1KHO 489: Why Modern Childhood Is Failing Kids' Bodies and Brains | Angela Hanscom, Balanced and Barefoot

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast Episode: 1KHO 489: Why Modern Childhood Is Failing Kids' Bodies and Brains | Angela Hanscom, Balanced and Barefoot

Host: Ginny Urch
Guest: Angela Hanscom, Author of Balanced and Barefoot, Founder of the Timber Nook Program
Release Date: May 27, 2025

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Introduction

[00:30] Ginny Urch kicks off the episode by welcoming Angela Hanscom, praising her impactful work and highlighting the significance of her book, Balanced and Barefoot. Ginny emphasizes how the book has been life-changing for her and recommends it as essential reading for parents, teachers, and anyone involved with children.

Angela's Background and Timber Nook

[01:22] Angela Hanscom introduces herself as a pediatric occupational therapist who observed increasing clumsiness and sensory issues in children. She shares a pivotal moment when a child didn't tolerate wind in his face, sparking her realization that traditional indoor therapies were insufficient. This led to the creation of the Timber Nook program, aimed at restoring authentic outdoor play for children.

Ginny remarks on the natural inclination of children to engage in unrestricted play, and Angela elaborates on Timber Nook's mission to provide child-directed, multi-age outdoor play experiences, which are inherently therapeutic and impossible to replicate in clinical or classroom settings.

The Importance of the Vestibular Sense

[05:24] Angela Hanscom delves into the vestibular sense, explaining it as the balance and motion sense that helps children understand their body's position in space. She highlights that modern children spend excessive time sitting—about nine hours a day in elementary school—limiting their ability to move vigorously.

Angela states:

"The vestibular sense is the key to sensory integration, which means the organization of the brain to lay the foundation for learning."
[05:24]

She describes how activities like spinning, climbing, and swinging provide essential vestibular input, which enhances body awareness, safety, and learning capabilities.

Ginny connects this to traditional playground activities, reminiscing about natural play movements like spinning on bats and rolling down hills, and underscores their fundamental role in development.

Proprioception and Its Impact

Transitioning to proprioception, [25:47] Angela Hanscom defines it as the sense of knowing where one's joints and limbs are in relation to each other. This sense is critical for tasks like writing without breaking pencil leads and moderating physical interactions like play fighting.

She explains:

"Proprioception helps you to know where your body is in space and how much force to use when playing games like tag."
[25:47]

Angela emphasizes that outdoor activities involving heavy work and resistance, such as shoveling snow or building forts, provide necessary proprioceptive input, fostering better motor skills and emotional regulation.

Current Challenges in Modern Childhood

[13:03] Angela Hanscom discusses the visible repercussions of restricted movement in children, such as increased clumsiness, poor body awareness, and unreasonable risk-taking behaviors. She shares insights from Zoe Malick, a researcher with Gene A Foundation, who notes that overprotection prevents children from developing essential sensory and motor skills, leading to heightened risks and injuries.

Summer as a Critical Developmental Period

Ginny and Angela agree that summer offers a unique opportunity for children to engage in extensive outdoor play, which can significantly benefit their physical and neurological development:

[22:13] Angela Hanscom recommends:

"At least three hours a day outdoors. But in summer, they really should be getting a lot more than that—four to six hours."
[22:13]

She advocates for longer, immersive play sessions with friends to enhance creativity, social skills, and emotional well-being.

Timber Nook Implementation in Schools

Angela shares the success of implementing Timber Nook in educational settings, highlighting how extended playtime can replace shorter recess periods without compromising academic performance. For instance, [32:53] she mentions that:

"At Laconia Christian Academy, they have Timber Nook sessions twice a week per grade level, resulting in sustained or even improved test scores."
[32:53]

This demonstrates that meaningful outdoor play can coexist with academic goals, fostering a more holistic development environment.

Emotional Regulation and Academic Performance

[18:03] Angela Hanscom connects the vestibular sense to eye muscle coordination, crucial for activities like reading. She narrates the case of a child with uncontrolled eye movements who, after vestibular therapy, regained the ability to read effectively. This underscores how sensory integration directly impacts academic skills.

Long-Term Benefits of Outdoor Play

Ginny reflects on personal experiences and discusses how outdoor play fosters independence and problem-solving skills. Angela reinforces that outdoor environments encourage children to develop their own play ideas, leading to deeper cognitive and emotional growth.

Reduction in Developmental Delays

[39:58] Angela Hanscom posits that increased outdoor playtime could lead to a significant decrease in developmental delays and reduce the demand for occupational therapy services. She indicates that fostering natural play and sensory experiences can mitigate many of the modern challenges faced by children.

Influence of Social Media and Modern Technology

Both Ginny and Angela touch upon the detrimental effects of social media and technology on children's development. They highlight how traditional outdoor play versus screen time affects social skills, emotional health, and physical coordination, advocating for a balance that favors natural, unstructured play.

Closing Thoughts and Call to Action

Ginny and Angela conclude by encouraging parents and educators to prioritize outdoor play. They advocate for programs like Timber Nook to be integrated into communities and schools, emphasizing the profound impact such initiatives can have on children's holistic development.

Angela shares inspiring stories of parents and children benefiting from Timber Nook, reinforcing the program's value in fostering resilient, joyful, and well-rounded individuals.

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Notable Quotes

• Angela Hanscom

  "The vestibular sense is the key to sensory integration, which means the organization of the brain to lay the foundation for learning."
  [05:24]

• Ginny Urch

  "One unequivocal phrase that really stuck out to me was 'I'm supposed to stay outside.' That is five words. That's five life-changing words."
  [38:19]

• Angela Hanscom

  "If you allow them plenty of time and space, they naturally seek out what they need."
  [08:19]

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Conclusion

This episode of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast provides a compelling argument for the critical role of unrestricted outdoor play in childhood development. Angela Hanscom's insights into the vestibular and proprioceptive senses highlight the neurological and physical benefits of natural play. The Timber Nook program serves as an effective model for integrating extensive outdoor activities into children's daily lives, fostering better physical health, emotional regulation, and cognitive skills. Parents and educators are encouraged to embrace and advocate for more outdoor playtime to ensure the holistic development of children.

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For more information:

• Angela Hanscom's Book: Balanced and Barefoot
• Timber Nook Program: Timber Nook Website
• Follow Angela on Social Media: @BalancedBarefoot

Transcript

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[Ginny Urch]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch and one of my favorite guests is back today the author of Balanced and Barefoot and the founder of the wonderful Timber Nook program, Angela Hanscom. Welcome.

[Angela Hanscom]

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I love the little jig that you're doing.

[Ginny Urch]

Well, I'm so excited. You know, I talk about it so much, but you have changed my life. Your book really came at the right time for me. I think it's required reading for every parent, every teacher, anybody who works with kids. Balanced and Barefoot. It is wonderfully interesting, but just very life changing because it is a reminder about why kids need to play and how important that is and you go through a lot of the science behind it. So for those who don't know, could you give us a little bit of a background about your story, your occupational work that you were doing with kids and how you felt that that was a little limited?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I'm a pediatric occupational therapist by trade, and typically a doctor will refer for occupational therapy if children have trouble with attention in the classroom or any sort of sensory issue, like they don't want to get dirty. But really the number one issue I was starting to see and many other therapists were starting to see was that kids were starting to become more and more clumsy, falling out of their chairs, starting to run into each other in the classroom environment. So that I just really started paying attention to, to stuff like that. And then like, I had a little boy come in one time that didn't like wind in his face and remember thinking, how do I treat that in a clinic setting where we're indoors and we bring a little box of sand and call that sensory inside or bring our swings inside. And I remember thinking for that particular child, do I get a fan and blow the fan on the child? You know, like, how do I treat some of these, these issues that keep popping up.

[Ginny Urch]

And so You, I mean, it was something that you were going to try isn't the story for one summer you were going to try this program and you're bringing people out to help students and things like that. And you were like, oh my goodness, it was so wonderful. And then it's grown. I mean, it's grown to become this worldwide thing. It's a place where people can find that sort of neighborhood play that doesn't often exist anymore. And one of the things you talk about is how in a play environment and especially with other kids, that is the motivation to do the things like get the wind in your face and get muddy.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We, we've had. So here at Timbernook, we run outdoor play experiences. And really, to me, I know I say this, I've been on your podcast a couple times, but it's really fundamental and I really didn't realize it till I did Timber Nook for years. I really realized, you know, the main occupation of a child is play. And outdoor play is a really meaningful one that's really, as you know, really at risk. And so that's profoundly affecting child development. And so the whole mission behind Timbernook is to restore that occupation in its most authentic form. You know, making sure it's child directed, making sure they have hours of playtime, making sure it's a mixture of ages and it's, you know, truly meaningful to them. And that's why it's so therapeutic. And that's something that I can't replicate myself in a clinic setting. We can't replicate this in a classroom environment. You can't replicate what you see in God's country and creation. We can try, but we really fall short. We're just overly restricting access to that. And that's why we're seeing so many issues with sensory and motor developmental skills.

[Ginny Urch]

Unbelievable, isn't it, that we can't replicate. And one of my favorite quotes from your book, Balanced Barefoot is when you say that we think we know best. We're the adults, so we think we know. And you say, but the child's neurological system begs to differ. They know how high, how fast, how much at any given time without us even telling them. Yeah, you cannot replicate those play based, multi age experiences that kids are having outdoors that they are leading. And so as we head into the summer here, Angela and I know you know this, there is a lot of pressure to not fall into that summer slide, which is not about a slide, but it's about losing ground. You forget the fractions or things like that. And so, you know, is all these summer packets and am filling the summer up with these different extracurricular activities. But I would love to give a good sense to those listening about the unbelievable long term benefits of using the summer to play and how that's going to help kids with their development. So can we start off with some of these senses that I had never heard of growing up? I learned about them from you. The vestibular sense, the proprioception sense. Let's kick it off with vestibular, the balance sense. Can you explain what that is and why it matters?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, absolutely. The vestibular sense is, you know, if you think about it, we're overly restricting kids ability to move basically. So like the most recent research I sat in on is that kids are in a chair about nine hours a day. So they're sitting a good majority of the day when they're in elementary school. So this will lead itself nicely to why this is so important during summer break and why we see improvements in development over the summer. But during the typical school week, these kids are in a chair a majority of the day. And what really needs to happen is kids need to move in pretty vigorous ways. They need to spin in circles, they need to go upside down, they need to climb trees and move their head in all different directions. Because inside the inner ear are little hair cells and there's fluid in there. And when we spin or move in rapid ways, that fluid moves back and forth, stimulates those hair cells and develops what we call the vestibular sense. And, and that sense is the key to sensory integration, which means like basically organization of the brain to lay the foundation for learning. So that sense does a couple things. The first thing it does that's really important is it helps you to know where your body is in space. It helps a child to get from point A to point B safely, to get on and off playground equipment effectively, basically to be really able to navigate their environment in a very safe and effective way. And the way we treat that in a clinic setting is this is why we have swings inside our clinics. We will position a child in all different ways and spin them in those different ways so they have a very good sense of body awareness. Our occupational therapist, her name is Mary Kwar, worked closely with NASA to develop this thing called the astronaut board. And it's literally a board that spins. The reason why is because before astronauts go into outer space, they basically get in a machine that moves them in all different directions. So when they go into that anti gravity environment, they have a Very good sense of body awareness as they're navigating their environment. And so we do the same thing. We're literally having children spin or roll down the hill so that they have a very good sense of where their body is in space, so they become safer and more capable. And so sometimes I'll see a child spinning in circles just for fun. And I'll hear an adult say, don't spin. You're going to get dizzy or get down from that rock because you're going to get hurt. But that's when we become the barrier as adults to that neurological development that needs to happen organically. You know, a kid will seek out what they need on their own. They know what they need, basically. So that's just one, like, one aspect of how the vista blar sense really helps with body awareness. Do you want me to keep going?

[Ginny Urch]

Yes, yes, keep going. I mean, I'm also. I was. You know, it makes me think about the modern playground equipment. So the playground equipment used to be those. I mean, we did those things that spun, and you. You would either be running and pulling, and then you would jump on, or you would just be sitting there and it would spin. The swings used to be longer. I mean, even that motion of swinging out and back, like, that's moving the position of the head. You know, you see the kids that used to roll down the hill, somersault wheelbarrow, where you would hold someone's legs and they would walk on their hand. These things seem so simple, and yet kids are drawn to them. They do them naturally and they really matter.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting you said that because, like, each movement actually does different things. So, like spinning in circles, like spinning on your own access. Like, if I'm spinning circles to get dizzy and fall and get back up again or rolling down the hill, something like that actually is a certain kind of vestibular input that really helps with that body awareness versus swinging. Like swinging linear going back and forth is very calming stimuli. It will help regulate a body to be able to, like, if they get really frustrated, to bring that back down naturally. So different types of movement work on different things. Now, the merry ground is different. That's a different kind of vestibular input. One time I was treating a child where I was the center. So I'm spit, I'm spinning. But I was taking a child where their head was positioned away from me, and so I was spinning them around. And what that does, that's actually the most powerful vestibular input you can give a Child. You have to be very mindful about using that kind of input with a child because they can. They can feel nauseous for the rest of the day. So it is important to remember that, yes, spinning is important, but it's really important that the child direct that, because what one child can tolerate might not be what another child can tolerate. And so it's really important that they regulate what they're ready for, unless you're using it and you're trained for treatment. Now, when I was spinning that child on the hammock, it creates the centrifugal force in the inner ear, and it bends the hair cells in one direction. And that helps them. If you look in our OT books, it helps with grounding and sustained attention. So being able to pay attention for a long period of time. And that was really the merry ground. Right. You were holding on to the outside of the merry ground for dear life. And it's creating the centrifugal for a very powerful vestibular input. You can replicate that also when you take two. If two children hold hands and spin, that is very similar. Like, they're creating that centrifugal force that also works on that similar skill. So different types of movement actually work on different developmental skills for children.

[Ginny Urch]

It just sort of feels like a miracle. That's what it feels like to me, because these things are so simple and they're so natural. When you think of childhood in an unencumbered childhood, a childhood maybe when we were growing up, where there weren't as many rules and there weren't as many time restrictions, it's just what kids do. I totally would have forgotten about the Angela, but I remember crossing arms, grabbing hands, and you just spin and spin and spin. I remember putting the bat on the ground and spinning around the bat. Spin and spin and spin. And I never would have thought, well, these are different kinds of spinnings in each of the different kind of spinning. And then you're rolling down the hill. You might roll side sideways, but you might go more a somersault motion. Then there's cartwheels. I remember hanging upside down on the monkey bars. And I wasn't even good at gymnastics, but I learned how to cross my ankles. And we would swing back and forth and then flip your legs over. This is just what kids do. And what a miracle. Yeah, that. That is what sets this foundation for learning.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah. Yeah. We were designed that way. It's. It's just again, keeping them from doing that out of fear or thinking we know best. Like you had mentioned Earlier.

[Ginny Urch]

So. Okay, is there anything else that parents. I mean, I know it's such a big topic and you're sort of kind of explaining what it is, but I guess what, what should a parent know about? There's so much fear, Angela, about just letting kids be kids, just letting them go, just letting them do those things. There's fear that they're going to get hurt, but there's maybe the bigger fear is that they're going to miss out. You didn't put them in French. You didn't do the summer reading program. You know you didn't. Okay, but I do think reading is important. But like, in terms of reading, like, you know, in terms of the worksheets and things like that, you didn't do that. And they just climbed fences and spun on a merry go round and you touched on it a bit. But are we seeing, like, when we look at the state of childhood and kids are struggling basically, are we seeing the ramifications of not being able to move in the ways that kids are supposed to move?

[Angela Hanscom]

Oh, definitely. So, specifically talking about what we just did, that one thing spinning in circles, right? We're seeing kids fall out of their chair in school now at an early age. And it's interesting because occupational therapists work with the geriatric population to keep the older population moving. So we're doing water aerobics with them and getting them like moving in different ways so that it prevents falling and hip fractures and injuries. It's a huge red flag that we're seeing more and more children fall out of their chairs and starting to run into each other, have poor body awareness. We're having kids now, again, I've mentioned this before, but starting to take unreasonable risk taking. And we actually just had. So Zoe Malick is a researcher for the Gene A Foundation, which was the guru, the person that brought sensory integration to the forefront. Her researcher came and talked to our tymernic providers to further educate us on the sensory component. And I asked her, I'm like, so what is happening? Like, why are. When a field trip comes out, why are kids jumping off rocks and taking almost unreasonable risks now? And she's like, really? If you think about it, these are the skills they should have done as babies as young age is taking those risks and mastering those sensory skills. And if you don't, if you overprotect them and keep them from moving those different ways and wait, wait, wait, wait, wait till they're nine years old, they're not going to develop that skill, they're going to be doing unsafe things, really risky things, and someone's going to get hurt. So we need to allow them from a very, very early age to take reasonable risk taking and start learning those risk assessment skills.

[Ginny Urch]

And so the point of this podcast is summer is the time. It is the time for this type of development. It really should be all the time. But for sure summer can set aside to really hone in on these types of movements.

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[Ginny Urch]

Can you talk about to further convince those listening about how the vestibular sense is related to the eyes tracking for reading?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, the other thing the vestibular sense does is it supports all six eye muscles to work as a team, which is really important for scanning and crossing the middle of your body, basically. And so think of it. Yeah, like a tripod for a camera. It stabilizes his eyes. An example of that is I had a little boy come in one time that couldn't read. He was seven years old and he was holding one eye, you know, covering one eye with a hand. He went to the nurse's office and read the snell and eye chart just fine, like so with the letters. And that just means he has good visual acuity, but doesn't necessarily mean the muscles can work in conjunction with each other. So he came in for a vestibular treatment. We put him on that astronaut board we were talking about earlier where I had him spin and then we had him, we, I had him look from point A to point B with light pens to see can he track afterwards after spinning. And what happened is every time he got to the middle, we call it midline, his eyes would lose control and almost like a roller coaster. So his eyes would loop like a roller coaster every time he got to the middle. Can you imagine trying to read if you can't control your eyes? So with two weeks of vestibular treatment, he was able to control his eyes and it wasn't long before he was able to actually start reading. And so behavioral optometrists work very closely with occupational therapists to treat visual skills. And they're also very big proponents of movement. And I've been on a couple podcasts with them because they're advocates of, you know, plenty of movement opportunities. Helps with basic visual skills. And if you go in their office, you'll see similar things. You see trampolines, you see swings. So it helps with knowing where your body is in space. It helps with tracking for reading and writing.

[Ginny Urch]

A behavioral optometrist, I've never even heard of that. But this is the situation that we're in because kids are not moving in the ways that they used to because it should be natural. But we are restricting them based off of time and based off of fear. And so they're not doing these things starting at babies. I remember, I'm pretty sure I learned it from you, that even when you're out hiking with a baby and you have them in the pack, which is what we did now, they call it rucking. And it's great for your own skeletal system as a parent. So there's all these win wins. But you have your baby in the ergo, or whatever your carrier is. And as you walk, with each step, they're having to use their eyes to work together. Because it's this up and down motion. Or if a kid is scampering through the woods, their eyes are constantly having to adjust and they track. It's very different than if you're walking on a flat surface. You're inside. You kind of already know your environment. And so the eyes are practicing, working together. And you've got five, six, seven years of that. And then the kid is going to be able to track a word on a page, which that's even a whole thing. Because when they look at words on a screen, the eyes also don't work in the correct direction. They pop all over the place. They move in the shape of an L. I don't remember all of this logistics, but the printing on a page really also matters and helps kids with that tracking. So talk to us then. In 2025, how should a parent arrange a summer?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, plenty of outdoor playtime. It sounds so basic, but yeah, just ability to move in all different ways. And it doesn't have to be playground play. You can definitely, certainly do playground play, but also just playing out in nature, because nature provides the ultimate sensory experience. Giant boulders, hills, rolling hills, you know, uneven terrain. Just walking outdoors is going to challenge their muscles and senses, but allowing them those opportunities to move. So if you see a child spinning, you know, let them. It's because they need that input. There's some children that will spin and spin and spin. That means they really need it. Something neurologically is going on, and they need it even more than maybe other children. So just allowing them plenty of time to do those things and space and opportunity, obviously.

[Ginny Urch]

Okay, so we're in this day and age where we need a lot of direction. Tell us how much time.

[Angela Hanscom]

So at least three hours a day. I recommend that they get outdoors one more time.

[Ginny Urch]

One more time.

[Angela Hanscom]

At least three hours a day. But in summer, they really should be getting a lot more than that. You know, when I do speak engagements, I ask people, how much time did you get growing up? And people consistently are saying four to six hours. So that is a lot more than three hours. Three hours is a minimum.

[Ginny Urch]

And invite friends.

[Angela Hanscom]

Invite friends over for the entire day. Absolutely.

[Ginny Urch]

Talk about how that would help a child with their development and their growth. If a friend is over, a couple friends are over for the entire day, as opposed to some of these shorter play dates that happen a lot now.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah. So the environment is the inspiration for play, and having other children out there is part of the environment. So they will inspire kids to play in new ways and give them new play affordances. And often, like, it's boring sometimes you get. Which is fine to get bored, but it's. It is much more thrilling when you're playing with other children and exciting and you play off each other's ideas. And so having other children over for the entire day is really important for creativity, for play, but also, you know, so they're not lonely. They're creating friendships. They're learning social skills. They're having to listen to other people's ideas, you know, and go back and forth with all the. The social components of that.

[Ginny Urch]

I like how you've talked about the ebbs and flows. And when we have friends over, our kids have friends over. They do here and there, come and say, we don't have anything to do. Can we watch a movie? And when you say no, you'll.

[Angela Hanscom]

I.

[Ginny Urch]

You'll find something. I trust you'll find something more so than when they're by themselves. They really quickly do find things to do. But how nice for them to have the ebb and flow and to realize, oh, yeah, I can figure something out. I can find something that is enticing and engaging. The whole thing is kind of wild to me. Angela, like your typical parent who's not an occupational therapist or behavioral optometrist potentially has never heard of the word vestibular sense. I Hadn't I was able to take a child home from the hospital not even knowing that word? And yet it is so critical to the development of children, which is why I say give this book at the baby shower balanced and barefoot, so the mom can read it before the baby's here and they have time to know about these things that are important. Another one. And people can read your book if they want to learn more. Another one. That is another one I hadn't heard of. I do like the names, is proprioception. I learned about it, I guess, a very little bit when I was in the classroom, but it wasn't until I was in this. More of an administrative role. I was helping with the math curriculum across our district. And so I was working with other curriculum leads. And when I was working with the curriculum leads for, like, reading, English, language arts, they were bringing in these little pencils that were sharpened on both ends. They were colored pencils, and one side would be red and one side would be blue or whatever. And the kids would have to practice flipping that little pencil from side to side. And they said the kids weren't getting enough time on the tummy, pushing up on their hands, and that they would break the pencils really easily when they would go to write because they didn't know how much pressure to use. So I learned about that. I mean, isn't that so circumstantial, though, Angela? Like, I wouldn't know about it except for that one year I spent with rubbing shoulders with these other curriculum leads. I mean, that's a whole piece about. Well, there's so much we don't know, and it really matters. So can. We're going to jump from vestibular, and you can learn more about it in your book. Let's jump to proprioception. Same sort of thing. A little bit of an overview and why it matters.

[Angela Hanscom]

Okay. Yeah. So proprioception is basically knowing where your joints are and your. Your limbs are in relation to each other. So it's kind of a different type of body awareness. You know, where my hand is in relation to my bot. My core and my. Where my head is positioned. And it also helps you to know how much force to use when. Yeah, writing with a pencil without breaking the lead every time. Or maybe you're. Maybe you're not pushing down hard enough. That's also a proprioception problem. It might be where a child, like, needs, like, huge hugs to calm down. Or they might pick up a chick and they're squeezing the chick too, too much. They go to Play tag and they're hitting too hard. And so, like, they're starting to ban tag at school because kids are getting, quote, more and more aggressive. Those are proprioception issues and those are starting to pop up more. And the way that we treat that, you'll hear occupational therapists talk about the importance of a lot of heavy work. And that's push, pull resistance. Activities like, you know, doing chores, you know, farm chores, picking up bales of hay, mowing the lawn. All those things gave us nice input to the joints and muscles. You know, stuff like climbing trees gives you nice resistance to joints and muscles. Picking up a log to build a fort gives you again, nice resistance to those joints and muscles. And again, it helps you to know where your limbs are in relation to each other and how much pressure to use when playing games like tag instead of banning tag. We really want to understand again, why is this happening? Why are so many kids, kids can't keep their hands off each other at school. They're like, they're just really all over each other physically. So we really want to look at what are we doing in the environment. Also, if they're on screens a lot, you're pushing little buttons. You're not getting resistance to those joints and muscles. So that sense is going to be affected. And children.

[Ginny Urch]

And once again, it is just those simple things. And you would think, my goodness, this is nothing. And each season offers new opportunities for proprioceptive development, vestibular development. Because I remember as a kid loving to shovel. I loved to shovel, actually into my teen years. It's one of my favorite memories from childhood is being up really early with my dad before work, before school. Big snowstorm hit and we would just be out there. I can hear it. I can hear the sound of the shovel hitting the pavement. But surrounded by quiet because the snow muffles sound. So, you know, and you're, and you're just, you're lifting it and that is proprioceptive development. So is pushing the big snowball to make the snowman and then lifting up the next one and lifting up the next one and then your fine motor to put that little carrot in. It just seems too simple to matter.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, it really. Yeah, it really does matter. And I think it's interesting that now people are seeing it. It now, like, especially in schools, like now people are seeing all sorts of issues because they're not given enough time to work on those developmental skills.

[Ginny Urch]

Talk about the school day. Where we live is 20 minutes of recess. Well, it's a school district. I grew up in, it's 20 minutes of recess in the afternoon. 20 that starts in whatever they call it, beginner garden or Pre K. It's four year olds. So there are 20 minutes of recess in the afternoon, a 45 minute combined lunch and recession at lunchtime. That's it. No morning recess. They say they have social, emotional learning, sel. I never heard of that in my teaching days. But they, well, they're like, well, they get 25 minutes of SEL in the morning and then this combined lunch recess, which you don't know how much time they're actually playing, probably not that much. And then 20 minutes in the afternoon. Is that appropriate for children?

[Angela Hanscom]

I'm not a huge fan of short movement breaks. And this goes back to the vestibular sense. The other thing that vestibular sense does is it helps with emotional regulation. So if you're really frustrated or angry to bring that back down naturally. But it also helps with arousal levels or activity levels. So if kids are off the wall, plenty of movement helps to regulate all of that. And so when you only have a 20 minute movement break or even a five minute, you know, five minute breaks that they do in school, what happens is when you first start moving, you're already feeling antsy because you've been sitting. But when you first start moving, the activity level goes up. So in 20 minutes, kids are now off the wall and they bring them in from recess and they are disregulated and not ready to learn. And then they're having to dim the lights and get the kids to focus. But it's just not enough time to be regulated. So both at recess and also like making sure kids have plenty of time to play outdoors. I like when they get home, they really need a good 45 minutes to an hour for their body to be regulated and ready to go indoors again or pay attention to anything really.

[Ginny Urch]

I just talked to this mom the other day who said every single day after school they stay at the playground for an hour. And she said they did it through the winter. And sometimes there was a couple other parents and sometimes it was just her with her kids. And I think that that is a wonderful idea. Stick around. The school's got a fun playground. Your kid only got 20 minutes on it earlier so they might want more time on it later. And you offer so people can become a timber nook provider, which is wonderful. I have talked to several of your timber nook providers and you are servicing children in a way that will affect generations. You're servicing your community. It's A job that you can sometimes do with your kids, with you. You could do summer programming so people are interested. I'll make sure. I'll put that in the show notes. You have a wonderful team, wonderful training. This could change your life. If you're a parent that's looking for a job that works with your family and is flexible and, and matters and, and has an impact, this is a great thing that you could do. Additionally, you offer Timber Nook time for schools. And I talked to a woman who does that through your program named Kenzie. It's a great episode. People can go back and listen though. I told you they probably won't. People don't go back that much even though the content is evergreen. So anyway. But you could go back and I'll make sure. I'll put the link in for there. But I was shocked, Angela, when she told me actually how much time the kids are getting with the Timbernook program. The school day in the elementary schools. Now she's at a private school and that might be the easier place to start. If you're listening and you're part of a private school system, I would listen to that episode and grab the book. Grab balanced and barefoot. She said the administrators read it and they trusted it. I mean, this is research backed. And so they said we're going to give it a go. And it didn't necessarily like skyrocket their test scores, but their test scores didn't drop. So what if instead of having a 20 minute recess, you could have a two hour recess that helps the kids with their development and their emotional regulation and their social skills and test. Even if test levels stay the same, what a more wonderful school environment for the kids and the teachers and the administration. I mean, it's a win, win, win for everybody. So can you talk about how much Timber Nook time some of these kids are getting at the schools that have implemented it?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah. So we Recommend at least 2 hours and the Laconia Christian Academy does it twice a week per grade level. So they started off with once a week for the first year and found they found so many benefits and they're like, we're going to increase it to twice a week. But the reason why the two hours is important for Timbernook in the woods is because it also takes time to figure out like, who am I going to play with? What am I going to play? And then dive deep into a play scheme. And the environment at Timurk is strategically staged to inspire different types of play opportunities and continuously challenge them to think in new ways. What's nice about that school too is like they might do, let's say Three Little Pigs day one where they're building life size three little pig homes and they're getting into different play schemes with that. And then the nice thing is they're not done. They get to go out again and they might read the book from a perspective of the wolf and add some new elements and they'll take play to a whole different level because often kids are not done playing that play scheme. They're just starting to get into it. And so also remembering, we don't have to change things up all the time. Like we tend to over schedule our kids and we want to like over. We overdo it and we just don't allow them to dive really deep into thinking and problem solving and coming up with their own ideas.

[Ginny Urch]

It's good advice. It's good advice like they want to continue. They created something. So let them go and let them come back to it. It was interesting because Kenzie said at this particular school they have their timber time. Twice a week. The teachers are involved, which is really interesting. She said. One of the big benefits is that teachers start to see the other side of some of the kids. Of all the kids. You see a new side of them and what a thing. Like shouldn't we all do that? Like we want to see this? Everyone's all their sides. Let's see what they're like in these different environments.

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[Angela Hanscom]

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Discover Shiseido clear sunscreen stick SPF 50 plus for yourself. Shop now at Ulta before it sells out. But one thing that really stuck out to me was that they do an hour recess every day. So they already had this hour recess built in, which is longer than most. And on the days that they have Timber Nook, the kids are outside for three hours. It's half the day, half, half. And their test scores have not dropped. What a thing. What a thing. So if you are in a position, if you're listening to this and you're in a position, there are very few people that are really in the position of decision making. But if that's you, you have the opportunity to ripple out and for other people to say, oh, they did it and their test scores didn't drop and everyone has more vitality and kids aren't getting as sick as much and there's less bullying. All of these different things. When you're talking about the three little pigs. One of the things that's coming up a lot and people ask me when I speak different places is you talk to me about the 10 year old, the 12 year old, the 13 year old in my world. I'm so glad that we invested and I know you're the same, it's like you invest in, in these and you didn't even totally know what you were doing. I didn't totally know what I was doing, but we invested in this play in early childhood and can see firsthand that it just evolves and changes over the over time. They fish and they kids will continue to play. But so many ask, well, my kids in fourth grade now and all the other friends are playing Minecraft. What am I supposed to do?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, I would encourage them to find like minded, you know, in the system with finding like minded friends that also go outdoors because it really does matter. They have other kids that are similar minded, even if it's just one friend or siblings or if it's, you know, like even my daughters, they're very close in age and they have each other to go do adventures with. But like you know, finding someone or a family that has similar interests is really important to keep them going outside. And sometimes, often like my kids become a little bit of an influence on other kids, you know, like I'm supposed to stay outside and so then those kids want to play with like no offense and so they'll be outside as well.

[Ginny Urch]

What an interesting five Words. I'm supposed to stay outside. I'm supposed to stay outside. That's five words. That's a life changing five words. And that's how we grew up. There was a family across the street that they didn't, they weren't allowed to go in. They. She locked the door. And I, I talked to her about it actually a while ago. I think I told you maybe. And you know, that would be what they were gonna say is I'm. Well, I'm just supposed to stay outside. And then everyone else does too. It just goes to show how much it can affect other people. Timbernook. Choosing to do that in your neighborhood, having play equipment in the front yard, just having this general sentiment of, ah, we're supposed to be outside, we're supposed to stay out here for a little bit. Do you think that if we were to revert back and we hit that number of about three hours a day, year round, all ages getting outside and maybe a little bit more in the summer, four to six. That's Charlotte Mason back in the 1800s was. She was advocating for four to six hours whenever the weather is tolerable. What would it change?

[Angela Hanscom]

I think we would see a lot less behaviors in the school. I think we would see children more filled with joy and contentment in life, finding meaning and purpose. You know, kind of the big stuff. Think about it, you know, the soul work, the things that really matter more than the achievements or having an award or a sticker on your chest. You know, like it's the stuff that really matters that makes the character of the child is the component and the mental health piece. Right. Like they're finding joy in life. Life is such a gift.

[Ginny Urch]

Would it affect developmental delays?

[Angela Hanscom]

Oh, yeah. Oh, that's up to you.

[Ginny Urch]

One in six has a developmental delay.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah. I think we would see a significant decrease in the amount of children that need special services. I think we'd put some of our ots out of the job, which would probably be a good thing, you know, like, or we, we could do other things, you know, like. So I think the fact that there's such a demand in OTs, these occupational therapists are really stressed out. They're really overworked. They feel very desperate. They can't meet the needs of children. As many children as that really need them. They usually have half an hour with like a group of children once a week in a school. It's not going to be enough to create change. I recently talked to a teacher and she's like the reason why we are seeking out Timbernook is. We are desperate. We are completely desperate at this point. So that tells you something.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, because it's, it's all of the adults that are working with children. It is the occupational therapist. I remember maybe in our very first conversation where you said one of the light bulb moments for you was that all of a sudden it wasn't like this. And you know, there is a shift. There really is an actual shift. Obviously everyone talks about Jonathan Haidt's book where he says, we went from a play based childhood to a phone based childhood. But there are these men, Ned Johnson and Dr. William Sticksrad. They say, actually, no, there was something in the middle. They say we went from a play based childhood to a performance based childhood. And the change started there. And then all of a. And then you tack phones on top because the performance based childhood is still there. It's both. Performance. There's such a drive for performance and this onslaught of phones and screens and technology. So there was a shift, and you talked about that shift. You said, well, I'm working as an occupational therapist. And then all of a sudden my wait list was a year long. And there's a man named Thomas Kirsting who said, I can't remember the date he gave, but he was working as a school counselor. And he said all of a sudden it was one year to the next. He said, you know, I'm working with kids in high school and they're coming in and we're trying to figure out where they're gonna go to college, and we're working on these things. And then he said, all of a sudden a kid came in. He said he can remember it had an anxiety disorder. And he said within one year, all of a sudden, basically all the work he was doing was dealing with kids that had anxiety and struggling with anxiety. Remember you saying that, that you know, you're, you have this normal workload, this normal caseload. And then all of a sudden.

[Angela Hanscom]

So the occupational therapists now, even since I left, are saying now they've shifted even since I've left, that they're treating a lot of kids with emotional regulation issues. Like, it's like the number one mental health. It's like the number one thing they're getting referred to now. So it's like beyond the physical stuff that I've talked about. It's, it's, it's deeper.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's changing and it's getting worse.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yes. Oh, yeah. And teachers are very frustrated because especially in public schools, they're very, very frustrated because they are being told how to do things. They've taken away their agency, which takes away the child's agency, which is related to anxiety and sensory issues. So, you know, one of the reasons why kids really thrive out at Timbernock that have sensory issues is there's choice and there's a lot of freedom and a sense of, yeah, I, I have control over my life because every other aspect of their life is very much controlled. And so that does increase anxiety in children with sensory issues.

[Ginny Urch]

Well, that same people that I was just talking about, that Ned Johnson and Dr. William Stickshaw, they say. And I haven't. They're new to me. I, I'm new to their books. They have a book called the Self Driven Child and then a workbook that just came out. And then I read another one of theirs recently called what do youo say? So I don't remember the exact wording because the, the texts are new to me. But basically the premise is that lack of control is one of the most anxiety producing things that can happen to you. And their whole premise is like, give control back to the kids as much as possible. Let them control their own outcomes of their lives. And it's true. If someone else is in control of everything that you do and all of your time and you don't have a lot of practice making decisions, there are short term and long term ramifications of that. That. So I know you just recently spoke with Dr. Peter Gray.

[Angela Hanscom]

I was gonna mention him, which is so cool.

[Ginny Urch]

It's so cool. I'm such a fan of the both of you. And I saw this picture of the two of you standing together and I was like, it's my heroes. I was like, that's so great. I absolutely love seeing that. But Dr. Peter Gray talking about change. Dr. Peter Gray talks about how now he's a generation or two older than we are. When he was a kid, that's the school day was shorter. Maybe it was six hours. It didn't really matter so much. And within that shorter school day, I remember having three recesses and they were long, probably 45 minutes to an hour sometimes maybe they were longer morning, lunch and afternoon. Is that kind of what the ideal school day should look like?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, like, definitely a lot less structure. Peter Gray kept talking over and over about how important it is while they're playing outside. That is their learning. That is more powerful learning than what we can replicate in a classroom that we can't, we can't get to that high level of learning. So I think going back to the summer, like that's where you're going to see the most growth because it's meaningful to the child, because it is a choice. And that's where they're really going to retain that information and dive deeper into it. So I think we really need to rethink school. You know, how much they're in school and what we call school even.

[Ginny Urch]

What do you think about homework, work?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, I, I'm not a huge fan of homework either. I think they're already in school for many hours that I'm not a fan of homework because it is taking away from playtime they get outdoors. Even my own children, I'm like, ah, it's so hard because like you want them to. You feel like kind of guilty. But like it is, is that literally they're sitting down and doing paperwork where they could be outdoors and you know, playing with other children. And I, I think the benefits are way higher out. I'm a little B. But yeah, outdoors learning well.

[Ginny Urch]

And bias is such an interesting word to use because you actually have experience with it. I think one of the biggest things that you have, you know, I have it is hindsight. There is a lot of fear when your kid is young because you can't, you don't know, you can't see down the road, you can't see the type of person that they're going to become. And I got a chance to spend an hour with your oldest daughter, Joelle, and we did a podcast together. People could go back and listen to that one as well. And you talk about, you know, that as our, as the, I, I'm noticing this, it's like as the kids get older, are there other kids for them to play with? Are there other kids that have a personality? Do they have things to talk about? You know, can they go off in adventure? But I think if you have an 8 year old and you could guarantee that by the time they're 17, you're gonna just love spending time with them, they're gonna have a zest for life, they're gonna be off doing things, you're gonna trust them, they're gonna have all these friendships and hobbies and interests, but you don't, you can't, you can't have that guarantee. You kind of just have to trust what other people are telling you. When your kids were younger, like, did you have that same fear?

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, I had a lot of fears and it really was through experience and paying attention. I think that's key, you know, Paying attention to what, what your children are telling you. You know, like Joel, when she was really little, she would have tantrums every time I had her over scheduled and she would have a tantrum every time I was like, hurry up, get in the car, hurry up. You know, like, and she was like, it had these sensory issues. And then when we slowed down and I allowed time, like, I really saw her gifts come to light, but I didn't see it before because I was pushing her and having her do things that weren't even meaningful to her. And now like, as you know, I mean, she's almost gonna be 20. Like I can see the leader she's becoming, but I had given her a lot of space and a lot of freedom, A lot of trust. Yeah. And just paying, paying close attention to what their body is in, what they are telling you through their actions.

[Ginny Urch]

And one of the things that she said that really struck me and I remembered since is that she said she felt that she had a really good sense of her own identity and she also knew that other people didn't. She had enough awareness to say, I have something that some other people don't have. My age.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah. So actually, so we, we trained a group of providers last week. About 12 of them and seven of them heard Timber from your podcast. So I have to say like, thank you for getting the word out. And one provider said it was like a light, like she just said this is what I need to do and started listening to all the podcasts and learning about Timber. But anyway, thank you, Jenny. I think that's amazing. But so she, Joal came out on Thursday and like she is training and really interested in helping out with Timber Nook. And so she came out for the entire day and, and sat with each of the providers and just asked them questions and listened to them and they asked her questions about her experience growing up doing Timber Nook. She said something similar. Jenny. One of them turned to her and was like, you know, what is it like being you know, a freshman in college? And you know, how is it different than high school? And she's like, honestly, it's similar to high school. It's very like the kids are just not maturity wise where I would expect them. And everyone's going to this party scene and she's like, it's just not for me. She talked about her sense of self and knowing what she wants and how she doesn't have to please people and she's finding out true friends versus there's very shallow friendships and you know, she's looking for those deeper friendships. And one of them turned her. And she's like, do you know how refreshing it is to hear a child say that and say, like, they don't, you know, like, that they have a strong sense of confidence. And she's like, I want that for my daughter. So thank you for giving me, me hope, you know, like, because that's. That's what we all want for our children. I think it's. It's amazing to see that, to, like, know that you can have an influence on their, you know, their environment and the opportunities you provide them. Because Joelle was, you know, she's in the world just like everyone else is. But, like, it really intentionally gave them timber nook where they're creating societies out in the woods for year after year, really did shape them. And I actually asked a question to Peter Gray, because I had him for three days. Ended up, like, somehow, like, we. The plane together. It was not like it was just a weird coincidence, but we literally flew on the plane all the way there and then on the way back together. So I heard a lot of great research from it. But I asked him, like, I'm finding that my two girls are really forming friendships mostly with guys, but. But homeschool boys, you know, like, they're not clicking with a lot of the typical girls. And, you know, they're not into Snapchat. They're not into, you know, doing the typical teenage stuff that you're seeing now, but they're on adventures with. With a bunch of homeschool boys. Like, what is that? You know, why is that? And he said, well, if you think about it, he goes, you kind of went above and beyond. Because he goes, even when I was young, so he's in his 80s. He's like, we played. He goes, it was mostly the guys playing, building forts and stuff. And he's like, you. You kind of gave your girls an opportunity to create societies and forts that's not traditional. And so they, you know, like, Joel talks about tripwires like. Like extreme experiences of these societies out in the woods. And so it shaped them so much that they don't relate to a lot of the typical teenage girls in their. Their. Their circles. So I thought that was really interesting and I had never thought about that. Is that we. We created that environment is when we're pioneering this. This is something very new and learning as we go.

[Ginny Urch]

It's interesting because people have said that social media is the greatest conformity engine ever created.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And you start to hear about. I talked to this woman named Melanie Hempy who has this program called Screen Strong. And she said she sent her boys off to college and she said, they're all the same. Everyone is the same. Every girl I talk to is the same. They all talk about the same things. And I just read this wonderful book by this man named Sahil Bloom. It just came out and he's already sold a quarter of a million copies. And it's like in New York Times Square, up on the billboard, it's in the airport. I was like, your book is in the airport. Balanced and barefoot also needs to be in the airport. But this book is in the airport. It's called the Five Types of Wealth. Talking about, like we're so focused on monetary wealth. And that is the push, I think, with all of these extracurriculars and summer packets. And he says, no, there are lots of types of wealth. And he said in particular, no one would choose to trade places with Warren Buffett. I mean, he's a billionaire. Isn't that what we all want? He's like. But also he's 95, so you could drop dead tomorrow. Like he would trade places with you in poverty because you've got time left. So the book is fantastic. It's called Five Types of Wealth. And here's what he said. The fight against normality is the most important fight of your life.

[Angela Hanscom]

Oh, wow.

[Ginny Urch]

That's powerful to be distinctive. And that's sort of what you're saying is like with Joelle, with our own kids. You know, I remember in our kids have, you know, they've got great friends, but you know, sometimes they're like they, they have nothing to talk about. They're not doing anything. And that distinctive piece, it's all of these things that seem so simple, but it comes out of that simple childhood play.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ginny Urch]

Angela, what an honor. This is the best. And I'm so glad that the timber nooks popping up everywhere, they need to. There should be one in every community. There should be one in every community because obviously, you know, parents have limitations and can't always provide that for their kids. And also maybe you don't know many other kids that are willing to come and play in that multi age environment. And I think it's so wonderful. It's been a blessing for me to be able to come and see it in person. There's one here in Jackson, Michigan, not far from from us, where the provider has already expanded. It's been a smashing, smashing success for her. I know she was nervous one day. I want to just do a podcast on entrepreneurship.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ginny Urch]

Because you went from being in a pretty sort of straightforward career as an occupational therapist to launching this global program. And I think it's really cool to hear that Joelle is interested in being a part and coming and joining in. That happens a lot of time to me. Step out on our with our own dreams and it opens up doors for so many people. So thank you. Thank you. I mean, we've been together now for a lot of time. What an honor. Thank you for coming in and helping all of these parents get ready for a summer of spectacular development for their children.

[Angela Hanscom]

Yeah, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure coming on here.

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[Angela Hanscom]

Entertaining?

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Check out the Bible Stories podcast. Each week Bible Stories brings you classics, you know, and hidden gems that you might have missed. Have you ever heard about the time that King David fought a giant and he lost? Or when Paul preached so long a guy fell asleep he tumbled out a window and had to be brought back to life? Did you know that God himself buried Moses and that Michael the arch archangel and the devil fought over Moses body? Yeah, it gets wild. So tune in for storytelling that's biblical, insightful, and a lot of fun. Subscribe today to Bible Stories with Matt Mullins and Todd Hammons, available wherever you get your podcasts.