← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 533: How to Reclaim the Freedom of Childhood and the Joy of Family | Justin Whitmel Earley, The Big Mess
00:49:48
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- [00:00]
Ginny Urch
The McDonald's Snack Wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have a favorite guest back for the third time. The third time. Third time's a charm. Justin Whitmill, early.
- [00:27]
Justin Whitmill
This is a trifecta.
- [00:28]
Ginny Urch
Now it is. Welcome back.
- [00:30]
Justin Whitmill
Thank you so much, Jenny. It is a joy to be back. And favorite guest. I don't know if you mean it, but it means a lot to me.
- [00:36]
Ginny Urch
No, it is. People love your episodes. And what's really cool is sometimes, you know, you have these touch points, right? You talk to a person, you have this conversation about their books, what they have going on in their life, and then a year goes by and another year, whatever, and then you. You meet back up in this format and you have all sorts of new things. It's just really incredible. It's inspiring. It's like a reminder to grow and, you know, to keep pushing forward. So since we talked last, you had a phenomenal kids book come out. And I want to say, I would be honest if I did. I wouldn't say probably I didn't like it, you know, but I'm like, I'm honest when I say it's a phenomenal kids book. It is charming. And, you know, kids books can be sort of across the gamut there, but it's. It's called the Big Mess, a deliciously funny story of siblings learning to get along, which is near and dear to my heart. I remember having the kids and some of the books I bought in my early years was like, how do I get these kids to get along? And I think part of the premise of childhood is to have those hard edges of rubbing up against someone else and learning how to deal with it. So you've had a kids book come out. You also started a podcast, and you have a new book coming out in October called the Body Teaches the Soul. So we're gonna be talking about this kids book here in a minute called the Big Mess.
- [01:48]
Justin Whitmill
But it's.
- [01:49]
Ginny Urch
But can you give us a little bit of background about the podcast and the book that's coming out in October?
- [01:53]
Justin Whitmill
Yeah, you've been busy working on all this stuff. So still a corporate lawyer. That's my main thing. You're seeing me in my law office right now. But I can't help but keep writing. I just love writing. And a great guy and friend approached me Last fall. His name's Brooke Moser. He works with Intentional Parenting Ministries. And he was like, you know, I got an idea for a fatherhood ministry, and would you consider starting a podcast with me? And I was like, if you do all the work and I just come talk. Great. And so we did, and it's called the Intentional Fatherhood Podcast. And it's. It's about everything. Fatherhood. We're just trying to come at it from a father perspective, because so much of my audience on Instagram and readership is moms, which I love. Like, it's so great. And I'm so honored, honestly, that moms are willing to tune in and listen to me. But I've long wanted to also, just to be talking to the dads as well. And so the Intentional Fatherhood Podcast is really specifically for that. It's for anybody who wants to listen, men and women. But we're really trying to talk directly to the dads. And one of the things we're talking about, amongst many others, are Physical and Spiritual Rhythms for Health, which is my next book coming out this fall. So I know we probably won't get deep into that because that's actually still being written a little bit, but it is coming out in October of 2025. So depending on when you're listening to this, it might already be out, but that's going to be a book that dives into what I have come to realize is the very blended, holistic world of spiritual and physical health. And the idea is that your spirituality changes your physicality, and your physicality changes your spirituality. So let's not separate them. Let's look at holistic health. And it goes through physical and spiritual disciplines and shows how they're intertwined and how you should be enjoying them both alongside each other.
- [03:43]
Ginny Urch
Ah, so good.
- [03:44]
Justin Whitmill
Called the. Called the Body Teaches the Soul. I probably should have said that the Body Teaches the Soul.
- [03:48]
Ginny Urch
It's good to know the title. Yes, for sure. But, you know, this will definitely come out before that book comes out. So pre orders, I say this. Pre orders really help authors, and they make sure that you get the book. So if you're interested in that. The mom's piece is really interesting to me, Justin. Ours is similar, but. And surprisingly so. For example, we are big fans of this guy named John Acuff.
- [04:08]
Justin Whitmill
Yeah, I love John.
- [04:10]
Ginny Urch
And he writes books about business and family, and, I mean, he's so inspirational. And we have the same publisher, and they say similar things like, you'd be surprised how many women buy his books. And So I don't know, it's almost like we're in a day and age where our decisions matter a lot for the wellbeing of our family and for the wellbeing of our kids and for their future. And there's also a lot of cultural pressure to sway things certain directions. And I think it's interesting that there are a lot of women in the space of sort of that, you know, like, that women would be reading your books and. But like, we need both, even for us, if we do talk about that. We did this tour recently, earlier this year, we went on tour and we reached out to this tour company, Josh did, to see if we could work with them and they could kind of do all the logistics. And none of the men had heard of 1000 hours outside zero. They were like, never heard of this. Wow. When they asked her on the office, every single woman had. So that's obviously a problem on our end to a degree. It's like, well, we're missing half the population. But also, is there some. It's like, this is gonna make me sound really stupid, but I'm gonna say it anyways. Is it. Is it something like. Well, you know, there are a lot of things that sort of grab the attention of men, like sports and so then there's just like, women are maybe a little bit more naturally, like, I wanna make sure my kids are okay. I wanna think through this. I wanna.
- [05:33]
Justin Whitmill
Yes.
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Ginny Urch
But then for the men, there's more distractions or something else that still takes up there. I don't know. Help me.
- [05:39]
Justin Whitmill
I would say a big I don't know. But I will say I'll frame the positive that I do know very positively. Moms pay attention to the health of their family, and it's such a wonderful thing. I mean, they are biologically wired. They are socially in it. And often depending on the parenting situation, particularly in the younger years, I mean, they're just closer to it. So I would just say say it to their credit, like, you know, moms are on the lookout. I think of my wife Lauren. Right. We, you know, try to, in theory, equally bear every burden and co parent in all these wonderful ways. But there's a sense of our children's health that she is just so attuned to. I. I can't explain why she gets it more. She intuits it more. And thus she goes and reads and researches. And I would definitely think there's probably all these books or social media accounts where I'm like, oh, I haven't heard of that. And Lauren's like, oh, I've been listening to that for years, you know, and so I don't know exactly why, but I would say it's to the praise of moms that they read, they listen. And I only want to get to the dads because I think so often I hear from the moms who say, I wish my husband, you know, would think. And, you know, hopefully it's not a bad thing. But they're all saying, I wish my husband would, you know, listen to this. And so we wanted to present a resource that's, like, very tailored to them, so it feels like this is what they're supposed to listen to. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, I don't know why. I just know that moms are great, and I love that they care so much about their families and go read and listen to every resource. Ah.
- [07:09]
Ginny Urch
I mean, I. You know, it's interesting when you bring that up, because I speak around the country and, like, I have never in my life had a dad come up and say, I tell my wife about all these podcast episodes. You know, it's always the other way around. And they come up and they say, you know, oh, yeah. And the woman says, I listen, and I have my husband listen. I have my husband listen. Listen to this one. And so it's just an interesting, I guess, dynamic in the world. I think we. It's like we need both.
- [07:35]
Justin Whitmill
We do need both. We do need both. And men, you know, and I'll say to any guys listening or to women listening who want to pass this on to their spouse, you know, guys need to be readers, and they need to be listeners. I think I'll speaking from my own vocation, you know, I am a corporate lawyer and also and author, so a lot of my life is tied up in my work. But if I'm not reading something for pleasure or if I'm not reading something for that realm outside my professional life, my life gets really weird really quickly. And reading a great book, listening to a great podcast is one of the most healthy things that you're going to be doing for your kids, your wife, your family, your whole balanced life. Um, and my wife would add to this, and I would agree, reading two kids, which is one of the reasons I really wanted to write a kids book. I mean, reading two children is such a wonderful thing for them and for your relationship. I mean, there's so much that happens in families who read to their kids, particularly when dads read to their kids as well.
- [08:38]
Ginny Urch
It's a big deal. More so than it was because I just feel like there's so many cultural pressures and you have to really consider what type of a family you want to have. And in order to do that, you grasp these other ideas that other people have already put out there and thought through and then you work through in your mind, like you talk about the habits of the household, like, you know, you talk about the liturgies, they give you different ideas. And then you're like, I could try that. You know, how might this incorporate into my family? People ask me often, how do you read so much? And now I read for work, which is an incredible thing. Austin Kleon says I'm a professional reader, like about himself. I was like, I was, I was what I'm going to say too.
- [09:13]
Justin Whitmill
I love that.
- [09:14]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, but you know, I read for work, but before I did that, I had always found if you could read three chapters a day. Now listen, I'm not talking to the mom that's got a two week old, you know, or even a two year old, but once you're out of that stage where you're with them constantly and always making sure that they're not getting hurt. If you could get three chapters in a day, that's a book every three days or four days.
- [09:33]
Justin Whitmill
Amazing. That's a great point.
- [09:34]
Ginny Urch
You know, if you could read one chapter a day, you're reading a book every week and a half. Every single week and a half you've got a book. So it's really. If you can put that at top of mind, I only am here because of the books I've read.
- [09:48]
Justin Whitmill
Oh, say that again. That's so good.
- [09:50]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, that's it. I would not be here without them because I can, and I could trace back, I could say, I remember when I read in the John Holt book that he said kids have to see real world skills and adults completing tasks. That's why I wrote my first book. I didn't want to write a book. You're a writer. I'm a math teacher. I'm like, I didn't really want to do that, but I wanted to model to my kids. Well, that kicked off, you know, this direction and that direction. And so you never know what the idea is going to be. And it might just be a paragraph or a sentence or, or whatever. It gives your mind something to think about. It gives you things to talk about.
- [10:24]
Justin Whitmill
Well, as you know, I'm so into habits in the household. I'm so into the things that we can say make make the ordinary extraordinary by putting it on repeat. What does that reading habit look like for you?
- [10:37]
Ginny Urch
So I am. Well, now I have books with me wherever I go, and I read a lot. But that has been my baseline floor for a long time. Long before I had a podcast is can I. And people, you know, they'll say, well, chapters are different lengths. I'm like, okay, approximate, you know, if. If you know, a chapter is approximately 10 to 12 pages, you know, or can you read 25 to 30 pages, scale up or scale down, depending on what stage of life you're in. But basically, can you read every day? You know, most days of the year, if you can read, you're getting in. I mean, you're getting in a lot of books. And what that does is it gives your brain. I think we, you know, we can tend toward depression and anxiety with all the screen information. It gives your brain something to chew on. You know, I thought of this, you know, or what if I tried that? And it gives you something to talk about, you know, especially in a day and age where there's like, you know, social skills are, you know, and relationships or lonely. So it gives you conversation topics, and then you implement. You try. You try the liturgy, you know, like, how did that work for my family? I really like that, you know, you try this habit or that different thing, and you get convicted.
- [11:45]
Justin Whitmill
Yes, I completely agree. I. I love that idea that the. That books make you. I think that is absolutely true. I am the books that I've read, and in a lot of senses, and for me right now, what it looks like is like this morning, I just wake up a little bit earlier than the rest of the family. It's not a lot, maybe 20 or 30 minutes. And those are my 20, 30 minutes of. Of reading time. And it was one chapter this morning. It's something I try to do every day now, as a lawyer and an author, I also read a lot for other things, you know, but that's my personal reading. And then I also think I try to write something every day. Journaling is such a healthy practice for your mental health, even if it's as small as the end of the day. I do keep a little diary of. It takes three minutes or less of what I did that day. And then reading to my kids is another thing. Lauren does the vast majority of this, but maybe, you know, once or a couple times a week, sitting down to read them some book. It's so significant for family culture to pass on the love of books, the habit of seeing each other read. I always try to do my reading In a place where my kids will see me, even though I kind of rather be hidden in an office where I can concentrate. I like to see when they come down the stairs and find me reading in the morning. I think that's a significant way of teaching them, I guess. But reading them books and to show that this is, and it really is, it's so easy. Reading them books is one of the ways you just bond and unfold and share heroes and stories and hopes and ideas, common language. I mean creating a canon of what you love. And my wife Lauren is the like the person on this. She, she keeps this thing called Lauren's lists. You can find them on my social media and her social media of great books you should read, great movies you should be watching. But that idea of having a family culture, a family canon of what you read, start small just by reading them, you know, children's books.
- [13:37]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [13:38]
C
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- [15:04]
Ginny Urch
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- [16:02]
Ginny Urch
I just interviewed Dr. Nicholas Carderis. He's one of my favorite people in the world. He talks about addiction. Screen addiction in particular is really his speciality. And so obviously there's a lot of screen addiction. And in this conversation we were talking about this statistic that the average American spends 2, 257 hours a month on a screen.
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Justin Whitmill
That's astonishing. I can't. I thought you were going to say a year when you said that.
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Ginny Urch
A month. 257 hours a month. You know how long it takes to read an average book?
- [16:34]
Justin Whitmill
It's got to be something more like twenty hours, maybe ten.
- [16:36]
Ginny Urch
It's six. It's six hours.
- [16:39]
Justin Whitmill
That's libraries, libraries and libraries of reading.
- [16:41]
Ginny Urch
It's forty books a month. Yeah, forty a month. I mean I, last year I read one hundred and fifty books and that seemed extreme. I'm like, but that is pretty good, Jenny. I'm impressed. Yeah, but, but really, if you know this 257 hours that's going towards screens, if it went toward reading, is approximately 40 books every month.
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Justin Whitmill
Yeah.
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Ginny Urch
Anyway, just kind of wild. It just gives you the perspective that look, you know, 20 to 30 minutes a day goes such a long way to changing your life.
- [17:09]
Justin Whitmill
Such a. And I would just, I would encourage anybody listening because I think at first you think, oh, this is gonna be hard. Your brain, body and emotional health is gonna be so much happier for substituting reading for your phone time. Even if you just did a little bit of it, you know, even if you just like take, okay, I'm on my phone X hours a day. Let me just spend one of those actually reading. Oh my gosh. The rewards for your intellect, your emotional health, your concentration. Enough said. Reading is wonderful.
- [17:37]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. It's gonna change. It changes your life. I think that you can trace it back. I can trace back my whole path to different books and say, this is when this changed. This is when that changed. So talking about books, you came up with the kids book and it is. I mean, it is delightful. It's called the Big Mess, a deliciously funny story of siblings learning to get along. And it really has such a great message, even for me, because I was thinking, you know, I've really. For all of us, it's like relationships are messy. It's. It's such an incredible like, to. The premise of the book is like, you know, you got one sibling that's making things, making a cake, making a whatever, and then the other siblings messing it up. And this is just like the story of life.
- [18:15]
Justin Whitmill
This is a family dynamic. This happens.
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Ginny Urch
Yeah. And just in life too, right? Isn't it in life too? It's like, oh, yeah, people mess up your stuff.
- [18:25]
Justin Whitmill
You got it. That's it. You know, I had so many readers after Habits of the Household say, I just appreciate how you kind of admit that family is messy and that the grace and goodness of life happens amidst the mess of life. And I agree, it was a stated goal of the book was to be honest. And I thought, is there a way we could just talk to kids about this? And because of reading in families, when you talk to kids, you're talking to the parents over their shoulders. And so I really wanted another way to talk to parents about how beauty and reconciliation and really just relationship happen amidst the mess. And so that is the big mess. It's fun. You know, there's a good resolution at the end, but it is totally about the older brother who makes all the fantastic creations, and then the younger brother who really wants to play and help and oops, look, I knocked it all over. I'm so sorry. And now everybody's mad. And that's the story of our kids, right? You see it all the time, but it's also the story of us. It's like we had these great lives as parents. We were doing all these things, and then we thought, oh, let's add a. A child to this life. It'll be so wonderful. And then it's like, oops, wow, they messed everything up. Like, everything's off balance. And yes, it's true. And also, it's the only way to the good whole beautiful life, like, go through the mess, which is children. They're a mess, and they're a beautiful mess. It's the big mess.
- [19:50]
Ginny Urch
The big mess. I mean, even reading to children is a mess. I mean, if I were to be honest, I was like, it's constant. Like, the kids are kicking each other. Oh, yeah. Our reading time is not, like, idyllic. Oh, yeah.
- [20:02]
Justin Whitmill
You know, it's so funny. It's so true. This is true with my children. Particularly true with the four boys that are my children. Because, you know, they're, they're active readers. And I mean that in lots of senses. Right. And so I was thinking as I read the Big Mess, you know, there's gotta be ways to keep kids involved and have a place to put their wiggles. So one of the things that I did in this book was, and I got this from Richard Scarry, right? If you've ever read some of his books, he hides gold bug on every page in some of his books.
- [20:33]
Ginny Urch
I love that.
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Justin Whitmill
So we did a little roly poly that's hidden on the front cover and then on every single page. And so I love, when I go into classrooms and read this book, they're like, you know, we're at 20, 30 minutes. So, you know, you can, you can, you know, read two or three books. I'm like, oh, no, this is going to take 15, 20 minutes. Because there are so many interruptions of. I see roly poly on this page. And then another kid wants to say, I want. I found a verse. And it. So the book actually allows for you to sort of stop on every page and examine the pictures. Which, by the way, Janna Mattia, who's the illustrator, just did such a great job.
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Ginny Urch
I mean, yes, they are. Yeah, they're so imaginative, like the like. Because like you said, it's this. They're making these different things, right? The older brothers making the thing. So this is an example where the mouse is making a banana cream pie so that it's really fun. The rhyming is really good too. You know, some book nail it and some books don't. And I, I tend to like a good. A book with a good rhyme because it makes it easier to read.
- [21:33]
Justin Whitmill
Yes. All right, I have a lot to say here. First, first about the pictures, but I'm coming back to rhyme. A lot of my inspiration was books that I loved as a child were all often about larger than life food. Like, I loved Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. I loved Jamberry. I loved this, this wonderful little book that's hard to find now. The Giant Jam Sandwich, the Little Mouse and the Big Red Strawberry. These books where there's just huge food. And I remember as a kid thinking, oh, what a magical world. If only there was a piece of cake that big, you know. And so one of the things that I wanted to do in this book was say, you know, we're dealing with the conflict dynamic and the mess. But what if big brother Mouse, who's the protagonist in this book, makes giant dessert creations? And so I was talking to Illustrator, and I'm like, I can't describe how big these are supposed to be. Like, they need to take up the whole room. Like, the cake needs to touch the ceiling, you know, and then we're getting bigger throughout the book. So, like, we're going to the yard now to build a giant banana cream pie and think scaffolding and cranes, and now helicopters need to come in. And she just did a tremendous job with that. It's so fun. So I love the illustrations. And, you know, kids are meant to hold this book and just be like, I want a cake that big. You know, kid. Turns out kids like dessert, so it's. It captivates. But, yes, the rhyme, Ginny. So this is important to me. So I happen to also be a drummer and an English major. Okay. So I learned.
- [23:01]
Ginny Urch
Of course you are.
- [23:02]
Justin Whitmill
All right. So I learned iambic pentameter. I learned rhyme schemes, and I have a sense of rhythm. So when I. Not trying to brag here, just trying to be honest. When I read a book that doesn't rhyme right, it drives me insane. Insane. I'm like, why did you just break the meter? We were doing this meter, and then you changed it. Unless it's like, brilliant, unpredictable meter. Think the big red barn or goodnight moon, where you're like, oh, that's weird. And it's so captivating. It's like, spell, like, meter. But anyway, this is supposed to be very rhymey, very bouncy, almost sing songy in a way that the kids will, after the second or third read, start to intuit and finish your sentences for you.
- [23:44]
Ginny Urch
Yes. And that's what you want because you're tired.
- [23:46]
Justin Whitmill
Yes. Which I love. But it's funny. I really had to fight for it. Oh, I tried. And maybe this can be an encouragement to anybody out there who has a creative project. I tried for four years to get somebody to publish this little story. Four years. It was so hard. And then I had. I had people in the middle who said, you know, I like the concept, but rhyming is not in. We don't really do that anymore. And I'm like, all right, look, I'm trying to write a classic here. I don't. I'm not trying to write, like, an. I don't know anything.
- [24:23]
Ginny Urch
It's like, of course, like, you think about, like, fashion. Like, that's not anymore. Anymore. People wear these kind of jeans.
- [24:28]
Justin Whitmill
It's like, not that season Colors right.
- [24:30]
Ginny Urch
Now, rhyming isn't in like, have you talked to children? They still like it.
- [24:37]
Justin Whitmill
Yeah. So fortunately, I found somebody that would let me do it and would let me do it and rhyme. And I'm delighted to be on the other side of that. But I would just say that as hopefully an encouragement to anybody. It really was a project, a labor of love. My third son, Colter. All my sons, fortunately, love this story. I would tell them it all the time. And that's how it kind of became in ideas for a children's book. But my third son, Colter, is kept saying, hey, Papa, aren't you trying to get somebody to draw pictures for your book? And I'm like, yeah, I am taking a long time for four years. I mean, I think from three to seven, he would ask me every month. And then finally when I got it under contract, he would start asking every week. And so this book is, if you read the. The dedication, it's dedicated to him because he asked so many days, Are the pictures ready yet? And it was a really, really beautiful day when I brought home the pictures to him and I said, they're ready. And he pored over them and fortunately he approved. So this is a shout out to Coulter, who kept asking for this book, and finally it's here.
- [25:43]
Ginny Urch
That's such an interesting thing. I actually would have assumed, and I honestly, I did assume often with book contracts, I guess, at least with a few people I know that have done book contracts, that they'll, you know, you'll have a book contract and then they'll throw in a kid's book. So it's like, okay, you're gonna write this book, but we'd do two this with a kid's book. So I think since you already were an author, I just assumed this was just like an add on to a contract. But how interesting.
- [26:10]
Justin Whitmill
Yeah, no, quite the opposite. Because publishers approached me numerous times asking if I would write a kid's book about habits, like healthy habits. And my response was like, if I could figure out how to make that a great book, I will. That sounds really boring for kids. I don't think they're gonna like that. Like, I'm just not in. And Lauren and I are like on a vendetta campaign against over messagy kids books. So there's a reason this book doesn't really give you a strong moral. I mean, there's a little bit in the last sentence, but what there really is is in the author's note at the end, which is written to Parents to say, hey, here's some ways to talk to your kids about this story, which, by the way, is the art of life and reading with children and each other. To say, what did you think about this story? You know, beyond like, did you like the movie or did you like the book? What did you think about that character's decision? What ought they have done, and why did this happen this way? So the author's note at the end of the book is intended to help parents actually engage with their kids on the book. Because I'm a big fan of talk about what you read. You know, don't just read. But that's different than sort of presenting the moral on every page, which is not. I'm not saying that's terrible. I'm just saying they're often not the best kids books. So I kept saying, you know, I want to write a kids book, actually. But it's about this fun idea of two, you know, mouse characters making and smashing desserts. And they're like, well, that's not really about healthy habits. And that's the stuff that you actually write about. And I was like, yeah, but I think kids will like it. As it turns out, they do, which is great. Both the sales. I'm thankful and grateful for that. And the reports back from parents that are like, my kids keep. I get this over and over, and I love it. My kids keep bringing it to me and saying, read it again. And I'm like, there is no greater compliment. Right. I really don't care what the parents think. I want the kids to grab it and say, read it again.
- [28:11]
Ginny Urch
That's a huge deal.
- [28:12]
Justin Whitmill
Yeah. And I'm seeing a lot of that, which is just a.
- [28:15]
Ginny Urch
That's a huge deal. To be that book. To be that book. I went, okay, I'm nervous because you're the drummer. Josh is a drummer, too.
- [28:21]
Justin Whitmill
I forgot that, Jenny.
- [28:22]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, I know.
- [28:23]
Justin Whitmill
Josh is a drummer.
- [28:24]
Ginny Urch
He's the best drummer I've ever heard, actually.
- [28:26]
Justin Whitmill
Hey, by the way, you mentioned John Acuff.
- [28:28]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [28:29]
Justin Whitmill
A while back. And the podcast we mentioned a while back. And I just want to say there was a night where I finally got to hang out with Josh. Okay. In person. And John was also there, and Brooke, who I eventually did a podcast, was there, and this was a. This was a magical night because not only did I meet John and Josh for the first time, it's also where I met Brooke, and we ended up doing a podcast together. So.
- [28:52]
Ginny Urch
So basically, John and Josh missed their opportunity.
- [28:55]
Justin Whitmill
No, I had great conversation with them, too.
- [28:59]
Ginny Urch
That's incredible. What a cool thing. Josh talks so often about how the smallest touch points in person can make such a difference long term. He's talked about that for years. Used to be in sales and he was like, you know, you have lunch with someone at a conference and, you know, you don't see him for four more years. But you, You' read that one touch point in person. And I interviewed with this man named Neil Pastricha, who has actually, you would think this is a really cool podcast. It's called Three Books. And the premise of the podcast is he interviews people that are a lot more famous than I am, but I got to be on it. Of the three most formative books in their life. It's really incredible.
- [29:35]
Justin Whitmill
That's so fun. I love that.
- [29:37]
Ginny Urch
So he's got that. And I went to go interview with him. He's in Toronto. And.
- [29:41]
Justin Whitmill
And you did it in person?
- [29:43]
Ginny Urch
We did it in person and we went on a walk. We had the microphones and we walked and it was interesting. And that's what he said. He said, look, you know, I can't always do them in person. I try to, but when I do them in person, I leave with a friend.
- [29:58]
Justin Whitmill
I could not agree more. And by the way, if I'm ever in your area, I'm going to be like, hey, we should do another one in person now. But it's true. The podcasts that have really changed and, and Brooke insisted on this as we. We're doing the Intentional Fatherhood podcast. We, we. I was like, yeah, you know, we'll just, we'll call in, we'll do some zooms together. He's like, no, you're gonna fly to the west coast. Because he lives in Oregon, I live in Richmond, Virginia. Which is part of, I think the, the helpfulness. There's just a, there's a coast to coast difference. And so we kind of have like an east coast, west coast.
- [30:31]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [30:32]
Justin Whitmill
Perspective on family. But we, I flew out there and we spent three days in a cabin together recording a season. And what you said is so true. You don't just leave with an episode, you leave with a friend. And friends make great episodes. You know, they. When you're really. And that's in person, you can't do that. Cannot do it the same virtually. Which is. Yeah, there's a teaser here. The Body Teaches the Soul. The book that I mentioned earlier is all about that, fundamentally that, that bodies and embodiment change everything about life and that you can't understand your relationships, you can't Understand your spirituality. You can't understand your mental health outside of really, really paying attention to your embodiment because you were made this way on purpose. Is my claim so matters for podcasts. It matters for spiritual, physical disciplines. The body teaches the soul in so many respects.
- [31:24]
Ginny Urch
I can't wait to read it.
- [31:26]
Justin Whitmill
Close your eyes.
- [31:27]
D
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- [31:42]
Ginny Urch
And breathe.
- [31:43]
D
Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.
- [31:50]
Ginny Urch
Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.
- [31:54]
Justin Whitmill
1-800-Contacts.
- [31:57]
D
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- [32:57]
Ginny Urch
Okay, I want to read a couple pages of this book because it is delightful and it is amusing that, like, you talked about the illustrations. So, okay, I'm going to read. I'm going to read it.
- [33:08]
Justin Whitmill
I'm very excited to hear somebody else read it.
- [33:10]
Ginny Urch
If I do not have good pentameter to monitor, then you're going to have to take over.
- [33:17]
Justin Whitmill
No, it's going to be my fault because I told Lauren I had so many readers read this out loud to me because I was like, it doesn't matter if I think it sounds this way. I need to hear how people actually read it. And so I'm excited for however you do read it. No pressure now.
- [33:30]
Ginny Urch
All right? I know. I feel super nervous. It's like when you cook for a chef. Yes. Have you ever had that.
- [33:34]
Justin Whitmill
Yeah, I'm. I'm doing it this weekend, actually.
- [33:36]
Ginny Urch
Like, we've had a couple of times where someone's coming over for dinner, then you're like, darn, I shouldn't have invited them over.
- [33:42]
Justin Whitmill
Lauren. Lauren has to cook for one of the best chefs in Richmond this weekend, actually. And she's like, I'm so nervous. I'm like, you're going to do great.
- [33:48]
Ginny Urch
Bless her.
- [33:49]
Justin Whitmill
Her.
- [33:49]
Ginny Urch
Bless her. Yeah, it's a big deal. But you know what, what an. What a treat for the chef to get invited, because I actually think that some people wouldn't, like, I can't do it. All right, here we go. Outside in the yard, away from young moose, Mouse worked with a gleam in his eye. His next baking feat would be a real treat. A giant banana cream pie. He focused and fussed, then filled up the crust with extra bananas and cream, when out of the blue, he heard something new.
- [34:17]
Justin Whitmill
A roar and a scream.
- [34:19]
Ginny Urch
Yes, yes. And it's so like, everybody relates to doing some sort of masterpiece. And here comes the toddler, or, you know, here, whatever. And so the picture, I just love it so much. I can see how a kid would be like, read it again and again. Look how messy my life is. My camera just moved. Okay, so, all right, so what you.
- [34:38]
Justin Whitmill
Say, wait, by the way, you did great. That is exactly how I would have read it.
- [34:42]
Ginny Urch
Yay.
- [34:42]
Justin Whitmill
Felt the bounce in it. So, yeah.
- [34:44]
Ginny Urch
Okay. Okay, good. So the banana is being lowered in, like you said, by a crane. And then in the background, you see, you see the moose coming on, and that is like, you know, and people talk about. I love this part. You know, people talk about if they have more than one kid, they often are like, well, these kids came out completely opposite. And I think in a lot of families, you're like, you got the one maybe that's a little bit more compliant, you know, that you got the mouse.
- [35:11]
Justin Whitmill
Exactly, exactly. I've had so many parents send me videos or post them on social media of them, you know, talking to their kids about the book. And they'll ask the kids, like, who's mouse in the. You know, who's the mouse in this family? And everybody points at one kid who's like the creator, more obedient, more compliant, organized. And then they'll grin and they'll say, and who's moose? And everybody will point. It's usually some round, you know, rosy cheeked toddler who just looks like, oh, yeah, that kid is about to wreck everybody, wreck everything. So many families kind of know, you know, here are stereotypes. And so the book is trying to playfully lean into that and say that in the end, they actually need each other and they can get along. But I do love that the. I do love that most families can point out who's their mouse and who's their moose.
- [36:01]
Ginny Urch
Yes, yes. And it just. It like the depiction, the way that she did the illustrations. So, like, here comes the moose, and he's so happy, you know, like, happy. Yeah.
- [36:12]
Justin Whitmill
You know, it's funny. Editors at the. On the first couple reads of it, they were like, you know, we really like this, but we got to make sure that Moose is not, like, maniacally evil, just ruining all his brother's creations. I'm like, no, no, no, no. This is an accident. Like, everyone. Moose is just, like, happily. Yeah.
- [36:27]
Ginny Urch
Loving life.
- [36:28]
Justin Whitmill
He's just doing his thing. And it turns out his things are pogo sticks. And Oopsie fell over. Go Karts. And Oopsie ran into the pie. And then, you know, it's. The whole point is it's supposed to get more and more extreme, because the part of the climax of the book is like, Moose is flying a plane and somehow wrecks the third dessert. And the kids are like, how did he get a plane? And I'm like, I know. How did he get a plane? And that's part. You know, I mentioned the joy of reading to children. I feel like I get the extra joy when I get to. I go read it. You know, classrooms or, you know, maybe a group of children read this book and teachers and get this joy on the daily. But it's so fun to read to a giant group of kids. And one of my favorite things is, you know, I'll pause on that page and say, do you see. Do you see Moose coming? And they're like, wait, what? And they look up in that corner, and they're like, oh, my gosh.
- [37:19]
Ginny Urch
And then so good.
- [37:20]
Justin Whitmill
And then they're like, you know, how did he get a plane? And we just put the book down. I'm like, I don't know. How would you. Like, how would you get a plane? You know? And you could just imagine. This is the greatness of stories, right? They are. They're magical. They're imaginative. They invite you into a world that's larger than life. And I think it's part of my deep conviction here that the world as it actually is, is larger than life. It is larger than what we experience. And this is part of the great tradition of books, is that they draw your imagination upward, which is more into reality. Like, you know, people often ask me, like, why do you love fiction and poetry? You know, it's not real. And I'm like, oh. I mean, it didn't really happen, but it's realer than real. You know, there's so much truth to it. So, you know, I just love the fantastic. And kids are. Kids are amazed at it. You know, kids are amazed by big things, and we need that.
- [38:13]
Ginny Urch
It is a delightful book. It draws you in. I'm going to read this one. Next page. Mouse jumped with a start. It was Moose's go kart. That baby drove straight toward his pie. And you should have seen the explosion of cream and bananas that flew through the sky. I mean, this is just fun and okay. Of course. A banana cream pie is amazing. You crazy, Moose. Just look at this mess. You smashed up my prize winning pie. Please leave me alone. You're accident prone. He stormed out and shouted goodbye. It's really compelling because it's so parallel to life. People that mess up our stuff and we're like, you know, get out of here. You messed up all my thing. And you talk about how there's not really a stated, you know, I guess, moral or lesson, but I felt like even just through the illustrations, I mean, once you get to the end, the whole family is just roaring with laughter.
- [38:58]
Justin Whitmill
Yes.
- [38:59]
Ginny Urch
I mean, so that is it. Like, look like, you know, it's okay.
- [39:02]
Justin Whitmill
You gotta feel they're happy in a messy living room. That's the.
- [39:06]
Ginny Urch
Yes. I mean, they are. There's food everywhere and they're laughing. Like the roll on the floor, kind of like grabbing my stomach, laughing. And you're like, well, this is the point. This is the point that we're a family. It's messy, but how fun is that?
- [39:21]
Justin Whitmill
Amen. I mean, and to be clear on the moral thing, I just really. Morals should come from within, not without a story. Right. So when you get to it, you understand intuitively rather than saying from the outside.
- [39:35]
Ginny Urch
Yes. And that's like, what happens? Like, oh, they're so happy. Oh, isn't it great that they have a brother? That's what you get at the end of it. You're like, well, wouldn't it be, you know, it would be so different. And then. And then they start to work together. It's like, okay, so Mouse, you know, realizes that Moose is going to run some stuff over. It's on accident. But you at the end. Ever since then, with Moose by his side, Mouse made things his brother could crash. Huge towers of pie or cakes piled up High. Each one met its end with a smash. And in good time. And in good time the young moose would find. Sorry. All right. And in good time the young. The young mouse. Okay, here we go. And in good time the young mouse would find. This made them the closest of brothers. His great realization was that his creations or best when shared with others.
- [40:28]
Justin Whitmill
Lovely. The like.
- [40:29]
Ginny Urch
So good.
- [40:31]
Justin Whitmill
So good.
- [40:33]
Ginny Urch
It's so interesting to me that this was not just an add on book. Huge shout out to Zonderkids for publishing this. It's fantastic.
- [40:40]
Justin Whitmill
Oh, thank you.
- [40:41]
Ginny Urch
My favorite books are the Gruffalo. I like Room on the Broom.
- [40:45]
Justin Whitmill
Love those. Great rhyme. Great rhyme in those.
- [40:48]
Ginny Urch
Yes. My all time favorite kids book is Seven Silly Eaters. There is not a book that I like more than Seven Silly Eaters and it's all rhyme.
- [40:56]
Justin Whitmill
That's one of the ones that on like the food list for me, you know, it's such a fun food book. I never read it until Lauren read it to our children though. I didn't, I didn't encounter that book as a child, but as an adult and it is on our top list.
- [41:10]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, same for me as an adult. And the illustrations are phenomenal. And it's such a precious story, you know, about an exhausted mom. And it's so well written. And so yours is just like the. It lands in my pile of, you know, four or five favorite kids books and all of them have the pentameter because I. To me, first of all, it helps you to remember it. But I do feel that often you're very tired when you go to read to your kids. And so if there's something that has like a little bit of structure that helps me read it easier and I can kind of remember it and I can. You know, I think that's a huge gift.
- [41:44]
Justin Whitmill
Oh well, it's a high honor to be named amongst those great books that you just said. So I appreciate that. I also think one, one last thing I might want to note that's just kind of fun maybe for your listeners specifically, Jenny, is I told the illustrator I don't want to see the parents in this book until the end. And there's a reason for that. You know, there's all sorts of things when you craft your own book, you know, if you're intentional, you do little things that have great meaning that someone may never realize. But a lot of this is about them figuring out how to work it out together as opposed to the parents coming in and saying, no, you need. Now you need to do this and get. Look, if Kids are bashing each other. You know, they're young. They obviously, we're helping them get along. But one of the sort of implicit morals here is like, look, these two kids are outside building a giant cookie on the roof and flying a plane. You know, they're like, they're. They're out there in the world, free range mouse and moose, free ranging, doing stuff and figuring out how to negotiate conflict and compromise. And if you look at the last scene of the book, the parents are at the edge watching. Oh, my gosh, look at them doing this big project. And then they're in the very last page laughing as the family resolves. But they're not guiding it, which is just a little bit of a nod to the idea of let your kids get out there. Let them learn. Obviously, we need to teach them and shepherd them and help them. This is nothing against that. But we struggle so much in our modern moment with just letting them go learn on their own, which is one of the fundamental ways our children learn to get along. And I often tell my parents that I'm talking to is like, if you hear a conflict in the other room, just give it another second. You probably. You need to go into help, but just give it a second. And often I go into my boys and I say, hey, I'm going to come back in two minutes, and I want to hear the resolution you came up with. Okay? And if it's not fair, then I will adjudicate it against the oldest because he's the one who, like, made it unfair, you know? But I'm going to let you keep doing this if you come up with a fair resolution. And I just am really into letting kids figure out the hard lessons of the world on their own and being a, you know, a steward of that, not a micromanager of that, because they need. They need to be out there. They need to be outside.
- [44:08]
Ginny Urch
Yep. Yeah, it does capture that. It captures the freedom of childhood. And then that last picture, it captures the joy of family, you know, and there's the mom. She's got pie. You know, she's.
- [44:19]
Justin Whitmill
She's.
- [44:20]
Ginny Urch
And the dad's laughing. And you just think, like, I. I heard someone say the other day something like, oh, they wrote a book about it. It caught my eye. It was, like, called the Relaxed Mother.
- [44:31]
Justin Whitmill
I'm sure that catches everybody's attention. Like, how do you do that?
- [44:34]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, well, what she said was, in my whole life growing up, you know, I saw hardworking mothers. I saw, you know, amazing chef mothers. I saw. She said, I never Saw a relaxed mother. And I just thought, like, even this in the. In the dad that's laughing and present and not on a phone, it's very powerful. You know, the imagery in the book is really powerful. And I. I mean, I just enjoyed it so much. So huge kudos to you for coming out with something that is so meaningful and so pertinent. I mean, this is the story of life, right? That we're dealing with messy family relationships and how do we deal with siblings. I loved it. I loved it.
- [45:15]
Justin Whitmill
You're making me so happy. And I hope all the listeners love it too. I know your kids are gonna love it, but. I know your kids are gonna love it. But the kids.
- [45:23]
Ginny Urch
But the parent, too. The best books are the ones that the parents like as well. And that's what they always say, that you enjoy reading it as well. So phenomenal. It is called the Big Mess, a deliciously funny story of siblings learning to get along. Everybody will like it. So if you're going to birthday parties and you're going, you know, you're getting ready for holidays, some people do that really early. Everybody will like it. Picture books are good for all ages. They have words that you don't normally use in conversation. Sarah McKenzie talks about that a lot. You still read to your kids out loud long after they can read to themselves. You include picture books all the way through their childhood. Even our older ones will sit and listen. They joke around. But whatever. We read the Orange for Frankie at Christmas and that everyone's involved.
- [46:02]
Justin Whitmill
It's a beautiful book.
- [46:02]
Ginny Urch
They're involved in the picture books, so. And they talk about it, they joke around about it. And so what a wonderful one to add to your collection. Justin Whitmill, early the Intentional Fatherhood podcast is out now. Brand new and lots of fantastic episodes. Also, the book the Body Teaches the Soul coming out in the fall. You can pre order your copy now. Justin, thank you so much for being here.
- [46:24]
Justin Whitmill
I'm going to love to publicize and share this episode because I don't often just get to talk as much as we did about the love of reading, the value of reading, the value of doing it with kids. That was just delightful. And by the way, you and Lauren are like, so on the same page because you named, like every children's book you name, particularly the Orange for Frankie at Christmas or Seven Silly Eaters are, like things that she loves. So anyway, we would be friends. Yeah, you will. Someday. You'll get to meet.
- [46:51]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, it'd be amazing. Well, thank you, Justin.
- [46:54]
Justin Whitmill
Thank you, Ginny.