← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 500: Childhood Starts Ending the Day the Smartphone Arrives | Kim John Payne, Simplicity Parenting
01:04:25
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- [00:01]
Jenny Urch
Well, hello there, Jenny. Here. I cannot believe I get to say this, but we have officially reached 500 episodes of the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. That is wild. I am the world's most regular mom for Michigan. This entire movement began as an outgrowth of my failures and early struggles as a young mother. And I hope that gives you hope for tomorrow, for next week, for. For the long days you might be in right now. Because you never know what's ahead. Even if today feels like a total pit. The success of this podcast, which is currently the number two parenting podcast in the entire United States, and the reach of the 1000 hours outside movement tells me something powerful. Families are hungry for a different kind of conversation. They're hungry for slower, for simpler, for meaningful, for a childhood that isn't rushed or wrapped. They're tired of competing with a virtual world, and they're searching for depth, for presence, for something real. And it turns out there are so many of us. So for this very special 500th episode, I'm joined by the guest I wanted more than anyone, Kim John Payne, the author of Simplicity Parenting and many other phenomenal books. Simplicity Parenting was an original book that helped shape how we parent and how we live as a family. Kim first came on the podcast all the way back at episode 36. Since then, we've shared hundreds of hours of conversations on this podcast, millions of downloads and listeners from all over the globe. This particular episode represents the heartbeat of what we believe and what we're aiming for. Before we dive in, can I ask one thing? If this podcast has ever made you laugh or cry or breathe a little deeper, would you please leave a review for the podcast or for my books? Every review helps spread this message further and reach other families. And speaking of books, if you haven't grabbed your copy of Homeschooling, you're doing it right. Just by doing it, or until the streetlights come on, I'd be honored if you pick up a copy today. All right, episode 500. Let's do this. Let's rescue childhood and maybe in the process, rescue ourselves. Right back here is my conversation with Kim Jong Payne. Get into your body's vitals with the Vitals app on Apple Watch. The Vitals app tracks key overnight metrics so you can spot changes in your health before you feel them. The Vitals app ON Apple Watch iPhone XS are later required. The Vitals app is for wellness purposes only and not for medical use.
- [02:46]
Kim John Payne
Yeah.
- [02:55]
Jenny Urch
Are you ready?
- [02:56]
Kim John Payne
Ready, set, go.
- [02:58]
Jenny Urch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. I wasn't expecting. I feel kind of emotional. This is our 500th episode, and the person that I wanted to do at the very, very most said, yes. Kim Jong Payne is back. Welcome.
- [03:16]
Kim John Payne
Hooray for us, Jenny. Hooray for you. Particularly for us.
- [03:21]
Jenny Urch
I tell you what, you really kicked this off for me all the way Back to episode 36. And we have had so many, to me, I guess, life changing, I would say life changing conversations. We've talked about all of your books. I've talked with Luis Fernando Yosa, who co wrote Beyond Winning with you. And then we've also talked about the book about bullying, emotionally resilient teens, and tweens, which is one of the best books that's out there. They're all referenced on my shelf. Like, I go and grab them. We've talked about how to be your best when your kids are at your worst. And we've talked about the soul of discipline. And we started off with Simplicity Parenting, which was an interesting situation for me because I read this book long before I had a podcast. I actually have, like, the original cover. The COVID has changed since it's been. It's been reprinted. Mine has peanut butter on the front. I mean, it's dirty. I read it when I had really young kids, and when we talked about it, Kim, I just went back through the notes that I had taken from having, you know, kids six and under. And when I was going to prepare for this as the 500th episode, I went back through with a different lens. It's been a decade, and I read the parts that I didn't highlight when I had kids 6 and under, and I thought I could probably highlight this entire book. There are very few books that I would say, every parent should read it, and this is one, because what you do, and you have this sort of theme in all of your books where you cast a vision or you help the parent cast a vision. Like in this one, you help the reader say, what were you dreaming about before you had kids? Parenting is about being in the thick of it, and when you have kids, you just don't have time to dream. But you might be really far from what you originally thought. You might have strayed quite a bit, and you might need some fresh infusions of hope and imagination. So the Simplicity Parenting book is like, imagine. Imagine this. You help the reader cast a vision, and then you always focus on how important it is. Like, you wrote, it's our responsibility as gatekeepers to know what's going on. It's becoming exponentially more difficult even as it becomes more critical. So you, you know, you say this is important, but then you also always have a tone of you can do it. Like you talked about how you can reset in just a couple days, a slow weekend. It could really reset a lot of things. I mean, how can you have a book where you're like, yes, that, that. I mean, my notes got so long, it's like, it's an incredible, incredible book. And here it is, I mean, a decade plus after you wrote it. And it's more practical now, I think, than it was then.
- [05:50]
Kim John Payne
Yeah. And I got a chance to do a second edition actually at its like we're on our 500th birthday. That's quite a regal age. But at the simplicity parenting book's 10th anniversary, the publishers very kindly invited me to do a second edition. And so I got to rework the whole book. And that was just thrilling because often you have a big project, particularly books, and it's kind of cast in stone. There it is. And then things move on. Like when I talk about filtering out the adult world in the book, in the, in the edition you have, which is the first edition, I'm still talking about blackberries, do you know what I mean? So I had some catching up to do. And so the second edition, I guess that's been out about three or four years now, so I've been told. It's an unusual book in the fact that unlike a lot of other parody books, it doesn't tell you to do anything. It doesn't tell you to do anything at all. It actually suggests that we do less, not more.
- [07:07]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, like all of the books, they just inspire you. They inspire you to like have a different vision and to think about what you really want and how you could get there. And this, the subtitle of this one, it's so interesting. So I read it when our kids were really small and then now we've got kids that are almost adults and to have that different perspective. And like, I think every time you go to a baby shower, like, this is the book that you should give. Using the extraordinary power of last to raise calmer, happier and more secure kids. And I thought, goodness, a book that's 15 years old. And I had to really limit my notes because I was like this and this and it's so pertinent. I would love to start here. We didn't talk about this last time. I thought this was actually really funny. So you are, you deal with all these families. And you have been for a really long time. You have this history of working with kids that were in war zones and seeing how jumpy and hyper vigilant they were and then also then seeing these kids that are having these cumulative stress of the modern day overwhelm and how they are also jumpy and hyper vigilant and these things that are very similar. And so you start to help all of these families and you, you have these offerings. You say, well, look, you can come in, you know, with your family, we'll talk in these sessions for three months, or I can come to your house for one day and observe. I'll just be in the margins just going to observe. And you said, so like this is one day versus months and months. And you said, these parents are like, no, we'll just choose the month's option. So first of all, I love the idea and want to know where the idea came from. I think that's brilliant.
- [08:45]
Kim John Payne
Well, the idea wasn't my original one because after I was working in Southeast Asia in various refugee camps and war zones and very difficult places, I decided to. I was looking for a training where I could study what is now known as trauma studies. Right. Back then in the mid-80s, there was no such thing. So I was kind of putting together a course of study for myself post grad kind of putting it together. And I happened to come across Waldorf kindergarten. And in Waldorf kindergartens they do home visits. And so I started as. Amongst all the different pieces I was putting together, I started to train as a Waldorf kindergarten teacher. And not that I've ever been one, but I trained as one. And they have home visits as a really big part of what they do. And I thought, well, that makes a lot of sense. And so that's where I got the idea.
- [09:47]
Jenny Urch
I had no idea would they do it while the kid was in kindergarten or before they're coming into the school system?
- [09:54]
Kim John Payne
Yeah, In Waldorf kindergartens, the kindergarten teacher will often visit either before the child starts as a getting to know you. And so rather than having a little one walk into the kindergarten and feel like, who is this person? And everything is so new. The teacher goes to the home. It's like Muhammad coming to the mountain, or mountain to Muhammad anyways, a Muhammad and a mountain involved somewhere here. So the teacher will go to the family and into the child's environment first. And so it doesn't always happen like this. There's various ways to do it so that when the child starts on their first day in Kindergarten. It's like, I know that person. I showed them my favorite stuffy in my bedroom. There's such wisdom in it, right? And then during the course of their early childhood years in the school, the teacher also makes another visit just to check in and have the child show them around and they have tea with the. And it's again, this sort of, I am coming into your environment. And also a teacher coming into. Or in my case, a counselor coming into a home environment. Even though everyone's kind of a little bit on their best behavior, when you've been doing it for a wee while, you see obviously beyond that into the little habit, because habits are habits, you know, and children will have their habits and the things they do that are super helpful, that are kind of super not helpful, they'll still do it. And. And so, yeah, I started doing that. But I think in the book I mentioned, I got this really unfortunate nickname, Dr. Trash Bag. Because one of the things we. That became very, very early on is the benefit of children living with a sense of space and organization around them. Because out there in the world for little ones, there's a lot coming at them, and increasingly, it doesn't feel very organized. Things are chopping and changing and moving around, and we can't, as parents, we can't control out there very much at all, but we can control in here. In our homes, you can only control your controllables and controlling. In here, in our home, we can do that. So decluttering and organizing. Not just decluttering, but organizing. So there's certain tubs for certain things, certain baskets, certain shelves, and that's where that goes, and that's where this goes. So having less and having the less be organized. Children just adore it to have that. One of the things we've learned over the years, Jenny and I, I've got to thank our coaches. Before we began recording, I was mentioning to you, we have, like, about 1500 simplicity parenting group leaders and coaches and care professionals around the world. It's a quiet little sort of grassroots movement. One of the things that they taught me was that you begin when you declutter and organize. You begin with your space, like the adult space, the bedroom, the kitchen, whatever. You begin with your space. And. And I don't think this is in the book. I learned this after that. And then declutter common spaces like kitchens and lounge rooms. And that'll take two or three days or more and let that sit for a while. And then very often the children say, when is my room going to Be made all nice so it doesn't feel like you're invading and taking stuff away. And then the child's room comes third. And the toys don't have to disappear and all the books and all the clothes, but you establish a little library, a little circulation. Some toys in, some toys out, you know, 10, 15 toys, maybe 20 at most. And the keepers you put in boxes and you trade Z in and tradesy out. And books you try what basically what is rare is precious. And having everything out at all times makes it of little value. But if it goes away and then comes out, then it's precious and it will be played with. Yeah.
- [14:21]
Jenny Urch
Dr. Trash bag. Mr.
- [14:24]
Kim John Payne
I had these trash bags, right, that we would be putting stuff in, you know. Oh, my goodness.
- [14:29]
Jenny Urch
I just love that you. Although it amuses me, it doesn't surprise me how often families will choose months, months of sessions over the one day into the home. The Waldorf piece is interesting. My midwife is. I bought my book from. My midwife had this small store for a while in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and her boys for a bit went to the Waldorf school there. And she sold yearbook in her store. And she actually had seen you live. You came and spoke at their school. I was like, I'm so jealous of that. But she says now her boys are grown, they're in their 20s. And she says that she almost on a weekly basis, will listen to your podcast episodes. She says, I'm not even parenting. But the calm, like the voice and the soothing, she's like, it just does something for my soul. And she had told me, and I don't know if this is still the case, but the Waldorf School at that time had a policy where the kids were not allowed to watch television. I think, like Sunday night to Thursday night or something like that. And I thought it was an interesting reach into the home to sort of affect the whole being of the child. And I thought, that's a really good idea. You know, I remember watching TV as kids, but really we weren't allowed to watch the shows. So then you go to school the next day and everybody's talking about it, and you didn't get to watch it. And so you feel left out. And I thought, gosh, that permeation into the home in a good way, I think, can parents need help? That's like a basic thing. Like we don't really know what we're doing. And so to have the infusion of calm that's coming from the school or someone that comes in your home for a Day and says, you know, I noticed this or I noticed that this book is really a lot about imagination. And reading it now that with kids that are almost adults, I really related to that part. Now, I hadn't underlined it when our kids were, you know, six or seven and under, but now that they're older, I thought, oh, this misalignment between what we imagine and what we dream in our families has become enormous. Can you talk about the imagination piece? Each chapter ends with imagine this. Imagine the family dinner. Imagine. And helping the family catch their own vision or remember what their dreams were is something that's really not in other books.
- [16:43]
Kim John Payne
When a child is born and we hold them in our arms and we. We just look at them and, you know, we think like in many, many ways of saying it, but one way is, may I please be worthy. May I be worthy of this tiny little body that I'm holding in my arms hours after it's born. Minutes. And in those first weeks, so many hopes come up, you know, so many. May this child follow their own North Star. May I give them the values they need to make decisions that are theirs. And may we just have a home full of caring for each other and love and laughter and may this. Maybe it's a second child. May they be besties. I so hope she's bestie with her brother. Please, let's try to do that in may. You know, and they just kind of float. Float through our mind. You know, I don't think we sit down and write them down. Some people might be journal sort of people who journal, but they float through our mind. And they do that because it's really. It's really our. Our heart intelligence that's. That's speaking in the language of hopes. Heart intelligence often speaks in the language of hope. And it's powerful. It's really powerful. If we listen to it. And then they grow up and, you know, like. And then, you know, it all starts up and it' to. To just to revisit a hope. It isn't a scary thing. I don't think. Even if. Even if life has gone a little bit away from that, because what it does is, is that it in a sense is a little bit. Just a little bit transcendent. It like in a neurological sense, it brings us out of our coping brain, you know, out of the. The brain stem, and it brings us out of our left brain, which is just linear. Get it done. Get this done. Get them up for breakfast, get the lunch boxes, get that in the backpack, get them onto the bus get them. That's all left brain, that's all. And a lot of parenting, when it comes just from a left brain, it comes out a left field, gets a bit far away from our hopes because hopes are right brain. And so when we allow our hopes, even if they're still unrequited little bit, you know, even if they're still in the process of becoming, what it does for us is it balances us on a, just on a straight up brain based level. It's like, it brings up empathy, caring, love, soothing. It brings up non reactivity. It brings, you know, our kids melting down. And we, we talked before Jeannie. But you know, I don't believe in disobedient kids. I've never met one in my life. I've never met a disobedient kid. And as a school counselor, I've met some right little rotters, I can tell you, like, oh my goodness. But I believe in disorientation, I really do. And I'm not trying to be nice in saying that at all. They're disoriented. And the more we connect with our hopes and dreams for kids and one of the best ways to do it is to look at them when they're sleeping. You know, you just poke your head around the door. Like in my counseling practice, because I still meet with many, many, many parents, you know, through the month, I'll often poke your head around the door and look at them when they're sleeping because they're so beautiful. They just gaze at them and just rekindle that kind of softness from all the, get the lunch in the backpack, get to the car, get to the, all that left brain stuff, that linear stuff. And then when we gaze at our children, they don't know. They might be just playing with their Magna tiles or if they're little or they might be out shooting some hoops. They're teenagers and we just stand back from the window a little bit so they don't see us looking at them. Because that would be like weird, like, mom, what are you doing? Just stand back and just look at them and think, oh my goodness, they have size 13 shoes. How did that happen? You know, and they're kind of smelly, but I kind of love them. But the sleep is one of the best ones and we balance ourselves. And so that's why I often talk about imagination, because it lifts us into our limbic system out of that brain base and it lifts us into that right brain. That's another way of looking at it. And, and I think it's really important to pause and do that on occasion. Actually daily, if at all possible. Yeah.
- [21:24]
Jenny Urch
When the book really guides you to do that. And it's interesting to have a book about parenting that works for a 6 year old that also works for a 16 year old with those reminders to imagine. I want to read this. You imagined, and this is just a portion of it. A life together with meals shared, games played, school days and chores, sorrows mended, stories told, little triumphs and celebrations, tying shoes, sharing laughs, pink construction paper, Valentine's ball games. In the almost darkness of dusk, you pictured a refuge. You dreamed of the comfort of family where each member could be their authentic self, well known and well loved. And so you pick this book up, Simplicity, Parenting, and you go back to it because at the end of each chapter you have these visions for imagining, imagining if it could be this way. As the temps start rising, I feel that familiar urge to refresh my closet. But I'm not wasting money on pieces I'll only wear once or for just one season. 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And you had talked about how you know this too much has now become normal and kids are really struggling and parents are struggling. And there was this section of the book where it talked about the one minute bedtime stories, which I just thought was like so perfect. And you talked about Stephen Biddulph, which I've had him on our show. He had this book came out recently called Wild Creature Mind, which is a fantastic book. And he was talking about how there actually is a threshold for how much you work as a parent and how, how well your kids are functioning. And I thought that's a really big deal because you could be working constantly and you can take your work with you anywhere. And it said if they spend more than 10 hours a day at work, including travel, their child will suffer. 15 hours a day almost guarantees damage. So the timepiece, carving time, making time. It's so hard to slow down. What advice do you have for parents about the. Because we can't focus on all of them. So we talked a little bit about toys. It's a lot of different areas, but the, the timepiece is a really big one. In this day and age, there's so many things that we can fill our time with.
- [27:00]
Kim John Payne
Well, there's a, there's a couple of, of things. One is, is to understand for kids, time is not linear. Like if we remember back to our golden moments, like Ginny, if you remember your, your golden moments right as a child and I remember mine, if we live into that now, it's often not associated strictly speaking with time. It's associated with connection. Whatever brings connection. Like I empathize with in a two parent home, two parents working real hard, just trying to provide and trying to pay the mortgage or the rent or whatever it is. I completely get it. I don't come from a rich posh family. You know, my parents worked really, really hard. So it's got to like an example is I remember being with my dad in the front of his pickup truck. He was an engineer. And I would always say to him daddy, tell me another. I remember when story and he would, he, he would look out and his gaze would get a little bit softer and he'd be driving along and he'd say well I remember when your grandfather do you know he. And, and he would tell me or I remember when you were just a little, little boy and you used to have that little tricycle and you would pedal it full of two whole bricks to me while I laid that. The bricks for our house which I'm not making this up, Jenny. This is true. And I would say thank you and you would say you're welcome. And then I'd go back and get two more bricks and I just pedal my tricycle backwards and forwards, delivering bricks to my dad to build our house. And I figured that I was a big important part of building that house, you know, delivering the little bricks. And he would tell me that I remember when story. I remember when. Now the I remember whens. Can this be done with a little one or a teenager? Doesn't matter. When they're like a big, like a big size 13, like I was saying, teenager. And they sit up at the counter and you're making supper and you'll say, you know what? I remember when that hoop used to seem like it was on top of a mountain. And you're getting really close to being able to slam because he's trying, she's trying, trying. And now when you do a layup, your hand is just a foot away from the basket. I remember when that basket was like a mountaintop. Do you remember you told me hoopers on the top of a hill, Mummy. And I'm not making that one up either. My daughter told me that. And it's a little I remember when or I remember when that little sparrow hawk came right down onto the handle of your stroller and just sat there and looked at you all these. I remember wins the power of that. There's been research done into this and there was a. I don't know. Do you know the podcast Hidden Brain, Ginny? Have you ever come across a hidden brain? There was a podcast in Hidden Brain which picked up some research which was reported in the New York Times actually about the power of family story and how it helps kids feel they have foundations under their feet. And it tracked them through the kids who had had a lot of family story, a lot of family foundations established. And it tracked their mental health, actually. And their mental health is significantly strong. It's noticeably strong when compared to others. So that's just one way. I'm not suggesting the only way, but that's just one way. And it's kind of what concerns me about kids on screens, because kids I'm not. I think it's important not to be anti too much in life and I don't want to be anti screen. What I am is passionately pro connection. Connection to. And I write about this in the book actually Connection. I think of it as four content centric circles like connection to. To nature and not nature videos Nature connection to friends and play. Real play. Not friending and discord and gaming. Real connection to family. Not watching family sitcoms where the adults are portrayed as stupid but loving in a loving family. And then finally at the core of it all, connection to self and one's own value. Not toxic pop culture with influences leading us away from what we want our child to really go towards. As I was mentioning, their own North Star and not the magnetic north of what influences tell us us we must have to be cool. So connection to nature, friends, play, family, self. Now that all takes time. And the average kid in the United States, way back in 2011, the Kaiser Family foundation did a study. The average US kid was watching seven and a half hours of screens a day per day. And that's excluding screen exposure in school. The Common Sense Media foundation did a follow up study and now estimate it to be about nine and a quarter hours a day. And that doesn't include multi screening where kids are watching one or more screens. So in other words, you know, if your kid's awake, they're on a screen. Now if we're doing less, if they, if our kids see, if they're doing just a couple of hours, that's already a win. That's already a win right there. But even those couple of hours, I'm jealous of those hours. I'm guarded with those hours. And for my kids, I want to be playing catch with them. I want to be building forts with them or I want them to be building forts. There's that piece that it's not anti screen but it's pro connection to themselves. And the other thing that I, I'm concerned about in, in our, my little podcast there was a lot of interest. I was a bit, to be honest with you, I was a bit nervous about using this term micro abandonment because it's a bit provocative and I don't mean to be provocative. We parents just get poked enough as it is. But every time we look at our cell phone when we're with our child is a micro abandonment. And it's like a death of relationship and connection by a thousand paper cut micro abandonments of looking at our screen. Every time we look at our screen we are saying our screen is more important than you. Our screen is supreme and it's abandonment, these little tiny abandonments. So if we can resist that, turn off all the notifications, just resist looking at our screen and truly be with our child when we're with them. That's already a huge win. And you can't measure that in minute by minute time. It's just presence. And that's, that's more what I'm valuing more and more as I Get older.
- [34:22]
Jenny Urch
Well, because it's like, how can you have the I remember wins. How can you have them if you're, if you're distracted or if your child is just on a screen, there's nothing to remember. You talk so much in the book about play and boredom and that's also gone by the wayside if kids are on screens for that many hours. You wrote, you know, think of boredom as a gift. Let your kids be bored. Let them be. And that parents struggle how to know, how to slow down. You had this sentence that's always been one of my favorites. Well, it's actually two parts, two pieces. You talk about the multiplicity of outcomes in play. Just that little phrase, the multiplicity of outcomes that, that is teaching kids flexibility because there's no guaranteed outcome. And I thought, well, gosh, is that really pertinent for today's world? We're like in a world where there's a multiplicity of outcomes. It used to be a little bit more streamlined, I think. Right. Like my brother is a teacher and he knows exactly when he's going to retire and what will his pension be. And but like I walked away from that world. I would be retiring in two years anyway. I walked away. And now I'm kind of like, oh dar, shoot. I don't know if that was the right decision. But you know, like some people have a pretty streamlined, but a lot of people like myself, it's a multiplicity of outcomes. So that piece about play and also the part where you say self directed play, I don't know why that's happening. Do you see balloons going on my screen? I don't know why that happened. It's because I'm excited. Okay. So I want to talk about the flexibility, the multiplicity of outcomes and also self directed play. This is only, you know, six or seven words. Builds multiple and emotional intelligences. I mean there's so much packed into that. Six or seven words.
- [36:09]
Kim John Payne
Well, Ginny, I'm so glad you walked away from that world because here we are at your 500th episode. Right.
- [36:17]
Jenny Urch
It's really tremendous and also kind of wild because I don't know, I don't have the pension but, but, but I feel like the play, it helps you build an inner flexibility and that's kind of what people need today.
- [36:32]
Kim John Payne
Well, you know, just to look at just a, a little bit of a data piece in this. In 2015, we tipped over into over 50% of employment was Ginny, as you just men mentioned, was self employment project based private practice. 50% that was in 2015. In 2023, I looked at the Trade department's data again, and now it's edging up towards 70% is unbenefited. Right? No retirement. No. Cindy, you know this. As someone who stepped out of the employed secure world into the freelance world world, if I was to ask you, if I may, what words would you use to describe what it takes to be happy and successful in self employment? What are the first handful of words that come to you, if I may ask you?
- [37:34]
Jenny Urch
So the first two would be grit, you can't quit, and flexibility.
- [37:40]
Kim John Payne
Okay, grit. I think that would probably be that. My first one as well. I haven't been employed for like over 30 years and I was a school counselor teacher, so I came from like, I knew that word too, but grit, Flexibility. Flexibility in. In terms of having an idea and being able to shift it if it's not working. Because that's a little bit like grit, isn't it? Maybe I would add to that the ability to work with others.
- [38:08]
Jenny Urch
Yep. Optimism.
- [38:10]
Kim John Payne
Yeah, optimism and self motivation. Right. Because no one gets you out of bed in the morning. It's like, motivate yourself. Problem solving. Now, like, we could go on. But every single. Think of that. Every single one of those words you and I just both used, you learn in play. Now, to join the dots, if your child's 10 years old and they're going to enter into the workforce from this, when this podcast goes out, it's probably going to be tipping over 80% of employment is not benefited. So they're going into that world. So we need to give them time to develop that skill that will be successful in that world. Now, some people say to me, oh, Kim, that's, you know, like, oh, giving kids time to play and letting them be bored. Because being bored is the precursor to creativity that precedes creativity. Like, if my kids came to me when they were little and said, dad, there's nothing to do, I would always answer, oh, dear, that. That's it. You know, it's. That's it. And. And if it had a stretch, I would say something to do is just around the corner. Now, my oldest daughter is a kindergarten teacher now, and she says that to her own little ones. And she said, daddy, I actually believed you when you used to say that. And we'd go looking around corners and we always found something. Right. Just let them. Don't fill up. Because if we fill up the world with play dates and sports clubs and extracurricular activities and all this stuff, then what happens is that that is all external structure. It's built already now. That's a world that disappeared back in the sort of 60s, 70s, 80s and rapidly disappearing now even more, it's picking up pace. So giving children, Isn't it ironic that giving children time to play is not an anachronism? It's not going back to Little House on the Prairie. It's actually building the skills of creativity, grit, determination, problem solving, people skills. When they've got to work stuff out. When the fort doesn't work and this roof falls in and they have to stand back and figure out how to build it. Well, that's a little construction worker right there who is going to own a construction business business. Who knows what they will do, but they're figuring it out. And that that is the future kids who are full of what? One Chinese mother called to me, called and said to me, rushy, rushy. She said, kim, when rushy rushi come in peace, go out. I've never forgotten it. Rushy, rushy. But when we have a rushy, rushy life, we think we're going into a parental arms race where we've got to do more, more, more, more. But actually that's disadvantaging our children because the world is now full where they have to construct it, not have it constructed for them. And part of the reason, I think this funny little simplicity parenting book, because honestly, the copy that you've got, Ginny, it's really ugly, the COVID is not real pretty, the print is too small, the paper is nasty. But this book is sold in the hundreds and hundreds of thousands in the millions now. And I'm not saying that to be vain. I'm saying that because we know it. As a parent who wants to simplify and knows the power of less, we are not this weird tiny minority anymore. That in a sense was leading on from your question about boredom is that boredom allows kids to be creative and self motivated. It's why, you know, Steve Jobs, for example, didn't have screens for his own kids. And when he and his wife were asked why, they said, why would we want our kids to watch someone else's creativity? This is Steve Jobs, right? Didn't have screens for his kid. He wanted his kids to be self motivated in intrinsic internal loci rather than being led from the outside, which is not their creativity, because that's not the world that they're going into too.
- [42:50]
Jenny Urch
I remember as a kid working really hard to save my money, my parents instilled that I should save half of any money I received as a gift or made when I started working as a teenager. It was so ingrained in me that when I hit adulthood, it just carried over. That's why I'm so glad Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns Early. Acorns early is a smart money app and debit card for kids that helps them learn the value of money. What's really cool is it has a chores track quicker that helps kids learn the value of a dollar. Just set up chores in the app, set a payment amount and tick the chore off when it's done. Acorns early lets parents pay allowances automatically if you'd like, no more rummaging around for cash. Kids can spend what they earn with their very own debit card. They'll love the new sense of independence and getting to choose from 35 plus customizable card designs. I really love that Acorns early helps kids turn saving into a habit. Head to acornserly.com outside or download the Acorns early app to help your kids grow their money skills today. That's acornserly.com outside Acorns early card is issued by Community Federal Savings Bank Member FDIC pursuant to license by MasterCard International. Monthly subscription fee starting from $5 per month unless canceled. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you.
- [44:04]
Kim John Payne
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- [44:14]
Jenny Urch
Delivery, prime makes it easy to get.
- [44:16]
Kim John Payne
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- [44:57]
Jenny Urch
I think like I said, I think you could. I mean a person reading this book could underline the entire thing. The print is really small. That's so funny. I would not have had anything to negative to say about the book because it's so transformative. But when you said that and I was like let me look. I was like oh yeah. Imagine. I was like this is some of the smallest print I've ever seen.
- [45:20]
Kim John Payne
When they said the second edition. I said to my editor, the loveliest lady, I said to Mani, I'll agree to this if you just make the printer just please and make the paper not so nasty. And he laughed and I said, no, no, no, no, I'm serious. And so they did.
- [45:38]
Jenny Urch
But I mean, it is a transformative book. I think it's just, it's foundational and it's needed more now than it even was in 2009. I mean, it's needed like every parent needs to read it. And you have to keep going back to it because there's always, always more pressure as kids go through different developmental stages. So I was just talking to a friend recently and her daughter is the last one in the neighborhood to get a cell phone and she's 10. And so like, you're coming, you're constantly coming back to that pressure of too much. I want to read just a couple of these statements. I mean, this book will, it will change your life and you have it on yourself and you come back to it time and again. The multiplicity of outcomes in play builds an inner flexibility. In general, kids learn through the practice of play not to be attached to their vision of what to do or what might happen. That's entrepreneurship. You can't be attached. You have to be flexible. The self directed play builds multiple and emotional intelligences. It fosters the skills necessary to navigate an uncertain future, one that will demand increasing flexibility and creative problem solving. Play is not an old fashioned thing of the past. Unstructured play, and plenty of it, is a developmental necessity for kids, some might say now more than ever. Emotional intelligence can't be bought or rushed. Bought or rushed, you can't buy emotional intelligence. It develops with the slow emergence of identity and the gradual accumulation of life experiences. The pressure is off when you no longer view childhood as an enrichment opportunity, but instead as an unfolding experience in ecology with its own pace and natural system. By consciously backing off the adult sense of more and faster and early parents back out of a child's world, protecting it without controlling it. I mean, people get to see like you just highlight, highlight what in the world.
- [47:31]
Kim John Payne
This book is so good, Jenny. I live in western Massachusetts and the soil here is very, very rich right now. Now for some reason, some farmers for generations have been superphosphating, have been fertilizing their soil and fertilizing, wanting to squeeze more and more and more out of their yields. And those beautiful rich deep soils now are just dust bowls. They are just dust bowls. They have no structure anymore. There's no soil structure. It's similarly, if we grow our kids too fast, we're super phosphating them. We want to pack 18 years of development into the first eight years and. And it just ends up as if they just, they don't grow with substance. To, to mix my metaphors, a very dear friend of mine, the singer Jewel, I don't know if you know of her songs. We, we work quite a bit together and I, I just adore her music and she's a lovely person, a lovely mum. And she had a hard upbringing in Alaska, really tough. And she would spend long hours sort of escaping into the woods and she would look at the trees after storms had gone through. And it was the softwood which grew really fast, which would always be blown over. It was the hardwood which had grown slow, which was standing and could withstand the storm. That metaphor that she brings her writing and songwriting is a beautiful one for childhood. Hardwood grows slow. If we grow kids real fast, we can do it. But when the squalls of life come, it's just not as deep rooted in values, in their own values because they've grown up fast and they've been watching like last kid in the block by the age of 10 to not have a cell phone for me. And now I'm going to be a little provocative. Once a smartphone enters a kid's life, childhood starts ending. We can pull it back, we can rescue it, but it's really. I went to, I went to a conference. I've been wanting to go to a conference for years, but I kept being rejected. I couldn't get in. It was a conference to marketers, the premier, the, like the really top level marketers. And I wanted to go embedded, I wanted to go undercover. And so I'd apply to get into this really prestigious conference and all they had to do was Google me and they would see me being rude on national network television about, well, them. And so I got, I never got anyway, over Covid. They mustn't have been so careful. And I got in. Now, it was a virtual conference in this case. But the reason I'm saying all this, Jenny, is I went to a workshop where there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people attending. All the top app designers, the gaming designers, the sugary breakfast cereal designers, the children's clothing sneaker designers, they were all there. But by far and away, the gaming and social networking, all those, the IT people, these are the marketing people. And about. It took about 15 minutes into the conference for me to understand into this workshop because the workshop had a title. And I thought, that's it. I don't get it. What's the title? The title was Case Studies in the Successful Removal of Purchasing Friction in Children's Purchasing Decisions. And I thought, thought, okay, gosh. So I followed everyone there because it was by far the most popular one. And turns out, Jenny, we have a new name. We're not referred to by marketers as parents. Our new name is Purchasing Friction. That's our name. And this was a conference for the leading people around the world in the removal of our values from children so that they could then decide what to buy. And they did it. I mean, I'm just there observing this, thinking, oh, and they're perfectly open about it. They'll do it first of all with the promise of peer parenting. Peer parenting. And what that means is that there's ads. And they showed them. If you buy this console for your child, right, you buy this, whatever, this game, then Your child, your 9 year old or whoever will admit you to their friendship group. You will be admitted as a junior member because then they'll teach you how to play and they will think other kids will comment, you've got the coolest dad. And they show the ads about and how this, you know, the child's nine and the dad is not. And they found they did this because of our, they, they, they go at our pain points, our parental psychological pain points where we want to be accepted and have these lovely relationships with our kids and they twist it to their own end. And the result of that is that the child now gets to have this console. But the real result of it is that they have just undermined us and undermined our values as a parent. They've basically made us, they've subjugated us and put the child in charge. Now if a child is in charge, that is a stressed child because who's keeping me safe on a real basic, brain based, lower, primitive level, someone as a little kid has got to be keeping me safe. If I'm calling the shots, that's kind of fun, but that's kind of scary. And the second, the backup strategy if that doesn't work, they called it the Home Alone maneuver. Do you remember the Home Alone movies?
- [53:41]
Jenny Urch
One of my favorites.
- [53:43]
Kim John Payne
Yeah, you're right. So where the adults are portrayed as stupid, negligent, out of touch, not to be listened to, where the kids save the day and there's a slew of product placements, ads and so on, portraying adults as not to be listened to and they Lean into another study in pester power. If the child asks you for, I don't know, a new pair of sneakers and you say no, $150. Like, no, we're not, we can't do that, love now your feet are growing too fast. But. And you say no four times. The kids will quit if it's a media driven request. In other words, ads keep saying you've got to have this thing to be cool. Don't listen to your parents. They're stupid. They don't understand about really cool sneakers. Okay, then they will come back 32 times. And this study has been out for a while now and the marketers know it. And they spend, by the way, $16 billion a year on marketing to under 12s and over 90% of all their marketing spend is done via screenshots. Now think about that, Jenny. We are giving our child this weapon of mass disconnection to our values and they've got us paying for it.
- [55:13]
Jenny Urch
32.
- [55:14]
Kim John Payne
Yep.
- [55:15]
Jenny Urch
32 times 32. Wow. Because most parents would be able to say I could say no four times, but 32, that is so much. You had this quote in the book which really applies here. I think, think it's by Ralph, Ralph Waldo Emerson. It says, a hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer. It's like, can you hold out? Can you just hold out? Can you hold out a little bit longer? And that's what's going to make so much of the difference. And this is a tremendous thing to know about the book. I mean, I, we have scratched the surface. I, I mean it is, it was remarkable because I've gone back to the parts that I've underlined. It was remarkable to me when I like read it through again without just focusing on what I'd focused on before. It was remarkable, like how much of it was meaningful to me and how much of it made me think and ponder and consider. You know, you talk about the spectrum sliding along the spectrum, which is an interesting thing, like the waltz of the D's. You talk, you talk about maybe, maybe we could just wrap it up here with this is an equation. This works out well. I used to be a math teacher. It's an equation q +s equals d. And I think that this is really applicable to this time in life. The quirks plus stress often slide that you know, where we're at on the spectrum with our quirks and we all have them into the spot of disorders. I don't know if we even have Time. Do you have a little bit, you could say about the.
- [56:50]
Kim John Payne
That just a little bit after a four year funded study, myself and my colleague Bonnie river did into. Into attentional issues with kids. Four years, lots of data, data, data. But what it kind of reduced down to was that all kids have their quirks. It makes them so lovable and kind of infuriating. You know what I mean? It's like. And they all have their quirks. If we add cumulative, under the radar, ubiqu, ubiquitous new normal, commonly accepted stress to their lives, that quirk, let's say it's a very busy child. They're just busy, they just love to be busy. That quirk will start to become problematic because now they start to just be. They can't settle. And it. And then you keep adding cumulative new normal stress to their lives and that child starts to develop ADHD like symptoms. I'm not, I'm not denying there isn't adhd. You know, add, odd, pdd, ocd. This is the walls of the deeds. There's lots of D's waiting for us. I'm not denying them. But what I'm saying is that they're inflamed quirks. They're quirks in Soul Fever. But here's the thing, perhaps to round off this, this beautiful 500th edition, is that a calmed quirk, cumulative simplicity, not cumulative stress, but cumulative simplicity, which is so easy to do because it means just doing less. Cumulative simplicity slides their quirk along to their gift and even their genius. So that very busy child, for example, when they have a cumulatively simple life, given lots of time to play, not over scheduled, not over screened, not over cluttered, but they just have this spacious little bit, just a little bit more of a spacious life. And we do what we can, whatever we can. That child, their gift is that they're the movers and shakers. They're so fun to play with, but in the future they're the innovators, they're the, they're the entrepreneurs. Right? Isn't it beautiful that we have some of the influence? I'm not suggesting it's everything, but which way they go will be helped by giving them a spacious, simple and honestly, just a balanced life. This is not weird, it's just balance.
- [59:30]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. I want to read two last sentences here. When you talk about the waltz of the D's and you say we're doing a fine carving up, is that the wording? Add, adhd, ocd, odd. The all too common dance these days, the waltz of the D'S. This fine carving up of our children.
- [59:52]
Kim John Payne
It's carving, it's pathologizing. Right. We pathologize children into these boxes. And I'm not suggesting there isn't these tendencies. What I am suggesting, and I'm not suggesting if they do have ADD odd that it's our fault. It's not. We've got to get beyond. No one needs fingers pointed at them. You know, and anyway, my Scottish grandmother used to say, for every finger that points at someone, three point at you and then one points at God asking for forgiveness. She, she couldn't help that one. So as a child I learned to point like that. I learned to point with all my fingers pointing forward. It's him anyway. And there's photographic evidence of me pointing at people in that way. But what we can influence because there is tendencies and it's not necessarily our fault, but what we can do, there's just 1500 coaches around the world. We've got a lot of feedback and it's cross cultural crosses, economic boundaries, socioeconomic boundaries, is that when kids have a simplified and balanced life life, their gifts and even their geniuses start to emerge more that we know.
- [61:12]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. And so you slide along the spectrum and adults do too. We all slide along that spectrum. If people are interested, they can do the coaching. They can do it for themselves. They can do it with a group. There's over 1500 coaches. You could even become a coach and I'll make sure I'll put the links in because wouldn't that be a wonderful thing? You can really influence those people that are around you in your, in your area and you say, and all the books are wonderful. I mean they are just wonderful. I have not read one that I've not been slack jawed as to how good it was and how much we needed it and strengthening our family base camp. I mean, these have been the mainstays, pillars of our family life. Every single one. Beyond winning, all of them have been things that. They're like a part of my soul. You know, the words and the concepts you wrote. It's not always easy to recognize the oak in the shape of an acorn. And I thought, oh my goodness, is that deep? You know, you have to wait. It takes time. You're not going to recognize it right away. And I want to end this is the 500th episode. This is a quote I share all the time when I speak different places. And it's one I have memorized. But I'm gonna read it out the book because I have it right in front of me. It's at the very end, the very last page of the simplicity parenting. And it says this. My point is this, right near the end here, rescue their childhood from stress and they will inevitably, remarkably, day by day, rescue you right back. This is an answer for everyone. This book is an answer for everyone for all time. And it's always pertinent. It will continue to be pertinent. And Kim, what an honor. Episode 500 I'll put all the other ones that you've been on and I'm just, just so thankful for this opportunity to have gotten to spend all these hours with you. I'm like, people probably are very jealous of me. It's just been said. I mean, I'm like thrilled about it. I want to say you have influenced our family for generations, generational legacy and everyone who's listened in. Thank you so much.
- [63:13]
Kim John Payne
I am so honored. Jenny, Happy birthday.
- [63:18]
Jenny Urch
Thank you. Do you want to learn the Bible? In a way that's encouraging, surprising, and even entertaining. Check out the Bible Stories podcast. Each week Bible Stories brings you classics, you know, and hidden gems that you might have missed. Have you ever heard about the time that King David fought a giant and he lost? Or when Paul preached so long a guy fell asleep he tumbled out the of window and had to be brought back to life? Did you know that God himself buried Moses and that Michael the Archangel and the devil fought over Moses body? Yeah, it gets wild. So tune in for storytelling that's biblical, insightful and a lot of fun. Subscribe today to Bible Stories with Matt Mullins and Todd Haymans, available wherever you get your podcasts.