, I didn't mean to do that intentionally. Hurting other children. Absolutely. But do you know what? That's really not a sign. When children have played a lot, they automatically want to. Oh, so sorry. Can we. You. Okay, let's keep going. And so I feel like there's a shift gradually happening definitely in our school environments around where we have the lunchtime. So what they're tending to do now is to bring it forward. So about 11, 11:30, the kids are actually able to play for a longer period. And then they eat their lunch because by then everyone is starving. So they actually eat the lunch, then go back into class and then when they come out for the other break, you know, they have snip and crunch and stuff whenever they're thirsty or hungry. That one's the shorter one, which would normally be where lunchtime is around one and that's a reverse. They have the, they basically go out to play, you have something to drink and eat, then you go back to class. So what we're creating in those opportunities is you won't have hangry kids in class because so often our boys won't finish their lunch because they want to get out and play. So we have hangry boys who won't learn, who get very restless with their body because movement is a way that boys reset their nervous system. And so I'm loving that we're looking at it a little more creatively in our school environments because if you're homeschooling, then you're building that flexibility and constantly, you just know, right. And really, to be honest, the amount of schooling that you need to fit into a homeschooling day is probably in the morning, you know, because of the disruptions in the main school day. It means we have to take the whole day to fit the same amount in. So we. It gives them more opportunity for that free play and stuff. And I like the other one. I like to see in some schools they weren't good for a while is the loose parts. Remember I talked about how important autonomy is. So we've got some now that will bring all sorts of things, whether it's rocks or it's pallets of wood or it's poly pipes or whatever. They bring a pile of stuff that looks like a rubbish dump. What happens is that over time children have more negotiated play and long term play. And this also happens when schools have opened up the bush area like that. They usually fence it off in case there's a snake. And of course I'd go to some of these schools and they've built, you know, big tunnels and they've got wooden things and they've really built a lovely nature playground with unpredictability. And then I'll look at it and saying, what about that area over there? And they look at me like, oh, well, I didn't think they'd want to play there. And so they've moved the fence. So next time I visit, the teachers will take me so proudly through because the whole area has got bases and cubbies and weird stuff all the way through. That is where the play keeps on continuing to evolve through the conversations and the words of the kids. This is where we learn to have the ability to communicate and to negotiate or to have ideas. You don't get that off the screen, you don't get that off a fixed playground. And it's like, oh my gosh, it just makes my heart sing because I knew that was going to happen. And yeah, none of them saw a snake either. So that was. But then what we did, we talked about that. What do you do? How do you know it's a snake? How do you know it's a lizard? You know, so we prepare children for that without necessarily saying there might be one. So you can't go there for the rest of your life. And I do remember one of my sons, there was a large bush area at their primary school and they weren't allowed until year three. So in other words, you had to be kind of 8 to 9. And the teachers avoided going in as much as possible because they recognize it was a really significant area. And I remember one of my boys nearly had pneumonia and wanted to go to school because he didn't want to miss playing in the bush area that day because their bass was going into a new, exciting evolution. Right.
- [44:38]
Ginny Urich
It's so enticing. They want to play. This book is so good and all the things that you have out are so good. If you are needing reminders, you go to Maggie Dent. You got the podcast. I'll put all the links in the show notes. But the two podcasts that you could listen to all of these different books. One of the things that you're really passionate about is resilience, building resilience. And you talk about allowing kids to do things for themselves. And what I thought was interesting is that with a lot of the AI toys and a lot of the just embedded chips and also the video games, you talk about that too. That those sort of fake play digital things, they don't allow kids the chance to be disappointed and learn how to understand and navigate that.
- [45:19]
Maggie Dent
Oh, my goodness. So in Australia, apparently you don't have the game pass the parcel. So in Australia, it's been part of birthday part forever. And that is you wrap up a parcel with lots of layers and you have music and when the music stops, that child unwraps the parcel. So in the olden days, they just unwrap the parcel and then when they get near the middle, there's a prize. Only one person gets a prize. Well, no, somebody decided that was too painful for children at birthday parties. So they. Everyone gets prizes now anyway. Why is that a challenge? Is that under five is where you need to understand and learn the emotional buoyancy around disappointment and not getting what you want. And I think a lot of parents have gone, you know, from the extreme where we were very, very parenting was very harsh, punishment was big shaming was common, Shut down feelings into what we call more respectful, responsive parenting based on attachment theory. They're worried that if a child gets upset that that bond will break. Right. They might that that really important bond of attachment, secure attachment's not broken because you say no biki before dinner. Right. That is exactly what our children need to feel secure. And I'm really, really blessed that I have really beautiful friendships with Janet Lansbury and Tina Payne Bryson and Susan Stiffelman and Mona Denohek. And we all come from a very similar space of they actually need us to be parents. And that those parent moments, we hold the ground, we don't have to shout or scream or yell or hit or anything. We just go, no, I know you want a Bicky, but we're not having a cookie before dinner. And we Just let them cry. We don't rescue them from it, but it's not easy to do. So that's the same every time. A child has got used to the fact that sometimes in a game I'm going to lose whatever that game is. And we acknowledge doesn't losing feels yucky, doesn't it? We don't like it either, but it's going to happen in life and that's our job, is to let those things happen. Another really big one in that space because I'm also. I have a background in death and dying. I worked in palliative care and was a death doula. And then I worked in funerals. And one of my big challenges was watching people navigate the loss of a loved one. And there was such a noticeable difference between certain families and when I dived into it, and those were the families that had had the death of a pet quite early on or they'd had something else like, you know, that had to shift. You know, even moving house and community is a grieving process. So in other words, the children had been a part of it and had felt it and had moved through it. So one of my things I say in my resilience seminar is I really would love you all to get a guinea pig, because guinea pigs don't live long. And then when it dies, there's this beautiful. And people are going, oh my God, did she say get the kids? Because the concept of death, you could read a picture book, but until a child feels their heartache because they've lost something they've stroked and loved, they have no concept of what that might be like. Now, if the first death experience they have is 16, when a friend dies in a car accident or due to suicide, that can completely disable that child's learning for a number of years because they haven't got a familiarity about what is this process. So once again, overprotecting children really creates bigger problems later. And we actually have, you know, and your figures. I already had them in my latest book, Help Me Help My Teen. The struggles and mental health for our twins and teens today is astronomical. Right? And we can't all just blame the harmful content that they're exposed to on social media and the exposure to pornography. We can't just blame that. We have to look at what we stole out of childhood, which gave them opportunities to fail, to get hurt, to have grazed knees and to overcome it. We also stole that ability for parents to have more time to connect with their kids. Because our phones, you need a phone now to Be able to navigate your child's school life, whether they get lunch or go order a doctor's appointment or when are they playing sport or Wednesday music lesson or. And in other words, you're forever on a phone as well, which is not face to face communication. So I think we're breaking the bond of connection due to the digital world and we've got to be able to keep those boundaries in place because it's going to be here forever. But when you put that together, our number one need is connection and love. So how am I able to do that in a very busy world where both parents have to work because everything is really difficult and in a world with far more negative, you know, let's be really honest, the messaging out there in the world is pretty scary for our kids and our all grown ups. And I'm in Australia and I'm impacted. So I think we really have to recognize that we need to have age appropriate conversations around the things that are happening. Not hoping they won't hear about it because the worst place to hear about a death in a community is from another kid on the school bus. It needs to be us. So it's another thing I talk about down the track. You're the one that needs to have awkward conversations, awkward conversations about body safety that no one's allowed to touch their body without their permission, especially their private parts. And people say, oh, I don't want to break their innocence, I'm sorry, but we've had a massive increase in child on child sexual abuse and many of those are coming from siblings because they've watched pornography. So we actually have to have the conversations probably earlier than ever in order for them to know what to do if it happens. And isn't it sad, Ginny, that we didn't have. It's kind of wasn't such a big thing before. But when children have seen pornography, it's natural to want to be able to put it into their play. And we have to be the people that have the voice that prepared them for it and know what to do about it. So it's. To be honest, I think it's harder to be a parent today than ever before. Pressures are harder. More information, more judgment. It is so much harder. You know, that's why I probably will keep on keeping on and the people. The reason I put the Parental as Anything book together was we hear a good podcast, don't we? And we go, I love those three points. I'll remember those. But in a busy brain that's got 58 cogs open, trying to remember everything you will forget. So I decided, okay, I'm going to go to the main things that I know parents want to know about in that first 12 years of life. Whether it's transitioning to big school, whether it's death and loss, whether it's. Is this anxiety? Do I need to worry or not? How do I talk about bodies and things? Let's put it in one. Let's put it in one book that when you get that moment, there it is. I can go to the index. It's got hot tips at the back if you're really busy. But it will explain it in a way. And I keep on running into people saying it is possibly the best book just because it's not about. It's not just one topic. You've covered so many that I want to get an idea of without having to read a whole book. Because I write big books. And that can be annoying, too, but. And I. I love it. It's kind of like a little Bible that people just have on the side. When I wonder what Maggie says, I wonder what she says about it. Because that's that voice of. As you said, voice of common sense on common themes. Because I get asked the same things over and over again, and that's why I knew they were the things we needed to address. Yeah. In that one book. Because who's got time to listen to six full seasons of Parental as anything to find out. Which was that episode that I talked about. That.
- [52:54]
Ginny Urich
And the breadth of it really does come out, because you're talking about teens here. Like, you were just talking about cyber safety and sexting, which is now considered flirting by some young people. So, you know, you have that in the same chapter as Brexting, which is, you know, being on the phone while you're breastfeeding your child. So. And that they need to learn about facial mapping and micro movements in the face. Nothing will ever replicate real human interaction. So the book has such a breadth to it in terms of what's in there. You wrote, if basic development is displaced by technology and our children are less active and not playing as much with real children in the real world, this will come at a cost. And when you're talking about resilience, you're talking about allowing kids to do things for themselves and starting very young, if they fall over, don't swoop in immediately. Give it a moment, you know, see if they can start to create those neural pathways. That's what you say. They gradually create neural pathways that will help them manage and cope and also help with anxiety and stress regulation and building calm neural pathways. And then you also. There's so much in this book, but you also say, I wanted to mention this so people know if they go pick it up. It's called Parental as anything. One of many wonderful books that you've written. But one of the things that you focus on is just accepting what is normal.
- [54:08]
Maggie Dent
Yes.
- [54:08]
Ginny Urich
Like it's just normal. It's normal for your three year old. It's normal for. You said it's normal for if your child is between the age of 1 and 3. It's normal for it to feel like being in a war zone because nothing is predictable and it's normal to be late and it's normal if you're trying to get out of the door that you're not going to get out on time, you know, and tantrums are not.
- [54:28]
Maggie Dent
I think that good enough. That's one of the things we want. I think people are striving for perfect and it's, it's impossible with little people and even twins and teens. But what, what we do know is that they've done research and they say you just have to be good enough 30 to 40% of the time. Time that when you muck up, our kids are learning of that your kids are seeing what you do. When you start to get really stressed and you go, hang on a minute, I'm just going to go and sit in a calm down chair outside till I calm down. You're modeling to them that that's what you can do later. And but when you go to sit in it because you're stressed next time one of your kids is in it. So every now and then we've got to recognize it's not just, you know, nobody is nailing parenting. They never have and they never will. However, what that base is every time when our kids have these big feelings, whether they've dysregulated for all sorts of reasons. And sometimes it's a combination of unmet needs, like they're constipated and they didn't sleep very well. You're going to have a child who's going to explode way more on a day just like we would if we were constipated and didn't sleep well. So in other words, we're okay with grownups having days when we struggle. But we seem to feel that that's a sign that as a parent I should be doing more. What do I do more? We just turn up and be the safe base. And that's the big message I think is I'm just gonna let that set. You know, one of my biggest challenges at the moment is that the pressure on mums to have tidy houses. That's Instagram. Everyone's just seeing these tidy houses. I'm going, for goodness sake of your young children, have one tidy room. Right? Because the rest of the time they move from room to room kind of thing, aren't they? But that's that little brain becoming a potential toddler genius, pulling stuff out and exploring stuff. And I. We had some grandees here over Easter here and it was a bit wet, so my lounge room was turned into a massive cubby, you know, four room cubby. You know, they had the lounge room, the library, the garage and the toy room and shifted the entire thing around. And I hardly saw the them all day. I just have to put snacks in and out. And then later that night, you know, they were heading off. So they helped me. They, they helped me. They basically knew exactly where everything went. But I was quite happy to leave it up. If they were coming back the next day, my house would have stayed with a massive cubby in my lounge room. And the engagement and the chatting between two siblings like for eight hours without one argument. That's magic and that's through play.
- [57:00]
Ginny Urich
Yeah. Wonderful. Maggie, I'm such a fan. So honored to get an opportunity to talk with you. People call you the queen of common sense. A couple of my favorite statements from this episode were when you said their warning systems are accurate. That's huge. That they don't want to get hurt. And they're, they're really trying their best to navigate their world. And so talk about tricky versus risky. Nobody is nailing parenting. What a great thing to say. Remind everybody that, you know, we're all, we're all struggling through here, but it's okay. So just wonderful, wonderful information. And we just barely scratched the surface. And this is just one of so many books. So I will make sure I put all of those things in the show notes. We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [57:45]
Maggie Dent
Oh my gosh. I had so many. We actually had a bush area quite like was probably a 10 minute walk from the farmhouse and it had giant plant rocks as well. And so we each had a cubby in our own little rock out enclose. And I had a little, we call it a mountain devil lizard. A little lizard with little spikes on. He actually was a resident in my cubby and you know, like there was. There were times even as an angry teen, I would go out storming up to there and sit on my favorite rock and a little, little lizard would come out and it, like I said, it was my friend, friend in the bush. It was just a random. Probably it was five generations of it. But I thought it was the same one that was just one. But the cubby building was massive in, in our childhood up trees. We had our cubbies up trees. Yeah. I have so many memories that I can share in that space, but you can see my face lightens up because I can. I can just be there just by memorying it.
- [58:43]
Ginny Urich
Wonderful. Maggie, this has been such an honor to get your time. Such an honor. I mean, I've been waiting for months, so I'm just so, so honored and thankful and a huge. Just fan and advocate for everything that you share. Kids getting messy, kids getting dirty. The play, the simplicity, slowing down. Thank you so much for being here, Jenny.
- [59:04]
Maggie Dent
Thank you for having me and all my love across the waters. To everyone who gets to listen to your podcast.
- [59:15]
Trey Tucker
Are you hungry for guidance about mindset, relationships, health, finances, career decisions, and dealing with your past? I'm Trey Tucker, licensed therapist and speaker and host of Rugged, a podcast where I help young men and women navigate life's challenges and find solutions to help them live lives of service and meaning. In this podcast, you'll learn mindset strategies, strategies to harness your thoughts and emotions in ways that help you achieve your goals. I bring a blend of straight talk and empathy, and I'm open to addressing any topic and treating it and the people connected to it with respect and curiosity. Come join us. We have a space for you. Search for Rugged with Trey Tucker wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to hit the follow button. So new weekly episodes will be delivered straight to your personal podcast feed. My hope is that this podcast will leave you feeling encouraged and empowered to take charge of your life and close the gap between who you are and who you want to be.