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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 496: Peace Over Panic - What Stories of Death Teach Us About Life | Lee Strobel, Seeing the Supernatural
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- [00:01]
Lee Strobel
Imagine raising your children and going through your entire life never having seen a Bible in your own language, never being able to open God's word for comfort, truth, or direction. For many around the world, that's reality. But that is changing. CREW has missionaries in nearly every country, and they are seeing people come to faith in Jesus in incredible numbers. In Africa, believers are sharing one Bible among entire communities. In Europe, teens are asking for Bibles faster than we can provide them. And in places where Christianity is underground, the gospel is exploding, but access to scripture has not caught up.
- [00:31]
Jenny Yur
That's why I love partners.
- [00:32]
Lee Strobel
Partnering with Crew. They're working to put Bibles into the hands of those who are desperate for truth. With just 24amonth, you can give three people the gift of God's word every month. And as a thank you, crew will provide 12 meals to those in need. And you'll receive a free copy of my book until the street lights come on. To give, text our H o u r to 71326 or visit give.crew.org hour that's H O u r to 71326 message and data rates may apply US addresses only. Your monthly gift can truly make a massive and eternal impact.
- [01:07]
Jenny Yur
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Yur. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I read Lee Strobel's books as a kid. I read the Case for Christ. We've read those as a family with our own children. This is one where mostly, Lee, like, we've had about 500 episodes. Like, my parents, they're like, who. Who did you have on? When I was like, Lee Strobel. They were like, well, we know him. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the show thing.
- [01:36]
Lee Strobel
You make me feel so old.
- [01:37]
Jenny Yur
But no, no, that wasn't my. That was not my intent.
- [01:41]
Lee Strobel
Actually, I am old, so wasn't my intent. That's awesome.
- [01:46]
Jenny Yur
But just say you've been influential in our family for a long time and also that you're giving me cool points.
- [01:52]
Lee Strobel
With my parents, so.
- [01:54]
Jenny Yur
Because they know who you are and they don't typically know who anyone else is. So I'm super honored. You just wrote a new book and it just came out within the last couple months. It's called C. Seeing the Supernatural. And actually, it was a surprising. I was surprised by it. Now maybe other people are, too, because the Case for Christ, it's all about, like, evidence. And, you know, how do we know that something is real and not real? And so then you're like, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. Which direction is he gonna go with angels and demons and dreams and near death encounters and the, the mysteries of the unseen world. Would you say that most people have been sort of surprised by this direction?
- [02:33]
Lee Strobel
A little bit, yeah. And, you know, most of my books, or many of them, have the case in the title. The Case for Christ, the Case for Faith, the Case for Hope, the Case for Easter, the case for Christmas, etc. And this doesn't. So it's a little different in that way too. But, you know, I'm. It's similar in the sense that my background's in journalism and law. I'm always looking for evidence, I'm looking for corroboration, I'm looking for empirical facts. And so when I investigate things like the supernatural, things like angels or demons or supernatural dreams or deathbed experiences and things like that, I'm really looking for cases where I've got documentation, where this is not just a story you read in the Internet, but this is something that has been documented by researchers, published some of that in peer reviewed medical journals and things like that. When I look at miracles, for instance, I'm looking at cases that have been published in medical journals. So I'm looking for data that tells us that there really is more to existence than what we can see, touch and put in a test tube.
- [03:35]
Jenny Yur
Yes. Okay, so give us a little bit of your background. I'm sure most people know, but if they don't know. So this is what you did with faith.
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Unknown
Yeah.
- [03:42]
Jenny Yur
You were like, well, do I believe? Do I not? And you, and you go on this, this study, you go on like you talk about being a journalist and looking for evidence. Can you talk just a little bit like you were an atheist and now you have. I mean, like you said, there are so many case for books, the case for miracles, the case for hope, the case, you know, I, it's the case for a creator. Coming from an, you know, a former atheist.
- [04:04]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:05]
Lee Strobel
I was an atheist for much of my life. My wife was agnostic. And one day we moved into a condo building in Chicago where I was legal editor of the Chicago Tribune. And there was a woman downstairs who was a Christian and a nurse. And she became best friends with my wife and they would have long conversations about spiritual stuff. And Leslie, my wife, went to church with her and checked things out. And then she came up to me one day and gave me the worst news any atheist husband could get. She said, I decided to become a Christian. And I thought, oh, no, here it comes, you know, turned into some holy roller or something. And so the first word through my mind was divorce. I was going to walk out, but then I thought maybe I could take my journalism training and legal training and disprove this cult that she's gotten involved in. And I thought, that can't be that hard, because I knew, even as an atheist, that Christianity is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And I also also knew that dead people don't come back to life after three days. So I thought, give me a long weekend, I can probably disprove the resurrection of Jesus. Well, I spent two years of my life investigating the historical data concerning the resurrection. Not just the resurrection, but also the reliability of the Bible, also things like science and faith and so forth, until finally I sat down one day and I looked at the evidence and I said, you know what? In light of this avalanche of evidence that points so powerfully toward the truth of Christianity, and it would take more faith to maintain my atheism than to become a Christian. In other words, the scales just tilted decisively. And that's when I came to faith in Jesus and my life, my values, my character, my morality, my relationships, my parenting, our marriage. All these things, over time, have changed for the good.
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Jenny Yur
Wow. What a remarkable story. And what a remarkable story about the woman, the nurse who chose to have those conversations and how it's like nobody knows her name.
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Unknown
Yeah, yeah.
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Jenny Yur
People know your name, they don't know her name.
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Lee Strobel
That's right.
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Jenny Yur
But she really was the catalyst to that.
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Lee Strobel
She really was.
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Jenny Yur
In our own lives, we don't know. You don't know what you're the catalyst for.
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Lee Strobel
And you know what? She did? The simplest thing. We moved into this condo building, she brought over a plate of cookies, and that's what started the whole thing. A plate of cookies that she just welcomed the new neighbor. And she happened to have a little daughter who was the same age as our little daughter. They became best friends and. And, you know, the whole direction of our family was transformed because of that simple encounter of just an act of hospitality. And sometimes we don't take that very seriously. It's just, I'm going to go bring some flowers to someone who lost a relative or whatever. Simple hospitality and gestures of kindness that can blossom into something profound.
- [06:46]
Jenny Yur
Yeah. And something huge. I mean, the amount of books that you have based off of that plate of cookies is remarkable. And she could never have known that. So it's just such a reminder. Reminder to be faithful in the small things. So you talk about in this book, it's called Seeing the Supernatural, that there is actually a lot of interest in.
- [07:04]
Lee Strobel
This, which is true.
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Jenny Yur
But I think in a Christian circle sometimes you feel weird talking about it. But you wrote 8 out of 10Americans believe there is something spiritual beyond the natural world. So I'd love to start here, especially since you brought up the fact that you felt like you would have to have more faith to not believe than to believe. And I feel that similarly with like, did we come from nothing?
- [07:23]
Lee Strobel
Right.
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Jenny Yur
To me that doesn't make sense. And I've talked about this before, but in high school, at our public high school, they did this creation versus evolution debate. They brought in these people and the one person said it would be like if you threw a bunch of pieces into a paper bag, like your lunch bag, and you shook it and out came a microwave. That's the chances of, of all of this happening from like nothing or an explosion or whatever.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Jenny Yur
And so you go further, which I've never considered this about consciousness.
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Unknown
Yes.
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Jenny Yur
Can you talk about the human consciousness? About that? That's something that science can't explain.
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Lee Strobel
Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's three basic things that atheists can't explain. I say that as a former atheist. They can't explain the origin of the universe, where did it come from? They can't explain the fine tuning of the universe. Where did that come from? It's fine tuned on a razor's edge so that life can exist. And three, they can't explain the origin of human consciousness. Human consciousness is our first person perspective of reality. It's the locus of our introspection and our emotions and so forth. Atheists will claim that we're nothing more than a brain and we're just a bunch of chemical processes. But Christians would say, well, that's not true. There's also a soul. We are a hyphenate character. In other words, there's a connection. There's a physical brain, but interacting with that is an immaterial soul. So how do we know there's a soul? And I have a chapter on that with an interview with a PhD from Cambridge University in England. What's interesting is she used an example. She said, what if a woman was the world's leading expert on sight? She understood how vision works. She understood how the chemicals of the brain and neurons and so forth transported visual impulses and transformed them into visual images. She understood the structure of the eye and all this stuff. But she was blind. What if one day she all of a sudden Was given her eyesight, would she learn anything new at that point about vision? Well, yeah, I think she would. And so that means the physical facts alone cannot explain the first person experience of consciousness. No amount of knowledge about the physical work in the eye and the brain would get her any closer to the experience of what it's like to actually see. So consciousness simply cannot be synonymous with just brain activity. There's got to be more than just a physical brain. There is a, a immaterial soul or consciousness.
- [09:56]
Jenny Yur
And it's like, well, where does that come from?
- [09:58]
Lee Strobel
Yeah.
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Jenny Yur
And you wrote about how the animals don't have it. Yeah, to me, actually this is my least favorite thought. It like trips me out every once in a while. I think I am me. And I actually kind of hate is bizarre. Consciousness is a bizarre, bizarre thing. You look at your kids and they're like they're looking out through their own eyes and their own soul. And you talk about how as an atheist, no one can explain that. And you wrote this, that sometimes you don't need extraordinary proof.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Jenny Yur
You just need sufficient evidence.
- [10:31]
Lee Strobel
Right, right. Some people will say, and I used to say this as an atheist, oh, well, the idea that there's a God in a supernatural realm, that's an extraordinary claim. Well, you need extraordinary evidence if you're going to prove an extraordinary claim. That's just not true. First of all, throughout history, over 90% of all cultures in the world believed in the existence of a God and in a supernatural realm. So it's not an extraordinary claim to say that God exists and the supernatural realm exists. That's been accepted by cultures throughout history. So you're not making an extraordinary claim. The extraordinary claim would be there is no God. Atheism is the extraordinary claim. So the onus would be on you as an atheist. But secondly, you just need good evidence. You know, I use the example of what if a friend called me up, said, hey, have you heard the news? A spaceship has landed on the mall in Washington D.C. now that would be an extraordinary event. That creatures from some other planet had landed on our world, that would be an extraordinary claim. Now would I believe it? Well, you know, if I saw it covered on mainstream media and on reliable sources of information and I saw coverage of it and photos of it and so forth, I would believe it. So I just don't need extraordinary evidence that there's a supernatural realm and that God exists. I just need sufficient evidence to convince me that it's true. And you know, we talk about consciousness, one of the strongest elements to Prove that we have a immaterial aspect to us is near death experiences. Where we have cases where people are clinically dead, their physical body is dead, no brain waves, no heartbeat, no respiration. And yet when they're later revived, they say, I was conscious the whole time. Their consciousness survived. And they actually watched the efforts to resuscitate their own bodies. And they see, here's the key again, I go back to corroboration. They see things and hear things independent of their body that would have been impossible for them to see or hear unless they really had an out of body experience.
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Jenny Yur
Like what someone was wearing or what was the food that they ate or that type of thing.
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Lee Strobel
Exactly. We have a case where a woman was bled to death in a hospital in England. And she said, but I was conscious the whole time. And she said, her spirit separated from her body, her consciousness, just as the Bible describes. And she was watching from her perspective at the ceiling of the hospital room as they tried to revive her body. Well, when she was revived, she said, oh, by the way, there's a ceiling fan here in the hospital room. On the top of one of the blades is a red sticker. And she described it in great detail. Well, you couldn't see it from the hospital room because it's on the top of the blade. But they got a ladder and they went up and they looked and sure enough, here was the red sticker, just as she described as something she could not have seen unless her spirit really did separate from her body. And she did have that perspective from the ceiling of her hospital room, looking down at her body being resuscitated.
- [13:34]
Jenny Yur
Isn't it interesting that when you take life from this perspective, and this is important because there's this woman named Dr. Meg Meeker, and she came on our show and wrote a book about raising boys. She's written great books.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Lee Strobel
But in her book about raising boys.
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Jenny Yur
Which is like, they need a rough house and they should be outside, she had a chapter that said, kids need God.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Jenny Yur
And I was actually surprised that it.
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Lee Strobel
Was in the book.
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Jenny Yur
But then she went kind of like you went through the scientific studies that say, no, this really helps. And when you read in your book about the near death experiences and someone said they should be called not near death, they're like, I was dead dead. I was actually flatline. There was a story about someone for 40 minutes and then the cardiologist felt like he should pray and there was a miracle. So, yeah, when you read these things, it actually brings you a lot of peace. Yes, it's very interesting. You think that it would be scary. And even as a Christian, people of faith, I don't feel like they talk about this stuff very much. People don't really talk about angels. I've never heard about a near death experience or even death at all. I read a book recently called the Good Death and it was phenomenal. And it was about how death used to be part of the life experience. Right. The body would be in the home and people would reminisce and then they would have these opportunities at the end of life to have discussions with their loved ones. And the loved ones would say, like what you're talking about in this book. You know, my husband's there. I see. My grand, My grandmother. I see. And it brings so much peace.
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Unknown
Yes.
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Jenny Yur
It's amazing what it can do for your soul.
- [15:05]
Lee Strobel
It really is. And you're right, people don't talk about this very much. And what's interesting, I've been a Christian now since 1981. I've never heard a sermon on the topic of angels. And I think there's a reason for that. And I think the reason is in the United States, a lot of Christians want to be respectable. They want to be respected by their neighbors. And so they'll say, of course I'm a Christian, I go to church and I believe in God and I believe in Jesus and I believe in heaven. But I'm not going to talk about that weird stuff, you know, I'm not going to talk about angels and demons. And I'm not one of those weird Christians, you know, well, Jesus was an exorcist, Jesus cast out demons, Jesus did miracles, and Jesus believed in angels. And so if you're going to be a follower of Jesus, it makes sense that we would also believe in these other elements that the Bible teaches about. So I don't think we need to be embarrassed by it. I learned honestly doing this research for my book because my approaches to interview scholars and experts on these topics, I learned a lot myself. That has changed my prayer life. Just in some of the things I've learned in my research for this book into the supernatural.
- [16:07]
Jenny Yur
It's impressive that you went there. That was one of the things that I thought just from the very beginning, which is, you know, here you have this career and Persona and it, you know, you exude evidence. That's why I was saying I was like the supernatural, angels and demons, like this seems like a veer off. And I know you talked about books with books about miracles in the past, but yeah, there's really an interesting one coming from you in particular. And this woman who was talking about the good death, she said similar things. Like when you talk about 88% of patients report deathbed visions.
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Unknown
Yes.
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Jenny Yur
Which for the most part now, some of them you say are not positive, but a lot of them are peaceful and light and love.
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Unknown
Yes.
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Jenny Yur
And she was this lady, her name is Suzanne. She was talking about when we're so afraid of death and when we have such a frantic push to extend life and to do everything possible that so many families are missing. Yeah, it's really a gift.
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Lee Strobel
Yeah, it really is. And look at children who die, as sad as that is. And it is very sad. And yet when children die, often they have a pre death vision that comforts them to the extent that they're consoling their parents in that situation. In other words, you know, if you have a child and you drop them off at daycare, they freak out, they cry. I don't want to be. I want to be separated from my mommy and my daddy. You know, they freak out, they don't want to be separated. And yet many young children who are dying are the ones that are comforting their parents and saying, it's okay, it's all right. And I'll give you an example. There was a little girl, she was probably 5 years old or so, and she was dying. She saw a vision, a pre death vision. I have a chapter in my book about these visions. 88% of people have these visions before they die of the world to come. And she saw her, her father, she saw a deceased rel relative, she saw Jesus and it comforted her. And so she was consoling her parents. Now what's interesting is the vision that these children have before they die is not what you would expect if these were merely projections of their subconscious mind. I'll explain what I mean by that to a child. What does an angel look like? A cartoon character. Right. An angel has big wings. Because all cartoon characters of angels have big wings. But of course, the Bible doesn't say that angels have big wings. All of them. And so we have a case, it's in a doctoral dissertation about a young girl who was dying. And she says to her mom, and this is very common, I see angels here in the room. They're coming for me. These angels are so beautiful. Listen to their singing. It's so beautiful. And her mother, oh, well, yeah, I see them. Look at their big wings. And the little girl said, oh, mommy, you don't have to lie. They don't have big wings. And she went on to describe them in vivid detail. Now, if this were just a projection of their subconscious mind and she was imagining these angels coming for her, then you would think she would picture angels like a cartoon with big wings. But she didn't. And children don't see them that way, you know. And if you look in the Bible, in Luke 16:22, Jesus talks about how angels accompanied a beggar by the name of Lazarus after he died, angels accompanied him to the next world. And this is very common that people see angels coming for them on their deathbed. Extremely common.
- [19:34]
Jenny Yur
Wow. And it's just a, it's a very distinct line, I think, between like terror and peace, that when you have these, when you read these things in your books, or if you are fortunate enough to have the experience of a good death in a way that it feels like God made it, the book actually really reminded me a lot of birth. It's like a natural process and it's a time to reflect and it gives the people who come after you a chance to remember that our life is short and that, you know, we want to make sure that we do all we can with it.
- [20:05]
Lee Strobel
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- [22:10]
I'm Orek, son of Chief Janek. I'm the co son or heir of Pahar.
- [22:15]
Unknown
Nothing of consequence will ever happen here.
- [22:18]
Jenny Yur
An event of great consequence has just occurred.
- [22:23]
Lee Strobel
I am Lord Saffron. My kingdom's expansion is like a wildfire. Saffron has gotten his hands on some Galda stone. A stone unrivaled. Valiant. Are you in power? Run Jesus Film Project and Family Life Present A full cast audio production of an ancient tale reimagined There is much.
- [22:44]
Jenny Yur
Your father keeps from you, young Kosan.
- [22:46]
Unknown
That's a lie.
- [22:47]
Lee Strobel
Where is the Chief Janek of old? He probably told you it's just a common gem. You shouldn't be playing with Daddy's things. Look out. The Road to K Luma.
- [23:09]
Jenny Yur
Wow.
- [23:10]
Lee Strobel
Exciting. That was the trailer for the Road to K Luma, a five episode fantasy audio adventure designed for the whole family, inspired by one of Jesus's great parables. If you're looking for engaging screen free entertainment for the summer, this is for you. I am personally really excited about this because these are relatable and fun characters. The storytelling is incredibly immersive and it offers the ability to hear a parable in a whole new way. This would be a perfect thing to listen to as a family this summer as you head out on any road trip adventures together. To listen, learn more or access discussion guides and other bonus content, click the link in the description.
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Jenny Yur
And so you wrote Mere chance can't explain this. If 88% of patients report such deathbed visions and that there's all of these similarities, that's not. I mean, you've never died before, so it's not like you get to practice for it or round two. And this time I'm gonna say this. No, it's just sort of what naturally happens. And it gives a lot of peace to those who are left with that hole. I had one of our children, we've got five kids and one of them was, they were all kind of clingy, but one of them was the most clingy. And she said to me one time, she said, mommy, if I die before you, will you be waiting for me in heaven? And that really stuck out to me. When you talked about how kids are afraid to be left with a babysitter or in the church nursery or they, you know, they're screaming to go to preschool when, you know, they get dropped off that preschool. They're so scared to be alone. And yet here they are, five, six years old and it says they are announcing that they're looking forward to the other side.
- [24:53]
Lee Strobel
Yeah, it's really a remarkable phenomenon and it shows that these pre death visions can be very comforting to people. And again, the corroboration to show that these are real. I'll give you an example. There was a woman named Doris, she was dying in a hospital in London, another woman there, and she had a pre death vision and she saw the heavens open up. She saw angelic beings. She saw her father who had died several years earlier. And then she got a real puzzled look on her face and she said, wait a minute, why is Vita with my father? What's Vita doing there? Why would Vita be there? And then she died. Well, Vita was her sister. And Vita had died a couple of weeks earlier. But nobody had told Doris because Doris was so sick. They didn't want the shock to kill her. So she was unaware that her sister had died, and yet she's having a vision of her on her deathbed seeing her sister in heaven. That's a kind of corroboration that tells me that this is more than just, you know, wishful thinking on people's part. In fact, two researchers studied 3,000 of these cases and they concluded, quote, these are definitely not hallucinations, fantasies or memories caused by grief, nor are they projections of the subconscious mind or products of an overactive imagination. These are authentic experiences that people are having. And the fact that they are so common argues again for their authenticity. Because if they only happen once in a great, great while, you know, then atheists would say, oh, of course, you know, billions of people have died over the years. Every once in a while it's going to be a weird anomaly. Don't give it any credence. But the fact that it is so common really does reinforce the fact that it's authentic. I was having dinner in, in Oklahoma City recently, and there were seven of us at dinner. And of the seven people there, four of us have personal experiences of people in our families who had a deathbed vision. It's amazingly. In fact, I would encourage your viewers next time you have a big family get together at Christmas or Easter or something. You know, does anybody in our family know about anybody who's had a vision before they died of something to come? And you'll be shocked at how many people say, oh, yeah, didn't you know about Aunt Mary? I was doing the research on this and I said to my wife, I'm telling her things. She said, lee, don't you remember what happened to my dad? And I had forgotten. Her dad had died 20 years ago. But on his deathbed, he was in hospice. My wife came to visit him and he was all agitated. He said, where's Marge? Where's Marge? And she said, what are you talking about? I said, marge was just here. She was just talking to me. I was, where did she go? And, well. And then he died. Well, Marge was his sister who had died two days earlier, but nobody had told Al because again, they didn't want to upset him on his deathbed. So he was unaware that Marge had died and yet he had been having a conversation with her just before Leslie came into his room. So, you know, so many families have these kind of stories. It's just absolutely remarkable. And as you say, most of them are positive. There are negative ones, though. We have to be honest about that. About 24% of near death experiences are horrific. And a certain percentage, it varies among deathbed visions are negative as well, which would make sense if the Bible is true.
- [28:19]
Jenny Yur
Yeah. It's interesting because you open the door, I think, to these stories with your book because like you said, I mean, nobody really talks about this kind of stuff. And yet it is the difference, I think, between peace and terrorism surrounding death. Something that people are, you know, so afraid of. You wrote, it's as if the dying aren't fading away, but rather are making a transition to another conscious realm. So once again, back to the consciousness piece. And also the closer they are to death, the more likely they are to report that those on the other side basically are walking them home, have come to accompany them to the afterlife.
- [28:51]
Unknown
Yeah.
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Jenny Yur
So talking about unaware, you had this remarkable, remarkable story. Now, I just interviewed Candace Cameron.
- [28:58]
Unknown
Yes.
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Jenny Yur
Last week, actually a week ago today. And you did an interview with Candace's sister Bridget, who I had read in Candace's book that Bridget was sometimes her stand in on Full House.
- [29:08]
Lee Strobel
Oh, I didn't know that.
- [29:09]
Jenny Yur
So Bridget was talking about her new book, and the story is remarkable.
- [29:15]
Unknown
Yes.
- [29:16]
Jenny Yur
She thinks she loses her baby. Can you tell the story?
- [29:18]
Lee Strobel
Yes. Bridget was pregnant and she had a miscarriage at home, and she lost her child to this miscarriage. And she's very upset, of course, and she called her mother to say, I'm going to the hospital. And. And her mother said, well, whatever you do, don't let him take you into the operating room until you've had a ultrasound. So she didn't know why she said that, but okay. So she gets to the hospital and they're going to take her into the operating room. And she said, you know, I'm not going to go until you do an ultrasound. So reluctantly, they did an ultrasound, and guess what? They found another baby inside of her. There were two children. She was carrying twins and she didn't know it, and she lost one of them, but the other one was healthy and the other one she carried her full term and was born. And is her daughter today? Well, when her daughter was a youngster, I think four or so years old, she came up to her mom one day and said, mommy, do I have a sister? And that surprised her because they hadn't told her about the miscarriage and this twin that had been carried because she's too young to really understand it. So she said, well, why do you ask? And she said, because this girl comes to me in my dreams and says, she's my sister. And we play together and we chat, we talk about things. And the weirdest thing is she looks just like me. Wow. I thought there's. Isn't that an interesting phenomenon, that God would allow that to happen?
- [30:40]
Jenny Yur
Unbelievable. And so this is one of the things you also talk about in the book, is these things that are unbelievable. The little girl didn't know. And then she says, she added emphatically, she looks just like me. Do you see her a lot? All the time, she said, and she looks just like me. Then you talk about. These are the things, though, that Christians don't tend to talk about. One of the other stories talk about is that sometimes people will hear from the deceased, like, where the money was hidden.
- [31:07]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [31:08]
Jenny Yur
Was that. I mean, some people be like, no, that's unbiblical.
- [31:11]
Lee Strobel
Yeah. And, you know, And I have interviews with scholars in my book who take different views on this. But, yeah, we have cases where people are told things in visions of people who had come back from the dead about things they didn't know about, like where hidden money was and things like that. So what do you do with that? I have a chapter in the book about ghosts and psychics. Those are different categories. A technical definition of a ghost is a spirit who has died but refuses to go into the afterlife. Well, I don't really see an example of that in the Bible, so I'm skeptical of that. Could these be demonic? Could these be apparitions that demons are creating to fool us? Wouldn't it just be like Satan to want someone to believe that their relative who lived an atheistic life, for instance, is communicating with them and saying, hey, everything's fine. I'm here in the afterlife, everything's great, no problem. You know, what a misleading message if that's not the case. And they're encouraging people to go down that same lifestyle path. So, you know, demons are very real and they have certain powers and certain abilities. They're limited, but they can do certain things and they can create counterfeit experiences. So we have to be very careful. I have a section in my book about how do we discern, discern what is biblical and what is not biblical, because the Bible says, test the spirits. Test the spirits, make sure they're coming from God. And when the Bible specifically talks about, for instance, don't consult psychics, don't consult mediums, and yet people do consult mediums, and they are told things that begin to influence them spiritually. You know, I have to say that's not biblical and therefore that's probably demonic. So we have to be careful about knowing what comes from God and what doesn't.
- [32:58]
Jenny Yur
And it's interesting how you say that visions and dreams are actually in the Bible quite a bit more than 200 times. And the same thing about angels. The Bible features about 300 references to angels. They are mentioned so frequently in the Bible that clearly God wants us to be aware of their presence. Angels are real, angels are alive. And though we rarely perceive their presence.
- [33:18]
Lee Strobel
They are very much here with us on earth.
- [33:20]
Jenny Yur
And a lot of people believe in them, 75%. So this book is very, very pertinent and just something to give you a lot to think about and to ponder because maybe you've not heard about it in church because, you know, there tends to not be sermons on angels or heaven. You know, a lot, a lot of these different things.
- [33:38]
Lee Strobel
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- [36:53]
Jenny Yur
You talked in this book. Well, you interviewed a bunch of people, so. Yeah, actually I was at a conference just last week that Dr. Craig Keener and Scott McKnight spoke at. So I was like, well, that's cool.
- [37:04]
Lee Strobel
Two people I interviewed for the book.
- [37:05]
Jenny Yur
Yeah, yeah, they're right in the book. And then they were at this. And then I've had John Eldridge on the show, too. I know you quote him, but one of the things you also talk about is miracles.
- [37:14]
Unknown
Yes.
- [37:15]
Jenny Yur
This is actually one that I kind of struggle with because they're so rare.
- [37:19]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [37:20]
Jenny Yur
Why are they so rare?
- [37:22]
Lee Strobel
Here's what's interesting about miracles. Again, I'm an evidence guy, so I'm not looking for cases that you hear about on the Internet. I was looking for cases published in peer reviewed medical journals. I'm looking for cases where we have medical documentation, where there's multiple eyewitnesses, where there are medical records, where there's nobody with a motive to deceive and that are consistent with what we're told in scripture. And there are surprisingly. I think one of the reasons, Jenny, that. That we think they're rare is people are reluctant to talk about them because they don't want you to think they're nuts. And yet I did a survey. I hired George Barna the big public opinion pollster, to do a scientific survey of American adults. And we asked the question, have you ever had at least one experience in your life that you can only explain as being a miracle of God? And 38% of American adults said yes, 38%. Now, now let's throw out 99% of those cases and say, okay, they thought it was a miracle. It was just a big coincidence. Let's just throw out 99%. Even if we did, that still mean there would be a million miracles just in the United States. So I'll give you one example. There was a woman whose story I tell in the book who had an incurable condition. She was blind. Blind for over a dozen years. She went to a school for the blind. She learned how to read braille. She walked with a white cane. And she married a Baptist pastor. And one night they're getting ready to go to bed, she's in bed already. He comes over to her, puts his hand on her shoulder and begins to pray and to cry. And he says, lord, I know you can heal my wife. I know you can do it. And Lord, I pray you do it tonight. And with that, she opened her eyes to perfect vision and her vision has now been intact for 47 years. This is a case that's been studied by multiple medical researchers, published in a peer reviewed medical journal as a case study. What do you do with that? What do you do? She said, I was blind when my husband prayed for me. And then I opened my eyes and I could see. She said it was a miracle. And I believe it was a miracle. Now, there are other ones. Craig Keener, who you mentioned, is. I interviewed him for my book. He's probably the world's leading expert on miracles. He's written two major books on miracles, hundreds of thousands of words, and cases he's researched. I've actually researched some cases myself that are, I think, undeniable that God intervenes supernaturally. Of course, that leaves the question, why doesn't he always heal? My wife has an incurable neuromuscular condition. She's been in pain every day for 20 years and she'll be in pain every day for the rest of her life unless God does a miracle because it's an incurable condition. But he hasn't chosen to do that. So what do you do with that? And to that I say, well, first of all, God will heal all his followers. It may come in the life to come. It may come as we transition into the next world, a world of no pain, no tears. And so forth. No suffering. But why doesn't he always heal? Well, miracles were not automatic in the New Testament either. The Bible says Jesus didn't do many miracles in Nazareth. There was a lack of faith there. Paul had a buddy named Trophimus, and Trophimus was sick. But Paul went off on a missionary journey, leaving the sick Trophimus back there. He didn't heal him. He went off on a missionary journey. In Matthew, in one chapter, Jesus gives the disciples authority to heal, and yet seven chapters later, they can't heal an epileptic boy. So, you know, healings were not automatic in the New Testament. And I was actually thinking this the other day. You know, what if God automatically and immediately answered every prayer for healing by healing someone at that moment, we would live in a world where we couldn't do science. Science is based on predictability. And there would be so many anomalous occurrences like that that we wouldn't know what to believe. So it would get very confusing. We live in a world where we can do science because there is predictability and so forth. But God does intervene periodically. And in the book, I document many of these cases that they're, frankly, just shocking, shocking.
- [41:25]
Jenny Yur
There was one about Barbara. She had multiple sclerosis.
- [41:28]
Unknown
Yes.
- [41:29]
Jenny Yur
And the doctor said, yeah, one of the most hopelessly ill patients I ever saw.
- [41:34]
Lee Strobel
That's right. Barbara and I became friends because I researched her case personally. Barbara had multiple sclerosis. She was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic. We had all those records. And she deteriorated over the coming years very quickly until she was on her deathbed. And they said, we're not going to revive her the next time she gets pneumonia because we're just prolonging the inevitable. She's going to die. So she hadn't walked in seven years, and so her muscles had atrophied. She was curled up like a pretzel in bed, waiting to die. Her fingers were touching her wrists. Her feet were extended rigidly. She had a tube in her throat so she could breathe because it was attached to oxygen canisters in the garage. She lost control of her bowels and her urination. She was virtually blind. All she could see were gray shadows, and she's waiting to die. But then somebody called up wmbi, which is the Christian radio station at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, and said, hey, there's this young girl, Barbara. She's dying. Would people please pray for her? Well, we documented that at least 480 people prayed for Barbara. How do we know? Because they wrote letters to Barbara saying, I'm praying for you. So on Pentecost Sunday, there's. She has two women in her room reading her some of these encouraging letters from people praying for her. And Barbara hears the voice of God coming from the corner of the room where there was nobody there. And the voice said, get up, my child, and walk. Well, she's shocked, so she rips out the tube so she could talk. She says, go get my parents. God just told me to get up and walk. So they run out. But Barbara couldn't stop herself. She jumped out of bed. And I said, what was that like? And she said, well, Lee, the first thing I noticed is my feet were flat on the floor, and my feet had been rigidly extended for. For years. And. And here they were normal. And then I noticed my hands had come uncurled and my hands went back to normal. And. And then she said the third thing I noticed, I could see. And I. She said, you think that'd be the first thing I noticed? But that was actually the third thing I noticed. Anyway, she was completely and totally healed. Her mother came in and fell to her knees and grabbed her calves and said, barbara, your muscle tone has returned. Well, it was Pentecost Sunday, so they went to church. It was a Wesleyan church, and they were doing a service that night, and the pastor got up and said, does anybody have any announcements? And Barbara comes walking down the center aisle. Now, nobody in the church has seen Barbara outside of a wheelchair for seven years. So they just erupted in singing Amazing Grace. I once was blind and now I see. And so she goes the next day to one of her doctors, and her doctor said, later I saw her walking toward my office, and my first thought was, oh, she died, and this is a ghost, because this is medically impossible. In fact, two doctors ended up writing about it in books that they wrote because they said they'd never seen anything like this. And she actually ended up marrying a pastor. And for years, they pastored a Wesleyan church in Fredericksburg, Virginia. So, you know, what do you do with that? What do you do with that? If you're going to. The only way I think you can get around that being a miracle is if you. Possibility of miracles at the outset and say, now bring me your evidence, because that's illegitimate. That's not the way you do research. The way you do research is you said, bring me all of the evidence. And then let me try to discern what is the most logical explanation for this evidence.
- [45:03]
Wow.
- [45:04]
Jenny Yur
Hadn't been able to walk for seven years. So she would have been totally atrophied. All of her muscles.
- [45:09]
Lee Strobel
That's right.
- [45:10]
Jenny Yur
Instant and simultaneous healing of eyesight, lungs, and so on. The doctor said, I've never witnessed anything.
- [45:18]
Lee Strobel
Like this before or since, and consider it a rare privilege to observe the.
- [45:22]
Jenny Yur
Hand of God performing a true miracle.
- [45:24]
Lee Strobel
You say God is still in the.
- [45:25]
Jenny Yur
Miracle business, and there's tons more examples on page 61. And then you do talk about how Dr. Craig Keener has all of these books about different miracles and that he.
- [45:33]
Lee Strobel
Was a spiritual skeptic as well.
- [45:36]
He was.
- [45:36]
Jenny Yur
So that's really an interesting thing to learn about. I'd love to talk as well about heaven.
- [45:42]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [45:43]
Jenny Yur
Because I feel like talking about angels. And, you know, you don't hear too many sermons about angels. And I don't really feel like you've heard too many sermons about heaven. John Eldridge said, nearly every Christian I've spoken with has some idea that eternity is an unending church service. And you kind of think about that like we grew up in Baptist with hard pews and no one claps. And, you know, it's very proper. And you do think of that. But then you talked about how Dr. Scott McKnight was talking about beauty. That, you know is his reason for believing in heaven is beauty. It's one of his reasons for. And so, logically, if you think about the world that we live in that is full of sensory experiences.
- [46:21]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [46:22]
Jenny Yur
Would it make sense that heaven is all white and only clouds and only angels and with white wings and white like that doesn't really make sense. And I had the only sermon series I ever heard about. Heaven was actually really good. And the pastor said that heaven is very similar, yet vastly superior.
- [46:43]
Lee Strobel
Yes, that's exactly right. It is a renewal of our world. It isn't a new world. It is a renewal of our world. So it's a world without sin. You know, sin has corrupted our. Not just our nature, but our world. The Bible says that creation is groaning for redemption. And when you take away the sin factor and when God remakes our world, that's what heaven is going to be. It's going to be a very place of, as you say, of beauty, of vision, of cactus. It's going to be a place where we touch things. It's a place where we have relationships and friendships and so forth. It's going to be a very real place for resurrected bodies. And so, yeah, it's not some people on clouds playing harps and singing hymns all day, but we will be in the presence of God, which is the ultimate thing for human beings to see the face of God, so to speak, to be in his presence. Charles Spurgeon, the great, great preacher from the 1800s, said that the great wonder of heaven is that we shall see him. Jesus, who died for us on Calvary. And then he said, no more than that, that he will kiss us with the kisses of his mouth and welcome us to dwell with him forever. So it's very tactile place, a place of love and a place of joy. There'll be banquets, there'll be great food and wonder and so forth. And. And you know, God is infinite. So we will have an infinite amount of time to explore God and to learn and to grow and so forth. So it. And in fact, when people in pre death visions and in near death experiences get a glimpse of heaven, often they come back and say, I can't describe it because there were literally colors that we can't see. How do you describe a color that we can't see? There are colors. Is so beautiful.
- [48:43]
Jenny Yur
Yeah. They're not saying it was only clouds and it was all white.
- [48:46]
Lee Strobel
Yeah, right, right.
- [48:48]
Jenny Yur
Yeah. And I think that's an important piece too, that all kind of weaves together.
- [48:52]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [48:52]
Jenny Yur
You go back to those near death experiences or the, the dead. Dead experiences.
- [48:57]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [48:57]
Jenny Yur
And people are not saying there was lots of harps.
- [49:01]
Lee Strobel
Yeah.
- [49:02]
Jenny Yur
No one's saying that.
- [49:03]
Lee Strobel
Nobody harp that I. In the cases I've researched.
- [49:06]
Jenny Yur
Right. And why would there be a God that creates mountains and waterfalls and, and rivers and then have none of that be in heaven and have it only be clouds? So that's a really important thing to think about and I think to talk to your kids about. You wrote, I believe in heaven because I believe God wants to make all things right. And you did have a really personal story in this book, Seeing the Supernatural, about you and your dad.
- [49:26]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [49:27]
Jenny Yur
And you said that he, you had a rocky relationship and you wrote, he told me at the height of an argument on the eve of my high school graduation, which it has to be really rocky for it to be this. You're about to graduate. This is like, this is it. This is like a culmination. It's such an important. Like, as a parent, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm sending my kid off into the world and I'm proud of them. And this is a monumental night, the eve of my high school graduation. He says, I don't have enough love for you to fill my little finger. And we never really reconciled after that. Instead we swept it under the Rug.
- [50:03]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [50:03]
Jenny Yur
And so you were talking with someone, Scott McKay, maybe? Scott.
- [50:07]
Lee Strobel
Yeah, Scott.
- [50:07]
Unknown
Yep, yep.
- [50:08]
Lee Strobel
And he said, he said, there's his view, and this makes sense, that the first hour in heaven will be a time of reconciliation. In other words, you know, when we die as Christians, we're not perfect and we're going to have rifts, we're going to have disagreements with some other Christians who are going to spend eternity with them. And my father and I, my father was a Christian and I'm a Christian now, and we're going to spend eternity together in some kind of relationship in heaven forever. And so Scott McKnight said, in his view, there's got to be a moment, whether it's a moment or an hour, whatever, that when we get to heaven, we'll have a period of reconciliation with those with whom we have disagreements or rifts or whatever, and we'll all be motivated to reconcile. We'll all want to be reconciled. We'll have no pretenses. We'll not try to justify our actions. And my father, he said, lee, your dad, he wants to reconcile right now. And he is sorry about his side of the relationship. And as I am sorry about my side in what led to a rocky relationship. I was a difficult child. I got to own that. And so when we get to heaven, there's going to be that moment, and I'm going to be motivated to reconcile with my dad. He's going to be motivated to reconcile with me, we are going to hug, and then we're going to have the opportunity to be in a perfect father son relationship for eternity. The kind of relationship we both wish we had had in this world.
- [51:37]
Jenny Yur
Yeah, that part was really comforting because you wrote in this conversation you're having with Scott McKnight, he said, I do think that your father is already more conscious of these things than you are, and that he has the perfect desire to reconcile. I'm guessing he has already repented of his side in the conflict. And one day your relationship will be healed. It will be a beautiful moment for the both of you. So this book just, it gives a lot of hope. There's a lot of things to think about. It helps you remember that we all have an end a day of our life here on Earth. And so it gives you perspective about that which is really biblical.
- [52:11]
Lee Strobel
Teach us to number our days so.
- [52:13]
Jenny Yur
That we can have a heart of wisdom. You said at the very beginning that when you researched this book, which I like still, I'm like, this is such an interesting path to go down. The supernatural. It changed the way you prayed.
- [52:24]
Lee Strobel
Yeah, it did. Because, you know, I never heard. To this day, I've never heard a sermon on the topic of angels. For whatever reason, Christians don't like to talk about angels and demons very much. But I did all this research on angels. I have a chapter on angels, and I learned a lot as I did that research and interviewed these scholars on that topic. So one of the things that I walked away with with is one of the key roles of angels is to protect us, to protect people. And you know, Jesus, when he was being arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, said, could I not call upon my father right now? And he would send legions of angels to protect me. Yeah, he would. So there are a lot of Christians who believe that we have a guardian angel, that God assigns us an angel or more to protect us. There are two passages in scripture that suggest that that one is when Jesus is talking about some little children. He said, don't despise these little ones because their angels see the face of God every day in heaven. Their angels, who are their angels other than guardian angels? And then Peter, when he escaped from prison in the Book of Acts, goes to a house where some Christians had gathered, and he knocks on the door and the servant said, who's there? And he says, peter. And she calls out to the others, hey, Peter's here. Didn't believe him because believe the servant, because Peter was in jail. So they said, well, well, that can't be right. He's in jail. That must be his angel. So many Christians believe, based on those two passages that we have an angel who's assigned us a guardian angel. And in fact, in the Greek Orthodox tradition of Christianity, they believe that at the time of Baptism, every believer is assigned an angel to be their guardian. Well, I never really thought about this very much. And, and I go and I read Martin Luther. And Martin Luther has a prayer in his small catechism where he prays and says, God, send your holy angels to protect me from the evil one. And so I've started to pray. We don't pray to angels, but we can pray about angels. I've started to pray to God about angels. Say, lord, send your angels to protect me, to protect my children, my grandchildren, my in laws, to protect my ministry. Ministry send angels to protect me. And it's totally legitimate and something I never used to do. But, you know, it's interesting that the Bible actually foreshadows the fact that we will have interactions with angels in this world, because in the Book of Hebrews, it says that sometimes when you provide hospitality, you're providing hospitality to an angel even though you don't realize it. Well, that's suggesting that we might have interactions with angels. And I tell the story in my book, it actually comes from Billy Graham about a Scottish missionary in the South Pacific who is sharing the gospel with his wife among these tribes people and living in a little cottage. And the tribes people didn't like the gospel and they decided to come burn down the cottage and kill them. So a mob is forming around their cottage and this missionary and his wife are praying, God help us, protect us, help. We don't know what to do here. There's nothing, nothing we can do. They've come after us. And then by dawn, the mob of people dissipated and went away. Well, a year later, the missionary led the head of that tribe to faith in Jesus Christ. And he's talking to him one day and he says, hey, do you remember that day when you all came to kill us and burn down our house? Why didn't you do it? And the guy said, well, who were all those men that you had there? And the missionaries said, well, there are no men there, it's just my wife and I. And I said, no, no, no. There was a whole group of these muscular men, all dressed in white, surrounding your cottage with drawn swords. There's no way we could have attacked you that night. Well, I think that's a sign of an interaction with angelic beings. So God does protect us and sometimes he chooses to use these angels he has created. And so I've started, as I say, to pray God, God send your angels to protect me. And I think that, you know what, I feel better about that now.
- [56:30]
Jenny Yur
Yes, yes. And the story that you gave about Pastor John Boston, where he's in this car accident and, you know, it's like all the electricity would be going through and like, you know, and. And it says, suddenly a scruffy looking man came out of nowhere, easily opened the crushed door and walked him 20 yards from the car just before it explodes into flames. He said, my name is Johnny. And you wrote this, presumably? All angels have names. Their number is fixed, but the number is incred large. The police are almost here. My name is Johnny. The police are almost here and I can't be here when they get here, but you're going to be okay. And then the man was gone.
- [57:05]
Lee Strobel
Yeah.
- [57:06]
Jenny Yur
What a book. What a book. It's just chills all the way through and it just, it gave me a lot of peace. I Think that's, that's what it's supposed to do.
- [57:14]
Unknown
So.
- [57:14]
Jenny Yur
Lee Strobel, I mean, what an honor. New York Times best selling author. Really influential in my own personal faith journey and in our families, for our kids as well. The book is called Seeing the Supernatural. It's out now and available wherever you get your books invest. Investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near death encounters, and other mysteries of the unseen world. I think if you read it, it's going to bring you peace like it did for me. And it's going to give you a lot of things to think about. And if you're a parent, you know, to talk to your kids about, to talk to your grandkids about, just absolutely wonderful. What an honor. I can't wait to tell my parents.
- [57:45]
Lee Strobel
You're great. I really enjoyed our time together. Thank you so much.
- [57:50]
Jenny Yur
Yes, it's been wonderful. We've got one last question because we always end with it.
- [57:53]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [57:54]
Jenny Yur
What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [57:56]
Lee Strobel
Favorite memory outside my childhood. Wow. You know, for me, it was playing with my friends out. We had a little park right next to our house and we used to play on that park. Of course, back then it was like, you don't have to come home until the street lights come on. And so, you know, your parents would just let you run around the neighborhood and we would, we had like half a dozen guys and we would play baseball on the, on the park and we'd play tag and we'd climb trees and we'd interact with nature and it was just, it was just joyful. And then when the street lights would come on. Oh, gotta go home. Gotta go back home.
- [58:34]
Jenny Yur
Look at this. I want to show you something. Yeah, Let me see if I can reach it. Okay. Here we go. This is the name of my book.
- [58:42]
Lee Strobel
Until the Streetlights Come On.
- [58:44]
Oh, that's so awesome. I love that.
- [58:47]
Jenny Yur
It's about how that return to play is. It's so good for today, but it.
- [58:50]
Lee Strobel
Also prepares kids for an uncertain future.
- [58:52]
Absolutely. That is so cool. I love that. I gotta get that. That's awesome. Yeah.
- [58:58]
Jenny Yur
That freedom. And that freedom, it does so much for kids and it helps them to learn how to trust themselves and how to build relationships and how to have a joy. How to have a joy in life. So this has been truly such an honor. I've been looking forward to it for so long. Thank you so much for being here.
- [59:14]
Lee Strobel
My pleasure. God bless you.
- [59:18]
Unknown
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