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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 521: Nature is an Essential Part of Childhood | Linda McGurk, Rain or Shine Mamma
00:47:36
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- [00:01]
Ginny Urch
This episode is brought to you by Polestar. There's only one true way to experience the all electric luxury SUV Polestar 3, and that's to take a test drive. It can go from 0 to 60 in as little as 4.8 seconds with the dynamic handling of a sports car. But to truly understand how it commands the road, you need to be behind the wheel. Up to 350 miles of range. The 3D surround sound system by Bowers and Wilkins. It's all something you have to experience to believe. So book your Test drive for Polestar 3 today@Polestar.com welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. One of your favorite guests is back. Linda Oakenson McGurk. Rain or shine, mama. Welcome.
- [00:38]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Thank you, Jenny. It's such an honor to be back. Thank you.
- [00:42]
Ginny Urch
Your books have changed my life. They are so fantastic. I was definitely an endure winter person, like, when is it going to be over? And, and also, honestly, even in the summers where you're like, oh, all these bugs, I was kind of like that. I was always just grumpily marching my way through. And I have read your books and they have changed my life. You've been on our podcast several times. Really one of the only ones consistently talking to parents, to people, to kids about, like, hey, you can go outside in whatever weather.
- [01:14]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah, yeah. It's become sort of my. My specialty niche. And. Yeah, and thanks again. I think it's my fourth time on the podcast now, and I wanted to take the opportunity to congratulate you too, for passing the milestone of 500 episodes. I think having this platform has made a huge difference in people like me being able to, you know, get out there and inspire others, other families. That's been my mission for the past well over 10 years now. We started out around the same time and yeah, the weather has kind of become my little, little niche. But of course, my books talk about a lot of other things too. But that is one of the big hurdles that I hear parents and educators talk about is that, well, it's either too cold or too wet or too windy to be outside. And, and I'm just here to tell people that it's okay. Your kids are not going to get sick. They can be out there and play and you should join them too, and try to, you know, reassess your. Your attitude towards the weather, too. You might be surprised that the effect it'll have.
- [02:20]
Ginny Urch
One of the things that we didn't really ever talk about is the fact that you are a journalist and a photographer, so you're doing something completely different. And then you just happen to come to the United States, you have kids here, and you're like, wait a minute. It's just confusing more than anything. One of the things that you said was you thought it was a universal parenting practice, which is a really interesting piece. I do think that most of us think that parenting practices are universal. We do what we saw our parents do, we do what we saw our grandparents do. And then if you end up in a different culture, you can be like, well, wait a minute. People are not prioritizing the outdoors.
- [02:56]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah.
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Ginny Urch
Can you talk about what happened there? It was kind of shocking.
- [02:59]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah. I was born and raised in Sweden. To give you a little bit of background, I came to the US when I was in my 20s. And then that's also where I had my, my children. We lived in Indiana for many years. And what I noticed especially, and it became especially clear when I had children there, was that it was a very different upbringing from what I'd had in Sweden. All the Scandinavian countries are very nature loving and nature is sort of seen as an essential part of childhood. So for the first, you know, formal schooling doesn't really start till age 6 or 7. And until then, I think the most important thing that people or parents want kids to do is to just be outside and play because it's very, it's, you know, it's so viewed as very important for them, for their growth and development. And then when my kids were little in the US and, and I took them outside in the wintertime, people thought I was crazy for being out there. They thought that kids should be indoors and they thought they were going to get sick. And I just noticed that the playgrounds were deserted and that there wasn't really this sort of emphasis on connecting children with nature or outdoor play. I think over the past generation, childhood has moved indoors. And what I noticed is I think children are worse off because of it. They're physically weaker and mentally more anxious than they used to be. And I noticed too, a difference in the push for early academics in the US where the preschools were very sort of academically focused, parents were stressed out about their kids being ready for kindergarten and like learning to read. Whereas in Sweden, if your kid doesn't read when they start school at age 7, it's not really a big deal. People are not that concerned. I mean, not, not that they don't care, but they're more relaxed about it. They, they can see the benefits of letting children learning at their own pace. I think in the Us, We've seen that there's been more and more pressure to. For kids to sort of perform and reach these academic milestones. Early on, that was a really a big difference to me. And I knew where I came from and what we had done, so I felt pretty secure in my viewpoints. And then it was. And I figured that people. There's going to be other parents in the US who felt like childhood was being rushed too. And so that's why I started my blog and I started to try to reach out to other parents and inspire people to get outside just by being out there with my kids and talking about it and, and showing other parents that, hey, you know, it's okay to be outside. This is really good for kids. You know, look at all this research. We have all these studies now showing that this is really what kids need in the early years. It's got everything that they need for healthy growth and development and so on. So it was just on from there. And then I wrote the two books and yeah, the two books are fantastic.
- [06:16]
Ginny Urch
They'll change your life. They're called there's no Such Thing as Bad Weather and the Open Air Life. They're phenomenal books. What's interesting to me is that your journalism and photography skills and background just came right into play. You had no idea that you were going to be using them for this because you had no idea that this wasn't a universal parenting practice. This is my question, Linda. I thought this was so interesting when you talked about your own childhood. And no one really reflects on their own childhood until way later. Maybe they never do it, but you're an adult and you're. You're sort of reminiscing and thinking back. And you wrote, when I grew up, I was taught to go outside every day. I was taught to go outside every day. This is part of parenting, rain or shine. Because it was good for me. At the time, I probably didn't even realize how true that was. I was quite contented making mud pies and building forts in the woods. So you're taught it's good for you. This is the thing that I wonder about here in the United States, because kids did used to play outside. I played outside a ton as a kid, but I wasn't taught that it was good for me. It was just what we did. Because there was nothing else. Right? There wasn't as much television. You know, you're bugging your parents. Maybe people didn't have air conditioning. So there was no educational component to it. It was just sor what you did because there was nothing else to do. And I almost wonder if that is a big part of the disconnect because then all of a sudden screens come, there's more pressure for school, school earlier and no one has any sort of foundation to know, oh, this is good for us. Do you know where in the history, like that's a big difference.
- [07:50]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
It is, it is definitely. And now we're having, you know, you said you, you remember playing outside when, when you were a kid. But now then we have a new generation and among them we're seeing that a lot of them actually did not have that or they already had a more screen based childhood. So, so I think we have to even more now with, also with the rise of digital devices and all this, we have to be pushing this even more. And I think there's a definitely a strong cultural component to this. In the Nordic countries we are rooted in open air life is what it sort of roughly translates to. It's this sort of way of life that focuses on being outside and enjoying nature. Just simple everyday activities. In your nearby nature doesn't have to involve big adventures. I mean, sure, yeah, if you want to go hiking in the mountains and in the woods, yes, absolutely. But it's like 80% of it is probably just going for walks around your neighborhood. And I believe that really helped me feel very strongly about, you know, passing this on to my children because that's how it's been passed down from one generation to the next before me. And so I felt very secure in that. But also another difference is that in Sweden you're not like you have a whole support system in the US I often feel like it's always like all on the parents. And frankly, if you're, if your two parents working full time, your children are in daycare or they're at preschool part of the day and a forest school costs, you know, tens of thousands of dollars per year. You almost have to either be a stay at home parent or, you know, and, or have a lot of money to be able to give them that. Yeah. To get that sort of nature connection. I'm not saying you have to, but it's, it's harder. Like you have to work a lot harder. It's harder to get, you know, when, when experts recommend four to six hours of outdoor play every day, it's hard to fathom how two full time working parents are going to do that. Whereas in the Nordic countries you have from the very get go like a village that supports this outdoor play. So you have the whole health care system encouraging you to let your baby nap outdoors. For example, at the government run preschools and daycares, they are required to take the children outdoors. It's actually mandated in the curriculum, the national curriculum for the preschool. And 95% of the children here do go to these preschools. You have grandparents who are very sort of invested in the fearless leave tradition often, so you have support from them and, and just, you know, your own parents. Also on the weekends and in your free time, there's a tradition of this outdoor culture of getting outside together. It's usually, it's how we sort of strengthen family bonds. So I do think that is really important and that's why I've been trying to. I mean, I understand each culture is unique, and I'm not trying to transplant Nordic culture to the U.S. or in the U.S. but I think that, I think every culture can learn from each other. Different culture cultures can learn from each other. And this is a very, I think, a very positive aspect of Nordic culture that we can adapt for American conditions.
- [11:34]
Ginny Urch
And it sort of transcends child development. No matter where you live, kids need to be outside.
- [11:40]
Unknown
Let's talk about something we all deal with. Nutrition. Look, I'm not going to lie. Feeding a busy family, getting outside, juggling schedules, and still trying to eat well, that is a tall order. I've had moments where I think I wish someone would just tell me what my body actually needs. That is why I love Faye Nutrition. Faye connects you one on one with a real registered dietitian, someone who actually knows what they're doing, not just the Internet or an influencer with an oat milk obsession. These dietitians get to know you, your goals, your lifestyle, your health needs, and they build a personalized plan that's realistic and sustainable. And the kicker, they take insurance. Yep, 95% of people pay $0 out of pocket. I thought dietitians were for athletes or celebrities. But you can get help with energy dips and meal planning for your outdoor days for free. Faye is helping people with everything from weight loss to gut health, food allergies, postpartum nutrition, you name it, they've helped over 100,000 people get healthier. Having a personalized nutritionist used to cost big bucks, but not anymore. With Fay, listeners of 1000 Hours Outside can qualify to see a registered dietitian for as little as $0 by visiting fay nutrition.com 1000 hours. That's f nutrition.com 1000 hours. One last time. That's fay f a y nutrition.com 1000 hours and make sure you use this URL so they know I sent you. Hey friends, it's Ginny urch from the 1000 Hours Outside podcast and I've got to tell you, this Michigan summer is no joke. The humidity and the heat are relentless and if your house is anything like mine, sleep suddenly becomes this battle of tossing, turning and sweating through the night. But that all changed when I tried Cozy Earth. Their temperature regulating sheets made from viscous from bamboo, actually wick away heat and moisture. I'm not exaggerating when I say I've been sleeping several degrees cooler and deeper and it's not just about comfort. Did you know that sleeping in a cooler environment helps release melatonin and improve sleep quality? It's true. I fall asleep faster and wake up feeling better. Honestly, I wish I had these sheets years ago, especially during those long hot nights with a newborn. Here's the best part. Cozy earth offers a 100 night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty on all their bedding. That's a decade of better sleep, risk free. So go upgrade your summer head to cozyearth.com and use code outside for 40% off their bestselling temperature regulating sheets, apparel and more. That's cozyearth.com and use code Outside Sleep Cooler Lounge Lighter Stay Cozy let's talk summer essentials. And I mean true essentials.
- [14:16]
Ginny Urch
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- [14:20]
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- [14:22]
Ginny Urch
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- [14:25]
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And it smells great too.
- [14:27]
Ginny Urch
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- [14:46]
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- [15:01]
Ginny Urch
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- [15:07]
Unknown
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- [15:10]
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Before it was cool. Never synthetic, always thoughtful and made in small batches by the hands of real masterful makers. Want to try it? The answer should be yes because 1000 hours outside listeners get 25 off with code 1000 hours@sallyander.com that's S A L L Y-E A N--E-R.com and use code 1000 hours. It's interesting about the time frame because it is a really tricky thing, especially because recesses are short. And I know Angela Hanscom talks about like a 3 hour ish a day threshold for optimal development. And same thing, you know, if you're looking at and you're like, well, gosh, you know, we don't get home from work till 5:30, the kids go to bed at 8. You know, it's, it's a really tricky thing. Yeah, but if the schools could just take a little bit of it, you know, an hour.
- [15:58]
Unknown
An hour.
- [15:59]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Because that's really, that shocked me when my kids started school in the US that there was so little recess in Sweden. The, the, for one, the school days were shorter, but they also had, I think like a fifth of the school day was recess. And that is up until, you know, they get into high school. And even high school isn't as, you know, as compact as it is in, in the US So. And, and also recess was something that could get taken away from the kids if somebody had spoken too loud in the cafeteria. Well, you know, sorry kids, no recess. Or once again, the weather often put a stop to recess. It's like, okay, indoor recess. Well, watching a movie is not going to be the same as being outdoors, moving around, you know, being out there, feeling the, getting that sensory stimulation from being out and feeling the wind on your face and, and all that. So recess is, yeah, definitely really important. And, and I hope that we can get to a point where more schools do realize the importance of, of recess. And I know, I understand they're kind of stuck in between a rock and a hard place. They have their requirements and there's a lot of pressure. But also when you think about it, when you look at the research that says that kids actually learn better when they get to be outside. They focus better after coming inside when they've been outdoors and run off some of that excess energy. And we know that there are some parts of the brain that just are just activated when we're outside. Then it's hard for me to understand why you wouldn't sort of take that scientific evidence and just sort of implement it. Yeah, that, that does, I don't, doesn't make any sense.
- [17:47]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, I mean, it's time to really step back and look at the numbers because Angela Hanscom has those timber nook programs. And I talked to this one lady who had one in a school system. She runs one in the school. And the kids get an hour of recess every day. That's their standard. And then a couple days a week, they also get an hour of timber nook time. So they're outside for two out of their six hours of the school day, you know, or something like that.
- [18:08]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Same.
- [18:09]
Ginny Urch
It's a 20 to 30%. And she said their test scores have stayed the same, they haven't dropped. So if there's a possibility to increase that outdoor time and it's not gonna affect your test scores now, they didn't go up, but they didn't go down. So it just a win, win, win for everybody. A little bit more time for kids to play outside. It's not making things worse.
- [18:28]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah, and there are some studies too, indicating that test scores can actually go up when you incorporate more outdoor time. But like you said, I don't think that should be a deal breaker either way because there's more to life than test scores. There is so much more. I mean, you gotta look at the whole child. They are not just a letter in their report card. They are whole human beings. And their bodies need to. Yeah, their bodies need that fresh air. They need to. They need the physical activity. They need to be out and. And have unstructured plays that they can figure out those social cues and play without adult interaction. So that. And also play in risky ways so they can learn how to manage risk. Yeah. There's so much more to it than the academic part. And I think in general, we tend to over emphasize academic achievements over all.
- [19:26]
Ginny Urch
The other developments you had written in your book in Rain or Shine Mama. And I just. I so remember this. I mean, I read it years and years ago. It just completely, completely changed my whole outlook on these different seasons. And I really started to embrace winter. I mean, it was really a powerful read for me. And the open air life is so good. Learning about free loose leave. I'm just gonna throw it out there, but just really learning more about that cultural. Like, you're like, everybody knows that word and people say it all the time and it's just part of everything. But in Rain or Shine Mama, you said there's more to life than an Ivy League education. And I just thought that really stuck with me. It's really powerful. We have to consider the whole child. And I think that all of the things that you just brought up about cultural differences can get someone's wheel spinning. So in My mind, I'm thinking, okay, what are the things that are going on? There's an education component, the culture. Everyone seems to know that getting outside is good for you. They have, you know, they maybe know some of the different research. They understand that the cold weather is not going to make people sick. So can we start to create these maybe small cultures around us where five or six families, everybody understands that getting outside is good for you, that it's okay to go outside in different kinds of weather. Can, you know, we start to get the grandparents on board a little bit? Because I do hear a lot of grandparents that are like, don't go. Which is surprising because they're from a couple of generations past. But they are scared. They don't want the kids to get hurt. So, you know, can we start to bring in the grandparents? Can we up that recess a little bit? People are fighting for it here in Michigan. There's this like a say yes to recess whole thing. And you know, just an hour a day, can we fight for it to help these families that are coming home later in the day and they're both working and then you just need a little bit more time outside. Play catch for a half hour, 45 minutes and your kids getting quite a bit. So all of those cultural things could make a huge difference.
- [21:14]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely, I agree. I think we need to build up those villages because we, we live in a different society today than 50 years ago when all kids play outside. And we're not going to get, maybe get back to that. But we can create something different and something that may even be better. I mean, we can. Families can join forces, like you said, to support each other. Maybe they can take turns watching Diago kids. Right?
- [21:41]
Ginny Urch
Yes. Yeah, like one mom. So, you know, I hear sometimes of parents that will stay after school at the playground, which I think is a great idea. And a lot of these schools have great playgrounds and they're not being used very much.
- [21:52]
Unknown
Right.
- [21:52]
Ginny Urch
The kids are outside for 22 minutes of recess. So some moms, they stay after. Well, if you could have six or seven moms day after, you could maybe even rotate through.
- [22:03]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Right, right, exactly.
- [22:05]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. I love the idea of sharing the load. And then the kids are getting a lot of multi age play. So you talk about scheduling around the weather, but in order to do that you have to be a little bit less busy. So you can say like, these days are the best, you know, you know, we're for sure going out on this day. That day is looking a little bit iffy. But beyond the thought of kids should play outside in whatever weather. I think it's so important because you talk about the benefit of that. It's not just, oh, you know, everyone can go outside no matter the weather. It's more than that. It's the fact that when kids and people in general are in uncomfortable situations, it helps them learn how to deal with discomfort and they become more gritty and more resilient. Can we talk about that piece? Because that's something that we really want for our kids.
- [22:51]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah, I think, you know, experiencing different types of weather, it really helps children prepare for the unexpected. And I think that's so valuable for children to have these sort of everyday challenges. You know, when kids are out in the cold and rain and all sorts of inclement conditions, I think it tells them that, well, their well being is not, you know, it doesn't depend on the whims of the weather. They can grow, I think from knowing that it can be, you know, it could be a little difficult, but they're going to be okay, they can get through it. So I think a lot of, I think a lot of power can come from that. And then there's also risk judgment. I think, I think it's important for kids to know how to deal with different weather because you may actually find yourself stuck as an adult. You might find yourself stuck with your car somewhere in the middle of winter. There could be all power outage and there could be all sorts of natural disasters or, or you never know what life's going to throw at you. And I think that having these small ways of challenging children early on, I think that will help build, you know, prepare them for life as, as adults. And again, like, I think we also forget that humans haven't always grown up in these climate controlled environments. I think this is, you know, this is a very recent part of our history and people in other parts of the world still don't. And humans are a lot more adaptable than we, than we might think. So I think a lot of times it's, it's also like our biases as adults that sort of affect the children. So I think we need to be really conscious. I think we need to think of that as adults, you know, to be a good role model and to show kids that we too enjoy being outdoors even when the weather isn't perfect. I think we kind of have to check our attitudes towards the weather because I think if we have a poor attitude then that's going to rub off, rub off on our children and they Are often like little children are usually very like excited about playing outdoors no matter the weather. I mean, just look at a child's face that's jumping in a puddle or just found out the joy of, you know, getting really like rolling in a puddle of mud. Whereas us adults, we tend to think of all the inconveniences like, oh, now we're gonna need to do laundry again or it's the road is slick. Then yeah, it's going to take us longer to our commute to work. But kids love sliding on ice and I think we should try to think more like kids, like be open to those different conditions and really see the opportunities that they offer instead of just always being all down on the weather. So that's something that we as adults can think about.
- [25:45]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. Yesterday we were at this place called Greenfield Village. I don't know if you ever heard of it in Indiana, but it's in Michigan and it's like this old fashioned village. It's. They have like old model T cars that you can go on a ride in, but it's this old fashioned village, all these buildings and I mean we spent hours outside. There's. But you know, my kids kind of think it's boring. They're like. And, and so my youngest daughter said yesterday, I would rather do nothing than go to Greenfield Village. And I mean I like, I've grown to like it. They've got a working farm there. All of these different old fashioned. It's a very popular. So I'm. No, no, like shade, no throwing shade on Greenville Village. It's a great place. But you know, sometimes kids are like, eh. Anyway, so we went and it just, I mean, poured buckets of rain while we were there. Just buckets and buckets of rain. And so she was there and our cousins were there and all they did was was jumping the puddles. They were soaked. I mean just soaked head to toe clothes, sopping wet puddles everywhere, just jumping in everything. And they said we will come here anytime if it rains.
- [26:42]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
I love it.
- [26:42]
Ginny Urch
I love it if it rains.
- [26:44]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah. And I just want to loop back to what you were saying about like resilience earlier with the weather. When my daughter, my youngest daughter, when she was 8, I took her to Swedish Lapland to go hiking. And I did it with my older daughter too when she was 8. So we went on this big hike. We were out for like five days, four nights. We had a tent and it was kind of a little bit hardcore. And up there it doesn't. We were there in the middle of the summer. But it doesn't get very warm when we're like a far, far north of the Arctic Circle, right? So it doesn't get very warm. And it was like maybe 50 degrees and sort of blowing up a storm just in time for when we're gonna put up this tent, right? So we're hiking for maybe like 10 miles in these mountains and then. And it starts to rain. And so by the time we get to this place where we're gonna set up our tent, we're soaked and the tent is almost like blowing off the mountain. And it's just like this disaster. And we finally get the tent up and get in there and didn't get a whole lot of sleep that night because it, the wind blew so hard. And the funny thing is, like what my daughter remembers from that trip, it's not like these magnificent views. I mean, this is beautiful wilderness. It's not the midnight sun, it's not the reindeer. I mean, she remembers those things. But that's not what she talks about when, when we tell other people about our trip. She tells people about the time that she, you know, when we hiked through this storm and she almost blew off the mountain. And it's like the story gets more and more vivid for every time that she tells it. But at the end of the day, you know, she's really proud that like she got through this and yeah, and we made it and, and I think it just goes to show that it's not always about like the, the, the sunny days that that makes the biggest impressions.
- [28:55]
Ginny Urch
What does that do for your soul? We made it. You know, I can do. I, I felt that way about certain things I've done outside. Even recently, I did a winter hike in Colorado with my daughter and I was like, I'm not going to make it. I can't hardly breathe. And the elevation and she wanted to go so bad. And it wasn't even all that far. It was three miles, Linda, there. But the big elevation change and we had the things on our, you know, on our shoes to hold into the snow. If I think back on that, I'm like in my soul, I feel triumphant. It, it just changes. Those things matter. I don't think you can measure that. But that feeling of accomplishment, that feeling of confidence, that feeling of competence, you know, I wrangled my tent, we made it through the night. 10 miles of hiking in a day for an 8 year old, I mean, that's incredible. That's incredible to have that stamina.
- [29:41]
Unknown
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- [32:06]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
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- [32:36]
Ginny Urch
So then talk to us. Linda. You, you. I, I do think it's really important to know that even though you didn't have the cultural surroundings and even though people are like, you're really weird, they're stopping you, you know, they're driving by their car and with their car and you're outside in the rain or you're outside in the snow and they're like, can we help you? You know, you're like, no, this is what we're trying to do. This is what we meant to do. You still did it in Indiana, you know, in the Midwest of all places. In Indiana, you still did that even though it was different than the culture around you. Can you talk about. And you and I really relate here how that plays out then by the time they become tweens and teens, because I feel like that's one of the hugest benefits too is that you end up sort of having a different child because they're, they've been wired to enjoy and seek out hands on real life experiences, even if there are some screens involved.
- [33:29]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah, yeah. And we're not a screen free family by any means.
- [33:33]
Ginny Urch
We're not either.
- [33:34]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Right. I think there can be a balance. Even though, having said that, I would, had I done it all over again, I probably, I would have delayed more. I would have. But we moved back to Sweden when my kids were 7 and 10. So they actually went through their tween and teen years here in, in Sweden. So that was a little different from Indiana. But I believe like no matter what your kids, you know, when they get into their teen years, it's so hard. Like it's such a, it can be a turbulent time. It's like so many hormones and things going on. They're like learning how to be an adult. And I think no matter what, I'm so happy that I sort of gave them that foundation where they have, they're in that habit of being outdoors every day. If they know that's part of what we do. That's how our, you know, that's how our family is. And now being in Sweden, of course, that's also more part of the culture than. Than it was in Indiana. And it's been interesting to see how they now try to like how they do this, but in their own way. My oldest daughter is 17 now, 17 and a half. So she's almost, yeah, literally an adult. And so she. I mean, she's out on her own a lot now with her friends and. And I wouldn't say that they go camping by themselves, but. But I still see them be. I still see the outdoors being a part of their everyday life. Like whether they are eating a picnic at the park or they are walking around town. I mean, it's also about just getting that sort of everyday movement in outdoors, like every day. Yeah. Just like, instead of driving somewhere that you actually, for them, it's normal to walk if you can. So that's been really interesting to. To see. And we still, we still to this day, I mean, we go for walks together. Not every day because as they get older, school also takes more of their free time. And they have other hobbies now too. But I always try to make sure that we get at least, you know, a few. A couple walks in every week where we can connect. And I really. The older they get, the more I really value those moments because I know it's not going to last forever. And so I'm like. I really try to squeeze everything I can out of it. And I do think that it is when we go for those walks, I think. I feel like that's when we find the best connection, honestly, because that's. That's how we've always connected. That's. That's how. That's how we do it in our family. And I know that they will always have nature as they'll always be able to fall back on that. I mean, nature is so beneficial to mental health too. I mean, we're looking at a. We now have an almost an epidemic of anxiety and depression among teens and especially teen girls. And I think about that a lot, raising girls, you know. And so to me, it's been important to really anchor them in nature so that they know that they can use that as a resource and as a place to connect, no matter what life throws at you. So that's been really important to me.
- [36:54]
Ginny Urch
As we've got kids the same age because our oldest turned 17 two days ago. And, you know, it's interesting to look back and you can really see it. You can actually see it. You wouldn't know actually. When we were at Greenfield Village yesterday, I met this other mom who was doing 1,000 hours outside named Hannah, and she had a 2 year old and a 4 year old boy with her. And when you're in those stages of life, you can't know. You can't know that if I delay screens, if I limit, if I limit the screen time, if I really prioritize outdoor life in 10 years, in, in 14 years, you know, I'm going to really notice a difference. I'm going to. But you can, you can see it. You can see that they are very engaged in real life. And even if you've had some screens along the way.
- [37:35]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah.
- [37:36]
Ginny Urch
That they are in. They're open to adventure and their relationships are different. So it's worth it. You actually can see the difference and it is wonderful. And then you have an adventure buddy.
- [37:47]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Right.
- [37:47]
Ginny Urch
And actually, in some ways, my, my kids. I know you're really adventurous. My kids push me beyond what I'm comfortable with now. So it, it comes full circle. It's a wonderful thing. So you're talking about. You gotta read the books. The books are really life changing. Like, even as someone who was getting outside, they really changed my life and gave me a lot about. But you're talking about starting at babies. Yes, yes, yes. The babies. All the way through. All the way through. Taking your 8 year old on 10 mile hikes, camping when it's 50 degrees in the wind, in the storm, all the way through these teenage years, you prioritize it all the way through and then it just becomes this part of your family. And we're going to be able to talk in five years about what is it like now when they're in their 20s? Maybe we'll come on and be like outdoor grandmas, Linda. We'll talk about that. But one of the things that's really unique about you in particular, that I don't, you know, I'm not really doing and I don't necessarily see a lot of other people talk about, certainly we talk about kids, but you really model it personally. I mean, you're out there jumping in the cold water, you're out there doing these hikes. So you're, you're doing a solo camping challenge right now?
- [38:50]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
I am, yes. I have been since January. So once a month I go out in my nearby woods usually. And I chose to do it like I set up some rules for myself just to, to see if that would do something to my Nature connection. I was curious to see if I could sort of. Even though I am outside a lot and I feel like I am, I have a very strong connection with nature. I wanted to see if I could take it one step further and sort of to give you a background. This originated with sort of a nature quest that I saw that I considered taking. It was like a five day thing in nature. Five days, four nights in nature. And it was. You were supposed to fast and be in silence and not like do anything, but just sort of be in yourself and. Yeah, just to see what, you know, if you could get deeper, deeper in your connection with nature. And I ultimately, I balked at that because I was like, I don't think I can fast for five days. I mean that just, just. It was, yeah, that's what made me balk in the end. So I thought, okay, I'll do a light version. I will just do like 24 hours, you know, no food, no phone and no company. So essentially I'm doing like 24 hours by myself in the woods with no, no phone or, or, or food. And, and part of it is just with the food is I just want to keep it really simple, like no distractions. I don't. I just want to be able to grab my sleeping bag and my hammock and, and head out, essentially. And that's, that's how it's been. And the. No phone, obviously, no distractions. Right. Because even if I were to bring the phone and put it in airplane mode, I mean, we know that if the phone is there, it's still going to be like mentally. Yeah. It's still going to distract because there are studies showing that if a phone is just on the table, even if you don't touch it, then it's a distraction.
- [40:52]
Ginny Urch
So.
- [40:54]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
And then no company, obviously. I just wanted to be with myself because I think, I think it's. I think it can be really good for us to sometimes just. Yeah. Just dig a little deeper into our own psyche and, and our own thoughts. And so it's been very interesting. My family was working. Not my family. My, my sister and my mom were all like, oh, you're really gonna, like, can't you at least bring a phone? But no, because. And that's the thing, like today everybody perceives it as really like, risky to go out and camp. Like even in my nearby woods here without a phone. And I'm just thinking, well, 30 years ago nobody had a cell phone when they went camping. And it's no more dangerous today than it was Back then. And honestly, I feel perfectly safe out in these woods. And I have not felt scared or anything, even though I haven't had my phone with me. So it's been. It's been really interesting. I've done five months. I still have to do June, but I plan to do it all, all year. And then we'll see if. If I end up writing a book about it or not. I haven't decided yet. We'll see. But it's may. Maybe a book, maybe not. We'll see.
- [42:10]
Ginny Urch
Well, you never know what you're going to learn from situations like that.
- [42:13]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Right.
- [42:13]
Ginny Urch
Like, I would imagine that it's way easier to leave your phone in other circumstances. You know, people say, like they don't even leave their phone if they're going in to pay for gas, like that type of thing. So if you are able to leave it for 24 hours, I would imagine that helps in other situations of life.
- [42:27]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah.
- [42:28]
Ginny Urch
To not have it with you. I mean. Yeah. I'm sure you have a book's worth of things that you've learned about yourself. And that is one of the things that you do that is unique is, you know, as. As a mom, you're prioritizing adventure and getting outdoors for your kids, but you're also doing it for yourself, and it's very noticeable.
- [42:46]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. I do and I do truly enjoy it. And honestly, I have to thank my kids for getting back into it because it was when I had them that I realized that I had to do something. I had to consciously, I had to decide that we. We're going to be an outdoor family, because if I don't, then they're never going to have a childhood anything close to what I had. And yeah, I get. It's a different. It's a. Times are different and all that, but I. I really wanted them to have that sort of nature, connected childhood and. And that's what made me determined and. And I fell in love with Felix Lee all over again. I had sort of drifted away from it for a few years. You know, you get. Life gets busy and all that. But it really helped me when my children were little and, and even. Yeah. When my oldest daughter was a baby and, and you know, I had like, even. I haven't. I didn't write about this in the book and I haven't talked much about it, but I even had some. Some of that baby blues and it really helped me to just go outside and walk with her in the stroller every day that really. Just to get some daylight and fresh air. And so that after that, I was hooked. I didn't consider myself as particularly outdoorsy person after that. And I've. I will say I've done, yeah, far more hardcore adventures after I became a mom than I had before, I think. So motherhood can really have that effect on you, too. I mean, if you. If you wanted to, like, outdoor adventure doesn't stop when you become a mom. It can be the beginning of something new.
- [44:26]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, I did. And it really does enhance your life. Then what seems like at the beginning, maybe a hassle because you're trying to put mittens on little fingers in, you know, gloves, and you're trying to get them in all their stuff. And it's a lot of work. It very quickly turns around to be something that is wildly enhancing. And even once you get outside with them, you know, they've got all their stuff on. Wildly enhancing for your own life. So you say, we're going to be an outdoor family. And if. If people are looking for different ideas, I mean, you go through, obviously, the background of it. You go through this free, loose sleeve, all of that, but then you give all sorts of practical ideas. So families are looking for that. Like, you talked about having a sledding party, bring a helmet and something to sled on. You talk about eating as many meals as you can outside. You talk about these, you know, go outside before homework.
- [45:16]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah.
- [45:16]
Ginny Urch
Just these little simple things that can make you into an outdoor family. It's not that much. It doesn't take all, you know, all that much. It just. You have to set the time aside for it. And it can be these really, really simple ideas. And I think we can both say that when then you hit adulthood, or you're right on the cusp of adulthood, you look back and you are so thankful that you did it that way.
- [45:39]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Yeah. And hopefully my kids will have that. They will always have that little voice in their head that whispers, you know, it's. It's good for me to be outside, just like my parents did with me when I was little, because that's why I, you know, I could have did it with them. So. Yeah.
- [45:57]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. And you say I had only a short window of opportunity to pass down the way, the ways of my ancestors to my children. That's what we have, a short window of opportunity. And if they're not the ways of your ancestors, like you're passing on something, you pass on with Linda's ancestors, you know, the people who came before pass down the Swedish culture to these American kids. And I mean, it's really going to make a big difference. You talk about wild swimming. You talk about happiness and fulfillment. You talk about walking, just the power of walking, the. The dependability of nature and how it can change your life. I mean, there is so much in these books they have really, really enhanced for me. You talk about circadian rhythms. You talk about camping hacks, the soundscape, the serenity of snow. I mean, so, so many things and just even the practical. So how to dress for the weather. By experiencing the slight discomfort of inclement weather, our senses are heightened and we feel more alive. The beauty lies in the contrasts. And it's important to recognize that sometimes the greatest reward of being outside is actually coming back in to the comforts of home. And that's the truth. That's the truth. So the big joys can be found in simple things. Linda, what an honor to know you. Thank you for coming back for Time four. I cannot recommend your books more highly, and I hope you write another one.
- [47:17]
Linda Oakenson McGurk
Thank you so much, Ginny. It was great talking to you. Lowe's nose July 4th savings are worth celebrating right now. Get up to 40% off select major appliances and get an additional 10% off two or more select major appliances. Plus get three Scott's Naturescapes 1.5 cubic foot mulch bags for just $10. These deals are coming in hot. Lowe's we help you Save. Valid through 7, 9. Selection varies by location while supplies last. See Lowe's.com for more details. Excludes Alaska and Hawaii.
- [47:52]
Ginny Urch
At Energy Trust of Oregon, we understand that energy isn't just what happens when you flip a switch. It's what happens afterwards. It's a home that can provide both shelter and peace of mind. It's a business that can run more efficiently and keep their dream alive. And it's communities that can thrive today.
- [48:07]
Unknown
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- [48:09]
Ginny Urch
That's energy. And that's why we partner with local utility companies to help you save energy and lower costs.
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Unknown
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- [48:18]
Ginny Urch
Help power your life, visit energytrust.org.