1KHO 495: The Editor Behind the Curtain - What Really Shapes the Books That Shape Us | Will Parker Anderson, Writers Circle Podcast

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast Episode 1KHO 495: The Editor Behind the Curtain - What Really Shapes the Books That Shape Us | Will Parker Anderson, Writers Circle Podcast

Host: Ginny Urch
Guest: Will Parker Anderson, Senior Editor at Waterbrook (An imprint of Penguin Random House)
Release Date: June 4, 2025

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Introduction

[01:07] Ginny Urch:
Ginny Urch, founder of the 1000 Hours Outside podcast, welcomes listeners to the episode featuring Will Parker Anderson, a senior editor at Waterbrook. She highlights Will's extensive background in editing and his involvement with notable projects, including the Chosen and the Gospel Coalition’s Dwell Bible app. Ginny expresses her admiration for editors, likening their role to that of magicians who can transform a raw story into a compelling narrative.

The Role of an Editor

[01:50] Will Parker Anderson:
Will acknowledges the common misconception about the editor's role, noting that many aspiring authors approach him with book ideas and pitches. He emphasizes that his primary responsibility is not just to correct grammar but to enhance the manuscript's overall structure and message.

[03:39] Will Parker Anderson:
Explaining his approach, Will shares an experience teaching middle school students about different types of editors—copy editors who handle grammar and punctuation, and developmental editors who focus on ideas, structure, and the book's message. He demonstrates this by transforming a simple story about "Jack and Jill" into a more engaging narrative by adding settings and emotions.

Will’s Journey to Editing

[03:55] Will Parker Anderson:
Will delves into his unconventional path to becoming an editor. Originally a journalism major, he faced challenges finding a job during the 2009 recession, leading him to ministry work for twelve years. Despite this detour, his passion for writing remained strong, and he gradually moved into editing through contract work and projects like writing curriculum for The Chosen. His ministry background, he notes, has been beneficial in connecting with authors from diverse backgrounds.

[10:22] Ginny Urch:
Ginny inquires about Will's experience working with well-known authors. Will mentions collaborating with John Tyson of Church of the City, highlighting Tyson's excellence and excitement for his upcoming book.

The Influence of Social Media on Publishing

[11:54] Will Parker Anderson:
Will discusses the evolving role of social media in publishing. He observes that while some successful authors thrive without a significant social media presence, others rely heavily on platforms like TikTok and Instagram. He expresses hope that the industry will increasingly value expertise and content quality over follower counts, noting that many impactful authors do not prioritize social media.

[25:25] Ginny Urch:
Ginny shares insights from her podcast, noting that top episodes often feature authors without large social media followings. She cites examples like Dr. Peter Gray's Free to Learn and Kim John Payne's Simplicity Parenting, both of which have had significant influence without leveraging major social platforms.

[25:50] Will Parker Anderson:
Will agrees, emphasizing that publishing should cater to a diverse range of authors, including academics and experts who may not be inclined towards social media. He recounts acquiring a bird-themed book with minimal online presence, which gained traction purely based on its content and the genuine enthusiasm of his team.

The Editing Process and Editor-Author Relationships

[36:53] Ginny Urch:
Ginny raises a question about the subjective nature of editing, questioning how editors develop discernment without formal degrees in the field.

[36:26] Will Parker Anderson:
Will addresses this by highlighting the importance of championing an author's voice and balancing subjective opinions with objective improvement. He introduces the "five P's" framework for non-fiction editing:

1. Problem: What issue does the book address?
2. Premise: The big idea or solution offered.
3. Personal Angle: Why the author is uniquely qualified to write the book.
4. Promise: How the book will transform the reader.
5. Plan: The journey the reader will take through the book.

Will emphasizes that editing is about enhancing clarity and engagement without overshadowing the author's original voice. He shares a pivotal lesson from editing a pastor's self-published book, where he learned to respect the author's authority and make suggestions rather than imposing changes.

[46:49] Ginny Urch:
Ginny reflects on the often thankless nature of editing, where editors work behind the scenes with minimal public recognition. She shares her concern about how editors juggle multiple contributors, each seeking acknowledgment in the final product.

[46:49] Will Parker Anderson:
Will concurs, illustrating the emotional challenges editors face when competing publishers vie for the same manuscript. He shares a personal anecdote about the rarity of authors explicitly thanking editors by name, underscoring the behind-the-scenes impact editors have on shaping successful books.

Choosing Projects and Dealing with Rejection

[47:08] Ginny Urch:
Ginny inquires about Will’s ability to choose which books to edit and whether there have been moments of regret in his career.

[47:18] Will Parker Anderson:
Will explains that editors typically have the final say in accepting projects, often influenced by competitive publishing dynamics. He discusses the emotional toll of rejection, both from authors and from publishers who may choose other editors. However, he finds solace in believing that meaningful work transcends public recognition.

Influence of Reading on Children and Family Life

[52:18] Ginny Urch:
Shifting the conversation, Ginny highlights Will's involvement in family life and his emphasis on reading to children. She explores how reading fosters imagination, critical thinking, and moral understanding in kids.

[57:16] Ginny Urch:
Ginny shares her own experiences and challenges with reading to her young children, emphasizing the importance of selecting meaningful and engaging books. She references stories like Jessica Joelle Alexander’s Adventuring Together, which creatively addresses family health challenges through literature.

[59:20] Will Parker Anderson:
Will recounts personal childhood memories of outdoor adventures with his family, such as exploring near a cabin in Flagstaff and encountering a bull elk with his mother. These experiences underscore his lifelong appreciation for both nature and storytelling, bridging his professional work with his personal life.

Final Thoughts and Closing

[61:30] Ginny Urch:
Ginny expresses her gratitude to Will for sharing his insights and emphasizes the importance of the editor’s role in both the publishing industry and in shaping messages that influence readers worldwide. She encourages listeners to explore more about publishing and to engage in nurturing reading habits with their children.

[61:35] Will Parker Anderson:
Will thanks Ginny for having him and reaffirms the significance of fostering a love for reading and writing in both personal and professional spheres.

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Notable Quotes

• Will Parker Anderson [04:24]:
  "I take something, the core of an idea, and I try to help an author make it better."

• Will Parker Anderson [14:32]:
  "Books are a way of sharing your thoughts, to serve other people, to make their lives somehow deeper and richer."

• Will Parker Anderson [20:33]:
  "Do I really believe this work is meaningful, regardless of whether it's recognized, celebrated publicly?"

• Will Parker Anderson [36:26]:
  "The goal is not to come in and slash words and to steamroll an author's voice. The goal is to elevate it."

• Will Parker Anderson [49:37]:
  "We're in it to see the author win. And that relationship is between editor and writer is very special."

Key Insights and Conclusions

1. The Multifaceted Role of Editors:
   Editors do more than correct grammar; they enhance the manuscript's structure, clarify the message, and help shape the author's vision without overshadowing their voice.

2. Unconventional Paths to Editing:
   Will's journey from journalism to ministry to editing highlights the diverse backgrounds that can lead to a successful career in publishing.

3. Social Media's Evolving Impact:
   While social media remains influential, there is a growing appreciation for content quality and expertise over follower count, allowing diverse authors to succeed.

4. Emotional and Relational Aspects:
   Editing is emotionally demanding, especially when dealing with rejections and the lack of public acknowledgment. Building strong, trusting relationships with authors is crucial.

5. Valuing Behind-the-Scenes Work:
   Editors contribute significantly to the publishing process, often without visible recognition. Their work is essential in transforming raw manuscripts into polished books.

6. Importance of Reading in Child Development:
   Consistently reading to children fosters their imagination, critical thinking, and moral development, shaping their future loves and understanding of the world.

7. Balancing Professional and Personal Lives:
   Integrating a love for storytelling and nature, as illustrated by Will’s childhood experiences, enhances both personal fulfillment and professional expertise.

8. Encouraging Aspiring Writers and Parents:
   Lists resources like Will’s newsletter and podcast for writers and emphasizes the role of parents in nurturing their children's reading habits.

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This episode provides a comprehensive look into the world of publishing through the lens of a seasoned editor. Listeners gain valuable insights into the intricate processes behind successful books, the emotional landscape of editing, and the profound impact of encouraging reading in children. Whether you're an aspiring author, a parent, or simply a book enthusiast, Will Parker Anderson's experiences illuminate the subtle yet powerful forces that shape the literary world.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Ginny Urch]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a guest on today which I think for some of you is going to be so interesting because he is an editor, like a very high up editor. And I know a lot of people are really interested in writing and writing books. You know, you meet people all the time that are like, oh, I've always had this idea for a book. And so Will Parker Anderson is going to give us a little bit of the insight on that, the backstory we're going to. Will, welcome.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Thank you so much, Ginny. And you're right, a lot of people do want to write books. And as an editor, that's the thing that I probably get. You know, people say it to me the most is, oh, you're an editor. Well, I have this book idea and they immediately launch into a pitch. So I'm used to it, which I.

[Ginny Urch]

Would, I just think I would say that probably a majority of people have a book idea or they've had a book idea over the course of their life that they're like, oh, someday I would really want to write a book. Now, for me, personally, I, I could never do your job. I'm like, I don't even see the typos. I mean, to me, it is a job like an editor. I was like, I couldn't do it. It feels like. Like a magician. Like, how can you. I don't know. To be able to take a whole story and to be able to, like, the order of it, you know, when I've worked with editors, it's like they just pull out all of these different things. So you are a senior editor at Waterbrook in Multnomah in imprint of Penguin Random House. You have done, oh, my goodness, so many cool things. All sorts of compelling books. You've worked with all of these different authors. And then also you have editorial experience with, like, the Chosen and the Gospel Coalition and the Dwell Bible app. So your work is all over the place as a person. I have a math degree and I don't see typos. This is my most embarrassing one. I'm gonna throw out my most embarrassing one right now, Will.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Oh, I love it. Let's go. Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

I've had so many embarrassing. This just happened. It's my most recent. I have a book coming out in May about homeschooling, and my favorite farmer named Joel Salatin wrote the forward. So I'm super excited about it. The forward is fantastic. And so I went to go advertise it on social media. Guess who wrote the forward? And I spelled forward wrong.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Oh, okay. You spelled it like, forward motion.

[Ginny Urch]

I did. F, O, R, W, A, R, D, forward motion. And it even says, like, okay, so, like, here's the book, right? Like, you can see the book and it says forward by Joel Salton with an e. And then someone commented and they were like, yeah, you spelled that wrong. So I could not do that job. So talk to me about what? What type of person becomes an editor? Like, what were your interests as a child? I'm so enthralled.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, like, what kind of weird hobbies did you have that you've ended up here in this dark art?

[Ginny Urch]

No, but I think. I think it's brilliant. Like, my mom. I don't know. There's just some. I don't know what it is. I'm like, I could not. If someone was like, you got to edit this person's book. I can't.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah. Well, I'll keep this brief because I don't want to bore people. But it's funny you ask about that. Like, what does an editor do? Because my friend just invited me. She's a middle school teacher, and she said, hey, our school's having a career fair. Will you come in and do two 50 minute sessions with middle school Students about what it's like to be an editor. And I was like, sure. So one of the things that I did was I taught them the difference between two kinds of editors. You have copy editors who focus much more on grammar and punctuation.

[Ginny Urch]

Forward.

[Will Parker Anderson]

And then you have note to self. Yes, forward. And then you have developmental editors who are much more work in the realm of ideas and shaping the structure of the book, the message of the book, even the order, the hook of each chapter. Intro. So we, we wrote a one line love story on the board. So I asked them, hey, can I get two volunteers? I just need your names. So we write the sentence on the board and I wrote it just. It was a grammatical nightmare. And so then I had the students kind of help me fix it. And I said, okay, was that fun? And they're like, no, that was not fun at all. And I said, well, that's what a copy editor does. And thank goodness that they exist and that's a skill set that they have. But now let's do the work of a developmental editor. And so we added to that sort of bland sentence, which was something like, you know, when Jack met Jill, he knew she was the love of his life. Just very straightforward. But then we added a setting, we added emotion. And we just started putting these other elements into this story to make it better, to make it more interesting to draw in the reader. And I said, okay. So that's what I do. I take something, the core of an idea, and I try to help an author make it better. So it was really fun. I don't know if they thought it was fun. It was also the day before spring break. So, you know, I enjoy it.

[Ginny Urch]

Tell you what, I, I like the person that says, hey, I want you to come and talk to middle schoolers for 50 minutes. Yeah.

[Will Parker Anderson]

What do you do with that time? Yeah, yeah. I was a teacher for a while. Not of middle schoolers, but I definitely came prepared with my activities. So.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, okay. So there's two different kinds.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I.

[Ginny Urch]

And I feel like my mom, she'll. My sweet mother, she, like, it's a fairly common thing. She'll text and she'll be like, you had a typo on your last post, you know, or you need to fix such and such. And she like that. I mean, I think she. Or I don't even know if likes is the right word, but she just sees it.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yes.

[Ginny Urch]

And I don't see it. So the copy editor and the developmental editor and I like for people listening and there's kids that Listen in to hear about all these different types of jobs and careers that are out there.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

At what point in your life did you decide to go that path?

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, great question. The love of writing goes back very early for me. So when I was in elementary school, my parents did a great job of just reading to me all kinds of stories. They read me Narnia, you know, you name it, all the classics. My. Both of my parents were educators, so I had to spend hours after school each day in classrooms where I just had an array of books at my disposal. Pick any popular 90s series, and I was reading it. You know, Berenstein Bears, all that stuff. And so I just read a lot and always loved writing. And I would actually write poems for the people in my family whenever there was a birthday. Looking back, they were terrible. But for like a third and fourth grader, that's how I would spend my time. So I suppose that is a little strange. But I was encouraged and nurtured in my love. And so what started as a hobby or a fascination slowly, I think, became a gift over time. The potential was there. And so, yeah, for parents to nurture that and to even recognize that in their kids is huge. We're trying to find so many ways to evade the smartphone addiction. Right. Internet addiction of our time. And writing is a beautiful way of doing that. So anyways, that's where it started for me. Then I majored in journalism as an undergrad, and so continued my love for writing. People often ask, how does one become an editor? Is there a degree for it? And the answer is no. I would say if I had to give an average, a lot of us were English majors, writing majors, something along those lines. I was a journalism major. But right after College, it was 2009, the recession hit. Newspapers basically all put hiring freezes on, and journalism was really shifting from print to online, believe it or not. I mean, that was happening in 0809 in a big way. So I couldn't actually find a job right out of college in that field. So I went into ministry. I started as an intern as a church, and I did that for the next various roles in churches for the next 12 years.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wow.

[Will Parker Anderson]

But that whole time, God continued to stoke my love for writing. And there were always just these channels for me to use that gift in my jobs. And so at a certain point, people started asking me, I'm not really sure why, but they would say, will, can you edit this book that I'm self publishing? Can you read over this? I had one boss who Said, can you write my resignation letter? And so I wrote that for her. But people just recognized, hey, Will likes to write. And they continue to sort of nurture that gift in me. And so, long story short, as you mentioned, I started doing more and more contract work writing for various organizations and projects, including some of the ones you mentioned. And it was through project I did at the Chosen, actually writing curriculum for them. For this project they were rolling out that I met a fellow editor who was at Waterbrook. And that was my very unconventional path into publishing. I think a lot of people start as an assistant, an editorial assistant, you know, sort of climbing the ladder. I kind of came in from the side and I've loved that because I don't know what, I don't know if you will about the industry. And so the years that I've been doing this, I bring sort of that pastoral and ministry background. And I actually find that that suits me well as I work with different authors and I work with all different kinds of people. But, yeah, in a nutshell, that's how I find myself where I am.

[Ginny Urch]

Who's the most well known author that you've worked with?

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, that's a great question. That's a hard one to gauge because I work with influencers who have hundreds and thousands of followers, but people may not think of them as an author. But I think I'm allowed to say this now. I'm working with John Tyson of Church of the City, and he's just fantastic in every way and so very excited for his next book that will be coming out. Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow, that is exciting. So you come in from the side, you've got all this other different experience, which I do think is a. Is a really cool piece to bring to the table. I have found in my life that some of my favorite books are written by journalists. And I don't know quite why. Like, probably because they're good at looking at all the different sides or, you know, there's been a lot of times, Will, where I've like read a book and been like, gosh, I really like that. It's like, oh, so and so is a journalist, you know, journalism major. So I think even having that background is really cool, whatever you're taught in that sort of situation. This book I read called American Girls by Nancy Jo Sales is. She's a journalist. I mean, it's a phenomenal book.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Oh, what a book.

[Ginny Urch]

And I just read one called the Connection Cure. It just came out that was written by a journalist named Julia Hot. So I think that Background is incredible, Brings so much to the table, like you said, and you did nonprofit work. So what is something then that people. You're in this publishing world, what is something that people. Or it's probably a lot of things, but like that people wouldn't know. Something surprising. Give us something good.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, give us something juicy here. I agree with you that journalists make write great books. So do some academics, academics who know how to not be stuffy but accessible. You know, I think of like the coddling of the American mind, for example, the anxious generation, you know, Jonathan books. Nancy Jo Sales is incredible writer. American Girls is one of the most visceral, intense books I've ever read. But as a father of two little girls, a book that I felt like I needed to read and a book that I passed on. I'm just going to go with the theme that you brought up about those people who write really good books. And I think what most people wouldn't guess probably is that when we get a manuscript for the first time and we open up that word doc, a lot of times it's a mess. And the first go, you know, doesn't resemble the final product in most cases. And that's in reference to the structure of the book, sometimes even the main theme of the book, certainly the title and the subtitle. So it is a labor of love. And the average writer, and this should hopefully encourage people in a way. The average published author really struggles to organize their thoughts. And so what we get as editors is essentially just a brain dump. You know, their heart and mind poured into a word doc. But they really need help developing the handles, the hook. If it leans a lot towards their personal story, they're going to need a lot of help, not just talking about themselves, but using their story as a window through which people can see some greater thing. Whether that's a truth or a persuasive argument or a better way of living, whatever it is, a vision of the better life. Sometimes authors go so deep into their story, they forget to bring readers along. But I would say most people, when they pick up a book, they don't really think about it. Why would you, right. Unless you're sitting in an editor's chair, that this started out really messy and it feels like a sort of parable for our lives. We often feel like a mess. We have these scattered thoughts or dreams, and it's not until we collaborate with others. In the case of writing, it's an editor, but it's not until we sort of circle up together and help one another navigate what it is we're feeling to articulate that and to use it in a way that helps others. Which ultimately is what books are. They're a way of sharing your thoughts, to serve other people, to make their lives somehow deeper and richer.

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[Will Parker Anderson]

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[Ginny Urch]

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[Will Parker Anderson]

Saffron has gotten his hands on some.

[Ginny Urch]

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[Will Parker Anderson]

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[Ginny Urch]

An ancient tale reimagined There is much your father keeps from you, young Kosan.

[Will Parker Anderson]

That's a lie.

[Unknown Speaker]

Where is the Chief Janek of old?

[Ginny Urch]

He probably told you it's just a common gem. You shouldn't be playing with Daddy's things. Look out.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oric.

[Ginny Urch]

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[Unknown Speaker]

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[Ginny Urch]

So I want people to know that you have a newsletter that you send out with weekly.

[Unknown Speaker]

Tips about writing and publishing.

[Ginny Urch]

So if people are interested in learning more, they can go to writerscircle Co. Is that correct?

[Will Parker Anderson]

That's right, yes. So sign up for your newsletter every Saturday. Every Saturday I send out a writing or publishing tip and the goal is to demystify the publishing process because it is confusing and it's daunting for those that are serious about cultivating their writing gift and publishing their work someday if that's a dream that they have, I try to get real practical and just share what I know in that newsletter.

[Ginny Urch]

So if you're listening and you're like a teenager and you're like I want to write a book, sign up for the newsletter. You'll start to get these tips now. It'll give you some direction. Here's a question. Will is it hard? So you know, these things come in as a mess. I've got books out there and I am a math major so this is like not in my wheelhouse at all. Not at All. And when I was a kid, I've told people this, like, I never wrote a second draft to anything because I always felt like uncomfortable reading my writing. It almost felt like nails on a chalkboard. Like how some people don't like to hear the sound of their own voice. I was like, oh, I don't wanna read what I wrote. What if it's super Weir? So I spent my entire childhood, you know, you'd have to turn in, you know, like in school you have to turn in the second draft. I always just returned in my thing and I don't know if anybody ever noticed because there's so many students, like, and no one ever said anything.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

So I never did a second draft. And then, you know, I, I end up in this spot where I'm writing books and working with editors. Is it hard because there's. You don't really get much credit. It's not like it says on the front, John Tyson, edited by Will Parker Anderson. I mean, they might throw you a thank you at the end and it might be a very heartfelt thank you, but they're also like thanking God and their dog and their brother. I just read this book by this guy who was like. And I think the, the company who makes treadmills because every morning I walk on the treadmill while I listen to audiobooks and thank you who made Google Docs and the creator of Zoom. And you know, so like you're, you're in there with all these other people.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Those acknowledge it's needed an editor. It sounds like ye.

[Ginny Urch]

I was kind of entertaining. I was like, this guy's good at gratitude. But, you know, that's funny. How do you do a job that's kind of thankless? That really is a lot of work. Like what you're saying, you get a mess, you turn it into something that is a thing that lasts, that's on shelves around the world.

[Will Parker Anderson]

What a fantastic question. The other day I saw in the acknowledgments of a book I was working on that the author, he did something most don't. So editors are in a decent position. If they're going to thank someone at the publisher, chances are it's going to be me if I worked on the book. And we appreciate that when they do a little shout out to the editor. But this person think they're marketer. And so I just wasn't thinking about it. I just forwarded it to the marketer and I said, hey, check it out. This author really appreciated your work. And he replied back to Me something I'll never forget. He said, I've been doing this for whatever decades. This is the second time an author has thanked me by name after years and years and years of doing it. And so you're right, as a whole, this is what we call behind the scenes work. And coming from a ministry background where I was teaching, from a. Whatever you want to call it, a stage, a pulpit, a platform, there was an adjustment period. But I think for all of us, one of the best questions you can ask is, do I really believe this work is meaningful, regardless of whether it's recognized, celebrated publicly? And that's so, so good to wrestle with. And I've even noticed I sort of have a front row seat to the rapidly moving cycle of attention in publishing. And that's just how our world works. You know, a reel on Instagram is forgotten in mere seconds. A book is typically forgotten in a few years. And we work hard with what we call our backlist to make sure that books that have sold decently keep selling and all of that. But even those that have attention, it's so fleeting and people move on to the next thing so quickly. And so I try really hard not to tie my own value and worth to the number of eyes on what I do or the number of shout outs that I get, but to really enjoy the work itself. Some days I'll be sitting at a coffee shop. Sometimes a friend is next to me who is also a remote worker. I live in Southern California, so it's beautiful. So I'll. I'll hit pause and I'll go for a walk and I'll just thank God, thank you that I get to do this, that I don't. I'm not clocking in and out. I'm not working graveyard shift. Um, it's just such a gift to do what I do. And it's so relational. That's the other thing that I love is I send voice memos back and forth with my authors. I get to sort of steady their nerves as they're freaking out about a chapter that's not working or something they're worried about. I get to speak into the message of a book. And so it's a work in progress, but I'm learning, I'm going to put it that way. I'm learning to enjoy the work and believe that doesn't matter who sees it or doesn't. It's valuable. And God's called me to it in this season and so, so much joy and just appreciating what it is that you're doing rather than worrying about who's noticed. So I have days where like anyone, I wish more recognition was there. But I'm learning to tip the scales a little bit more toward just contentment in what I do.

[Ginny Urch]

Isn't it interesting thing that would probably be something else surprising that someone might not know about the publishing world is that there is a whole team behind it there and there's all sorts of different roles. There's the marketer, there's a person that goes and sells to Target. Like who gets your book into Costco. Costco doesn't even have books anymore, which is so sad because that was actually my dream. I was like, oh, if I could just get my book into Costco. Now they don't have books there. So that dream has been dashed. But that's someone's job, right? It's someone's job to get books into, you know, Christian bookstores or at the, you know, if you attend a church and it's got a little book, like a little coffee shop with some. That's someone's job. Job. And there's this whole team behind the scenes and the book just says their name, you know, that's it usually. Or forward with an e. And they got the person who wrote your forward and that's all that it says. And then maybe the acknowledgments in the back. But what's interesting that you brought up Will about the attention.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And this is something that I've noticed quite a bit is that. So like for instance, I just did this, our podcast just hit a milestone number. And so I put out like these are our top five episodes since it started three years ago. And. And the majority of the top episodes, which are usually accompanying a very influential book for me, for a lot of people.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Those people do not have social media platforms.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Wow.

[Ginny Urch]

And it is the most bizarre thing. Dr. Peter Gray wrote this book called Free to Learn about, you know, the child is biologically designed to self educate. It's phenomenal book. No social media. He's like decently older. And this lady, Michaeline Duclef, journalist, looking at how people parent around the world. Kim John Payne, he wrote this book called Simplicity Parenting. So it's interesting in a day and age where like you're really pushed to have followers and a brand that some of the most influential people, and especially with those books that really stick around, they. They don't. Isn't that weird?

[Will Parker Anderson]

That's refreshing. I would call it refreshing. Yeah. Publishing, like so many industries has been impacted a lot by social media. And so I think in some ways we're trying to figure out what to do with this. And it's a conundrum. Numbers on social media do not always translate to book sales and more and more people are realizing that. But I still don't know that publishers know what to do with it. And so. But you're right. I think a lot of what sells a book is the felt needed that readers can look at the COVID the title, get the basic understanding of what this book is and then say, oh, I need that. And so those ones that you mentioned, I mean, those are written by true experts, right? People who have poured years of research into writing these books and it's no wonder that they've taken off. But yeah, I think we're gonna. This is my hope. I want us to self correct our obsession with social media. For some audiences it makes absolute sense. You look at the influencers and even in the Christian space that I edit for, you know, we have some incredible voices there that TikTok or Instagram really are their primary platform and that makes sense. But there's so many others who, that's not their home. Like a professor or a scientist who is a really good writer and has incredible insights, but they don't want to be recording reels. That makes a lot of sense and they should be able to publish books and be really successful. And I think we are seeing that. You know, you're seeing people who maybe are guests on podcasts and that's more how they're reaching audiences than it is setting up a tripod or an iPhone and filming something. So, yeah, there's space for everyone. But I think it remains to be seen how much social media is going to continue to drive book deals and how significant of a metric it's going to be. I hope that it decreases, but that's my personal bias. So we'll see what happens.

[Ginny Urch]

I have people every once in a while that will reach out and say, you know, I'm, I'm thinking about going for a book deal, putting together a pitch and can I put your name down that you're going to help me promote it?

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And I had one, one lady who reached out and she said, you know, they're not, you know, my social media following isn't large enough and can you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Write something for me?

[Ginny Urch]

You know, that you think that this is a good idea. And, and so that was what I wrote. I wrote that, you know, the majority, not the, you know, so many of these people that I've spoken to that have been so impactful in my parenting that it's going to have a ripple effect for generations to come. Are not big on social media. And I think. And it goes both ways. Just because you're good at reels doesn't necessarily mean that you have enough content to fill a book. So the whole thing is really interesting. And I agree with you. I don't think that the two have, you know, are necessarily correlated. And I'm so grateful for the. I guess the publishing companies that have taken on these authors that have something really important to say despite not having some big social media presence.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, well, you'll appreciate this real fast. So, yeah, I acquired a book last year. The author had, I think, 320 followers total on Instagram, and he wasn't super active. It was a book about birds. It's going to be a book about birds. And I can't say too much about it right now, but how beautiful is that? You know, that I brought it to the team thinking, I don't know if people are going to go for this. And what happened was the room just lit up. There were birders hiding among us on the team. And everyone just said, wow, this is awesome. The writing's really good. This author's name, you know, isn't recognizable on a national level at all. He's just a humble birder and a really good writer. And he landed a book deal with Penguin Random House. I love that story. We also discovered that one of our colleagues is terrified of birds. And so we're teasing her that we're going to assign her to this project, and she's going to have to look at, you know, all these pictures of birds and read about them. But we won't really do that to her. We'll be kind of.

[Ginny Urch]

I love it. There's two ends of it. People that are just so obsessed. I read this book by Douglas Tallamy. It's called Bring Nature Home. And he's talking about just making sure that your yard is accessible for wildlife, if you have a yard. And he calls it Homegrown National Park. And he put in his book, like, all these frequently asked questions he gets. And one of them was like, why should I care about this? I don't even like birds. And he was like, well, because it matters for the whole Earth and the whole ecosystem. But, yeah, some people are just obsessed and other people aren't such a big fan. But Amy Tan, who I learned about through this man named John Muir Laws, who was a nature journaler, dyslexic and he grew up and became this author. And he said there's always going to be people who can do your editing and who can help, you know, to fix your things. And so he grew up journaling and that gave him a lot of confidence. And he talked about this woman named Amy Tan in one of his books who stopped drawing and stopped being creative because a teacher told her she wasn't good in elementary school or something like that. And then she got back into it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Through this Nature Journaling.

[Ginny Urch]

And the Book of the Year, I don't exactly know what it's called, but it's at Barnes and Noble. I think it's called the Gift Book of the Year. It's hers and it's all about birding. That's so Amy Tan. And I thought, what a cool story. And also people do like birds. So I'm excited about this new bird book that we don't know about yet, but maybe we will know about soon.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, we'll need to make sure you get a copy. And you know what's interesting? I host a podcast called Writer's Circle where I talk with authors. And that story you just told is repeated to me all the time. So many authors. I'll ask them something like, when you were a kid, did you ever think that you would publish a book? And a lot of them say no, because I had a teacher or someone in my life tell me that I was a terrible writer or that I couldn't spell or that I was academically below average or something like that, and they can still remember the exact phrase or sentence that was spoken to them. And those words are just so potent. But it's really fun to watch how their story takes them to unexpected places and they find themselves a published author down the road. And I just find that really compelling.

[Ginny Urch]

So, yeah, and then I've read a very few times, but about the opposite. One of my all time favorite authors is named N.D. wilson and he wrote this book called Death by Living. He's written a bunch of kids fantasy books too, but Death by Living and Notes from a Tilt a Whirl. And he said he wanted to be a writer. And he said my dad was like, here's a pencil, write me stuff. You know, he's like, he called my bluff. Like, then go do it if you say you want to be a writer. And he said he's, you know, 11, 12 years old. And it's like, well, read it at the dinner table. What'd you write today? And now he's like creating all of these incredible nature documentaries that honor God. They're called the Riot and the Dance is some of my favorite things I've ever seen. So really a good point that the way that we influence children can be a big deal for long term.

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[Ginny Urch]

Okay, so here's a question.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

You go to edit a book and you, like you said, this isn't really a degree. So I, this is, to me, the whole thing is, is pretty fascinating. Like you don't have a degree in it. You just have. You have life experience. Nobody has a degree in it. You like to write. How do you know? Like it's just your opinion. Like that's what I always think. Like when you get the thing back from the editor, you're like, this was like just their opinion, you know, like that. Well, I don't think the order works and. But how do you find. How do you learn that discernment?

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, that's such a good question. My uncle asked me once and he loves to challenge. So he was saying, how do you know? You're right. Yes, that's a great question. I think the story you just told about the dad who recognized heard his son say I want to write and then said, okay, prove it. You know, write me something and then read it. I think what that dad was doing at the Core is he was championing his son's voice, and he was saying, all right, get words onto the page, and then let's. Let's see how this goes. So I think you're absolutely right. There is a subjective aspect to what editors do, and I think we need to own that. At the same time, when you get into enough books, you start to see patterns. And the whole goal is not to come in and slash words and to steamroll an author's voice. The goal is to elevate it. And so I'm always listening for how can this be clearer? How can I help this story that this author told be a little bit more gripping? And so I like to say I live in the margins so that I'm not violating their voice or writing for them or misrepresenting them. Everything is a suggestion. In fact, one of the books that guides my editing is the famous book how to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. That book talks about how to critique people with kindness, how to navigate disagreements. And writing is such a creative endeavor. And so I've never been in a severe, you know, arm wrestle with an author about, you should do this. No, I shouldn't. Yes, you should. Ever. And the reason is, my policy is the author wins every time. If they feel strongly enough about something, they want to keep it in or they want to do this or that. Absolutely. But I'll make my case. And it goes back to what I was saying is a lot of it's just organizing ideas. And so I'm not changing a writer's ideas. I'm just helping to organize them. And sure, there's infinite ways that you can tell a story, but the goal is just to make it 10% better. If we can take this story and make it 10% better, then that serves you as the writer, that serves the reader, because they're going to be more drawn in. And so, you know, you just listen to Masters of the craft, which I do. I'm always learning. I'm always listening to gurus on storytelling, how to craft an angle.

[Ginny Urch]

Who do you listen to?

[Will Parker Anderson]

Oh, that's such a loaded question. A lot of it is learning through osmosis. So reading good writers. So, like, I'm reading some John Steinbeck right now, but I can give some shout outs here to some people who are doing it really well right now. There's a guy named Nathan Ba who has a newsletter called World Builders, and it's all about storytelling. And his. His stuff there is. He just synthesizes all the best stuff on Storytelling. I love it. There's another writing coach named David Perel who used to run an online writing school, and his stuff is incredible. So I just always have an ear to the ground, and you talk to other editors, and you just start learning, you know, the tricks of the trade. You start learning paradigms for what makes for a good book. Just like a filmmaker would never say, like, well, I have no idea what makes a film better. And now people may disagree, and that's why we have movie reviews just like we have book reviews. But there's these principles that you see over and over working in the publishing industry, and so you just start incorporating those. Here's a quick example. There's something called the five P's. The five P's are just. You just want to have an eye on them as you're writing. This is particular to nonfiction, which I edit. And it's. So the first P is problem. What problem is your book addressing? The next is the premise. What is the big idea, the big solution that your book is offering? One is personal angle. Why are you the person to write this book? In other words, what gives you the authority to speak to this in a way that people are going to want to come to it? Promise is the fourth P. How will readers be transformed by the end of this book? Uh, what is the promise you're holding out that your life is gonna become better in this way? What vision are you casting for the reader? And the last one, the last P is plan. Um, what journey are you taking the reader on? So what, in what order are you gonna lead them through these various ideas in the book? And, you know, that's very basic, but that just gives you a window. I can apply those five Ps to any book and immediately recognize, oh, wow, okay. They're doing a really good job presenting the problem. But the promise has been buried, and readers may not have a clear sense of. They may just be so overwhelmed with the problem. This is wrong. This is bad. Our world's going down. That they've forgotten to offer the promise. Like, here's where I'm leading you. Here's the light at the end of the tunnel. Here's the summit that this arduous climb is eventually going to lead to where you can then rest and look out over how far you've come. And so I think as an editor, I'm always looking for those types of changes and suggestions and improvements that really help authors, you know, to polish their message and market their message, because that matters. Readers should be pulled in immediately we have no time to waste. And so I'm a champion for the writers that I work with. That's always the hope. I don't always get it right. No editor does. But that's certainly my goal.

[Ginny Urch]

And it does really matter because I've had experiences where I've read someone's book and agreed to have them on.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And truly not been super gripped. Grip. Gripping is a really good word.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

But then when they get on to talk about it, I'm like, oh, something they missed. Something got missed because they're so engaging. And I'm like, oh, the book just like missed the mark a little bit because if someone doesn't get a chance to talk with them about it and to hear their heart and to hear their passion, or sometimes I'll be like, I didn't totally understand that part of the thing and that person just explained it, you know, a little bit better. And so it really does matter because it might be there, like it's in them, but it didn't, you know, it didn't come across in this particular. I'm always like nervous that that's how my books are.

[Will Parker Anderson]

It's like, I think Ginny's books grip you. It's a wild ride. It pulls you in right away, all the way till the end.

[Ginny Urch]

But that is the fear is that you are like, you're so, so passionate and there's a problem and you want to have the plan and there's a premise and then it's like you can miss it, you can miss those little elements and then you're, you know that the whole message, the whole medium of the book, it just doesn't land where you're hoping it lands. So I mean, it's such an important job. Here's a question. You've been doing it for a long time, but like at one point you were brand new. You don't have to give any names but like, do you have any regrets? Are you like, shoot, that poor person.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Editor tells all. Yeah, I do. I have a good, good example. So I started freelancing, right. And so I had a pastor ask me if, if I would edit his self published book. So this wasn't attached to a publisher. So we're going through it and I send him back the first few chapters edited and he calls me up and he says, will, I love what you've done here, but I just wanted to ask a clarifying question. Said, okay, shoot. And he said, you're not viewing this project as a co write. Right. Like you're not the second author here. And I was like, well, no, I'm just editing. But what I had done in those early days is I was actually, like, writing things, kind of inserting whole sentences to what I thought was improve his manuscript. And he ended up keeping maybe 70% of what I put in there. But I'll never forget that phone call, because I just.

[Ginny Urch]

Just.

[Will Parker Anderson]

I didn't know yet. I. I hadn't learned that lesson. And so from that point on, even in that project, I moved from being in the manuscript to the margins. And I think that's where I first coined that phrase, like, I live in the margins. Like, that's a sacred boundary that ensures that I'm preserving an author's work as it is. And so now what I'll do is, because, of course, I'm a creative person, I'll read a sentence and I'll be like, oh, if that was phrased this way, and if you add these. This clause, ooh, that really sings. So what I'll do is I'll leave a comment and I'll say, what about this? And I'll give them that option. And if they want to copy and paste it into their own manuscript, that's their choice. I will tell you, a lot of times they do, but I'm also not hurt or offended if they don't. It is, again, the author wins. It's their choice. But, yeah, that's one lesson I really had to learn is, you know, I'm not. I'm a producer, so I'm keeping their chord structure. I'm kind of. This analogy may be more confusing than helpful, but I'm leaving it in the key that they wrote in for the most part. You know, I'm leaving the tempo as is, but I'm just making these subtle suggestions and trying to help them in that way.

[Ginny Urch]

So it's an incredibly supportive role.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, yeah. Wow.

[Ginny Urch]

To give the suggestion of, like, oh, it's a little bit of a zing, and it's you. You wrote it. Their name is on the COVID And.

[Will Parker Anderson]

I will tell you, there are books, for many reasons that editors end up writing a lot of, and no one knows, and it is what it is. But again, why are we in it? We're in it to see the author win. And that relationship is between editor and writer is very special. But I think people would be surprised if they knew how many lines were actually crafted by an editor in some cases.

[Ginny Urch]

So I think it just gives people a little insight into a lot of different types of careers where you can be a support that gets a message out that influences more people than you could ever know or realize. Are you at the point where you get to choose what you edit and was there a point where you didn't get to choose and like, this is the book.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Great question. Yeah, I absolutely get to choose who I work with. It'd be more accurate to say they have to choose me. It's super competitive. So the process is I'll get a proposal from a literary agent saying I've got this author and so, and so like she's writing this book and I'll be like, great. So then I'll discuss it with other editors and then we take it to what we call pub board, where the, the marketers, the publicists, the salespeople, everyone's there. And if everyone's in agreement, yeah, let's, let's try to acquire is the language we use this book and this author, we believe in them and their message from that point. We'll meet with the author, we'll get to know her and then we'll say we'll make an offer. But other publishers are also bidding. And so it is so competitive. And I will say that's. I've actually written on this because authors know rejection thoroughly. It's really hard to be an author. It's really hard to hear no from publishers, to feel like your work is unseen and underappreciated as an editor. The same reality exists where I kind of fall in love with some of these people. I'm like, I really like you. I love your ideas. It's hours of paperwork and logistics and internal shuffling to even make an offer and to go through that time and effort and work only to hear, yeah, we're going with this other publisher. It's really hard. And this veteran editor who's just a legend, I was talking with him the other day and he just said he's retired now, but he said, will you get your heart broken? You know, monthly? And I never had anyone put it like that, but I was like, you're so right. Like you're putting your heart out there. For us as editors, it's not just the bottom line. It's not just chasing authors with huge platforms. We're in this because we believe in the message of a book and we turn down over 90% of what we see proposal wise. So the ones that we go after we really believe can change people's hearts and lives and bring hope to dark places. So anyways, yes, that is the challenge of what we do. Beyond the actual editing of the book is. Acquiring these projects is super, super competitive.

[Ginny Urch]

I'm glad to know that side of it because I wouldn't have thought that I went through the process, you know, and then, you know, obviously you, you know, if you tell one person yes, there's 10 people you tell no.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And I, I guess I wouldn't have really thought like, oh, they probably have a million other people they're talking to one of the publishing companies. It was so creative. They came and like everybody had. Their background was like outside. They had like changed their background to was like some. I was like, that's so cool. But there's so many cool and creative people out there.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Did you choose that publisher? No.

[Ginny Urch]

Now I feel like a jerk.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, I made you feel a jerk.

[Ginny Urch]

Why? I'm gonna tell you why I didn't. Because they wanted me to write the book I wanted to write, which is called until the Streetlights Come on, which is currently out. But they also wanted me to write a devotional, like a 365 day devotional. And I was like, I just can't. Like, it was like the deal included that second book and I've done, you know, different. I had done like an activity book. It's right there. I don't know, it's on the other side. It was so hard. It was so laborious. And like those books, they don't hardly pay you anything for. And so I was like, I can't. I don't have the capacity to do that second book. That was really the only reason was because I was like, I don't. I can't do the deal in that way.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And now I kind of feel bad about it.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Well, don't feel bad. Don't feel bad. I, I actually think anytime an industry favors the artist and puts them first and you have, you know, these publishers trying to woo them, I, I would much prefer that than an industry that exploits the artist and takes advantage of them or sign, offers them a deal. But now they're on the hook to pay all the money back if it doesn't work out. I mean, publishers eat that money if a book doesn't sell. And I actually celebrate that because I think it's a natural checks and balances that's worked in, that holds us accountable to take on books that we actually believe in. It's not just lip service, but it also provides a safety net for authors that they don't have to worry and lose sleep over the fact that if this book does not sell as well as they hoped they still get to keep their advance, and they may have another shot at it down the road, hopefully. So that's the other side of it. But the immediate emotion of losing a deal to another publisher is never fun.

[Ginny Urch]

Oh, I'm glad to know that. And I'm sure people. That's another surprising thing that people probably don't know. I had no idea what the process was like until I went through it a few years ago. Okay. We've talked a ton about writing, and people can listen to your podcast, Writer's Circle. They can go to WriterCircle Co and sign up for your newsletter, weekly tips about writing and publishing. But you also talk a lot about faith, you talk about marriage, and you talk about parenting. I've given us 11 minutes.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, we'll just knock it out. We'll just knock it out.

[Ginny Urch]

It is interesting that you can talk about the writing process for quite a while, and I think part of the reason is because it is something that's so common.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

I mean, most people have books in their home. A lot of people have a lot of books in their home. It's so common. Books are everywhere. They're at the airport, they're at the library. You know, you have them in your purse, whatever. Books are so common, and yet I would say the vast majority of people don't know the process of becoming an author and how that works, even though a lot of people would love to write a book someday. So I can see how you can have a whole podcast about it and a newsletter that comes out every single Saturday. You can easily talk for hours and hours about the writing process and the background and how it all works. But you talk about, in terms of family life. Oh, how about spiritual practices to keep yourself balanced and help your kids pursue their dreams? Oh, these are really big questions. Let me ask you some existential questions when we have 10 minutes left.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Will I love it? Well, I have three young kids, so if I don't have a answer at the tip of my tongue, something's wrong here. Of course, I'm always looking to learn from other people, but to sort of tie the two together. Reading is a beautiful way to teach children to spend time with children, to inspire their imagination, to even teach them truth. But I will say, and this is just real talk. It's a hard discipline as a parent after a long day. You know, we don't do a lot of shows, and actually no shows on on weekdays at all. No tv. We're not just putting something on and saying, see you later. But It's a discipline that we take very seriously in our house. And of course, people are like, you're an editor, of course you do. But we shape our children's loves in their formative years. And in a world that's. I mean, Audible is on the rise. Audiobooks, we're seeing a huge spike. So people are starting to listen to books more than actually read them. And I get all that. But I love the fact that there's just something about sitting with my kids, opening a book, the wonder that comes out of them, even the questions. I used to sort of get frustrated at times because my kids would ask so many questions as I'm reading, and I'm like, I just want to get through this book. And then I caught myself and realized, no, this is actually beautiful. Slow down. Don't worry as much about getting through the book, but just enjoy it. So we've created rhythms in our home of just reading to our kids. And one of those is every morning at breakfast. Here's the thing, okay? All my kids are 5 and younger, so they're squirrely, and it's really hard for them to sit. And so I recognize when they're at the table, yes, there's still distractions. There's always distractions with little ones. But I actually found it's a better time to read to them than at the end of the day when they just want to go bananas and go nuts. And really, what they want at the end of the day is for me to tell them a silly story. So that's what I do then. But at breakfast, they're kind of, you know, they're just waking up, they're eating. And so, yeah, that's one of our rhythms. And we read to them every day. The other thing I would say about reading to kids is that I recognized how much influence books have, specifically in their minds. Like, they're such sponges. And they memorize books so my daughter can recite Go Dogs Go word for word from start to finish. And I was like, this is crazy. The. The neuroscience on this has been well documented, but the rate at which kids absorb information is insane. And so that made me ask, what books am I reading to them? Because essentially, they're memorizing all these books. So what. What kinds of messages and stories and truths and worlds do I want them to be ingesting? And, like, they're going to carry these with them for the rest of their life. And I was very convicted because, like anything, there's a lot of just dumb books out there that really aren't sparking wonder. Like there's not even really a moral to a lot of them. They're just kind of there. And so really holding myself to a high standard of what I read my kids. And the good news is there's so much good stuff out there for children. I'm sure you've talked with many of your guests about that, but. Yeah, I just think books in the lives of kids, it's low hanging fruit for us if we just want to again, broaden their imagination, deepen their knowledge, engage with critical thinking and questions and all of those things. So that's one rhythm we have in our house. A predictable one, admittedly, but one that we really believe in.

[Ginny Urch]

I loved how you said it facilitates conversation. They're asking questions and that can be annoying. But I talked to this woman really recently named Jessica Joelle Alexander, and she wrote a book about parenting, the Danish Way. I don't think that's actually the title, but it's something like that.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, we have that book.

[Ginny Urch]

What's that one?

[Will Parker Anderson]

We have that book.

[Ginny Urch]

You have that one? Yeah, it's a great book. Well, she talked about how in that one that in like the Danes, the, the fables and things are different. So in particular she talked about the Little Mermaid. You know, I'm like, gosh, I grew up on the Little Mermaid, like kiss the girl and they end up together and. But she says that it's totally different. The Danish version is totally different. She doesn't get Prince Eric, she turns into Seafoam. And you're like, well, there's a very, very different ending than the movie that I grew up on. But what she said was, is that those different endings facilitate conversation and they're a little bit more realistic. Like, not everything has this shiny happy.

[Unknown Speaker]

Ending all the time.

[Ginny Urch]

Wow. And I, I love that. So if your kids are interrupting and asking questions about the things, that's a good thing. And our kids are older, they're still squirrely. I mean, you kind of think they're going to hit this age where they're just going to like politely sit there and know. But they're kicking each other, you know, they're poking.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Oh, yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

It just, it's always like that, but I still think it matters. And you end up with all these little inside jokes. My friend Greta wrote a book called Adventuring Together, and she talked about how her mom had poor health and so couldn't get outside much with the kids in Adventure. But she said, we adventured through books and we had all of those Themes that bound us together as kids and as siblings. So. Okay. Will Parker Anderson, I've never had an editor on the podcast, let alone a senior editor, so I feel so honored. What an honor. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate all you're doing and I know that all everyone who's listening is going to be interested to find out this more more about the background of publishing and be inspired to read more with their kids. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[Will Parker Anderson]

Oh, goodness. Yeah. I have so many to draw from. My dad in particular, isn't an avid backpacker and just always took us outdoors. I think a favorite memory every summer. So I grew up in Phoenix and we of course it's triple digits, like 120 outside. Everyone's dying in the summer, so we would go to Flagstaff for a couple weeks. We'd stay at our friend's cabin and we would explore. So if you would walk out the back door of the cabin, there was this barbed wire fence because there were cattle that the farmers would raise in the woods, but there was a gate so you could get back into the woods. And I just have so many memories of exploring back there, of discovering things. One time my mom and I were hiking. It was as the sun was setting. And all of a sudden, I don't know how we didn't see it, but we just come face to face with this bull elk that's towering over us and it bugled. That's how we first saw it. So just scared the heck out of me as a kid, right? This massive animal and. But we just stood there and we locked eyes with it and it was just this like, sacred wild moment that my mom and I had together. And so I often think about that or the thunderstorm. So in Flagstaff in the summer, you get these monsoons every day, almost like 3, 4pm they roll in, you get crazy thunder and lightning. And so I just remember my heart racing as a kid a couple times being kind of stranded outside, whether we were fishing or hiking. And one of these storms would roll in. So just that that humbling encounter with nature up there in Flag. I think of those days really fondly all the time.

[Ginny Urch]

And it's interesting because you talked about how you had a lot of reading in your own childhood and then this outdoor time, and that has stuck with you. You still enjoy being outside with your wife and your kids and obviously being involved with all of these authors and the work that is going out into the world. Thank you so much for being here.

[Will Parker Anderson]

Yeah, Ginny, thank you so much for having me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you want to learn the Bible in a way that's encouraging, surprising, and even entertaining? Check out the Bible Stories podcast. Each week, Bible Stories brings you classics, you know, and hidden gems that you might have missed. Have you ever heard about the time that King David fought a giant and he lost? Or when Paul preached so long a guy fell asleep he tumbled out a window and had to be brought back to life? Did you know that God himself buried Moses and that Michael the Archangel, angel and the devil fought over Moses' body? Yeah, it gets wild. So tune in for storytelling that's biblical, insightful, and a lot of fun. Subscribe today to Bible Stories with Matt Mullins and Todd Hamans, available wherever you get your podcasts.