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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 524: Durable Trades in a Brittle World | Rory Groves, The Family Economy
01:01:27
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- [00:02]
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- [00:30]
Ginni Urch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginni Urch. I am the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I met the coolest family at the Homestead Festival and also got a chance to get these books about a topic I'm really super interested in. And the author, Rory Groves, is here. Welcome, Rory.
- [00:47]
Rory Groves
Well, it's great to be here, Jenny. Thanks for having me.
- [00:50]
Ginni Urch
It was so cool to meet your family and, and to see your family, the inner workings of your family. You did this panel at the Homestead Festival where there was a bunch of people sitting up on the stage and your oldest son came up as a teenager, and I tell you what, he was the hit of the whole thing. People were cheering so loudly for him. So well spoken. And so the books I read of yours are so intriguing to me because they're so out of left field in terms of what I've ever thought about before, but also very enticing. So the books are called the Family Economy, Discovering the Family as It Was Designed to Work, and also Durable Trades. We are in this crazy time of life where things are rapidly changing. So this is a study into what trades have sort of stood the test of time. So, Rory, can you give us a little bit of your background because you were a software engineer and you have left that life.
- [01:41]
Rory Groves
That is correct, yes, we. I left computer engineering to become a farmer, which is a little bit of a backwards route because most of our society has done the opposite in the last couple hundred years. But for us, it was a progression. We moved to our farm in Southern Minnesota about 12, 13 years ago this summer. Over the course of learning to hobby farm, which is what I considered it to be at the time, there was just this yearning that began to develop. I started to become more interested in simple living, I guess is one way to put it. And then also I became a lot more interested in ways to involve my family and my work. And so it was kind of a backwards way. How we ended up with this book, Durable Trades, and with this writing on these topics and teaching on these topics. But it was very much a shift in environment, I guess, is what you could say, I mean, to kind of dovetail on what this podcast is about. It was really our family getting out into the environment, into nature, learning to live with the land, to steward the land. There was all these other elements at play that we just. We hadn't experienced before when we were living. We lived in Minneapolis, so we were, like, right in the heart of the city. And so over the course of time, that was one of the things that drew me in. And I ended up doing some research on this topic of the family economy. And that's how I ended up with these books.
- [03:07]
Ginni Urch
It's so interesting because there are cultural shifts that happen all the time, and. And I think that we are in one now. A lot of people talk about how they grew up without so much screen time. So I grew up without so much screen time. There was no Netflix and there was no YouTube. And so that was a really distinct time period in life that has ended. And that at some point there will be people that live that no longer. There's no longer anyone left that lived like that and have that history. And so you talk about that in terms of these family economies. And I would imagine that people could have never imagined in the future, everyone's gonna break off and go their own way. But you say there was a time when it was unthinkable that a job would separate families. And I had read something a while back, Rory, like, when we first had kids. And he was talking about how, like, when you have kids, that the life that you are living as a husband and a wife, it becomes so unbelievably different. And. And I really related to that. It was like I was working, my husband was working. We had a similar life. And then all of a sudden, we had this child. And his life continues on similarly to how it was before, but mine had changed so drastically. And I think that was hard for marriage. All of a sudden, you don't relate to each other. It's. It's a really big shock and a shift. And what you're saying is that the sort of historical norm is that everyone was together.
- [04:33]
Rory Groves
Yeah, the historical norm for all of human history up until the Industrial Revolution, that is exactly what it was. The family existed. It was its own enterprise. That's why that you had a family. I mean, you survived together, you produced what you needed together. The entire family was its own mini corporation, as to put it into modern parlance. But corporations didn't exist back then. Institutions were not nearly as so large. Governments were not so large. The families and the Small communities of families which we would known as settlements or villages. Those were the bedrock of society. And so when the families used to work together, one of the key things that we discovered was that there's an ancient proverb that says, where there is no vision, the people perish. And the idea there is that if you're not unified, and even if your family is not unified around some kind of common mission, you can't help but fragment and sort of break down in the ways of the relationships between siblings, for example, or parents, marriages, all these different aspects. And that you can extend that on into grandparents, grandchildren, you know, the generational kind of mentorship that used to be taken for granted. We see that in our society today. It's become more and more fragmented. And so when you're looking at those things, you're asking, or I was asking, like, why is this happening? Why is it that when I work on a farm, everything that we do, my family is together and we're unified in our mission and our purpose. My wife is maybe canning tomatoes that I'm harvesting in the garden, or the kids are helping us plant potatoes or harvest potatoes or squash potato bugs. There's all kinds of potato things you gotta do all the time. But the point is that the work itself was unifying our family and we had a common mission. Okay, so let's compare that with my job as a computer engineer, which is what I did professionally for, like, 25 years. I had software businesses. This was kind of my whole passion in life was software. But when on the farm, when I was on the farm in that position or kind of had that experience of being in the environment with my family, I noticed that when I had to go to my real job, my quote unquote real job, I was alone in an office, staring at a screen all day, and there was no way for my wife to join me. There was really nothing for my children to do. Even the skills that I have, I talk about that a little bit in the book. Even the skills that I have now as a computer programmer won't be transferable to my children because their paradigm will be completely different. The technology, all of that changes so fast. So this was kind of the beginning of, well, maybe it's our work that's actually at the core of dividing us. And maybe if we can find ways to come back together around shared work, we would find shared purpose, we would find stronger relationships, we'd find unified marriages, we'd find intergenerational mentorship again. And so that really became a much bigger topic. That at the beginning I was just trying to find something that was more family friendly.
- [07:46]
Ginni Urch
It's so intriguing to me, Rory, because this was a cultural norm and now it's completely out of the norm. In. In fact, it would be considered probably more abnormal. Hardly anybody knows about anybody who has this sort of family business. And additionally, even more than that, often I think it's looked down upon. So you have. And I, and I want to talk about this because you use the. The term family economy over family business. So we started thinking about this a little bit because we've seen it in, I guess, in a very short, like the Duck Dynasty people, right? So they, you know, they've got this family business, family economy. And you. And you see the generational blessings there, but you hardly see it. We've only really seen it in a couple places. Hardly anybody talks about it. But it was intriguing to us. You know, we're starting to think about, are there ways we're trying to incorporate our kids into what we do? And then also are there ways then to. To help pass parts of the business down to them? Is there something that they can join into? But there's also this thought of like, well, then they might be lazy. Are they going to be entit titled? Like, there just isn't enough information out there. Like, the Ramses are another example. Rachel Cruz, you know, a bunch of the family works for Ramsey, but there's only like these couple distinct ones, and that's it. And there's a lot of misconceptions. So start with this concept of the family economy that changes the whole thing. It's not. It doesn't have to be a family business. A family economy.
- [09:11]
Rory Groves
Yeah. Okay, good. So a family economy. The word economy comes from. From an ancient Greek word called oikonomia, which meant household law, or you might say order, order of the household. And all economy ever meant was the activity that went on within a family enterprise within a family household. That might include business, but it might include other things like education, it might include elder care, it might include worshiping together as a family. All of the activities are the economy of that family. And so when I'm using the term family economy, and I'm not the first one to use that term, but mostly in the modern era, it's considered to be ancient history. And that's why you don't see many examples of it. I received a note from somebody who said they had done a course in college where they studied Wendell Berry and the Southern Agrarians, and she wrote a thesis on the family economy. But she didn't know it was anything beyond theoretical until she heard us talk, talking about it. Because it really is. It's an ancient concept, but it's one of those concepts that were done away with when we industrialized. And we can get into that later. But to keep it simple, I just want to answer the question directly. So a family economy is all the activity that that family does. It might incorporate some business. Of course, economy is a huge part of what a family does. It's our livelihood. It's where we're going to spend most of our time. When our children are older, they're preparing to enter the economy. Right. So as a family, are there things that you can be doing to build your own economy so that your children have a place when they grow? You know, are you creating opportunities so they don't just have to go off into the world, but that maybe you and maybe some other families and maybe in your community, you have actual vocations? You know, this is how we all used to live. This was how. How we were sustainable generation after generation. If it helps, I might put it this way. A family business is about the business. And a lot of people will know what I mean by that. They kind of have, like, the family works for this business, but really the main purpose while you're together is to see the business succeed. And you might make hiring decisions about who's included in that business based on whether it helps the business. A family economy is the other way around. A family economy is about the family. And so you actually build the economy around the gifts of those family members. That's your business. Instead of trying to plug everyone into what's profitable, you're trying to see what will enhance the relationships in our family the most. And we're going to build an economy around that.
- [11:51]
Ginni Urch
Wow, this is exactly what I needed to read. Like, when I got it, I was like, this is sort of what we've been milling around the ideas about, because we've got five kids and the oldest is 17. And the interests are there, right? You already see the interest, you know, like, well, we've done 1,000 hours outside adventure trips and like, well, we've got one kid that would be great at leading those. But it almost. It almost feels in the society like that's what you're not supposed to do. Everyone should be an individual. Everyone should go off and do their own thing. Don't meddle too much with their destiny or whatever they're supposed to do. But yet you're hearing hints of it like, we've got this friend, Mary Heffernan. She's got a farm called Five Mary's Farm. All her daughters are named Mary, and her name is Mary. So there's five of them. But she would talk about how, you know, we've got this cattle business, but that would never sustain. If the girl wanted to work, they wouldn't sustain. So we've got this entrepreneurship program, and we're doing home goods, and we're. And she specifically said the purpose of it was so that if they needed a place to land, there would be something there for them. But I don't really hear anybody talking about this. And in fact, like I said, some people might say, well, aren't you squashing their individual drive?
- [13:03]
Rory Groves
Well, sure. When you. Whenever the word individual comes up, you have to understand that it's a philosophy that came out of childless prognosticators about 500 years ago during the Great Enlightenment. And their entire ideology is that uninhibited individual pursuits, disregarding the community, the family, and any other social expectations. The individual was the highest priority and defined what was morally right and true, and that we would all find happiness as a society if only everybody could have all their individual desires fulfilled. So we've been living under the rubric of that mentality for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's the water we swim in. Individualism is the God we serve in this culture. And so anything that approaches some kind of encumbrances on the idea that maybe mom and dad have an idea of what Junior's future could look like, and maybe they can help steer him into that, they'll say, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're impeding on Junior's individuality. He needs to decide that for himself. You can't get in the way of it. We need to get experts involved who studied this problem. We need to put him on a certain career track. He needs a pick from one of the 30,000 college majors and so on and so forth. And so it's not that Junior can't choose. Obviously, all of our children become adults. They get to live their own lives. The question is, are you creating options for them if they want to stay and build family cohesion and unity across the generations? That's what we've given up. Individuality came at the price of relationships. We have destroyed the actual safety net that undergirds our society, our way of life, our democracy. I mean, you go back to the Founding Fathers. They did not envision an America of individualists. They envisioned an America of strong communities of people who worked the land of strong families of strong morals. That was the only way this experiment was ever going to work. And we've left that. And that's why the experiment's failing Now.
- [15:07]
Ginni Urch
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Ginni Urch
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- [18:57]
Ginni Urch
I love it. I mean can we be creating in different ways? And you talk through your story. It started with a tomato plant. So this is not necessarily something that has to be life shattering or earth moving at the moment. But can you start to think about my, my first, I guess foray into it was with John Holt who said kids should be able to see work done, like real work from start to finish. Can we give them a glimpse? And that started getting our wheel spinning of like gosh, are we siphoning them off? And you talk about, you know, we've made this world where it's like we do our thing and we just gotta try and figure out how to keep the kids occupied. And that's where all the screen use is coming in and everyone's stressed out and it just seems to be antithetical to how we're supposed to be living. You write shared productive labor. This Is so good. Shared productive labor was the driving force of family unity. That the farm makes the family and that. That's a big thing that we've lost. So something to think about, right? We talk about promise versus peril. Andy Crouch talks about that. A lot of people do. What did we lose with this industrialization? So can you talk about then this was marketed. You talk about how it was marketed to go from basically producers to consumers and pulling. And women. A lot of women pulling them away from the home. It was a big marketing machine. Ad campaigns.
- [20:15]
Rory Groves
Oh, yeah, definitely. That was all part and parcel. So. So you have. So I already kind of alluded to this shift in individualist mindset away from a communitarian mindset. That happened and that happened a long time before industrialism. Industrialism is downstream from that. The idea that families would be separated into separate factories was unconscionable for most of human history. It couldn't even be conceived of, because why would you do that? The family was the factory. It didn't make any sense. So it took a long time of breaking down that mentality. One little story is that when they first started to open up the textile mills in New England, what they found is that they couldn't get, like individual family members to leave their families to work in the mills. So they would have what was known as family mills. So they'd hire entire families, they'd leave the farm, they'd come work in the mills. Mother, father, the children, they all had different jobs for these families. And they would work the mill as a family business. It's so crazy. But that was the mentality back in like 1790s or about that time period is nobody would separate for a paycheck. That was unheard of. It took time. Eventually what happened is they discovered, as is, the basis of industrialism is that if you break everything down into its constituent components, you can mass produce much faster. And you have material abundance. You have incredible material abundance. They increased the output of cloth in New England over one generation, a thousand fold. So you saw all kinds of prices coming down. You saw all kinds of commodities becoming cheaper things that people could afford to live better materially. They were affording to live better. But what was happening the whole time is they were leaving their families to go mass produce and they were breaking down the relationships generation by generation. Until we get to a point today, which is really interesting to hear you kind of the way you're phrasing this is that today we can't think of even having a family as an economy. What does that mean? That's preposterous. Who would do something like that? Why bother? We have everything we need, you know?
- [22:22]
Ginni Urch
Gosh, but don't you think. What if that happens to kids going outside?
- [22:25]
Rory Groves
Yeah.
- [22:26]
Ginni Urch
I mean, that's what you think. You're like, okay, 200 years down the road, no one's going to remember that there was a time when. When people didn't have air conditioning and there wasn't TV available all the time. They'd be like, well, why? Why would you do that? You can just be inside. You can be on screens all day, like all the Ray Kurzweil stuff. Right. You know, so it is really interesting sometimes how far you can get from historical cultural norms. That's why I love what you're doing, because then it makes you think, well, if that was normal, at some point, can I bring that back?
- [22:52]
Rory Groves
Exactly.
- [22:53]
Ginni Urch
What are some ways that I could. And the advertising was so interesting to me, Rory, because you wrote the advertising campaigns, began denigrating domestic duties and offering powerful financial incentives to lure daughters away from home, farm work, to work in factories. The labor of the mills is considered much more honorable than the labor of domestic life. And, you know, Self magazine just came out with an article, like, a couple weeks ago, and it was like, these women are getting sent back to the kitchen, you know, and it was the same ad campaign, the same ad trying to lure people away. Denigrating domestic duties.
- [23:29]
Rory Groves
Yeah. And that. That's the thing that you just have to understand. If you choose this way, you're going to be setting yourself up against some very powerful opponents. It is against the grain to try to build a family economy in this day and age. But. But if you have a conviction about it, which is what something that we do have, we developed this. We saw this as really solving so many of the problems that we were seeing, not just in our own family, but in other families as well, is the split vision, the split directions between husbands and wives and children and siblings not growing up with that kind of generational bonds that they should have. And so if you have a conviction, you can stand up against just about anything the world wants to throw at you. But one of the things that they will not like is they will not like husbands and wives yoking up for the same mission. They will not like parents keeping their children at home to homeschool, because they want conformity to the industrial system. That's what guarantees the individuality, the unaccountability, the autonomy. And that is really. It's a separate religion. If you Want to get right into it. It's got its own creeds and it's got its own rules and redemptions and in sin and forgiveness. So it's not the default in our society. You take this project on knowing that it's probably going to be an uphill battle. But my children, my grandchildren, my great grandchildren will see the benefits of this far beyond any kind of materialistic approach of just saving up money and retiring to Florida or whatever. You know, insert your favorite recreational activity here.
- [25:06]
Ginni Urch
It's a lot to think of. And I think that we have the conviction too. And actually it even makes me think about, like we've always talked about, gosh, it would be great if we could grow our business in a way that we could really start to hire other people. But then wouldn't it be neat if you could like, hire a family unit? Like the same thing? Like the people that came to the mill.
- [25:23]
Rory Groves
Same. We think the same thing all the time. Yes. Wow.
- [25:26]
Ginni Urch
Oh, it's so interesting. Okay. The books are called Durable Trades and the Family Economy. Here's something that you talk about. I never heard of. So you're talking about how in the 1800s, they knew how many distinct occupations there were. There were 77. Zero. 70 distinct occupations in the United States today. Well, actually in 2000, so 25 years ago, there are a 31,000. Approximately 31,000. So we go from 70 occupations to 31,000. Now, logically, I think people would go, great, great. More occupations, more choice for the individual. I'm not limited by these 70 things, but what talk about, and I. I didn't know about this, is the more specialized things get, the less stable they are. Can you explain that?
- [26:11]
Rory Groves
Yeah, less stable and less family centric. So the brittleness of modern society. So those 10, those 30,000 jobs, I mean, it's not like they grew from 70 to a thousand to 10,000 to 30,000. I mean, almost none of the jobs that were created during the Industrial revolution are still around. They were created and destroyed decades later. You know, you have everything from like switchboard operators. Remember that? That used to be a huge job. People like human beings doing. Switchboard operators. You had lamplighters, you had bowling pin setters, you had all these different things that have bowling pins that. So these are all jobs. There's thousands, and we still do that by the hundreds and thousands every year there's new jobs that are created and then there's jobs that are destroyed. It's this constant pursuit of specialization. Now we've got AI on the horizon. It's not on the horizon, it's here. And we're going to be watching a bloodbath in all white collar professions. And I'm speaking as someone who has studied this topic very carefully for a long time. This is my industry and it's going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people who did everything they were told. They were told to get good grades, get a good college with a good job when you graduate, work really hard and work your way up the ladder. All these things where a robot's going to be able to come in and take over those functions quite quickly by comparison, how long it takes a human being to get that kind of education and to work their way up that ladder. So we're going to be in this situation in the very near future and it's already starting where it's the people who know how to build stuff and grow stuff and make stuff and fix stuff that are actually going to be the ones that. It's the dirty, dead end jobs, as I mentioned call it in the book. It's the blue collar work, it's the working with your hands that's going to be the real valuable skill sets. So all of these jobs, which is the irony of it is all those jobs were around in the 1790s, those 70 jobs, those are all like working with the land or working with your own food, or working with producing clothing or just some basic human functions. Those are the durable trades. They'll still be around through the robotic revolution. But all of these specialized jobs are extremely unstable, especially in computers, which is what my whole career was in. You know, anything that I had to learn was obsolete within a couple of months. So this is kind of the society that we're in right now and we have to pay attention to a lot of these things, is that specialization is not a guarantee of anything. In fact, it probably makes you more susceptible to turnover in the job market.
- [28:49]
Ginni Urch
What you talked about, which makes sense is it's the higher paid jobs that are going to end up being the target for automation, which makes sense. There was one for Klarma, I don't even know what company that is, but they were able to offload all of their customer service and it said it saved them something like $50 million a year. So it's like, I don't, where's that money going toward who, who gets that money? But also it's, it's these jobs, of course, it's like if you're a business owner and you could offload your most expensive work that's what you're going to do. And so this is a really stressful time. It's so it's a great time to be thinking about your family economy. I think it will give you a lot more peace for your children. So for us, you know, if we could get to a spot where our kids can assimilate into our business, I don't have to have quite so much fear over their future. So there's just a lot of things going on there. And like we said at the beginning, you started with a tomato plant. There's a lot of options here. One of the things you talked about too was that some of these durable trades in the past, people could do a lot of them.
- [29:49]
Rory Groves
Yes.
- [29:49]
Ginni Urch
So maybe you were a midwife, but also you had a garden and also you baked bread and you sold it to your neighbors.
- [29:55]
Rory Groves
Yes.
- [29:56]
Ginni Urch
So a lot of that, which is really exciting and cool to have your hands in a lot of pots and, and do a lot of different things. But I would love for you to explain. You have this incredible, like, it makes it make so much sense. It's this upside down triangle and it's showing there's like four types of jobs. It's like primary, secondary, tertiary and quad. Something. I never even heard the word.
- [30:17]
Rory Groves
Yeah, very good. You've got it all down.
- [30:18]
Ginni Urch
Okay. Basically. But we're upside down. It's like we're. There's too many of the knowledge workers and not enough people who are making.
- [30:24]
Rory Groves
Exactly.
- [30:25]
Ginni Urch
Growing food.
- [30:26]
Rory Groves
Exactly.
- [30:27]
Ginni Urch
And that makes things unstable.
- [30:28]
Rory Groves
So traditionally, you know, family economy. This is another mentality that we've lost is that families work multiple overlapping trades. The butcher was also a farmer, and sometimes the minister was also a farmer. And sometimes the minister was also the butcher and the farmer. I mean, there's, there's all these examples. If you go back to colonial America, it's not that hard to find the family's work. Were busy in many, many different things. Oh, one book I love, by the way is Farmer Boy by Laura Ingalls Wilder. Read that book and see all the variety of things that that one family was involved with to kind of get an idea of what a family economy is, because it's not just one thing. People will get stuck when they begin to think about family economy because they like the idea. But they can't imagine replacing their income by, you know, selling eggs or baking bread, you know, and they probably won't. I mean, there's, there's a whole trade off of a lot of different things happening. But the idea is not that you're going to just replace your income with one family business. You're going to create multiple family businesses and your children are going to create businesses when they begin to mature. And they be, and I mean when I say mature, I mean like 12, 13 years old. They're going to start their own businesses. You're going to help them with that and that's going to be part of your family economy. So getting to the question about the pyramid is when we looked at our pre industrial society. There's four basic categories of labor that every society has. There is the primary sector, which is things like mining and agriculture and forestry. They're directly connected with the earth. Then there's the manufacturing sector, which takes the raw material and turns it into something useful. Then there's the service sector which is maybe involved with selling or maybe it's involved with hospitality or serving the other sectors. And then in a late stage civilization you have what's called the quaternary. This is usually the tip of the pyramid. So if you envision this as a broad base of primary sector workers involved in agriculture, let's just use America for an example. So back around the turn of the century, say 1900, we had about 50% of the nation was involved in agriculture, just agriculture. And back at the founding it was like 90%. So I mean almost everyone's involved in this primary sector, directly connected. And then above that you have manufacturing. So you maybe have like 70% at the bottom. Then maybe you have 20% above that, maybe have 10% in service. And you had almost no quaternary back, you know, back in the two, 300 years ago. Well today if you look at those numbers and where the jobs are, it's upside down. You have 2% of the population is involved in agriculture. 2%, okay, we went from 90% down to 2%. And then above that you have manufacturing. And that's somewhere around like 10%. It's very, very low. I mean most of our manufacturing has been offshored. Then you get into service sector and this is where like 70% of the society is involved, involved. Right now most chances are that people listening to this, their family or their income is based in some kind of service sector job or most of people they know are involved in service sector. And then at the top, which is about another 10% in our culture or in America is the quaternary. These are the knowledge workers, this is the it and the scientists, and maybe some of the upper level educators and things like that. So if you, if you chart that out percentage wise, what you see is an inverted pyramid. It's upside down. And she's going to hold that up on the screen.
- [34:02]
Ginni Urch
Well, yeah, it's so unstable looking.
- [34:04]
Rory Groves
That's the point.
- [34:05]
Ginni Urch
It's like it's about to tip.
- [34:07]
Rory Groves
Yeah. So it's unstable because the heavier parts of society are relying on a minuscule proportion of our population. You know, 98% of us are relying on farmers, 2% of the farmers to feed us. And if we ever went through like a major crisis. You know, the thing about efficiency, specialization, industrialism is it works very well at increasing output. Nobody's arguing the material output has been extraordinary the last 200 years, but it does that at the expense of stability. So you have one little hiccup in that supply chain and poof, all the toilet paper is gone. Or a boat gets stuck in a canal somewhere and then all of a sudden the prices of all these commodities are going through the roof because they have a boat stuck in a canal somewhere. Those are symptoms of over specialization where there's too much efficiency in the chain. And if any link in that chain breaks, then the whole thing comes apart. So what our forebears used to have was a very stable system. If there were hiccups in the chain, for example, it didn't matter. The next community over produced all the food they needed. There weren't these kinds of shortages. Now they did have other challenges. They had medical challenges, they had different kinds of agricultural technologies that hadn't been invented yet. I'm not saying that life was cake, but I'm just saying they were way more stable than we are today.
- [35:29]
Ginni Urch
It's like what you talk about with the Great Depression. My grandma lived through the Great Depression, didn't really know what was happening because they had this stable systems.
- [35:37]
Rory Groves
Exactly.
- [35:38]
Ginni Urch
Societies collapsed not because of external pressures forced upon them, but because of increasing levels of complexity from within. So on the surface, 30,000 job opportunities, job types, it seems better than 70. But when you really look into it, it'd be a great thing to look at with your kids. I think this would be a wonderful homeschool curriculum for the coming school year. You can go through these durable trade jobs and you have, with each one, you have all of these extra resources. So it's like, what's it like? What's the life of a carpenter? You know, and what an interesting thing to start to explore those different types of things with your kids.
- [36:11]
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- [38:20]
Ginni Urch
And even the thought that and I can't find it in my notes, but I kind of loved it. You were talking about how, you know, everyone was doing a bunch of different things at some point. Like the pastor also had a farm and so did the, you know, like we talked about earlier, so did the midwife and so everyone was sort of on a level playing field. Like, everyone is working with nature. Everyone is. I can't find it in my notes, but I just loved it. And I thought that's a big thing we've lost, too, is that sort of camaraderie and that you relate, you know, it's not like everyone's. You know what, there's 31,000 types of jobs, so how do you relate to what that person's doing? But if everyone has this commonality of they grow a garden and you're dealing with potato bugs or whatever, then there's something that you come together over. So I really like that part. There's so much to think about within these two books. Like, a lot of things just to start talking about, Talk about over the dinner table. I mean, they're wonderful. Okay, so let's talk about this then. The Durable Trades. So here's what you say. It is said that the average person will work seven careers in his lifetime, which means he switches careers about every five to seven years. That's awful. I mean, who wants to do that, right? Everybody wants a job they can have for 30 years and then go to Florida. Okay. But the point is, is that this is not by choice. So all of these layoffs that just happened at Klarma and all of these other layoffs, it's, you know, Google just laid off 8,000 employees. This isn't what anybody is wanting. They wanted a lifelong career. It's being forced on them. The average worker will change jobs every two and a half years. This is really stressful. So what you do is you go through and it just seems like something an engineer would do. And you have percentages of all of these jobs based off of how resilient they are, the historical components. So it reminded me of school, where it was like, your tests are 10% of your grade and your homework is 25% of your grade. Like, I remember having to do all those calculations. Talk to us about how you made the calculations and kind of ranked these durable trades.
- [40:24]
Rory Groves
Yeah, good. So what happened when I wrote that book, Durable Trades, it didn't actually start out as a book. I was genuinely concerned for our future, my future career, what my children would do, and looking for something more stable because I was just so tired of the computer industry.
- [40:42]
Ginni Urch
And this is back before AI was as prevalent as it is now, because this book came out in 2020, so that means you probably were looking into it in 2018. You were seeing the writing on the wall, though, already.
- [40:56]
Rory Groves
Yeah. So it was Actually, it actually was slowed down in the publishing because of the pandemic, but it was actually signed over for publication in early 2020 before the pandemic struck. I actually have an author's note in the beginning of that kind of referencing that because it hadn't happened yet. We didn't know where this was going. But. Yeah, but so my just, just the instability of the modern workforce and me asking the question, do I want to keep doing this for another 20 years or do I want to build something that's going to last? You know the thing, Ginny, that was really compelling to me is you'd start doing some historical research and you'd see that jobs didn't just last five years or seven years and layoffs and obsolescence and all these things. They would last like an entire lifetime and then they pass it on to their children and then their children would run that smithy for their entire lifetime. And then their grandchildren would run this and this would go on generation after generation. And every generation is like exponentially increasing in their, what would I say? Just kind of their like sovereignty, their power, their impact. And it's like in our world it's. Every generation starts over from scratch and nothing the children grow up with, like nothing the parents spend their entire lives doing, like, is transferred to the children. What is that? Why do the children always have to start over from scratch every generation? And so this was kind of driving me is not only just starting over every generation, but every couple of years. I didn't want to do that anymore. I wanted to build something that was going to be around for a while. And if I was going to do that, I had to look at the historical precedent because that was the only way to know what was most likely to be around, you know, 100 years from now. So when I came up with those scores that you're talking about in the book, there were. I. I started putting together a spreadsheet again. Yep, computer nerd, totally nerding out on all this stuff. But I had to come up with some non subjective way, way to rank these 70 professions. It actually turned out to be 61 professions that existed at the founding of our country and are still around today. That's how I came up with this list for durable traits. And then I wanted to rank them because for me the whole point of doing this at all was that I wanted to know what was the most stable and the most family centered. Those are the two things to me that, that really drove me if I'm going to pick another Career direction altogether. And there are a lot of professions in the book that are historical, but they've changed so much. They're very much not like what they originally were and they may not be as family friendly or focused. So that was the reason for the ranking. I just wanted to put a number score down against each one. And I had a whole other list of the book goes into it in the appendix of how I came up with the scoring mechanism. But it does give me a way to rank things from 1 to 61.
- [43:41]
Ginni Urch
I love it. I think it's incredible. Historical stability 20% Resilience 15% Family Centeredness 35% Income 20% Ease of entry 10 and at the end of each chapter. So I mean this starts off with shepherd. That's the most historically durable trade. You talk about farming. Farming is a trade upon which all others depend. You said even the astrophysicist has to eat or what? Whatever the theoretical astrophysicist has to eat. You're talking about one of the top ones was a midwife.
- [44:09]
Rory Groves
Yeah.
- [44:10]
Ginni Urch
Midwives are making a comeback. There are gardeners, over 100,000 gardening related businesses today. A cook. Everybody eats, but not everybody cooks. Americans currently spend 44 of their food budget on dining out. 44. A 50 increase over the previous generation. Bakers possess a distinctive staying power. So you're going through all these careers and like I said, at the end of each chapter there's all these additional resources. You want to be a carpenter. You're talking about the Back to Eden documentary, which is. Was really, that was really transformative. I love that documentary. Back to Eden.
- [44:45]
Rory Groves
Yeah, same me too.
- [44:46]
Ginni Urch
I mean, such a good one. Embalmer.
- [44:49]
Rory Groves
Yeah, that's true. Not going anywhere.
- [44:51]
Ginni Urch
Yes. Funeral services are highly resilient. Musician, barber. You can't get a haircut online. So you know, you're going through all of these different careers. You pick it up. I mean it's, it's needed. You need to be talking about this as a family so that you know, our kids are not caught unaware. But one of the things that you talk about is because the money piece is like, oh, you know, this makes this much or you know, approximately. But you say if you're making a lot of your own stuff, the money might not matter as much.
- [45:19]
Rory Groves
Oh yeah. This is the single biggest point I hope I can get across. We justify in our current society, everything is justified based on the profitability of the thing, whatever that is. The price is what justifies. And family economy is totally different. We're saying it's the relationship that justifies this activity? Does it improve the health of our family? Does it improve the health of our communities and our generations? Are we passing the faith on? You know, if we have those convictions to our children, what could be more eternal and more important than that? It's not just, does it make a lot of money? Now I get it, you got to pay bills. I'm not saying that. That it doesn't come into play, but that's why it's 20% of the overall goal. We need to look at the much broader picture when it comes to vocations. And let's see, where were we going with that?
- [46:08]
Ginni Urch
So, well, your bills might go down. And that's the point. It's like, if you make your things, this is what people used to do, right? You're like, they didn't throw everything out. They passed down furniture they made. It was well constructed. And you wrote, wealth was in the barn, it was in the fields, it was in the accumulated knowledge of generations. By contrast, paper currency and imported goods are not the surest forms of wealth.
- [46:31]
Rory Groves
Yes, that's what they all found out during the Great Depression. And yeah, to your point, let's say you take a pay cut. That's like 50%. And you're like, oh, my word, how in the world would I possibly. But if that 50% includes producing your own food, raising your own animals, being able to build and repair things that you would have hired out formerly, maybe you're not paying for daycare or private schools or one less car or. Yeah, less garb, your expenses come down commensurately. And that's the whole point when you're talking about the advertising industry before. The point of the entire society, the industrial society, is to get us to buy, buy, buy, become dependent, earn a paycheck, and then spend it rather than produce for ourselves. So this idea of becoming a productive household is central and critical to the family economy because you're producing the things that you need. And that's always been the point in the first place.
- [47:24]
Ginni Urch
Yes. And the point like you talk about is passing on your faith. You do talk about that. You say, scripture makes it clear that work is not solely about making stuff. It's not solely about making money and buying more things. It's also about where you're discipling your kids and building these relationships. So it's just a lot to think about. And in that vein, you homeschool, we homeschool. It's the best decision we've ever made. Our oldest turned 17 last week, and we really I'm very thankful to have read these books. They are enlarging our vision. We're sort of starting, like, tinkering in that path, but not really having a lot of good information and also struggling with the. Is this wrong? You know, is this weird? Is it odd, you know, to sort of be enlarging our tent so that there's room if the kids want to join in? It seems right, but then, you know, it's not what other people are doing. You see just a couple glimpses of people who are doing it well, and you're like, well, that seems like a pretty cool thing. So anyway, the books are coming at a great time for our family. When you talk about home education, one of the things that you wrote about, and I thought this was a big one, you said it like it is. Some people are afraid. So there's a lot of things going on. Right. And we've had friends that say your road to homeschool often starts long before you have children. You know, if you've got a lot of college debt, if you are used to, you know, living in a certain way, it might impede. You might have to make some really big lifestyle choices to make it work. But one. One of the things, and you bring it up in the book, is you say a fear of extended time with your own children.
- [48:58]
Sponsor/Advertiser
Talk to us about that.
- [49:00]
Rory Groves
Well, again, let's come back to the idea of the individualist culture that we live in. We've been bombarded with messaging our entire lives that says personal fulfillment is the highest ideal, and anything that gets in the way of that is a nuisance. So we have things like, you don't need quantity time with your family. You need quality time. You know, we have these little ridiculous proverbs of modern society, which is, it's ridiculous because you can't have quality time if you don't have quantity time. But there's all these justifications for keeping even the closest ones that should have the most access and the most attention to us, but keeping them at bay. We have me time. We have man caves. We have all these just these different excuses, but really, it's a bunch of garbage. The family and the relationships that you have that are closest to you are the source of fulfillment in your life. If you will give them the attention they deserve, if you will pour yourself out on behalf of your children, you will net a far greater reward than any kind of personal career ambition is going to deliver. And I've talked to so many people who have walked down that road and have come up with the same answer, unfortunately, after losing their families, after ruining their marriages. So the family economy is really at the heart of a call for families to come back together again, to get a vision together as a family, to do what makes you unique. That's what's so exciting about a family economy, because no two are going to be the same for all the reasons we just discussed. Every family is unique and it's going to. Yours is going to look very different than mine. But if the goal is building relationships, it is an eternal value. It will not. It's. This is what Jesus talked about. Treasures in heaven do not store up what moth and rust can destroy with these. Break in and steal, but store for yourself treasures in heaven. But you know, this is the thing. Relationships are the only thing that are eternal. This is the only thing that really matters in the long run. And it also in the short run brings us the fulfillment. So when we talk about, you know, homeschooling and the resistance to that, if you don't have a strong relationship with your children, that can be a very scary notion, is how am I going to sit at home in a room with them all day long? Like, this is going to drive me crazy, right? But that is the world's messaging because it's, yeah, it probably is going to push your buttons, but it's actually the very thing that is going to save you and your family from destruction. Why are you doing all of this in the first place? Just to see your kids go off and scatter to the world? And all the prayer requests we receive of families whose children or adult children are estranged from them or they're praying for them to rejoin the faith. There's different kinds of things like that. That all happens in the home when they're young, you know, it's too late after they've grown and left the home. So if you will leverage yourself, especially I tell especially fathers and especially in the first place, 10 years of the children's lives, leverage everything you have to connect with them on a heart level. And for us, homeschooling is non negotiable because that's thousands and thousands of hours every year with our children that we get to have a relationship with them and we get to guide them and steer them and be with them and we wouldn't have it any other way. And I'm pretty sure that's the case with most of the families who have entered into homeschooling is that once you start, it's really difficult to consider any other way of life.
- [52:25]
Ginni Urch
And Maybe if you're afraid of extended time with your children, it's because they, the system has changed them.
- [52:30]
Rory Groves
Yeah.
- [52:31]
Ginni Urch
And when they come home, it's just different. It's different. They're enjoyable to be around. If anyone could have sat and listened to Ivor sit up on that panel, he'd be like, well, who wouldn't want to be around that kid? He's so intelligent and so interesting to talk to. And you talk about how then in these years you start to notice the kids strengths, interests and personalities. You write, in times past, families did not wait until a child was 18 before career considerations came into view. Historically, the household economy served as the primary on ramp to life and career. Now there is no on ramp.
- [53:07]
Rory Groves
Yeah, right. Well, or the on ramp is they're dumped out at 18 and say, Pick a major. It's like, well, this is a terrible way to do that. It's expensive and it's often wrong because children don't always know what they want to do. So as parents, you're looking at, you know, and I tell people the, by the age of seven, you should be looking very intently at potential careers for your children at the age of seven. Why? Why is that? Well, because a lot of their talents and their dispositions begin to manifest by that age and you kind of have a sense of what they're into. And then you, as a parent, you're providing the opportunities for them to experience some kind of work in that field. Now, it's not like, like you're not getting them a job at Burger King, but like, let's say my son Alden showed a real keen interest in blacksmithing. We had a fair at our property and we had a blacksmith there showing how he does stuff. And I just observed that one weekend how fascinated my son Alden wasn't that. And so I got him a private lesson and we tried that out. And then for his seventh birthday, he got an anvil. And it's something that's like he's kind of had a casual interest in. He's a little young to be able to, to handle the kind of tooling that's needed. But it is one course that I'm watching with him, among several others that I'm watching. And so these are things that as parents, when you're with your children, you're constantly watching them. You're discerning what gifts they have and then you're finding them mentors. If you yourself don't have the expertise in a given topic, then you're trying to find mentors well, who can help my son learn how to work with wood with hand tools, for example, or who can teach them how to raise sheep. That was Ivor. And then you're plugging them in with other people that, that can provide not just the expertise or just the skill. Because this is one of the things that is a breakdown in the modern education system is that we're very focused on transferring skills but not culture. Well, or they're transferring the wrong culture. And what I mean by that is with a mentor comes some kind of system of ethics, some kind of character. Hopefully you're finding someone with character to teach your children some kind of faith and they're reinforcing not just the skill set, but how to work with integrity, how to deal with customers, you know, and have integrity. And those are the things that you, that a school won't teach that because it's morality and they won't touch that with a ten foot pole. But when you as a parent are finding educational opportunities, it's not just academics. As you're looking at work opportunities with mentors and then you begin to surround with. Now it's harder. I'll also caveat that and say it's harder right now to do that. A lot of we've broken that mentorship apprenticeship model in order to have mass schooling, public schooling. So it takes a lot more effort as a parent to find people who are willing to take your kids in. But if you're diligent and you're persistent at that, you will find people that want to teach, that are more than willing to teach. We actually dropped Ivor off for a whole month with a family who did professional woodworking. They built furniture and he spent an entire month, he lived with them. He worked eight hours a day in the shop. He went along with customer sales visits and also customer deliveries. He got to learn the business and he was 13 years old and it was like one of the best experiences of his life. So anyway, it's a very creative way to do things, but you're starting young and then you're exposing your children to a lot of different experiences so that by the time they're 14, 15, 16, they have a pretty good direction dialed in and they're not beginning to guess what they might want to do when they're 18 and spending whatever $40,000 a year to figure that out.
- [56:44]
Ginni Urch
Yeah, 13 years old. And if someone can't really wrap their head around that, I think the blessing is that you have all these years together when you're homeschooling. So you don't feel as frantic about them going off into the world and trying different things because you've had so much time together. It really is a difference. I don't feel. You feel very excited and, you know, they're spreading their wings and what an opportunity. We noticed when our kids were around 8, I had read this John Taylor Gatto book where he said, there's millions of things of value to study. Why are we just taking this one narrow slice? So then I started to ask the kids, what are you interested in? And by 8, I mean, they all had distinct things. This one wants to write comic books or that one's like a storyteller, you know, and this one was interested in farming. And God provided. God sure provided because one was interested in farming. And we had a friend that was opening up a CSA and we could come every Wednesday and join in. And the other one was interested in rocks. And we joined this geology club. And there's all these adults that are super interested who knew in rocks and, you know, and it's there, you know, I can find my prayer thing about it was like this, what am I going to do with this? This kid? And boy, did the answers come. And I notice it even when we go to these different conferences. Like, we met at the Homestead Festival, but when we've set up at different booths at different things, some of the kids will come up and, like, organize my stickers. And they're like, that kid is like 7. And already showing that they have a certain kind of mind. And you can see it right away. And then it's just a really different way of looking at it. Like, instead of just being like, well, they're on their own. They're, you know, individual, and off they go. I hope they figure it out. So it's a different, I guess, type of investment, and you're giving people the.
- [58:26]
Rory Groves
Permission to do it or just defaulting to whatever the expert says must be right, which is not true. The credentialed professional has nothing to do with loving your children. It's really. It's the love in the family is the key distinction. And there's many wonderful teachers and counselors out there. I'm not trying to disparage them, but none of them love your. Your children like you do. You have everything you need at home to steer your children into a meaningful future and to train them. And experts can come into play along the way, but never delegate that. Never that that role belongs to the parents to figure those kinds of things out. Wow.
- [59:06]
Ginni Urch
Wow. What books I mean, they came at the time when we needed them. They are called durable trades. Family centered economies that have stood the test of time. Read it. I think it should be your 2025, 2026 homeschool book of the year. Go through a different trade every week and your kids will learn so much. You can expose them. The other one, it's in. This one's really short. You can read it in a day. It's called the Family Economy. Discovering the Family as it was designed to work. You also have your newsletter that goes out to over 3,000 families, all 50 states, five continents. I'll make sure. I'll put the links in there. And you host events on your property. So I'll make sure it's gatherandgrow us.
- [59:41]
Rory Groves
That's right.
- [59:41]
Ginni Urch
So everybody can go and check those out. Lots of opportunities there. You started with a tomato plant. Read the story. I mean, if you want to look at someone who actually did it, going from being a computer scientist and leaving that field because of a tomato plant and, you know, ended up ending up really impacting people so much with all the work you're doing. So, Rory, what an honor. I'm so glad to have met you and Rebecca and your wonderful kids. It's so cool. We always end with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
- [60:14]
Rory Groves
Oh, easy. We used to live across the street. Just behind our neighborhood was a park reserve. And I used to go out there and just spend hours and hours and hours exploring and adventuring and mock fighting with bad monsters and all kinds of creatures with my friends and just imagining a bigger life. Life. So.
- [60:36]
Ginni Urch
And that's why you're still doing.
- [60:38]
Rory Groves
That's what. I guess what we're doing.
- [60:40]
Ginni Urch
A bigger life. I love that this has been such an honor. Thank you for being here.
- [60:44]
Rory Groves
Thank you so much for having us.
- [60:48]
Energy Trust of Oregon Representative
At Energy Trust of Oregon, we understand that energy isn't just what happens when you flip a switch. It's what happens afterwards. It's a home that can provide both shelter and peace of mind. It's a business that can run more efficiently.
- [61:00]
Ginni Urch
Efficiently.
- [61:01]
Energy Trust of Oregon Representative
And keep their dream alive. And it's communities that can thrive today and flourish tomorrow. That's energy. And that's why we partner with local utility companies to help you save energy and lower costs. For cash incentives and resources that can help power your life, visit energytrust.org you.
- [61:19]
Indeed Representative
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